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Does success make us happy? · Red Couch Theology

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Hello, hello and welcome to another episode of the Red Couch
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Theology podcast this week. Let me be honest, we get a
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little melancholy. We talk about the tensions of
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growing older and finding meaning and purpose in life and
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how so much of life feels fleeting.
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You, you rise the ranks to the next step in life and it just
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feels empty. And then you rise and you get
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this new aspect of life and it feels empty.
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And what's up with that? And what do we do about it as
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human beings? And does God have anything to
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say about it? Let's TuneIn, we're live.
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Oh, and wow, we're dark. What?
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Dark and at a weird angle. How do you guys like our new
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camera? It's horrible.
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Let's see, is this going to work?
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I know. What can you do about that?
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Aaron took a camera that's been working perfectly well and
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changed it for another one. Look at that, I can adjust our
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camera settings remotely now are.
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We at a weird angle. Well, no, I am sitting.
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I'm like I was diagonal like this.
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Are we at a weird angle? I don't know, maybe the the
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screens just sort of weird angle.
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Look at this, we're we're adjusting camera color settings
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right on the fly. What a what an intro.
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That's passable. I'll make it better in the
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future, sure, but. Welcome.
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Welcome to the red car. It's not about camera dynamics.
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It isn't. No, we were.
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Alex and I were just talking about my final that I took in
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seminary and so I know you guys all came here for to hear me
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complain about my final. Aaron is brilliant at many
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things, but writing? Content not as bad.
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No, no, not the the the quality of my spelling capacity, I
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should say. Handwriting.
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Handwriting abysmal. Yeah.
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Grammar less than abysmal, Probably first grade level, no
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well spelling first grade level grammar 3rd grade.
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So it's shocking that anyone allows me in a professional
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environment. So.
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Is a church a professional environment?
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That's a great question. Is it boss?
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Remember, John Piper wrote a book.
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Brothers, we are not professionals.
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Oh. No, I didn't know that.
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And so I never I mean. Me and Piper are not always
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simpatico, but on that. There you go, get it.
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He's that guy. That dude's smart, but I don't
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agree with his smart sometimes. You don't agree with his smart?
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What does that even mean? Well, he's.
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Like he's quick. He's like he's, he's he's, he's
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like he's, he's got his framework and he's very good
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with his framework. But, but, but you know, if you
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don't agree with his framework, it doesn't matter how good he is
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with said framework. So.
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Yeah, yeah, I get that. Well, I should probably try and
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stop color grading our footage right now.
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Can't. Can't AI do that for you?
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No, because it probably could if we had modern equipment.
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This is. Remember, this is all like
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equipment that I've just pirated from other projects in the past.
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I don't like that. Huh.
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I like that. Yeah, yeah.
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We're a pirate, which is why we're a pirate pub podcast.
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Let's put it like this. The Red Couch Theology podcast
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has never once been a line item in the South.
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It hasn't. I've never budgeted anything.
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It's like it's like it, it is the like the the place where
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equipment goes to die and maybe where ideas go to die also, I
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don't know. So if our podcast is
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significantly looks significantly worse for the 2%
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of you that watch it, I apologize.
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I'm trying a new camera and we might fix it in the future, but
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who really cares? I don't know.
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Speaking of. Which How's it going?
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Good. Yeah, getting ready to talk
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about Lamentations this week. I'm so excited.
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So excited. Such a great book.
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Yeah, underrated. Definitely underrated.
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You know, there's a couple of writers that are like the
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Lamentations people that like, they just get the book and I
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almost wish they didn't exist because I love Lamentations so
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much. That you wish you were there I.
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Would be putting my hand up to be the Lamentations guy.
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I'd be like. I wish I could just like so in
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this space. But you're like like a self
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professing 7 on the enneagram with a wing of seven which isn't
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a same. With A7 wing.
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Yeah, he's, like, all in. I don't know.
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And yet he loves lamentations like this.
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So sevens are like, if you're not an Enneagram person, Sevens
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are notorious for, like, avoiding dark and heavy
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emotions. Yeah, and Lamentations is like
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the epitome of heavy emotion. Well, here's what I would say.
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Apparently healthy sevens have a lot of five, but they're like
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place of contemplation and a lot of like, you know.
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Researchers. Yeah, and, but also like people
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that can sit in that space of like, what's the term?
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I'm looking for reflection, you know, that, that space of not
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having to be at the party, but able to think and, you know,
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live in the, the quiet spaces, not the necessarily the grieving
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spaces or, or the overly emotional spaces, but the, the,
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the place of thought. And and I I, I appreciate that
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way more than I ever did. Yeah, and back.
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Back when I thought I was a seven.
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Yeah, when you know, who knows? Maybe I still am.
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I don't. Yeah, I know.
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No one, no one currently on the staff would ever believe that I
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was ever that. No.
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But past staff iterations would have unequivocally the I I still
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think that I struggle with some of the deep emotions they and I
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think sometimes encountering a book like Lamentations or a
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heavy movie that just really articulates deep, painful
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emotions. It almost like reminds me that
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I'm still alive. If I can feel anything deeply,
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it reminds me that you know what?
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I'm not dead. And I've like, yes.
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So it's like a, it's like a helpful thing to like awaken the
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emotional lobe. So IA few things I love about
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Lamentations. I love poetry.
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Yeah, always loved poetry. So it's deeply poetic.
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It's it's brutally honest and I like brutally honest.
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It's, it's, it's counter intuitive.
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Like can you think of another book of scripture that ends as
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negative as Lamentations? Maybe a few of the Psalms do.
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Yeah, like a lot. Of book as a whole.
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Like, you know, I mean, those are sections of a book.
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They're they're, they're individual poems, but like, I'm
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talking about like a whole, a whole book.
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Like Jeremiah. I think Jeremiah ends up
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optimistic in the end. There's a, a 70 year like
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timeline in play. So it's for that generation.
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It's negative, but it's, it's ultimately hopeful for, for the
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people. Yeah.
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But Lamentations, at least on surface reading, is like, you
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know, have you forgotten us forever?
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You know what? You might hate us.
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God. The end.
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Yeah. So anyway, I love to get get
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into Lamentations chapter 5 especially I love for some
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reason. This is turn this is turning
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into an advertisement for next Sunday.
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Yeah, absolutely. Which is great.
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Yeah, that's our world. Hey, this Sunday, next Sunday
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and the last Sunday. Yeah, but last Sunday I did not
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talk about lamentation. No, you talked about ambition,
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no, which we had some debate about whether that's an emotion
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and. I think at different points I I
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think I used desire more. Yeah, I know leading up to in
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our planning, the language was ambition.
