Latest / Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood / 67. Mary Jane Kelly - The Ripper's Final Kill...?

Transcript

67. Mary Jane Kelly - The Ripper's Final Kill...? · Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: You're listening to an airwave media podcast. Hi everybody, and
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: welcome to Hooded. What Now the history podcast That's not
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: your history class? With me your host Katie Charlwood, History
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: Harlotte and reader of books. Now, before we get into
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: this episode, I would just like to say to you know,
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: all of the people who have issues with language and
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: my language specifically, this is not your history class. There
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: are a bunch of other history podcasts which have a lot,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: you know, neater language than mine. And if you don't
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: like words like pescifucker, bollocks, probably beshia bogger off. Now right,
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: because this is just how it is. You don't like it,
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: that is up to you. For everyone else, Hey, did
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: you miss me? I know it's been so long since
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: the last episode. What happened? I went to Kansas? Well,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: I actually went to New Jersey first, and a wonderful
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: history teacher took me down to the boardwalk. So I
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: actually met a professor and then a teacher. So, because
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: my fans are history people, which is super fun, so professionals.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: So I went down to the Jersey boardwalk and it
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: was really nice. I don't care why everybody was complaining
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: so much I was getting messed just going careful about Jersey.
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: It's a shithole, and I'm like going along the boardwalk.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: There's like vintage stores and ice cream and hot dogs
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: that I never got to eat. But I want to
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: go back to New Jersey to get some Nathan's hot dogs.
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: And I don't care. I want to do it. It
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: looks like delicious. But I'm looking at all this like
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: architecture and people are skateboarding and it's just very chill.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: It's very nice. I quite liked it. It was quite
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: a good time. And I don't know how else to explain,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: sort of like New York and New Jersey, like the
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: suburbs versus like cities, And all I can say is
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: it was very much what I expected it to be.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: I was really surprised when I got to Kansas, though,
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: because it was bloody, gorgeous. It was really really nice.
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: People like, why do you go to Kansas? It's beautiful there.
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: You should all go to Kansas if you haven't been
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: to the Gaya Retreat. It is so just beautiful there.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: It was hot as fuck, but like we were taking
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: like ci estas in the middle of the day just
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: because it was too hot, like there was nap time,
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: so have lunch, go for a nap. That's how we
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: worked it. But I had such a wonderful time at
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: the Heartland Pegan Festival, and I know it clurrent form
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: is changing and I don't know what it's changing too,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: But I would absolutely go again, and would I would
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: pay to stay in a cabin. I did get to
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: stay in one as an honored guest, but I can't
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: really do tents anymore because of my back problems because
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: I've got scoliosis and that just doesn't work for me
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: as a general role. And it was so much fun
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: because when we were there, I was sharing with the Fawns,
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: So they're two girls who they dress up as fawns
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: and they're fabulous, So Kelly and Whitney I had such
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: a wonderful time and we just had the best tip.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: But we were there one day and one of the
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: girls in the kitchen, I was like, where's Emily. What's
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: Emily like? And everyone's like, who the fuck is Emily? Like,
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: who is this Emily Parson sheeps talking about? She thought
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: my name was Emily. So I ended up So I
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: ended up with this American persona called Emily, and Emily
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: has theuckle fry, and Emily pronounces words incorrectly. I mean,
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: I know we'ponounce words in correctly because of my accident.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: But Emily loves these jella panos and the tortillas. Like
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: Emily is so white. I mean, I know I'm white,
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: but Emily is so It's such it's such a good time.
• 4:28
  Speaker 1: But honestly, Aaron and Tara in Savannah, Amy and Safety
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: John and in Jeremy chere me with the puppies. I
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: just oh, oh, it was so this one time at
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: Pagan Camp. I cannot convey to you how much fun
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: this was. I mean I did see a lot of
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: boobs and a lot more genitalia than I was anticipating
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: I would see, you know, because there are actually signs
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: up certain areas going like you know, you need to
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: be dressed to be here, like you need to be
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: clothed or to be in this location. But I had
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: such a wonderful time, and I honestly would do so
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: much to get back. I would. I would love to
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: go back there just a holiday because it's just so wonderful.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: But I know what you're thinking, You're thinking, got your
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: glibber jabber, in fact me, in fact you I will.
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: But first we've got to get our source on Mary
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: Jane Kelly and the Victims of Jack the Ripper by
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: Neil Schilden. The Hidden Lives of Jack the Ripper's Victims
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: by Robert Hume. The Complete History of Jack the Ripper
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: by Philip Sugden. Metropolitan Police three Dash one four oh
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: Police Investigation, Poly Nichols, Anti Chaptment, Mary Jane Kelly Metropolitan
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: Police three Dash one for one not in Report into
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: the Murders, Palace and Hovelle. Phases of London Life by
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: Daniel Joseph Kerwin. Prostitutes an Ordinary Citizens, Commercial Sex in
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: London eighteen eighty five to nineteen sixty by Julia Late.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: The Five by Hallie rubin Hold. And of course we
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: have the Echo, Police News Pall, Mall Gazette, Evening Star
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: and the Telegraph. Are you saiding comfortably good? Then let's begin.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: So this final episode in the five Canonical Victims of
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper. So this is about Mary Jane Kelly,
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: and it's tough because she's known as the last canonical
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: victim of Jack the Ripper. I don't think she is,
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: and I have a special guest later on who's going
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: to come and help me elaborate that. But that's the case.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: That being said, Mary Jane Kelly is probably the most
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: elusive of every victim that we have dealt with thus far.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: Because we know Jack, we know absolutely nothing about it.
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: Sorry excuse the pun, but we don't. Every piece of
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: information we have is definitely second third hand. There are
• 7:04
  Speaker 1: very few documents related to her existence, very few, indeed,
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: and we're basically running off her rumor mill. It's whispers
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: and hints and stories. There is very little concrete evidence,
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: which has led a lot of people to you know,
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: consider one option or the other and to assume that
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: something happened one way or the other. And with Mary Jane,
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: like her early life, we don't know. We don't know
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: her day of birth, we don't know where she lived,
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: we don't know how she was brought up, we don't
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: know what type of family she had. Now, the story
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: she tells, she tells different people, different tales as far
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: as we know, because again we're getting it second third hand,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: and a lot of this information is coming through, you know,
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: interviews for paper or in the inquest after her death.
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: You know, it's things like that. So she may have
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: been born in Ireland and then moved to Wales. She
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: may have been from Wales her whole life. Like We're
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: not sure. There was a Mary Jane Kelly who was
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: baptized in Limerick and whose family did emigrate. Now this
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: could have been another Mary Jane Kelly. This could very
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: well be a case of mistaking identity, or not mistaken identity,
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: stolen identity, identity theft. It could very well be. There's
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: no guarantee one way or the other. But there are
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: literally no Welsh census records pertaining to this, and if
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: Mary Jane was who she said she was, she would
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: show up in at least one census record. So she
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: tells people that she was married to a coal miner
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: called Davis or Davis, which fairly common Welsh name. There's
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: no record of them. There's no record of their marriage,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: so if she was in a relationship with him, it
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: was more like a common law thing as opposed to
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: an actual marriage. But again, the census records they don't
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: show anything. We have nothing, And as a historian, may
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: I tell you this is incredibly frustrating because she was
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: a person and her story deserves to be told, but
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: we don't really know it. Maybe she didn't want anybody
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: to know it. And then, in which case, none of
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: her bloody business, is it now? Whether she was with
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Davies or wasn't with Davies, whether they split up or
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: he died or whatever happened, because apparently it was like
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: she was like sixteen, so she says when she married him,
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: and then after this she ends up moving to London. Now,
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: although our information is very much second third hand, we
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: can use this a wee bit to get a week
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: grasp of what Mary Jane was like. I mean, we
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: know that probably her name wasn't Mary Jane, and she
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: probably didn't come from Ireland. So when she arrives in
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: London in eighteen eighty three, there were a few things
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: that we get from her. She's well educated, she can read,
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: she is articulate, and she can draw. Now she's noted
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: as being a you know, a good artist. That she
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: can draw quite well. Now, I mean this could have
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: been a talent that she picked up you know, here
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: and there. But in girls' schools, drawing was something that
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: was that was very much put forward. So she was,
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: you know, from a wealthier area and from a wealthy school.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Chances are she would have had art lessons. She would
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: have had that. Because of the way that she talked
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: about the places that she had lived, we can surmise
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: that she did live in Cardiff before she lived in London,
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: and she does tell one of her lovers that that
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: she had a long stay in a hospital in Wales. Now,
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: if she was in a public hospital, a public funded hospital,
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: we would have a record of where she'd been, especially
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: if she was under her own name, if Mary Jane
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: was her name, But this isn't there, so either she
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: was there under an assumed name, or there was the
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: possibility she was put into an asylum I know terms.
