Latest / Stronger Business Together / E19 Change Without Authority with Angus Landman
Transcript
- Granger Forson: So this is the Stronger Business Together podcast where business owners learn from each other. No theory, no gurus, just real journeys and overcoming real hurdles. Today, I'm joined by Angus Landman who runs the practice rooms. And like any business owner, he's in that middle of building things, fixing things building something that really matters to him. So Angus, welcome. Thank you for spending your time with us today. We're on a mission to make business owners stronger together. has helped you, please comment, like and share and follow us on whatever platform you're using. About 60 % of our audience done that yet. And these small actions will help us reach more business owners just like you. conversation as a guest, ANGUS LANDMAN: Thank you. Lovely to be here. Granger Forson: Or if you have a hurdle question for us to tackle, do reach out to us at info at strongerbusinesstogether.com. Now, go make this week successful and we'll see you next time. Cheers! Brilliant! So, Act 1, your business. So, in plain English, what does your business do? ANGUS LANDMAN: In plain English, we run therapy centers with rooms for therapists. therapists arrive and they have spaces to work in in different tranches of time. It's incredibly convenient for them. I'm coming from a psychotherapeutic background, so I'm a psychotherapist myself, and I'm also a a property. I mean, prior to that, I was in the property business. So I understand the commercial property world. So I'm quite an unusual character in that I've got a foot in both camps. So it sort of happened randomly as often these things do. I found myself in that place where I had some space, some rooms, someone suggested to me, why don't you, you know, why don't you do them up and open a therapy center. I say someone, was actually my sister-in-law who I keep reminding that it was her idea that seated this in me. And so it's began with a few rooms in Bath and has sort of evolved to the point where we now have 32 centers across the country. Now, I'm very particular about these spaces. is really important to me how they are maintained, the quality of them. I ⁓ have any rooms that I wouldn't personally work in and my standards are quite high. You know, it's really important to us to have things like self-contained access so that we're private. when you walk, when the therapist walks in one of our doors through the door, that becomes a sacred space and no one other than therapists. come in, all our therapists are members, we know them all, they've met our practice managers, they are appropriately qualified and indemnified and what's also important to us is building a community. We now have sort of 1800 approaching 2000 therapists working out of the rooms, which is a big community and we believe collectively that we're stronger together. You know, that it's important that we look after each other and that we look after ourselves as a community. And personally, you know, I felt it was somewhat needed to step up to kind of do that and say this work is too important to be done in grotty little rooms with no windows or no soundproofing or where people don't understand the practice. We need to be surrounded by professional colleagues and that's the community that emerges. So in a nutshell, that's it. Granger Forson: Yeah. Fantastic. Wow. love the origin I love ⁓ the and the passion that you've put into creating and developing the business and the of it. I love that community feel and people coming together to be stronger together. Brilliant. ⁓ So you about origins of starting, apart from your Sister law saying, didn't you do What was the original spark? What got it going? ANGUS LANDMAN: I'll tell you, as a psychotherapist, a long time ago, I used to work at the Bristol Cancer Center and used to lead groups there. And ⁓ one the inspirations of that was that it would bring a team of therapists under one roof, recognizing that individuals need a selection of different and professions to to accommodate them, should we say. And I talk about talking therapy and holistic practice. That we're not, it's not just about talking, it's also about health and healing for the whole. And the inspiration for that came from working there and experiencing what it was to work as a team and feeling that psychotherapists alone are quite isolated in a way and that they need the body, they need the body workers, they need reflexologists, acupuncturists, aromatherapists, nutritionists, et cetera. ⁓ And we that at the Bristol Cancer Centre. So the vision there was the whole being. And I felt that there ⁓ was an opportunity for me to step out and and create spaces where such work was possible. ⁓ And my commitment, you know, as a psychotherapist from a deep spiritual place is ⁓ the emergence consciousness, for building for facilitating and enabling work to get out into the world, whatever that takes. And not for me determine that, but just to keep Granger Forson: Hmm. ANGUS LANDMAN: on track, keep working to keep heading in