Latest / Arts Unscripted with Monica Holt / Kate Lumpkin on Casting Masquerade NYC, Building Community, and Trusting Your Audience

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Kate Lumpkin on Casting Masquerade NYC, Building Community, and Trusting Your Audience · Arts Unscripted with Monica Holt

0:08
Welcome back to CI to Eye. I'm Monica Holt.
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Most people think casting is about finding the right person for the role.
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Kate Lumpkin thinks it's about building creative communities --
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and that philosophy is helping shape the future of American theater.
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Kate is the casting director behind Masquerade NYC,
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the immersive Phantom of the Opera that has six casts performing each night in
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New York and is redefining what theater can be. Now,
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she's cast over 80 theatrical productions,
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from underground Brooklyn warehouses to Las Vegas spectacles to the upcoming
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off-Broadway production of Tartuffe starring André De Shields.
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And as an assistant professor at James Madison University,
0:50
she's training the next generation of theater makers for an industry that's
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rapidly evolving.
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But what makes Kate's story so compelling isn't just her professional success.
1:00
It's her unwavering belief that audition tables don't have to be barriers,
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but can instead be places where everyone gathers to create together. That
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shift in thinking has led to healthier rehearsal rooms and stronger artistic
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partnerships and those values and the investment in the people around her. Well,
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that's been true since I first met her over 20 years ago when we were just two
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high school kids with Broadway dreams.
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Today we're talking about building artistic families,
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audiences under 40 who are driving theater's future,
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and why Kate believes we're living through one of the most important moments in
1:37
American theater. Plus,
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she'll tell us why every regional theater should consider doing Starlight
1:43
Express in their parking garage. Let's dive in.
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Kate Lumpkin, welcome to CI to Eye. It's so good to see you.
1:58
Hi Monica.
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I'm so glad you're here.
2:00
Me too.
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This is a crazy thing. So Kate and I have known each other since high school.
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Kate is responsible for most of my Broadway education,
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and so Kate in my mind always seemed destined for New York and
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destined for the stage. She also loved hearing people's stories.
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You were always learning about people. You wanted whole stories,
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you wanted backgrounds, you wanted the lore.
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So talk to me a little bit about how this alchemy of
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knowledge and specificity about what the Broadway world entailed and
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desire to be a part of it all merged ultimately with the Kate who also
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deeply cared about every human that she interacted with.
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When I left high school,
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I knew I was going to go straight to a BFA musical theater
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conservatory,
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and right after that I was going to get a job on Broadway and I was going to be
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hoofing on Broadway until the day that I died. There was nothing else.
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I look back on that and I think so much of that was because I just didn't know
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what other opportunities actually existed in the world of what we do.
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And so I had gone to New York. I had been an actor. I was doing all of that.
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I was working with Bill Esper at the William Esper Studio studying Meisner
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technique. And Meisner is foundational in the practice of
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listening. Everything about Meisner is like, listen to the other person.
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Listen to what they're not saying,
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and allow then your reaction to come from what you're
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seeing, hearing,
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and what their body is telling you. The practice of listening made me realize
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that I was more interested in listening than the talking part.
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And so when I decided I wanted to go back to school, I really was interested in,
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what is the study of humanity?
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What is the study of the in-between of the community?
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And how did those communities get built?
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And that's anthropology and that's folklore, right?
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That is the stories we tell communities to teach them who they are and to teach
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those outside of the community who they are as well.
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And so that's what I care about, right? At the end of the day,
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I think commercial theater is what got me into it. I was like,
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give me a kick line, give me a parwall.
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I want to hear skrelting for the gods, and I still love that.
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Let's be very clear.
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Oh, it's forever. Forever.
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I will cry, right?
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But I think as I grew older and realized what was actually calling me about that
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was not the shiny, shiny of the kick line,
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it was the folks holding each other's backs as they did it,
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and why our industry feels so much more like a
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community than so many other industries that exist.
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That actually raises one of the questions I had for you, which is,
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when you were pursuing your degree in cultural anthropology,
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did you already know that you wanted to apply that lens in casting, directing,
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education spaces or did that happen after as you emerged from school?
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It happened after I was in college.
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I got a job at National Geographic and I was working at Nat Geo and after about
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six months of that, I was like, God, I have to get back.
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And so I knew though if I was going to go back,
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I didn't want to go back in the same way that I had before.
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It wouldn't serve me in the way that I wanted to because for me,
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my experiences in auditions? Not it.
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They were not healthy, they were not great.
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And I also really wasn't liking the pictures I was seeing on stage,
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the bodies I was seeing on stage, the identities I was seeing.
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It was so repetitive. It was so white,
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it was so homogenous that I was so interested
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in that.
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So I think I kind of took that anthropology into Nat Geo where I learned a lot
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in that space and then decided I'm going to go back and do casting.
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Would you talk a little bit about how looking at the whole human became part of
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your initial approach to running a casting room and how that's evolved
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over time?
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I mean, I remember even before I met you, I was auditioning.
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I was like a child actor noodle doing all the things.
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And I remember when I was a kid, I was probably about 10 years old.
