Latest / Math Therapy / Get the politicians out of the classroom w/ David Kochberg

Transcript

Get the politicians out of the classroom w/ David Kochberg · Math Therapy

• 0:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Hi, I'm Vanessa Vakharia, aka The Math Guru, and you're listening to Math Therapy, a podcast that explores the root causes of math trauma, and the empowering ways we can heal from it.
• 0:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Whether you think you're a math person or not, you're about to find out that math people don't actually exist.
• 0:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: But the scars that math class left on many of us definitely do.
• 0:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, and don't worry, no calculators or actual math were involved in the making of this podcast.
• 0:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, so the fans have been asking.
• 0:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: Who is this David, and how does he put up with you?
• 0:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: And if you're not a long time listener, you might be like, who is David?
• 0:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: And David, guys, is our producer.
• 0:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like you hear him in episode.
• 0:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: He'll pipe up when I'm talking too loud, or my bracelets are jingling, or when I say something that might get me canceled.
• 0:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: He's the man behind Math Therapy.
• 0:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I thought it was time to get him on the podcast.
• 0:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: This conversation was wild.
• 0:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: We talked about Joe Rogan.
• 0:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: We talked about how math education has been weaponized.
• 1:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: We talked about what David, who is not an educator, really thinks about the"math wars".
• 1:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: Most importantly, though, we talked about my new book for like two minutes.
• 1:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you haven't heard it's called Math Therapy.
• 1:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: it came out on September 2nd, Keanu Reeves' 60th birthday.
• 1:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's finally available for order, if you head to maththerapy.com.
• 1:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's a book for teachers on how to help every single student heal their math trauma in their classroom.
• 1:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: Anyways, you're not here for that.
• 1:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: You are here for David, just like I am.
• 1:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: So without further ado.
• 1:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let's get to it.
• 1:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay guys, I know the fans of the pod have always wondered about the man, the mystery, the legend, the wizard of Oz, the wizard of Math Therapy, David Kochberg.
• 1:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: He is our producer.
• 1:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: He's my long time bestie.
• 1:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: He's my ex-boyfriend.
• 1:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: We're in a band together.
• 1:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know that you guys are wondering.
• 1:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: How do you make it work?
• 1:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: What is it like?
• 1:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: What is it like behind the scenes?
• 1:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I thought.
• 2:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: I would interview David, and that's what we're going to do today.
• 2:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: So David, welcome to the podcast.
• 2:07
  David Kochberg: Vanessa, it is a delight and an honor to be here.
• 2:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: I just want you guys to know that before we started even recording David started having a full panic because he's like, well, I don't know what to do.
• 2:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm not even in, I'm not in control.
• 2:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: I can't see the wave form on the screen.
• 2:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: And, and, you know, I think that's a really good segue into, what is it like with us working together, working with somebody, David you, yourself, who is such a perfectionist, so detail oriented.
• 2:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: And you having me to produce, who is so not detail oriented.
• 2:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: What has it been like?
• 2:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Let's start there.
• 2:43
  David Kochberg: It has been a learning curve, but as you clearly, and in great detail, explained our entire history together, we have gone through a lot together.
• 2:55
  David Kochberg: So I know you very well, and I know how to work with you.
• 2:59
  David Kochberg: We'll have our little spats.
• 3:01
  David Kochberg: Uh, we'll have our little,
• 3:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: What do we fight about?
• 3:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like about what, what are we disagreeing about during the making of the podcast?
• 3:08
  Vanessa Vakharia: Run the fans through it.
• 3:09
  David Kochberg: Well, We have opposing forms of anxiety that both annoy and compound on each others.
• 3:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sure.
• 3:18
  David Kochberg: So it's just a matter of us just going through those motions before each recording session.
• 3:24
  David Kochberg: I get anxious about is it going to sound good?
• 3:26
  David Kochberg: Is, I, is the room going to be too echoey, is there going to be some noise from outside that the mic is going to pick up?
• 3:35
  David Kochberg: What's the lighting, all this stuff.
• 3:37
  David Kochberg: You're sitting there freaking out about all the questions that you're going to ask, or you don't even know what questions to ask but you've written a thousand questions, and then when we get to the interview, you don't ask any of them.
• 3:47
  David Kochberg: You then just end up chit-chatting and shooting the shit with the guest.
• 3:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: First swear word on the podcast episode.
• 3:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it is from David Kochberg.
• 3:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 3:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: So that's really, really good to know.
• 3:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you so much.
• 3:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, I think what's really interesting is you, so you get roped into this podcast.
• 4:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: Can you take yourself back to when we started this, which I think was 2020, 1st season, four years ago.
• 4:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: What you were thinking when I was like, I want you to produce a podcast called Math Therapy.
• 4:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like what, and I ask this because you are not a math teacher, right?
• 4:17
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're not a math educator, you're an engineer, which so you're kind of in STEM.
• 4:22
  David Kochberg: Yes.
• 4:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: But very different than being in the education world.