that direction to keep, cause a lot of people ask me, well, you know, things like as a business owner, what's your exit strategy? That's not the kind of language and the kind of thinking that I have around this. to me, it's not really up to me. I'm with this. I'm inspired this and, and feel deeply, grateful to have been given this opportunity to my community in this way. And I feel, you know, if we can create beautiful spaces where clients can arrive and feel at ease immediately, we're not battling with the environment is quite enough to deal with the psychological, physical healing processes without having also to Granger Forson: Yeah. ANGUS LANDMAN: bear, horrible lighting, nasty environments, straight lines. And what you'll see when you come around the rooms is you'll see lots of ⁓ lovely old lots of things that have got a bit of chipping chips in them, because none of us ⁓ are whole. know, ⁓ we don't comfortable really in a medical setting because we're not straight lines. You know, we are. Granger Forson: Mmm. ANGUS LANDMAN: all a bit, you know, I speak for myself shall I, bit you know craggy around the edges. ⁓ Granger Forson: All of us, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes, yes. was interesting. were my partner and I, we were talking about why we like our garden because ⁓ are no straight lines. There's lots of plants everywhere, but things move in random ways depending on what the weather's doing as well. I totally agree. We all very ⁓ like those perfect structures, etc. So your business model, you've talked therapists, you've talked about ANGUS LANDMAN: Exactly. Granger Forson: clients, is your business model? Do you charge out for ⁓ room to the therapist or ⁓ do you generate the revenue? ANGUS LANDMAN: Yes. mean, essentially, yes. mean, I, you know, I'll rent buildings, um, and then, uh, kind of create rooms which are either there or, we, we build them. and then we have a, a booking system. Therapists have access to the booking system and they rent by the hour. Uh, they can rent in different, really very flexible. arrangement where they can take just one off ad hoc hours or they can rent slots of hours which are sort of blocks put together same time every week. We've got you know color coding ⁓ the room so people don't get confused by which room they booked. It's a simple model but it works. ⁓ Granger Forson: Brilliant. talk then ⁓ you've been your activity by ⁓ growing the of ⁓ buildings and that you rent, how do you fill one of those? do you decide where to create one? And how do you go about filling that occupancy level? ANGUS LANDMAN: Basically, I just sort of... It's not a very logical process. It's much more intuitive. You know, I... what I recognize is if I set my sights on one location, it could be years before that location comes up. In fact, for example, Oxford, I remember someone mentioning to me in the early days, oh, I didn't know you open in Oxford. And I spent 10 years looking in Oxford until I found somewhere. But I wasn't going to only look in Oxford. I was looking in Oxford at the same time as looking in lots of other places. And at some point, something came up somewhere. You know, and something came up in Exeter and, in and in, you Sheffield and so on. And, and I'm ready when they come up sort of thing, as opposed to only focused on one area. So it's sort of randomly allowing the process to unfold. and really simply, would I be willing or keen to work in this place? You know, does this feel like a a place that's conducive to the work. You know, there's a bit more thought goes into it in somewhere like, you know, with transport, obviously people have got to be able to get to the center. For the most part, they are close to ⁓ cafes you know, ⁓ amenities so clients can ⁓ sit in ⁓ coffee shop waiting for that session. Granger Forson: Yeah. ANGUS LANDMAN: or coming back from their session, know, they've got a transitional space, you it makes a conducive experience really. Granger Forson: Brilliant. Yeah, love that. And ⁓ sort of organic growth type idea, but with that aim of grow and ⁓ more to allow people to have that space ⁓ achieve what they ⁓ what? ⁓ ANGUS LANDMAN: Yeah. And, and, and I'm sorry, I've been that one of the things I, you know, I always say is that I feel like, you know, build it and they will come, you know, in a way they don't really know what we've got. ⁓ so the idea of kind of going out and doing market research is quite tricky. aren't hanging around on street corners waiting to be housed. It time to build a practice. Granger Forson: Right. Yeah. No. ANGUS LANDMAN: and it takes time to fill a centre. And in a way we to slow down. This is not about rushing and knocking stuff out. It's about quality and depth. And that's of the business. Granger Forson: Yeah. But then... That's really good. I love that. I really do. And had some significant growth. What are you aiming for in the next 12 months and why? ANGUS LANDMAN: I mean, that's bit like asking me my exit strategy. I, in a way I don't really, I don't really know. ⁓ I mean, feel like ⁓ I'm sensitive the you know, and I