Latest / Skin Anarchy / Navigating the Nuances of Fragrance Composition with Industry Expert Darryl Do of Delbia Do

Transcript

Navigating the Nuances of Fragrance Composition with Industry Expert Darryl Do of Delbia Do · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hi guys, welcome back to Squincher Energy.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is your host, Ecta, and today is a Fragrance Friday special.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: I'm super excited because I'm gonna be learning a lot, I feel like, in this episode, because we have a wonderful guest who knows everything about perfumery and can really tell us about things that I think for me I have a lot of questions, you know, when it comes to fragrances, uh flavoring, anything that has to do with that side of this industry.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: I'm always lost.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: So I know a lot of you chime in, ask us questions, and hopefully we can get some answers here.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to Daryl Dew, who is a perfumer at Delbia Dew, which is a manufacturing company for fragrances and flavors.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_01: They've been around since 1968.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: So they're the real deal.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm really excited to host you, Daryl.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for coming on the show.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me on.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's it's really a pleasure and an honor to be able to host people that I can really ask questions and kind of you know pick your brain a little bit, right?
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: About something I don't know much about.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I would love to do that down the road, but I'd love to get started if you could tell us a little bit about yourself and what got you into, you know, this area of beauty and just the fragrance industry at large.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: So, as you mentioned, we are here since 1968, but that's what was founded by my father.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: So he was a uh perfumer and a flavorist at different companies in the industry, and then he started his own company in '68.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: And my mother uh joined him in this endeavor, and her name is Delbia, so that's where the name of the company comes from.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: Delbia is mom's name, and she's still working.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I started out here, probably doing child labor, if uh, but he says it's all training.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: My dad would always say that.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_00: So you're learning something, so it's not really labor.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Also, I guess I guess you know it's really not a fair exchange, but mom did feed me.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I've worked here and we worked for a lot of my father's friends who are also in the industry, and other companies in the industry were our clients.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: So we manufacture fragrances, flavors, as well as we sell essential oils and aroma chemicals.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: So we provide a service to different parts of the industry, other manufacturers, other perfume houses, as well as a lot of, in this case, beauty brands.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: So we manufacture fragrances, we blend the fragrance into an alcohol solution, and we can also fill them into the bottles.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: So you know everything basically from like you know, A to Z about this whole process.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: That's really cool.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of, yeah.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why they call part of this turnkey manufacturing, because a lot of people want to start out, they don't really know where to start or what to do, and they have no idea of how technical the packaging components are.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, bottle seems very simple, but there are a lot of issues like how big is the bottle, what's the neck finish, what do you want the hump, the displacement to be, caps, uh, what are the minimum quantities, and each of these have their own minimum quantity.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: So it's kind of like buying hot dogs.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: You can't buy three hot dogs and three buns.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: You kind of have to buy like eight buns and 12 hot dogs or something like that.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: So it's unless you get 24, it's not gonna work out right.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean, it's interesting to me because like, you know, the fragrance world is so vast, you know, and I and I know that like a lot of us, we hear about fragrances, for example, you know, this is a skincare podcast, you know, mostly we have a lot of skincare brands come on.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I know a big argument in the skincare of the beauty industry is about, you know, what are fragrances really doing when they're involved with like actual products we're putting on our face, you know, like that kind of thing.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_01: And I know there's a huge conversation around that from multiple angles.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I I guess, like, you know, I would love to start there if we could talk a little bit about, you know, when you're working with fragrances, what are some of the things that you have to keep in mind when it comes to how they're being delivered?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like a perfume versus something that goes into like a beauty product, you know, if you could give us a little overview.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_00: The fragrance industry is highly regulated, and people don't even realize the behind-the-scenes regulations from uh inky, which are the ingredients that are used in the products that have to be uh registered, as well as an organization called IFRA.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that one is primarily focused on the fragrance raw materials, where ink is for cosmetics, any personal care products.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that's how your ingredients need to be shown on the packaging.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_00: So people that are looking to read the labels and figure out what's in it, they should be listed in descending order on the side of the packaging.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: And this way you can figure out for the most part if you may be allergic to something.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: So people that have nut allergies are pretty concerned with this because a lot of times in skin products you'll have almond oil or sweet almond oil, you'll have uh grapeseed oil, mineral oil.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, if you want to stay away from synthetics like mineral oil, then you'll go to a more natural option like argan, which is one of my favorite oils to use.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_00: And then you have, you know, all the other nut oils that are used in the manufacture of skincare.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, I mean that makes sense too.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in terms of like, yeah, there's a there's a lot of oils.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I I think, you know, also like my from my understanding, and I guess where for me the confusion comes in is like it doesn't really depend on like concentration as well.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I know we can't really speak in generalized terms about like what makes people react to things, right?
