Latest / The Brave Becoming / Render Unto Caesar: When the Church Married the State
Transcript
- Shaniqua: Hi everyone. Thank you so much for joining Abrm McQuarters: Mm. Shaniqua: us for The Brave Becoming. We're back with a new episode. my name is Shanique Risha, one of your podcast hosts, and I'll allow T to introduce herself. Tiana: And I am Tiana. Hey everybody. Shaniqua: So today we are in for a treat with our guest today, especially in this particular season that we are in. just as a little backstory, the the grave the excuse me, the brave becoming, we always want to tie this back into spiritual formation, but the current landscape, I think, in America. And what's going on can actually impact spiritual formation in a lot of different ways. And so that is what we're going to be talking about today. And I'll tell you the topic in just a moment. But before I do that, I want to introduce today's guest. his name is Abraham McQuars, and he was born in Tulsa, Oklahoma. He attended Dartmouth College, where he played football and earned a bachelor's degree in government with a specialization in international relations. During his senior year, he felt a call to ministry and served as a youth member, excuse me, youth minister while discerning that call. In 2019, he moved to Atlanta and served as a youth minister. Excuse me, in 2019, he moved to Atlanta to begin seminary at Reform Theological Seminary in 2021. He returned to Hanover, New Hampshire to serve as a pastoral resident at the church he studied and attended during college while completing his Masters of Divinity online. Abram now serves as the Partnerships and Programs Manager at the AN Campaign, where he coordinates efforts to increase civic literacy among Christians and create spaces for a productive political dialogue within faith communities. Welcome. Thank you so much for joining us today. Abrm McQuarters: Thank you, Shaniko, and thank you, Tiana. I'm super excited to be here. and looking forward to the conversation. Shaniqua: same here. So I teased a little bit about what we were going to talk about. So today's podcast title, the title of today's episode is Render Unto Caesars. And so for all of you people who know your word in the Bible, you should know where we're coming from. Render unto Caesar. And here's the subtitle: When the Church Married the State. I'm so looking forward to this conversation. But before we do that, we always kick it off. And with this very specific question and so T, I'll turn it over to you. Tiana: Yes, so we have a signature question and that question is when did you first know God was real for yourself? Abrm McQuarters: great question. man, I can think of a few moments. I'm a church kid, born and raised in the church. My dad was like our youth pastor, assistant pastor, my mom in children's church, and we were part of like a black Baptocostal church in the north side of Tulsa, Oklahoma. So I think God was all around me and it was a very big part of my environment growing up. And so I could see sort of the effects of that. I don't know that I would have processed it that God was real for me, but I saw that he was real for other people. But I think when when God, when I one of the earliest maybe memories I have of God being real for me, was probably in high school. I was part of a youth group, and they were big on evangelism. And I I I think I started taking my faith seriously. I I've begun studying the word seriously. I'd begun praying seriously. but I think there was something to our evangelism where we would have to go into environments that previously I think I would have just made different decisions. either out of fear, either out of yeah, just a lot of different other emotions. And I think I was surprising myself how the Lord was sort of using me to speak the gospel, even as a like 14, 15, 16 year old. And it was one of the first times I was like, that wasn't me at work there. That wasn't me answering those questions or even interacting with people in that kind. Wasn't it wasn't a strategy. It was like the Lord really in real time was carrying me through some of those evangelistic conversations. And so that sticks out as s one of the first times I feel like God was. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. When God has a call on your life, He will He will help you fulfill that call. Abrm McQuarters: Amen. Tiana: Amen. So we learned that you felt a call to ministry your senior year at Dartmouth. And then you went to seminary at RTS. And I was just telling Shaaniqua before we started that I considered going to seminary school there. I'm still deciding, so I'll come back to that. Abrm McQuarters: Okay. Okay. Let's talk. Let's talk. Yeah. Shaniqua: She might be right, she might be having another conversation with you. Tiana: So you went to seminary and then you served as a pastor resident. Now you help Christians across the country with civic engagement. So my question is, how does someone headed toward the pulpit end up working in politics? Abrm McQuarters: great question. I I think the short answer is God doesn't waste any piece of our story or our life. I remember being at Dartmouth and it's an Ivy League institution. And so all my friends were signing contracts as like to work on Wall Street or to go to law school or things of that nature. And I remember feeling this call to ministry and going, No, because I don't like I have to go do all those things. And maybe ministry could be sort of like a fun project after I make a bunch of money, kinda do the Dartmouth thing, exhaust those resources and then come back to it. but and and part of it was I couldn't see how God was gonna tie together my story because I was in sports, I studied government, but and and I was a church kid and things of that nature. But what was God gonna do with that in ways that I felt were this upward trajectory of what I thought my life was at the time. And part of it was just obedience, meaning that One, the Lord had to sort of usher me into that and maybe not kicking and screaming, but with some like, Hey, I'm gonna close these doors and open these other ones really wide, so you can see with clarity how to w that you need to walk through. But I remember the Anne campaign. So I met Justin Gibbon, he's president CEO of the AN Campaign at seminary. And it was one of the first times that I had heard someone articulate how the gospel worldview and how political worldviews wrestled with one another, but how the gospel spoke to them in the most cohesive and in the most hopeful way. And so I remember having a conversation with Justin about the and campaign in my first seminary class. So it was it it felt very providential that the Lord would connect me to this organization as I was trying to figure out how to be joyfully obedient in my call to ministry, if that makes sense. And that didn't immediately materialize in a job or anything like that. I would volunteer for for the AN Campaign, but I still kept trekking along my studies in the ministry. And so how it all kind of comes back together is again, God doesn't waste any part of my story. That I kept growing in my theological studies. I kept growing in my pastoral just giftings and work and things of that nature. And I think the work that we do at the AN Campaign is not just information. It really is pastoral. It's shepherding. It's equipping the church How to navigate this intersection of faith, politics, and culture. And you don't do that by just talking at the church or shouting at people or even critiquing people. That does have to be this holistic gospel approach that says the gospel both provides a critique for where we're at now, but also some real solutions to where we are now. And all of them are relational. All of them have to do with love of neighbor, love of enemy, patience, grace. Like self-critique, self-control, things of that nature. And so God used all that pastoral work and all those pastoral studies in order to contribute to a topic that I'm really passionate about, not just because for the topic's sake, but as sh as Shanequa opened up, it really does inform people's spiritual formation. And so I I I really think this is as much coming alongside pastors in their discipleship of their church. and so in that way, using a lot of those same pastoral skills. Shaniqua: So I have a I alluded to it earlier, but I'm going to read a part of the scripture. And so today's title again, the episode is Render Unto Caesar. And that was from Matthew 22 and 21. when they were trying to trap Jesus and concerning the pain, the tax into Caesar, and