• 4:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: What were you thinking at that time about what the podcast was going to be about?
• 4:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: And like, did you care?
• 4:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, were you like, whatever, like I'll just produce something or were you interested in the idea of math therapy?
• 4:36
  David Kochberg: Well, to be precise, I came on board after you had already recorded the first season's interviews.
• 4:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: What?
• 4:45
  Vanessa Vakharia: Who produced it?
• 4:46
  David Kochberg: Well, you and Sabina started the podcast and you had recorded all of these episodes, and then you needed someone to edit them and turn them into a podcast.
• 4:57
  David Kochberg: So then that's so yeah, I wasn't, I wasn't involved in the very early germination of the seed.
• 5:03
  David Kochberg: Seed is that a right analogy?
• 5:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Obviously, I'm not going to know.
• 5:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, well, so when you start editing these episodes, what are you thinking?
• 5:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like you're hearing these stories.
• 5:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: What's going on.
• 5:14
  David Kochberg: From a technical standpoint, I was curious about just, how does one edit a podcast?
• 5:20
  David Kochberg: And then, because we are in a band together and over the years, I've gotten into a lot of the production, I have learned a lot about audio editing and mixing and stuff like that.
• 5:31
  David Kochberg: So then that's why I thought, well, maybe I can try editing this podcast.
• 5:36
  David Kochberg: And I edited all those episodes and it was a lot of fun.
• 5:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: But what did you think of what you were hearing?
• 5:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: The content, like these stories about math anxiety, like where you kind of like, were you interested or were you just like, I'm just editing this girl like a yammering on.
• 5:49
  David Kochberg: Well, I'm quite used to you yammering on.
• 5:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right.
• 5:52
  David Kochberg: Just in general day-to-day life.
• 5:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Sure.
• 5:54
  David Kochberg: And when you yammer, you are very interesting and insightful.
• 5:57
  David Kochberg: And coming from a STEM background myself, I found the conversations interesting.
• 6:04
  David Kochberg: And on that first season and on subsequent seasons since you always have quite a wide variety of guests from all these different backgrounds.
• 6:12
  David Kochberg: Like some people who have math anxiety, some people who are doing the same kind of work that you are.
• 6:20
  David Kochberg: And it is interesting talking about education.
• 6:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, you know what I'm, I'm curious for you to just actually tell us a bit about your history with math.
• 6:31
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like what is your math history like?
• 6:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: I, we obviously talk about math trauma on the podcast all the time.
• 6:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Would you say you ever had any math anxiety yourself or have experienced any math trauma yourself?
• 6:42
  David Kochberg: You know what, as a matter of fact, I do recall a specific instance.
• 6:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: You do?
• 6:48
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 6:49
  David Kochberg: Um,
• 6:50
  Vanessa Vakharia: But you were always good at math, right?
• 6:52
  David Kochberg: Well, so this is, this is interesting because yes, I, I think I always had an aptitude for it in elementary school, but in elementary school like, I didn't do very well in our school for various reasons.
• 7:05
  David Kochberg: And, then for high school, I went to a gifted school, which is never a fun thing to say out loud, but alas.
• 7:16
  David Kochberg: But however it balances out by the rest of the story, because I came in there thinking like, oh, I'm gifted.
• 7:24
  David Kochberg: I'm really good at everything.
• 7:26
  Vanessa Vakharia: This is why we don't label students, everyone.
• 7:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: Go on.
• 7:28
  David Kochberg: Anti labels.
• 7:29
  David Kochberg: If there's one thing I've learned from listening to hundreds of Math Therapy interviews is that labels are very damaging.
• 7:37
  David Kochberg: Uh, so yeah, so I rolled into the first day of class there, thinking oh, I'm so advanced and I'm ahead of the curve and I'm so good at math and blah, blah, blah.
• 7:48
  David Kochberg: And, I think I discovered that everyone else in that class was way further ahead of the curve than me.
• 7:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Really.
• 7:57
  David Kochberg: And I remember the first day, I think the first day of school going to math class.
• 8:02
  David Kochberg: And the teacher starts doing this, like this exercise.
• 8:06
  David Kochberg: He's just shouting out numbers and he's like five plus two times seven minus three divided by seven and he's going on and on.
• 8:15
  David Kochberg: And it's like a kind of brain test for everyone.
• 8:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm getting anxiety.
• 8:19
  David Kochberg: So then I got anxiety.
• 8:20
  David Kochberg: And after like a few numbers, I'm like, I can't keep track of all this stuff.
• 8:24
  David Kochberg: And he goes on for like a minute and then a few of the people in the class got it.
• 8:27
  David Kochberg: And then, then they start going through the actual curriculum and then they're like going through all of this stuff that I've never seen before and all these other people are getting it.
• 8:35
  David Kochberg: And then also it was the kind of school where.
• 8:38
  David Kochberg: I think you could move ahead grade levels if you were advanced.