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I was auditioning in New York for a production of the Sound of Music.
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And I had been called back multiple times and I just remember being in the room
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and overhearing someone say, she's far too fat.
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I don't even know how she got this far. About me! I was 10.
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And I am now almost 40 years old and I can still feel it.
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I remember what studio I was in, I remember where I was standing.
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It shook with me to my core and created
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a worldview for me that has impacted so many things in my life.
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And I think I knew when I went back into casting,
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that was common practice in so many different ways. Not the
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saying of that, but the concept that we were not actually looking at people,
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but we were looking at product in space.
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And that doesn't mean that we're not creating a product. We are. Right?
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And it doesn't mean that all the pieces in it are not a part of that,
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but I really felt like there was a lack of remembering the humanity and honoring
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the humanity of the space.
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And I think part of that is because commercial theater is expensive and
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renting studios for people to audition in is expensive.
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And so we've got to move fast. We've got to make it a machine.
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We've got to do the thing. And I respect that. I get it.
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And there is a way to honor humanity while moving quickly.
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And so I think when I came back into casting,
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I really knew that's how I wanted to lead.
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One thing that I remember you talking about earlier in your casting
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career is this idea that there is no other side of the table and that
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you just think about the table as a place where you're all gathering.
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And the magic that can come from that,
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it changes the lens and can really open up a whole new level of
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freedom of expression and safety.
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The way you talk about that is so encouraging in a space that oftentimes
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feels gate kept.
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Yeah, we talk about this table. Tables in all societies, right?
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We're going to get back to anthropology. Tables are a space of communion.
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Tables are a place of community, and we're using it as a wall.
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So if you want to say I'm on the other side, then call it what it is,
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call it out for what it is and say, I am separate from you.
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Do not try to lie. People can read it in a room.
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I think about the Knights of the Round Table.
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I think of these places where people come together to put their weapons down and
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make. That's a table. That is what that is.
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And so when people say I'm on the other side of it, I'm like, what side of it?
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It's round, it's square. It's a place we all meet. And so with casting,
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a big part of what I wanted to do was let people know what the
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heck this art form is. In general,
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I think people have decided that all casting directors are the villain.
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That's okay. I can be the villain in your story if I need to be,
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but I won't be if you know what we actually do.
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And so a big part of what I wanted to do is demystify the role of a casting
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director, as I quite frankly was learning how to do it.
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I didn't know it's an apprentice based business.
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I had to learn through doing. And as I was learning, I was like,
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I want to use social media to share what this job is.
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I want to educate people on what this job is,
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and I want to give people an opportunity to practice in a really cost effective
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way.
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Do you remember what some of the first projects you were casting for were?
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Oh, for sure.
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My first casting job was in a small theatrical office and
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I was a casting assistant.
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And then my boss went to Italy and there was a project that
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I had been kind of assisting on, and he was like, okay, well I'm leaving.
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You're going to be running the room.
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The first room I ever ran was for a Kerrigan and Lowdermilk musical called The
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Bad Years, which turned into my first immersive piece of theater,
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which has led to my entire career.
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So I always am so grateful that that man decided to go to Italy. In that room,
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in Pearl Studios, I met Kerrigan and Lowdermilk,
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which I have worked with them now for quite a long time.
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And it was a young show.
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It was a show about a bunch of people who are late high school, early college.
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So I was meeting my peers,
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who were interesting and excited people who were doing pop rock musicals at the
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time,
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people who were interested in weird immersive Brooklyn stuff.
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And I loved being in that room and I have loved growing up
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with those people. And we are still making art together.
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So many of us that worked on the bad years are still making art. In fact,
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the show I'm working on right now, Masquerade,
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the producers of The Bad Years are the general managers of Masquerade.
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We've been doing this now for almost 15 years together and we have grown up
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together and we continue to make together. And so that show,
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actually the first big casting credit I have,
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was a show that changed my whole life.
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To your point about say yes,
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just say yes and do your thing and you don't know what'll come.
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And the truth is, Monica, I had no idea what I was doing.
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I had never led a room before.
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I had never even been in the room before because I was a casting assistant.
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So I had been setting up auditions, I had been monitoring,
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I had never run a room, but I was like, here we go. I got to try some time.
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And saying yes,
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and walking into that room and running it truly fundamentally set off every
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domino for the rest of my career. It's bananas.
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It's bananas.
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And what was it like just watching the immersive field grow from
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The Bad Years all the way to where we are now and who knows where we're going in
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the future? What is it like to have a front row seat to that?
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And what do you think was captivating people and what surprised you about it?
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I think the coolest thing is that people have always wanted it. That was,
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I think, the most interesting thing,
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is that there are people who have always
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wanted to step into the art.
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And we see this in cosplay, we see this in LARPing,
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we see this that people who are not professional actors,
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they want to be a part of it. They want to experience everything.
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They want to talk to the characters, they want to be a part of it.
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That has always existed,
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that market has been there and has been champing at the bit
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for experience. So what I will say is like,
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producers haven't always understood it.
