Latest / Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD / Bonus Episode: Dr. Becky and the Bad Therapy Conversation

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Bonus Episode: Dr. Becky and the Bad Therapy Conversation · Wellness, Actually with Emily Oster & Perry Wilson, MD

• 0:01
  Speaker 1: Today, I'm very excited to bring you a special episode
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: of the parent Data podcast.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: We're doing something a little different.
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: I'm sharing an episode of Good Inside with Doctor Becky
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: in which I was a guest. Doctor Becky invited me
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: on her podcast to talk about Abigail Schreier's new book,
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Bad Therapy, and we talk about the book, but also
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: mostly we talk in general about the idea of setting
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: boundaries for kids, and about the value of independence and
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: how we think about the mental health issues that a
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: lot of kids are going through now. So I'm delighted
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: to share my conversation with Becky. She always makes me
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: think and it was a privilege to be on the podcast.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: I hope that you enjoyed as well.
• 0:49
  Speaker 3: I'm doctor Becky and this is Good Inside. Some context
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: for this episode.
• 1:01
  Speaker 4: In the last number of weeks, I've been asked over
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: and over what I think of this new book, Bad Therapy.
• 1:09
  Speaker 4: It has definitely been a hot topic in parenting circles
• 1:12
  Speaker 4: around the country. I've been asked about it over and over,
• 1:16
  Speaker 4: and so rather than reading other people's coverage of it,
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: I decided to pick up the book and read it myself.
• 1:22
  Speaker 4: And after I finished it, I really wanted to talk
• 1:26
  Speaker 4: about it, so I texted my friend Emily Emily Oster
• 1:30
  Speaker 4: the Emily Oster, Professor.
• 1:32
  Speaker 3: Of Economics at Brown, author.
• 1:34
  Speaker 4: Of Expecting Better, Cribsheet, a family firm, and host of
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: the amazing podcast parent Data, And because I wanted to
• 1:42
  Speaker 4: talk to her about it, I then decided, Hey, why
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: don't we kind of pause right now and instead of
• 1:48
  Speaker 4: having a private conversation, share the conversation with you. So
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: before we jump in, here's kind of the general premise
• 1:56
  Speaker 4: of Bad Therapy. American kids are the saddest, most anxious, depressed,
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: and medicated generation on record. We are seeing a generation
• 2:08
  Speaker 4: of parents simultaneously hyper fixated on the mental health and
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: well being of their children. There has been an increased
• 2:15
  Speaker 4: emphasis in the importance of feelings in parenting and education,
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: and more kids are in therapy today than ever before.
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: And what the author of Bad Therapy raises, What Abigail
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: Schreier argues is well, all of these parenting and educational
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: developments seem positive on the surface, is that really the case?
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: And in her new book Bad Therapy, Why the Kids
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  Speaker 4: Aren't Growing Up, she argues that these changes are actually
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: directly contributing to kids' mental health decline. Okay, Emily Oster
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: and I are going to get into all of this
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: right after this.
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: Emily, Hi, Becky, Hi, nice to talk to you. Thanks
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: for texting me.
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: I know when somebody like big is happening, and like
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: our joint world, I'm always like I have to reach
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: out to Emily.
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: I want to talk to her about this. It's good.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: I'm excited to talk about this.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: It's a question that I've gotten a lot, also, probably
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: less than you, but this is out there.
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: People want to know, people want to talk about it.
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: They want to hear.
• 3:37
  Speaker 4: So maybe we'll start general, then world dive specific and
• 3:40
  Speaker 4: I'll ask you first and then I'm happy to answer too.
• 3:42
  Speaker 3: What was your reaction, you know from reading the book.
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: So I think what's really interesting and really valuable about
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: the book is it comes into this space that I
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: think a lot of people are now in, which is
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: just recognizing that there is a pretty substantial trend over
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: time and kids in mental health issues, that mental health.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: Diagnoses have gone up a lot over time.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: And we charge talking about this during COVID, but it's
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: not just COVID. COVID is a continuation of a trend.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: You have many people with different ideas about why this
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: is so people will talk about Jonathan Heite talks about phones,
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: wants to put this at the feed of phones and
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: social media.
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  Speaker 2: This book puts it at.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: The feet of therapy and a sort of an overemphasis
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  Speaker 1: on feelings. That's an oversimplification, but that's a big piece
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  Speaker 1: of her argument. So what I think is really good
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: about this whole space is that it has gotten people
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: talking about this problem, which I think we can kind
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: of all agree is a problem. What's hard, and I'm
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: sure we will talk a lot about in this conversation,
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  Speaker 1: is when you have a long time trend, it's really
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: hard to say that it's due to something in particular, right,
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  Speaker 1: I mean, this is like my whole life is about
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: talking about things that are correlations and things that are causations.
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  Speaker 2: And one place not your.
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  Speaker 3: Family, family, you were more than your dad.
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  Speaker 1: But one of the things that is most challenging is
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: if you see a time trend in something, saying that
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: that time trend is due to something in particular is
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: an awfully large lift, partly because it's almost certainly true
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: that this is not just due to one thing. But
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: even if it were just one thing, how would you
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: find that one thing, since many things trend over over time.
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: So that's my broadest take on why this is an
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: important question to ask and why it's a hard problem.
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: Yeah, And to me, what I see around me too
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: is kids are really struggling and young adults are really struggling,
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: and I think there's a lot of data to support that.
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: I think you and I also see that around us.
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: She's highlighting that, and I think that's so important for
• 5:50
  Speaker 4: us to then be curious, like, well, why is this?
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: And I think it is also interesting we have parents
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: who are focused on parenting in a way that I
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: think a lot of generations before we're not. And at
• 6:02
  Speaker 4: the same time, we have these kids who aren't really struggling.
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: So to me, any gap that can allow us say like, well,
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  Speaker 4: what is going on here is useful.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: You know, the word parenting is like was not goinged
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: until the nineteen seventies, and before that it was child rearing,
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: and so this idea like people were like more involved,
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: And I think that's that's what she pulls out that
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  Speaker 1: strikes people as like what is going on? Like, you know,
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  Speaker 1: my parents did not pay My parents are great, they're wonderful,
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  Speaker 1: they did not pay the kind of attention I do
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  Speaker 1: to my kids or curate the kind of experiences. And
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: I think that's changed a lot over time, and it's like,
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: what am I getting for that? You know? Should my
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: kids be really the happiest because of all of my
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: focus on them?