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: But.
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: That's kind of what happened when wealthier girls ended up in,
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: you know, situations out of wedlock. So if she had
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: been pregnant and given birth in one of these institutions,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: she very well could have been from an upper class
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: family who had that. But the shame of that, for
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: whatever reason, meant that she couldn't go back because of
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: their particular perceptions on purity and womanhood and everything like
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: that in the era, she would have been shamed and
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: so going back to her family may not have been
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: an option for her, and so going to the place
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: where there was a lot of people and a lot
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: more opportunities, she ends up in London. Now, one thing
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: people say about her is, apart from the fact that
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: she's meant to be beautiful, she's quite young. So she's
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: younger than everyone else we've dealt with so far. She's
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: meant to be in her twenties, and she's got perhaps
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: auburn hair. There is stories of it being dyed with hennah,
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: but we're not entirely sure about that. But she's pretty,
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: she's young, and she doesn't really have an accent. Now,
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: in order to not have an accent that has to
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: be pushed out of you, you have to be trained
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: not to have an accent. So I don't know if
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: you've ever noticed this, but you get a lot of
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: people who would be like, I don't really have an accent.
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: Like in Scotland for years people would say I didn't
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: have an accent, but you hear it. And a good
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: friend of mine actually commented on my voice the other
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: day and he was like, yeah, your accent just flipped
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: in the middle of a conversation. I'm like, yeah, I
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: do that. So sometimes it'll become more Scottish and sometimes
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: it becomes a little more Irish, just depending on location
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: and what I'm talking about. And I didn't realize I
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: did it for so long, but I do it. But yeah,
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: so if she grew up in England and had elocution lessons,
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: there was every possibility that she would you not have
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: an accent. I'm not saying I had elocution lessons, by
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: the way, I was just told to speak properly my
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: grand her family's from the Highlands, and yeah, this is
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: kind of how things end up. But yeah, with Mary Jane,
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: she was how do I put this, well spoken, and
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: no one ever assumed she was any other nationality, and
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: they wouldn't even consider it, like it wasn't a possibility
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: to them until she told them. Like she would tell
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: people she was Irish, she was Welsh, but she didn't
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: have an accent, Like she didn't have anything like any
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: lults or anything that related to that. You'll see a
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: lot of like movies and stuff that are in documentaries
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: is when when they, you know, do portray her, they
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: always give her this kind of fake Irish accent and
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: it's always weird. But yeah, elocution is always one option,
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: but there's always the possibility that because accents, especially in
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: the UK, they're incredibly regional, so she could have just
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: hidden it, disguised it. But again she would need to
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: be I'm not saying she would need to be of
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: a certain class to do that, but in order to
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: pronounce things a certain way and not fall into and
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: colloquial habits, she would have to know how to do that.
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: So there's always the possibility that she was from a
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: wealthier family from a certain area and you know, either
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: couldn't go back or didn't want information to go back
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: to them. But again this is all guesswork because we
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: don't know. What we do know is that she arrived
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: in London in eighteen eighty three, so she somehow gets
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: a job, you know, as a high end sex worker
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: under a madam in London. And these are easy positions
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: to get being being a sex worker in these kind
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: of areas up in like Haymarket and picc a Lilly
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: pic a lily, that's that's a sauce Piccadilly, she would
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: really need to have something special or some kind of
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: in so her name even fluctuates a little bit here.
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: So sometimes she's known as Mary Jane and sometimes Marie Jeannette,
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: and it's quite possible she also spoke French, which you
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: can learn, you know, in certain areas in life. But again,
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: you know, French was you know, an international language of commerce,
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: of business, of dealings, so it was quite a common
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: language for again wealthier girls to learn. So anyway, in
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: the eighteen eighties in London, these these madams, they would
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: be called procuresses. So it wasn't just come in women,
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: lie on your back, you know, and instead remove repeat
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: next person. It was kind of more like an escort
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: service or even the girlfriend experience because a client, they
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: wouldn't just purchase sex. That wasn't the point. You were
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: supposed to buy a women's company from the evening. So
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: the women that were involved in this, the sex workers
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: that were doing this, they had to be of a
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: certain ilk. They had to be able to have a conversation,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: they had to be able to dance, which was incredibly important,
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: you know, they had to know the lay of the land,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: make the appropriate you know comments, jokes, YadA YadA, and
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: a lot of the time certain areas would be booked
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: out like gentlemen would book like dance halls, like clubs
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: would book you know, these kind of areas and would
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: have these kind of events so that they could spend
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: an evening with a lady adorn her with you know,
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: gifts and clothing and you know, things that would make
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: it not seem inappropriate to be together, because if a
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: gentleman were taking a lady out on a night in
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: the town, you know, it would have to have the
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: appearance of respectability. And Mary Kelly herself, she often referred
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: to this as her career, like she saw sex work
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: as a career. Whether she'd kind of leaned into its
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: lot in life or whatever, that's what she did. She
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: was generally comfortable at points, so she would have jewels
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: and clothing and she would be safe, you know, to
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: a certain point. And again it was relatively comfortable as
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: far as the situation goes. And although she wasn't like
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: a Corrasan who would have you know, very select like
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: one or two clients, she probably had a few repeat
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: customers in that build a level of trust and a
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: level of intimacy. Now she ends up leaving her madam's house,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: the brothel, whatever you want to call it, and she
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: ends up leaving. Now she does say that she goes
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: to Paris, didn't like it, comes back. We don't know
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: if this is correct. We don't know if she actually
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: went to France. We don't know what happened there or
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: why she left. There's you know, theories that she was trafficked.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: There's theories that she went there with a gentleman who
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: promised her the world, and Mary Jane Kelly's personalityes made
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: that dissolve. So there's the concept which did happen, you know, well,
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: to do escort sex workers. They were trafficked to France
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: because English ladies were fun. It was a fad. It was,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: you know, the trendy thing, and so they would be
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: taken and you know, it would not be as pleasant
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: as scenario as they had had before. I'm not saying
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: the scenario before was pleasant by any means, but this
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: was worse because again language barriers, under my your locations, culture,
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: et cetera. But then there's always the possibility that she
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: went there with a man named was it Clig Cuig?
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: This dude. Anyway, she goes over and she gambled, She
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: was loud, she had no secrets, and he was more
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: reserved and so although life in Paris should be kind
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: of fun, especially for her in that era, because of
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: what Paris was then, you know, it was the place
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: to be. I mean, it's still relatively the place to be,
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: but it was just a very exciting, you know, place
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: at that time. But for whatever reason, goes to France,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: comes back from France, and she doesn't go back to
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: her original madam. We don't know why where Bridges burned was,
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: did an incident occur? We don't know exactly why she
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: left was the madam. The very reason she was trafficked
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: was the madam mad that she had left to, you know,
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: start her life with this man and thus leaving her,
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: you know, her clients without one of their favorite pets.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: Whom's to say, Yes, I know what I just said,
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: but I am thinking of other perspectives, and even though
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: it makes my skin crawl. So, for whatever reason, Mary
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Jane Kelly is now in Ratcliffe, So the Ratcliffe Highway,
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: it's in London. It's near the harbor. It's pretty busy,
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: pretty crowded. There's always sailors and drunks, and you know,
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: it's easy to hide there, and also it's pretty easy
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: to earn there at the very least, she'd always have
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: a full belly and you know, a good drink. Now
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: it's at this point that we know Mary Kelly was drinking,
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: whether she was drinking before, and that had caused issues
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: with her previous you know, brothel again just a possibility.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: But there she is. She's in the rat Club Highway
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: and she ends up renting this little brick cottage from
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: this Dutch couple in like eighteen eighty five, I say cottage.
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: She basically rented a room in this brick house, right,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: and the owners, the original owner, her husband used to
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: rent out to ladies of the night, you know, to
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: use for their clientele. And when he died, you know,
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: the widow was like, eh, why why ruin a good thing?
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: May as well, you know, keep earning her money. Now, Elizabeth,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: who she rented from, she wasn't like a madam or
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: sort of a procuress. She wasn't any of these things, right,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: She was just a woman who rented some rooms. And
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: it was whoever rented those rooms, it was up to
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: them to find their own client tell. And so that's
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: what Mary Jane did. It was easier for her. She could,
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: you know, be more careful about who she was dealing with,
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: and she was safe. Now for the most part, you know,
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: generally Mary Jane Kelly was quiet and kind and sober.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: But when she had a drink in her, when she
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: had alcohol, she was loud, raucous. Again, she held no secrets,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: She gambled, she was not she was not great to
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: be around, and she caused so much trouble that she
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: you know, she basically gets evicted from this room. And
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: after this she moves into the boarding house next door.