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Sometimes it's hard to get people to write a check if they haven't seen it work,
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but when tickets went on sale for The Bad Years, it had many iterations.
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The first iteration was kind of in a loft. The second iteration was
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in a warehouse in Brooklyn.
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The show takes place at a house party, in essence, in the suburbs.
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And so a house was built inside a Brooklyn warehouse
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that then people were invited to this backyard house party.
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And I just remember people walking around with iPads talking about Ableton and
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how they were going to make it work in different rooms. And I was like,
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this is wild.
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And I was working on the marketing team at that point and casting and doing all
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these things because we all had 19 jobs to try to make something that had never
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been made before work. So I remember I had an earpiece in,
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and I'm running the line outside of the warehouse while a fire marshal's being
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called because we didn't get the fire marshal credential in time for the --
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it was mayhem.
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And a bunch of people in their twenties trying to make something that they had
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never seen before. And when it hit? God,
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there was a number at the end of the show where everyone was just jumping.
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Everyone who came to see it was jumping up and down together and singing
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together.
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And there's this video of a guitar in the air just pumping with these lights and
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you see people crying and people had never experienced anything like it.
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And then they walk out and they go to artichoke pizza and they get a slice and
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they get on the G train and they go home.
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It was so cool to see all of those different things and then to now be working
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in this space where it's happening in Las Vegas and it's happening in New York,
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in this kind of huge, off Broadway way,
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it's been so cool to watch the people who are willing to struggle to make the
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art thrive now be in a place where it's not... it's not not a struggle,
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but they were willing to throw down for so long that now it's like the roses are
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growing. And now, I mean,
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it's built on the hustle of all of you all who created The Bad Years and who
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created experiences like that back when there wasn't --
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were more questions than answers when folks thought it was too risky.
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And now it feels like it's everywhere in all different forms and
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qualities.
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You've also I think become the go-to for what a lot of these experiences require
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from a casting perspective,
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because it's not as straightforward as a proscenium
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presentation, both in what is required of any given role,
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but also what the makeup is behind the scenes.
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How do you compare the experiences of casting for a
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standard classic or contemporary musical or play versus a
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360 immersive experience?
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So I think a couple things. First and foremost,
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even just you using the word standard means everyone has an understanding of
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what they're signing up for when they do that.
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So a big part of the casting and contracting is just explaining
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what it is that you're actually signing up to do.
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Even if you've gone through the whole audition process, it's like, no, no, no.
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Let me be very clear. One more time.
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You're going to be running up and down six flights of stairs.
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You're all going to be sharing a dressing room,
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depending on what the project is.
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A lot of the things just are inherently different and people who haven't done it
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don't know. The other piece is,
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so many actors get very used to acting in a space that
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has a balcony,
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and you have been taught to project in a certain way and perform in a certain
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way and cheat out,
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and all of these things that you're taught and in your classes,
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and immersive theater is so different than that.
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In many processes that I've worked on,
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you have to do a scene and then you have to look at someone and say, okay,
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great.
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Now pretend you're in a room with 12 people and you have to do the exact same
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scene we just did, but there's a person a foot away from you,
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and you have to know they're there but not know they're there.
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Stay focused on the thing that you're doing, and it has to feel really intimate.
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And a lot of actors clearly are capable of this,
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but that muscle has never been stretched.
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And so my job is kind of like, how do we run a standard,
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normal musical theater audition, let's say with the standard kind of big three,
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singing, dancing, and acting?
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Then how do we create something that serves the creative team to let them know
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how these humans will work in an immersive environment?
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And then how do we also take care of the actors and their representation to make
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sure they actually know when they sign that contract what they have signed up
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for?
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And so those two other buckets are big additional steps that you
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don't normally have to do when you're just like, no, it's a private contract.
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You're going to be at the Majestic Theater and you'll have your dressing room on
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the second floor. People know what that is,
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but when you're doing a house musical in a Brooklyn warehouse,
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it's a different experience to explain to someone as well and to create a
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room that shows you what you would need in that space.
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Yes, and I think casting directors are often kind of positioned as translators
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between the creative team and the actors and folks joining.
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As you're creating that kind of creative family,
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I imagine that work is tenfold with what you're describing in something like
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this. And again,
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your background and your education really, I think,
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serves that translation skill well.
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Yeah, I think it's this interesting combination of, like I was saying,
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the Meisner technique of listening and being present and reacting
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mixed with --
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that kind of anthropological sense really is super helpful when you're also
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thinking,
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people hire me a lot and they say they hire me because I'm really good at
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finding people who are good on the bus, quote unquote.
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Which goes to touring lingo. Like, who's somebody who might be good on the bus?
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Someone who will show up on time,
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who's going to be a good citizen of the company, who's going to be there?
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And so a lot of times I'm hired because I'm really good at finding really hard
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challenging finds, and because the people I find I really --
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we lovingly say in my office, we don't hire assholes.
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So that's also a big part of immersive is trying to make sure you get a group of
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humans who are all ready to play in the same game.
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It's not even just making sure we're all playing the same sport,
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but making sure that we are in the same exact game,
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in the same arena with the same players and that everyone is going to work
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together because it's really challenging, really physical, really intimate,
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really personal.
