Latest / Through the Sh#t with Jen McDowell / Sh#t in Three Acts | Kimberly Zimmerman-Rand
Transcript
- speaker-0: Really, no one is gonna look out for your career but you. You have to be the one who is constantly shepherding your own self, almost with this metacognition that by being loyal, being true to the work isn't enough. That managing your own career trajectory is only your job and nobody else is going to own it for you. speaker-1: you Welcome, I'm Jenn McDowell and you're listening to Through the Shit, a podcast for anyone going through the shit and the people who love them. In every episode, we'll hear a new story of loss, hope and resilience and how going through the shit led to something greater. So if you're in the shit now and feeling lost or alone, disconnected from your bad-ass self or in need of an ember of hope to keep putting one foot in front of the other, you're in the right place. So settle in, prepare to be moved and inspired and welcome to the shit. Welcome, everybody. You're listening to Through the Shit, and I'm your host, Jen McDowell. Joining me today is Kimberly Zimmerman-Rand, and she's going to tell us about an experience that happened, what did you say, 15 years ago? speaker-0: Thereabouts, it finished off closer to 18 years ago. speaker-1: Okay, all right, so 15 to 18 years ago about getting stomped on at work three times and getting up stronger every time. Kimberly, welcome. Glad to have you here. And so for the listeners out there, Kimberly and I met... speaker-0: Thank you. speaker-1: Two years ago? Three years ago? speaker-0: Three years ago? speaker-1: It's been a couple of years. We were at a coaching conference and your good fortune or bad fortune, I think you were sitting next to me at one of the sessions and we started chatting, which is a big deal for me as an introvert and just kind of hit it off. We had lunch, we've kept in touch over the last couple of years. And I think the thing that most draws me to Kimberly is that you are a like-minded soul, you are kind, you are compassionate. The work that you do is very purpose-driven and meaningful for you, and so, you know, in that way you feel very much like a kindred spirit. So that's my recollection of our first meeting and our time together the last couple of years, but I don't know what your recollection is like. speaker-0: Well, my recollection is similar though, as you say, Jen, that you're an introvert, that surprises me a little because I had been networking with folks at that conference through the weekend, and then I sat down next to you and we made small talk and there was just this immediate synergy. And I thought, ⁓ this is a quality person that I want to keep knowing after this conference is over. And did not pick up at all on your introvert tendencies. speaker-1: get that a lot. What is that, an ambivert? I can fake it really well? Okay. I heard something like, what was it, outrovert? I saw a headline in the last week or two about there's a new type of vert out there. New type of But yeah, so I'm an introvert who can fake it really well, I guess. But yeah, okay. Well, welcome. Super glad to have you here. Let's tell everybody a little bit about who you are professionally so that gives a frame of reference for the story you're about to tell. Kimberly Zimmerman Rand is passionate about people living their best lives through household finance. As a consultant, trainer, coach, and principal at DragonFly Financial Solutions LLC, she engages her talents to help others deepen their knowledge, develop their skills, and become more confident in their relationship with money. For close to 30 years, Kimberly has been providing services to professionals and consumers on both live and online platforms. That's something else we have bonded over in the last year is like dealing with all of the logistics that go into being a facilitator and an educator and things like that and doing it in all of these different formats. ⁓ Kimberly's superpower is bringing clarity to complex personal finance topics and inspiring people to do great things. Not a bad way to spend your time. Kimberly is an accredited financial counselor and associate certified coach through the International Coaching Federation. She is also a HUD certified housing counselor. Kimberly holds a Master of Social Work in Social and Economic Development and Nonprofit Management from Washington University in St. Louis, my old stomping ground, and a Bachelor of Arts in Psychology from Colby College. So Kimberly, welcome. Very glad to have you here. speaker-0: Thank you for having me. speaker-1: Yeah. Okay. So, you know, every podcast starts off kind of the same in terms of talking about what this idea of through the shit means to your story. ⁓ You have a work story to tell us, which I'm super excited to hear. And so as you think about this idea of going through the shit, why don't you tell me what that phrase means to you and your story? speaker-0: I think going through the shit means to me that you have been confronted with something in your life that's maybe new or