and Jesus says, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's and unto God the things that are God's. Jesus held up the coin and he asked, Who is this image and subs subscription? And the coin carried Caesar's image, but Genesis says we carry God's. So what belongs to Caesar, and what has never belonged to Caesar. Can you talk about that a little bit, especially within the context of the and campaign? Because you alluded to it a little bit, but that's why I wanted to tie back to scripture. Abrm McQuarters: Yeah, no, I love that scripture. It's been one that I've been thinking a lot about and speaking a little bit about. because in the Luke passage, it actually also gives us a little bit more context as far as like what's going on around Jesus and even what they hope to accomplish by asking Jesus that question. It says that the chief priests and the scribes, they ask him that so that they can catch him up in his words and deliver him over to the authorities. And he's just had a conversation about really his authority to come into the temple and turn over tables and grieve over Jerusalem in the way that that he has. And so you see the political or religious leaders trading the authority of God, even as they're talking in the temple for the authority of man. And so that's why they bring to him this coin. They go, Hey, who's should we pay or sorry, they don't bring him the coin. They just ask, should we pay taxes to Caesar or not? And And I love this move by Jesus for them to bring out the very thing that they're talking about and trying to mystify to demystify it. Meaning he goes, Well, show me the coin. Like he makes it very practical and plain. And I love the picture of Jesus asking about image because you do get the fullness of the image of God holding and it in the palm of his hand the image of this person whose authority they've turned themselves over to. Does that make sense? And it's this beautiful picture of like, why would you trade it? His image fits into my hand. My image doesn't fit into his hand. and therefore, the the ability to render unto Caesar what is Caesar and render unto God's what is God, there's no conflict of competition here. There's not like two equal powers fighting for the same slice of pie. It is very clearly I am God. And so the things that I ask of you, even when they do come into conflict with what Caesar might ask of you or the ways he might ask of it from you, Your allegiance is to me. and and how you're faithful to stu like come under the authority of Caesar, I I won't ask you to do that in ways that come into conflict with my authority. And so I think to answer your question very very plainly, what belongs to God is obedience. And and I think he's very clear about that in scripture. And I think to put that even in the political context, I think Right now, people are asking how politically expedient is it to love your enemies? Or how politically expedient is it for me to critique people on my side when I know they're not also being faithful to scripture? And I think that passage Jesus is saying that's a very poor question, right? Because I'm not asking you to give me the fruit of obedience when it's politically expedient or easy for you to do, or it allows you to win elections or favor. Anytime that I ask you of the fruit of obedience, you're called to give it to me. and I think that is the the state of like our hearts and minds that we have to continually make sure that we are getting to, because if we're if we're not careful, we'll so mystify the process that what can fit in God's palm will go, man, that's the overarching authority of this world. When in the reality it's it's the opposite way around. Like God, you know, scripture talks about the the heart of the king is i is in the Lord's hand and like water he can change it. we also see through scripture so many different regimes and political tribes come and go, but what's the through line of scripture? It's the faithfulness of God to his people. And so whether that be for fear or political idolatry or whatever, people may trade giving over to God what is God's. I think scripture kind of gives us a through line to say it's never the right move to exchange. God's authority for man's authority and begin to render to man what is only belonging to God because he's he's the the one that is tod is yesterday, today and forevermore. He is the one who has all authority and power in his hands and he's the one who ultimately has what we want and need at the end of the day. So so to answer that question, I think again, trying to be practical is obedience. And you look through all the scriptures and it is, you know, whittling down the commands to love of God and love of neighbor. That working itself out in things like personal holiness, working that self out in in ways of justice, like taking care of the poor, the widow and the orphan. That working itself out in loving your spouse and loving your kids and honoring your parents. Like those things are at all times what God requires of us. And so there's never a season where we're allowed to put those things down in order for some sort of political agenda we might like. Tiana: that kind of leads to the next question. So you stated that the healthiest way to see the state is as an institution that needs the redemption of the gospel. And that when Christians treat it as a tool for power, we lose what makes us distinct. So what does that loss look like? Abrm McQuarters: It it looks it looks pretty corny. I guess Shaniqua: Ha ha Abrm McQuarters: not. Meaning when you watch non-Christians try to replicate spiritual language and spiritual practices, it just looks bad. Like you've seen people sort of pretend to worship in places where you where you know it's kind of a show and it's just it's just so off putting. It doesn't it's not infused with the gospel hope that I think spiritual practices are supposed to come with, or spiritual language, or spiritual disciplines are supposed to come with. And so it it looks like us allowing politicians, allowing social media influencers, allowing people other than the Holy Spirit and scriptures to set our worship practices and trying to replicate those in place in in spaces of worship. And so One of the things I done the dynamics in that Luke passage or that Matthew passage when they ask Jesus about the coin, it says things like they're really angry and so they're looking to give him over to the authorities. And it's talking about false flattery. Like they ask him the question, but they add a bunch of fluff and flattery to it. they sent spies to spy on him, and they're doing all this in the temple. And so what's supposed to be God's covenant people and God's covenant place looks more like the the Roman Colosseum and the Roman theater in the temple, if that makes sense. And and I think that's what happens when we give over and when we lose what makes us distinct is we begin to look like the world even in spiritual places. And I don't think that was supposed to be the case. I think God created a people unto himself to be holy, which means set apart, different, distinct. And that was supposed to go to his people and through his people and out. And when we lose the one thing again, the gospel, allegiance to Christ that makes us distinct, then it becomes the opposite, meaning the world starts to infiltrate the church and it just looks like a poor picture of what what God meant it to be. Shaniqua: question. And it's so not on our list of questions, but I I had Abrm McQuarters: good. Shaniqua: I have to ask this at this point. So b before When the church merit the state, we're looking here within the United States spiritual formation, and a lot of the things you've talked about is what our approach should be in recognizing that God is still supreme authority. Looking at the Constitution, there's supposed to be a separation of church and state. We are seeing, quite honestly, probably a little of the marrying of that, even in these days. But at the same time, in biblical terms, it it is a theocracy. but the United States is not a theocracy. So based on everything that you've just said and how you have talked about rendering to Caesar and that, can you can you just go into just a little bit more of of how that looks from a current time? Abrm McQuarters: Sure, sure. And I I think maybe the the one thing to say is what'll I think what helps us really speak clearly about this time is to connect it to the larger times, meaning like this is something God's people have always struggled with. You go Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Abrm McQuarters: all the way to work back to first Samuel chapter twelve and they go, Give us a king so we can be like the nations around us. And so we've been struggling with this for a really long time. And so it is not uniquely an American problem, but to your point there are some unique American distinctions to it, that I think are important for us to realize so that we can move with some with some wisdom and critique well and and clearly. And so yeah, I think in the in our country and in this current moment, a lot of that marriage looks like trying to co-opt again, a lot of the rhetoric and a lot of the the power that the church has as an institution. There's a lot of sort of funneling politicians through the biggest or the most profitable or the most well-known church right now so that they can kind of say sort of the political talking points but sort of dressed up in American language. And then there's also the other way around where I think of there are some pastors who are trying to structure their churches, shepherd their churches like they are political institutions when that's not the case. And so from the pulpit you'll hear a lot of political talking points, whether that's for someone or against someone And that takes up so much of the rhetoric and so much of the way that they read scripture and so much of the way that they just practice their faith that you you begin to see that their their congregations aren't so well rounded. They know how to speak well at for or against an administration, but how to love their neighbor, how to love their enemies, how to steward conflict with one another, like maintain the unity of the body of Christ. We we bec our our muscles are atrophied in that way when when that marriage happens. And so those are some of the the key things I think you see. And one of the resources we just put out is the ten signs of political idolatry that I think also get at this idea of what happens when you do when the church does marry the state or allows the state to marry the church. And it looks like people cutting off family members and friends because of political affiliations. It looks like being more concerned about if people vote and how people vote, rather than people reading their scripture and praying and just doing basic spiritual disciplines. It looks like, you know, some some of the sermons that I listen to from some churches around the country, like pe pastors will get applause, the loudest applause for their critique of the administration rather than for simple and clear gospel presentations. Meaning how how is it that the loudest amen you might get in your church is because of the ways that you're able to tear down Donald Trump. But when you say that you have been forgiven Given and redeemed and washed by the blood of Christ, people are like, that's kind of cool, right? But sort of come up with the best and brightest insult for this administration or whoever's sort of in your line of fire and people are like fired up. I think that's when we know that the church is in this improper relationship with the state, and vice versa. Meaning, like, how is it that your church is the most well attended when you do bring your favorite politician through? Or how, yeah, I I think there's just a number of And I that's still good to question, so I think maybe to be A little bit more thoughtful, I I think too of just maybe the seats that are taken in in some positions of power by pastoral leaders that aren't being thoughtful about how to actually implement policy, but are again just trying to be there to to provide spiritual language that gives that backs up whatever the administration's policies are, if that makes sense. And so there's there's a number of different things that it could look like on on either side, whether you're for or against. But I think in that in that way it's all a giving over of our authority to the state rather than living in the authority that God has for us. Tiana: so you talked about Israel, them them asking for a king, to judge us like all the nations and God said that they rejected me. why do you think that is? Like why do you think the American church started to ask for a king? Abrm McQuarters: We sh we all struggle with lordship. I think I think to your to maybe the the point of this podcast and spiritual formation, that's the fight of sanctification. It's to get better at dependency and lordship each and every day. And I I think what's interesting about this country is that, you know, as some people tell the story, it was about sort of religious liberty that sort of brought a lot of people to this country. And so for that to sort of turn around in a very quick way and and cause people to want to establish cr even Christianity as a theocracy in this country is is just kind of ironic, if that makes sense. Like I think, you know, in and a lot of people will use the rhetoric of like our founding fathers would, X, Y, and Z, or try to co sign it with a lot of people who I think if you actually did pull them up from the grave, they go, Stop it Shaniqua: Yeah. Abrm McQuarters: Please don't use our name because that was some of the things that we were fleeing and And and that's why, you know, this making that trek across the Atlantic was was one that they they chose to make. and so I just think we struggle with lordship. Like it's much easier to look at a person that has a lesser demand on us than like the steadfast love of the Lord and go, I I'll just I'll just do whatever you you'd like because I can measure that in In a few sentences or with a few checkboxes, but with the lordship of of God that takes our whole life. And I think even God's people again are struggling with looking at Jesus and going, would I rather give my life to you or to Caesar, the man who we know is intentionally occupying us and destroying our culture and destroying our way of life and putting people in our communities that are extorting us. Which one would we rather give our allegiance to? Even God's God's people have always struggled. With lordship, but it's a worthy cause to be committed to because the lordship of Christ, the burdens are always easier and the the yoke is always lighter. Shaniqua: You know, it's interesting that you mentioned allegiance. under God was added to the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954. And in God We Trust became the national model. And this is specifically speaking with within America. And I do not say the Pledge of Allegiance, not anymore, not when I became of age and the nuances of it. But I think the the interesting part of that, and this is a question for you personally, and then also generally. we always were taught that America is a Christian nation, but how has that impacted how we, you, have read the Bible and then how you think it has impacted America right now and how people are reading the Bible and again when it comes to their spiritual formation? It ties back into what you were just saying with lordship, but I think there's a little bit more that we could talk about there. Abrm McQuarters: yeah, I do I do love that question because I have to move with some humility in this conversation because I also grew up reading the American context into Scripture. And so Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Abrm McQuarters: all of all of the characters that I saw in Scripture, they they look like someone of European descent. Jesus had the long flowy brunette hair. and all of the values in scriptures or virtues in scriptures. were more culturally informed than they were spiritually informed. Meaning my definition of humility looked like a certain kind of person and not maybe like a biblical definition, but it was just because what I was reading into the text from an American context. Same thing with power and authority and all of the sovereignty, wealth, like all of the different biblical concepts, because I was reading through an American context, they did not look like what I know like I I now know them to look like because of the cultural context of that day and because of a better reading of scripture that is not so culturally constrained but allowed to be what it was. Like and so sorry what was can you remind me of the first part of your question? I was telling myself. Shaniqua: We're talking about just the pledge and the pledge of allegiance, but what you you really answered the question. The first part was what were you taught that American as a Christian nation, your views Abrm McQuarters: Mm. Huh? Shaniqua: upon that? But then