feel a lot of the metaphor of sailing is really quite thinking about it because ⁓ You know, you're not in control of the wind. work is to constantly trim the sail, to constantly adjust, to awake and to the practice, and to ⁓ use the most And the direction for me of travel ⁓ is clear. because my vision around this is clear and that is about making this work more accessible. How that happens in some ways is not up to me. because that's the wind. How I, sail the boat, how we sail the, and, trim those sails is our practice. And we can't really say much more than that, but, but, but it keeps us, it keeps us aligned, which key. And it keeps us efficient because you cannot sail a boat inefficiently. Granger Forson: Mmm, I love that. ANGUS LANDMAN: The wind is, is, ⁓ it demands everything of you. Granger Forson: Yeah, think that is a beautiful analogy. Thank you so much. I've not heard that one before. I think that's a fantastic analogy of any business really and the realities of growing it. So let's move on to act two, ⁓ journey. Over last many years of building your business, ⁓ you've highs and lows. What could share with us those highs and lows and what you learned about yourself? ANGUS LANDMAN: Yes, I mean, I think, I mean, what I would say overall is, and, you know, many people probably won't understand this notion of effortless. but I come back to the analogy often again, also using the analogy of surfboards and surfing, is that the effort the wave does the effort. The wave does the work, the wind does the work. the, the practice is to attuned to that. So the overall experience has been one of effortlessness. But within that, of course, there have been disappointments, there have been properties that I've tried to acquire and haven't, there have been people that I've wanted to stay that there have been disappointments along the way. times where I've had to disappoint people, I've had to let people go, I've had to very about the direction of travel and that's always easy. But for the part... I feel like attracted the people who are aligned with the work so they understand essentially what we're doing. Because we're all sort of an armada really, together. know, so all of my individual colleagues, my practice managers, we're ⁓ setting sail together. And I keep encouraging to connect to that deeper. unfolding that deeper direction and that the more that they do that, the more aligned they feel not only with the organization, but the organization within them. You know, that their productivity and their enjoyment of the work becomes a deeply fulfilling process, which is much more than just going out and work. Granger Forson: And sticking with that analogy of ⁓ boat, are times when we need to change track, we need to go a different direction. ⁓ there any ⁓ of significant changes in the trajectory of your business and what was the result? ANGUS LANDMAN: ⁓ not really. I mean, we've had a few technical, but it's, it's essentially, you know, a simple, a simple business. one of the central obviously is the booking system, which is a really crucial part of the, of the, of the story. and booking system issues are, tricky and came point where we needed to upgrade and ⁓ not very technically connected person but it was explained to me that the hose pipe down which the water was running was no longer big enough for the water to get down and therefore we needed to scrap the old system which was really working which was really great but it was getting slower and slower. So that is a major technological shift and it was really difficult to do. we're actually intending to launch our own new booking system this summer. Having had an interim system that just about was fit for purpose, but not great. So that is a serious issue because uses booking system and if you don't have a booking system, really you don't have a business. Granger Forson: Yes, like that. at Stronger Business together with our clients, one of our four principles is growing people so they can grow your business because we can't do it ourselves. So what have you learned about growing people within your organization that maybe you'd wish you'd known about at the beginning? ⁓ ANGUS LANDMAN: Well, I mean, you know, coming from a psych, as a psychotherapist, I'm coming from a psychotherapeutic perspective. So to me, growing people is, you know, kind of facilitating people, I would call it, creating space for them to walk into. It is my job, my life, it's my work. And there's nothing that gives me greater pleasure than watching someone excel. watching someone thrive, watching someone who has come really knowing what the practice room is all about ⁓ suddenly find themselves in a place where they are flourishing and it's just a joy and to watch ⁓ communities ⁓ ⁓ in the rooms begin to thrive themselves ⁓ how that all comes together so that the joy of being a centre part of that community and facilitating it and it's sort of love emanates out and wouldn't want to work in that environment? Exactly. And I mean, it's like I'd almost do it for free. Unfortunately, I have to eat, but basically this is my