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And then we we talked about it a little bit and yeah, there's
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like a there's an emotion behind ambition.
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Yes, which is, you know, I, I, I actually had a, a list of, of
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emotions like envy, desire, ambition.
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If that is, is is is like is 1 vanity all different at least
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temptations. And and and I almost feel like
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used like interchangeably at times.
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But but the language was around like what the New Testament
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would call selfish ambition. Yeah, I think like we're going
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to, I'm going to build something for me and it's going to give me
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everything I ever wanted, which is is actually like the American
9:44
dream, right? Yeah, so is the American being
9:48
dream bad? Maybe.
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What do you know about American Dream?
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British person? Asks the African.
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Maybe it's the American. I love how how I could be like I
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can get on my like American high horse.
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Meanwhile, I'm actually was spent my formative years in
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Africa. So.
10:14
So yeah, maybe it's the American nightmare.
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Interesting. The band is is named So I here's
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what I think. I think it's not that the
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American Dream is bad. I think one we've probably like
10:33
shifted what the American Dream means because of the examples
10:39
were maybe set. So I think when you think like
10:42
back to the early part, the first half of the 20th century,
10:47
the American Dream actually had a lot to do with duty.
10:52
Like it was, it was like, you know, John F Kennedy, like ask
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not what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for
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your country. Like though there was maybe
11:03
wealth as a side bucket, but it was really like earn money, buy
11:09
American stuff, get married, have kids, you know, have a
11:15
house, like all those different things, like, and live out your
11:19
days peacefully around that family.
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And, and I actually see that in like an older generation.
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Like, like, I think like the example I usually go to is
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Laura's grandfather who passed away, but he'd served his
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country in the military. He'd worked for Indiana
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Electric. He was a fairly high level
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engineer for them. I think he managed A-Team.
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Lived in an age where he came with a final salary pension, had
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built stock like options throughout.
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Like his management. Owned a house in in Indiana that
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he lived in during the winter. Owned a house up in Minnesota
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that he lived in during the summer.
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Retired with enough to not worry about money again.
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Had to had boats and was able to fix them when they broke.
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Had cars and was was able to roll a car and was able to
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replace it every year or every show every three years gave a
12:21
chunk of money to his church every year gave money to his
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grandkids, his kids. Like was able to like be that
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patriarch in the middle of a family, but but was not driven
12:34
by any huge ambition. I mean, he lived in a like a
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1500 square foot house in Indiana.
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The house in I think he built that house himself or half of
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it. Same in Minnesota, He built half
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of it himself. Like it was fundamentally like a
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good dream centered around faith and family.
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Whereas now I think a, a, a little bit, our dreams like
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expanded a little bit and, and often like when you, when you
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see it includes things like, you know, maybe like, like look at
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some of the wealthier people, like marriages that end after 30
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years because the American dreams actually pulled you away
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from family. Yeah, Yeah.
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Well. Has some elements that may maybe
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are not what they want to, I don't know.
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I'm not American, as you say. Well, yeah, And I think in it.
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So perhaps, maybe the way to phrase it would be that the
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American Dream is fine as long as it's actually not the dream.
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Yeah. Because when you say it's the
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American Dream, then it's like it becomes central to your
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primary pursuits, and that's just idolatry.
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Yeah. As good as all of the actual
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things, individual things may be as a subset of some other
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pursuit, like a healthy family that's that goes to church and
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you know, you know, tries to care for their kids well and all
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those sorts of things. None of those things are bad.
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It's actually when they become ultimate that they actually
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become empty. And you use this illustration
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where you almost died. Alex really lives on the edge in
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his preaching ministry where he's climbing the the ladder or
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the steps of like Babylon, as it were, and you're opening these
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boxes and they're all empty. Yeah, you get you like strive
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for that first step and the second step and the third step
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and they're each one along the way is empty.
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Which is not a like, it's not even just the guys in the
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spiritual like church world that are starting to ask those
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questions. Yeah.
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Like, like actually some of the language I used I took from Alan
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Watts and Alan Watts years ago did this, this, this.
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He's a philosopher from England in the like the 20th century.
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He's he's he's quite long dead now comparatively and he.
15:17
Compared to what? He's dead Compared to what?
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Like like in terms of. Like someone who's alive.
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Quite a while he's one. Of oh, OK.
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Like quite long dead. Yeah, yeah, he's the comparison
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and and and he, he talks about how like what we're given this
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like these constant targets to hit.
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Yeah. And, and life will always come
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when we hit the next target. And, and, and what he ends up
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saying is he said like we've built lives that are centered
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around a journey. Now he would say we've
15:53
overemphasized that because when you talk about a journey, the
15:57
point is always at the end. So the purpose of life becomes
16:02
to get to the end. Whereas he would use language of
16:05
like, well, no, it's a musical thing and you were, you were
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supposed to dance and enjoy the music as it, as it went along.
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So, so his emphasis would be we've, we've prioritized lives
16:19
that can get us somewhere, not lives that that are present in
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the moment. Now I would want to add the
16:27
importance of, of actually like the, the chief joy, like the,
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the Augustan language or Augustinian language of like
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God, our hearts are empty until they find themselves in thee.
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That, that like to me is a central part of it.
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But, but we've usually got something in mind that we're
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like, oh, when I can get that, then, then I'll be happy.
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And of course, when you get the thing, you never really are like
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the, the silly example I've used is like I, I drive the car that
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for years was my dream car. Like it's a Land Rover.
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It's thirteen years old, it looks like newer than it is.
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It drives great. I always wanted one ever since I
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first saw them. And now I'm like, like that car.
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I'd like that car would like, like, it's so, so transient.
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Yeah, like you so quickly move on to the next thing.
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I'm not over my car yet. That's awesome.
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I know you're not but just you know.
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But you could be persuaded, perhaps.
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Like, you know, well, yeah, I probably will never get one
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again, but that's because I'm over the payment on this car.
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But yeah, like, absolutely. There's a catch 22 at every
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there, at every corner, every step up the red ladder.
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You're like, Oh yeah, I've arrived, but there's this now
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and. And so our temptation is to
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think, well, you will look at somebody else and say, well,
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they've arrived, if I could just get there.
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So the steps are not actually always things that they're
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sometimes people we see living life.
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And you think? Oh, imagine what that life might
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be, might be to live. And yet we we actually like when
18:07
we when we hear from them, they have the same problem.
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I mean, like a a good example in modern life is Tom Brady.
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Like, if there was ever a guy that lived the American Dream,
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like you look at him and he like, OK, like this this skinny
18:23
kid out of college that nobody wants to draft becomes the
18:26
greatest quarterback of all time.