the secondary, which probably actually is the more the more important part, was then how did you read the Bible? And I love how you talked about the American context. But I can personally say one of the things that I think is a huge disservice to American Christians and to those who grew up in the Western culture is that they haven't left America. you there's a totally different experience of worshiping in other countries, within my my my personal experience. And so that American context, so many of us don't realize that that American context is an overlay of within our we're reading scripture. And it's it's baked into so much of what we do that we think that what is norm Is actually a part of again a cultural context that we're not even aware of because it comes to tradition. So I think you did answer the question. Abrm McQuarters: And I'll say what's Tiana: Yeah. Abrm McQuarters: what's what's also dangerous too is that we've exported so much of that American Christianity across the world. Meaning that there were so many missionaries who took that American reading of the scripture to these other countries to now you like there are people who would would say, Well, I've been to other countries and it looks just like my church back home. That's intentional. That is the fruit of the labor that those some of those missionaries went out with implanted in different contexts. And I I too have seen that. but even one of the things that I'm I'm preaching on this Sunday is about work. And I remember I I got to live in Bolivia for a few months and there was I I I lived in some of the most impoverished communities I had ever seen. and some of the hardest working people. And and so even that that like idea of work, the idea of what profit you get from your work, because the proverbs talks about like there is toil in in all your sorry. There's profit in all your toil. But I saw this four foot nine Bolivian woman lugging a cart up a mountain to sort of sell to tourists like myself who are going on this this mountain bike ride. And and I have to when I think about work in scripture and the goodness and the wisdom of work, I can't just see the CEO sitting in his or her corner office, I also have to think about this Bolivian woman lugging a cart every single day up a mountain and going, How is work good or wise also for her? Like how is this not a lesser definition of work, but how is she also I unpacking the idea of work from Proverbs in a ways that I couldn't get because of our context here in America. And that's just one of the ways. And so I think there's there's there's some some of that, but then also not allowing scripture to speak for itself. To your point, like we hear or we see different concepts and we try to bring those to scripture and find them rather than sort of sitting with scripture and allowing it to illuminate what God is trying to show us from from scripture. I think there were a lot of people who were helpful in my walk and discipleship in order to help me to do those things. Tiana: So you served as a faith outreach director for a US sitting campaign in Georgia and and Shaniqua: He's smiling with that one. Abrm McQuarters: Those are interesting times. Tiana: you said that you watched politicians try to leverage the church for their own goals and the church was excited to let them without much accountability. So can you go into what you saw and why do you think the church was so eager to even do that? Abrm McQuarters: Yeah, yeah. I I so yes, there was a woman who was running for the US US Senate seat in the state of Georgia. And I'd actually just gotten to back to or had just gotten to Georgia, it was the twenty twenty mid term or sorry, it was during the was that a presidential election year? Yeah. But it was also UN you have two US Senate seats that now John Osoff and why am I forgetting his name? Warnock. Tiana: Why not? Why not? Mm-hmm. Abrm McQuarters: And so it was an awesop race. And so there was probably like five or six folks who were in that race. and my job getting connected through the AN Campaign was to reach out to churches and and help get this woman's name out into the community and sort of make connections with faith communities to listen to what their values were and then communicate how the campaign was going to address those. but but I think a couple of things. Num number one, we would Go to these churches, and there would be such this excitement to receive not just her as a candidate, but a lot of different candidates. And there wasn't really a communication of these are our values. It was more like a thank you for coming so that we could have this sort of political moment as our at our church. And it was very confusing and also hard as a faith outreach director to say to a candidate, here's how you might need to shape and shift things, because no one was challenging her. No one was articulating things that. that she might need to keep in mind as she moves about with her campaign. there was just like this this excitement and reception. And it was both illuminating and kind of disheartening because again, the gospel has something to say about the ways that we govern and the ways that we live. And I think it's beautiful. I think it's convicting and I think it's also hopeful. And so to see again some church services just kind of turn into another political rally. was was confusing. Because again, if if the the the church is supposed to be a space where people can walk in and be changed, why not also this politician in their platform? why not most this politician in their platform if their reach is going to extend not just to your community, but folks also that you care about? And so it was just very enlightening. And it and it wasn't just the candidate that I was supporting or working for at the time. It was all of them. Like We would there would kinda be this cohort that would kinda walk around and it was always understandably maybe a a privilege to be in the rooms and so excited to meet you and hope you do well, hope you win. But there was never a hey, here's what I hope you keep in mind as a Christian person that you are going to represent should you win this race. Shaniqua: How do you how did you handle that confusion? So, one of the reasons why I've never wanted to work for a church is because I didn't want to see the the the the behind the scenes of a church. But how did you handle that confusion? Because these are my words, everyone. This is my words. Because what I heard you say, which may not be in what you said, but this is what I heard you say, the church was okay with being pimped. And the Abrm McQuarters: Mm. Shaniqua: church was okay with fame. and and and and Being in the spotlight and putting other people in the spotlight. So for you personally seeing that, how did you handle that confusion? Abrm McQuarters: Yeah, so a lot of it was to take that upon myself if churches and church leaders were not going to do that as we put together our plan to walk into the church for it to be thoughtful and for it to be actually true and honest. And so if you if you've ever worked on campaigns, and this is I've I've not worked on many, but this is kind of how the process would work. We knew we were going to church on Sunday, so we get together on like a Thursday or Friday, maybe and sometimes Saturdays, and go, okay, what are we gonna say? There's the platform that already exists, but how are we gonna communicate that to church folks? And again, the first time I saw the process in action, there were some on the team who go, This is what you do. You go in there and go, Good morning, church. I'm blessed and highly favored. I woke up this morning. Shaniqua: The programmed in the script. Abrm McQuarters: And I was like, that I mean, and and brilliant, like I to for me, this this woman had so much more to give than just this sort of like rigor moral going through the process. Again, it looked corny. and and so I was like, I think that you can be way more thoughtful and take these people at their word, that their faith really is at the the core of who they are, and so structure your message to speak to that. But again, there was a that dynamic was not true in the churches that we were going to. That makes sense. So sh so she could get away, or we as a team could get away with the sort of like empty just like fluff rhetoric within a church and it was it was disheartening. one of the dynamics is yeah, that team kind of fell apart, the campaign kind of fell apart. We limped, you know, it kind of limped Tiana: Yeah. Abrm McQuarters: through the election