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But that's great hiring advice across the board. I mean, good on the bus.
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That's a term that we should all be using all the time.
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Since we're talking about immersive...
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Yeah?
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There's one big project you've mentioned: Masquerade,
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Off Broadway in New York. A huge endeavor.
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Certainly different, I would imagine, in scale than The Bad Years,
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although the hustle might be the same.
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I was lucky enough to go see it last week. It's gorgeously done.
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Gorgeously sung.
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The casting is astounding just from a quality
19:20
standpoint, but oh my God, the complexity of this show,
19:25
the way I want to see the stage manager's script,
19:29
the way that I want to have a behind the scenes view of every room
19:34
and how it all works and is turned over. I'll let Kate explain,
19:39
but there are six different casts every night doing the show.
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I said that --
19:45
six different casts of essentially Phantom of the
19:49
Opera. So Kate,
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could you tell us a little bit about the concept of Masquerade and how you
19:58
approach casting something that, as you said,
20:01
you're going to have to do a lot of translating for,
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but also you're probably going to need about 3000 Excel spreadsheets to
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understand how it all knits together?
20:12
The spreadsheets are my favorite thing. Yeah, I mean, I think,
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so I got a prep call that I was being considered for the project,
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and everything inside of me started to buzz out of fear.
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And that's when I knew I must fight to do this. If something is this scary,
20:28
I have to do it and I have to find a way to do it.
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So I did everything in my power to try to convince the producers and Diane
20:35
Paulus to choose me to work on this project. And for some reason they said yes,
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and I am forever grateful to them for having me be a part of this process.
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And it was so hard.
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My body was right when it was like buzzing with fear because it
20:53
just hasn't been done like this before,
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especially for a musical and a musical that everybody has some
21:00
knowledge of. I would say up there with Hamilton,
21:04
this is one of those musicals that people just know. They hear that,
21:09
and you know what it is,
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which is so cool and so scary when you have to hold that weight as you
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start a project. We were doing it in a different way.
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That's what I think is so beautiful about this project is, its Phantom,
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but it's also its own creation from Diane's brilliant mind.
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And so when they approached me and said,
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there are going to be multiple companies, I was like, okay.
21:33
And then when it was like,
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we think there are going to be six companies and coverage, I was like,
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ah! Sir Andrew Lloyd Webber wrote a very challenging piece of music that
21:45
you have to have a very specific style of instrument to navigate,
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and there's an expectation of what that instrument is going to sound like. That
21:53
already is hard, but the hardest part, actually -- there are six shows.
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They start 15 minutes after each other.
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So some people are doing multiple shows a night, i.e.,
22:04
they are an ensemble member who does their track for
22:09
all six shows or three of the shows or whatever.
22:11
Then to have to find nine to 10 people to play the role,
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including the six who are doing it, and then all the covers who also,
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by the way,
22:19
are covering those roles and have to play other things in the show every night
22:23
was just really, really challenging to figure out. Also,
22:26
throughout this process, who was going to cover --
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what rooms people could be in to be able to play this thing and then also play
22:33
this thing. But we were also doing it under the veil of secrecy,
22:36
which made it even harder.
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We couldn't actually talk about what show we were working on for so many reasons
22:42
that are valid and important. So I was also trying to convince agents to send
22:47
me people for this untitled project that was immersive,
22:52
and they know me. So they thought this was like underground EDM,
22:55
like shwack shwack boom in a Brooklyn basement. And I was like, no, no.
22:59
I promise this is real. This is --
23:01
It'll be worth it.
23:03
This is a big thing! Tony Award-winning creative team!
23:07
And so I think it stretched every single piece of my business and my
23:12
creative and my directorial brain,
23:14
all of these pieces to build what this world is and
23:19
also to make sure they be good on the bus because this was the first
23:24
time. Think about it,
23:26
that means during rehearsals you have six men who are playing the Phantom and
23:30
two covers in a room together learning the same role.
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And that could have been an egotistical mess if you just think about
23:39
it. And they're like a brotherhood. They are all good on the bus.
23:44
It's the same.
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All of these people who are playing the same role at the same time,
23:48
they're sharing that role and there's such a respect for it.
23:51
So we also really were looking for people who felt comfortable doing that.
23:54
And that's not everybody. That's hard. That is hard to let that go.
23:58
So yeah, it was complicated.
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Folks, like it or not,
24:04
have a predetermined idea of what they think a cast of Phantom of the Opera
24:09
should be, particularly if they've seen it before,
24:11
particularly if they've seen it on Broadway or the movie or what have you.
24:15
So talk a little bit about how the lens
24:20
along with the rest of your creative team was applied into a space where
24:26
you have a pretty constrained set of
24:31
needs for these roles because of the immersive,
24:33
but you also have an opportunity to have six casts that can maybe
24:38
sound, look, feel different from each other.
24:41
They don't have to be mirror images of each other throughout the night.
24:44
And this idea that you can uphold identity in spaces that maybe
24:49
haven't had that type of freedom before.
