Latest / Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves / EP180: Gemma Howell - Turning Pain, ADHD and Elite Judo Into a Life of Service and Strength

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EP180: Gemma Howell - Turning Pain, ADHD and Elite Judo Into a Life of Service and Strength · Career Clarity with Athletes: A 2ndwind Podcast with Ryan Gonsalves

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_04: something that I miss from being an athlete is like I remember just before the Commonwealth and there would have been a few times like you get that feeling where you know you're really fit, you believe in yourself and you've got that kind of buzz and and it's sad I will never get that again.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_04: Like I am never going to feel as fit as I did.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_04: I'm never going to be as strong.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_04: So no matter what I do in the gym, and hopefully that will wear off.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_04: But now if I do anything I can't help compare it to when I was training full time and I was at the strongest and fittest in my life and it's and it's kind of sad.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: Hi I'm Ryan Gonsalv and welcome to the Second Wind Academy podcast.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: A show all about career transition through the lens of elite athletes.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_00: Each week I invite a guest to the show who shares their unique sporting story.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_00: Please join me to delve into the thoughts and actions of athletes through a series of conversations.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: Don't worry there's plenty to learn from those of you that aren't particularly sporty.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Elite athletes are still people athletes.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: Let's be inspired by the stories of others.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Gemma welcome to the show thanks for joining me today.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_04: Hello thank you for having me.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_01: Great well I'm looking forward to our conversation mainly because um of moving I'm really interested in that moving to teaching and how that sort of came about but also how you have sort of remained attached to the sport and you know so many athletes that I meet we we lose that connection.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I think it's wonderful at least to go through how that has remained for you.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_01: That would be great.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah no very uh happy to talk about that literally did come from school my after school judo club um so kind of buzzing from that because all the kids are really excited and wanting to carry on fighting so I'm like great that's what I want let's keep that yes yeah that is well and well let's keep that energy flowing as well for for this conversation as essentially look back in I suppose in your career and how you've managed to find a bit of clarity or find clarity in your in your career path right now.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: So for those listening and watching who don't know you, Gemma, please give us give us that quick intro.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_04: Who are you and what you're up to nowadays so Gemma Howell math teacher slash I have one day a week of judo my favourite day um I drop judo background in a nutshell and so I two time Olympian went to London and Tokyo Olympics the COVID one European champion that was the highlight probably of my life and I'm not sure I'll ever speak that feeling silver at the Commonwealth Games for 25 years retired two years ago I think my body kind of told me it's had enough it's 12 operations and I was like okay maybe it's time to listen to it I would like to be able to walk in 10 years time.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_04: Now math teacher my whole family are teachers so I feel like I it's all I've ever known and I've wanted to be a teacher for as long as I can remember I also love stationary that helps um you love stationary compelling of all of the things that you've been saying it's quite isn't it interesting the most remarkable bit is she loves stationary?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_04: Brand new book when it's untouched and the pages are increased.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_01: Oh it's beautiful um and yeah I love maths sounds super nerdy but I really enjoy it and not at all that that's great you've you've you've dropped so many different nuggets along the way there uh from teaching judo and obviously the achievements that you've had um I'm gonna put the station a bit aside for the moment but talk a bit about maths you say you love maths is that something that you felt all through your life yeah I think so um my dad's a maths teacher so that helped a lot when it came to revision I just threw a paper and give it to him and he could tell me how I did.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_04: But I did maths a year early at my school we did it um in year 10.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_04: So I think it was always like obviously alongside sport I I'm very passionate about sport and love PE and that was probably like my strongest subject and I just love puzzles and problem solving and and it's trying to get that across to the students which is sometimes a challenge.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_04: I love it when they get a set and it's like cool to be clever and they're competing and bouncing off each other and that to me is like a a a fantastic lesson.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_04: I really enjoy that.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah and so whilst you were competing in judo was teaching always sort of this path that you had um going on?
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah I think so I think I had one other dream where I um was to own a coffee shop and have like muffin door handles.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_04: No idea why that's as far as the dream went never went past that um but yeah I think I always wanted to be a teacher um and then kind of put it on pause I did four years where I after school just did training um at the National Centre then I did sport and exercise science at BAF uni which has nothing to do with uh well it's got some maths on there biomechanics but not really like mathsy but I really enjoyed that and like that kind of went alongside training full time that was really really hard doing the whole full-time judo full-time um uh full-time uni thing then uh I bet it was it it was it was really good place I absolutely felt I feel really lucky I've got to do it there and it was a really nice city and everything around it even the lecturers are really supportive and and helping me catch up although um I do have a side note so I remember because I did a trip to China and somewhere else I missed a few weeks of uni.
• 5:49
  SPEAKER_04: So then I've gone back into my lecture and at the time we shared it with like pharmacists and loads of other lectures so we were in a mass theatre and I'm watching like cars on the screen thinking I've clearly missed like a really big jump in the three weeks I've been away but it's fine like I often don't understand what's going on in the lectures so I sat through it all and then I came out and I saw my course turning up and I was like oh now isn't my lecture starting um so I just sat through a whole mechanics lecture and didn't even realise um so yeah that kind of sums up my uni life um then it sounds like you do sounds like you're doing only what's in front of you um rather than thinking too far ahead at that instance uh yeah definitely like one day at fine I I spent most of my uni days injured I think on crutches or having a knee operations that I think I couldn't have passed my uni if I wasn't broken so much.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_04: So there's there's a silver lining to everything.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes good situation of both well that that well actually before before I jump into that because that's an interesting perspective on on being injured I'm um just thinking back about judo and so how did art sport in general you know you come from a family of teachers how important was sport for you as you were growing up I think I had I was really lucky I had really committed parents so they did the whole take me to every after school club whatever they could do I tried everything.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_04: I mean my sister was probably the one that was talented at everything I just tried hard at everything and and stuck up stuck at one um and what sports were you doing then as you as you grew up so I did try gymnastics gosh I was rubbish at that but I think gymnastics like sets you up for loads of different sports.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_04: That was that was my sister's one.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_04: Obviously judo I remember I was doing swimming but it came to the point where it was I needed to do an extra night if I progressed at judo and that would have taken up swimming so it was a I had to eventually I had to choose um because I think early on doing loads of different sports really helped just make you an all-round uh sports person I guess um but then judo kind of then started to take over my life more and more and I realised that was where m my loyalties lied and that's what I wanted to do.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_04: And mostly how old were you when you had those decisions were being made uh so I started at eight and and then it was probably I probably knew by secondary school that I loved judo so I guess it's in primary when it it was I think swimming was on a Saturday and judo competitions meant I was away all the time so I wasn't going to be able to like progress with that.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_04: But like at school I'd do the hockey I'd do netball I'd do anything that was available I'd I'd try it.