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: Now it's not that Mary Jane was, you know, drinking
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: to excess all the time. It's just that when she
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: did drink, she is generally what I like to refer
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: to as a grumpy goose. I don't know if you've
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: ever met a goose in real life, but a they
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: are terrifying and they will come at you. They will
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: come at you when threatened, even when not threatened. Sometimes
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: they just like to chase you. But yeah, once she's
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: got a drink in her, she's an angry goose. She's honking.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: So a year later, she meets Joseph Fleming. He is
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: this twenty seven year old laborer and he is apparently
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: heads over heels over Mary Jane, and you know, she
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: seemed to care for him. They actually stay in contact
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: for the rest of her life, but you know, their
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: relationship doesn't last too long. She moves in with him,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: you know, not that long after meeting him, So I
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: mean it's some kind of stability, which makes sense because
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: you know, she's dealt with enough and living with a man,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: as we know, as we've said before in many of
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: these episodes, is the most secure option. So she even
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: talks about how fond she is of him, and she
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: continues this for a long time. And so while she's
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: living with him, she tries to quit, you know, sex work.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: She doesn't you know, look for John's or clients, but
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: for whatever reason, she's forced to, you go back into
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: selling sex like she has to do it, apparently it's
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: the only way of her earning. And the following year
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: she meets Joseph Barnett. Now Joseph Barnett is one of
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: our main sources of information about Mary Jane. Now, what
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: she tells him and what she tells other people, it's
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: information that we have to take with a pinch of salt.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: So she kind of settles down with Joseph number two
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: and there together and they move here and there over
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: the course of a few months. But then they end
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: up getting the little one room building in Miller's Court
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: and that's like the spring of are eight, so you know,
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: from eighty seven to eighty eight, and they move in.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: But what's really strange about this is that the tenancy
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: is in Mary Jane Kelly's name, not Joseph's, which, to
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: be honest, is really fucking weird for the era, because
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: you know, you would expect it to be in the
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: man's name, but it was in Mary Jane's. We don't
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: know why, We probably will never know why, but we
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: do know that fact. So in Mill's Court, Mary Jane
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: would often talk to her neighbor. There was a young girl,
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: and that's where we get another huge chunk of you know,
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: the information about her is what she tells us girl,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: and we hear about other girls coming up to her
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: who are thinking about going into sex work, and she
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: basically steers them away. She warns them against it, not
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: because it's you know, degrading or shameful or anything like that.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: It's because it's exhausting. Like she said herself, she was
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: tired of it and again. Mary Jane Kelly is still
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: very very young at this point, so life with Joseph
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: Barnett isn't all, you know, peaches and cream, because he
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: loses his job, so he doesn't have an income and
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: he can't get what he needs to get, and so
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: they're forced to rely on her going back to her
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: career and engaging in sex work. Now can you imagine
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: this is a woman who's already said she's tired of it,
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: she doesn't want to do it anymore, she doesn't want
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: to have to sell her body, and circumstances have forced
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: this upon her again because think about it, if she
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: went from a situation where she was safe and secure
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: and she was living with this man to just having
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: to put herself in danger again, because she would be
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: very well aware of the risk because she is a
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: woman in eighteen eighties London who was also incredibly aware
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: of the Ripper slayings, the Whitechapel murders, like she would
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: have people tell her about them, and she was having
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: to put herself in danger now. Barnet also wasn't happy
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: because Mary Jane was letting women stay in Miller's court,
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: so instead of having them be out of the streets
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: at night. She was letting people stay. Now, some people
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: say that they were, but yeah, we don't have any
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: definitive information on that. All we know is that she
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: let women sleep in her house instead of having to
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: be on the streets because she was afraid for them.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: So she was putting all this into play. And then Barnet,
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: he just can't be dealing with it. There's a fight.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: They were always having fights, especially when they drank. And
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: a window gets smashed. And the thing with this window
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: is it gets like stuffed with like a rag or
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: a cloth. It's just to keep the chill out because
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: at this point it's not exactly the warmest time of year.
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: But by offering her home to these women, she could
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: very well have saved lives, not just from you know,
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: the White Chapel killer, but from the other dangers out
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: on the streets. Yeah, Joseph wasn't super happy about this,
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: but he couldn't really say anything because it was Mary
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: Jane who had the roof over his head. She was
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: paying for everything. It was in her name. But eventually
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: it's too much for him and he leaves. But Joseph
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: does pop back on November eighth, eighteen eighty eight, and
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: she's chatting to her Palissy. She'd been to the pub,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: but she wasn't drunk, she wasn't like heavily and took scared.
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: She seemed very normal. And he says he came to
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: tell her that he had nothing to offer her. He had,
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: you know, no finances, no job, no nothing. And they
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: talk for an hour and he leaves. And the next
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: time anyone says Mary Jane, it's her neighbor, Mary Anne.
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: And she sees her about quarter to midnight, eleven forty five,
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: and she's going into her little apartment with a man
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: and she tells Mary and she's going to be singing,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: and she does sing and here singing for a bit.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: Now about one o'clock in the morning, one of the
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: neighbors is complaining about the fact that she's still singing,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: and she's she's at it for like an hour and
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: a bit. And then about two am, the dude is gone, rins, lather, repeat,
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: off he goes, and Mary Jane is out two o'clock
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: in the morning. She's seen by a few people, and
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: she then is maybe seen being spoken to by another man.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: At some point that evening, Mary Jane Kelly makes her
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: way home, She goes into mother's court, she folds her
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: clothes neatly, and she goes to bed fully in the
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: belief that she's safe and sound, because she's only worried
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: about the White Chapel killer, and he killed people on
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: the streets, so she had every reason to think she
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: was going to wake up the next morning, but she didn't.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: And on November ninth, about eleven o'clock in the morning,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: the landlord sends one of his goons round to get
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: the late rent from Mary Jane. But when Thomas gets there,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: knocks on the door and gets no response, he decides
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: to take a look in the window, and that's when
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: he sees the horrific murulation of Mary Jene. When it
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: came time to bury Mary Jane Kelly, because it was
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: assumed she was irish, there was a Catholic ceremony, and
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: like Catherine Errow's before her, even though she had no
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: family to speak of or that we know of, like
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: people lined the street. It was a massive, massive deal.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: And we talk about the less dead a lot, but
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: Mary Jane Kelly was a very a very interesting figure
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: for this because if you was kind of venerated. You know,
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: people had this strange obsession with her, possibly because of
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: how little we know about her, because so much of
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: her is a mystery, and that's where all these conspiracy
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: theories come from. But because she was young and supposedly beautiful,
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: and because she had been mutilated in such a horrific manner,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: and because she was killed indoors, she becomes this weird symbol,
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: this icon of this fallen woman, and it could have
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: instigated the needs for change in a lot. And Mary
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: Jane Kelly is laid to rest under a name she
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: preferred to use, Marishane. So I'm going to go into
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: a little bit more detail now with one of my
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: favorite history talk people and my special guest for this
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: week's episode. And now we have the host of the
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: God's favorite podcast and one of my first history talk friends,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: actually Melessa.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: Hi, I'm glad to be here because we're going to
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: talk some true crime. It's I get my true crime
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: fixed in now. So we started off on TikTok as
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: friends just because I was like, oh, she's got a
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: history podcast and I have one, and we bonded over
• 33:19
  Speaker 2: our love of Yeah, a lot of things, but specifically
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: Jack the Ripper.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: And then we also have a Titanic thing.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: It's at this point it's my second profession is Titanic.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: I do nothing but Titanic content for the entire month
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: of April. So that's where my brain is. So it's
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: gonna be nice to have a little bit of Jack
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: the Ripper interlude here.
• 33:41
  Speaker 1: We have very particular opinions about Mary Kelly.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: Indeed, so we both know that Mary Jane Kelly is
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: considered to be one of them what they call the
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: canonical five. I love the term Ripperologists. It's kind of
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: funny to me ripprology. They consider those five victims, although
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: I would say they're more than likely more than five.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: But you and I both think that Mary Jane Kelly
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: is likely not part of that victimology, which is weird
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: I think for some people because they always consider her
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: like the final death.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: I feel like either the Repper was somehow stopped before
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: Mary Jane Kelly or just disappeared. Because it's not the
• 34:25
  Speaker 1: same Kellor. It's not I don't care who's It doesn't
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: add up. None of it makes sense.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think like when we both were talking about
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: this previously, we both have this it's clearly gut instant,
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: because you know, you can't prove anything with the River crimes,
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: but it doesn't feel like the same guy. It just doesn't.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: Because when you look at the crime scene photos, and please,
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: if you're going to google that, don't do it at
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: work and just be prepared because Mary Jane Kelly's photos
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: are terrifying. That whole crime scene is terrified. But when
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: you really think about the condition of the bodies of
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: the other victims that granted, that was also escalating, but
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: Mary Jane Kelly's death was so brutal and so violent
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: that it just doesn't match with what I think the
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: ripper was after which there's also like the process killer
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: who enjoys the process, but this is just a person.