• 8:41
  David Kochberg: So then there's kids, who's like three years younger than me who know more stuff than me.
• 8:47
  David Kochberg: And so, I remember like, getting home that night, and my parents are all like excited about me going to this new school that we were both excited about, and me being challenged.
• 8:57
  David Kochberg: And I'm like in tears, because I feel like I'm so far behind all of these other kids and all of a sudden, I thought I was so smart cause I get into this gifted school and actually, I don't know anything.
• 9:09
  David Kochberg: And I feel like I was hopeless.
• 9:11
  David Kochberg: So.
• 9:12
  David Kochberg: I do remember that initial shock of math trauma.
• 9:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's funny because like, okay.
• 9:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: First of all, I never knew that story.
• 9:22
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I'm thinking about how many different things there are in there that I'm like, oh my God.
• 9:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: So, you know, using timed, timed, quick frantic ways to measure understanding.
• 9:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Number two, being labeled.
• 9:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: Number three, you know, comparing yourself to everyone.
• 9:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like these are, these are things that can cause math trauma, right?
• 9:43
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like there's just like a whole bunch of them.
• 9:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: And just this idea of like you leaving there, feeling like you're so much less than.
• 9:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did that stick with you?
• 9:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: How did you, how did you move on from that moment?
• 9:53
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like where was there a shift?
• 9:56
  David Kochberg: That, is a good question.
• 9:58
  David Kochberg: I don't really know because
• 10:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: Did your parents say anything to you?
• 10:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like did someone like,
• 10:03
  David Kochberg: Well, I think it was a matter of like, Hey, this is the first day.
• 10:08
  David Kochberg: Let's give it a little bit of time.
• 10:10
  David Kochberg: There's going to be a transition period.
• 10:12
  David Kochberg: And this was a very different school.
• 10:14
  David Kochberg: And I guess that's something I've always related to your story that you, that you always tell about your academic journey and how you didn't fit in at the quote unquote regular school.
• 10:27
  David Kochberg: And then when you get, went to an alternative school, you were able to find yourself academically more.
• 10:33
  David Kochberg: And so that is what happened to me at this school.
• 10:37
  David Kochberg: Kind of the identical story where in previous schools I had not really fit in and I hadn't felt challenged or there wasn't the same kind of attention or it just didn't, it just didn't work for me.
• 10:48
  David Kochberg: for whatever reasons, but then at this school, I did end up fine.
• 10:52
  David Kochberg: And it was a much smaller school.
• 10:53
  David Kochberg: They were small classes.
• 10:54
  David Kochberg: So we got to know our teachers really well and there was so much one-on-one.
• 10:57
  David Kochberg: So I think those kinds of things are actually a parallel between our high school journeys.
• 11:02
  David Kochberg: And so I think just initially that initial shock was a turning point.
• 11:06
  David Kochberg: And then I, we just were like, let's not panic.
• 11:10
  David Kochberg: Let's not jump to conclusions too quickly.
• 11:12
  David Kochberg: Let's give it a bit of time.
• 11:14
  David Kochberg: And then over time I did get into it and I was able to catch up to everyone.
• 11:19
  David Kochberg: And then, and then at that school, yeah, like we would do all those, those Euclid or whatever tests like.
• 11:27
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 11:28
  David Kochberg: So they still had those.
• 11:29
  David Kochberg: And then I started to really enjoy those because those were very problem solving oriented.
• 11:33
  David Kochberg: And, I came to excel at math and science and really enjoy it.
• 11:38
  David Kochberg: And then that's why I ended up going into engineering for my bachelor's.
• 11:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Well, for those of you who don't know, no joke, and I'm not just saying this, David is probably the best problem solver I know.
• 11:49
  Vanessa Vakharia: Not that there's like a best way to be a problem solver, but like, I, it's actually incredible to watch you because literally any problem, whether it's figuring out how to record the podcast or even for this interview, trying to figure out how to make this one mic work for both of us while we're still being videoed while we're in the same room by different devices.
• 12:07
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or whether it's like, I can't figure out how to, like, put a tripod together.
• 12:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or, I mean, it's, it's crazy how your brain works to me.
• 12:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: And to me, whenever I think of what math is about, I think of you.
• 12:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think it's about, um, teaching somebody the skills they need to be able to creatively problem solve in any circumstance, not teaching someone how to put together a tripod, but teaching somebody how to be able to look at any problem from a variety of angles so that they can solve any problem.
• 12:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I really wonder, like, have you ever considered that your ability to do that is a math skill?
• 12:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, my God.
• 12:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm coming up with such good questions.
• 12:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Look, I'm stumping you.
• 12:49
  David Kochberg: You are a professional.
• 12:52
  David Kochberg: Well,
• 12:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Before, before this podcast, would you have considered that a math skill?
• 12:56
  David Kochberg: Probably not explicitly, I wouldn't say that it would be math.
• 13:00
  David Kochberg: I wouldn't think of, and I'm trying to decide if I do, if I still, if I think now,
• 13:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh yeah, sorry.