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He wins and he wins and he wins. And then he goes to another team
18:32
and he wins some more. And he has this opportunity at
18:35
44 years old, which is older than anybody else has played NFL
18:40
quarterbacks. It's relatively healthy, all
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these things. And he has this opportunity to
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ride off into the sunset, NFL championship in hand, Beautiful
18:50
wife, beautiful kids. And he does for a moment and
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then he says, no, one more year and, and, and everything falls
19:01
apart. Like, I don't know the state of
19:03
their relationship, but they're divorced now.
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And there's the complexity and he's trying to date somebody new
19:08
and he's but but, but you're like, Oh my goodness.
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Like if The thing is to do loads of stuff and then retire with
19:15
enough wealth to live out your days with all the laurels that
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you get to rest on. And that's life like Tom Brady
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should have should have ridden off happier than happier than
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anyone else. And yet he's like no one more
19:28
shot. And, and and of course it goes
19:31
nowhere. And but it's almost like we
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can't, we can't accept that. We can't accept that, you know,
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the the the the something. Yeah.
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And there's like a for those who can sort of like let go of the
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idea that the next step's going to be the thing, Interestingly,
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that's the moment they can begin to appreciate the little things
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that they do have. I don't know when I'm in a
20:05
healthiest. When I might at my healthiest
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state is when I appreciate the the smallest things.
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Like, I remember one of the seasons of my life where I was
20:18
like the most spiritually healthy and one of my my, like I
20:26
would tease with my wife that if I die in a car crash, it's
20:31
because I was overwhelmed by the goodness of a sunset.
20:34
Yes, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not because I was like
20:38
trying to overwork or like text or something while I was
20:41
driving. It was because I literally would
20:44
be moved to tears by a sunset. You love it now.
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That's the good stuff. Now, staying there is way harder
20:53
than than it sounds, but or just, I don't know.
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Well, there's a reason. Well, there's a reason we have a
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saying. Take time to smell the roses,
21:04
because it turns out smelling roses is a pretty awesome part
21:07
of life. Like actually like we're just,
21:10
I'm just going to stop and I'm not going to worry about the
21:14
next big thing. This is a moment that that's,
21:17
that that's in. It's frequent, but it's
21:19
transient. You lose it really quick.
21:23
Those tight, like we have irises in our front yard and irises let
21:27
off this beautiful scent. So in spring, before they bloom,
21:31
if you've got lots of them, you, you'll go outside early in the
21:34
morning or late at night and you and you're just sitting.
21:38
Oh my goodness, this is wonderful.
21:41
Yeah. Like all of your synapses are
21:43
just firing because it's just fabulous.
21:49
And so you actually have to practice what it is to say.
21:52
I'm not rushing to anything. Yeah.
21:54
And, and, and so I think I think that like that, you're right,
21:59
those little things seem to make up.
22:02
OK, so then what is it biblically or theologically that
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what is it about human brokenness that drives us to
22:13
disbelieve that that's possible on a regular basis and then
22:18
instead invest our lives in the next step up the ladder?
22:23
So sorry, I think my suspicion is it's probably some of its
22:30
provision. It's like, I'm going to take
22:32
care of me. I don't want God to have to do
22:35
it. I don't want to have to trust
22:37
that God will do it. So I'm, I'm going to make sure
22:40
I'm OK. I'm going to make sure I got
22:42
plenty saved up. It's like the in Jesus stories,
22:46
it's the, the guy that's got to build bonds and bigger bonds.
22:49
So we'll always have enough. Yeah.
22:51
And, and I think that was my like, weird goal for a while.
22:54
I'm like, I'm just going to keep going to keep trying to save so
22:59
I can, you know, never be touched.
23:01
I kind of talked about that a little bit more the week, the
23:04
week before, Like I think the sum, some may, some may be late
23:11
in desire that we would be remembered that we would mean
23:14
something. And, and, and there's I don't
23:18
think there's anything bad with those desires to achieve
23:21
something. But but quite often we want to
23:24
hold on to those moments. And so once you've had it, it's
23:26
an addictive nature. It's like I've got to keep
23:28
coming back to more of it. Yeah.
23:34
So, so I think there's, there's a lot in play there.
23:36
I'm, I'm also curious as to what Jesus parable about the sower
23:42
and the seed tells us. So, so like when Jesus says, you
23:51
know, there's a, there's a farmer who goes out to throw
23:53
seed and some of it falls on the rocks and, and the birds come
23:58
and eat it. Some of it falls in the Stony
24:01
ground and it springs up. He's talking about like the, the
24:03
good news at work in our lives. And it springs up quickly and
24:08
then dies quickly with the heat of the sun.
24:11
And then some of it gets entangled in the weeds of, of
24:16
this world. And, and the weeds and the, the
24:20
thorns and the thistles that grow up around it, choke it.
24:25
So somewhere the suggestion is there's a way of this world,
24:31
there's a way that it operates that has a, has a way of choking
24:36
life with God. So there's almost like this,
24:41
like I'm going to use this language, I guess, carefully.
24:49
Like Paul will talk about like powers of the air and stuff like
24:51
that. There's also this like drive
24:55
within us that maybe isn't just about us, but maybe it's about
25:00
some greater thing going on that's designed to keep us from
25:04
experiencing life with God truly.
25:07
Like it's not just about an internal process.
25:11
There's a whole bunch of external factors going on as
25:14
well. CS Lewis uses this language
25:17
about like the danger of your 30s and 40s.
25:20
And I think he uses, uses it especially around guys who tend
25:26
to get more of their success and, and sense of purpose in
25:30
what they do. Actually, there was, there was a
25:32
theory that that I, I kind of developed through a bunch of
25:36
reading a few years ago. And it was that, that when you
25:42
read the garden story, man is made from the dirt and he often
25:46
gets his value from the work that he does.
25:49
And woman is made from man and women quite often get their
25:52
value from the relationships they're in.
25:55
And I was like, OK, that's, that's just quite interesting
25:57
when you see that symmetry in play.
26:00
Interesting. Yeah, and so CS Lewis said, like
26:03
the the the danger of your 30s and 40s is you start to feel
26:07
like you're finding your place in the world.
26:10
And he says, but actually the world is finding its place in
26:13
you. Yeah.
26:16
So, so, so I think some of it's like it's, it's, it's actually
26:19
not just our processes that that are affecting our decisions.
26:24
There's some other pull. So, so I feel like out of all
26:31
the the days or all of the subjects we've dealt with in the
26:36
series so far, shame it. Like we have just give a few
26:45
examples and suddenly people can feel it and acknowledge it.