24:52
How did you tackle that for a product like this?
24:55
Yeah, I mean,
24:56
I think part of the reason why I got this job is because I was like,
24:59
if you hire me, this is not going to look like it has in the past.
25:03
This is a really incredible opportunity to allow a myriad of
25:08
different perspectives to come into play here.
25:11
And so if we're being really honest and we just look back,
25:15
the fact that I can name the five performers of
25:19
color who have played a Christine Daaé or a Phantom or Raul on Broadway,
25:24
that makes me sad that in 30 years of actors I can just be like, oh,
25:28
here they are and name them.
25:30
And so something that I was really passionate about and that Diane was really
25:33
passionate about,
25:34
was making sure that this world was inhabited by so
25:38
many different identities and personhoods and ages,
25:43
and we have just a beautiful array of
25:48
humanity telling the story in very different ways. And this is, to my knowledge,
25:52
the first time that we have three people of color leading the production every
25:56
night in New York City where we have a black Christine,
26:00
an Asian Phantom, and a Latinx Raul.
26:04
And that's just one of the six companies.
26:06
So that to me makes me so proud.
26:09
You go to see this show and you actually see the world that exists around you,
26:13
and the casting director has the opportunity to open doors.
26:17
We don't get to make final decisions, but we sure get to open doors.
26:20
And so when you are given a project like this,
26:23
to be given the agency by the creative team to make suggestions that maybe other
26:27
people might not have considered in the past, it was an incredible gift.
26:32
And I think that it has been really beautiful to see the response to just so
26:37
many different pieces of identity. Not just race,
26:41
but body and age and just personhood in general has been really
26:46
cool. And I'm very,
26:48
very proud of where we landed with this company.
26:54
You should be. Also,
26:55
it gives people a great excuse to go see it more than once to experience.
26:59
I keep telling them,
26:59
I think we should do a punch card where if you see all the [casts],
27:03
you get something special.
27:06
I love that.
27:06
It feels a little like going to a pizza restaurant, so maybe not.
27:10
Listen,
27:11
we should all be so lucky if our local pizza restaurant takes us through a full
27:16
Andrew Lloyd Webber phenomenon on our way.
27:18
That's our next project. Immersive Pizza Hut.
27:19
Yeah, Immersive Pizza Phantom.
27:22
What does it feel like to be part of the Andrew Lloyd Webber renaissance?
27:25
Monica.
27:27
We started this conversation by saying I was your neuro-spicy 14-year-old
27:32
friend who was obsessed with things.
27:33
So what the listeners at home don't know is that my house
27:38
and life, my office, all of these things,
27:40
are basically like a museum of Broadway.
27:42
I have been a collector of things,
27:46
set pieces, all of these things, my whole life.
27:49
And so two of my most prized possessions are the original Coke can from the
27:54
set of Cats on Broadway,
27:56
and Christine Daaé's pointe shoes from one of the original companies in the
28:00
eighties signed by the whole cast. I love Andrew Lloyd Webber.
28:04
I am unabashedly the biggest fan of even By
28:09
Jeeves and The Beautiful Game, all of these things.
28:12
All deep cuts. Deep cuts.
28:13
Deep cuts! Deep cuts. I'm not just giving you Joseph here, friends,
28:16
we're going back to By Jeeves.
28:18
I love Andrew's work.
28:22
And so to have this moment where -- I'm also an educator,
28:27
I'm also a professor,
28:27
and my students are discovering Andrew Lloyd Webber for the first time because
28:32
of this renaissance. And they're coming in and they're so excited about Evita.
28:35
It's so beautiful to have someone like Rachel Zegler coming in and bringing this
28:39
whole new generation of people into these gorgeous, lush,
28:44
unabashedly big, beautiful stories.
28:47
And something that I love about Lloyd Webber's work is that it's full of
28:52
feeling. No one writes feeling.
28:57
You can't listen to it and not be overwhelmed by love
29:02
or overwhelmed by fear or power or desire.
29:07
Or fully radicalized by the new production of Evita.
29:10
There you go.
29:14
You feel it always. When I'm teaching my students, I say,
29:17
you feel Lloyd Webber in your sternum. It just cracks it open.
29:22
And I think even people who are not super fans can admit that even if it's not
29:26
their favorite music or they don't listen to it all the time,
29:28
that it's a wallop when you hear it of sound.
29:32
And so to even be the tiniest part of this moment
29:36
is insane.
29:37
16-year-old Kate is crying every night just kicking her little feetsies in her
29:42
bed, like, how did we get here?
29:45
And it's just really cool to think if I do nothing else after this,
29:49
I was a part of a very special, important,
29:53
landscape-changing piece of art.
29:55
Yeah, that's right.
29:56
And also just the relevancy piece of the renaissance is what I find
30:01
fascinating because with each of these Andrew Lloyd Webber shows that are having
30:05
this moment, there is something experiential about each one,
30:09
whether it's the Jellicle Ball and the way that you're just geared
30:14
up in that audience and you are part of the ball,
30:17
even if you're sitting in your pretty chair... Obviously Masquerade,
30:20
you are in the world. You are part of the story.