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_01: But like in general, when you when I think about fragrance and any cosmetic product, I like a little red flag goes off for me because I also have very sensitive skin, right?
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: But what I've noticed personally is that if something's not highly scented, you know, if it's not like over the top, I'm fine usually.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: But like that's why I'm I'm curious, like, does that really come into play like when you're crafting a product that does the you know the brand does want a fragrance in there?
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: How do you really dose that?
• 6:34
  SPEAKER_01: You know, in terms of the concentration of the fragrance, and like, you know, do these kind of things come up in conversation about like allergic reactions and and what we should and shouldn't do from the manufacturing side?
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what is that whole process like for you?
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, we just create a fragrance.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're not really too concerned about people that may or may not have allergies or skin sensitivity to certain ingredients, because A, we don't know what ingredients those people are allergic to.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then dosage is as is also an issue, but we're not gonna worry about those people that are allergic because I don't know how big a segment of the market that is.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_00: First part is if you know you're allergic to something or to fragrances, then just don't buy it.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: So if you know allergies, you're going to read very carefully to see if there are any nuts in the product, and then you don't buy it.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then there are other options.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_00: So if you are allergic to some ingredients and you don't know what they are, if you put them on your skin, the other option is to fragrance your clothes, say your coat or your sweater, and not put it directly on your skin.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: No, that makes a lot of sense.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I like I like that you said that, you know, in in a very honest way, because I I agree with you.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I think a lot of times, a lot of things in this industry I've noticed, you know, there's a lot of screaming and yelling about things that are very easily avoidable.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that that's a that's a conversation, you know, for another day.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: But I I agree with you with that.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's something if you are somebody out there listening in and you are allergic to like you know you're allergic, you know, like just be mindful of that.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that's something that a lot of times consumers want to push onto brands, you know, or like manufacturers, like, well, you should be doing that for me.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like you can't do that.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's not logical, you know, because everybody's different and you can't cater to just one niche population.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: You have to think about, you know, what who's the real audience here?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: So that's very interesting.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_01: I want to ask you though, Daryl, you know, a lot of my questions are really around fragrances and like the trends, because I won't lie, you know, with the rise of TikTok and you know, perfume TikTok and all this stuff, all the social media and and whatnot, I have a really hard time figuring out, you know, like what are the really cool up-and-coming like fragrances or things that maybe I would even want to adapt.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess my question is like, what are some things you see as like rising trends or rising um, you know, in terms of popularity, in terms of the fragrance niche?
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: So it depends on which uh topics you're looking at.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: So are you looking at ingredients?
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: To address that in terms of the ingredients, a lot of people are looking for transparency in the ingredients of cosmetics and fragrances.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: So you're not actually gonna get the formula for the fragrance.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: So on the packaging, what you see as the notes of uh Tahitian vanilla and Madagascar chocolate, these things are not actually in.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: They may be, but these are just accords, and sometimes they're called fantasy accords.
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it smells like something that the perfumer created.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: So when you have an ingredient listed like papyrus, you know, you're not actually getting papyrus from somewhere in Egypt to create a fragrance from.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: So it's the perfumer's uh vision of this mixture, and he's calling it papyrus, and he's putting it into a fragrance.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh people have to remember these are fragrance accords.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: So an accord is normally a like a chord of music is more than one note, one ingredient.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: So it could be, you know, you have an E note or a key on a piano, or you can play an E chord or on a guitar.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: So these are the notes that make up that accord.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know that.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: That's so fascinating.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: That like when you what you said about like the papyrus analogy, like um, I didn't know that like perfumers do that, where they like if they create something and then they're then they're naming it.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like does I mean, how much does that really play into the overall scent then?