season. And so not to say that that was the only reason that it did, but it's like You know, I I do think that can be a lot of political strategy isn't is just how do we message this rather than how do we listen and adapt and and make sure we're communicating with some clarity on people's values. Because again, to your point, Shaniqa, what I was learning is that the gospel wasn't the the the core value for a lot of these churches we were going into. It was influence, it was fame, it was a moment, it was an opportunity to say, look how important we are in the community. We can get a potential Georgia US senator to come and spend some time with us on a Sunday morning. That doesn't make us unique. So can elementary schools, so can conference centers, so can colleges. Like that does not make you unique in the public square. What makes the church unique is the message of the gospel, and that's I think what we have to. Shaniqua: So when the church married the state, but then also when the church was chasing after it. Abrm McQuarters: Mm-hmm. Shaniqua: Kind of sounds like they nowadays. we have seen a rise in Christian nationalism here recently. What does it look like today? And then how do you recognize it when it's being applied, especially again, marrying those two different things together? Abrm McQuarters: Yeah. I I I think mm at its core, Christian nationalism is not after the aims of scripture and the gospel. It is after power, it is after influence, it is after money, and all of those things you could look through in scripture, and every time you see any of those three things come up, there is a warning against them. and you see people fall into that trap over and over and over again. And so Christian nationalism seeks to make make the the the nation uniform, not unified. Meaning everybody has to fit these neat categories rather than a a worldview that can accomp encompass so many different kinds of ways of life and worldviews and thinkings and make still a convincing case for the gospel. I think Christian nationalism at its core is not thoughtful. It's strategic, it has a lot of money behind it, it's powerful, it can move through Shaniqua: That's not what I mean. Sorry. Abrm McQuarters: it can move it can move through so many different chains. Yeah, move through different no, it's all good. It can move through different channels because it is so simple. At its core is get like us or get out of the way, right? Be like us or get mowed over. It's not really thoughtful in its approach. And so it's not meant to be convincing, it's meant to be dogmatic, it's meant to be powerful. And so I think when you like signs to spot it. If it can't actually make room for all of your community, or I know one of our questions has to do with Rev Revelation seven. If it cannot create a revolution revolution revelation seven community with every tribe, tongue, nation, and language, then it's probably Christian nationalism. if it cannot both if it cannot steward its power by giving it away, if it cannot take care of the v the vulnerable while also calling people to personal responsibility and righteousness, if it cannot sit in the same room even with other religions and worldviews because it doesn't have a case to be made, it's probably Christian nationalism. I think Shaniqua: You gotta softly preach. Abrm McQuarters: those are just some of some of some of the cues. And if it again going back to our earlier conversation, if it makes your church look more like the political rallies you see on TV and less like the the spirit-filled Covenant gathering of the saints is probably Christian Christian nationalism. Tiana: Amen. when we were repair when we were preparing for this, Shaniqua, she let me know that in Texas, a megachurch pastor cheered for the plan to broadcast an execution. It was stated, the more people that can see the truth, the better. But in Ezekiel, God says that he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, emphasizing that he desires repentance over punishment. So what does that form in a congregation when his pastor cheers for something like that? Abrm McQuarters: Yeah, I think somewhere in scripture Jesus said a disciple would become like its master. And I think it it forms that same sort of spirit in the congregation to where it's unloving. It's a it's a hard-heartedness within a people. And so it's not just dangerous because of the influence that the pastor has to get those things accomplished, but it creates a spirit within the congregation that goes far beyond that one statement. So say you sort of as a pastor, let that Be your line, meaning like, I'm mostly loving, but like, let's just execute this man live on TV. That unloving spirit that you create in your congregation, you don't have the ability to just relegate it to one place, like you might think it does. It goes into so many different issues, into so many different people. and that's the danger that we we begin to form people with these values that are unchristian, and so they look unchristian in the public square, but they call themselves Christian. And and so there's a danger from like how people take and use those things, but then there's also a danger in the then the credibility of the church. Again. Probably in that same church, they're gonna do a baptism Sunday and say that Jesus forgives you for your sins and wants to wash you free of those things, free of charge. But if the congregation is being formed in one particular way to be unloving or unkind towards particular groups of people, and then try to do a baptism Sunday in their community and hope all the community comes out to baptism Sunday to hear and to see and to live out the gospel, those two things are not. Does that make sense? And so it's not, yeah, Shaniqua: Same through it. Abrm McQuarters: it's not just it's not just dangerous, and it is, but it also undermines the Christian message at the same time. And so that it's not just dangerous physically for their community, but it's also dangerous spiritually for their community. There is no credible witness of the gospel around as we continue to go. This is excusable. I know I I know I read Ezekiel, but let's just throw that away. And in in but just for this one instance, it's like you cannot do that. and expect any good gospel things to happen. Tiana: Yeah, yeah, it's like a picking and a choosing. Picking and a choosing what you want to follow and what you don't want to follow. And you know, we saw that when the enslavers allow preachers who taught service be obedient, but they would skip Exodus. They couldn't learn about their exit. So Abrm McQuarters: Yes. Yes. Tiana: right now there's real pushback in the black church against preaching that carries that plantation preacher that plantation preacher mindset. in your opinion, what is that mindset and where do you see it at today? Abrm McQuarters: Yeah, I I think it's a mindset that really is has the same aims as as the people trying to inform it, meaning that the the master of those slaves did not care about that slave preacher, him or herself, probably himself, but they cared more about that message getting through them to the folks that they were preaching to. and so it looks like the same thing. I think a lot of people are being used right now in this current moment because there's money. to be had because there's influence to be had, and because those things get cheers and applause from a lot of people. but at the end of the day it's it's empty. Meaning that I think a lot of people are going to be surprised how fast and how often administrations come and go. that's that's the danger of being a prisoner of the moment, thinking that what is now will always last. That's not the case. And especially in the case of Injustice, scripture tells us that's definitely not the case. And so if you're making your money, if you're making your power, if you're making your influence off of things that are unjust, off of parroting injustice in the in the public square, no matter what your race, color, or creed is, it's not going to work out well for you at the end of the day. and and I think I think too it looks it looks harsh, you know, that that plantation. Plantation preacher mindset was harsh. It sat like it was meant to sound obedient to the scripture or loving in the sense that like this is your fidelity to God, but it worked itself out in harshness when again scripture tells us that God's commands are are meant to also be an expression of his love for his people, his care, his his desire to do good to them. and so sometimes like people