maybe harder than something that you've done before that pulls from you resources that maybe you didn't know you had and hopefully leaves you stronger on the other end. Though I'll also say growing through this shit also makes you feel like, ⁓ my gosh, when is this gonna end and am I gonna survive this? When you can look back on it from the future, you feel a sense of accomplishment, but when you're in it, man, does it feel bad. speaker-1: Yeah, so that comes up a lot, this idea of something new, not sure how you're going to get through it. Some people talk about like this mountain that they've got to climb with cement around their feet. Not only do they not know how they're going to climb it, but they don't feel even like they are able to start the climb. And that's something I also talk a lot about with clients is like, they find themselves stuck and unable to move forward in some situation because it's like the first time they've had to deal with it. ⁓ you know, being able to navigate in that space of unfamiliarity in a way that really sort of turns up the pressure on you, I think, is a really important element to the story that you're about to tell us. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. And then I'll double back and say, and then when it happens to you three times over the span of 12 years, and you think, wait, I thought I already learned this lesson, why is it being presented to me again? Gives you that opportunity, I guess we could say from a positive framing to learn even more about yourself. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, it's like the idea of the spiral staircase. mean, the view is kind of this, the view is the same and the different at the same time. It's like, wait, I've already dealt with this. yet, as you kind of continue to climb up the staircase, you level up, you see it again, it's a different perspective, it builds on some new skill or whatever. ⁓ But you learn that you can survive it. And when you find your way through the shit to the other side, you're like, yeah. I did some shit and I can do hard things. Okay. Anything else you want to add? speaker-0: ⁓ I think that kind of tees us up pretty well for where we're going to go in this conversation. speaker-1: Alright, well tell me your shit. speaker-0: ⁓ so it's shit in three parts, act one. I am about to graduate from college. I'm 22. I had been pre-med and had just received 16 rejection letters from medical schools. also had the stunning opportunity of being able to have speaker-1: Ha! speaker-0: Something akin to an exit interview with the dean of one of those medical schools because he was a friend of my uncle. And this was back in the 90s. So there's no Zoom calls happening back then. This was a telephone call from a hallway payphone in a dormitory where he dressed me down and said, you are not ready for medical school. You have to go back. You need to retake your science classes. You need to go work in a lab. You need to retake the MCAT. and then maybe we'll consider. And I got off the phone with him and thought, all right, I guess I'm not gonna be a doctor. It was as easy as that. So that left me with re-imagining my career at the age of 22 with a very short time horizon because here it is April and I'd like to be employed by the fall. I did a quick search of the landscape and thought, well, I've always cared about community-based services and decided to join the VISTA program, which is similar to an AmeriCorps program. So pretty easy to get accepted to that because, Jen, it's a volunteer program. No one's getting paid for this. And so I was accepted to the VISTA program, went through my orientation in August and was assigned to work at the community center of a public university somewhere in New England. We'll make that vague to protect the innocent. And this was very familiar territory for me at my college. had run the entire volunteer center. So to be staffed at a community service center at a university, I felt like, yeah, I can do this. I was... introduced to my supervisor at that position and he took me out to lunch. He took me around to introduce me to the various players. This is a mid-sized city in New England. He had the local newspaper come and do a story on me. I have my picture in the newspaper. And I thought, ⁓ I'm off to the races. This is a great opportunity for me to have a positive impact on this little community. And what a beginning to my career. And all went well for maybe three weeks. And then things started getting odd. Again, this is back before computers. And so we had a pin we had to dial into our landline telephone in order to retrieve our voicemails. And he made me give him the pin to my voicemail. He started monitoring my calendar. because at that point in time, again, mid-size city, a lot of people knew each other. And I was being invited to various community meetings to do projects, to set up opportunities for students to volunteer. I was young, I was enthusiastic, I am an extrovert. And I thought things were going swimmingly. He, in retrospect, ⁓ did not like that