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  Speaker 4: That's right, Well, let's jump into that one, because she
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: talks about that, and I know you and I have
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: privately talked a lot about that too, making our kids happy.
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: This is definitely a part of her book too, that
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: we are so focused on our kids being happy, which,
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: on the surface, I think a reaction like all right,
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: that's like that sounds good, but it is actually so pernicious.
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  Speaker 3: It's actually a chapter in my book.
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: So in that way, I think maybe our ideas around
• 7:08
  Speaker 4: it are different, but the outcome is similar, which is
• 7:10
  Speaker 4: that the more we focus on our kids being happy,
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  Speaker 4: the more we actually set them up to feel anxious
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  Speaker 4: and very kind of easily.
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  Speaker 3: Incompetent in the face of the distress that's inherent in life.
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  Speaker 3: So I'm what do you think about that?
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  Speaker 1: So she has a passage in the book about the
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: idea of kind of being happy, and this almost knee
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: jerk I statement, like of course we want people to
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: be happy.
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  Speaker 2: And then she talks to someone who's like book, like,
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  Speaker 2: really is.
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  Speaker 1: That your primary momentary goal? And of course it's not right.
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  Speaker 1: Most of the things, even as adults, that bring us
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: the greatest joy and fulfillment and that we identify as
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: the greatest pieces of our lives aren't delivering happiness like
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: the way like a bath does or something you know,
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  Speaker 1: right like, most of it is about fulfillment and what
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: Jennifer Wallace would call mattering or something that brings out
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  Speaker 1: our sense of being an important part of the world.
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  Speaker 1: That's not happiness in the kind of traditional wins. And
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  Speaker 1: we think about what we're delivering for our kids. I
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  Speaker 1: want my kids to feel content fulfilled, but I'm not
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  Speaker 1: sure that I would just necessarily want to describe it
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  Speaker 1: as I want them to feel happy, Because if you
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  Speaker 1: expect to feel happy all the time, you just I
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  Speaker 1: mean is she says things directly, like you expect to
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  Speaker 1: feel happy all the time, You're just going to be
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  Speaker 1: constantly disappointed?
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  Speaker 3: What one hundred percent?
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  Speaker 4: And you know, this ideas came to me right now
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  Speaker 4: where I think we have this new definition of happiness
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  Speaker 4: when we're focused so much on our kids being happy,
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  Speaker 4: because I think saying I want my kids to be
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  Speaker 4: happy it feels like a throw away comments, so I
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: can kind of get away with saying that. But what
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  Speaker 4: I see actually is I want my kids to have
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  Speaker 4: an absence of discomfort and distress, because if they're feeling
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: uncomfortable and upset, I kind of have to tolerate discomfort
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  Speaker 4: and upset. And it's just kind of a focus right
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: now on everybody in the family system getting out of there.
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  Speaker 3: There's like this phobia of discomfort.
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  Speaker 4: And when I think about the way that plays out
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  Speaker 4: in families, right, and then I think about what's really
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  Speaker 4: helpful long term for kids is being able to feel
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  Speaker 4: like it is okay to be me. When I'm struggling
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  Speaker 4: with this, I actually have some type of motivation in
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  Speaker 4: this moment, like I feel like I can get out
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  Speaker 4: of this or I'm going to figure this out. And
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: by the way, the feeling I'm going to get when
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: I finish this puzzle, or finish this essay, or even
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: get through this hard period with my friend, that's going
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: to be a really amazing feeling because it's the feeling
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  Speaker 4: of building competence, right, and when we remove all those
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  Speaker 4: in the name of I want my kid to be happy.
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  Speaker 4: I often think like we are stealing our kids learning,
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  Speaker 4: We are stealing their sense of competence. And I feel
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  Speaker 4: like the word fragility is you know, it's a somewhat
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: bold word, but we are kind of sending them the
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  Speaker 4: message that they're they're fragile, which is something I think Again,
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  Speaker 4: this book Bad Therapy touches on a lot.
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  Speaker 1: I think she draws a line which I do see
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  Speaker 1: between this scaffolding that we provide that we may provide
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  Speaker 1: that lowers competence when kids are younger and then the
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: issues that come up when they're older. Right, So she's
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: right in this space of you know, you need to
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: work on kids being able to do things on their
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: own when they're eight, so when they're eighteen.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: They can do that.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: And if you don't do that, then when they're eighteen,
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  Speaker 1: they will lack the competence to go to the store
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: by themselves and purchase a sandwich. There's some amazing stories
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: in the book in this space of lack of competence,
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: and that's that's actually the piece of the book that
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: I find most resonant is the idea of limiting kids'
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: ability to do stuff on their own, whether it's sort
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: of physical freedom outside the house, ownership over their own
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: school work, whatever it is, that those are things we've
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: way dialed down to the detriment of a development of
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: competence and problem solving, you know, because we're afraid that
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: they'll feel sad, or we're afraid they'll be scared, or
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: we're afraid that they'll get kidnapped, even though there's kind
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: of no evidence for.
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: That, right And I think you know, something I find
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: useful and just very practical, you know, to say to
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  Speaker 4: kids is when they're doing something for the first time,
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  Speaker 4: the second time, the fifth time, it's still considered new.
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  Speaker 4: The way that is supposed to feel is hard and uncomfortable.
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  Speaker 4: There is literally nothing in the world we do that
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: is worthwhile to figure out that is easy and therefore
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: comfortable in the beginning. Like the first time your kid,
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: you know, does an error on their own, they're gonna
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: feel nervous. The first time your kid is trying to
• 12:11
  Speaker 4: do some big multiplication sheet, they're going to feel frustrated.
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  Speaker 4: And I know saying to myself, wait, like this isn't pleasant,
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: and my kid is feeling this exactly right, actually allows
• 12:22
  Speaker 4: me to say to them in that moment, yeah, like
• 12:24
  Speaker 4: you're nervous, or yeah, this is hard, and I believe you,
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: And it's actually the exact way you're supposed to feel
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: like you're actually feeling this just right, actually brings down
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: the heat in that moment, whereas the opposite of okay,
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: I'll do it for you or okay, then you don't
• 12:40
  Speaker 4: have to do this. In some ways, what I'm actually
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: saying to my kid is you're not supposed to feel
• 12:45
  Speaker 4: that discomfort. So the next time you feel it in
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: different situation, you'll start to hear my voice saying, oh, no,
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: I'm not supposed to feel this way. Then you think
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: what you're doing is wrong, and then you have an
• 12:54
  Speaker 4: extremely limited group of feelings that feel okay, and you
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: have an extremely limited number of experiences and behaviors you're
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: willing to take on.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: So I find this so interesting because it gets to
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: me exactly where you and this book would have a disagreement,
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: or where I think she might have a have a disagreement,
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: which is.