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, these kind of things.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: Like, like, you know, if someone's saying, like, you know, this smells like, you know, a coconut vac like, you know, when you're on vacation at like like coconut and like the tropical vibe, like, I mean, how much of that is true then?
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Because now I'm thinking about like when people describe fragrances, right?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, oh, I smell a little bit of peach and I smell some lemon and I smell it's like, are you really smelling that stuff, or is that just you know, like I'm just now I'm curious.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, that's good.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad I've piqued your interest there.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: So in my accords, I will use lemon or orange or bergamot into my citrus accord.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm not gonna tell you exactly what's in it because my formula is a trade secret.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: And that's one of the safeguards that the fragrance industry has.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: It's a trade secret listed under Code of Federal Regulations so it protects us and our intellectual property from just being duplicated because you've seen all the what they call knockoffs or the you know copies, replicants of of the designer fragrance.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, the same thing as this fragrance fashion brand, but for half the price.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: So and that's the way they do it.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: So instead of using, say, you know, a Turkish rose, then they'll use a synthetic road rose accord.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you still cover the rose, but it's just not the same.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of like you know, all the different liquors or scotches, you know, you got, you know, something fast and furious, a scotch, and then you have these like, you know, four-year-old, eight-year-old, twelve-year-old.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_00: So then you know for the connoisseur and the people that want the difference in quality or can appreciate that, then they will go to something a little more special.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, for example, some of my friends are into wine and I can appreciate it, but I can't see spending, you know, I don't know,$120 a bottle of wine versus say, I don't know,$40.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's that difference is lost on me.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: So and it's not a matter of it's expensive, because there are expensive things out there that, you know, I may like and there are expensive things that I may not like.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, some people just don't like caviar.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Just because it's fancy and expensive doesn't mean everyone's gonna like it.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: No, that's so true.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_01: That's so true.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I actually have think um, you know, growing up for me personally, like um, I there were a lot of fragrances that I don't think, you know, people even really knew about.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I I my background is Indian, you know, so my family, my mom always had these cool oils, you know what I mean, that she always had when she's coming back from a trip from India or something, and I'd love the scent of it.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: But it was like, you know, my friends would ask me, What are you wearing?
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, well, I I'm wearing an oil that my mom got, you know, from God knows where, you know, on her travels.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_01: But it's like uh it's the value that I hold on that, you know, versus like what you're describing, you know, it's completely I completely agree.
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: So so that's that's part of it in terms of the formulation and the secrecy around it and the building of the fragrance with you know natural ingredients, synthetic ingredients, and the descriptors of the accords or the notes in the fragrance.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then you also have the transparency of wanting to use more naturals.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: So when possible, people can do this, whether or not their brand can afford it.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, I'll always get uh a question like, can you create a fragrance like uh I don't know, Armani, but make it organic?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: I said, no, impossible, because 90% of those ingredients, even if they were natural, are not available in an organic form.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's impossible to do.
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: But wherever they can, people want to call out natural ingredients.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: So the big trend I've had for the last 10 years is using sugarcane alcohol.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: So this is probably the biggest issue here, and uh uh people probably don't know that the regular alcohol, 40B, most of it's made from corn.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and only some of them are made with organic sugarcane.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I import that product from South America, and we use it for some of our brands, but you know, those are more either conscious or upscale brands that can afford it because the other brands, it's just not in our budget.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like buying chicken from the grocery store or an organic chicken.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, one's gonna cost seven dollars, the other one costs twelve dollars.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_01: So how does how does it like, I mean, I sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: I I just curious, like, how big of a difference does that make then?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, if someone says, you know, they're really kind of set on that, like, no, I really want it from this location, and you know, like this is what I uh they're not opting for any other thing, like, does it really make a big difference, like what your where your alcohol was sourced from?
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, is it that big of a difference in terms of the quality of the product?