feeling of this young new upstart. And I will say young new upstart female was coming in and stealing a little of his thunder. So he started monitoring my meetings. My job during the day was to collect the mail from the central post office at the university. And that was about it. And then the... The tirade is too strong of a word, but then the meeting started taking place where he would lock the door of his office and berate me for my insolent behavior. Who did I think I was? Very much trying to intimidate me into submission. This all culminated one rainy night in November. where I had been assisting him. He was teaching a class in community service at the local community college, and I was his teacher assistant. It was a dark rainy night, and I was leaving the building to walk to my car, and I heard noise behind me, and he was older. He was a little out of shape. So he was huffing and puffing as he was chasing me across the parking lot. What I soon discerned that was before he had left the classroom, he had used their telephone system to check my voicemail one more time. And on that voicemail was an invitation to yet another community meeting that he had forbid me to. Attend. Again, it's back in the 90s. Communication took slower. I didn't have the opportunity to cancel the meeting, so they were confirming this meeting. He listened to my voicemail and chased me across the parking lot to tell me in this huffing voice that I had been insubordinate, that I was being fired, that he would make sure I would never work in that city again. I was shocked. That was not how I had an image of myself as a worker. I was flummoxed that this was what my first work experience out of college was gonna look and feel like. ⁓ Yeah, and that following morning I had been fired from a national service program. speaker-1: No. Wow. speaker-0: The lucky part of the story, and again, I'll pull on my extroverted tendencies, is that in that very short amount of time, I had made friends with the other volunteers in that little city who were doing similar service years. I had been introduced to their bosses, and within 24 hours, I had a job offer. speaker-1: Okay. So, a Phoenix Ry thing? speaker-0: The threat of never being able to work in that city again kind of landed with a thud for this man. speaker-1: Yeah. Kimberly, let me kind of go back because you said getting stomped down three times. So the first time was getting dressed down by the Dean of the med school. speaker-0: No, that's actually the pre- that was actually- I'm just finishing- I'm just finishing Stomp Warp. speaker-1: ⁓ Act One. This is Stopped One. ⁓ my God. Okay. I have so many questions, but I want to hear the rest of the story. So tell me Acts Two and Three. speaker-0: Fast forward, it is now 12 years later. I have gone to graduate school. I've had a couple of jobs and I'm feeling pretty confident in my abilities, both as a nonprofit manager and as a content, a subject matter expert. I'm feeling pretty good. now, in Act 1, I'm 22. In Act 2, I'm 34. I am being recruited for a managerial position at a national nonprofit where I would run a national program in my area of expertise. I was quite excited. ⁓ I wasn't looking for the job. I met this man at ⁓ an industry event. He really ⁓ wanted me on his team. He offered me, a 50 % pay increase, what I was currently making. speaker-1: hard to say no to that. speaker-0: It was great compensation. It was a national platform. I was a little bored where I was. I thought, this is fantastic. Let me take this job. So I started. And thinking I'm wise, thinking I've grown, and here we go again. In a very short period of time, he started asking me to do Pretty menial work, yet requiring of me pretty impressive output that he could then send up to the executive director of this organization. And being the confident, seasoned professional that I was, I felt emboldened to have critical conversations with him. on these metrics that he was setting out for me. Once I had been in the position for about three months, three months, he sat me down in his office, again behind closed doors, and put a piece of paper in front of me and said, these are your goals for the following year. And I looked at them and I said in my confident professional way, Well, these are not realistic. And he said, it's okay, it's okay. We just need something for the file. Just go ahead and sign and, you know, we'll work on them the following year. Something in my Spidey sense, Jen said, that doesn't sound right. But I was also three months into my position. I was really excited about having a national platform. And I thought, okay, I'll just, I'm new to this organization. I'll sign. the work plan and we'll just go on our merry. And it was, I believe now he did that on purpose because he was already feeling threatened by me. Three months later, he sat me down and said, you haven't made any of your metrics. I said, well, we talked about that three months ago. You knew I wasn't going to make any of the metrics. And he said, well, be that as it may, if you don't meet them in