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: That bring it.
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  Speaker 1: Both have the goal of getting kids to be able
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: to the next time something comes up, do it on
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: their own right.
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: That's the goal.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: And that's what's interesting to highlight. It's the same idea, right,
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  Speaker 1: I want the kid to understand that the next time
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: they encounter the hard math problem, they are going to
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: work through it on their own and in a way
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: or the fifth time or later, that they'll be able
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: to solve that problem or a version of that kind
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: of problem by themselves. Your approach is in this acknowledgment
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: of like, this is hard, and that's how you should
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: feel about it. Right, So it's not like I'll do
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: it for you and I just want to be happy.
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: It's that's a feeling that you have, and that's the
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: appropriate feeling to have here, and you need to do
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: the homework while you have that feeling, because that's a
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: feeling that you have when you haven't done something before.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: And that's great. I think she would come closer to
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: why are we acknowledging that feeling? Why are we spending
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: time on this adult idea of kind of feelings and emotions?
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: Just do the homework because it's your job to do
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: the homework.
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  Speaker 2: And you do the homework, and that's your job.
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: And at the end of the day, the homework is done,
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: and you know, maybe there's a little like there's a
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: punishment at the other end if you don't do it.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: But even putting that aside, that just there's really no
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: reason to acknowledge the feeling part of it. You should
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: just do it because you do things, and that's what
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: it is like to be an adult.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: So I'm curious how you react to that.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, great, love, I love this setup. Okay.
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: So one of the things that I think deeply relates
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: to that is do we have a hyper focus on feelings?
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: Is there a such thing as a hyperfocus of feelings?
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: And to me, I would say, of course there is,
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: like that of course is a real thing. But to me,
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: it's about the how, and to me, the nuance is
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: really important. And I also think there's always a middle
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: between extremes, and that's often that often is you know
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: something to consider and there's often something right about that.
• 15:22
  Speaker 4: So let's say back in the day, someone was like, Okay,
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: if I told my parents I don't know how to
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: do this math problem and I was kind of whining,
• 15:29
  Speaker 4: they'd be like, go to your room, finish math.
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: And the next time you whine, you're not gonna ge desert.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 15:33
  Speaker 4: Something like that okay, so and this is not in
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: her books, so let's just we're just riffing here. So
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: to me, there's an extreme. That extreme is go produce
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: the outcome, the feeling you're having. I'm just kind of
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: ignoring to some dram saying it's not real, or I'm
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: just saying I don't freaking care, right, and go figure
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: it out. Okay, that's one extreme. I just want to
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: model the other extreme because I just want to be clear.
• 15:55
  Speaker 4: I do think a lot of parents have over corrected,
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: and I would say it is I don't know equally,
• 16:02
  Speaker 4: I don't know about the exact equivalents, but it is
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: similarly unhelpful to kids. This math homework is so hard
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: and I know, and the things they give you is school,
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: like they don't know how busy you are. And look,
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna do this for you, or right, or maybe
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: the kid's like I don't know how to do it.
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: I don't know how to do it, and I'm like, okay,
• 16:24
  Speaker 4: step step, step step, I'll just let me just finish this.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: Part of you.
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: I'll make your flash cards, I'll do it, and now
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: you're okay, right, Okay. To me, there is that extreme.
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: I have never said those words myself. I have never
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: encouraged parents to say those things. I think that is
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: extremely unhelpful in that case. While the first thing is
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: outcome that I expect from you, without any acknowledgment about
• 16:48
  Speaker 4: what's going on for you or by the way, what's
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: probably blocking you, which is the overwhelm feeling, the other
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: extreme is complete focus on what's blocking you without any
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: not only pathway toward the outcome, but without simultaneously letting
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: my kid know I both see your feeling as real
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: and I also know as an adult the feeling isn't forever,
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: and you're going to be able to get past this
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: because you're a competent human being validating feelings over and
• 17:18
  Speaker 4: over without in some way absorbing your belief in that
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: person's competence or your hope that there's going to be
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: another version or another side. I do think can create
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: a tunnel vision into yourself and you become the feeling
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: instead of the feeling being a part of you next to.
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: The competent version of yourself.
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: That to me is the middle ground to be able
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: to say and make it super simple. This feels really
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: hard to you, and I believe you. I wouldn't say
• 17:45
  Speaker 4: that's the right feeling. The only reason I'd say that's
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: the right feeling to my kid is because they're having it,
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: like that's happening in their body, is what it is.
• 17:51
  Speaker 4: It's not right for me to drop my phone, but
• 17:53
  Speaker 4: if it happened, it's just reality.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: That's what I mean. That's right.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: So this is hard, and I know you can do
• 17:59
  Speaker 4: hard things. This is a really tricky puzzle and I'm
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: not gonna finish it for you because I know the
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: feeling you're gonna get when you finish it on your
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: own is going to be so amazing, and I will
• 18:07
  Speaker 4: not steal that from you. I know it's hard to
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: go to the store for the first time, and if
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: it feels so hard to walk eight blocks by yourself,
• 18:14
  Speaker 4: you know what I'll do. I will walk you one,
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: or you can walk one and you can come back.
• 18:18
  Speaker 4: You know why, I believe in your ability to make progress,
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: and I know the biggest thing getting in your way
• 18:22
  Speaker 4: is just not taking one step. And so I know
• 18:24
  Speaker 4: if you take a few steps over the course of
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: the next two weeks, you will be able to go
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: and do that and you're gonna feel so fricking proud
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: of yourself and I can't wait for that moment. That
• 18:33
  Speaker 4: is the approach that to me is in that middle.
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: Feelings matter, Feelings block our ability to get things done,
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: and we need someone to acknowledge those feelings as real
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: while simultaneously seeing a more competent version of ourself. Then
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: we can often access in the moment we're overwhelmed by
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: a feeling.
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: I don't know, does that make sense?
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: No, I think it does make sense, and I mean
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: I think part of it is is exactly this, Like,
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: it's very easy to chricature both side, you know, sort
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: of the extremes, and neither of the extremes is right,
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: and most people would not sort of push in either
• 19:08
  Speaker 1: of those push in either of those extremes, although one
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: can arrive at the extremes.