• 13:06
  David Kochberg: I think problem solving, is a component of math in general.
• 13:12
  David Kochberg: but yeah, you get, this is getting into the semantics of like, of what is math.
• 13:16
  David Kochberg: And so you can say math is problem solving.
• 13:21
  David Kochberg: You can say, like some of the guests in, in recent seasons have said, that math is pattern recognition and you can draw a parallel between pattern recognition and problem solving.
• 13:34
  David Kochberg: So there's definitely a lot of overlap.
• 13:36
  David Kochberg: Yeah, probably listening to your conversations and to you and other educators dive so deeply into what is education?
• 13:43
  David Kochberg: How do kids learn?
• 13:45
  David Kochberg: How do we transfer learning and knowledge to, to students?
• 13:50
  David Kochberg: I probably wouldn't have thought so deeply about that kind of thing, but yes, I definitely think that problem solving and math are intertwined.
• 13:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: So the other really interesting thing I think is that you're not an educator.
• 14:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're not a math educator.
• 14:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: You like, I would imagine that before starting this podcast, you were like, how much is there really to talk about in math education?
• 14:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like you go and teach math.
• 14:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Am I right?
• 14:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, and where I'm going with this, just to give you the full framing of the question is I'm really, I'm so curious, like now that you've seen me behind the scenes and like, you've heard all of these conversations and you've heard about all of the like crazy math wars on social media, I'm wondering how your perception of math education has changed over the past four years.
• 14:34
  David Kochberg: Well, one thing that popped to mind just, I've been through a lot of different education.
• 14:39
  David Kochberg: Like I did a bachelor's and then I've also done a master's.
• 14:41
  David Kochberg: So I, and I'm very curious about academia and I like learning just about how the world works.
• 14:46
  David Kochberg: And I, I enjoyed learning about the academic world.
• 14:51
  David Kochberg: And then also it occurs to me that my mom was a high school teacher and the language department head or something for many, many years.
• 15:00
  David Kochberg: So I also have that kind of perspective of just knowing what her life as a teacher was like.
• 15:06
  David Kochberg: Both in terms of education and then also the social and political influences on teachers and on education.
• 15:15
  David Kochberg: In terms of the world.
• 15:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Say more!
• 15:17
  David Kochberg: Well, just like the, just budget cuts from provincial governments in Ontario that greatly affected her work and life and her fellow teachers, and just knowing the kind of stress that politics can impose onto the education system.
• 15:36
  David Kochberg: So that, yeah, I think that all that kind of stuff has, is just part of me as well.
• 15:41
  David Kochberg: And so that's why I think I can relate to and find interest in all the conversations that you have with your guests, about what, cause they, the same things that happened 20, 30 years ago are, have been happening the last few years.
• 15:54
  David Kochberg: And that does lead to the math wars, which is, it's crazy.
• 16:00
  David Kochberg: And it is really interesting that education is such a.
• 16:05
  David Kochberg: a hot button topic or it's, it's like, to observe how heated things get is pretty crazy, where instead of people, I mean, you and the people you've talked to so far on the podcast are having very constructive conversations, but in other spaces, it's just yelling at each other or like tearing each other down and scream, and it becomes very political and argumentative as opposed to problem-solving oriented.
• 16:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: Do you have more or less hope in our ability to change math education after listening to all these stories?
• 16:45
  David Kochberg: Deep, deep sigh.
• 16:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, you know what I mean?
• 16:48
  Vanessa Vakharia: Like, are you kind of like, oh my God, this is way more of a mess than I thought it was.
• 16:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or are you like, oh, look like all these people are really hopeful and wanting to do good work.
• 16:56
  David Kochberg: Hmm.
• 16:57
  David Kochberg: I guess more because you do have a lot of really constructive conversations.
• 17:02
  David Kochberg: And knowing, and also knowing the feedback that you get, that we get as a podcast, just from teachers who email you to tell you how either an episode really impacted them or when they see you at a conference and then you get the feedback that they got so inspired and that they're going to bring these strategies and perspectives into their classroom.
• 17:28
  David Kochberg: Then you have to have a hopeful perspective that, that those little changes, even just one teacher treating one student better, that that improves the world, even if it's not like the entire overhaul of the education system or something.
• 17:45
  David Kochberg: So it is hopeful to know that you and your colleagues and these guests are doing this kind of work.
• 17:53
  David Kochberg: I think it still is very easy to be cynical, just because it's the way people, the way other people argue.
• 18:00
  David Kochberg: But then also that I do feel like this is just like any other field or
• 18:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: is it?
• 18:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: I always wonder this I'm like, is this like, when I think about it, I'm like, oh my God, math education is so crazy.
• 18:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm like, but hold on, this is just like the music industry we're in.
• 18:14
  Vanessa Vakharia: Really the exact same thing, but.
• 18:17
  David Kochberg: Well, that's different.
• 18:18
  David Kochberg: No, because there, I think it's anything in which politics is involved..