the next three months, you'll be fired. So in those three months, speaker-1: Wow. speaker-0: I was very fortunate to cross paths with a mentor of mine who I spoke with once a week who taught me how to survive and simultaneously networked my butt off so that by the time the date came for me to be fired, I already had another job lined up. And again, 12 years later, so when we talked at the beginning of our conversation about you learn and you grow, but sometimes on that spiral staircase, you say, how am I here again? How did I let this older male supervisor, Bully me in this way. And again, was able to come out on my feet with a job. So that's the end of Act Two. All right, fast forward. This one's not maybe as strident as the other two. Now we're only two years later. The job I had procured was an interim contract job. It was at a not-for-profit agency going through some transition pains. and needed someone to keep the ship steady while they found a new leader. So in that position, I was reporting to the chair of the board of directors. Also in that position, I was newly married and had gotten pregnant. kept it quiet because the work of keeping the agency on steady footing was my priority and I really didn't want to draw attention to myself. The day came when my executive assistant came into my office in her young adult bluntness and said, Kimberly, you keep going to the gym, but you keep getting fatter. I think you're pregnant. speaker-1: Let me say speaker-0: Truth be told, was like 20 weeks pregnant. Like I was very pregnant at this point. I wasn't a little pregnant. was, I was very, pregnant. It just happened to be a day when the chair of the board was in the building for meetings. So then she went and leaked to the chair of the board and the chair of the board walked in and had a a little bit of a wistful look on her face and sat down in the chair across from me and said, well, here we are. I guess we're no longer in need of your services. speaker-1: Damn. speaker-0: And yeah, and absolutely caught me off guard. I did not think I would be let go the very same day that my pregnancy was announced. I did luck out in that situation in that ⁓ a new executive director had just been hired and she made the case to the board that I should be held on for institutional knowledge and I was able to work through the rest of my pregnancy. But having those three very impactful experiences in the first 15 years of my career really taught me a lot about what you know as far as your content knowledge is sometimes inconsequential. It really has to do with your strength of character, your ability to regulate yourself, your ability to keep a clear view of the landscape to get yourself out of bad situations and to stay true to who you want to be in the workplace. And 22-year-old self had no idea that those were lessons that needed to be learned. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, and continued to be learned, right? speaker-0: and to need it to be learned over and over again. speaker-1: All right, so let's do a retrospective on this three-part act. think the first question that comes up for me is like, you have been summarily dismissed three times in your professional career that you've shared. And I think back to the time when I got let go, and that was such a huge hit to my ego. ⁓ Tell me what that experience was like for you, because I know so many clients that I work with have a large degree of their identity tied up into what they do. I was just having a conversation with someone about like, work is what you do, it's not who you are. And so to have that experience happen three times, I mean, my ego would be very sorely bruised. speaker-0: Absolutely, absolutely. And especially for folks who work in mission-driven arenas in the nonprofit sector, especially because we don't have the financial remuneration that other folks have, we are indoctrinated in loyalty and allegiance to mission. So when you're dismissed from a mission-driven position, the hit to your identity can be catastrophic. I will say in the first time I was let go, I was fired. It was disorienting because it was so incongruous to who I saw myself as a person. I knew my skillset. I knew I was doing good work. I did not understand the age dynamic, the gender dynamic. ⁓ I did not understand what his problem with me was. ⁓ As I'm sure many young professionals, how could you understand that a 50-something-year-old man would be threatened by a 20-something-year-old woman? It was disorienting. I will say, because I felt so confident about my skillset, I did not take a hit to my ego in that regard. But with regards to those soft skills that are so often talked about in popular media, in coaching conversations, that was where my area of growth was. just did not understand why this was happening to me. I did not understand why this man was acting the way he was, why he would be threatened by someone like me. And that's what I had to grapple with during those moments. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, you're raising a really interesting point about, you know, the extent to which we allow others to shape how we see ourselves. And for you, it sounds like you were solid in your skills and what you could bring to the table, but the lesson was really more about not letting other people shape your perspective and learning some of those relationship dynamics that maybe you haven't been exposed to up to that point in your life. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. And also teaching me to not bring everything that I can do to the table immediately. Because I won't say that I walked in like a bull in a china shop, but I definitely walked in with everything I knew how to do well and wanted to show it off immediately. And that doesn't excuse this older man's behavior towards a much younger female, but the I guess the table was laid at that point where he discovered that I was competent and that I was stealing some of his thunder for him to really start to take out his insecurities on me. speaker-1: You know, that's kind of counter to the culture we are in now or that I remember being in when I was in corporate America is like when you were going through the interview process, you want to sell yourself as the A candidate and to like bring all of those things to bear. And yet I'm hearing you say that one of the lessons was don't show all your cards right out of the gate and to exercise some of that restraint. So How does one balance that tension between being stellar enough to rise above the other candidates, but not putting a mark on your, speaker-0: Yeah, Jennifer, I knew maybe I could have avoided those two situations. I don't know. I don't know. And I think that is so fascinating to think about, to think that in the interview process, that's what we're all taught to do. And I think both of these older male supervisors were very impressed with me. They let other people know how impressed they were of me. In the second position, we went to other industry events together and he made a point of introducing me to people as a person he was so proud to have brought on his team. I know this isn't a therapy podcast, but there's a lot of kind of armchair analysis you could have done with these two men because they had very similar, in the end, they had very similar profiles. speaker-1: Yeah, which leads, think, exactly to my next question is, you know, how do you weed out or suss out that type of dynamic in the interview process? I mean, if you were to go back now, knowing what you know, how do you weed that out? speaker-0: Yeah. And I will say during that second job, 12 years after the first job, I spent many a night thinking, how did I get myself in this situation again? How did this happen twice? I don't know if there was a way to have created a different outcome than what was going to happen, because I did ask many more questions the first time than I did the previous time. You know, with the second job, I was gainfully employed. I was appreciated by my employer. I wasn't running. I wasn't desperate the way I was when I was 22 and take anything. And yet it still happened. And so I'll probably be shaking my head and pondering that for the rest of my days. speaker-1: Yeah, and I don't know. mean, maybe this is where we need a third guest to come in and opine on this. ⁓ you know, two things. One, I think there are certain types of personalities who know how to turn on the charm, especially in the early phases of, you know, getting to know someone, whether it's an intimate relationship or professional relationship. And it's hard to see past that charm. when you are first meeting and then sort of the true personality starts to bubble out the longer you know the person. But I think my answer was gonna be the same as yours is how do you ask some of those questions through the interview process, especially now where interviews are 30 minutes and then like you're forced to make a decision. Yes, no job offer, are you doing this or not? Right? And it's such an employer ⁓ focused, employer centric market right now. that it's hard for candidates to get adequate time to really sort of vet those types of opportunities and the dynamics of the team. But it's like, do you ask behavioral style questions to the people who are interviewing you? Tell me about a situation where you disagreed with a colleague. Tell me about a situation where you had to discipline someone on your team. ⁓ How would you describe your approach to disciplining someone or giving feedback to someone? Or maybe that's the question is, what style of feedback do you use? ⁓ Like, what questions do you ask? speaker-0: That's a great question. I don't know if 34 year old me would have had the wherewithal to have asked this 60 something year old man, so how do you give feedback? You know, especially when you're in that mode of saying, is what I, this is my track record. This is what I've built. This is what I can build for you. Yeah, feedback never came up. speaker-1: Yeah. mean, which hearing you say that back just kind of brought up something else for me, which is a big thing for me is people