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: But here's the thing, one of the things that I
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: think that and we'll get to more parts of her book.
• 19:18
  Speaker 4: There's so much about it I liked enough I want
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: to talk about it right, And it really made me think.
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: One of the examples she has in her book, and
• 19:23
  Speaker 4: to me, this is where we fail to find the middle,
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: and most of us me too, by the way, we
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: have a hard time holding two things as true, right,
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: That's why that's like such a core part of what
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: I try to do. Two things can be true at
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: the same time. So she talks about this example where
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: empathy can lead us to make bad decisions, and she says,
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: for example, you're empathizing so much with the really poorly
• 19:45
  Speaker 4: performing employee that you fail to fire them. And the
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: truth is, the organization would be better, probably even that
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: person would be better to have a you know, fresh
• 19:54
  Speaker 4: start somewhere else.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: This to me stuck out so much. And I see
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: this all the time with parents.
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: They're like, oh, so you want me to empathize with
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: my kid that they can't join a birthday party. Like,
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: by the way, I'm still taking my kid to the
• 20:08
  Speaker 4: birthday party. I can empathize with my employee, and I
• 20:14
  Speaker 4: can fire that employee. Like, I don't know why this
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: happens all the time. So empathy with a poor performing
• 20:22
  Speaker 4: employee is not a dangerous thing. If that empathy gets
• 20:25
  Speaker 4: in your way of making a solid decision, I think
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: it's really unfair to blame empathy for that. To me,
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: that would be a failure of empathy and having boundaries
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: at the same time.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: I think this is where we get the slide from
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: you know, authoritative parenting to permissive parenting. Right, this is
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: where we get into the kind of like into I
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: want you to be happy or I want you to
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: not even happy, like I want you to be like
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: unbothered at all times, and that that somehow is is
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: the goal. And then you're not setting boundaries that's right,
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: And then you're you're letting the fear be more important
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: than they are, right. I mean, there are so many
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: experiences with our kids where we make them do something
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: they don't want to do because that's what the family
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: is doing. And you know, there's a question of to say,
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: you know, well we're going to go on this hike
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: because Dad and I have decided, like that's what we
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: are doing this morning. And you know, we do this
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: a lot with my kids, and they frequently say I
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: don't want to go on the hike. You know, I
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: just say, you know, I hear, I hear, I feel
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: but like we're going on the hike. And partly you
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: do that as a parent because you know later they'll say, oh,
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: that hike was was great, or because that's the obligation
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: that the family has in some other way. So I
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: think this is a hard This is a hard balance,
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: and I think she's kind of wanting, she wants to push.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: There's a there's some of the book that's about really
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: pushing in the direction of kind of very much away
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: from the idea of permit sickness and thinking about the
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: idea of acknowledging feelings as perhaps over over acknowledging them,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: which I think is kind of what you're getting at there.
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: I think that's exactly right.
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: Like our kids feelings are real and they shouldn't dictate
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: our decisions. I think those things are very true, that
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: our kids' feelings are worth noting, and they're not in charge, right,
• 22:19
  Speaker 4: Like I know, I always go to town on the
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: pilot analogy, like my passengers who are nervous and turbulence.
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: I think it's helpful for a pilot to say, I
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: hear everyone screaming, like you guys are all nervous, and
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: it's important to say like I'm the pilot and I'm
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: gonna land us, and like we're gonna be fine, We're
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: gonna get through this.
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: That's actually the pilot.
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: You want the pilot who's like everyone shut up back there.
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: You're making a big deal out of nothing. I actually
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: the irony isn't to me. I'm you know, man, I'm
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: like an absurdly practical person, like you're going to actually
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: do a better job getting the people to be quiet
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: by validating their feelings. Now if you then say, and
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: I'm nervous too, and I guess I don't know how
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: to find this plane, and maybe we should just make
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: an emergency landing, even.
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: Though it's just a little turbulence, you know.
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: Oh, like I would agree that would be a horrible pilot.
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: But again, those are two extremes. And so I think,
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: you know, the thing that we're touching on here, Emily
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: is something she talks a lot about too, And I
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: agree with her here that parents have forgotten to me
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: a language I use a lot of good inside is
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: parents need to.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: Embody their authority. There's a lot of reactions to this.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: Ooh ooh, that sounds a little you know, it settends
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: to me like the truth we are the authority. Parental
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: authority is a real thing. Now.
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: I think we've learned about authority to me in almost
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: every area, but the family one. Like, I think we
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: know the most effective CEOs aren't telling their employees that's
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: not a big deal.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: Just get it done.
• 23:45
  Speaker 4: I actually don't think anyone thinks that's effective there on
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: the sports field.
• 23:49
  Speaker 3: I think people have evolved a little bit too. Right.
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: You connect with your players, and you don't let them
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: make all the decisions.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: You can do both. And I do see, as she
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: was writing, how many parents, in the name of caring
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: about their kids' feelings, have lost touch with their own authority.
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: And I'm guessing you've seen that too, Yes.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: You can.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: You can see in her writing that that's right to
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: some extent, and that it has these longer term impacts
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: for how kids expect to be treated, how they expect
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: the world to engage with them, and for their competence.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: And I think.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: That's you know, it's not just a kind of then
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: kids grow up to be spoiled and disobedient. I think
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: it's much more actually about kids growing up to not
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: have the competence to solve their own problems, or to think,
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: if I have these big feelings, I can't like. The
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: way that you react to feelings is sort of just
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: by kind of giving up as opposed to seeing the
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: feelings and not only the feelings, but still trying to accomplish
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: the thing that you're trying to accomplish.
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: And your hiking example, to me is a perfect example
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: of all of this, right where my kid who's protesting
• 25:10
  Speaker 4: hiking because they're like, I really don't like it. And
• 25:12
  Speaker 4: let's say I believe them that maybe they really don't
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: like it, and you know, they're tired and it's a
• 25:17
  Speaker 4: hard hike, and I believe, you know, maybe I'm not
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: making my like two.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: Year old do some major hike. I'm like, I do
• 25:22
  Speaker 3: really believe my kid is capable. They just don't want
• 25:24
  Speaker 3: to do it.
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: By the time they're eighteen thirty, whatever it is, to
• 25:29
  Speaker 4: some degree they've learned. How many times have I felt annoyed?