26:49
Fear everyone can kind of feel it and acknowledge it and
26:54
ambition it. It's so positively looked at by
27:02
our culture and it's driven by such subtle, nuanced emotions.
27:10
It's all it's almost way harder to talk about.
27:14
So, so put your finger on like, why are we doing this thing?
27:18
Like if you were to ask, ask someone along the street, you
27:23
know, this would be a fun experiment.
27:25
Ask someone along the street like what's the good life?
27:31
And they might give you the American dream as their first
27:34
answer. And then you grill them a little
27:36
bit like, so you believe like that really money can actually
27:41
make you happy. I suspect even even a non person
27:45
who doesn't follow Jesus, they might actually be like, well,
27:50
no, like it's also relationships.
27:52
Like they probably know with their brain consciously that
27:57
it's got to be more than just money or more than just a raise.
28:04
They know that it has to be a diverse set of value things in
28:09
place that makes a holistic happy life.
28:15
But then if you look at the way they're living, they're they may
28:19
function as if this is the only thing that's going to ever make
28:22
me happy. Yeah, and I like.
28:24
And then if you ask them what they would give for 15 minutes
28:27
of fame, it's probably most of the stuff that they have that
28:30
they value like. Like I think it's surprising
28:33
what people would give to standing in the spotlight.
28:36
I think I think the the maybe the way I would say we
28:38
understand it is, is, is through things like movies.
28:42
Have you seen the new Bob Dylan movie A complete unknown?
28:46
It's Timothy Chalamet plays Bob Dylan and and it starts off from
28:50
like he's just this kid hitching a ride in a truck and he wants
28:54
to go meet his hero who's oh man, Guthrie.
28:59
What's his first name? Can't remember, but but he, he
29:04
makes his way all the way to, to, to New York and ends up like
29:09
in his hotel in, in his hospital room playing a song because
29:14
because Guthrie's dying. And they'll the guys, the the
29:18
two guys that are visiting that happened to hear it like, oh,
29:21
it's brilliant. And so they start introducing
29:24
him around and you watch as like, success just finds him.
29:29
Yeah, and. As he starts like being this
29:32
like ethereal figure, like the, the, the nuclear missile crisis
29:37
is happening and like people are just desperately trying to get
29:40
out of New York. It's full of panic.
29:43
And Dylan's in this like club playing like he he sung what's
29:49
it called about? Like the the the masters of war
29:53
song. And he's just this, like,
29:55
rebellious character. Yeah.
29:57
That you just like, oh, man. Like, I feel that like, like
30:02
everybody wants a piece of him. Like, he's the thing that's
30:05
happening. Like Johnny Cash, he's writing
30:08
him letters. Like Joan.
30:12
Oh, no, it's not Joan. One of the female musicians of
30:17
the day. She she's like, just just
30:19
enthralled by him. And.
30:22
And so you feel like in those sorts of things, you feel what
30:25
it is to be the hero. You know, you feel like when you
30:29
see like movies like Top Gun and stuff like that, where these
30:32
guys like do these things, mission, like all those things
30:35
pull us towards glory and that sense of or.
30:39
Athletics in general, you watch professional sports and you're
30:41
like, oh this, like this. That's what a human being looks
30:46
like when they give all of themselves to a craft and arrive
30:50
a rise to the pinnacle of their of their fields.
30:54
Yes, fill in the blank. And you and you, you sense that
30:57
they're part of something that you wish you were part of as a
31:01
fan. You're watching on the outside
31:03
and it's kind of your thing, but it's mostly their thing, yeah.
31:08
And you live vicariously through these, these different people
31:14
that you observe who were in the fraction of a fraction of a
31:18
fraction of percent of their field.
31:21
And you think if only I could be in that place, then I will have
31:25
arrived. And so so some of the antidote
31:29
comes through through a surrender of those things.
31:35
Do you know who Patrick Glencione is?
31:38
Yeah. Patrick Glencione tells the
31:41
story about his own life Like business guru, companies are
31:48
paying him hundreds of thousands of dollars to turn up for a.
31:51
Day. He's making money that's like
31:53
equivalent to what some athletes are making and stuff.
31:56
Like that, he's. Like the guy that you want to
31:58
call and, and he sat in the Catholic Church that he goes to
32:06
one day and the, the past is preaching on that, that parable
32:12
about the farmer and the seeds and all, the, all, all his life
32:16
he's had this understanding of like, well, like the first, the,
32:19
the first one he mentions is the worst.
32:21
And then the second one's a little better and the third
32:23
one's better than that. And then the 4th 1's the best.
32:26
And he's like, well, at least I'm like 3 steps up.
32:28
That's pretty good. And, and he, he suddenly hears
32:31
it in the way that Jesus tells it.
32:32
And he's like, Oh, no, there's only one good type of seed.
32:36
The rest are all equally as bad. They're all problematic.
32:41
Yeah. And, and he says in that moment,
32:43
he says, God, I want to be the good soil.
32:46
And he said Jesus said to him in this Catholic Church that he
32:50
attends. Are you sure?
32:52
And he's like, yeah. And he said for 12 years, I lost
32:57
all joy in all of my success. Like everything disappeared.
33:01
No joy in my houses, my kids, my wife, my business gone, like
33:08
everything presented. Yeah, the only thing I could
33:12
find joy in was in who God was to me.
33:17
And he said slowly after 12 years, the joy has come back for
33:21
those other things. But he had to find this
33:24
foundation stone of his life, which was joy only in the good
33:29
news of Jesus and life in God. So you kind of like this is a
33:35
guy who like exempt like most of us.
33:38
And now like in terms of people listening, people like even that
33:43
come South were beyond the days of professional athlete.
33:47
Those ships sailed. Those ships sailed long ago.
33:52
No. Like.
33:53
Occasionally. I'll go play golf and I hear a
33:56
shot and I'll be like, oh, man, I could do this.
33:59
Like, And then the next 10 shots are off.
34:05
Like that one lucky shot wasn't cutting it.
34:07
And then you play with guys that are better than you and they're
34:10
able to move the ball like 5 feet in the air in a particular
34:15
direction. And you're like, wait, you did
34:16
that on purpose. Yeah.
34:18
And you realize just how far you are.
34:19
So. So the ship has sailed on those
34:21
things. Yeah.
34:23
But. But we still got that sense of
34:24
like, oh, I could build the business till it mattered.
34:29
I I. I could.
34:30
I could achieve in in some particular way.
34:32
I could write the book. I could you know.
34:34
Yeah, and by the way, it's no different for anyone who's in
34:37
ministry. No.