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_04: I I remember I had to do a athletics I think I did 800 or 1500 in a cast because I'd broken my wrist doing judo but I could still run so yeah I'd just I'd just try everything.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah so it was really that early teens where you started to think hold on I've got a these other sports are going to have to stop at some point now and put more effort into judo or more time into judo and and so what was what were the early what were those early years like for you?
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: How did you know you were good at judo?
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_04: Like there was something here I guess like when you're younger you aim every year for like the national championships so then you'd always just aim for the next one and then maybe I won one one year and then I won it again the next year and then I think obviously the more times that happens like people start to notice.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_04: I think someone actually asked me that question recently and I was like I'm not sure but I remember as a junior I missed my last year through injury but my second to last year of juniors I won the june uh junior European championships bronze I got bronze at the junior world championships and then I remember like being really tired by this point and just wanting being really really happy with how it's gone and just wanting to kind of finish the year and I had to do the under 23 European championships as well.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_04: And I remember going out to the bronze fight thinking I really need a we could do with not fighting right now.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_04: And my coach just shouting at me Kate Howie and then I was like okay need to win this gonna get in trouble if I um if I don't so obviously afterwards I was super happy that I'd done that because that was like at the next age group and I was very grateful for for being shouted at and told to to get on with the fight.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_04: But then I yeah I guess just eventually I started to like have confidence.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_04: I remember actually a cadet so before that um I think age fans yeah I think I think it was cadets I won a DVD player actually I won the a competition in Ukraine and at the start I remember I think I'd text my parents the day before or something saying I'm really sorry I'm gonna lose because I saw all these really big scary people that I was going to fight um and never ever thought oh I was gonna win it so then it was kind of like okay I'm actually one of these scary people working around.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah and that that competition actually I think my parents and um their friends they met White Snape on the plane so they have way more fun on these competition trips than I did I think and then they end up getting VIP tickets to like snake white snake concert and I mean they probably didn't even know who they were but yeah they definitely enjoy the I get nervous and have to try and fight hard and they have really nice times and nice times enjoying yeah enjoying the atmosphere meeting people in the crowd um literally so the so this you know I guess I'm joking you think they'd put you into sport so that they could get VIP tickets and visit nice cities.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_04: I guess looking back now I think it seems that way literally like they they go on holidays they I couldn't ask for some more supportive family I mean my auntie and uncle missed their flight one time to watch me in Germany um so then they ended up travelling through the night and I think it was the worst competition I ever had in my life.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_04: I was on the mat for less than 10 seconds and all I could say was I'm sorry like the week after I think or two weeks later I got a Paris Grand Slam medal and that was probably one of the best results of my life but that just sums up judo that's how it can go but I mean I'm very grateful for them.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_04: I remember crying one time because my mum would come out and I'd lost and I just felt so guilty because it's like it was an extra pressure and I didn't want to let them down.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_04: And she said to me and it kind of stuck with me like she'd rather be there when I lost because that's when she wants to be there to support me than when I win.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_04: Obviously they love it when I win and I love having them there.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_04: But that kind of stuck with me because and I'm sure lots of other people like feel that pressure and you don't want to let people down so it was really nice that I know they'd support me whether I won or lost or anything.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: That's wonderful.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: That that really is that sounds that sounds like the kind of support that you need in your corner especially doing you know as you as you're travelling around overseas very young and and fighting.
• 12:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah yeah so when you when you think of those sort of times that you know the the 16 17 winning those tournaments what was the what dream did you have about where judo could take you so I remember standing in a school assembly this was at secondary school and there was I don't know why there was a few of us as judo and we were still at the front and we got asked like what's your dream and I said to win the Olympic gold medal and people next to me like didn't say that and I remember thinking but isn't that everybody's dream like isn't isn't that the dream like why aren't you saying the same as me like obviously I never achieved that and another school assembly actually I remember someone saying aim for the aim for the moon and if you miss you're amongst the stars and it's the cheesiest thing ever and I completely like think that but that's genuinely how I feel like I aimed for the Olympic gold medal.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_04: I never got that Olympic gold medal but I'm still proud of what I have achieved and so it's okay to say yeah that was what I aimed for but I didn't reach it but along the way I've I think judo has literally given me the best life I could have asked for like it's experiences I never would have had if it wasn't for doing judo.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Right and which is wonderful and and as you say you if you're aiming for the top shoot for the moon hit the stars but you're yet you're dreaming big aren't you and you and that dream it sounds like it fuels you it keeps it kept you going yeah definitely um I mean obviously I had some 12 operations wasn't easy.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_04: Nobody's career is easy.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_04: I do think to be a teacher as well you've got to be a little bit crazy because I feel like it it's hard you put yourself through a very very hard times and obviously 12 operations.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_04: I remember after my neck operation lying because I think because obviously neck is high risk that well they look after you and there was like tubes coming out of me everywhere and I'm lying one of the bed thinking judo isn't worth this what am I doing to myself and then I think my best results have come since then so I'm lying there thinking I'm at rock bottom like it it can't what what am I doing?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_04: And then somehow only by taking it one day at a time because obviously at that point I didn't see a future in judo I couldn't it was like too hard and too sad and too far away but somehow I kept moving and then again I'm back on the mat and and winning fights.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah so interesting thing there about you know what you're talking about you you've mentioned these 12 operations which to me means you've clearly had more injuries than than operations right um but unless any injury he had on operation but I'm assuming you've had more injuries do you know you said you missed out on the first the last year of the under 18s last year of been juniors you were under under 20s I think it was under 20s last year of under 20s you you missed it through injury was that was that your when was the first big injury that that you had and how did you sort of feel going into that injury?