• 25:35
  Speaker 4: How many times have I felt like this thing isn't
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: what I would want to do? How many times have
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: I said I don't even know if I could do this,
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: and then watched myself do it successfully and get through
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: it anyway. And the more we take our kids protest
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: and discomfort, and I actually think there's just lack of preference, like, Okay,
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: you don't want to do it, great, Like I do
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: a whole lot of things I don't want to do,
• 25:59
  Speaker 4: Like that's most of my friend life.
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: Like, literally, that's what it means to be a parent. Okay,
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: you're welcome. But the more.
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: Times my kids obviously not to some toxic level, but
• 26:08
  Speaker 4: are like, this is not my preference. I don't really
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: like this. I don't even know if I can do it.
• 26:12
  Speaker 4: And then I help them as a coach, not as
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: a pure dictator, watch themselves do it. Maybe they don't
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: love the hike, but they're like, wow, I actually did
• 26:20
  Speaker 4: hike these number of miles.
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: I think about when.
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: They're eighteen and thirty, and then they're gonna scan their
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: body when their boss asks them to do a project
• 26:28
  Speaker 4: that they've never done before. They're not responding based on
• 26:32
  Speaker 4: that project. They're responding based in their circuit of how
• 26:35
  Speaker 4: many times have I initially felt like, I don't know
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: if I can do this. I've never done this before,
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: I don't know if this is for me. And then
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: watch myself build confidence through the act of doing it anyway.
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: And if that number is basically zero, because they were
• 26:50
  Speaker 4: used to people saying fine, forget it.
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: Find one of us will stay home with you.
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: Find the whole family will change, just because we walk
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: on eggshells around you, and you have the biggest tantrums,
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: then why would I expect my thirty year old just
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: because there are a certain age to respond in any
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: different way. And that I do agree with her, has
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: happened in too many families.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: The other piece of this, which I resonate with quite
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: a lot, and I think other authors have written about
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: as well, is the physical autonomy piece of it, which
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: you know, it's one thing to kind of make you
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: go on the hike with me, and then there's the
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: kind of letting you problems, solve activities be physically away
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: from me in a place where I am not standing
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: over you. And this has changed quite a lot over time,
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: and it is I agree with her to a large extent,
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: the fault of parents, because people are afraid to let
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: their kids go do stuff out in the world, and
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: that is actually pretty important for kids to learn about
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: their own competence. She has some stories in the book,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: and there are other stories of it. You know, kids
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: who are like fourteen who have never like gone you know,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: down the block by themselves, and that's not a way
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: to develop someone who then at eighteen, is going to
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: be able to navigate their way around an adult world.
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: I'm so glad you're bringing this up.
• 28:53
  Speaker 4: I just recorded my workshop for parents of teens, and
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: this literal thing was a huge, huge focus because I mean,
• 29:01
  Speaker 4: I think this should be.
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: Happening before the teenage years. But really, the teenagers are just.
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: A bridge between being a kid and being adult like
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: they are, you know, identity explanation all the time, but
• 29:09
  Speaker 4: all those things too, But they're just a bridge and
• 29:12
  Speaker 4: one of the things as my kids, even when they
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: were young, but especially as they've gotten older, I keep
• 29:16
  Speaker 4: thinking about her what jobs do I have as a
• 29:19
  Speaker 4: parent with them that I want to hold on to
• 29:22
  Speaker 4: and what jobs do I actually want to work myself
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: out of so they can take those jobs on? And
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: in general and the patterning of my decisions, am I
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: working myself out of those jobs so they can figure
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: out how to take them on?
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: Or am I locking myself further into those jobs? Right?
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: And walking my kid to their friend's house a couple
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: blocks away as an example, I'm like, yeah, I don't, like,
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: I've got a lot of stuff to do, Like that's
• 29:41
  Speaker 4: actually not something I want. And I think this duality
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: and Jonathan Heighte says in his book kids need so
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: much less oversight in the physical world and actually so
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: much more oversight in the digital world, and somehow the
• 29:58
  Speaker 4: opposite run, We've got it wrong. So let's let's talk
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: about this a little bit, because I think there's a
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: lot of factors at play with letting my kid walk,
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: go to the playground, check themselves into a routine. This
• 30:13
  Speaker 4: actually happened my son recently. He's twelve, fully on his own,
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: did its worth of dawn disappointment. He figured out what
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: bus he needed from school. We're in Manhattan, right, so
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: he's like, okay, well it's not near my house, so
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: what buss wouldn't take there?
• 30:24
  Speaker 3: Okay, and then how do I walk there? And then
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: on my own, I'm gonna check in. I'm gonna wait.
• 30:28
  Speaker 4: It actually took a little while he realized I'm gonna
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: go and ask Okay, I did it, and then he
• 30:32
  Speaker 4: got himself home the whole thing right, And I really
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: mean this, Emily, he does well academically. This is the
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: proudest thing for me, like, and I think is the
• 30:41
  Speaker 4: thing that sets him up in life more than anything
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: that he tells.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: Me about his grades.
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: I'm like, yeah, that is gonna be fine, Like you
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: have to be ya yay grade smart to do okay
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: in life, but you have to be able to participate
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: in the grittiness and the problem solving part of real life.
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: And I talked to a lot of my friends right
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: who I hear a lot of things that I understand
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: become barriers, and so how do you approach this.
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: Let's jump into this because I think it matters so much.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: So I think you and I are very aligned in
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: terms of I also have a twelve year old and
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: she does a lot of stuff on her own. She
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: goes running by herself. That's like kind of one of
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: the main things. And I think what is scary for
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: parents about this is then your kid is out in
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: the world, they're on the bus, they're at the Orthodox,
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: at the Orthodon. It is probably not such a big deal,
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: but you know they're out running and there's cars or
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: other people. Yeah, what if they get lost and what
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: if they don't take the right bus? And yeah they
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: have a phone, but you know what if they drop
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: their phone? And it's easy for that to sort of
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: take over because we're afraid of things. What I will
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: tell people often is you are not thinking about the
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: other things that are happening. If you don't do this,
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: you know your focused on safety in this kind of
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: narrow idea of physical safety in this moment, but you
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: are not thinking about the fact that if you don't
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: give them those opportunities, there's all kinds of stuff that's
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: lost in the future, all kinds of other risks.
• 32:15
  Speaker 2: And my sense is trying.
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: To get people to take a wider view of the
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: idea of risks and benefits is pretty helpful in having
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: them recognize. So the phrase I use is no option
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: is completely safe, Like keeping your kid in their room
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: all the time is not a completely safe option. And yeah,
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: letting them go on the bus to the orthodontist is
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: also not a completely safe option. But it is the
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: thing that is developing all of these others. It has
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: all of these enormous benefits in the future, and I
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: think if we just got people to reframe that.