34:39
Like just for you out there, if you're not a staff person at a
34:43
church, like this is one of the reasons why churches, churches
34:48
no different like it in the sense that in an unhealthy
34:52
place, a pastor or a staff can still pursue the next thing.
34:56
Are we the coolest church in town?
34:57
Are we the fastest growing church in town?
35:00
Are we do we have the deepest souls of people in out of the
35:06
churches? I mean, it can be a toxic thing
35:08
that even weasels its way into into the local church.
35:12
And so it's it's an inherently difficult thing to battle
35:16
against as as human beings. Yeah.
35:20
Are we even to the point of like, as a, as a minor note
35:23
example of that, Like I can sit there with like a sermon and I
35:29
can be faced with a couple of choices.
35:31
Like do I want to like just start writing so I can have
35:36
something that's like, like I, I've, I think I've talked to you
35:40
before about the idea that my temptation is to fall in love
35:43
with the idea. Like I, like, I want an idea
35:49
feels novel and I can fall in love with the idea pretty quick.
35:53
So like my, my, my temptation will be we'll just get to work,
35:58
like just start writing or I can spend time lifting it before God
36:03
saying like, what, what do you have for people here?
36:05
What's, what's the heartbeat behind it?
36:09
And it's a lot easier to do the first one to start to write
36:15
because that's in my mind what people.
36:19
Yeah, but but if I want it to be transformative in the lives of
36:24
people in the community, then the second one is far more
36:27
valuable. So, so I, I, I think there's
36:31
this like weird little ways where, where a sense of like
36:36
wanting to, to, to be seen, to have all the answers, wanting to
36:40
be seen to, to, you know, have it all together also speaks to
36:45
that sense of ambition. Like we don't like
36:47
vulnerability. I, I want people to think I'm
36:51
like, like, well prayed, well read, well thought through.
36:56
Like I, I, I want all of those things because to me that's what
37:01
I saw in the people I admired. And, and so I'm like, I, I want,
37:06
I want people to see the same in me.
37:10
So, all right, you know, I should probably double check
37:14
that we don't have any questions because I I didn't, I don't
37:16
think we do. But before my battery dies on my
37:19
laptop, I'll just double check. Don't we need those options?
37:23
There we go. No, we don't believe it or not.
37:30
So here's here's a challenge that I have with this whole
37:33
framework of, of everything we've been talking about.
37:38
And it's that OK, so God made us into creatures that just the
37:47
only place we can truly find happiness is in him is that is
37:55
like, what's that say about him, like about God's character?
38:00
Where is he that needy that he would like make these creatures
38:05
that just can't be happy anywhere else?
38:08
Is that fair of him? Like to create such beautiful
38:11
things in the world and say, be like they're not going to
38:14
satisfy unless you like, those are just stepping stones to me.
38:20
And like, set aside all this amazing beauty that I created in
38:24
the world and relationships and experiences and food and, and
38:29
you know, the sense of meaning and identity and purpose and all
38:32
this stuff that is in the world. Because really none of it
38:37
matters. It's just the spiritual
38:38
realities that matter the most in your relationship with me.
38:41
Like, it just, it feels a little self-serving of God.
38:47
How is that not a problem? Well, well, I, I don't think
38:54
actually what we're saying is there's no purpose to anything
38:58
you do. I think there's great purpose to
39:02
it, but relationship comes first.
39:05
So, so I think God is a relational being.
39:07
It seems like God is able to exist in relationship, you know,
39:14
from time and told and and he's able to create out of
39:20
relationships. So I, I guess like it seems like
39:24
if relationships are everything to God, God can exist in a three
39:29
but one relationship. Which is it?
39:32
It it it takes more commitment, I think than a two person, two
39:38
way relationship. Then I think his longing is for
39:45
us to experience relationship in the same way.
39:48
And so the universe is like the, the, the, the unspoken rule of
39:54
the universe is that that that relationship Trump's everything.
40:00
And so. The doing of things, which
40:06
matters. Like God gives people things to
40:09
do things. Things matter.
40:12
Like you can create things that matter.
40:14
It's not that creation's bad, but the it's when the thing that
40:20
you're doing takes precedence over everything that it actually
40:23
comes at the cost of relationships.
40:26
So it's more about a right ordering of.
40:29
It seems that way, yeah. Priorities.
40:32
Yeah, I mean, it seems it, it seems like God is willing to to
40:36
at times like go to surprising lengths for relationship over
40:42
over achievement that that that he's longing is for us to want
40:48
to be with him. Yeah, yeah, I, I, I remember, I,
40:58
I probably have talked about this in the show before, but I
41:00
remember as counselor laying out this framework that was really
41:04
fascinating to me about like even human relationships are a,
41:10
a bridge to deeper relationship with God.
41:14
And then and then the fruit of those human relationships.
41:17
Let me explain. So like for example marriage,
41:20
usually you start a relationship with someone because they make
41:24
you feel awesome, they like you, they think you're beautiful or
41:29
good looking. That's how we do that.
41:31
I was just talking to someone about this.
41:32
That's at least that's how we've done them for the last couple of
41:34
100. Years yeah yeah I'll give a
41:36
second example that's different that that applies more
41:39
universally but like they make you feel good they tell you
41:42
you're cool they tell you you're smart whatever it is and so it
41:47
starts in a lot of ways a lot of romantic relationships start
41:50
from this fairly like they. I want to be around this person
41:55
because they make me feel awesome and I don't often feel
42:01
awesome, so yay for me. But then, as time goes on, those
42:08
potentially more shallow reasons why you're in the relationship
42:11
start to strip away. They no longer think you walk on
42:14
water 'cause they see that you can't.
42:16
'Cause they saw you trying to cook an egg and you were
42:19
terrible at it like in. Or, or you put on a few pounds
42:23
in those first few years of marriage and you're not as
42:25
attractive as you thought you were.
42:27
And they like they see your warts and wounds.
42:29
They they see you have a you have a temper tantrum and act
42:33
like a 2 year old and suddenly like the the luster you know is
42:38
is gone. That's so lamentations.
42:40
I know gold has lost its luster. Yeah.
42:43
And so like but gradually over time, so you're not getting as
42:49
much out of the relationship. Instead you're having to more
42:52
like self sacrificially give and replace the identity you got
42:59
from them with the identity you get in Christ.
43:02
So this counselor said, I think it's a, it's a, it's a very
43:05
gentle kindness of God to wean you off of the relationships of
43:09
this world and back onto a relationship with me, with him
43:14
who met, who saw all of the words before the relationship
43:20
and loved you anyway unconditionally.
43:23
Well, that's, that's the beauty of like, in some ways, like, and
43:28
this is like, I'm, I'm saying this somewhat tongue in cheek.