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah that was definitely um probably the first I mean I'd tweaked my knee a bit and missed a training camp before then but I genuinely think when you're younger you feel invincible like I I'd done my knee um so that was at a training camp and my knee had popped and I I I remember in Judo you'd have to like say I quit the fight and we were just in a training camp and I was tapping the mat as if to say stop now please can the pain go away but obviously the pain wasn't going to go away um and I remember saying to the surgeon I want to fight anyway so obviously he was saying the way up the right thing to do would be to have the operation that's ACLs and nine month operation and recovery and that would have meant missing my junior Europeans and worlds which I did and at the time that was the biggest like the most important thing that was my life like genuinely like it sounds unhealthy is unhealthy that was my life um and I said to him I'm gonna fight it anyway and he said like if if you were my daughter I would tell you not to fight and I knew how serious he was and what he and everyone said to me at the time it's about the bigger picture and and I couldn't see that there and then so then my first I when I first got a bronze medal at the senior European championships like I can't describe what that meant because ever since missing out on my last Europeans and everyone said it's about the bigger picture, I thought, well unless I get something at the seniors I've I've missed that bigger picture and yes everyone said it was the bigger picture but maybe that was my only chance so it was almost like relief getting a senior European medal because I was like okay I get it now I see that I managed to get the bigger picture kind of thing.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah Judo is the biggest highs and the big sport I think is the biggest highs and the biggest lows.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yes yeah and just there you describe a huge low not making the European thinking this was it and then the big high of actually then coming back out and achieving it.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason I'm I'm interested then is it's kind of in that I'm sort of picking apart this that mindset for you going into it and then coming out it feels like you that bounce that propelled you to sort of to achieve so that it wasn't in wasted effort.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah I never saw it like that before and that that's very true.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_04: And I think uh yeah I just I I don't know if it's the ADHD and the tunnel vision but like I had that goal and I was going to do whatever it takes to have that goal and I mean I it I cried so many times like friends and family got me through it and ice cream um I remember my coach after one of the the NRI results just took me we went to Hargo Dad's cafe because there's nothing else you can do um what's your flavour?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_04: What's your preferred chocolatey or I don't know yeah anything anything I like I like more than one never one scoop.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_04: I'm with you on that as well don't worry and and just taking it a day at a time and I think I remember going away like team will go away for competitions and training camps and I'd be stuck at the gym and I genuinely sometimes would just cry my way for a weight session.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_04: Because it was just it was it was sad like I wanted to be with the team and and that's where just like a little call from the from a coach checking in like Jamie would call to say how's it going and just make me still feel like part of that team and it's such a little thing that made such a big difference to be like oh I haven't been forgotten and left in the gym by myself to Yeah.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah fascinating I I wouldn't have I wouldn't have thought that judo a judoka you you would you would have this sense of team.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_04: No that's that's true and I literally I said it uh when I was coaching today 'cause I was like, yeah it it's an individual sport but if I haven't got training partners I'm not gonna get any better.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um So actually, it it's a massive team sport to me.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, they actually have a teams event in the Olympics now, which is awesome, and that's new.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um but we can't get anywhere without our team and and in the gym.
• 20:13
  SPEAKER_04: I remember so Junior, I think it was one where we did really well, the the junior Europeans and worlds, and we took a really small team.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_04: And I know there was obviously like a lot of uh not happy people at the time because they were like, why are you only taking this many people?
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_04: And and the coach said, But it's almost like who you surround yourself with like lifts you up, and they'd rather have a small, really strong team, because then you're seeing them winning and it's inspiring you and it's that kind of like bouncing off each other, and actually that's kind of what happened.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_04: We got loads of medal over those, loads of medals over those two competitions, and it's almost like I saw that person get a medal, so I can do it, and it just lifts you up together, I think.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_04: And there's a massive team spirit in judo, I think.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, interesting.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: And I haven't really thought of it in that way.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Although I guess judokers who I'm who I meet and and speak with do talk very fondly about those around them.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: So um, yeah, I guess there is that that team element.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, so now for you then, coming up injuries, being part of this team driving forward, what what were you doing from an academic or how how were you funding yourself?
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: What what were you doing from the funding perspective and that sort of education path?
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_04: So I was definitely, I took um like four years out of education before I was a student.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_04: Um obviously at uni I had like the student loan.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I was on UK Sport National Lottery grant.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um so basically like everyone playing the lottery, so keep playing the lottery, supporting the athletes.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_04: And I mean, yeah, got me through.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_04: So if you hit a certain criteria of like results, then you get this much money.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_04: So there were times when I I didn't hit and it was struggl, struggling.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um about that.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it's it's like it's a never rich yeah, a year you have it, a year you don't.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose um unless less about the structure and things like that, but more what did you then do when and I'm guessing it was because of an injury because you must have been out, so you couldn't achieve those highs.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_01: So you were you you were figuring things out yourself.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_01: What did you do then?
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I mean, it's really hard to get a job.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_04: I remember I tried to apply for a job at Subway and they were like, Can you work this weekend?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, I'm away this weekend.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_04: What about the one after?
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_04: I'm away that one.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_04: What about the one after?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_04: I'm away that one.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_04: And they were like, We'll get back to you.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, Oh, this isn't gonna be possible.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um, so yeah, like towards the end, actually a few of us did work in a bar like opposite, um, opposite the judo centre.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_04: But mostly um like my mum's helped me, my dad's helped me, and you just kind of do what you've got to do.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I I was lucky the you the funding did help me and covered everything.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um and you don't really have time for lez of holidays then anyway.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_04: Like you you're giving away all these places and competing it.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, literally.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: But it's funny, isn't it?
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_01: As an athlete, you're competing, like you're luckily around globally, so nathly and and globally, but you don't necessarily feel like you're on a holiday.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_04: Oh no, definitely not.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_04: So like we'd sometimes everyone's thinking, oh, you've seen all these places.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_04: And genuinely, I'd feel for I've I've done Rome, I don't need to go to Rome.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_04: And then I watched Emily and Paris go to Rome and I was like, oh my gosh, Rome is so pretty.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_04: I need to go to Rome.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_04: I haven't actually seen Rome.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_04: But sometimes when we go further afield, that's when it's set up.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_04: Because if we go to Japan for a couple of weeks, you've got the weekend off, so you can go exploring.
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_04: And I absolutely love Japan.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_04: Obviously, it helps judos from Japan.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and like we've done rock sliding and Samoa.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_04: We've we've some when you're far away and you need to kind of have some jet lag days, that's when it's really good.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_04: And like, for example, our flight got cancelled coming back from Mexico, so somehow we got put up in a five-star hotel.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, that's like that's the rare occasion, and that was incredible.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_04: Because often you're you're in the we went to Orenburg and there was bugs all over in Russia, there was bugs all over like m our clothes when we're hanging up our clothes, and um we we've kind of experienced both ends of this.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_04: We've slept on judo mats, like you literally go from one extreme to the next.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I guess that it yeah, I suppose that that is the trouble.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_01: It it feels or it looks like the glit and glamour from an external perspective at times, but you know, for you you've had to live you've you know, you've travelled through the good, the good and and the bad.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_01: You say you say you took off four years from your studies.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um, does that mean you started uni and then stopped, or was it uh, I'm just gonna wait?
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_04: It was I'm gonna live the dream for four years.
• 24:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um what was that what go on, what was that dream?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: What what what did what was that dream at least supposed to be?
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_04: I guess I mean I say live live the dream, like live the dream with whatever you call them quotations, because it and it it is, and I was really, really lucky that I was able to do that.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_04: But I mean, dieted, I haven't mentioned the dieting part of the weight category sport.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um I was 57 kilos like the cycle before London until politics and I moved up and we won't go into that.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but I was 57 kilos and I didn't get to eat very much for 57 kilos.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_04: And it so yes, I'm not doing anything else and I'm just doing sport.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_04: It really wasn't the dream.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_04: Like I dreamt of stock and judo lots of times during that.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I'd literally because uh not eating isn't fun.