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: Or I mean, how does that work?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it may not be a quality issue, but yeah, a certain percentage of the corn alcohol is genetically modified.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: There's also non-GMO corn.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: So for people that this makes a difference, then yeah, I mean, it's if they find value there, it's like I have friends that eat halal, eat kosher, yeah, and some don't.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: So it's still a chicken, it's the way that it was processed.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: And is there value there?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: For them, there is.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's a huge thing because it's religion for them.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_00: And then I have other friends are, you know, my more uh nature-loving friends.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, they're like, oh no, it has to be organic and it has to be from this farm or cage-free eggs, and this there are all these different levels of natural and organic.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: And for people that find value there and they want to leave that lifestyle, yeah, it's hugely important.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: And especially when my friends started having kids, it's like, I want to put the most natural things into my child, uh, looking out for them.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I listen to this with a grain of salt.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I I agree, but there are other natural things out there that aren't good for you.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm I have allergies.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, spring and fall, I have both different types of pollen that affect me.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, you just have to deal.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's mother nature.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: So Right, right.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: I I agree.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: No, I agree.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's an interesting, it's an interesting world for for consumers, I think, in the in the fragrance industry, especially right now, because you know, there's a lot of like, you know, self-proclaimed connoisseurs of fragrances, and and they're as self-proclaimed experts, I should rather say, you know, and when they're describing things, I'm always like, you know, as a consumer, I'm intrigued.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like if I see an influencer or somebody, not even an influencer, somebody who I think knows what they're talking about, describe a fragrance, right?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: And then you go and you buy that fragrance and you you experience it for yourself, and you might notice like that's this is not the quality I was expecting, right?
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: So that's where I think I get lost in terms of like when you're crafting, for example, a vanilla fragrance.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: There's different types, as you know, of vanilla fragrances, and there's different qualities, in my opinion.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_01: So if you were to like try to like explain to me, like how does that work in terms of like getting a vanilla fragrance that doesn't smell like the vanilla extract you buy at the store versus like actually real vanilla, you know, like how does that whole process work?
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because, you know, not every vanilla fragrance is made the same, you know, some smell like just I don't even know, like I it doesn't even smell like something that a perfumer has put thought into in some times, you know, and others are just magnificent.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: So where is that difference, you know, that creates that quality?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know, where does that really happen in the process?
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: So as I mentioned before, there again are the range of ingredients.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: You can have uh there's an ingredient called vanilin, which is used in flavors.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, there's vanilla extract, vanilla absolue CO2 extraction.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, they're natural, they're synthetic, and there are different qualities of the vanilla.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: Some vanillins are natural, some are not.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of the option when you're creating a vanilla fragrance, but then we build around it.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: We just don't use one ingredient and there's just not vanilla uh extract in your product.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: It could be a combination of items.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: So you mentioned before, like when you're saying cooking something, you may have uh vanilla extract or maple syrup, and the FDA has done some changes.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_00: So before I thought everything that came out of that uh container at the diner was v was a maple syrup.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: So now the law says it should say maple syrup if it's natural or maple flavored syrup, or they just call it some sort of breakfast syrup because the breakfast syrup is probably just all synthetics.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: And um the maple syrup is you know, from the tree.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, it's you have to read the labels.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: So now I do that all the time when I shop for things like that.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: I don't use maple syrup all the time, but when I do, it's uh I want it to be from, you know, Maine, Vermont, or upstate New York, not some artificial flavor.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: So that's the other thing, let's say beverages.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: So you're made with uh the natural, or and there's another uh regulation stating that it has to have W-O-N-F with other natural flavors.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_00: So making a uh say apricot uh drink for kids, and it's not apricot juice, and it's made with flavors, then you have to, you know, it'll say that.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: So you have to read that.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's probably gonna be one of the last ingredients listed.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's gonna say W O N F with other natural flavors.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: No, no, that's interesting because you know, I I always like, you know, I have a hard time differentiating, and that's really why I asked, because you know, I feel like um the there's like this weird like way of describing things in the way that layman people do.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: know if you don't come from the fragrance world, if you don't come from the, you know, flavors or fragrances, if you don't come from that background, it's really hard to figure out like, well, what is your definition of what vanilla smells like?