43:31
There's, there's like the humor around arranged marriages that
43:36
don't take into account how someone looks, but simply are
43:40
around commitment and family structures.
43:43
In, in The Simpsons, the one of the characters, APU is Indian
43:48
and his mum writes to him and says like, oh, it's time for
43:51
your arranged marriage. And he's like super annoyed
43:53
because he wants to meet a woman like the American way and fall
43:57
in love. So he writes back to his mom and
43:59
he's like, but mom, don't you know that one in every 47
44:02
arranged marriages ends in divorce?
44:04
And obviously, like the joke, it's like it's way less than it
44:10
is when it's out of romance and attraction and all those
44:13
different things because they actually begin with simple
44:17
commitment. This is what we do.
44:20
This is this is a bond that can't just be easily broken.
44:24
Yeah. And so in some ways like those
44:27
marriages that are far more reflective, like a 1st century
44:30
Jewish marriage. Yeah.
44:31
Which was quite pragmatic. Very.
44:36
You know, actually like. It may have a higher ceiling of
44:40
fulfilment in the long run. Potentially, I mean, we have to
44:43
get to that point. Totally.
44:46
So like his point was interestingly, if you can, if in
44:51
a human relationship, you can replace your idea, instead of
44:55
getting your identity from the other person, you get your
44:59
identity from Christ. The ironic and glorious twist at
45:04
the end of a human relationship story is that God gives you the
45:08
joy of the human relationship. Yeah.
45:11
If you cannot be, worship it. Yeah.
45:14
And then the same gift happens in parenting.
45:17
Yeah, when when the child is born, they need you for
45:21
everything. They can't survive.
45:23
You feed them like you are God, like you are this child's entire
45:28
world. And then they become two and
45:30
they're like, no, I want to decide what I wear.
45:33
And then they get older and older and older and older and
45:35
eventually they like don't need you anymore.
45:38
And so like you're no longer God to them.
45:41
And there's such a huge loss of identity in like, who you are.
45:46
But then if you can let them go and hold them open handedly,
45:49
sometimes the joy comes back at you.
45:53
And maybe that's an illustration of how a lot of these desires
45:57
can be properly ordered. It's not wrong to be wealthy.
46:00
It's not wrong to have some athletic success or whatever.
46:04
But if it becomes an ultimate thing, it actually sudden
46:07
somehow becomes emptied satisfaction.
46:11
I do think you're right that like sense of giving away the
46:14
relationship and allowing it to come back as a shift from
46:18
parenting to parenting peers. Like in some ways, like the, the
46:25
relationship becomes an equality relationship that shape
46:30
differently. I, I had never realized the cost
46:35
of marriage from one perspective, from a parenting
46:39
perspective until I got married. And because we got married in
46:43
America and then moved to England and Laura was 19 at the
46:47
time we got married and, and her parents dropped me off at the
46:51
airport. And, and like, I mean, now, like
46:55
for perspective, like Elena, my oldest is like 6 years younger
46:59
than Laura was when she got married.
47:01
It's not much time. And like we're, we're about to
47:05
take our bags and go off to the airport and he throws his arms
47:08
around me and he just whispers in my ear, take care of my
47:12
little girl. And I'm like, Oh my goodness,
47:16
like this is what this means. This is like childhood that
47:21
ended way quicker than was expected.
47:24
Like this was like all the expectation of like holidays at
47:28
home from college, just just suddenly a different now.
47:35
But but a sense of like, OK, I'm going to trust this.
47:40
And we lived in, in, in the UK for nearly three years and then
47:43
we moved back to the States. Yeah.
47:47
And, and we actually lived with them for a few months.
47:49
And you have kids and now they have the joy of grandkids and
47:51
like. On like, but but like that's
47:54
like the trust of like, OK, this relief for this relationship to
47:58
to maintain. I have trust somewhere that that
48:02
it can't be about me. Like someone once said, our
48:05
biggest risk with our kids is that we turn them into side
48:09
characters in our grand story. Yeah, or like, or you cling to
48:13
someone or something so tight that you strangle it to death.
48:17
Yeah, totally. The joy of it.
48:19
Like you imagine like a little kid who finds a bug and they
48:24
kill the bug because they're so excited about it.
48:27
It's like that's how the things of this world function.
48:30
Unless you hold them with open hands and don't control them,
48:36
they die. If.
48:37
You let it go, it might come back, but if you try to hold on
48:40
to it, you'll lose it forever. Kind of.
48:42
Yeah. And And it seems like God does
48:45
that with us surprisingly often. Yeah.
48:48
The, the language of the prodigal son is exactly that
48:52
story, like God's capacity to say, OK, this is what you want.
48:59
Yep. I'm going to wait.
49:01
Like, without, like the rancor that we often place on God in
49:05
those moments. Like the story of the prodigal
49:07
son. He's not one of, of a, a father
49:10
who sits like going over his old grievances and anger.
49:17
Like actually, surprisingly, that the father never, never
49:21
shows anger at any point during the story.
49:26
Like like some of the language around Lamentations that people
49:28
have used, because that's on my mind right now, is that we read
49:32
Lamentations at times as God's like vitriolic, like anger out
49:37
of nowhere, like just like casually aimed like scatter gun
49:43
approach to discipline. Whereas actually it's like well
49:47
planned discipline that's designed with purpose.
49:51
It's justice. Yeah.
49:52
And it's a little bit of the, this is what you asked for,
49:57
sure. And now that you've pursued that
50:00
path and it was empty at the end of the path, you know, what's
50:05
the safe place to come? Like the like the prodigal son
50:08
stories, like even in my father's house, the servants eat
50:11
better than this. Like clearly that was the wrong
50:14
move. And now, now the son knows for
50:19
sure that the safer, more beautiful place was to be in
50:22
relationship with the father. Yeah, yeah.
50:24
And, and they're the like, the fascinating tension between
50:26
those two sons is like the one son who can come and like find
50:32
his place in his father and, and see the emptiness of the things
50:38
he's poured his life into, like the the and the other son who
50:42
hasn't and almost holds the like, oh, I could have done all
50:47
this stuff and it would have been awesome, but I chose it
50:50
chose not to because of you. He almost has like a a more
50:54
warped picture of the world for having not being been in it in
50:59
this weird way because he still believes there's like lots of
51:03
joy in that. He's like, I didn't do that.
51:06
I kind of would like to, but I didn't because of you.
51:10
Where the youngest son is just simply not.
51:12
This is where I want to be. Yeah.
51:14
So one more question. We have just a couple of minutes
51:17
left. I've been haunted by a statement
51:21
that I may have talked about on the show in the past, but I
51:24
think it really is relevant to ponder at this moment, A
51:28
statement that one of our former staff members made to me.