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: He was trying to, you know, cut open and get
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: organs out, and that was more of the emo with
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: the other victims, whereas Mary Jane was just annihilated.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: And there's so much rage when you look at the others,
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: they're so clean, they are displayed like they're out in
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: the open. Every single one you know, was out there.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: They wanted to be seen, and this is heading away
• 35:44
  Speaker 1: in a house.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, That's what always got me too, because he was
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: so clearly proud of what he was doing even when
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: he got interrupted. And that's what we think happened with
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: the double event, is that potentially the first killing was interrupted,
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: he ran after, you know, the fourth victim, and he
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: like an art project to him more so than he
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: I don't think he got thrills out of the actual killing.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: It was the results. Mary Jane Kelly was annihilated and mutilated,
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: and her face was just gone like it was the
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: most violent crime ever. The arguments I've heard for her
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: being canonical five is that, well, he just had more time.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: But the thing is they were all public deaths, not private.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: This was hidden away and Mary we don't know that
• 36:29
  Speaker 2: much about Mary's early life or things about her. Doesn't
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: make any sense that this is the same person. I
• 36:36
  Speaker 2: just don't.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: I've never thought that, and I find really I'm stepping
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: forward a little bit. But there's a murder in New
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: York of Carrie Brown and it happens in a hotel
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: and it's very similar to the murder of Mary Jane
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: Kelly and a room, very violent, very aggressive. It is
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: of a sex worker. You know, it's a very particular
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: type of as every single one of these rippers layings,
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: anyone that's official air quotes. There's just a careful, like
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: particularness about it. There's something just very clean everything about
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: it is putting it on display. When they did it,
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: they did it at night. They did it at a
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: time where there wasn't really many people about, you know,
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: walking the streets of Spittlefields or White Chapel, not at
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: that time in the morning when they're when these events
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: would have happened between half one and three o'clock in
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: the morning, which is roughly the sort of time frame
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: when you look at it, nobody's around. You're lucky if
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: the dock workers are even about. It's not as if
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: he was going to get disturbed. It's not as if
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: he was looking for somewhere to go away and do it.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: He always just kind of found the women in these
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: it always seems to be in nooks and crannies, and
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: then very much puts them on display. Look at what
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: I did, See what I have done. He would put
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: their their personal effect beside the body. He would left
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: the scart up so everyone could see what a good
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: job he'd done. Like he's, like you said, he's proud
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: of this. Why would he then go and hade away
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: and close the door.
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: And those other killings were silent, like nobody really heard
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: anything because I'm thinking, you know, possible strangulation, something along
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: those lines. But with Mary Kelly, we have this like
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: interesting timeline where she seemed walking off with somebody, and
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: we know that her apartment there was a coat hanging
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: over a broken window, probably providing an entryway, and people
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: heard her screaming, but they ignored it because they thought,
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: you know, it's why Shelplton in the Morning's they just didn't,
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: you know, quiet ignoring it whatever that is not somebody
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: behaving quietly, Like bludgeoning a woman to death where she's
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: screaming is not the same as strangling somebody and pulling
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: out their reproductive organs. It's just not the same thing.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: So I'm with you on the EMO just does not
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: match those other for killings. And I've always been bothered
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: by this, and I don't know why.
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: It's the rage, it's it's the fact that there's clearly
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: anger behind it. And that's what always kind of bothered
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: me about this specifically, is there's definitely it feels more
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: personal generally when there's that amount of violent rage with
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: something like this, it is a very personal personal attack
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: to stab that many times, to bludgeon that many times,
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: Like and the minor happened, you knew that person, you
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: wanted to hurt them specifically. To me, that's what it
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: feels like.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: It kind of feels like that to me too. And
• 39:35
  Speaker 2: we do know that like Mary Kelly had a head
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: a person she was involved with I won't say like
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: a boyfriend husband, but they lived together, they had relationships,
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: and she had been seen with him the night before
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: and they were always fighting and gotten kicked out for
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: a flat that they were sharing together for like domestic
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: violence and drinking. So he sees her the night before
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: she dies. I'm always like, well, that feels kind of shady,
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: but you know, and then also just the fact that
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: she was also seen with a man who is finally dressed.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: There are so many contradictory reports about what Mary Jane
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: Kelly was doing at night and it just doesn't make
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: any sense. And I know that people think that this
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: is just an escalation of behavior, but it's not escalation.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: If the mode of killing completely changes, it's just different.
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, It's it's not a step up, it's a complete
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: shark jump escalating you you know, it's the same but
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: more it's like you see that with the rest of
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: the killings. It starts off with you know, sliced open
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: bets are pulled out, and then it's sliced open, stubbed.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: More parts are pulled out, more personal effects are on display.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: Like it gets bigger and more groundiose like every single time,
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: but there's again it's display, it's his art. Here's the
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: extra I've done, learning and getting up little bit more
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: confident every single time. Again, it's meticulous. So when it
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: comes to Mary Jane Kelly, it just feels like such
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: a it just feels off, which is very technicals.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: So say, there's no the forensic evidence from this case
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: has you know, very much long been destroyed and it's
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: impossible to track it down unless there's a confessional letter
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: that comes out at some point. But I think about
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: like the witnesses that were interviewed about her and how
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: they talked about she was with the man and then
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: one guy. It was completely pitch black. But this man
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: they were talking to gives this He calls him Jewish
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: in appearance, which we'd although the anti Semitism was a
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: big problem in White Champel at this time, so that
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: makes us. But he also describes very very strange, very
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: particular things that it would have been, including like the
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: like what was that the color of his eyes or
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: color with eyelashes, and it was dark, it was pitch black, and.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: That is a small gay London like backstreet. It's a
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: dodgy old work code and you're not gonna say those details.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: So that always roused my like, uh huh, okay, where
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: were you at when this happened? Because he's one of
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: the last people who saw her alive, and I'm like, uh,
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: anybody look at this. I think his name was Hutchinson.
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: He was like giving this very detailed description with you know,
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: these very small gas lights, how are you going to
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: see from about forty five feet away? Not to mention,
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: he was like waiting outside of a place for her
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: for forty five minutes, which is also creepy, and he's
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: describing down to the tea what this person was wearing.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: One why were you out there waiting on her too?
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: It's it's too specific, you know, overkill on that one.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: It's just all of these extra details that nobody asked for.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: It's like you know when someone lies and they just
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: I know it was in your a divergent parison, I
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: of giving too many details, but that's a that much
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: even for someone like me on the color of his eyelashes.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: And leaning into because we all know the graffiti whose
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: body was that near one of the victims that said
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: the Jewish are people the men who will not be
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: blamed for nothing, And it's not clear if it was
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: you know, just already there.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: It's misspelled as well, which is like somehow worse, like
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: the spelling is wrong.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I think it's supposed to be Jews, but
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: it's Jay. I think it's Ja, Yes, Jesus. That's oh
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: that that graffiti gets so much conspiracy theory talk going,
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: like the masonry and all that chest. But it's like
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: I'm thinking they're they're banking on the anti Semitism to
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: throw people off their trail, is what it feels like
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: to me.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: That is just that's just plain begotry.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is plain and simple. But like the fact
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: that that always alarmed me because he's he sees her,
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: she asked him for money, and he's like, nah, go on,
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: and he weighs her off, but he waits outside for
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: forty five minutes for her?
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: Why why why are you waiting in the morning? I
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: think six weeks or twelve, which she's like, so many
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: weeks behind on her rent. Yes, for the house, for
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: the room that she's renting, which is in her name,
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: not her like, oh, no partner James Barnett.
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: Barnett is handling James, Yes, Barnett. Sorry, look at Barnett. Yeah,
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: he had been helping her out when he could, and
• 44:05
  Speaker 2: but he had seen her the night before. So that's
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: the other thing. I'm like, So there's there's two people
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: who have seen this woman in the last twenty four
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: to forty eight hours of her life. And imagine knowing
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: about where she lived and how the lock was broken
• 44:17
  Speaker 2: and how she had to, you know, have a little
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: bit of a glass that she covered up with a
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: coat like a curtain, and there's like like somehow they
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: just get in there and go crazy and it's and
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: it's loud, and people hear it, but they're not thinking
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: anything of it because you know, people are drunk in
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: the middle of the night.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: And every one for being like and she's been thrown
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: out of places for having domestic arguments.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: You know exactly.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: There is that little bit of oh, it's just them
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: down the road, it's just them having another fight, it's
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: another lover's quarrel. It's like, oh, she's being dramatic. And
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: especially there was like gangs and stuff going about at
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: the same time, so some people would just not want
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: to get involved in that.