30:23
You are watching Christine get the Think of Me solo right in front of you.
30:27
Sunset Boulevard and Evita bring it to the people!
30:30
I know.
30:31
This is my big thing is Evita is saying eight things at once with that
30:35
scene. And even the people at the beginning who were unsure about that choice,
30:39
I think have come around because you realize, again,
30:43
you are creating broader communities,
30:44
you are inviting more people into the story, into the art form,
30:49
and it feels so important. And I love that it is happening with this
30:54
wall of music and emotion that comes with every show that
30:59
Andrew Lloyd Webber creates. And it's spectacular.
31:02
And to think about your students learning about this...
31:06
So I'd love to talk about the work that you're doing at JMU.
31:10
You're an assistant professor there. You are teaching, you are mentoring,
31:15
you are directing, you are bringing all of your knowledge into a room,
31:19
but you are also probably getting a lot from being with the
31:24
next generation that rises.
31:25
So talk to me a little bit first about how you decided to engage in coming
31:30
back into the education space from this professorial lens and what that meant
31:35
to you and how you kind of grappled with that choice alongside all of your other
31:40
commitments.
31:41
Yeah, I mean, I think like everyone else in the arts,
31:44
COVID was a massive moment
31:49
of reflection and reinvention. When that happened, I mean,
31:52
I lost 22 contracts in 24 hours
31:57
and within the first two months we had to disband my office.
32:03
It was awful. And luckily something that I had done prior to COVID --
32:07
I'd been so fortunate because of my casting career to go to a lot of colleges
32:10
and do masterclasses and teach in that way.
32:12
I worked for a company called the Broadway Collective where I was the head of
32:15
education and was touring around the country and teaching masterclasses.
32:19
And I love it. I love it.
32:21
And so after the first year of COVID,
32:24
I got a call from someone who was working at James Madison University that they
32:28
were doing a production of Once and needed a director choreographer.
32:33
And I knew this person and they knew that that was my favorite show,
32:36
my dream show. I've always wanted to direct it. So they were like, Hey,
32:39
what are you doing? And I was like, exactly nothing. What are you doing?
32:44
They were like, do you want to come make this thing? You have total agency,
32:49
you would be directing and choreographing. You could build whatever you wanted.
32:51
And I said, sign me up.
32:54
When I got here and got to work with these students, I was like, oh,
32:58
this whole chamber of my heart had been empty that I didn't even know.
33:03
My whole body was running and my heart was working,
33:05
but there was a whole piece that was not full. And when I got here, I was like,
33:09
okay, I have to find a way to get blood pumping in there all the time.
33:13
And luckily while I was here, someone got another job and left.
33:18
And so they were like, hey, you're going to be here anyways,
33:21
making this show. You want to teach a few classes as a visiting professor?
33:25
And I was like, okay. And once I did that, I mean, it was a done deal.
33:29
So I applied for a position and I was like,
33:34
look, I'm not going to give up my business.
33:35
I'm not going to give up this career that I have and these things that I want,
33:38
but I want to find a way to make them work.
33:40
Because also I think that our education system for the arts needs a
33:44
reboot in a big way.
33:47
And my experience in --
33:50
I started in an undergrad program and I left because it was very unhealthy for
33:54
me. I wanted to create spaces where people could learn in a healthy,
33:58
holistic way.
34:00
I wanted to provide real education about what's happening in the industry right
34:04
now by someone who's still doing the thing, not someone who did it 20 years ago.
34:10
And also I find that I am better at my career in New York
34:14
because I get to work with my students all the time and hear what they like,
34:18
see what they're interested in, talk to them about their lives.
34:21
It makes me better at the commercial entity that I'm doing outside of the
34:25
educational entity. It all feeds each other,
34:27
which is why I think every regional theater must have an educational department
34:31
and must do educational outreach because your theater will be better if you are
34:35
in a space where you are learning from the next generation of theater makers.
34:39
Yeah, looking to the next generation feels very important.
34:41
It also seems very important for the specific work you are doing
34:46
to also be able to craft a little bit about the
34:50
expectations. How are you good on the bus?
34:55
How can you be instilling that in folks from a really young age in a way that
35:00
traditional conservatories in the past 20 years I think were kind of ignoring,
35:04
right? That wasn't the focus, certainly.
35:05
No, not at all.
35:06
But I also wish that we were providing a space for more people who are
35:11
professional artists to be able to work consistently in higher education as
35:15
well, to not just come be a guest artist,
35:18
but be embedded in the fabric of higher education so that we are continuing to
35:23
teach what can be instead of what was.
35:26
Yeah.
35:27
We've really made a point of talking about a lot in the past few episodes,
35:32
the idea that artists defy categorization and our
35:36
systems are set up in a way that say,
35:40
you are an artist who does X and this program is for that art form,
35:43
and therefore you are an artist of that art form.
35:46
And if you think you want to do anything else, then go do that instead.
35:50
Exactly. Either or, not and. So I'm curious,
35:54
how do you encourage that kind of multihyphenate life for artists and
35:59
thinking beyond silos with folks who are
36:04
just getting started in what their careers could be?