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's always the question I have is like a person's definition can vary based on what your experiences have been in your life.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: So like I don't know if when a perfumer is telling you this is a vanilla perfume, what do you like, is it vanilla because you put vanilla in there, but or is it because you think it smells like vanilla?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like that doesn't, that's where I don't, it doesn't register.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: And like a lot of times I've tried these fragrances that are claiming to be like, you know, this kind of a fragrance and they end up smelling completely different, you know?
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's where I asked you that question was from that that standpoint as a consumer that, you know, I think there's a lot of gray space, you know, when it when I think about perfumery and when I think about fragrances, there's a lot of gray space in terms of figuring out how did this perfumer come to this as the final product, you know?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Where I thought as a consumer I was buying this, but instead I purchased something that has like a very strong other scent to it, you know, that isn't really reflective of what I thought I was purchasing.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that's really why I asked because there's a lot out there like that.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: So right.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it's when you you call your fragrance by a name of an ingredient that people are familiar with pineapple, vanilla, chocolate, lavender, rose, it's probably gonna be in the product.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: But when you call your perfume love um or was it like CK1 or contradiction, you have no idea what that's supposed to be.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: You have to figure out if you like it or not.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_00: And if it does have notes of vanilla or natural vanilla that's great but that's not what they're calling it.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: So if you like the finished construction of the fragrance, that's to me that's all you should really worry about.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: When when somebody you know went to this great restaurant last night and I don't know what they put in that sauce but it was great.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: Well that's it.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: And they're not going to tell you all their ingredients because then that's their trade secret.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_00: So if they use a oak saffron then then great but that's their secret.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_00: So do you like my dinner?
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yes or no?
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: Give it a five star back tell your friends.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: But you know the other thing I have to I warn my clients because I I work for retail stores as well as other beauty brands there are a lot of people out there that are making fragrances.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_00: So they'll say things like made in small batches well there really is no benefit to making it in a small batch and actually there is more accuracy in the batch if it's made in a larger batch.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you know it really brings nothing to the table small batch versus you know what what and what is a small batch is that you know four ounces or is it you know four gallons is it four thousand kilos what is a small batch but again there it's kind of one of these marketing things where you say that and people oh my god small batch that's great not really and you know also is it made in a compliant environment so I had a friend who was making cookies and she was selling them to all these uh restaurants in midtown and then somehow the health inspector said oh who's your supplier for those cookies and they said oh this girl Emily and Emily was making it out of her family's kitchen on the upper east side so that wasn't a legit business model.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: She could have rented a ghost kitchen and then made them there but you can't make it in your house and then start selling a product because you know while she was honest in in what she was doing you know kept the kitchen clean there are other people who are not and so you don't know you know unless it's I mean I mean that's the whole issue about registering your company is it you know we are you know when I get a new supplier they'll say oh uh are you a corporation how long have you been doing this is your building you know registered to uh as a commercial facility yes we are uh are we allowed to have flammable liquids here yes we are uh we have you know permits from the fire department alcohol tobacco firearms so that there's a lot of compliance behind the scenes that people have no clue people say oh yeah in my in my studio in uh Brooklyn somewhere and it's like well yeah that's not legit yeah you know something that somebody may have an allergic reaction to because maybe you're not sure about the ingredients you're buying and maybe there's a nut oil in one of those ingredients that you didn't realize and then somebody could get hurt.