pleasing. And so I don't know if there was any element of that for you in your situation that was at play here in terms of, again, going back to this, like, you got to sell yourself and perform at a high level and please people because your job is riding on it. So to what extent was people pleasing at all a factor here that you had to sort of reckon with? speaker-0: That's a great question, Jen. And I will say, I think I fall into the minority of people where I don't have a people pleasing gene. I was, I am a hundred percent loyal to the project. I want to build something good. I want to build something with integrity. I want to build something with staying power. And I want everybody else to feel the same way about the project. And looking back, might that have caused some blinders where I wasn't paying attention enough to his fragile ego? Maybe, maybe. ⁓ worrying about pleasing him was never on my radar screen. speaker-1: Okay. Super envious about that. ⁓ Where does that come from or not come from? speaker-0: I think people are just born one way or another way. speaker-1: know mine was a function of conditioning to some extent. And I can point to circumstances in my past that got that. But I'm always super fascinated when someone's like, yeah, fuck that. I don't need to do that people pleasing bullshit. Let's kind of take ⁓ a look back. So you talked about sort of being in this, like, how am I in this situation again? How am I in this situation again? ⁓ The other thing that I sometimes see happen is like the shame and the narrative. Like, ⁓ my gosh, I'm so whatever because I'm in the situation again. And like, was there any of that at play? speaker-0: Again, no, I will say that there was very little self blame. It was more bewilderment, disorientation, cognitive dissonance of, wait a minute, I thought now that I'm older, this wouldn't happen to me again. And here it was happening to me again. And I just couldn't believe it. I couldn't believe I was having to go through this. yet again, I didn't know how many more times this was gonna happen to me in my career. And I absolutely believe that those two and then third experience were fodder for me becoming self-employed was I did not want to even give myself the opportunity of being, potentially being in a situation like that anymore. speaker-1: Yeah. Just foreclose that risk and possibility. you go through sort of this trajectory. know, it's kind of like a series of hills and you never sort of go back down to the very bottom. Incrementally, you're kind of continuing your upward trajectory. ⁓ And each one of those sort of dips or downs is kind of its own mini period of shit that's part of a bigger sort of string of shit. So was there point at which you finally felt like you were coming out of it or was that part of your journey to entrepreneurship and running your own business? speaker-0: Being let go that third time, again, not, I would not have called her a bully. ⁓ Was she paying attention to the entire landscape? No, she was a volunteer board member. This was not a high priority for her. She had a life, she had a career, she had a family, this was her volunteer work. So she wasn't really looking at me as being. any asset that she needed to preserve or to mentor or to shepherd along. She just had a problem she needed to solve. letting me go when a new executive director had been chosen was an easy fix, not thinking at all about my life. And... I think that third experience cemented the fact that really no one is gonna look out for your career but you. You have to be the one who is constantly shepherding your own self, almost with this metacognition that by being loyal, being true to the work isn't enough. that managing your own career trajectory is only your job and nobody else is going to own it for you. speaker-1: Looking back you got to the point where you're like no more. I'm taking a stand and I'm you know going to to do my own thing so In what other ways do you feel like these experiences have propelled you forward? speaker-0: I have definitely learned a lot. I've learned a lot about the working world. I've learned a lot about myself. I've learned a lot about the fact that not only do we all need subject matter expertise, but we need, you know, I really feel like it's a misnomer to call them soft skills because these interpersonal skills are sometimes just as important as the tasks we're performing every day. Once I was building my business and got it to a certain level of maturity, I went through a very deliberate process of assessing all of my clients and letting go of the clients who, to quote Marie Kondo, did not bring me joy. And it was a long process. I won't say that I was three or five years in when I made the shift. I was closer to 12 or 15 years into my business when I finally got to the place where I thought to myself, I really want to love everybody I work with. I really want to feel like a virtuous cycle when I'm working with them. So again, that spiral staircase motif, but in a good way. that we keep working together and things keep getting