36:07
I think that it is truly just a reminder that if you are siloed,
36:11
you do not work anymore.
36:14
And so I try to remind my students that if that's the case,
36:18
we have to be multi-makers.
36:20
We have to create so many different avenues for our art and that it doesn't make
36:24
you less than, it makes you a richer, more full,
36:27
more complete human and artist as you explore all the different facets of
36:32
who you are.
36:33
And the more things that you're passionate about that you lean into,
36:38
the more opportunities you have to be a better,
36:41
more brilliant version of yourself.
36:42
And that took me forever to accept because that was not at all what was taught
36:47
to me. And once I started learning like, oh,
36:49
I can leave that if it's not serving me and I can walk away and do this thing
36:53
and then come back and use the information and the knowledge and the cool things
36:57
that I learned over here back in my art and it's probably going to make me have
37:01
a better job.
37:03
All of those things are so apparent right now and in our
37:07
faces that it is becoming easier to teach that too.
37:12
That's great to hear. And I think that's right.
37:14
So what are your students teaching you right now that you wish more people would
37:17
listen to?
37:19
I think mostly what they teach me all the time is just the power of community.
37:22
We're doing something very right here.
37:24
I feel very positive about the way that our students treat each other,
37:28
talk to each other, love each other, make together.
37:31
It is mind blowing the power of the community
37:35
together.
37:36
It is nice to be around artists who are excited to make still,
37:42
and that is what I think makes me better at my job in New York.
37:45
There's no one who's jaded here. They're still learning, they're still growing.
37:49
They still want this because they care about this,
37:53
not because they care about the prestige or they care about the awards.
37:56
There are no awards to be won. They are doing it because they like singing.
38:01
They're doing it because they like the feeling in their body when they dance.
38:05
And so it is nice to be around that energy all the time. And honestly,
38:10
I think that kind of goes back to the immersive of it all and why I think that
38:15
is so important and why I think it is the future of what we're doing.
38:19
We have the best proscenium theater in the world streaming
38:24
in our hand every day. It's called TV and film.
38:29
We have the best actors of every generation making these beautiful stories
38:34
that we cannot walk into, that we cannot be present in.
38:39
And we have access to those all the time.
38:42
What we don't have is the ability to step into that movie and be a part of it
38:46
and feel it and touch it and smell it. And a proscenium is beautiful,
38:50
but doesn't always give you that.
38:52
And so I think when you ask what I'm learning from my students,
38:54
it's that I am learning from them: I want to be in it.
38:58
I want to be a part of it. I want the churchgoing of a theatrical experience,
39:03
which feels different in 2025 than it did in 1975.
39:09
They are teaching me to meet the moment. That is what they are teaching me.
39:14
Are there things that you'd like to see more theaters or performing arts centers
39:18
doing in their spaces to help create that sort of
39:23
experiential notion?
39:26
I think that we need to trust that audiences are excited about
39:31
experiencing something new. So someone asked me the other day,
39:34
what would you do if you had to take over a regional theater? And I was like,
39:37
I would try to find a way to put my audience on the stage and my actors in the
39:40
seats. That would be the first thing I would try to do.
39:43
Love that.
39:46
Flip the theater. You say you can't do immersive theater. Have you tried?
39:51
You say you can't fit something in this theatrical space. Says who?
39:55
It might not look like Masquerade NYC,
39:57
but there are so many different areas, crevices, places,
40:01
things that you can use. Why not? Do you have a parking deck?
40:04
What if you did a show in your parking deck? What does that look like?
40:08
Who says you can't do Starlight Express in your parking deck?
40:10
There are so many --
40:11
Brilliant.
40:13
-- and that might sound asinine to people listening to this,
40:15
and that's fine by me. Let me be asinine, let you have the better idea.
40:20
But I think that we put so many limitations on our
40:25
spaces when really there are ways to open those doors and play that you just
40:29
haven't tried. And there are audiences who are excited to do that.
40:34
Tap into your local communities of people who are playing D&D,
40:38
who are LARPing, who are cosplayers, who are theatermakers,
40:43
and other avenues, and bring them into your space. Ask them what they want.
40:47
How can they be a part of the making that you are doing?
40:50
Community outreach for people who are already doing creative play.
40:55
How do we bring them into their spaces and their communities into your spaces
40:58
and build from there instead of just ticket subscribers who have always been
41:01
there for generations.
41:02
Who are the people who are actively playing right now outside of your space,
41:06
and how can you make them play inside in a new way?
41:10
Open your doors and play.
41:12
I mean, it sounds so silly, but isn't that what the whole point is?
41:14
No, it doesn't sound silly at all. And it is the whole point.
41:17
It's joy and community. That's what it's always going to come back to. Okay.
41:21
Our quickfire culture questions are next.
41:25
Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. These are my favorite. Okay.
41:27
Are you ready?
41:28
I dunno. We'll try.
41:29
Okay. What is one piece of culture you're currently obsessing over?