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: A little bit.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: Also, the other thing I will say is doing this
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: the first time is always the hardest, and that's the
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: most important thing for people to understand, Like, you won't
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: feel like this the second time, you won't feel like
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: this the third time. You know, the first time they
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: go out, you'll be watching the window, watching the window,
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: watching the window, the third time they go to the store.
• 33:08
  Speaker 2: You forgot that they went. You're like doing something else,
• 33:12
  Speaker 2: having a bath.
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: You know, got the baths. I don't know i'd be
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: talking about baths. Maybe I'm just sore, so I think
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: you're sore from your run.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: I'm sore from my run.
• 33:22
  Speaker 4: Okay, there's so many things I want to double click
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: on here, and okay, number one one of the things
• 33:26
  Speaker 4: I say a lot to parents, especially when our kids
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: are young.
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: Right like, my kid is hitting someone, but I don't
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: want to ruin the pla date.
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: I'm like, your number one job is to keep your
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: kids safe, and right now, safety means picking up your
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: kid and making them leave the play date. But when
• 33:36
  Speaker 4: I say my number one job is to keep my
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: kid safe, I think there's so many ways to think
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: about safe. When I think about safe, and when I
• 33:42
  Speaker 4: mean that I want my kid to feel safe in
• 33:44
  Speaker 4: the world, that is really different than always maximizing safety.
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: Ironically enough, and to me, I think there's something deep
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: going on. And I actually think this is related to COVID,
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: and I'll explain about other things too. I think to
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: some degree, we unconsciously think that being a good parent
• 34:05
  Speaker 4: is minimization of risk, Yes, totally, and I think we
• 34:10
  Speaker 4: had practiced during COVID times, but minimization of risk was
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: a life strategy in a way that it I don't
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: think for my lifetime had ever been. I mean, there
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: were periods right during COVID where it was like minimization
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: of risk was their sole focus for survival. And I think,
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: you know, it's amazing to me sometimes I'm like, remember COVID,
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: Like remember those at least a couple of months that
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: was really messed up, Like, oh my god, why is
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: no one talking?
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: No one talked about anything.
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: We were like wiping down our groceries. Did you lit
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: groceries been in the garage for three days? Yeah, it's
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: like a little I remember.
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: When someone was groceries sto stopping, wiping it down, but
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: not wearing a mask. And then I remember cloth masks
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: and I'm like, what what do we think those are doing?
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: But there was just it was scary and it was
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: minimization of risks, minimization of risk, minimization of risk. And
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: I actually think that's probably had a bigger effect on us.
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: And we think because that's that is that's not a
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: parenting strategy.
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: It's not a life strategy.
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: You cannot have a life that's worth living with a
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: minimization of risk approach.
• 35:11
  Speaker 3: And I think for.
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: Us to be able to say to ourselves, like you're saying,
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: it's opening the aperture, what is my job?
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: This is always my focus.
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: I couldn't side it is to be very long term greedy.
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: My job is to prepare my kid for life, because I.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: That's what it is.
• 35:27
  Speaker 4: That's what it is. And there's moments we all take
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: shortcuts because we need to, But overall, eighty percent of
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: the time, fifty percent time, whatever it is, that's that's
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: our goal. And why would my kid feel comfortable emailing
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: their professor in college to tell them about an issue
• 35:45
  Speaker 4: if when my kid is sick from school, I don't
• 35:48
  Speaker 4: say to them, no, I'm not emailing your teacher is
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: sweetye because I know, I actually know you can do it.
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: That's why I just don't want to do for things
• 35:56
  Speaker 4: for you that I know you could do for yourself.
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: Why would they not call me when they're twenty and
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: say can you call my my English professor? And then
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: I'm like, this is ridiculous, But it's actually just a
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: natural continuation of everything that happened, right.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: Totally, Yeah, I mean and at higher stakes, right, I mean,
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: this is.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: An opportunity this time when we have kids who were
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: in elementary, middle school, or you know, in high school,
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: it's an opportunity to make them do those things and
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: have them learn to do those things and have them
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: forget their homework when the.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: Stakes are low.
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: That is right, and that piece matters because learning is messy.
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: There's nothing anyone has ever learned that hasn't been messy.
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: And like when you learn how to tie your shoes,
• 36:39
  Speaker 3: like you don't do it the first time. It's messy.
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: When you learn how to bring your water bottle to
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: soccer practice, buy yourself without your parent, or put your
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: homework in your backpack, like you are going to forget,
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: And that's not a mistake, that's not lazy. That feeling
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: that happens when you forget and remember how thirsty you
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: were is not the only thing, but it's definitely part
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: of the road to remembering like it is. And if
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: we steal that and I love that word because I
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: think parents are like, I don't want to steal anything
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: from my kids.
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: So it's like a it's aggressive enough that it's like, whoa, you.
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: Know, but when we steal that moment from our kid,
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: we are stealing their sense of competence and they're learning,
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: We're stealing their.
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: Growth right.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: Totally.
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: And what I just want to prepare parents for, though,
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: is when you see the homework or when you see
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: the water bottle and you stop yourself.
• 37:32
  Speaker 3: I really mean this For me, it's excruciating.
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: It's like I actually feel like I need to get
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: in bed after, Like I'm like, wow, that was very hard.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: So it kind of actually.
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: Reminds me of what we're saying with kids, like to
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: say to yourself, this feels hard because it is hard.
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: I am feeling this right. It doesn't mean I need
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: to act and do anything different. I am competent. It
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: comes back to this of having this feeling and not
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: having it take over me exactly, and I think that's
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: a parallel process.
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: I think it also gets back to this question of
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: is your like, is our job to keep our kid happy?
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Like when my kid doesn't have their computer at.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: School and then like they can't do the assignment, or
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: their teacher yells at them, or they get a miss
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: or they don't have their water button, then they're thirsty.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: They're not happy, they're thirsty, they're annoyed, and they might
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: come home and be like, I'm I'm really unhappy that
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: I didn't have my computer and my day was terrible
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: because of that.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, that's okay.
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: Do you like me?
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: Do you get like a after those comfort do you
• 38:32
  Speaker 4: get like a sick joy? Because they're like, this is
• 38:34
  Speaker 4: going to be a good learning Yeah I shouldn't.