can string together the right words, so people might not come off so harsh. I think. there's sort of this weaponized sort of calmness or humility that where it's like, I'll just make the case in a very mellow voice and now you can't argue against it because I'm saying it to you in a way that's like tame and things like that. But again, if we are to take your words and implement them across our society, would that actually work itself out in love? Would that actually be peace or peaceable? or would that lead to injustice and people being taken advantage of and and really Unbiblical systems allowed to continue to run rampant in our communities. Shaniqua: One of the things that I I I won't say that is an extreme, but it is an opposite of the the the quote unquote plantation preacher theology or mindset is that we see black liberation theology that has arisen specifically within the black church, where it reads Jesus' words to preach deliverance to the captives from the side of the oppressed. critics say that that makes Jesus a political program too. So the question is can the black church reject the plantation preacher without marrying a different form or different theology or mindset to politics? What is that in between? Abrm McQuarters: yes, the answer has to be yes, because I think the black church, in the American ty context more than any other expression of the church has been able to do that over time. Meaning that you would see in these Hush Harbor churches that they wouldn't sort of withstand the plantation preacher and then go into the hush harbor, go off into the woods and go, you know what we're gonna do? We're gonna kill everybody on this plantation and we're gonna just do our own thing and subject them. No. They would go and and seeing Sing God's praises and sing about hope and sing about treating people right and do that. Now they they would seek to gain their freedom and they would seek to push back against the system in the ways that they could and things of that nature, but it wasn't out of a s out of a sense of hate or out of a sense of I just wish I had that power or I just wish I had that authority to do to others what's being done to me. It was again this holistic gospel mindset, which is this whole thing belongs to God. And so what my biggest hope is is that it all looks like God at the end of the day. And if I have to endure some things, I'm going to endure some things. If I gotta push back against some things, I'm gonna push back against some things, but all towards the ultimate aim of things looking like what God would want them to look like. There was still this idea again of lordship, meaning that the the the best I can do with my life is to continue to submit it over to Him. And so I think we can. We have to. I mean, it's it's the the biblical vision is is to be able to resist both of those things because they are both they both have unbiblical elements dressed up in biblical language. I do want to be careful about the way Yeah no I listen I do Shaniqua: Be careful, be careful. You know, they we quick to to cancel. Abrm McQuarters: yeah I do I do want to be careful about the ways that th there can be some false equivocation of like okay Plantation Preacher and Black Liberation Theology they're just Shaniqua: Mm-hmm. Agreed. Abrm McQuarters: as bad. I don't I don't think so. I think that ignores context of where black liberation theology came from and how it came about, and even some of its aims. Like I think there can be such this policing of language in black liberation theology that it it doesn't take into account that it is contextual, meaning it didn't it doesn't just look at scripture and go, okay, without thinking about my station in life, like this is what I think scripture says. It's like, no, because of my station in life, it is causing me to read scripture in this way and to fight for these aims. But for the Christian, wherever you start theologically, scripture still does have a have the the command and the call to be refined by scripture, be refined by the Spirit, no matter if that convicts us or not. at the end of the day. And so still there are ways that my brothers and sisters who really do lean towards black liberation theology have to account for the whole council of God, not because we want them to look any more culturally like anybody else, but because again, we're after this lordship idea in our life and it's what's best for our communities. Tiana: So there was a Shaniqua: We're not canceling it. Tiana: there was a survey released in February by PRRI, which is just Public Religion Research Institute, but they found that four in ten black Protestants qualify as sympathizers of Christian nationalism. Does that surprise you? Abrm McQuarters: Surprise surprise isn't the word, it's disappointing. It's disappointing, but I think, you know, there's a there is a great book that I just saw. Yeah, The Black Church and the African American Experience. Is that the one I'm thinking of? No, there's like there's man, I'm gonna find the book. But no, it's not surprising, but it is disappointing because I think as we especially as black people get access into more spaces, there can be this idea that now that I have access, I have to go in and assimilate to all the values that those spaces hold. And again, when we think about bringing something unique to our different contexts, I just think again The gospel is again what's unique as Christians bring it to different spaces, but I also think our cultural experiences are unique and also the thing that God can use to work into those spaces, meaning that the ultimate goal is not assimilation into your new white evangelical church or your new non denominational quote unquote diverse church. And that is an Abram opinion. that that's just that's just my own, like 'cause I've been in some of those spaces. And and seeing people run from their cultural experience to another that they don't understand and not seeing how that has such an ill effect on the actual congregation. Meaning, you run in here and you take on all their values and you don't know that you're also repeating Christian nationalist talking points because you're being just as unthoughtful in the ways that you're worshiping as your other brothers and sisters in that church. And so it feels like when another brother or sister of color walks in that church and goes, Hey, everybody, what we doing here? It feels like embarrassment or it can feel uncomfortable because it's like, hey, hey, hey, I'm enjoying I'm enjoying Shaniqua: You're supposed to code switch here. Abrm McQuarters: the fruits of this new space. When again, that that's how a a lot of the a lot of the church overall gets in trouble as we go. I want to enjoy the fruits of power and influence and comfort rather than bring to this space a gospel that will trouble those waters each and every time. And so again, not surprising, but it is disappointing. And it's a conversation definitely to be had because and I think what it what it tells me is that you are never stronger than the practices of your worship. Tiana: Mm-hmm. Abrm McQuarters: You will always be formed by the practices of your worship. And so even if you think, man, I'm pro-black, I'm about to come in here and reform this whole thing, but do not but but conform to the practices of worship that this church has, they those things will slowly change you, not you slowly change the institution. Tiana: Mm. Abrm McQuarters: and so it's just we have to be thoughtful again about lordship, thoughtful about reading our scripture, thoughtful about Christian community, thoughtful about loving our neighbors. and loving our enemies, thoughtful about the ways that we do these things. because if we don't, again we'll we'll we'll wake up one day and find ourselves on the on the other side of that survey. Tiana: Yeah. And I and I find this so interesting. So I'll share a little bit of my own story. So I didn't grow up in a church, but I did grow up in an all-black neighborhood. So when I moved to the South, I found a diverse multicultural church. But within that experience, it still felt like things were separated, especially from the black community. So like why does a church say that we're all one in Christ, but then we go into these spaces and we still feel a divide there? Abrm McQuarters: Yeah, I think again, because we're we're we're comfortable with uniformity, it's the easiest thing to do is to find one thing that we can all get behind that allows us to turn our brain off and just kind of go on autopilot. The gospel's so much