better and better and better every time we do a project together. And to let those clients go for whom I felt like they didn't fully respect my skillset, that I had other clients who, because of the non-profit, culture that they were being pulled down by that allegiance to the mission and wanted me to be pulled down with them to not be financially compensated appropriately and Over the span of a couple years were able to let go some of those clients To now that I'm at year 18 of this business I can say with complete confidence that I adore every single client that I work with. And I'm very intentional about it. speaker-1: Yeah. I mean, that's ⁓ amazing. And I might even go so far as to say a tremendous privilege to have to be that selective in the clients that you work with. But I don't think, you know, I'm just thinking of a client that I was having a conversation with recently. Not everyone has that privilege and that ability to sort of coel through who they work with. So what advice, if any, might you give to someone who, at least for the present moment, can't not work with someone? speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. Well, and like I said a moment ago, it took me 12 to 15 years to get there. So I had 12 to 15 years of taking any piece of work that I could take. I think if I were to talk to my younger self who was feeling frustrated at that point, I would say, you know, stay the course, remember what is most important to you, and know that Clients can fit in different categories. You can have your best clients and you can have your for now clients You know your forever client Let's call it your forever clients and your right now clients and sometimes you need those right now clients to pay the bills and that's And that's okay ⁓ As long as you don't get sucked into the feeling that you will have to stay with the right now clients forever Because totally you won't speaker-1: Yeah, and I guess for me it's bringing up this idea of boundaries and choice. Because I remember thinking back to a situation where I had a ⁓ toxic work environment. And ⁓ it got to the point where I was leaving. I was actively looking for something different. And the action behind looking and knowing that I was going to leave and knowing that it was time limited was super empowering. Because when something would happen or someone would say something, it was kind of like, know, what was that phrase in the 90s or whatever? Talk to the hand because the face ain't listening or whatever it is. It's kind of like, whatever. I'm taking this with a grain of salt because this is about you. It's not about me. I am doing everything in my power to leave this situation. And so, like, I'd love to hear your thoughts on boundaries. And for me, it was like, I was taking control of the situation because I was choosing to not let it affect me anymore. So I'd love to hear your thoughts on boundaries or choice or anything that you feel like you can reflect on from your experience. speaker-0: Yeah, boundaries are super, super, super important. And when I'm working with my coaching clients now, we will frequently have those types of conversations because absolutely with personal finance that comes into play around helping other people, family members, making sure your children are taken care of, those types of things. And in work environments, I think boundaries are just as important as any other aspect of your life. And I think the example you just brought up around Knowing that you were leaving and being able to create that firewall that this is what I'm doing today. It's temporary because I'm now creating my exit path is a healthy thing to do and can lead to self preservation because you know that you're actively working on a better tomorrow. Even if you say for right now, so for that decade or so where I had to take any client work to say to myself, all right, I'm doing this right now, but I'm not doing this forever. I didn't know when forever was going to arrive. I had no idea. But I could remind myself that this is what I had to do in the moment to get through. I think can be, can really, and it can be helpful. It can be preserving. speaker-1: Yeah, okay. So let's kind of tie this up here. You know, early on you kind of went through a lot of the lessons that you've learned through this experience of like, knowledges and everything. ⁓ You know, being able to, you know, build skills, soft skills is important. The interpersonal skills is important. No one's looking out for you but yourself. You've got to self shepherd yourself in your career. ⁓ You learned about your strength of character. You learned the importance of staying true to who you are and what's important to you. What other lessons do you feel like are worth reiterating at this point? speaker-0: think another through line to all of this is having networks out, professional networks outside of the employment. That's, think those were the, those were the relationships that got me through. Those were the relationships that helped foster the transition out of those jobs, that foster