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: Maybe we'll cut that, we won't cut the part of.
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: That hour, you know.
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but why? But why?
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: I think, But I actually think it matters. Why is
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: a part of it's because it.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: Feels I need sick joys? Maybe well, but I think
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: there's a feeling there of I did a hard I
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: did a hard thing, and I fall through on something
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: that I found hard.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: It's not just similar or from how I.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: Feel like if I do like a like a heart,
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: like I could accomplish a hard thing at work, or
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: like I run fast. And so it's like so this
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: feeling of like I did this thing and I didn't
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: know that I could do it because honestly, my instinct
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: was to pick up the water bottle and take it
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: and drop it with the person at school because I'm like,
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: right there.
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: Like you have two locks from my kids school. I
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: could totally bring them the water bottle.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: I could have brought the computer, but I pushed through
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: and I didn't because I knew that that was the
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: right thing to do. And that's that's the same feeling
• 39:26
  Speaker 1: of accomplishment I want my kids to have when they
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: like push through the algebra.
• 39:30
  Speaker 4: Problem and the reason I have a sick joy and
• 39:32
  Speaker 4: it's not I just want to be clear, like.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: I'm not like, it's not like we like our kids
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: are unhappy. That's not.
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm not like laughing, I'm not pointing fingers. I'm
• 39:40
  Speaker 4: not like, you know, texting all my friends. You know
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: my son froud's the water bottle? How amazing is this?
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: None of that happens, Okay. But going back to this
• 39:46
  Speaker 4: long term focus, I think a lot about how we
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: misunderstand confidence in kids and like, right, raising kids who
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: can be adults and resilient, and it's the thing all
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: of us want. We all want that, but if we
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: don't understand it right, we definitely can't be on the pathway.
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: So to me, confidence, true confidence, like adult confidence, is
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: not built when we're successful at something because if you
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: actually think about someone who's only confident when they're successful
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: at something, I think we would actually say that person
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: is very fragile, extremely fragile. To me, confidence comes from
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: the moments where something didn't go your way. And honestly,
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: it's not fancy, like you just kind of figure out
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: how to survive them, Like you watch yourself get through
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: that from like it could be my mom always packs
• 40:29
  Speaker 4: me a bagel for lunch, and oh my goodness, this
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: is the one time she didn't. I was supposed to
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: make it myself and I didn't, and I'll have lunch today.
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: I don't know what's gonna happen, but I'm gonna figure
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: out something. And I really believe that is going to
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: build my internal sense of confidence. Just I am someone
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: who when things don't go my way, I have built
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: up an arsenal of experiences that tell me those moments
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: aren't fun and I am capable of getting through them.
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: I mean, I know when the workplace that is the
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: only thing that helps people. It's just when something goes hard,
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: I can get through it. There's nothing fancier than that
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: you don't know how to get through it, but knowing
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: that you've had the experience of getting through bumps is
• 41:08
  Speaker 4: like the ultimate flex in life. And so I don't
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: know who said this, maybe you did, but don't prepare
• 41:13
  Speaker 4: the road for your child.
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: Prepare your child for the road.
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: And not say that. But that's a good thing.
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: It's a good one, right, I don't know.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: I like that.
• 41:18
  Speaker 4: I didn't say that either, But I think that kind
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: of sick joy comes from like, I have a decision.
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: I can prepare the road or I can prepare my kid.
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: And yes, they're gonna hit that bump because I didn't
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: prepare the road, but I don't want the job of
• 41:34
  Speaker 4: road smoother over forever slash. That road doesn't exist and
• 41:40
  Speaker 4: is such a disservice to my child's internal capability. And
• 41:45
  Speaker 4: so that sick joy is like, Wow, this is one
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: of those bumps today that I know is survivable.
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: It's okay if they're thirsty, it's okay.
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: If they're a little cold, it's okay if in eighth grade,
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: tenth grade, whatever, they forget their homework gets what's okay
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: in college too, And them watching themselves just serve is
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: going to help them in a kind of exponential way
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: going forward.
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: And and I love that.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: For them, So I want to ask you a question.
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: Oh so we talked a lot about what we like,
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: what we like about those book and the things that
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: it made us think.
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: About, which is why I hope we do in this conversation.
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: But you're a therapist, and this title of this book
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: is bad therapy, so there's got to be stuff that
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: you didn't agree with.
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: A hundred percent.
• 42:25
  Speaker 4: I mean, look, to me, there just really wasn't enough nuance,
• 42:29
  Speaker 4: Like there really wasn't enough nuance, and it felt, it
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: felt a little fear mongerie. It felt a little kind
• 42:35
  Speaker 4: of focused on people who kind of want to hear
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: this narrative anyway, And then they're the people most are like, yeah,
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: we knew it.
• 42:41
  Speaker 5: You know.
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: There are kids who are.
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: Really struggling so many and I think as much as
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: we work on things, there are parents who see their
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: kids struggling and are like, I don't really I don't
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: really know how to help my kid. And to me,
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: when a parent sees their kids strung and they simultaneously
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: think I actually don't know what to help my kid
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: get out of this, to me, it's like a sign
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: of strength and everything that's right in a family when
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: they just say who are the teammates I can bring
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: on to help, And I would hate I would hate
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: to think that this would stop people from doing that. Now,
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: the thing that I hope happened simultaneously to that is
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: and it's why I one hundred percent believe in child therapy,
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: big believer. And the reason I stopped myself doing child
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: therapy and decided to focus so much on parents was
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: kind of like practical math. I was like, wait, this
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: person's in my office like maximum forty five minutes one
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: hour a week. They're in their family home so much
• 43:49
  Speaker 4: more than that. Plus I'm not gonna have the influence
• 43:52
  Speaker 4: on them.
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: I can't. Then their caregivers are.
• 43:54
  Speaker 4: So if I can help the caregivers feel a little sturdier,
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: help them understand kid in a different way, help them
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: see the situation differently, help them understand this balance of
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: seeing their kids' experiences real and by the way, still
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: being a parntal authority with boundaries from a place of
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: loving and protecting my kid and knowing they can be competent.
• 44:14
  Speaker 4: I feel like that that could be like a lot
• 44:17
  Speaker 4: of bang for my buck. And so I think the
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: messaging is like, yes, if our kids need that space
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: that is so important, and of course do diligence on
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: the providers, like I know all parents do parents care simultaneously.