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_04: Like food makes me happy and and I couldn't have it very much.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_04: I remember like I'd live off basically porridge and fruit for like two weeks before competition sometimes.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um and then sweating off, I'm dramatic anyway.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_04: So sweating off a few kilos, just not fun.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_04: Just now, like if I have to diet and I don't or don't if I ever try and like lose weight or something without the motivation of those scales, it's just not possible.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_04: Like, yeah.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I guess we do need a motivation for these things.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm interested, you know, you talk about so you were able to go full-time, you were moving in to live this this dream.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_01: That was sort of the idea, right?
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_01: And but for you then, it was because of the weight category, just managing that diet was probably one of the big challenges.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: Or managing the weight class, sorry.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, because I think as well, if you don't make it very well, like I remember, so I was 57s, and the category above me was 63 kilograms.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_04: So I competed at the weekend at 57 kilograms, and I'd got on the scales like I don't know if it was one or two days later, and I was 63 kilograms, because you just yo-yo, so the harder you cut, the more it comes back on.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um so then it just got worse, and it was just really hard.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_04: It's not like sports where you don't compete for like four months at a time.
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_04: Like Judo is sometimes competing like a few times a month.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_04: So you're having to keep making that weight.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_04: Um and it was it was miserable.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_04: Like, so obviously on top of my training and then doing an extra run every morning.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_04: Like now, if I go for a run, that's my exercise for like three days.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_04: But like back then, that was just what I'd do before breakfast.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_04: Then I've got a full day of training.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_04: So it was like, yeah, it uh it's it's hard and it can be so I say the whole team thing, but that can be quite a lonely place.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_04: Like you've obviously got to deal with that weight loss by yourself.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um and and I'd just look through food magazines at all the food that I couldn't have and torture myself and just did what you gotta do to go through it.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, that that's not okay.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not uh in a a trained position to say it, but it it doesn't sound like a healthy relationship with with food and weight in order to do a sport that you that you're in love with.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_04: Uh no, and I mean I don't want to speak bad of judo.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_04: I genuinely think it's the best sport in the world, and I'd tell anyone to get into it, but it's that's not healthy.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't have a relationship with food, and I do think it affects people.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_04: It like we don't kind of like say it's an eating disorder because it's just a given.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_04: It's like it's what you do.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_04: But and I mean, that wasn't healthy, and I don't recommend that at all.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_04: Like I moved up and actually got my best results in both categories higher.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_04: So that like it was just you kind of hang on till the end of a cycle, because obviously judo always works in cycles.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um and obviously I got moved up before I think I I should have got moved up.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but yeah, I don't by any means recommend that.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_04: But sometimes you do find yourselves in situations like that.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_04: And I do think sports and athletes do have mental health things with their diet.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_04: Like I genuinely thought if I wasn't 57 kilograms, I was fat, which is a stupid thing to say, because I was still super skinny at 63 kilograms, but because the weight told me that's what I should be, my head thought that's what I should be.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_04: And if I wasn't that, that's not okay.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_04: And so it takes and just an obsession with weighing.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_04: Like I can go like weeks now without weighing myself, but back then I'd weigh myself morning night every single day.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_04: Like I think it's almost because I didn't want to, if I was putting weight on, I'd rather it went on gradually than suddenly I got on and it got really heavy, and that would scare me too much.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_04: So I'd rather watch it daily, go up and touch myself that way.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_04: But it's not okay to be thinking that, and I'd I'd secretly, oh my gosh, yes, I forgot I did this.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_04: So I mean, I had a, I'm on my second Labrador now.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_04: I had uh a fat fatter one before.
• 29:49
  SPEAKER_04: She was the one with they've got the jeans and it's not their fault.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_04: Um but we'd go to my mum's house, and I know that she'd keep like the tapes and stuff in a bread tin.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_04: So I'd go in the kitchen and Roxy was eating the cat food, and I'm trying to sneakily lift the bread tin lid off so my mum can't hear me, and she'd be like, from the other room, I can hear you.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_04: Like, but I'm trying to eat because I'm dieting and I'm not meant to be eating.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_04: So I'd it almost like, because it's on your mind so much, I was making it harder for myself and eating cakes, and I'd be like, or I'd do the whole diet starts on Monday, which means I need to stay up until 12 o'clock Sunday night and eat as much as I possibly can.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_04: Because diet starts on Monday.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_04: Like, how stupid is that?
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_04: If I just ate less on a Sunday, Monday wouldn't be as bad.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: There are too many stories of bankruptcies, mental health issues, and unfortunately two is time.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think it's time for to act.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: Every year, we see thousands of athletes that reach a point where they need to consider their life active sports.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: This might be under timing, injury, or they need to juggle dual careers between sport and a job.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_00: As a former English professional footballer, I have somehow managed to transition from sport into banking, strategy, innovation, and now life coach, career practitioner, and founder of the Second Wind Academy.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I want to help those around me find their career secondwith.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Find me on Insta or through my new Facebook group, Second Wind Academy, where I'd love to know your thoughts and suggestions.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you for sharing it and thanks for saying it because there are going to be athletes, there are going to be everyday people listening to this.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: And one not being aware of what you were going through, never mind what other athletes uh are perhaps having to deal with, that goes beyond the actual competition, you know, being on the mat itself.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_01: This is just a Yeah, it's just a stuff that we're having to go through or deal with.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that must have been really hard to be doing that without well, without saying it out loud.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so I guess like when I say live in the dream, it's very different to what people see, and obviously we it it looks like, oh wow, and and I I am super grateful I got to do that.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_04: Like it it really is I I was living the dream, but the dream is not quite as as flowery and as think as you think it might be.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_01: So what was it that after the four years, you said you took four years out of study.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_01: What is it that made you think it was time to go back and and or go and study something?
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so I always knew like I wanted to do teaching afterwards and I didn't want to get to my end of my career and then have to start doing my degree then, because that obviously would delay me even further.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_04: And I do think um like injuries helped.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so What do you mean helped?
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_04: Uh sorry, so as in being injured and I can't do the sport that I wanted to do, like made me realise how important it is to have something else.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_04: Like your athlete career can literally end at any point.
• 32:57
  SPEAKER_04: And even just for my head, so I wasn't going away and travelling with everybody else, like my head overthinks as it is, so it could just like go crazy.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_04: So just having that other thing, and it meant, or even not when I was injured, when I was competing, if judo didn't go well, that was my everything.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_04: That was all I had.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_04: So that was my life, basically, like riding on that competition.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_04: So if that hadn't gone well, my my life was very rubbish at that point.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_04: Whereas at least then if I had uni assignments or anything or just something else, I just think it's a much healthier balance.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_04: So you're not so obsessive over just the one thing.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_04: Cause I think it almost has to be an obsession in a way because it's it's it's hard.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_04: It's not easy.