transition into new positions. gave me that backstop of knowing that there were people out there in my professional circle. You I had my friends, I had a new husband at that point, but to have professional colleagues who understood my skillset, who were able to mentor me through some of those soft skills and for whom I knew they had my back and believed in me, ⁓ were priceless. When things are going well at work, I think it's very easy to ignore that part of your professional network. But then when push comes to shove, you really need them. I think if I were to talk to a younger professional today, I would say cultivate those networks outside of the workplace, those professional networks outside of the workplace while things are going well, because they will be with you when. the shit happens. speaker-1: Totally. mean, I see that myself in terms of, you know, not having anyone to talk to. And I know when I was going through my, you know, professional transformation and journey, I would talk to anyone. I was in that camp where I had let networks lapse and I was doing cold outreach to people I hadn't spoken to in a long time. But I talked to anyone who would talk to me. ⁓ And I think in these days of AI candidate screening and things like that, having that warm body and that warm intro to help shepherd you and guide you through the process of getting a job can be super helpful. But like this idea of networking is almost an investment in yourself. You need to keep sort of investing and putting in that piggy bank of yourself ⁓ so that when the time comes, you have that savings, for lack of a better word, to fall back. speaker-0: Absolutely, because when I think about the light at the end of the tunnel in all three of those experiences, it was because, and again, I will lean on my extraversion, but I was just happy to be out in the community and meeting people. And if people needed something done, I was happy to do it for them. So the job when I was 22, an executive director of a homeless shelter said, she can come work here. I worked there for two years prior to going to graduate school. It was a fantastic professional opportunity. And it was a fairly healthy work environment for me. When I left the second job, I moved into that short contract position, but I only got there because of a relationship I had with a board member who believed in me and believed in my skillset. When I pivoted to self-employment after that third position, I got pulled into a national level project by consulting colleagues who knew I had the chutzpah to get the job done. And if I hadn't been actively cultivating those relationships when I didn't need them, they wouldn't have been there when I did need them. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. mean, it's one, keep investing in yourself. And I find it ironic that I keep using this like money finance terminology given what you do. But like, keep investing in yourself. And also, each job was a stepping stone to something else that allowed you to lean into your skills, to build those relationships, to lead you to the point where now you can be selective with the relationships that you want to build and curate. So. ⁓ Okay, final question. Someone who's going through the work shit now. Maybe they've lost a job. Maybe they have a toxic boss. What do you tell them? speaker-0: I've got someone in my life right now who's going through this. ⁓ I think I would repeat a couple of the themes that we've already talked about. it's building those relationships outside of the workplace of high quality contacts where you can learn from, they can learn from you, ⁓ being one. So keeping that really authentic in-person networking, being one. and second being to find opportunities to cultivate your craft, so that content knowledge piece of it, regardless of how it looks on paper. I think some people say, well, I can only do my job in X, Y, and Z environment. And if I can't do it in X, and Z environment, then it doesn't mean anything. It always means something. If there's a skill that you are especially passionate about, find a way to do it. find a way to do it, even if it doesn't look good on paper, even if it's just temporary, because that also will help you get up in the morning and will give you the fodder to keep moving on until the greener pastures come into view. speaker-1: Yeah. So building those authentic connections and staying true to what you do well. Yeah. Right. Okay. Wise words. Well, Kimberly, thank you for being here today. Listeners, thanks for listening, and we'll see you on the flip side. That's it for this episode of Through the Shit. Thanks for listening. If you liked this podcast, like, share, and subscribe, and maybe send it to someone who needs a boost because they're going through the shit. While you're at it, tell them how important they are to you. If you have a story of shit to share or you're in the shit now, I'd love to hear from you. Email me at throughtheshitpodcasts.gmail.com or go to our website at throughtheshit.com. I'll see you on the flip side. speaker-0: you