• 18:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right, right, right, right, right, right.
• 18:24
  David Kochberg: So because politicians can weaponize these kinds of things in the effort to get elected or stay elected or to sway voters.
• 18:35
  David Kochberg: And so, like whatever, without being partisan or whatever, it's like, you can get one, party or something saying, oh, it's this other party's fault that whatever test scores are low or something.
• 18:47
  David Kochberg: And then it just becomes, like with so many other things that are impacted by politics, it's just becomes a sport.
• 18:53
  David Kochberg: And then you've got the people who support one party against the people who support the other party, as opposed to those people really wanting to learn, well, what is the research, what does the research say about this, this teaching method or about test scores or about timed test or something.
• 19:12
  David Kochberg: Like, I mean, that's something as an engineer that I have always been drawn to and I feel like it is part of problem solving for me is evidence-based strategies or, or something like that.
• 19:25
  David Kochberg: But I also recognize that many people don't think like an engineer or maybe don't have a, a STEM background where.
• 19:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: They just don't.
• 19:34
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm not, I'm kind of speaking for myself here in a way of like, I don't think people don't care.
• 19:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think there's so much information.
• 19:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: There's so much overwhelm of like, how do I find actual research and dig into the fact and make sure it's not fake news, that people just can't like, they just go with something.
• 19:51
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 19:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's not that I don't think people care, honestly.
• 19:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think that you have the people who care about evidence-based and they find evidence and I'm using air quotes from like some fucked up source, and don't even know that it's like fake news or don't care.
• 20:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Or B they're like, yeah, I would love some evidence, but like, I can't possibly like figure out where to dig and find actual evidence.
• 20:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I'm just going to trust this person who I trust, who happens to be this politician because I'm on their side.
• 20:16
  David Kochberg: Yeah, it's tough.
• 20:18
  David Kochberg: It's very hard because you talk about, I mean, what, what you were describing was a combination of media literacy and numeracy, um, and, it is very difficult, I mean, I think about this, I think about this in, in terms of society as a whole, but working with you on this podcast has helped me to think about it in terms of math education which is very interesting, I mean when, when the COVID stuff came out and like you've got science communicators trying to explain what's actually happening.
• 20:48
  David Kochberg: And then, I mean, even me who is an engineer and understands stuff is, it was so good.
• 20:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: Who is an engineer and understands stuff.
• 20:58
  David Kochberg: That's on that's on my diploma.
• 21:01
  David Kochberg: Bachelor of engineer and guy who knows some stuff.
• 21:07
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 21:08
  David Kochberg: yeah, even for me, I, even for me, a genius.
• 21:11
  David Kochberg: I was
• 21:12
  Vanessa Vakharia: A gifted,
• 21:13
  David Kochberg: A gifted genius, with multiple degrees, it was very confusing.
• 21:19
  David Kochberg: And so I think about, yeah, with, with these things about politicians using these issues as kind of political wedges, it's very frustrating because, because, yeah, I feel for the people who are swayed by these arguments, because they don't have the training to understand a statistical analysis or, yeah, this whole, the anti-science movement or something, or like, that's what I was saying before, how I, found it interesting, like doing my masters.
• 21:52
  David Kochberg: I didn't do a research based master's, but I was exposed to other colleagues in my, in my group who were doing that.
• 21:57
  David Kochberg: So I could see all that stuff and I could see how things are peer reviewed and understand what is a meta analysis and understand how, and I also took, like, I don't understand statistics now, I couldn't do a statistical analysis now, but I took a course back then.
• 22:13
  David Kochberg: And so I, I have a, a foundational understanding of how statistics works.
• 22:18
  David Kochberg: So then that gives me confidence in, what a scientific paper says now.
• 22:26
  David Kochberg: Whereas someone who doesn't have that kind of training, it's like, no wonder someone who doesn't have a STEM background, like, having a, having a, having blind faith in science, it is hard for a lot of people, if you don't really know how it works and, and it's hard to, yeah.
• 22:45
  David Kochberg: Is this making any sense?
• 22:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: That makes sense.
• 22:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: And the thing is I'm just listening to you being like in a way, politicians are weaponizing privilege.
• 22:52
  David Kochberg: Um,
• 22:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: Because you're, you're saying all these amazing things, but I'm listening to you and I'm like, wow.
• 22:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, you have the STEM background and you have these degrees.
• 22:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: And like, I'm not saying this is the only way, but it's like, so much of that comes, you know, like there is a privileged position and being able to obtain all these degrees, and like all of this education, like we already know that.
• 23:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I'm like, I, it's not like politicians don't know what they're doing, or like these like fake news movements don't know what they're doing.
• 23:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: They know that many people have no idea how to interpret stats.
• 23:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: So like they're kind of weaponizing our societies and numeracy.
• 23:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I do think that many people, like advertisers included, like, know what they're doing.
• 23:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: They.