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_04: If it was easy, everybody would do it kind of thing.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_04: But it's just really healthy to have that something else that can take your mind off it.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: And did it succeed?
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: Like it's um did it succeed?
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: Did it take your mind off it?
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I do think, I mean, especially during the the time that I uh did my uni, I was broken a lot.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_04: So it was really, really good for me not to be just left in the gym by myself, like while everyone's away training.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_04: Like I had lectures to go to and other people to talk about other things too, and yeah, it just it's it was healthier, that's for sure.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_01: So during that time you had this balance between the studies and rehabilitation.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's too much.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so I think in 2016, like I spent most of that cycle injured and I didn't go to Rio.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_04: And I thought I'm gonna quit, like I genuinely um started talking to people about it.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_04: And I mean that wasn't the last time I did it.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um because I just thought I got to think of like the rest of my life.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_04: And then again, so I yeah, I taking it one day at a time, somehow found myself keeping going and and then getting the result, and you kind of get that buzz again and it's possible again.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um and and then I actually after the after the Commonwealth Games, I think it was, I was gonna quit.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_04: Say quit sounds so horrible, retire, but yeah, and then was in the 20, what, 18?
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_04: 2022.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_04: 2022, yeah, 2022 games, the home ones in Birmingham.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, okay, so because you did then you you did Tokyo, the code so you did.
• 35:27
  SPEAKER_04: Tokyo 2021, and then and then Birmingham after, and I thought I wanted to quit, and I just kept crying, and I was like, I felt like I was like breaking my own heart.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_04: I was like, well, why am I doing this to myself?
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_04: I obviously don't want to, but I was trying to convince myself, and I remember my family um commented on that holiday we'd gone to see my auntie and uncle in the South for France, and I was eating loads as if I was trying to get so heavy and so far away from my weight that that would be the reason I have to stop.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_04: And I still wasn't getting that heavy.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_04: So I was like, that that reason to stop wasn't there, and I was just I spoke to my coach and I was like, I'm obviously not ready to stop.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_04: And then I came back and snapped my bow bicept tendon.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um because I remember being in the gym and it's called like Popeye Eye because it just goes really big.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_01: It goes on all the way up.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, when that does that weird thing.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I was I sent a picture to the the physio and doctor had already gone out to the world championships, I think it was at the time, and I sent them a picture like I don't think my arm's meant to look like this.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_04: I've got a bump.
• 36:29
  SPEAKER_04: Um but uh I forgot where I was going because I talked so much so much, sorry.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_01: So 22.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: We were finishing.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_01: You you were trying you you were sort of trying to give yourself an excuse to quit.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah, and somehow I've jumped to a different story that was at the end of my career.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_04: So I've mixed two stories together because my head black.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: I suppose I'm I'm in well well I I guess we'll come back to it very soon because I th I'm interested then in you're thinking that you was time to quit.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: You'd just done the home games.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_01: I guess it feels like it's a a great way to leave.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like, woohoo, I've done this, I've done my Olympics, that was a dream, I've um got I've meddled at at com at home com games.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: Off I go.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_01: Did you think then I guess you're looking back, so it's a bit hard to to say, but what was it right, it I should now leave the sport because I'm to an extent kind of on top, this is when I should leave, or was it it's time to get on with my life, I'm going into teaching, I want to do all these things.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_04: I think I remembered where I was going now before.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah, I think I just realized I loved judo so much, I didn't want to stop it.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_04: So then when my body kind of snapped again, and the surgeon said to me, like, this is career ending.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and it's almost like that was my body saying, enough's enough.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_04: Like, yeah, because uh like I said, every operation I was like, this is if it happens again, it's got to be the last one.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_04: And I just kept going.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_04: I think my head isn't good good at stopping and saying when.
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_04: So I felt like that my body took that decision from me, which meant I was kind of at peace.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_04: Because I always thought I'd be too sad to watch judo on the telly or cheer other people on because I'd be wanting to do it.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_04: But I feel like because my body stopped when it was ready to stop, like I can tear on and be really happy and really excited to watch people fighting without that like sadness.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, yeah, I did I did like a master uh I did a session where a Japanese judo person was taking like he's fantastic, and he was taking a session.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_04: And I was really learning lobs, and I'd got that that buzz again to be like, oh like I don't know, it's that excited feeling I can't describe it.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_04: But then I was also super excited to take what I'd learn like back to the club and and pass that on to other people.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_04: Like I always thought after judo, I'd hang up my kits and I'd have nothing to do with it ever again, and that would be my career, and I'll put myself through enough and put it behind me.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_04: But it's been like the complete opposite.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_04: I realize there's so much more to judo than just the competition side and I'm loving just being a part of it, and it's it's my happy place basically.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:09
  SPEAKER_01: So I I've just got a bit of a time confusion for me.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: So you did Paris.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_01: Your bicep was Paris.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_04: No, not Paris.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_04: I'm confused now.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_04: Uh you're talking about Olympics.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_01: Olympics.
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_04: Uh Tokyo is my last one.
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_01: Tokyo, yeah.
• 39:27
  SPEAKER_01: So you did Tokyo, you did then the com games.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um you thought it was time for you to quit.
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um because you should do.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I came back from the Commonwealth, wanted to quit, didn't quit, carried on because I was like, why am I putting?
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_04: I'm torturing myself.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_04: Um and then my arm snapped.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_04: That's right.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_04: So I was like, okay.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: Because I was like, I didn't think you did Paris, but okay.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Didn't um missed a a whole few years.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we're back into this thing then of Utah, right.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_01: It is time.
• 40:01
  SPEAKER_01: You had somewhat of a I'm I'm wanting to then understand.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, you knew you wanted to quit.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: How clear was your plan?
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: How clear did you know I'm stopping now?
• 40:10
  SPEAKER_01: And boom, next day I'm doing this.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: What what was that like for you at that moment?
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_04: So you've just reminded me actually what also happened.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_04: So after the Commonwealth, when I wanted to, I thought I wanted to quit, I started my PGCE, which is the teacher training, which was always the plan after judo.
• 40:27
  SPEAKER_04: Um and then it was getting to the point where it was going to be like placements in a school, so I wasn't going to be able to do because at the time my uni was of the same campus as my judo, so I could literally go to one and run into the other.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but then it was I was going to be placed in a school, so I wouldn't be able to train full-time.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_04: So I kind of had to make that decision.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_04: And that's when I made the decision.
• 40:47
  SPEAKER_04: I found out I could postpone it and go back, pause it basically, and go back to it like a year later.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so I paused it and did the judo and my arm snapped.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_04: So I was kind of already had that waiting to go back.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_01: And what was how did that feel?
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: How did that feel knowing that I am actually retiring now?