better, more beautiful, but takes way more intentionality to do. And and so I think that's why we can feel that disconnect because oftentimes the ways that we set up these diverse spaces are not with thought and intention, but they are what's the lowest common denominator we can get everyone to commit to? And let's just hammer that note. And so everybody comes in with this like wealth of experiences and wealth of cultural backgrounds and wealth of life. And and they're being asked not to contribute that to the congregation and to one another. They're being asked to drop those things for the lowest common. denominator and that that feels the disconnect because you can't do that when you go out into life. You can't do that on your job or in your family or anywhere else. But you're being asked to come into the church to sacrifice that for the lowest common denominator. And again, I don't think we have to. The gospel allows us to do something better and different. Shaniqua: What has all of this cost the witness of the church? Abrm McQuarters: Yeah, I think I think it has cost us our credibility, meaning that when we ask for things like unity, or when we ask for things like peace, or when we ask for things like love, because we haven't practiced those things ourselves, either in-house or across town, there really is no credibility for us to ask for that of our communities because they can't find it in us. They don't see pastors from different denominations or races working with one another to do good for their community. And so why should they work with someone from a different political party? They don't see people from different races and denominations agreeing or disagreeing well. And so why should they with someone of a different political party? Again, our our our speech and our disposition towards others, even if it's not yet so public behind closed doors can get so nasty. And can get so degrading that they hear us talking about the other church down the street or the other Christian down the street. And so when they get up in a political rally or start to make their Facebook post, why should they govern their speech with any sort of respect or dignity or honor? Because they don't hear that from us. And so it's cost us our credibility to where now we begin to shout into the void because we feel the discomfort of the moment and we go. Let's at least honor people and let's at least have some dignity and let's di at least disagree well. But because we've not operated in in the ways that we should, it's cost us our credibility. again, the the system is fine and and and good to use the church for its aims, but as the church now goes to try to reform or refine the system, because we've outsourced that public witness, because we've married the state in ways that we aren't called to. We don't have the power to actually be prophetic in the ways that we want to. and so I think it's a it's a credibility. Shaniqua: Bar that was a bar. Tiana: There was a bar. So when people hear God and country preach together for years, what does that do to how they pray, who they see as their neighbor, and where they put their hope? Abrm McQuarters: How they pray, who they say see as their neighbor and where they put their hope. How they how they pray, I think it limits their scope. some of what I what I see in our work is it's a real faith problem, meaning that we we listen to the ways that the civil rights movement and what they were able to do, or the abolitionist movement and what they were able to do, or like the women's rights activism, what they were able to do. And we go, that could never happen today. And those folks had way less resources, probably less access to education or educate like that we they didn't have the internet the internet, they didn't have cell phones, they didn't barely had planes, things of that nature. And they were able to do great things in society because there was a bigger there was something bigger at play. But when we do this sort of thing where it's like it's just limited what God can do with this country. And even when we say country, it more than likely means people that we can see or imagine in our heads. It's probably not the actual full scope of the country. It's a very limited scope. it begins to decrease our faith to go, well, I guess it is up to the government in order to change our communities. I guess it is up to our local governments to teach our kids how to read or to do something about the the access to maternal health care or to do something about all these societal problems when traditionally it's the church that's been involved. It's built hospital systems, it's built school systems. I mean, you you think look through civil rights stories and people were putting their hands to actual wood to build schoolhouses so that their kids could learn how to read. But we have way more resources and way less faith because of that marriage and because our scope has been narrowed. So I think that's what it does to our prayers. It gives us too small a prayer. and then I think it it because we have a narrow scope of who our neighbor is, it makes us way more distrusting of people who we don't know and don't look like us. we and and and again I I I do scratch my head for this for Christians because the gospel gives us a way to understand people, if that makes sense. It gives us that they are made in the image of God and that they struggle with sin at the same time in Jesus. Is the solution to all of the problems that they may have. So it gives us this well-rounded understanding of humanity or this well-rounded anthropology so that we can hold an appropriate level of like, I don't know what a sin look like in your life, so I'm gonna hold you at arm's distance before you know we really get into a relationship, but I can still come towards you because I got what you need. I have a gospel worldview that can bridge those gaps. And so I don't think we're meant to be as skeptical as we are today. But again, because our country has created these categories of different kinds of countries with different kinds of values and all their people are here and they're amongst us and we don't know what they're gonna do and we don't know their aims. And because that gets preached from the pulpit rather than this idea of we're all made in the image of God no matter where come from, we're all dealing with sin no matter where you come from, and we are all able to be redeemed by the blood of Jesus Christ, no matter where you come from. it makes us way more skeptical and distrusting than I think we're meant to be. I don't remember what the last category is, but I think that's what it does. It begins to the God and country message limits our scope in ways that the gospel message wants to blow up because it does, it is able to encompass all that we see because God made it all and He has a plan for it all, and His purposes and His promises will come to pass for it all. And we're meant to be messengers of that good news in the ways that we speak, but more so in the ways that we interact with. And I think that's that's what we miss when we do the God and country messaging. Shaniqua: So you use the earlier used credibility. And so in case you haven't learned from my personality so far, I'm probably a little bit bad about it with some things. Abrm McQuarters: Listen listen, I love it. Shaniqua: I was quite okay with that that that that ear being cut off in the car, right? But one of the things that I feel personal with my own personal conventions. convictions right now is that I really feel like so many people are co-opting the name Christian. And for me, that's problematic because people are forgetting that that Jesus says that that we are to love one another. And that has been overlooked, lost so much when we're seeing things. And so that leads to where America is in the communities, the American church, and the gap in discipleships. discipleship because I I personally feel that, you know, Jesus has enough followers. He needs more disciples, disciples that are looking like him, ref that are reflections of him. that he is the master and he told us to go and make more disciples, not more followers. and so with that being said, from the political standpoint and the things that we are witnessing today, what is that gap? that we're seeing as people being formed as true disciples of Christ and what would what should it look like? Abrm McQuarters: Yeah. That's a that's a great question. You know, one of the things that first comes to mind is I I I love working at the end campaign because I