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think you mean, you're hearing people scream
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: because there's a lot of crime and you're used to it.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: I don't think they're like if it's only like a
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: scream and you hear a thud and you're like, oh, okay,
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: whatever and go back to sleep, they're not thinking. They're
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: not gonna that doesn't like I think of the roommate
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: in this recent Idaho killing who didn't think anything was
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: amiss when she heard a thud. It's like, oh, it's
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: a party house. Yes, you're now here all the time.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: It's kind of the same thing. Just like they're they're
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: hearing screams and everything constantly around the clock, and they
• 45:25
  Speaker 2: there wouldn't have been a reason to automatically assume that
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: anything was a miss in that regard. I know that's
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: a lot of people are like, why why did nobody
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: come help because that was just the East End.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just noise. That's the white noise they went to.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: Somebody's being punched and somebody's screaming.
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: That is whitechapel as Mr Dinna Mother's court.
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: Like that's just how things wear. I mean when you
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: think of who's o staying in those cottages and you know,
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: everything that's going on out with that, it's just noise.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: And then by whatever stupid a cloak in the morning,
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: you're gonna have the warehouse workers and the dolt workers
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: umblent about and going and anyway, you're gonna hear them
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: going past, like like you're gonna have noise pretty consistently.
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: It's gonna be you know, a surprise for there not
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: to be any kind of happenings happening.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: I mean what you're used to.
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: And I mean I say that just like you know,
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: like I was talking about the roommate, just when you're
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: around those noises and like you're in a college town
• 46:20
  Speaker 3: or you're in a bad part of town, you're gonna
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: hear stuff and it's just like mind your business or
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: you know, lock your door and don't pay any attention
• 46:28
  Speaker 3: to it.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: That's just the way, you're taught to keep yourself safe
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: and just I'm gonna stay in my room. I'm not investigating,
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: So there was no reason for them to think anything
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: was amiss until they find her the next morning. Yeah,
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: it's very graphic discovery.
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, if anyone is gonna look up those Crimson photos,
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: don't do it before bed either. You.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: Mary Jane had no face when this was over with.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: And I'm pretty sure now that having looked up these photos,
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: I'm probably on some sort of government watch list.
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: At this point, I maintained I have I have somebody
• 47:02
  Speaker 4: from the CIA and someone from like the m I
• 47:04
  Speaker 4: five just watching me because some of my Sara Chestree
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: is for sure.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: If most search history ever gets brought up for any reason,
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: I'm a I'm a goner with some of the stuff
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: I've looked up from history. But I remember the first
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: time I saw this, and I was in my twenties,
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: I was nauseous. I was just about to throw up
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: because I have never seen anything. And they're not even
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: this is bad in black and white. This is bad
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: black and white, which tells you that's bad when you
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: can see how bad it is in a black and
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: white photo. I mean blood soaked room. This was it
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: feels personal, and there's.
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: Just bets of her are just hanging off, like the
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: wea that her I think, isn't it one of one
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: of her joints is basically like it's just held it mind,
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: like a sinew or attendon or something.
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: It's very and you look very aggressive, Yeah, very aggressive.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: And you can see her eye sockets with the goal.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: You're seeing her her skull because her face is it's
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: one of the most graphic things I've ever seen. But
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: to me, comparing that to anybody else in this you know,
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: Canonical five, the group, nothing like that. It's not He
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: wasn't Jack the smasher. He was Jack the Ripper, and
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: that always bothers me. And it's just because the other ones.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: He's not like destroying the face necessarily. He's not doing
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: anything except you know, disemboweling.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: The throat gets sliced.
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they like they throw so it's quiet and then
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: he kills them quickly. It's not as practical. Yeah, it's
• 48:37
  Speaker 2: a practical you know process of let's let me kill
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: you as quickly as possible so I can do what
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: I want to do, which is take out your uterus
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: or whatever versus Mary Jane, who.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Is slashed, She's she just pummeled.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Makes sense.
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: There's nothing smart about it, like and that's just like
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: everything about it is so precise with all the other
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: all the other vicctims and this is just so much
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: going on, which it's a juxtapossession to the rest of
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: the killings.
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: And you think about when they found Barnet, Joseph Barnett,
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: her partner. He had to identify her body, but he
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: could only do it by the eyes and the year.
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: That's all he could do is say, yeah, that's her.
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: The color of her dyed hair Hannah or something so
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: like red hair. I think it's like she I think
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: there was something about her putting a there was like
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: a red hue to it. So she put like a
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: wosh so just to could make her seem more.
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and he had to like that was the only
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: thing he was able to identify her as because you can't.
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: The mutilation there was the most and most people are
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: trying to say that's because he had the time. He
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: had time. He's in a room where nobody is going
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: to walk in, and.
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: Why wouldn't mutilation be more careful? Yeah, Like if he
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: had the time. Why would he not very carefully dissected
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: harm entire body in a very careful fashion. Why didn't
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: he take his tamee if he had the tape? Why
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: this is clearly rushed, because there's no way you stab
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: somebody slowly like that, not with the monitor in which
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: her face her face.
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: Is gone, it's just gone. There's no joy, it's.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: Just sort of hanging.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: It's it's it's one of the worst things I have
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: ever seen. Of course, he is doing like all the
• 50:25
  Speaker 2: things to the you know, or like stabbing and the
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: you know, cutting her intestines, but it's not the surgical
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: precision we were getting accustomed to in these old flings.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: And if you had the time, and that is your
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: m O, why isn't he just performing a surgery? Why
• 50:41
  Speaker 2: isn't he just doing it with that time he has
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: instead of unless she did something to make him angry
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: or something. But it's just very, very unlike what we saw.
• 50:51
  Speaker 2: So I have always had this little gut instinct, which
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: I guess that's a terrible phrasing right now, gut instinct,
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: But it's instinct. It was somebody else it was not.
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: And it's personal. It's personal. Every single other one of
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: the killings, they were just convenient more than anything else,
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: And this just feels like a very very personal killing.
• 51:12
  Speaker 1: I always think whoever came in came when she was asleep,
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: because her clothes are neatly folded like on her we thing, or.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: A medical examiner or somebody who was like, this is
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: not performed by somebody who had training.
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is not This is not a by somebody
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: who knows what they're doing.
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: Here's like a butcher would have done a better job exactly.
• 51:31
  Speaker 2: And he's like, yeah, it's not the same as the
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: other cases where it was very surgical and anatomical. This
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: was just hate. This was pure hate, And I don't
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: know how somebody would escalate that far out of their
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: normal mo of killing somebody.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: Again, to me, it's very similar to the murder of
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: Carrie Brown if you look it up. It's just she's
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: in this hotel and she's just completely I mean, it's
• 51:56
  Speaker 1: not as aggressive as Mary James was, but I still
• 52:00
  Speaker 1: have I always have the feeling that Mary Jane. This
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: is just my personal opinion that someone came in most
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: she was sleeping and they were getting ready to like
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: stop her anyway. But she wakes up like, that's my
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: kind of theory, and there's a little bit of a
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: and this is what causes that little bit of a rage.
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: I see a little bit of a rage, that massive rage.
• 52:18
  Speaker 5: She wakes up and this person's like hell no, stop
• 52:21
  Speaker 5: stop stop, stepped up like no, I mean, these are
• 52:24
  Speaker 5: hardy Victorian women, like at least someone who is known
• 52:27
  Speaker 5: for this. And if she had defensive wounds, you wouldn't know.
• 52:31
  Speaker 5: By the time she was just smushed like she's practically
• 52:36
  Speaker 5: liquefied in.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: Places, you know.
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: So it never made sense to me, I know, and
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: every time I never want to. I will never think
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: Jack the Ripper was a woman. I know that's a theory.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: I will never the strength to battle. But these because
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: these women could have fought back against a woman pretty easily.
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: They're all very, like you said, hardy women. And she
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: had held her own in fights with Barnett before, she
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: had made many and many a quarrel. I'm with you.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: I think she was surprise. I think you know, it
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: was she woke up maybe or.
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: Maybe she didn't wake up, and the person was just
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: full of rage anyway, But it was just such a
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: particular it's just there's so much anger behind it. Bothers
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: me so.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: Much too, And I love that we bonded over this
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: because Yeah, there's the most frustrating thing about the Jack
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: the Ripper case is that there is no way to know.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: Now too much time has passed, it will never be solved.
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think they tried to say it was someone.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: Oh they try and do it every four years, so like,
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: oh it's Humphrey. Oh it was secret. Oh god, if
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: I had to hear another thing about secret to be
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: squear to god.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: I kind of enjoyed the secret stuff. I don't think no.
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: I think it's because I was like, oh, this is interesting,
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: and then it was like this is the reason why,
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: and I went, oh, this makes sense from like a
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: criminological perspective, and I'm like this is great. But then
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: it became like this is definitely the thing, and then
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: this is because of the scarf, and then the DNA
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: is rare, except it wasn't rare.