• 41:12
  SPEAKER_04: I remember doing the interview for British Judo and I felt like I'd not really said it out loud.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't really want to tell anyone.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_04: Because saying it like I mean athletes talk all the time about this identity, but it's it's a real thing.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_04: Like my Twitter name is Judo Gem.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_04: Like, that's me.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_04: And and I mean a teacher was uh helping me today and he came and he was like, Oh, you're working with the Olympic athlete.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_04: And and obviously that's what other people know me as.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_04: I'm the judo person.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_04: So losing that identity is is scary.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_04: Like, like I said, it's all I've known, and almost you don't realise how we're so looked after at judo, like you have a nutritionist, a psychologist, an SNC coach, like your judo coach who wears all the hats and is like everything um physio, doctor, and then you're like thrown into normal life, and it's like there you go, do it on yourself, do it by yourself.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like, um, what do I do now?
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_04: But I remember actually PGCE was really, really, really hard.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_04: And I feel like I didn't have time to kind of dwell on that.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_04: Like it actually, I remember thinking, I'm so busy, I don't have time to be sad that I'm not doing judo.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_04: So that was a good thing.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_04: That kind of just like I jumped straight in the deep end, I feel like.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_04: Right.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_01: And and that happened.
• 42:32
  SPEAKER_01: So that yeah, that the PGCE, which is probably something like a post grad cert in education or something like that, right?
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um something along something those lines.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: But uh for those who aren't in England thinking, what on earth is this PGCE?
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: It is effectively this um it can be quite intense, um, top-on to a degree that gives you the ability to teach, all right?
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_01: Just like that that teaching certificate, if anything.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: Reasonably intense.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: Is it a year sort of focused in?
• 43:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um but then that's where you did the placements.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_04: And then the two semesters, yeah.
• 43:07
  SPEAKER_04: And then it's and like it genuinely is as a teacher, like experience helps you.
• 43:13
  SPEAKER_04: And I kind of was I felt like I was starting at the bottom.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, because I was.
• 43:19
  SPEAKER_04: I've done like coaching, I've done this, but teaching, I was starting at the bottom a lot older than maybe some teachers, so it was kind of scary and hard.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_04: But I do think like the the judo helps, like it gives you that confidence.
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_04: That I don't know, I don't know.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_04: I I like to think it helps.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I'm I'm sure there's like you say, the you you um whilst you're starting at the bottom from a teaching level perspective, you uh you know, that's what I'm coming into.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_01: You are you know able to bring some of your life experience, travel experience, competitive experience into your teaching.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, definitely.
• 43:55
  SPEAKER_04: Like there's so many transferable skills.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_04: Like even today, in in a feedback from a session that I did, he was like resilience.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, well, that makes sense since I've had 12 operations, and everyone says that kind of like develops that resilience.
• 44:09
  SPEAKER_04: So I think there's lots of things that Judo's given me that I think can help with other like I mean, for one, it shows you're prepared to put the work in and you care and you try, and and they're all things that you need in a classroom where you've got 30 kids to try and help, and you need to care and and and and try hard when it when it's hard and keep picking yourself back up.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_04: It's like it's hard to win a JJ competition sometimes.
• 44:33
  SPEAKER_04: I feel like they can't describe it.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_04: Come out like sweating.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_01: What what age are you teaching?
• 44:41
  SPEAKER_04: Secondary, so years seven to eleven.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I should say their names, it's like their ages.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_04: I mean like 12 to 16 or something like that.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, yeah.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: But that that's for yeah, so 12 to 16 year olds, maths.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_01: So that's when maths is starting to get pretty serious uh in d in terms of actually it is probably some of the hardest times of maths because it's so broad uh uh and you have to take up to 16.
• 45:03
  SPEAKER_01: But um I suppose what what for me is quite interesting is what do you it's clear what you brought with you.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_01: You said you talk about resilience, you talk about that hard work and and a sense of care.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: What do you think you had to leave behind from being a uh judo athlete Olympian?
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_01: What do you have to leave behind to become an effective teacher?
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_04: Uh what do you mean by like leave behind?
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, there are certain traits, there are certain strengths that made you a world-class um judo athlete.
• 45:33
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_01: When you step away from that, you're moving into now a teaching environment.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_01: There are elements that you can say that you brought with you.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_01: I have to be resilient, great, I can keep doing that, I've got to do the hard work.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_01: Are there any things that you switched on to be an awesome judoka that you then have to switch off or dial down to work in a school?
• 45:55
  SPEAKER_04: Fighting.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_04: That's the first thing that comes to my head.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_04: You can't fight your way through a classroom, unfortunately.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um, I feel like that would make life a lot easier sometimes.
• 46:07
  SPEAKER_04: You can't do that.
• 46:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um I'm trying to think what what else.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_04: I I think so with teaching, you can never, you can never do enough.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_04: So almost at some point you've got to be like, like when I was marking the other day until 10:30, I still had marking to do, but I was like, I need to call it.
• 46:28
  SPEAKER_04: Like, and I feel like with sport, again, I guess you could still never do enough, but you're kind of, I don't know, I trusted in my coaches and they'd tell me, this is your plan, you do this kind of thing.
• 46:40
  SPEAKER_04: Like, and I trust in that process and I do what they told me to do.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_04: So once I've done my wet session, I can go home and and I can turn the telly on or something.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_04: But with teaching, there's always more to do.
• 46:52
  SPEAKER_04: And you've got to, for your life, like, so you don't burn out, you've got to know when to stop.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_04: And that's I think as a new teacher, that's also hard.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yes.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's interesting.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean but I suppose the consistency that comes with it is the training.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_01: There's a well, not the training, but that having a plan.
• 47:12
  SPEAKER_01: And you mentioned earlier, as a in judo, you you looked after someone gives you that plan that you can trust.
• 47:19
  SPEAKER_01: And perhaps in teaching, well, whilst yeah, there's a curriculum, you're the one who you still kind of set a bit of a plan for each of the children that you are teaching and having to help them to achieve their different goals.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, so it's like uh I don't know how much is like okay to say, but for example, I'm trying to get students to do their homework, and if they're not, I stayed and did phone calls to try and get them to do their homework because I think it will help them and care about them.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_04: I'm not getting paid more money because I've stayed to do to do phone calls, but I'm doing that, yeah, because I want to and I care, and and I I like to think that they know that I care sometimes.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um it's yeah, it's uh it's lots of different kinds of challenges at school.
• 48:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yes, there is.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, I think you you said earlier on teaching was always some, you know, you're s surrounded by teachers growing up around you in the family.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you always felt like it was something that you were going to go into next.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: Look, you you're a few years, four years or a few years into now as a as a teacher.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_01: So very early in that transition phase, but how was it feeling?