• 26:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah exactly no I mean I think that's a really strong point because you know um we don't really hear about it a lot either you know I as some as fragrances like for me I think skincare is easier for me because I know that you know skincare uh manufacturing works a certain way with with fragrances it's really like I think of like heavy chemistry lab you know what I mean when I think of a fragrance lab like it's really um something that requires a lot of regulation around you know like you mentioned you know flammables and and just certain protocols you should be following and I guess that leads me to ask you because you guys are an FDA registered facility at Del Bose like with the FDA like what do they really require you know as part of their protocol if you if you don't mind sharing some things all that is available on the FDA website there are different safety protocols and there are I guess quality control protocols there's a a recall God forbid somebody has an allergic reaction are we able to do a recall of the product or did we sell it and how was it shipped over there?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um so there needs to be traceability for all the products we make and then of course the ingredients did we test them for safety you know there there are people out there selling outdated raw materials and chemicals like you third parties and you know they're they're beyond its prime it may be degrading and so you you can't really trust that you need to have a solid supply chain who's vetted so it's kind of like in New York there's uh Canal Street where they sell you know their uh perfumes brand name perfumes in the box in these stores now the guys on the sidewalk selling those handbags those are knockoffs so that's why they they kind of scatter once uh the police show up but the perfumes are indeed legal now what they don't tell you is that perfume could be 12 years old because there was a store that was on I don't know on Broadway somewhere and then they closed and somebody bought his closeout inventory and then that guy sells it somewhere else and so that inventory could be floating around for years and then when people buy it it says you know it kind of smells like that but it's so weak or it smells different and that's the reason why because you can't see an expiration date on the packaging so you have no idea if that bottle is you know two years old or 20 years old.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah what is the normal like expiration date for most perfumes like what is like usually like the shelf life of a scent so they use um something called the period after opening which is PAO and packaging it looks like a jar that has its lid open and the normal is 24 to 36 months.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_00: So after you buy it it's good for one of those time frames so two to three years after you open it and start to use it it should be good.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_00: That's pretty safe bet.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_00: So you know its perfume is really going to go bad like a cream or lotion will because those have water um and they need preservative systems in them.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's if it has water.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: So not all you know products have water in them.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: You have to look at your ingredients and that's why some people buy just small jars because they don't want to buy a big one then have it start to go bad on them.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_00: We've made face oils that don't have any water in them and then those will last longer so those can last three years.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: But you know if you use it all the time and every day then it's not even going to last you three years.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna be done with it in you know a year.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_01: Right right no that makes sense that makes sense I didn't know that though that's good to know that because you know it's interesting because I have these these little things that come across my feed of people that have these like really huge perfume collections.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean like 500 different scents and it's a whole room full of them and uh I always wonder I'm like how good are those you know perfumes that have been sitting around for four years on your shelf you know do you still wear them and should you wear them is my question.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I'm a little curious there because there's a lot of people like that.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_00: I used to work with this woman Rachel Ann and uh she's a huge collector.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: So with her she uses up their family refrigerator puts the perfume bottles and you know their you know Tupperware in the fridge and she marks them all.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: She has a great inventory system and her husband can vouch for that because it's taking air space from the fridge.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then of course you never keep your perfumes like near heater or indirect sunlight.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_00: You always want to keep it in a cool dark spot so it doesn't uh degrade because of the ultraviolet light from the sun or the heat that's going to raise the temperature and kind of break it down.
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: So keep those valuables in a cool dark place.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: So you don't have to keep it in your fridge but um that's that's the first rule of thumb keep it out of direct sunlight and heat.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting okay so that's I mean I I have heard like there are some yeah like what you're mentioning there are some storage protocols there.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah I I I'm the kind of person I have like three fragrances with me you know what I mean at all times.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like I I'm not a collector by any means but I keep like the things that I know I'm gonna run out of you know what I mean I'm gonna use them so much that I eventually I run out and I re-repurchase but I always I'm always curious about collectors because there's just so much you know and and so do you you don't even get to use I guess half your collection you know most of the time because who has time to use 700 perfumes I I know this.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah well maybe um but you know one of my big questions I guess it really is about you know what your view has been because you you know you've been in the game for a long time you know you guys have been around and you've pretty much seen everything so how have you seen the space shift in like the last 10 years if you were you know to look at it like the fragrance industry and how it's been you know portrayed in social media or or whatever you know how have things evolved from what you've noticed there never were niche brands really you you would you may have hear of a brand say you know you go traveling to Europe or to Paris this is in the 60s and 70s and you find something there that's not sold in the US you buy it and it's you know that's great.