• 23:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: They should know that people don't understand the math behind a lot of the science, and they're going to use that to their advantage, to sell whatever they want to sell, whether that's a new curriculum or policy or product.
• 23:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay.
• 23:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think we.
• 23:41
  David Kochberg: I think yes.
• 23:43
  David Kochberg: I think your point about privilege is very fair and apt.
• 23:45
  David Kochberg: And I think, I think it can also be, I think, a big aspect of the social divide in general that politicians can then kind of amplify or feed off of, is this idea that the word"uneducated" can sound so insulting and you can, because it's so easy to like, look at, look at the other side, look at someone who thinks the opposite you or votes for the other person and think like, oh, they're stupid, they don't get, but, I don't think, I mean, I don't think every, everyone feels that way, but there's definitely some people who are like that person, how can they vote for such and such?
• 24:22
  David Kochberg: They like, they must be so dumb.
• 24:25
  David Kochberg: But my point more so was like, being uneducated, I think it's not necessarily like a dirty word or pejorative or something.
• 24:34
  David Kochberg: It is a fact.
• 24:36
  David Kochberg: And I guess that rolls into why this, like, why all your conversations about equity and diversity and taking into a class, a account class and privilege and stuff like that in education system is so important because if people are educated to understand these kinds of things, then they have the foundational understanding of how society works, and like that basic level of, of literacy and numeracy and media literacy, but that's all, that's a lot of work that the school system has to do.
• 25:09
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 25:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Uh, okay.
• 25:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean, I was thinking like, you know, this kind of, this whole rant started with the math wars and you know, the one thing I've wanted to do is be the Joe Rogan of of math education.
• 25:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: I've thought of us doing a season where I invite guests on specifically that I don't technically agree with.
• 25:29
  Vanessa Vakharia: Right?
• 25:30
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just thinking of the math wars, obviously there are sides and I really do believe that there are so much common ground that has never discussed because people want to polarize.
• 25:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: And everyone is like, you're either on this side or that.
• 25:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: And I've thought of having this season where I specifically bring on those who I disagree with.
• 25:46
  Vanessa Vakharia: That's what I mean about Joe Rogan.
• 25:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: I mean that he's not very discerning with what guest.
• 25:50
  David Kochberg: No, I get it.
• 25:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: I wouldn't say I'm a fan.
• 25:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm just saying that, that format.
• 25:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: What do you think of that idea?
• 25:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: Should I, should I do that?
• 25:58
  David Kochberg: Well, uh, I mean, I can advise you about how to structure an episode.
• 26:05
  David Kochberg: About what order of guests we should put the season in.
• 26:10
  David Kochberg: Um, you know, I can help you.
• 26:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are you going to answer.
• 26:13
  David Kochberg: Copy edit the intros and outros.
• 26:17
  David Kochberg: Um, joking aside, I, I think it's an interesting idea.
• 26:22
  David Kochberg: I think it's hard.
• 26:24
  David Kochberg: it can be.
• 26:25
  David Kochberg: risky with some guests, but I do think there's a hundred percent great value in.
• 26:33
  David Kochberg: two people who don't agree with each other, actually
• 26:35
  Vanessa Vakharia: Having a conversation! Okay.
• 26:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: So if you're listening to this right now and you have a suggestion for a guest, I should bring on, that I probably wouldn't agree with or that you don't agree with, I don't know.
• 26:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just, just give us some suggestions, tweet them at us.
• 26:47
  David Kochberg: But even the last season, when you interviewed Chris, Luzniak, Yeah.
• 26:50
  David Kochberg: the Debate Math Podcast.
• 26:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: That guy is so controversial.
• 26:54
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, just kidding.
• 26:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: He's great.
• 26:56
  David Kochberg: Yes,
• 26:56
  Vanessa Vakharia: But what about him?
• 26:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh, the debate podcast.
• 26:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: Oh.
• 26:59
  David Kochberg: Let me finish.
• 27:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: I thought you were gonna talk shit about Chris, David.
• 27:02
  David Kochberg: No he's great.
• 27:03
  Vanessa Vakharia: He's the nicest.
• 27:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah, Chris, we love you.
• 27:06
  David Kochberg: Are you done?
• 27:08
  David Kochberg: So.
• 27:10
  David Kochberg: In that episode, he was talking about the value of people talking, even if they don't agree with each other.
• 27:18
  David Kochberg: And, now it's one thing, if you've got someone who's just out there and is clearly intentionally inflammatory, just trying to like get clicks or likes or whatevers.
• 27:31
  David Kochberg: That's a different story, but if it's just like, if you can get a sense that someone is arguing about something because they care.
• 27:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yes.
• 27:39
  David Kochberg: Ultimately,
• 27:40
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just a different point of view.
• 27:41
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 27:41
  David Kochberg: Not just because they're argumentative then.
• 27:43
  David Kochberg: Yeah.
• 27:43
  David Kochberg: I think that there is in, in education and in all aspects of life, I do think people, and this is, I think just the perils of social media, it has rewarded arguments, and people yelling at each other.