• 48:35
  SPEAKER_04: Uh they're not lying when they say it gets easier, and I do believe that.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_04: But uh kind of a side note, but similar.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_04: So what something that I miss from being an athlete is like I remember just before the Commonwealth, and there would have been a few times like you get that feeling where you know you're really fit, you believe in yourself, and you've got that kind of buzz, and and it's sad, I will never get that again.
• 48:56
  SPEAKER_04: Like I am never going to feel as fit as I did.
• 48:58
  SPEAKER_04: I'm never going to be as strong.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_04: So no matter what I do in the gym, and hopefully that will wear off.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_04: But now, if I do anything, I can't help compare it to when I was training full-time and I was at the strongest and fittest in my life.
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_04: And it and it's kind of sad.
• 49:11
  SPEAKER_04: Like me and my sister did work out on holiday, and she's far more motivated than me, like without without having to do it, like I struggle.
• 49:20
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but just the feeling of not being as fit as that is really hard.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_04: I I've actually I've just found some classes at 24-7 fitness where you know you watch the memes on the and and everybody's having the time of their life, and it's a full class of happy people.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_04: And because I remember when I did break myself and they said to me, You're gonna have to do rehab for the rest of your life.
• 49:41
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, Yeah, I'm not gonna do that.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_04: But it's almost like these classes have got the strength and the rehab exercises that I need to do.
• 49:48
  SPEAKER_04: So to me, like we've got a gym at our school, and and someone was asking about today, and I was like, Yeah, it's lovely.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_04: I walk past it all the time.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_04: I don't go in it.
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_04: Like finding that motivation to train when I haven't got to is very different.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_04: And but yeah, the classes genuinely like for me, I've I'm happy.
• 50:04
  SPEAKER_04: I've it took a while.
• 50:06
  SPEAKER_04: I tried training by myself and I didn't like it, and I tried loads of different things, but for me, I found the classes is it I I'll drag myself off the sofa on a Friday when all I want to do is sit down and fall asleep to go to these classes.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_04: And so I'm I feel like I'm happy that I've found that thing that will keep me healthy, head and body.
• 50:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, mind and body, keeping you healthy, keeping you active.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, it it it it is what we need, and we often forget that as or often so many people that I speak with forget that they need to keep moving, you know, as because we've done it, you've done it for so much of your life that just stopping is is kind of not it's certainly not a healthy option.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, literally.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_04: So I came home uh from school this week, and I remember it it was a hard day.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_04: We'll call it hard, like to like kind of summarise it.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_04: Um and I thought, I really need also someone said to me, have a glass of wine.
• 51:03
  SPEAKER_04: And I thought, I don't like to drink on a school night, but I thought it's been so hard, maybe maybe I need one.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_04: And I came home and I went for a run and I walked the dog and I thought, I don't need one now.
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_04: Like to me, movement, I mean I did get the squirrel cream out and I just had some squirry cream, which is wonderful.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_04: I just needed something.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_04: But like I afterwards I just felt, and that that's been a few times I've come back from school and I've run like faster than I would if I'd got up on a weekend fresh or whatever, because I feel like it's helped my head like channel it.
• 51:36
  SPEAKER_04: And and last week I went to my judo club at Wolverhampton Judo Club, and I literally said, This is better than I feel like any therapy, anything, because it's just yeah, movement you like you kind of hit.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_04: And and to me, specifically, judo is even better, I think.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_04: And like just going there genuinely is my happy place, and and it's just yeah, everybody like it's that team thing.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_04: Like to me, my judo club is a second family.
• 52:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and and you I was just gonna say, so you've you've stayed in that community, and but you're also giving back.
• 52:07
  SPEAKER_01: You're also as a uh a coach now taking classes, and indeed you were I think you were you're doing one today.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_04: So um that's an after school club at my school, yeah.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_01: So you've got so how are you keeping involved in judo um itself and and what are you doing as as as part of um I guess the judo scene?
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_04: Uh so I've got commentary actually oh on Sunday.
• 52:33
  SPEAKER_04: It's the national championship.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm commentating at that.
• 52:35
  SPEAKER_04: And I mean, that was something I I never thought I'd do, but and again, like I didn't think I'd want to ever want to watch sport, but it kind of put me out of my comfort zone, which I think is always good and exploring new things.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_04: So it's a bit scary, but I'm I'm really enjoying it, like I did it last year, and that's how did you get into how did you get into the commentary?
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_04: We had an email through, and it was like basically an application for like commentating at the Olympic Games.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_04: Uh judo's got Neil Adams, um, and and he's like a fantastic commentator, but I applied for it and I got onto this course and I tried it.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_04: I've never done it before.
• 53:13
  SPEAKER_04: I didn't have a clue what I was doing.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_04: Um and they were like, well, we don't need a judo person.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but it was really good experience.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_04: And then I think because of that, I then did it at the national championships and I enjoyed it a lot more.
• 53:26
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it's just getting to watch the sport that I love and and talking, I can do that a lot too.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but in terms of like at my so I'm doing my favourite Wednesday and my judo day, and I've had feedback from teachers saying like students have been more engaged in this than they've seen them in in anything at their school life.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_04: So, and I mean that really hits home to me.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_04: Like, judo isn't I'm biased, but this is people that haven't loved judo, didn't know anything about judo, and they're benefiting from it.
• 53:58
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and like other classes, like teachers have said, they're not students aren't necessarily good at winning or losing, but they're taking onto this really well and they're giving it everything.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_04: And like that to me, I feel like that's the I can't win fights, I'm not competing anymore, but that to me is like wins, like giving other letting other people see what benefits judo can give them.
• 54:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's wonderful.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_01: And and was it you that sort of drove the idea of doing it uh after school?
• 54:28
  SPEAKER_01: Or or was it was it already there in the school that you went to?
• 54:31
  SPEAKER_04: So I'm really lucky my head teacher loves judo.
• 54:34
  SPEAKER_04: Um it was actually like my judo coaches' wife who knows about the school and had grandchildren go there.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_04: Um so that's why I went there.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_04: Um so I kind of went there knowing it's like the next town that I went there knowing.
• 54:49
  SPEAKER_04: City, I think it's city now, but uh knowing about the judo.
• 54:53
  SPEAKER_04: Um and yeah, like I was again, it's out of my comfort zone.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_04: Like I've done master classes before, I've helped at my judo club, but having my own club, I was really scared.
• 55:03
  SPEAKER_04: Um, just because I thought I don't know what I'm gonna do, whatever.
• 55:07
  SPEAKER_04: And then I've gone there and realized like this is what I've done my whole life.
• 55:10
  SPEAKER_04: Like I I I open do judo, I know how to tell people how to do judo.
• 55:14
  SPEAKER_04: Um uh and yeah, I today had a plan, got there, and different students have turned up, so changed the plan.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_04: And it's like, okay, I don't need to be scared about this.