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: We can't outsource that completely. And to me, again, like
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: the biggest flex as a parent is saying, what's going
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: on with my kid is definitely not my fault. I
• 44:42
  Speaker 4: am the CEO, like I am the coach of this team,
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: and so I can get my player, I can get
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: that junior employee help. If I level up my skills
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: even just a little, that could have more impact on
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: my kid. And by the way, I'm just gonna feel
• 44:59
  Speaker 4: better myself. Also, like what an amazing opportunity that is.
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: And so I think that's how I see it.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's funny how strong I think the parallels. I mean,
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: I did write a book called The Family Firm, But
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: I think some of this the parallels to how you
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: manage at your job, you know, the kind of some
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: of how I try to help people in my on
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: my teams succeed better or try to like have coaching
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: myself so I do a better job as a leader,
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: and so I figure out how to navigate whatever I'm
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: doing better.
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: And sometimes you will say, you know what.
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: This person could use some coaching from outside, and I'm
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: going to try to facilitate that because like it's not
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: like what I'm able to do is is not enough.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: And I think that that happens in the workplace, and
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: you wouldn't think of it as you wouldn't think of.
• 45:45
  Speaker 3: It as failure in the workplace. That's exactly right.
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: And I think that like, yes, our kids can need help,
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: and if the family system, which is kind of like
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: the work culture, doesn't change at all, and I'm expecting
• 45:56
  Speaker 4: things to get better because my junior employee is.
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: Getting help, that map that just doesn't even make sense.
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: And so I think parents can feel so much shame,
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: Like it's so easy to be like, so you're saying
• 46:07
  Speaker 4: it's my fault. No, it's so interesting, And I don't
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: know if it's just American we go to fault so fast,
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: so it's my kid's fault. I don't, like, I don't
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: know why it has to be anyone's fault, Like I
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: don't know what our obsession with fault is.
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: You know, I don't know.
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: I know this story, but I'll never forget. A while ago,
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: something happened my husband got a little annoyed at my
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: son and kind of, and my son was like, it's
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: not my fault. And my husband's like, so it's my fault,
• 46:29
  Speaker 4: And my son said to him, why does it have
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: to be anyone's fault. Sometimes bad things happen and it's
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: no one's fault. And we both looked at each other.
• 46:35
  Speaker 5: We're like, damn, we just got like played by Like,
• 46:39
  Speaker 5: but it's actually a life philosophy, Like for anyone listening
• 46:42
  Speaker 5: right now, who's like, my kid's struggling, and I'm probably
• 46:45
  Speaker 5: also struggling because I'm not really sure even what's really
• 46:48
  Speaker 5: driving this or what they need.
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: Okay, so let's just say that's happening in a ton
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: of homes. What if I said to myself, like, this
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: is not my fault, this is not my kid's fault.
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: I'm not a bad person, my kid's not a bad kid.
• 47:01
  Speaker 3: There's no fault, there's no internal badness, there is struggle.
• 47:07
  Speaker 3: If I just had that we are struggling, what would
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: I do? And I think our options feel a lot
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: less heavy.
• 47:16
  Speaker 4: Oh well, maybe maybe I can get help, just because
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: this is what I always say. I don't want to
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: put my kid's change in my kid's hand, only like
• 47:24
  Speaker 4: I have faith in myself more than I have faith
• 47:26
  Speaker 4: in my toddler or my teen. Like I feel like
• 47:28
  Speaker 4: if I can have more clarity and I can level
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: up and maybe my kid too, that's like an additional Wow.
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: How empowering is that? That?
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: To me is such an empowering approach. And so look,
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: I think you and I we see things so similarly,
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: and I always loved when we see things differently with
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: such amazing discourse about it.
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: And I think this book got us both thinking.
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: I think I got a lot of people thinking, and
• 47:50
  Speaker 4: I hope it just gets people thinking, like anything new
• 47:53
  Speaker 4: toward feeling more empowered, you know, to make the changes
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: you want to make.
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, And I think there are there are no
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: book that one is going to read, not our books,
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: not this book, not any book is going to be
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: every point is going to feel like I want to
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: operate my life like this book is, And that shouldn't
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: really be the point of this. I think almost all
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: of these books about how you operate as a parent,
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: about how we operate as parents' society, we should read
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: and think about them as you know, what do I
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: want to take from this? And there were some things
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: that I really took from this that I hope other
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: people will take and other pieces which you know, for me,
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: were not as resident and I maybe wouldn't take from it.
• 48:30
  Speaker 2: But you know, that's why I have conversations and I think.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: That I think to get back like she has really
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: hit on something which a number of people have hit
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: on the last year or so in various books, which
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: is this idea that kids are kids.
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: Are having a hard time, and that it's not you know, not.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: Just twelve year olds and fifteen year olds, it's eighteen
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: year olds and twenty three year olds, and that there's
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: something going on where we need to help kids and
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: young adults develop for of a set of confidence.
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: For me, that's like the core. I think that's the
• 49:03
  Speaker 3: core too.
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: Thanks to Airbnb, remember your home could be worth more
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: than you think.
• 49:14
  Speaker 3: Find out more at airbnb dot com, slash host.
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: And thanks to Goer Animals, the original mix and match
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: clothing brand for babies and toddlers. Check them out at
• 49:23
  Speaker 4: Walmart dot com. Thank you for listening. To share a
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: story or ask me a question, go to good Inside
• 49:29
  Speaker 4: dot com, slash podcast, or you could write me at
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: podcast at good inside dot com. Parenting is the hardest
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: and most important job in the world, and you deserve
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: resources and support so you feel empowered and confident for
• 49:46
  Speaker 4: this very important job you hold. I'm so excited to
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: share Good Inside membership. It's the first platform that brings
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: together content and experts you trust with a global community
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: of like valued parents. It's game changing and built for
• 50:02
  Speaker 4: a busy parent who wants to make the most out
• 50:05
  Speaker 4: of the few minutes they have. Good Inside with Doctor
• 50:08
  Speaker 4: Becky is produced by Jesse Baker and Eric Newsom at
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: Magnificent Noise. Our production staff includes Sabrina Farhee, Julia nat
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: and Kristin Muller. I would also like to thank Erica Velski,
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: Mary Panico, Brook Zant and the rest of the Good
• 50:25
  Speaker 4: Inside team.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: And one last thing before I let you go.
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: Let's end by placing our hands on our hearts and
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: reminding ourselves. Even as I struggle, and even as I
• 50:37
  Speaker 4: have a hard time on the outside, I remain good Inside.