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's a find.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you know you somebody friend family comes back and you get something as a gift.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Now with this whole you know it's a global economy you can go on online and have it delivered to your house in three days or three weeks depending on what it is you're buying and how fast you want it to get here.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: So that is something that did not exist uh when I started also it's with the ability for you know a person to start their business in their home legit or not legit it's you know they they're doing it and I have you know a few people that started like that and so then they'll come to me and they say hey you know what I have this business I've been doing it for two years I'm hitting these roadblocks and or they say now I want to uh you know come out with a you know a legit product and be able to sell it in in stores not just at flea markets or on Etsy um that is something that did not exist.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: So with these new um niche brands you know they're able to start and you know uh I I know quite a few that have done well and then wind up being purchased by larger companies.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: They're uh doing it in their kitchen I tell them well you know that's great you did this and you have a formula kind of works so let's consider all that in the past research and development and now you want to go into proper production of your cosmetic or fragrance product.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_00: So then we have to you know scale up and do things the right way so that you can you know get the product liability insurance and then pitch your product to retail stores so that you know you'll sell more not just 12 bottles to your friends or or 100 bottles a year.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: That's not really sustainable.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: So you know that's that's something that has changed over the past uh 10 20 years.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_01: No that's it's very interesting because yeah you know I've I've noticed a lot of smaller brands pop up especially like you know on the day-to-day radar I know when I was growing up it was like you know we had as teenagers we had Victoria's Secret right like you went there and you bought their little you know whatever uh perfume they had and then you know sometimes I would experience something that one of my parents would you know introduce me to or something but it was never like uh the world it is now you know so I can definitely see what you mean because now I feel like everybody has a little fragrance line that they're you know they're trying to say this is this is a new thing.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: I think my my favorite of all time has recently I came across like this whole neuropsychoactive perfumery niche that people are really getting into and you know it's just a very interesting way that fragrances are changing you know for me even as a consumer so I would just wonder from your perspective you know how much validity you see in these kind of things you know when you see things like the those kind of claims like you know this is like psychoactive perfumery or whatever.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah I wouldn't really trust that they're making medical claims and if they are something like I don't know some sort of mushroom that they foraged for in their you know friend's backyard that's just a little you know and if it is indeed some mushroom how do you know somebody's not gonna have you know a very bad allergic reaction so ingredients that are supposed to be used in cosmetics.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: So while it s sounds interesting it's it's just kind of dangerous to do that.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like the same thing with pheromones you know there really aren pheromones that work for humans otherwise if there were I would have been married already so not legit bogus claim you know these things are getting squashed every once in a while by FTC because of the FDA doesn't even worry about that but FTC does and you know you'll just get a letter or cease and desist and nothing else that's that's you know people making these claims like that it's it shouldn't be in a perfume.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: If it's something you know you really want to explore then go ahead but um putting it in a perfume it just doesn't make sense.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_01: Right right now and yeah I I know what you mean and you know I guess my then my follow-up question would really be like I would love to get your advice you know because I know a lot of entrepreneurs tune in and like you know right now it's it's that time for some reason.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone wants to start a brand and I can see why you know everyone wants to have their own thing and they want to do it but I would love for you to offer truly like you know words of wisdom when it comes to this this industry you know with fragrance and if you want to start a perfume brand if you're out there listening and you're somebody who's considering it you know um for somebody like that Daryl if you could offer some words of wisdom about what they should and should not do just from the get-go, you know, to avoid any kind of things in the long run it's um is it just a fragrance brand or is it a product line extension to your fashion brand?
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the big two that I get so um if it's just a fragrance line how many fragrances do you want to launch one three twelve and then you know kind of what is the price point you want what type of ingredients do you want uh the people that have uh an idea of what they want me to create helps a lot more so it's kind of like I I work with this woman Kata and you know our first meeting she had a list of things that she wanted she wanted a couple of fragrances and she wanted one well like A B C D E the other one uh some notes of B and then EFGH so when I kind of put this on paper and we looked at the ingredients and so okay I know how to construct this.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like going to a restaurant or having somebody make your omelet so okay I want like a ham and cheese and then you can get more specific ham and Swiss ham and gruyere.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: So then the more specific you are then the closer to your you know your dream omelet we're gonna get if you ask the chef it's like okay I want an omelet what what's good here you know then you're holding up the line that's like well it's all good here that's why we offer it all so what do you want you know so you know if you just really don't have a clue you need to focus on what do you want?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want it to smell like what do you want it to look like what kind of stores would it be on the shelf next to you know so stores like Barney's used to be the benchmark.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: So without that now there are other retailers you know Sachs Bergdorf and you have um Sephora you've got Credo so these are all retailers and what's your price point?