• 55:25
  SPEAKER_04: This is this is where I've I'm happy.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_01: So that that fear, that that scareness, how did you overcome it?
• 55:34
  SPEAKER_04: Uh did it, and then you don't have a choice, then I um what it sounds like suggested it, and I was like, oh yeah, it sounds brilliant.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_04: Didn't tell her I was scared.
• 55:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um and then um literally I like I left it bosomed tonight, um, like whatever happened at day at school, and I'd go to the judo club and yeah, left it really happy and because they're enjoying it.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_04: And I'm like, I want other people to see.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_04: And actually, so I don't know if I should say this.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_04: Um, like I jokingly, if there's like people play fighting in the corridor or whatever, I'd say, if you want to fight, go to judo.
• 56:08
  SPEAKER_04: And then I was in my classroom the other day and I heard one of my students say to some other students, if you want to fight, go to judo.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_04: And I was like, Yes, I don't care how cheesy and how much uncool I am, but I was like, I'm happy they're spreading, spreading the word of judo.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's wonderful.
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_01: And look, uh there's one one books we have we haven't really spoken on, and um, you know, and you you mentioned it to do with ADHD.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_01: And you I'm interested then, how how has that impacted you as a, you know, throughout your sport career?
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_01: Was it something you knew when you were younger, or is it something that has been diagnosed more recently?
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_04: So I didn't get diagnosed till I was like 21 or something like that.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_04: But when I told my friends, and I remember like my friend's dad saying, Yeah, we knew that, Gemma, we've known all along you've had ADHD.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_04: Uh like I was always known for asking too many questions at judo.
• 57:04
  SPEAKER_04: It'd be like, Gemma, have you got another question?
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, I just I think it's given me extra energy.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_04: So like now for talk about it, and then obviously, especially this is why I'm kind of also passionate about having a judo club at school, because for me, that was my channel of energy.
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_04: Like, I just think I'd be bouncing off the walls in my house if I they didn't have judo to send me to.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_04: So it's kind of good for my parents as well.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_04: Um, and I see students at school like bouncing around in the rooms, and I'm like, throw them into judo.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_04: Like I genuinely think it's such a good way to channel that energy, and and I maybe wouldn't have achieved what I'd got without it.
• 57:43
  unknown: Yeah.
• 57:43
  SPEAKER_04: So yeah.
• 57:45
  SPEAKER_04: I think it's it's like a superpower.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_04: It's not like people speak about it negatively, and it's just something that I think if you channel it right, it can make good things, great things.
• 57:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's why that's another reason for you to also keep active, keep within the sport now, um, whilst you're a teacher.
• 58:05
  SPEAKER_01: But as a teacher, you've you've probably got a billion things going through your mind.
• 58:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um because they're asking you questions as well.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_04: Uh yeah, I do think that and you've got like five million students trying to ask you questions at the same time.
• 58:19
  unknown: Yeah.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_01: That's correct.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I'm I'm learning that yeah.
• 58:23
  SPEAKER_01: So uh Gemma, I guess when you look back at your career and the transition that you've had, if a young athlete comes to you now and asks, what can I do to help me transition better into a career after sport, what sort of guidance from your experience would you give?
• 58:42
  SPEAKER_04: It's kind of like what I've spoken back with a teacher recently at school, because students might be really, really interested in their sport and and think they can just put education on the on not not care about it.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_04: But actually, like I said, sport can end at any point.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_04: You need to make sure that you've also got that backup.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_04: And so, yes, your education is important, you do it, and you've got it for the rest of your life, which is why I was able to have that four-year break, because I'd I'd got my A levels, I'd got my GCSEs, they weren't going anywhere.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_04: Um, but also I genuinely think doing the whilst I was injured so much before the Rio cycle, doing uni saved me.
• 59:22
  SPEAKER_04: Sorry, um, because just for that healthy balance of having something else, so that and I I think for me, sometimes when I put everything into it, I got my sleeping right, I got my eating right, I did absolutely everything I possibly could for a competition and it didn't go well.
• 59:40
  SPEAKER_04: And then actually, when I thought, so I did that for one European championships and I was devastated, didn't couldn't have done any more.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_04: I don't like I I felt, and I thought, oh, maybe it's not that I don't care, but I'm not gonna watch every single thing that I eat and watch everything.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I won a Grand Prix like two weeks later, so it's almost like I've actually my best results.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_04: So my European championships when I won it, which genuinely was like the highest point in my life.
• 1:00:06
  SPEAKER_04: The day before I wasn't sure if I was gonna make weight.
• 1:00:08
  SPEAKER_04: I wasn't thinking about who I'm fighting and over-analyzed and everything I could possibly do.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_04: I was thinking, I'm not sure if I'm fighting, like I don't know if I can do this.
• 1:00:16
  SPEAKER_04: And then I went and and I think having that balance is the most important thing.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_04: And that's what I've learned.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_04: My genuinely my best results have come when I haven't been as obsessed with only having one thing.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_01: Gemma, that's great.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh thanks for sharing that perspective.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks for bringing your whole perspective and your story to the show with us today.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, if people do want to get in touch, perhaps they're exploring, want to explore more judo, want to explore teaching after their career, where's a a a good place to get in contact with you?
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_04: So uh I'm on Instagram, Gemma Howell.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_04: I'm on well, I actually stopped going on Twitter since they took my blue tick away.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_04: But I am on on X.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, and there's obviously like the British Judo website.
• 1:01:04
  SPEAKER_04: So if if you're on Australia, not British Judo website, that'd be quite fun.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, but listen, uh, that's that's all good.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you.
• 1:01:13
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sure people reach out.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_01: People are listening to this all over the world, and I think the lessons that you or your experience that you've shared goes beyond just being in the UK, it goes beyond just uh judo.
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I really think that people are gonna be able to take away a lot from listening to our conversation.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_01: And if they enjoyed it half as much as I did, it's gonna be of great value.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_01: So, Gemma, thanks again for joining me on the show today.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you for having me.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_04: Sorry I talked so much, but I've enjoyed it.
• 1:01:40
  SPEAKER_04: Thank you.
• 1:01:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's good.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's good.
• 1:01:42
  SPEAKER_01: We want you to talk as much.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_01: You're sharing more.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_01: Now I really appreciate it.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks.
• 1:01:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to the Second Win podcast.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: We hope you enjoyed hearing insights from today's athlete on transitioning out of competitive careers.
• 1:01:56
  SPEAKER_00: If you're looking for career clarity for your next step, make sure you check out secondwin.io for more information or to book a consultation with me.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_00: I'd like to thank Claire from Betty Book Design, Nancy from Savvy Podcast Solutions, and Cerise from Copying Content by Lola for their help in putting this podcast together.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's all from me.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_00: Take it easy until next time.