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: And it's just not real and it's also degraded and sicker.
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: It just strikes me as like before he's a true
• 54:04
  Speaker 2: crime fan, before a true crime podcast existed, and he's
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: just like getting an outlet with his art. So I
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: don't know, and that is the most frustrating thing that
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: anybody who says they solved it is full of shit
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: because we will never know who did it.
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: Nobody has solved anything. We're never going to solve it.
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: And like, part of me just feels like I go
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: through this whole period of where I go, I don't,
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: I don't give a I don't give a fuck. I
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: don't I don't care who he is at this point,
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: I don't care, Like I just get these stages.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: Where I'm just like, That's why when I did the series,
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: I did a video on each woman because I'm like, look,
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: we can talk about the suspects, but the list of
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: suspects is exponentially long, and you know, it's a billion
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: conspiracy theories out there on who it was. But the
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: fact is that whoever it was, if it was more
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: than one person, who it was, five women just out
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: and killed. And that's that's the story, not mysterious man
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: with the hat.
• 54:56
  Speaker 1: And it's like, why why does this one person more
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: than the five lives or more he snuffed out?
• 55:03
  Speaker 2: That's why that book, the book five is so five. Yeah,
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: because you're you're talking about their lives and who they were.
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: Mary Kelly had this like fascinating background. I mean, we
• 55:11
  Speaker 2: don't know everything about these women just because of record
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: keeping and you know, their personal life, and a lot
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: of it is anecdotal, so we can't really verify how
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: much of it is true. But she's one who actually
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: she was like traveling around Europe. She she when she
• 55:25
  Speaker 2: worked as a sex work she was actually like at
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: one point, I'm very very high.
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It was very strange because she went from like
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: this very high area and then ended up in the
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: spectal fields.
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: Alcoholism and the addiction that was there also played.
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: He's part of it.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: And that's that whole concept of the less dead as
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: they call it, which is the people who are going
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: to not be missed as much. A's why we see
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: that today now with oh yeah, we.
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: See it everywhere. I mean, that's where I don't know
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: if you ever listened to the podcast The Full Lane.
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: I have heard it's good. I haven't listened to it though.
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: It is very good, and it's old to do with
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: all of these people that have just basically fallen into
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: the crack in this in this area, and it's just
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: one of those things always more interested in those stories.
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: And you see that with the like missing murdered Indigenous
• 56:09
  Speaker 2: women and two spear people in the United States and
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: in Canada, with the that that's those cases are not
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: getting investigated the way they should. So that is a
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: lot of what you see here with Mary Jane Kelly
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: and these other Chapman all these women because they they
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: were considered less dead because of what they did for
• 56:26
  Speaker 2: a living or they're sit I know there's some questioning
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: of whether or not they were all sex workers or
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: if it was just like a casual sex worker thing
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: treating favors, and it shouldn't matter. It's just that somebody
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: was going around and praying on women that they thought
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: and they got away with it, and that's the most
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: creating part of the whole thing. And while I love
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: listening to theories, I think that that is the focus,
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: is that somebody just hated women, and that should be
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: the focus and we should be honoring them. But that
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: being said, some of the conspiracy theories are insane. People
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: of them was like Queen Victoria did it his grandson. Oh,
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: but that was.
• 57:04
  Speaker 1: The worst one was that people that Queen Victoria actually
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: did it herself.
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: I was like.
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: What Vitoria had. Really, you think somebody wouldn't have noticed
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: horror walking down the street. Really?
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, your majesty. Let me just know I did
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: love the Oh the movie Murder by Decree with the
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: Christopher Plumber where that's the Sherlock Holmes and that's the
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: theory that they're running with the Mason the Freemasons TI
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: very entertaining, but that theory is so silly. It's me
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: number one. She would you know, deny, deny, deny any
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: sort of you know, relationship between a sex worker and
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: her grandson if that were the case. And too it's
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: just the royals. Don't get her hands started. We know better.
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: But also there's like the the HH Holmes theory with
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: him being one of the most prolific serial killers in
• 57:52
  Speaker 2: America in history with his murder hotel. He's a fascinator too.
• 57:56
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of rumors that's him, but they have
• 57:57
  Speaker 2: to debunked that time and time again that he was.
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: So you keep seeing this come up and like.
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: It's this different as well, like.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: He's a different m when he was not killing for pleasure,
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: he was killing to sell the skeletons to make money.
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: Terrifying that that was a thing in American history at all.
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: But I mean it's just like, hmm, let's dig up
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: a grave or body snatching was a very lucrative business
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: for h. Holmes, but he totally enjoyed the torment. But
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: I don't think it's the same thing at all.
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: And h Holmes, it's like Chapman as well, like the
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: Lambath poisoner. It's like, yeah, the poisoner isn't about to
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: go gutting people.
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: He's not a ripper.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: It's not apper.
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: I'm glad we have bonded over that because I'm just
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: like I thought I was the only one who thought that,
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: And it's such a part of like Mary Jane Killy
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: is such a per ripper lore that some people are
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: like hesitant to let it go. But I'm like, the people.
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: Get so mad about it when you challenge, you know,
• 58:51
  Speaker 1: I hate, I actually hate the term rapparol just so
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: much because because as someone who like when I was
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: much younger, when I was like a teenager, I was
• 58:59
  Speaker 1: like I wanted to be like a ripperologist. I loved Like, clearly,
• 59:02
  Speaker 1: I have issues because I have an obsession with historical
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: true quig something's wrong because I was just so into
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: like ripperology, I was into everything about it. Was just fascinating. Again,
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: a lot of it is because it's unsolved, you know,
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: and there's so many theories and there's so many options,
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: and you know, all these other factors come into it.
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: And I was kind of obsessed. I say kind of.
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: I was, in fact obsessed. My father bought me a book,
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: a case book of Jack the Ripper.
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: It had like photos, a kid's book of Jack.
• 59:30
  Speaker 1: No, no, no no. My father bought me, at twelve years old,
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: an adult book with pictures.
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: It was an adult book. I thought somebody out there
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: was making a children's book. I was like, what did
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: you imagine was like that? Oh?
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: My Rapper and white chapel.
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: It's like a golden book. And this isn't my knife.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: It's too shiny, shiny, let me get it all bloody,
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: all those little touch you.
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: This isn't that. It's too rough. I think we may
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: be onto something. If it doesn't exist, we should write it.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, they haven't we have come up with a
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: great children's book. Let me tell you. Penguin Random House.
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 2: They have a donor. They have a donner party. You
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: know full out cannibalism children's book. One of my friends
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 2: showed it to me, and I was like, that's actually
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 2: brilliant party.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: They have a good time, you know.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: I think that this is one of those things that
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 2: all women get into, not because of the violence toward
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: the women, but because they're like they're so obsessed with
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 2: the story and like why, I don't I don't even
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: know exactly why, but I feel like we all are
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: like protective of these victims when we look back at
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: it now, Like, you know, with the older we get,
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 2: the more we realize that that is the focus and
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: not this. Yeah, and we have given a moniker. He's
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: got good branding and that's about but really, other than that,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: you know, he may have still been operating somewhere else
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: he made but we will never know.
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: And we'll never know, like because violence against women then
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: and who knows even now, Like it was never seen
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 1: as a big deal. So when he escalated to the
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: point of the first canonical victim, we have no idea
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: who came before, right, Like the worst thing is about
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: the Ripper's layings is that they're not even they weren't
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: even the only ones happening in London at the time,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: you had the Torso murders, you had the west Ham vanishings.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 1: You know, you had all of these different like killers
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: running at the same time. Like the current place where
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: Scotland Yard is now, they found a Torso there, like
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: it's and you.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 2: Can see it on the Jack the River walking tours.
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 2: Thank you right there and here was a body right
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: there and you know, yeah, part of me felt like
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: I should be ashamed of them, but it was actually
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 2: very interesting. But yeah, we walked right by the New
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 2: Scotland You're orso there, Oh wonderful, thank you.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: Not related, but yeah, so like there was even then,
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: several killers were running at the same time. It's not
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: wasn't you You just had better publicity and the penny.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: Why do you think that Jack is the one that
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: everybody's focused on? Just the mist I could never really
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: put a good answer to that myself.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: It's a very strange thing. I think any any sort
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: of unsolved crime people obsess over because every everybody wants
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: an answer, like it's a It's a very human thing
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: to want to resolve something, to have the information to
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: find out who did it. And I think some people
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: are just so determined to be the parents who feckles
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: out as well.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of men, especially, I've noticed it's always men.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 2: They think they know, they think they know, and it
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: would not hold up in a court. I mean, the
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: forensic evidence long gone. A lot of it is, you know,
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: no eyewitnesses, there's no DNA on bodies. They're not going
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: to be exuming any of these victims, and I'd say
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: most of them weren't even very well preserved in terms
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: of being you know, yeah, the funeral director because you're
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: not going to see that. You're just not going to
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: see that that would have been buried. Their forensic evidence
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: is gone. You cannot prove this, and it's fine to theorize,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: but a lot of it just gets to the point
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: where people are so passionate that they're correct that it
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: makes me crazy. I'm like, you're not, we don't know,
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: we will just never know. But that's not the point.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And then you've got the people who refuse to
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: hear anything out with their their belief system at all.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: Huh.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: I wonder what that sounds like. But you know, they're
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: just so, they're just so it's like a horse with
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: a blinkers on and they're staring down this road. They're
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: not seeing Anthony either side. It doesn't matter what's coming in.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: There's no peripheral there, and they're just so determined.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: There seems to be a personality type where they're like,
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: my theory is right, and they stay so gung ho
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: to that theory that that becomes their personality, Like the
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: Kaminsky people with the shaw and I'm like, ah, you
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 2: mean there was DNA on the shawl of a sex worker?