life. Granger Forson: Yeah, yes please, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Hahaha. Yeah, that's beautiful. What's one habit that you've put in place within the business that ⁓ your teams become stronger together? ANGUS LANDMAN: Well, one of the things we've had right from the beginning is buddies. So we have our practice managers. think everyone actually in the business has a buddy and you know, they, they support each other individually as as they journey on. And, you know, the feedback over years has been great. we've we fund a couple of hours a month for them to have chats together, to connect, to talk about what the issues are, to work together. We also meet in different ways. We try and create environments where we recognize that this ⁓ can be quite isolating the practice managers. You can say, for example, we might have a center in Leeds and one Norwich. I mean, they're, you know, ⁓ one in, quite disparate. do you bring them together? How do you bring those, and give them a sense that they're part of a bigger process. And so we have a summer, a summer gathering where we bring all of our people together and ⁓ just enjoy. each other's company and have a laugh and commune. And it's all done under the, within the set within the framework of the vision, within the framework of every one of our meetings begins taking a moment, take a moment to drop down and connect, not a meditation, but a meditative moment, you might call it. that's one of the things I'm really keen promote is taking a moment because it just slows time and just enables us to reconnect to a deeper, deeper choosing. Am I really choosing this or am I being by it? To what degree am I agent and in my agency? to what degree am I just doing things because I should? Granger Forson: Wow, love that. Take a moment. I've written that down. I think that's a beautiful thing and something I'm going to take away and think about within the structure of my partner and I when we work together. So, you know, there are things that sort of suck energies out of business. What's maybe one thing that you've removed from your business to give you energy back? ANGUS LANDMAN: I actually really think of anything that... you know, that sucks energy. I mean, I know this is going to sound sort of quite sort of therapeutically sort of but I mean, to me, truth always energy back into the space. So whatever that means, whatever that looks like, if we speak about what's coming for us, what's real, that brings energy back into the room. what takes energy out is trying to be something that is not true, trying to hide something, trying to be someone I'm not, effectively making a lot of effort. And burnout arises from that place. I'm always challenging around why you, what is burnout about? I mean, particularly in the helping professions. And what it's really about is that I'm trying to save the world. And that's not my job. And what it's like a resistor in the, in a light bulb, you know, the resistor gets really hot and in the end it burns out. And that's why, because you're resisting the flow. You're trying to fight the wind, and the beauty of the work. is the wind does the work. It's not up to me. Granger Forson: Wow brilliant, great analogies and thoughts there that you bring to us. So thank you so much. So let's move on to Act Three now, ⁓ hurdle round. ⁓ what's the hurdle that you've brought with you today for us to talk through? ANGUS LANDMAN: Yeah, so I mean, as a small organization, know, things work quite personally and quite everyone's communicating easily because there are only a handful of you. As the organization grows, it becomes more complex. And we had a general manager who, shall we say, was the helmsman in our continuing with our analogy. But she's not just the helmsman. was also trimming sales. She was also cooking. She was also, you know, multitasking a big way, which you can get away with in a small organization. But okay. And so exactly, exactly. You totally do. I mean, you know, the, ⁓ the you know, I was cleaning the rooms, doing the loos, showing people over, you know, ⁓ Granger Forson: And to some degree you need to because you don't have all the people to do all those parts. ANGUS LANDMAN: changing light, et cetera. So yes, for sure. But as that emerges, you know, the come tipping points. And this particular tipping point was that Sarah, that was her name, went off on maternity leave at exactly the point where we, we were really sort of, there was a tension in terms of what she was holding. So it was perfect timing in one way. because as she left, all the different strands that she was pulling and holding had to be taken up by others. So her job effectively got scattered. And that's really well. But what is missing that is her wisdom as the keeper ⁓ of the knowledge. And also the person who was to sit in and line So she knew what was going on and she was able to facilitate people in that process. Now, if that person is removed, you've got a lot of quite senior people, but no one above them that's actually holding the thing together. And that's... been a