51:31
Well, we're, we're talking about like surrender and trusting God
51:37
and all of these sorts of things.
51:39
And she asked is, is Yvonne Beal?
51:41
She asked this. She just made this casual
51:43
passing statement. What's the difference between
51:46
surrender and negligence? And the reason it haunted me was
51:52
because I was in an in a time in my life where I was really burnt
51:57
out. And the idea of surrender was
52:00
very intoxicating to me because it meant I would be able to stop
52:05
trying. But it's not the same.
52:12
Like I think intuitively we know that like a healthy life in
52:15
God's Kingdom and God's presence doesn't mean we don't do
52:19
anything anymore. It it doesn't mean you like
52:23
Alex's message on Sunday, doesn't mean you sell your
52:26
business because ultimate, like business success, is empty.
52:29
It doesn't mean you get rid of all of your relationships
52:33
because ultimately they could be empty.
52:35
It doesn't mean you like don't become a professional athlete
52:39
because it's not going to be fulfilling ultimately.
52:42
So how do we continue to make steps towards the future while
52:47
not holding them strongly? In other words, how do we not be
52:52
negligent but also stay surrendered?
52:55
It seems like an oxymoron. Yeah, I like that.
52:59
I like that question. So it's a very Yvonne question.
53:03
It is. Casual genius.
53:05
I like it like if if that I can't use this example is in my
53:14
notes. I'm not sure.
53:16
I'm not sure I actually used it like like the the another casual
53:21
genius, Frederick Beekner talked about finding your falling in
53:24
like your great longings or or or.
53:28
I think you used it. And the world's great needs,
53:33
yeah. So so you kind of like because
53:35
that like to to get that. Or maybe that's in this coming
53:38
week that you mentioned it. I feel like we talked, we
53:41
definitely talked about in the daily devotion.
53:42
Anyway, sorry, carry on. I.
53:43
Think it was the week before. I don't want to derail your
53:45
answer. Like that that it seems like
53:48
that to do that requires both knowing yourself but also
53:53
knowing like from God's perspective, where the
53:56
brokenness of the world is. So it's almost it almost like
53:58
pulls you back to relationship first.
54:03
So it's it's a doing and you're right or or on Yvonne's right in
54:11
terms of like the the the, I guess even sinfulness of
54:16
negligence, like we're not aid for nothing.
54:21
Yeah, before the wall, the fall, we worked.
54:23
Yeah, but but but to see that like sense of like, OK, God,
54:27
like these are all the things I love.
54:29
How can you out of like who you are, give that purpose for this
54:34
world? Like it almost is a relational
54:37
question. It's a relational pondering that
54:39
you can't you can't figure out the answer to by yourself.
54:45
And so I think surrender is, is maybe a posture that you hold
54:52
with the idea that God gives you purpose at some point, not a a a
54:57
stopping doing anything with a plan of like this being my
55:01
permanent condition. I just don't have to.
55:03
I don't have to process anything.
55:05
I don't have to think about anything like it's like just.
55:07
Sit in my room and and read my Bible and meditate on the
55:11
surrender. Is actually an active posture,
55:15
right? It's not.
55:16
It's not a passive posture like negligence is passive.
55:21
We're just like, disengaged. Like God gave me these gifts,
55:24
I'm not going to use them because I'm surrendered to.
55:26
Jesus. Yeah, yeah.
55:27
Where where is like, so, so like, like I'm going to hide in
55:30
a cave and if anyone ever comes and finds me and asks me to use
55:33
my gift for something, I'll know that was God.
55:35
Because like, you know, I've been in a cave on Mars with my
55:40
fingers in my ears and my eyes closed.
55:42
And like everything I can do to get away from any kind of
55:46
involvement. Whereas surrender is, it seems
55:49
like it's a constant engagement with God, a constant.
55:52
Like what do you have for me? Yeah.
55:57
And how can I be a part of this Kingdom story?
56:01
So. So negligence seems like it
56:02
turns its back on God, whereas surrender seems like it turns
56:08
actively towards God. Yeah.
56:11
And actually, I think I'll go back and since since I'm
56:15
reminded of my that today was supposed to be my last class
56:18
period at seminary, and since since I'm not going to be in
56:21
class anymore, I got to talk about it as much as I can while
56:23
I can. But this lot, this class, one of
56:26
the things we talked about is how to be human.
56:31
One of the things that it means to be human is to be a creature
56:34
that cannot generate their own identities.
56:38
And a lot of what we're talking about when it comes to climbing
56:41
the ladder or whatever, it's about finding purpose and
56:44
meaning in life, like find yourself, follow your dream.
56:51
We're creatures not made to do that.
56:54
That's an oxymoron actually, when it when it comes to
56:57
actually being a healthy human being.
57:00
Instead, we're creatures designed to receive identity, to
57:06
be told who we are. And the illustration that one of
57:10
the illustrations we used in class was this idea that like,
57:13
if you're the physician or you're, you're doing an autopsy
57:17
and trying to figure out like, what is this human creature?
57:20
You can't be the physician and the cadaver on the table at the
57:25
same time to to in order to like to put a diagnostic on what is
57:31
this thing? You can't be the observer and
57:33
the observed. And so the only way you can know
57:37
what is it mean to be human is if for God from outside the
57:41
system to tell you what it means.
57:42
And so that's to get back to what you were just saying it.
57:46
It's it's what you're exactly what you're saying.
57:49
It's saying, God, who am I and what am I supposed to do today?
57:54
And you tell me. And then suddenly it's infused
57:57
with like power on high that gives it satisfaction and
58:01
purpose and joy and hope and life again.
58:04
Whereas if I get to decide, it's empty and dissatisfying and
58:09
whatever. It reminds When we did the
58:11
Sermon on the Mount series, we talked about the Dallas Willard
58:15
idea that that following Jesus, it is to trust that Jesus is
58:20
wiser than I am. So like often when we come and
58:25
critique Jesus, we actually suspect that we're wiser than he
58:29
is. So we're like, so like actually
58:31
choosing A rabbi to follow in the ancient world is to say, I'm
58:34
going to listen to this person as my source of wisdom.
58:37
Whereas we're like when Jesus can't be right about that.
58:41
Can he? Because I disagree.
58:42
Yeah. Yeah.
58:43
And so, so like that, it's the same principle, like when we
58:46
think we can make observations as to who we are that are
58:50
greater than the observation God can make.
58:53
Yeah. So I think, yeah, you're right.
58:55
It it requires a voice in that that that surrenders A posture
58:59
that says, OK, is it time yet? Is it time yet?