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: Will all be damned? Oh?
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: What really?
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: Kill horror? Yeah, No, it's just I.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: Think that reparologists specifically do not care about the women.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: No, they don't.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: They don't care about It's like they don't care about
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: what caused them to be there, or why they were
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: in there at the time and what led to their deaths,
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 1: or you know, the fact that they were actual human
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: beings with thoughts and emotions and families and everything else
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: that went with.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: The One of my favorite podcasts, I think you know
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: this Bummy's Last podcast and The Left, and they did
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: a fantastic Jack the Ripper series, and I really appreciate
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 2: it because it's one of the first time I've ever
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: heard men doing the story where they acknowledged that this
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 2: was the less dead in action at that principle of
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: they were sex workers so people didn't care as much.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: But then they also focused a lot of information coming
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: about these women, and I think that's the most important
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: thing to do, because at the end of the day,
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: it doesn't matter who did it. That guy's a piece
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: of garbage. It's that five women lash trash, trash Jack's trash.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: That is trash umput mount a t sha oh merch.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: Yes, but them, and then those five women lost their
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: real lives for no reason except for nasty, misogynistic douchebaggery.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: That's that's what I'm douchebaggery, and that's the saddest thing
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: out of this whole thing. But yeah, as as for
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: Mary Jean Kelly, I don't I have I have thoughts
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: on who it is, but I'm like, Okay.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: I'm convinced it had to be I'm convinced I had
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: to be the on either the on off partner or
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: that creepy stalker dude. I'm sorry, but it's just I.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: Really think it's Hutchinson. But the boyfriend being around, the
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: partner being around also had me like he was around
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 2: the day before she got killed.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: But just yeah, just saying, I'm just saying, if you're waiting,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 1: it's usually usually the boyfriend did it, and if it's
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: not the.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: Creepy stalker who was waiting for her forty five minutes,
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: Like I said, the.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: Ten bells just waiting, just just hanging outside, the ten bells,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 1: just waiting.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: I just saw her, she waited outside for it and
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: watched her walk off with somebody, why were you doing that?
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: You do mean, it's it's cold, cold night. Why would
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: you be standing out there like freezing your balls off?
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: What was that about?
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: Watched her go home, he said with why are you
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: following her home? What are you doing that? That's the
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: alarm bells for me In that case, I leaned towards Hutchinson.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: But like I say, we'll never know. And it's just
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: an absolute abysmal loss of life for no reason except
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: for men.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: Men. Men.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: Men.
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: It's always men.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: It's always men. And no one will ever be able
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: to commit me check the rippers a woman. Nobody.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: I'm sorry, No, I mean it doesn't there's no way,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 1: and it's always and you know what the funny thing is,
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: every every theory about it it's just it's all misogyny,
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: even because every concept of a woman doing it is
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 1: like it was a medwave, it was someone whose husband
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: cheated on her, someone who could not have children. It's
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: like all of those are very misogynistic like reasons. And
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: I'm like, that's generally not a reason that women would kill,
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: and women are usually more careful killers.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 2: Poisonous storia. I would buy Queen Victoria before I would
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 2: buy any of those other reasons. Everybody had ciphl ass
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 2: back then. That was just the national pastime.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: Everyone had the pox and their brains were starting to
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: rote because of it. Like it's like it's an actual thing.
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: Look it up. Their brains were rotting, just Victorian brains.
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: Victorian brains running away. But that's it's it's infuriating to me.
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: And I felt like, yeah, I'm so glad we bonded
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 2: over there because I felt like I was one of
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: the few people in the world like I don't.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: Care, I'm I'm with you because I remember I posted
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: a video about it and you were just like yes
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: in the comments, just so many exclamation marks, and I'm like, fankally,
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: someone agrees with me.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: Just like it just felt so wrong, and just Mary
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: Kelly gets so and she also gets one of them.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: She's one of the more romanticized of the five because
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 2: she's the star of all the conspiracy theories, because she
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: was very beautiful apparently and very just more fitting victim.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: So she gets put into these because the youngest wasn't
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 2: she He was the youngest she was Apparently she was
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: a high class sex worker, you know, a higher level
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 2: uppressional and sex worker in France from where she where
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 2: she changed her name to Marie Jeannette, which I was.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: Like, Okay, I mean I get it.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 4: I liked.
• 1:08:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, she was very popular, but then she had this
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 2: fall from grace and no, it's like because she's because
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: she's the more beautiful of all the victims probably, and
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 2: she's getting these judged by that. You see this romanticizing
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 2: of her, putting her in the center. Like you know,
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 2: you've seen the from Hell movies, I'm sure and I have.
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: And even the writer of the books, sorry, even older
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: the book said that, you know, he wrote us to
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: deal with the trauma of his own mother's more dark.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: Like that's a lot to unpack for him.
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 1: Sorry, we have much time to talk about this.
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 2: This is have you Have you tried therapy, buddy? But
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, dear God.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: Have romanticizing have you considered?
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 2: The answers usually know they haven't, but it's let me
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: just let me just drag down the legacy of another woman.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: Romanticize this beyond compared to it, to the point where
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: she's clearly part of a conspiracy theory because there's no
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: other reason you feel, not like domestic violence or just
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 2: sexual violence and sadism.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: It's just not as if this happened, you know, for
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: electoral centuries. I mean obviously millennia, but really, I mean
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 1: even like even when you got like the Yorkshire Repper
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: slayings and things like that, which happened on the Blackout Killer,
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 1: and it's consistent. It's not as if it's stopped. These
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: crimes keep happening.
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 2: It's just tell as old as time. And at the
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: end of the day, it's the women that's the story.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 2: They had. They lost their lives for literally no reason
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: other than whatever.
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: Pleasure because men wanted to hurt them.
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they want to hurt them, and they thought because
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 2: of who they are. But I think it's just important
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: for history creators when we're talking about it not just
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 2: an and ripperologist. If they're listening, listen to me.
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: If you are listening and you aren't sending me.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 2: Death nuts, yeah right, not only mean TikTok comments. I
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: mean that's that should be the focus. That should always
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: be the focus for those five women. And I was
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 2: so grateful when that book came out, the five that
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 2: I was like, thank God, because now that's what we
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: should be focusing on.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm always there was a turning point for me.
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know when it was, and it was because
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: I do follow a load of a load of historical
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: true crime. Specifically, I find it easier to digest in
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: a way, I think just because it is so far
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: back and because history is kind of my thing. It's
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: very much we should always see crime as victim first,
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: like victim first, perpetrator second, although sometimes that's the same person.
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: The victim and the perpetrator are the same person, which
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: is another whole thing to deal with.
• 1:10:50
  Speaker 2: Switch it around reversal, which.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: Is as I like to call it, women who poisoned
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: their husbands at the turn of the century, they tend
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: to be both victims and perpetrators. Is utually a reason
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: they give them ours neck.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's that's the only thing I have ever
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: taken away from this. Not that, because at the end
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 2: of the day, it does not matter who Jack the
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 2: Ripper was. He is pathetic and we should not. I
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: think it's fine to theorize. I think it's fine, but
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 2: that should never, never, never be the focus of this
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: entire thing.
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: Focus the women.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 2: And don't look up those pictures at work.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: At work, not on a shared computer where you're being
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: surveyed in any way, because.
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: Not before med and just not in public transport where
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 2: people can.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: Don't do it.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: No, nothing like that. No keep that, keep that.
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: It's just like do it. Don't look at any any
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 1: old time crime photos. Don't look at any of them
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 1: at all anywhere, no private alone, preferably daylight, just incognito mode.
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: We should stop giving stop stop giving them ideas.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: It's probably all right, Okay, that was fun. I think
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 2: it was fun.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: That was fun. Something like this again in the future,
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: when I'm slightly more.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: Probably when you do the Yorkshire Ripper, the Yorkshire Ripper
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 2: of the Blackout Killer, I'll just start I'll just start
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: finding weird like emailing you these times. We're gonna look
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 2: up I've been looking up the carry Brown because I
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: wasn't familiar to I mean, I had heard about it,
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: but I hadn't seen It's more, it's pretty similar, yeh think.