41:37
Okay, a couple things. I'm currently obsessing --
41:40
I'm rewatching Downton Abbey because I'm so excited about the final movie that's
41:44
coming out. Think about that what you will.
41:46
I am currently unabashedly obsessed with Masquerade NYC.
41:50
I know I'm a part of it, but I am obsessed with it.
41:52
We love. We stan.
41:52
And I'm also really excited about this
41:57
cultural moment of going outside.
42:03
The renaissance of being outside.
42:05
Being outdoors. We love her. It's also so interesting.
42:09
Several folks have mentioned one of the things they're currently obsessed over
42:13
is a show that they're rewatching or like an older show that they're watching
42:17
right now.
42:18
And obviously all I do is rewatch shows that I love because
42:24
I have anxiety,
42:24
and that's a very soothing process when you know how it's going to end.
42:27
And I wonder if that is true of more people,
42:30
that it's not just the comfort of, you know, like it,
42:34
it's not actually about taking risks. It's more about,
42:37
I know how it ends and we are in a moment right now where I think
42:42
I've never known less what's going to happen tomorrow, next week,
42:46
in five minutes, in five years. Downton Abbey is a great rewatch though.
42:51
I think I also, I love period dramas and I rewatch them all the time.
42:56
And I think it is for that reason. I know how it's going to end.
42:58
But also the problems are very different, but they still exist.
43:02
And the thing that is always persistent is passion and
43:06
family and community in all of them.
43:09
And that has been there forever.
43:11
Are we nervous about in the gilded age that the trains are coming?
43:16
Yes. But really is the gilded age about the trains? No, it's about the people.
43:21
And so I also am really drawn to period dramas that
43:26
remind me. It's just about the people. Focus on the people in your life.
43:30
If you could go back in time,
43:32
what is one performance or event that you would want to be present at?
43:40
Monica... This list is like 30 long for me.
43:42
I would love to have been present to see Audra McDonald in
43:47
Carousel in that production of the 1994 Lincoln Center production of Carousel.
43:51
And to witness the newness of her doing that. Oh,
43:56
I would've just died to have seen that.
43:59
I would've loved to have seen Julie Andrews in The Boyfriend and the newness of
44:03
Julie Andrews in that piece and who is this human being. Also,
44:08
I would've loved to have been at the very first performance of Wicked on
44:10
Broadway. And just to hear that
44:14
and to feel the audience be like, what are we about to see?
44:18
How much are we going to cry when they actually sing For Good in Part Two on our
44:23
screen? Because I'm already crying about it.
44:25
I can't talk about it Monica. I'm not ready. I'm not ready.
44:28
What is one free resource that can be applicable to any field --
44:32
it doesn't have to be theater -- that everyone should check out?
44:36
Their local public library.
44:38
If you have not been to your local public library since you were a child,
44:43
the time has come, the walrus said,
44:46
to get your booty to your local public library.
44:48
Get yourself a library card to prove that they are
44:53
still incredibly important cultural centers for every local
44:57
community. Get to your local public library, get a book,
45:02
check it out, sit there. Enjoy the space.
45:06
Look at all of the other educational resources they have, the classes they have.
45:10
The people who run those spaces are the backbones of your community and you
45:14
should engage with them. Don't forget they exist.
45:18
Well said. The time has come for your CI to Eye Moment.
45:23
If you could broadcast one message to boards, executive directors,
45:28
leadership teams, and staffs of thousands of arts organizations right now,
45:32
what would that message be?
45:35
People are desperate for art and people
45:40
are desperate.
45:42
So now is the time to find ways to bring your art to the people
45:47
and remind them that it is the thread to our humanity.
45:51
It is the thing that will save the polarization of this country,
45:55
and it's the thing that will save all of us.
45:57
But if we keep it behind doors and we keep it in price points where people have
46:01
no access to it, we will continue to rip.
46:05
And I think now is the time to sow.
46:07
So find a way to open your doors and make sure that the art that you are
46:11
creating is actually consumable.
46:16
Bravo, Kate. Thank you. Thank you for the time,
46:20
but also thank you for being a fundamental part of my life.
46:26
Thanks for teaching me about A Chorus Line when we were 14 years old.
46:29
The one show I knew nothing about.
46:31
That's a big win for me that I told you about Chorus Line.
46:34
She told me about literally everything else,
46:36
but that's the one thing I'm going to hold onto.
46:39
She said, have you ever heard of this show? I don't know how I hadn't,
46:42
but thank God for Monica.
46:44
Thank God. All right. Thank you. Love you.
46:47
Love you.
46:58
Thank you for listening to CI to Eye with Monica Holt.
47:01
If you enjoyed today's conversation,
47:03
please take a moment to rate us or leave a review.
47:06
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47:10
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please click the subscribe button wherever you get your podcasts.
47:17
We've got some pretty incredible episodes coming your way,
47:19
and I wouldn't want you to miss them.
47:21
This episode was edited and produced by Karen McConarty and co-written by
47:26
Karen McConarty and myself, Monica Holt.
47:29
Stephanie Medina and Jess Berube are our incredible designers and video editors.
47:34
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