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_00: Because the price point will help determine the quality of the packaging yeah you know 30 ml 50 ml 100 ml what size um how do you want to decorate your bottle uh and one of the first things you have to get out of your head is if you're starting out don't even think about a custom bottle so custom the mold for a custom bottle could be you know$20,000 and then you probably have to run who knows 20 30 5000 bottles of your custom bottle so it doesn't make sense I always tell people go with the classics stick with stock bottle options and then as you you know proceed you can always decorate it.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I've taught some classes in package design and I'll show people the same bottle used by four different companies but the way they decorate it and spray the bottle or put labels on or you know that makes a huge difference.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah yeah it's like how many dresses do you have in your closet?
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: What are you gonna wear you know um but it's how you dress up you know that makes a difference and makes you feel a certain way.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right right now that's solid I mean that's that's really solid advice because I do see that a lot you know or something like you know I as a consumer like I can say there's been times where I've bought a fragrance that has like a really nice bottle or packaging and it just turns out to be total like not my vibe you know what I mean when I try the the scent itself and it's not even the notes you know when you look at like the you see the profile of the perfume it's just I feel like people spend so much money on the packaging that they forgot about the juice you know so it's like I don't know it can go both ways but that's really solid advice.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much Daryl for sharing and for anyone listening out there that's like starting a brand or if you're thinking about starting a perfume brand I mean I guess do your homework you know and make sure you know you have the facts before you just get out there and and make something subpar, I guess.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's number one, um you have to be passionate about what you're doing.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_00: People that aren't passionate they just want to come out with a fragrance to make money you know I sometimes I'll pass on those projects because it's a waste of my time.
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_00: You know I want to see the sparkle in somebody's eye when they smell something I've created to show them it's oh my God that's great or that's you know or even if it's you know I kind of like it but there's something I don't like about it, which is fine.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_00: You know, then we can work through it.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_00: So okay what don't you like?
• 43:17
  SPEAKER_00: And if they don't know then it's a longer conversation and then we'll figure out what ingredient that is in it that they don't like.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know is number one because you know life's too short to you know mess around with stuff that you're not stoked about.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely no absolutely I couldn't I couldn't agree more with that statement.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's that's really what beauty and this whole industry is supposed to be about you know is just making people feel good and it's like you're not gonna do that if you cut corners.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: So just do what you know do it the right way do what makes you happy and hopefully that resonates with your customers.
• 43:53
  SPEAKER_01: So I totally vibe with that and I I resonate with what you said.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: But thank you so much Daryl this has been such an honor hosting you and you know and the insight is so valuable you know from someone who really knows the space and you've been you've seen it you know and I think a lot of times I get a lot of this information from people who are just now entering the fragrance world you know what I mean and they haven't they haven't seen the differences between natural and synthetic or whatever that might be.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like you keep getting these bits and nuggets of information and trying to piece together what's the real deal but it it's been such a great experience to chat with you.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you so much.
• 44:29
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for having me on my pleasure.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys so I hope you love that episode please make sure to hit subscribe if you're tuning in to us on any podcast platform.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_01: We are available on so many different platforms so wherever it is that you're tuning in, just go hit subscribe you will be immediately notified when we publish new episodes this way you're able to tune in to amazing insights from experts brand founders industry leaders authors all the wonderful people that we host and that's very important for me because I love to hear from you guys and really understand what you love and what you want to hear more of.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: Also make sure to give us a follow on all of our social media outlets we're available on Instagram, TikTok, X, you name it, we're there.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: We also have a blog on Medium so if you're a reader and you love medium blogs check us out on Medium.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: We publish some really great articles on there that do deeper dives than just what's available on the podcast and it's really a great place for all of you science geeks out there that want to learn a little bit more.
• 45:27
  SPEAKER_01: We go above and beyond with our research and making sure we're bringing you information that you usually probably won't hear about in other outlets.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: So check us out leave us a comment leave us a review and we'll be back next time with another episode.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.