• 27:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Honestly, I don't know how, but it's been 35 minutes.
• 27:59
  Vanessa Vakharia: So I know you would be telling me to wrap it up.
• 28:01
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I know what people really want to know is what is it like working with me?
• 28:05
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 28:06
  David Kochberg: Well, I mean, it, you, we are your best friends and I, and we know each other very well.
• 28:10
  David Kochberg: And so high level, it is a lot of fun.
• 28:12
  David Kochberg: I wouldn't, I wouldn't spend at the, this much time working on something, if I didn't enjoy working with you on it.
• 28:20
  David Kochberg: And if I didn't feel like the work itself is important.
• 28:24
  David Kochberg: I think it's very, I've always been fulfilled and honored to be a part of it, because I know that there's a lot of listeners and, and teachers who follow you and colleagues and stuff who are very touched by the conversations that you have, and by your own perspective,
• 28:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Okay, next, next, next.
• 28:43
  David Kochberg: You weren't fishing for a compliment?
• 28:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: No, this is a little much, honestly people are going to think that I asked you to say all this nice stuff about me.
• 28:47
  Vanessa Vakharia: Next question.
• 28:48
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 28:48
  David Kochberg: You didn't.
• 28:49
  David Kochberg: I'm volunteering.
• 28:50
  David Kochberg: I was just volunteering.
• 28:51
  David Kochberg: Trying to be nice.
• 28:51
  Vanessa Vakharia: Thank you so much.
• 28:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: I love it.
• 28:52
  Vanessa Vakharia: The next question is, as you know, I have written a book called Math Therapy.
• 28:57
  David Kochberg: What?
• 28:58
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's out and I want.
• 29:00
  David Kochberg: You want me to say the scripted pitch for how great the book is?
• 29:06
  Vanessa Vakharia: But the reason we're recording this, these bonus episodes is because I, um, wrote a book.
• 29:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: Uh, normally we only do one season a year, but I really want to do a little something to celebrate because it's been such a huge milestone.
• 29:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it all started with this podcast.
• 29:18
  Vanessa Vakharia: And the question I want to ask you is, do you think it is dumb that I wrote a book called Math Therapy.
• 29:24
  David Kochberg: Do I think it's dumb.
• 29:28
  David Kochberg: She says on the, on the eve of her releasing said book.
• 29:33
  David Kochberg: Uh, do I think it's dumb that you, no, I don't think it's dumb that you wrote a book.
• 29:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: What do you think?
• 29:38
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are you like, what's the vibe.
• 29:40
  David Kochberg: Well the vibe, okay, but I also just, just also to attack, because you interrupted me, which is not a very nice thing for an interviewer to do.
• 29:47
  David Kochberg: I mean, I was, and I was about to compliment how great and talented and natural a host you are.
• 29:53
  David Kochberg: But in terms of, do I enjoy working on the podcast or what I, I also, part of it is it's a lot of fun technically.
• 29:59
  David Kochberg: I like editing, I like assembling it, I like putting the whole thing together.
• 30:04
  David Kochberg: It's fun.
• 30:04
  David Kochberg: So that's another reason, you know, just for, if there are any budding podcast producers.
• 30:09
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's for the budding podcast producers.
• 30:12
  David Kochberg: Go start a podcast.
• 30:13
  David Kochberg: Pick a topic.
• 30:15
  David Kochberg: Just hit record and then spend the next few hours just stressing over wave forms and whether or not it recorded.
• 30:23
  David Kochberg: And if there's background noise, or maybe, maybe the fridge started humming and then you've got this little, in the background.
• 30:31
  David Kochberg: Um, what was the question?
• 30:33
  Vanessa Vakharia: My book.
• 30:34
  David Kochberg: So I think it's great that you wrote a book, why would I think it's dumb?
• 30:37
  David Kochberg: I think it's a natural extension of all of your work.
• 30:40
  David Kochberg: I mean, you've got your whole life experience that has led you to your perspective on math education.
• 30:45
  David Kochberg: You've worked closely with teenagers and students for many, many years.
• 30:51
  David Kochberg: You're kind of like, you are a teenager in your brain.
• 30:54
  David Kochberg: And you've developed all of these workshops and seminars that you bring to conferences around the world and share these insights and inspirations to teachers to take them to their classroom.
• 31:09
  David Kochberg: So it is very logical that all of that stuff and the stuff that you talk about in the podcast, all can be neatly packaged in a bright pink book.
• 31:20
  Vanessa Vakharia: And just to be clear the book, isn't like a bunch of stories of the podcast.
• 31:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's how to actually take math therapy and use it in your classrooms.
• 31:28
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's like five steps to heal math trauma in the classroom.
• 31:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it's like how to do it, because I feel like in the podcast we learned about all these stories and I started realizing, oh my gosh, like math trauma is literally everywhere.