do get to process these things in real time with really good people. And one of the concepts that I love that I've gotten from Justin is how dangerous it is to be a prisoner of the moment. Because if you're a prisoner of the moment, you'll start to justify things that are unchristian to accomplish what you think are are the best aims at the Shaniqua: His Christian. Abrm McQuarters: moment. And in and a lot of those things are unchristian or unbiblical or fall short of God's standards. And so I think what what also happens is you become a prisoner of the moment so many times that you actually never launch in your discipleship journey because there's another excuse why I can do this unchristian or unbiblical thing now and follow Christ for real once this is all over with, once this next presidential election happens, once this person is in the White House, once this my church is this big or my community looks like this. And what I see with Jesus and his disciples is they didn't get to be prisoners of the moment. Jesus filled Peter's boat with fish. And while it was kind of sinking and they were trying to figure out what to do with it, he goes, Follow me, right? Don't stand here and count all this fish. That's for somebody else to do. I want you to be fish as a men right now. Follow me. I think about Zacchaeus chasing him up in a tree, and he's like, Hey, while you're sort of exposed before all the people, I gotta be at your house. Right now. And people always have issues with Jesus' timing because He's not He's not agreeing to be a prisoner of the moment. He's not He's not thinking how they might think, hey, Rome's in charge. Are you at now going to restore the are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel? And he's like, it's not for you to know those times and seasons. I want you to go and be witnesses. Don't be a prisoner of the moment because discipleship really is about following God long enough to see his purposes come to pass. And so I just think like discipl there's some of the discipleship gap is the timing and the patience that it takes to grow into some of these things and to watch God work. We are so easily duped into thinking that we are one decision away from accomplishing all the purposes that God might want for our life. And I don't think that's the case. Because if so, then God would just take us to heaven at that moment. He gives us a life to work out those things and an eternity to experience with him. And so s this discipleship journey is meant to be long for a reason and not to grind you into dust, not so that you might have the most amount of suffering, but that so that you could see God's goodness the longest. And so I think when that comes to our civic engagement in these political times, it is right for us to be engaged and to be engaged for a long time. But it also matters how we are engaged for that long of time because it does determine If we are able to, again, maintain the credibility, increase in the wisdom, and endure long enough to see these purposes come to pass. You think about the civil rights movement, when did it start and when did it end? I mean, you could talk about it from the end of World War II, but you could go back and you could go back and you could go back. There's a lineage of people seeing themselves in discipleship and not seeing all that they wanted to come to pass, but they endured, they were patient. And they're patient in the right direction long enough to see someone else come to move those things further along. The the long moral arc of history as Martin Luther King described it. And so I think some of that discipleship journey again has to be okay with the timing that God has for that of for us in that discipleship journey. And then being with one another. Because I think especially in this age of individualism, in this age where you can build what feels like a huge following. by yourself with your own camera, with your own devices. you can start to believe that like I have what what it takes to tip the scales and tip the momentum. but even like Jesus didn't do things by himself. He he got a a a group around him and he accomplished salvation by himself for his people on the cross and left us to take part in the rest of the redemption. Left that with us. Left us to be witnesses and to take part in that with him. And so there's there's not just like a timing aspect, but there's also a togetherness aspect. And so many good coalitions break apart because we don't know how to walk together for a long time. We don't know how to endure together for a long time. We don't know how to take these ideas and go, I know it's gonna be worked out amongst some sinful and broken people, but we're gonna do what it takes to do the work to stay together long enough to see. the fruit of that in public. And so, yeah, the discipleship journey is long and it takes people. but it's really good when it happens. And I think we know it when we see it. Tiana: I like that. I like that that view of it that it's a building block. It's not just resting on all of you know just resting on one person. We're all a part of this train, just trying to keep it moving, trying to keep the body of Christ moving, trying to keep the gospel moving. So it's not just on one person. You told us that you hope this reaches someone worn out by our political discourse. What do you want that person to hear? Abrm McQuarters: You don't have to do anything outside of faithful Christian practices to engage faithfully in the public square. Your civic engagement can come through spiritual disciplines that again does have a good effect on your community, but also that brings you the grace and the peace and the endurance of God. And so I would I would hope that if they feel worn out to keep committing to good, faithful Christian practices and to do that with people who are committed to the same. And I think they'll see fruit. Tiana: This has been so good. I've enjoyed this so much. So where can people find the and campaign, a chapter near them, Justin Gibney's book, Don't Let Nobody Turn You Around? And also, how can they find you Abram? Abrm McQuarters: Yeah, so a lot of those things you can find on the internet. So ancampaign dot org is our website. You can find us on Instagram and other social media at Anne Campaign. if you are in the Georgia, in the Atlanta area, we have an AN Campaign Atlanta chapter as well as if you're in the Dallas Fort Worth area, we have an AN Campaign Dallas chapter as well. All those things you can find on our website or reach out directly. I'm also on all the social medias, at Abram C Q 16. Shaniqua: We'll tag you. We'll tag Abrm McQuarters: I don't know. Shaniqua: you. Abrm McQuarters: It'll probably Tiana: Ha. Abrm McQuarters: show me some. I was like, it is a little more involved. but yes, Shaniqua: tag you, it's okay. Abrm McQuarters: or you can reach out Abram N Abram at AnCampaign.org, manager pro programs and partnerships. So if you would like to get plugged into the AN Campaign, that's my role, is to help you find a place in our community. And so so that you don't have to walk this walk alone. but we are really out here trying to fight for this and campaign framework so that Christians really can be more faithful in the public square. And that the fruit of that is better representation, more just policy, and just a healthy political culture overall. So if that sounds of interest to you, we probably got something for you to do. So reach out. Tiana: thank you, Abram. Thank you so much. Thank you for the work that you're doing with the Anne campaign. Thankful for Justin Gibbony, everything that you're trying to do. And thank you for this education, because it's it's it's needed, especially in the Christian space and especially with social media and the things that we have to see in this political climate. So I've enjoyed this episode and I pray that Shaniqua: Same here. Tiana: our listeners are gonna enjoy it too. Shaniqua: you. Abrm McQuarters: Well, thank you all for having me on. Thanks for making a space for this conversation. I think it's a really important one. To your point, not just because of politics itself, but because it's influencing how people are being formed in their faith. And I love when people get to know Jesus better. And so I would hate for politics to be a reason why they don't. And I also think that it's a way to get to see God's goodness in a really unique way. And so I think it's a it's a worthy conversation to Tiana: Well, I'll end that with an Amen. Thank you so Shaniqua: Two way man. Tiana: much.