process. Luckily she's coming back. So in fact all shall be well. And again back to my sailing analogy, it's like we've learned to adapt the sails to Granger Forson: Yes, but there's, but you've got more growth coming, you've got, a bigger boat to start steering, you'll need more people, more hands ⁓ getting involved. So the business is growing. So ⁓ it'll happen won't These problems happen again, if we don't start thinking about that. And that's your hurdle, isn't it? How do you manage that change when, you know, a key member of the team isn't around for a while? ANGUS LANDMAN: Yes. Yes. It is. Granger Forson: Okay, yeah, brilliant. That's a fantastic question. The real struggle of growth. ANGUS LANDMAN: Yes. And also, know, ⁓ and also, you know, it's inevitable that that's what growth looks like. know, mean, shells break. ⁓ we emerge. mean, you know, there's no growth without, without, expansion. ⁓ At what point do you an office? what point do you make that leap? What take the expenditure? Well, you don't have the income to invest. Granger Forson: Yes, Yes, ⁓ Yeah. ANGUS LANDMAN: but you have to invest in order to generate ink, you know, et cetera, that old chestnut. Yeah. Granger Forson: Yes, yes, absolutely, absolutely. So let's think about this change that took place. The business was growing, somebody on maternity leave, who's a key helm, and we lost knowledge and that structure within people, but also that guiding hand ⁓ through it all. So what would have been ideal, you think? ⁓ If we could back and look at that, what would have been the ideal situation that would allow that to happen without the sort of loss of difficulties that came with ANGUS LANDMAN: ⁓ I don't think it could have happened better. mean, we were lucky because we got ourselves a really great office manager, ⁓ who just happened to rock up at that moment and stepped into that position, which was a really critical one. I mean, I feel incredibly blessed is the truth that the right people turn up somehow. Granger Forson: Okay. Yeah. ANGUS LANDMAN: despite my sort of slightly chaotic approach personally, they seem to just show up and then they handle it. And it's been, you I'm not saying that it's without, trimmings in the sail, and undoubtedly there are moments when, have to act quickly, but I really... struggle to think how we could have done it differently and better. Granger Forson: So what you talked about there is actually the key to managing that change is people within the team that can manage situations are different. ⁓ they've got that strength of character, they've got the strength of organization to step up and to solve the individual problems that will then come because of that situation. So a lot of us ⁓ business owners, we probably don't create an organization like you have that actually has within it. a whole set of people that can solve problems. Because the reality is when she went, there were a lot of things that needed to get done. Okay, we may have had those out as tasks, but the detail, the nuances was locked in her head where these new people can go, actually, I know how to fix things. I have that strength. I have that support within the business and the framework of what we do. And they just got on with it. So what you've actually shown is it's more. ANGUS LANDMAN: Yes. Granger Forson: Change in an organization is more around how you've built the people to cope resolving issues and stepping up to the plate as going on. ⁓ you understand the root cause of the problem if it was going to take place and you'd already got that organization ready ⁓ to that happen. There will always be problems. There's problems every single day in every business. That's the reality. There's no one perfect system, as you say. ⁓ ANGUS LANDMAN: Yes. Yes. Yes. Granger Forson: We're always fighting the wind slightly different. The waves are fighting us in different directions. There are always going to be things to do that. But if your business is full of amazing people that can solve problems, can step up to the plate, can enjoy the challenge of making things better, then you'll be able to tackle that. And that's exactly what you've got. ANGUS LANDMAN: Yes. And I think that the ethos is the core key to that, which is a spacious one, not a pressurized one, not a one that forcing a result, but one that trusts its people, us to attend and to tend the sales. Granger Forson: Mm. Yeah. ANGUS LANDMAN: you know and give thanks be deeply grateful constantly Granger Forson: Yes. And you've built that organization based on your principles. The people around you accept those and are delighted in those and they help enrich and take those principles forwards. But the next step then within your organization as you get bigger is how do you build not just one person but a leadership team that embodies all of those and makes that happen all the time without you needing there to be reinforcing and reminding people that that's there. And that's the next step in the organization change you're going to, which is how do you develop and coach and find the right leaders to take the business forward? And