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 2: I think it's.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: It's closer to the Mary Jane Canty slang than any
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: of the White Chapel.
• 1:12:37
  Speaker 2: She's kind of positioned the same way too, in terms
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 2: of the head being to the side and body even. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: that's interesting.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: Interesting, it's very interesting just to say bar for a second.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: It's they kept calling the person that was in the
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: room with her frenchie, But Frenchie was a term for
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: anybody foreign. It wasn't necessarily French. Could have been an Italian,
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: could have been German, could have been Belgium, could have
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: been Dutch. It doesn't matter.
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 2: They were just Frenchy frenchie.
• 1:13:03
  Speaker 1: And then when you think of let's talk about again,
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: but the concept of who who Jack the Ripper was
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 1: a lot of the original theories they either revolve around
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: misogyny or just general xenophobia and anti semitism, because because
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: when you think about Whitechapel was an area for immigrants,
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: really people just kind of ended up there and that's
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: where a lot of it you know, leather Apron became
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: Jack the Ripper because of spring hailed Jack by Charles Dickens.
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: It's a whole thing, Pennal Tentles, dammit.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 2: I love the story of spring Hill, Great Wing. That's
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 2: too good. But now and you'll see that the people
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 2: who were pushing used like the anti semitism and xenophobia
• 1:13:46
  Speaker 2: against people.
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: To accuse them of it's just because it's the whole
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: thing of like the whole concept of copy and paste
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: comes from. Like they would literally cut bits at the newspaper,
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 1: stick it on to the new printer and they would
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: just that's how they would reprint because you know, if
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: you've got they didn't have, you know, reporters in every area.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: It was genuinely like someone from the Times would come down,
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: but you know they have their own vicatory and bias
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: and prejudice, you know, And that's very much seen and
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: what was there, and a lot of the information we
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: have is like from the illustrated police news and that
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: was just like let's draw pictures of what we think happened.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: It's a whole it's just a whole mess. Really. It's
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: like my actual, my actual area of specialties that specially
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: is expertise. Jesus, I can't say words today. Is the
• 1:14:34
  Speaker 1: rise of sensationalism in the use of Prentice propaganda in
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 1: the late modern period.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: So like yellow journalism is just the one of my passions,
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: just because the fact that I talk about it a
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: lot and got to talk about the Titanic, because what
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: happened after that was that Hurst really had it out
• 1:14:53
  Speaker 2: for Jay Bruce is may they refuting. I don't know
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: what caused the feud. I would love to know, but
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 2: he immediately like starts lamb basting him and he's like
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: he should be charged with murder like in cartoons versus
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: mad and I'm like, bro, that's not that's not journalist.
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: Chill chill. So you see that so much, it's kinda it's.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: Just like printing it and just like what we can Okay,
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: why do you make this up? Yeah, basically it was
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: just consistently like like that kind of situation. And that's
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: why I found really fascinating because like and also they
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: would just reporters used to show up on crime scenes
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: with the police. We would just be able to tell everything,
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: so you would get all these details that you wouldn't
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: get another places.
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: As well, which is that's why it's so tempered and
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 2: controlled now between especially in the States, with law enforcement
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: hires media liaisons to deal with the press, and then
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 2: they have these things that they're gonna keep quiet. They're
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: not gonna let you get on scene.
• 1:15:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because they want to solve the crime. I mean,
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: you'd hope, you hope they want to solve the cry.
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: They do too, but yeah, it's that the press is thankful.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: Come a long way from that. But at the time, Yeah,
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: it was just you could just say what you wanted.
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, back then it could just you could just print
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 1: whatever you wanted, didn't matter. Nobody was gonna call you want.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: It, buy a newspaper and just destroy your enemies. That's
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: that's how that works. And that's how it at the time.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 1: Like when you go back to that sort of in
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 1: the Victorian era, like some newspapers would run like three
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 1: weeks and then just end. Like newspapers would exist for
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 1: like a fortnight and go away again like a month.
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 1: Sometimes they would just come and go because people would
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: just buy newspapers and then try sale them and then
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: not sell them, or you know, things would just go awry.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: It was just it's funny. It's just funny, like they
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 1: would just come and go so it some things just
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: wouldn't necessarily have to be correct anyway being.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 2: A journalist now, like and you know, we have this
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: whole different set of ethical guidelines now, but like sometimes
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: I just get so, I'm like, how did they even
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: get away with half the stuff? They like?
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, some of the stuff you re making up?
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 2: It's just they did what they wanted to, and they
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 2: could just say I did a source and you didn't
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: have to identify who the source was or you you know,
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 2: you just literally lie and it's fine, I have a source,
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: do you I am the source? Hell?
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: What kill hand? They We're just like doing hand puppets.
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 2: Just like, yes, what do you think wack is bancas?
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 1: Oh, yes, I guess.
• 1:17:34
  Speaker 2: That, Steph Loop. Yeah. It's just the sensationalism with like
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 2: the Victorian period and you know, Edwardian stuff and eight
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 2: from like the eighteen seventies to the like nineteen thirties, forties, fifties.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: Was just yeah, I think once once it started heading
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: the sexties, things started evening out a little bit.
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: But even then it was now, you know the press,
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 2: I mean I could say that.
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: I say that as if the Daily Mail doesn't exist, like.
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 2: We have Fox here. It's fine, Fox and Friends, the Enquirer. No,
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 2: that's just anyway, nothing required. My grandmother used to keep
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 2: those all piled up by the bed, and I'm like,
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 2: oh okay, or like the weekly World News with all
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: the alien stories, that's good stuff. But yeah, alas, we
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: shall never know who Jack the Ripper is, sadly.
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: And I don't think it really matters how he was,
• 1:18:26
  Speaker 1: because he.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 2: Was just a dick, trash, trash, Jack trash. Buy those
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: shirts on our merch doth.
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 1: Get it on a sticker, put it on your cup.
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 2: Jack the Ripper was trash.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 4: I like it.
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: Hey, Katie, that was fun.
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 1: Oh wait, all right, thank you Melissa for joining me.
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: You are so welcome. That was fun. We'll find something else.
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: Just remember Jack's trash.
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: Jack is trash, all right. And I am gonna end
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 1: the snow a great uh. That's my happy pigeon sound
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: because I could not figure out how to do a
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: sound effect. I just don't have any only and I'm
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: very tired because I'm editing this so late at night.
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 1: And that was the wonderful Melissa Fair Lady from the
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: God's Favorites podcast and on TikTok. If you're on History Talk,
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: you know her. If you're not on History Talk, go
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 1: watch her. That is your recommendation for me this week.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: Watch her tiktoks and her Instagram and listen to her podcast.
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 1: It's fantastic. So what I am going to say though,
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: before we end this episode is I want to talk
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: about one apologize if the sound equality is poor because
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 1: this is my first time doing a two person thing
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: and trying to edit my end so h And Secondly,
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 1: although we don't know Mary Jane Kelly's I don't know history,
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 1: her real life, her her real name, because all the
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: clues point to the fact that we don't. However, we
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 1: can at least take solace in the fact that who
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 1: the White Chapel Killer was, whoever jack may be, is
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 1: someone called jack assd the Ripper. Here's the thing about
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 1: jack Ass the Ripper is that we don't know his
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 1: real name. Whatever he was trying to do, whatever he
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 1: was trying to prove, whatever innate hatred he had that
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: he was trying to push out in the world, his
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 1: name is not known. The man wielding the knife we
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: don't know who that is, and frankly, I think we
• 1:20:29
  Speaker 1: shouldn't find out because I don't think it matters. I
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 1: don't think he deserves to have his name known, whether
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 1: an infamy or not. And at the end of the day,
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: whoever did kill Mary Jane and these other women, whether
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: they were the same person, which I doubt, or multiple people,
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 1: which I genuinely believe, then they are sad. But theic
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: men who hate women and they're not worthy of our time.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: Worthy over time is learning the stories of people who suffered,
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: who dealt with this, who had to live in these conditions.
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 1: And they say history is repeating. You know, those who
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 1: don't learn history are doomed to repeat it. And that's right,
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: and we need to make sure we don't repeat it
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 1: because people, society, everybody deserves better, the marginalized on the
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: fringes of society, people who are pushed down, minorities, they
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: deserve better. And if you don't believe that, you are
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: part of the problem. Now go listen to Melissa and
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: her amazing stuff. I'm going to go now because it's
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 1: very late and I need to get to sleep because
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: I need to edit this and it's so so long.
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 1: But I am going to say adios or of where
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: is LL, my friends, Bye bye,