• 31:39
  Vanessa Vakharia: And it comes in so many different ways, you know, shapes, forms, sizes, this and that, but also realizing that what we do through the podcast, this idea of math therapy, is there are actual practical applications and, well, yeah, now I'm just promoting the book, but I'm just going to do it for one minute.
• 31:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: The point is the book is actually just 200 pages of tips and tricks and strategies and templates and resources of how to actually take math therapy and turn it into a culture in your classroom.
• 32:04
  Vanessa Vakharia: The end, I'm done.
• 32:05
  Vanessa Vakharia: David
• 32:06
  David Kochberg: Which is valuable and a great resource that teachers will have.
• 32:10
  Vanessa Vakharia: It's out now.
• 32:11
  Vanessa Vakharia: Go order it.
• 32:12
  David Kochberg: It's great that you wrote a book.
• 32:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: David.
• 32:13
  Vanessa Vakharia: It is time for the two final questions I ask every guest.
• 32:17
  David Kochberg: I was not anticipating this and I should have.
• 32:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: Are you ready?
• 32:20
  David Kochberg: I guess so.
• 32:21
  Vanessa Vakharia: What do you say to someone who says, but David.
• 32:23
  Vanessa Vakharia: I'm just not a math person.
• 32:27
  Vanessa Vakharia: You're so triggered.
• 32:29
  David Kochberg: Well, this is, it'll sound too easy, but I think the catchiest and most succinct and accurate way to put it is that there is no such thing as a math person.
• 32:39
  David Kochberg: I agree with your tagline.
• 32:41
  Vanessa Vakharia: Why are you saying it in that tone of voice?
• 32:44
  David Kochberg: I guess I just have resigned myself to not being able to on the spot come up with something original.
• 32:52
  David Kochberg: And I'm just, I just am disappointed in myself,
• 32:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: But you did great, don't be so hard on yourself.
• 32:57
  Vanessa Vakharia: Just in case anyone was wondering, David is a Taurus, which explains basically this whole interview.
• 33:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: Final question.
• 33:02
  Vanessa Vakharia: If you could change one thing about math education, what would it be?
• 33:07
  David Kochberg: Get those, get the politicians out of there.
• 33:10
  David Kochberg: Right?
• 33:15
  Vanessa Vakharia: I think we're done.
• 33:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: Yeah.
• 33:16
  Vanessa Vakharia: That was actually the biggest treat.
• 33:19
  Vanessa Vakharia: I don't, I didn't ask you any of the questions I had planned.
• 33:21
  David Kochberg: Just like every other interview you do.
• 33:24
  Vanessa Vakharia: Guys.
• 33:25
  Vanessa Vakharia: David Kochberg, the man, the myth, the legend, the Taurus, you're, you're wonderful, thank you so much for letting me do this.
• 33:32
  Vanessa Vakharia: I know it was uncomfortable for you to be in front of the camera, in front of the mic.
• 33:36
  Vanessa Vakharia: We all had a great time.
• 33:37
  Vanessa Vakharia: And now is that time where I'm going to bid you farewell.
• 33:41
  David Kochberg: How are you going to do it?
• 33:42
  Vanessa Vakharia: Peace out.
• 33:45
  David Kochberg: Bye.
• 33:48
  David Kochberg: Thanks for having me.
• 33:52
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 33:52
  David Kochberg: Wow.
• 33:52
  David Kochberg: That was a real roller coaster ride, even for me.
• 33:55
  David Kochberg: And I do feel I need to say three things to end this episode.
• 33:59
  David Kochberg: The first is, we are not conspiracy theorists.
• 34:03
  David Kochberg: The second is I am actually really serious, and I do want you guys to send me your controversial guest ideas and by controversial, I mean like people you think I might not agree with because I want to talk to them, I want to, I want to hear the other side.
• 34:14
  David Kochberg: And number three, well, this one is just a shameless plug.
• 34:17
  David Kochberg: Order my book.
• 34:19
  David Kochberg: Or at least check it out by heading to maththerapy.com.
• 34:22
  David Kochberg: Honestly, thank you guys all so much for being along for the wild ride that is this podcast and you know what, send David some love, because he did a great, great job, and he was really nervous.
• 34:33
  David Kochberg: You know, it takes a lot to go from being behind the scenes, to in front of the camera, and just shout out to David.
• 34:38
  David Kochberg: We love you, boo.
• 34:44
  Vanessa Vakharia: But I know what people really want to know is what is it like working with me?
• 34:48
  David Kochberg: I also have to say that this entire time, I have just been stressed about whether or not the mic is even working.
• 34:55
  Vanessa Vakharia: How would I know
• 34:55
  David Kochberg: Exactly! That's how, we're not going to know until we finish until we press stop, we're not gonna know,
• 35:00
  Vanessa Vakharia: like the time thing says it's recording.
• 35:02
  David Kochberg: Yeah, sure.
• 35:03
  David Kochberg: But what is, what is time, but a construct.
• 35:05
  David Kochberg: Okay.
• 35:06
  David Kochberg: Anyways, what was your question?