my guess is they're actually sitting within your organization because often they're the best people to find because A, they've already got the ethos, they've already got the strengths and understanding of our organization. What we need to do is challenge them to become the next leaders in the business. ANGUS LANDMAN: Yes. Granger Forson: and help grow and develop them to fit in those roles because actually they will be better at it than if you bring external managers in Verti Commons organization because they don't understand you in the same way as ⁓ business. So yeah. ANGUS LANDMAN: Exactly, exactly. mean it's a culture and what you also know is that if we've got an organization which we have that is slightly counter-cultural, the externally will be constantly trying to undermine it, constantly trying to draw it into its ⁓ constantly trying to force it to develop its... Granger Forson: Yeah. ANGUS LANDMAN: known strategies. It's scary. It's scary to have an organization that doesn't quite, we can't quite understand, doesn't fit into the normal frameworks. what I really feel is that it's up to us to model something different. You know, we want a different kind of leadership. We're not looking for the traditional power down leadership. We're looking to, facilitate leadership at every level. ⁓ Granger Forson: Yes, that's brilliant. that's a real cultural change that you've created that's different to lot of organizations. And that's really focusing on the people growing, developing people, the skills they fit in the organization. Those that don't, ⁓ said you had to let some people go, but finding those people. So the next challenge to yourself would be sitting down with the when she comes back and saying, OK, together. How do we build the next level of leaders within the business take the business forwards? So we don't do it. We're there as then the levels of mentors and guides to those new leadership team to take the business forwards. They take it forwards. We just guide and mentor them. So yeah, really exciting future. ANGUS LANDMAN: Yes. Yes. And we always get, you know, the vision and the journey is one of people to write their own intentional set their own field, and then, you know, have an accountability practice that enables them to ⁓ reflect on has that ⁓ are issues that have gone in the way of that? ⁓ And it's a really interesting line between, we're not talking a woke system where we're taking care of everyone and ridiculous in, frankly, quite ridiculous ways. We are enabling ⁓ them empower themselves. This is not about victim support. It's about empowerment. Granger Forson: Yeah. Nope. Nope. Nope. Yeah, agreed. Yeah, absolutely. Yes, and it is that growth through challenge helping people step up to achieve more, do more. ⁓ that's how we grow and develop. That's what human beings are about. And so many businesses forget that, squash that, lose that. ⁓ embodied that and you've got that in your organization. And that's why ⁓ can see you got through that difficult time, but also ⁓ ANGUS LANDMAN: Yes. Yes. Yes. Granger Forson: I can see how you can then use that as the next stage for your growth and development. So fantastic. Thank you so much for that sharing the conversation. So let's go into our wrap up and close now. one thing maybe you heard yourself say today that maybe surprised you? ANGUS LANDMAN: don't think anything to be honest, Granger. I mean, I think about this stuff a lot. So it's not like it's new to me. It's so core. It's so central to everything I stand for that it me. I think sounds silly about that, it's so ⁓ important that I'm not to it. Granger Forson: No, it's not silly. it is really what the essence of leadership is really about. I think you've found that and you're using that and that's it is. So thank you. Finally, Angus, how can people get hold of you and follow you on your journey? ANGUS LANDMAN: Well, I I, you they need to follow the practice rooms. I mean, ⁓ I am a poet. In fact, ⁓ I to read you and will read you if I may, this poem, ⁓ is our statement as well. And ⁓ it's this, you might be able to see on the screen. ⁓ But sometimes sort of business leadership and the poet come together and ⁓ Granger Forson: Please do. ANGUS LANDMAN: I really profoundly love that. So this is how the poem goes and it's called For the sake of peace and it's a vision statement by my poet is Ayaz Angus Landman because that's actually a Sufi name. It goes like so just a room to rent, we are a community. not just any old community, but one convened by values. Not values as lip service to a pseudo promise, but values grounded in an arduous practice, refusing to be dimmed or diminished by the daily assault of our personal shame. Rather, the realisation of a minute, an hour, a life committed to love for the sake of peace. Granger Forson: Fantastic. Thank you, was absolutely beautiful. a fantastic share at the end there. that awesome. So ⁓ thank you so for being open and honest. And I know our listeners will get so much out of this conversation today. It's been fantastic. Thank you. ANGUS LANDMAN: Thank you. Thank you.