59:03
Yeah, and, and and what was I made for?
59:05
Yeah, yeah. And then rather than answering
59:09
the question for yourself, asking the God who made you,
59:12
it's like a lawn mower saying what was I made for?
59:15
Maybe I'm a maybe I was made to like, I don't know, lay bricks
59:21
and the lawn mower is dissatisfied with laying bricks.
59:24
So, so it reminds me of this, like it reminds me of this
59:29
thought that I wanted to make sure we covered today because I
59:31
think, you know, when I was doing the staircase thing, I'm
59:35
like, OK, this is very like very concrete, but also very, it
59:44
implies that the, that there's this instant of like opening
59:49
this thing and finding it to be empty.
59:51
And that's like based on a linear time and all sorts of
59:55
things. Here's my suspicion with, with,
59:59
with, with our ambition for like how the world might be shaped
1:00:03
and what our lives might look like.
1:00:06
I actually think there's probably a load of people that
1:00:09
might hear that and say, Oh yeah, but like, right now,
1:00:12
loving it. Everything's going great, like
1:00:15
work, I'm killing it. Like the the business is flying,
1:00:19
like my role is growing, like people think I'm doing a great
1:00:23
job, the money is coming in and like life is good.
1:00:27
And yeah, I just haven't experienced that.
1:00:29
That's not been my experience of the.
1:00:31
World I got to the step, open the box, opening some full of
1:00:34
awesome. Right now it's full of life, you
1:00:35
know, full of awesome. So it's a great way of saying
1:00:37
it. Everything is awesome.
1:00:42
And what I've seen time and time again is the, the awareness of
1:00:45
the emptiness is a later point in life.
1:00:49
It's like 50s and 60s that there's a, a, a something about
1:00:56
youthfulness. And I'm going to use
1:00:58
youthfulness to cover like more of a, a Middle Eastern idea of
1:01:03
like 20s and 30s and even 40s of like couldn't get any better.
1:01:10
Yeah. And it's like the it's it's
1:01:12
actually discovered in the kids growing up and moving away and
1:01:17
the like the Korea starting to hit like harder periods.
1:01:21
It's the guy coming in who's smarter and younger and quicker
1:01:25
on the drawer than you are. It's the gunfighter that like
1:01:28
used to be the fastest in town and he's no longer quite as
1:01:32
quick as he used to be. It's all of those things.
1:01:35
It's the fading of energy and the strength that isn't quite
1:01:38
what it was. It's all of the ways that we, we
1:01:41
can wake up and think, I just don't have what I had 20 years
1:01:46
ago. So, so, so I, I think it's, it
1:01:49
goes back to what we were just talking about.
1:01:51
Like you either get to trust your current experience of the
1:01:55
world, or you get to to trust like tons of wisdom from
1:02:02
scriptures and all sorts of other environments that suggest,
1:02:06
no, you hit this place at some point where if all you've got is
1:02:12
like what you've done and are doing, it's not going to give
1:02:16
you what you hope. And it will come for you at some
1:02:20
point. It may not be today, but at some
1:02:22
point you're going to realise actually the things that you
1:02:25
thought were so awesome are actually kind of empty.
1:02:29
Yeah, so like you've referenced this book multiple times, but
1:02:31
from strength to strength, if you want to demystify the idea
1:02:35
that it's going to last forever, then just read chapter 1.
1:02:38
It will very much depress you. Or just like read some Wendell
1:02:43
Berry. Like Hannah Coulter is this
1:02:46
book. If you've ever read Wendell
1:02:48
Berry, like he they're like slow moving novels, but like Hannah
1:02:54
Coulter's this beautiful story, but it's just an average
1:02:58
everyday kind of a person in this small town and her story
1:03:03
and like the end of the story, a little bit of a spoiler at the
1:03:09
end of a. The story is so mundane and
1:03:13
there's sorrow because half of her kids don't visit her
1:03:16
anymore. And there's like.
1:03:18
But then she has like this deep, beautiful soul at the same time
1:03:24
where it's mixed with sadness and like it's unbeautifully
1:03:29
underwhelming. Yeah, Yeah.
1:03:31
And something in your soul says that's devastating.
1:03:34
And something else in your soul says, Yep, that's how it.
1:03:36
Is another one would be a kazoo Ishiguru, the end of the remains
1:03:41
of the day. It's like this slow paced thing
1:03:44
of this guy that has this life that he feels is important.
1:03:47
He's a Butler in this old house in the midst of World War 2 and
1:03:52
the the the preceding years and even the aftermath.
1:03:55
And he feels like he's like the pinnacle of like he's even makes
1:04:00
reference like I haven't seen the world because the whole
1:04:02
world regularly came to this house.
1:04:05
And then you see him in the years as the house diminishes,
1:04:08
as the stories emerge of like who the owner was and how he was
1:04:12
like complicit in Hitler's rise. And and like the staff they
1:04:17
reduced down. And he go, he reaches out to a
1:04:19
past staff member where he thinks there might be like
1:04:22
potential for love. And it's actually a no.
1:04:24
And it's almost this like, and in the movie version, you catch
1:04:28
glimpses, glimpses of him at the end just kind of staring blankly
1:04:33
out of windows and like. Yeah, we'll read East of Eden or
1:04:36
The Grapes of Wrath are like Life is a complicated mess, and
1:04:42
unless you can find meaning in something bigger and more
1:04:45
beautiful than than some of the realities that are just smashed
1:04:51
upon us as creatures, yeah, good luck because it eventually comes
1:04:56
for everyone. Indeed.
1:04:59
Wow. On a lighter note, having said
1:05:02
all that, yeah, one of the questions I got from people
1:05:05
afterwards around the Arthur Brooks story, from strength to
1:05:08
strength, is who's the guy on the plane?
1:05:11
We don't know. He don't.
1:05:12
We don't know, but there's whole, like, Internet Reddit
1:05:15
chats based on, like, guesses as to who it might be.
1:05:19
Yeah. Now, he didn't tell you for a
1:05:21
reason. Yeah.
1:05:22
Like, one of the the favorite guesses is Buzz Aldrin.
1:05:27
But but like, yeah, the mystery is like just like, oh, I got
1:05:31
wonder. Is it a president?
1:05:33
Is it like an astronaut? Is it?
1:05:35
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just fascinating how how
1:05:38
frustrating an unfinished story can be.
1:05:42
Absolutely. And this time it's not your
1:05:44
fault. Yeah.
1:05:46
All right. Thanks for tuning in, everyone.
1:05:47
I'm going to stop the show before I run out of battery.
1:05:50
Goodbye.