Latest / Dispatched & Dysfunctional / “Stop Calling It Brotherhood If You Won’t Act Like Family” — Jason Meinershagen

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“Stop Calling It Brotherhood If You Won’t Act Like Family” — Jason Meinershagen · Dispatched & Dysfunctional

• Christopher Stockton: All right. Welcome back to the special dysfunctional. I've been looking forward to this one, ⁓ to because today's guest has pretty much been on every damn near side of everything you could think of, fire dispatch leadership, mental health help, ⁓ and eventually decid deciding to walk away from the bugles to go back to the truck. ⁓ today's guest is Jason Minershagin. So before titles, credentials, podcast, coaching, or any of the polished internet BS, Jason, who are you? And who are you really when nobody is calling you chief? ⁓ firefighter, dispatcher, coach or anything else for that matter? ⁓ and what made this conversation worth saying yes to? Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, nobody's calling me chief anymore. That's for that's for sure. ⁓ That's a that's that's a that's a good one. That's ⁓ that that's ⁓ Yeah, nobody's calling me that anymore. It's all good. ⁓ thankfully. I am a ⁓ a husband, thirty three years, ⁓ a father of five, and ⁓ a child of God. Christopher Stockton: Ha ha ha. I love that. That's a great answer. So you said the calls that once haunt you don't haunt you the same way anymore. They're still there but the loss ⁓ that stayed with you most was the loss of yourself. So when did you realize that taking the biggest piece out of you wasn't one particular call anymore, it was who you were becoming in the end. Jason Meinershagen: Well, I think I think we're becoming all along, right? Like so like for me w working through my my trauma, both trauma from childhood and trauma in the fire service, and and that career started really in Twenty nineteen. And it was ⁓ at the time twenty twenty two, twenty twenty-three years in in the fire service plus fifteen years of dispatching part-time ⁓ throughout that time frame. And I sought help originally ⁓ and reached out for help because of one call. Like I thought, like, okay, this is the one that broke me. I'm done. come to find out, I guess we started to unpack that trauma. It it dated all the way back to like my first year on the job. And calls that I had repressed and buried, because that's what we have to do to some degree. We have to we have to close the box and move on to the next call. ⁓ you know, when you're working 24 hour shifts, 48 hour shifts for us now. ⁓ And you have that that traumatic call, that really hard call f early on in the shift, first thing in the shift, you you you don't get to go see a counselor right then and process through it. And even if you did, sometimes that that's that's not enough. You have to you have to take some time to process through that. And so ⁓ all that accumulated trauma over the course of twenty twenty some odd years, ⁓ really kind of came to a head for me in in twenty nineteen. And It was in understanding that The trauma doesn't define us. It's it's all in how we define ourselves and who we want to become and who we are choosing to become. ⁓ Has it changed me? Yeah, absolutely. Like I'm not the same person I was thirty years ago when I started this job. ⁓ I'd like to think I'm better. I'd like to think I'm better off for it. ⁓ I'm definitely more mature, you know. I mean, 25, 30 years ago, I was a 25-year-old little kid that that was living selfishly and just kind of doing my own thing. And, you know, wisdom has and and experience and and hardship has has changed me over the years. So the person that that we become is who we choose to become. ⁓ and it's it's the freedom I've found in laying down my pain. Like it's okay to we talked about this last weekend. It's okay to absorb other people's pain. That's what we do. and I was down at the the rescuing the rescuer conference that that we just put on. ⁓ through the through the the ninety nine initiative with the silent war within podcast. We were down in in in south of I can't remember the name of the little town, something Grove or Oak Grove or I I don't know. Some south south Memphis for me. ⁓ And we did a we did a you know, we had a brief discussion panel up at this up on the stage. And I can't remember the gentleman's name now. Bot no, that's not it. I can't remember the gentleman's name. He's ⁓ he's a chaplain. And he had a good point. You know, he had a good point. Like the question, I don't remember what the specific question was, but it had something to do with like how do we how do we do this job and stay healthy and absorb everybody else's trauma or everybody else's ⁓ pain. And he was like the third or fourth person to answer and he really put it in a great perspective when he said, like, you can't help but walk into this job and walk out a changed person. You can't help but to take on other people's trauma and other people's pain, other people's hardship in this job because that's what we signed up for in some sense. And I don't like saying that, hey, we signed you you you you know what you signed up for, but we signed up to help. We we signed up to help people, right? And that's that's part of that. You can't help people and not Christopher Stockton: Right. Jason Meinershagen: Take a wound on emotionally at some point ⁓ in the process or pick up their pain. And so the challenge then becomes: how do we do that? How do we walk with them in their pain? Pick up that pain for a moment and for a season, for a day, or an hour, or 20 minutes, whatever timeframe we need to in order to affect that. affect that outcome, how do we do that and then set that pain down and walk away? How do we not ⁓ let it define us and and change us so much so that that it becomes who we are? And Christopher Stockton: Yeah, and I think you're right on that too, because if if we didn't honestly feel it, we wouldn't be true providers. We wouldn't we wouldn't be able to help the patients. You know, we wouldn't be able to help the patients' families. And like you said, that I'd that's a great way to put that. I was actually wanting to join, but I had to work. but yeah, that that's ⁓ damn. Jason Meinershagen: Yeah. Yeah, it was a good weekend. It was a good weekend. Looking forward to doing it again. I think we're gonna try to haven't told Kevin this yet. We're gonna we're gonna try to bring it up to Saint to the St. Louis region. I wanna I wanna do that up here. It was a good Yeah, yeah, it was a good conference. Christopher Stockton: I gotcha. Yeah, y'all brought it down south. That was awesome. So, you know, I guess a a question I have on that one too is we all, like you said, absorb the calls, we all feel the calls. and to me, I don't think when we go back to the firehouses or EMS stations that we properly decompress about it. I I think we a lot of the older ⁓ generation feels like they have to suck it up. And like you said, they feel like they signed up for the job, but that's not really the the point of it. ⁓ so so w you know, why why do you think it is that when we go back to the fire d departments or or stations or whatever that we don't properly talk about it or decompress about it? Jason Meinershagen: think that's a multi layered question or the answer there is multi layered there's a lot going on in just in in in that answer because there's there's still a stigma there's still a system that's not truly set up to support us as the as the frontline personnel with a moral or emotional injury. ⁓ I've said it for years and I I'll probably get in trouble for saying it at some point in time that that the system is set up to protect the system. The system is set up to protect the agency and the organization. the mental health system. and that's that's outside that's that transcends the the the firehouse or the police station or the that the f that that transcends this job, whatever this job is for you. The mental health system in our country is set up to protect the people with the money. Let's call that what it is. It's not set up to truly protect and take care of and keep safe the the people that are really struggling. ⁓ And level two to that is there's still a stigma, like right? We still as society wide, and we'll just the well for one, the stigma is still there society wide, out even outside this job in in in all in all facets of life, we still see it. ⁓ on the job, the part of the stigma is perceived weakness. In the same way I don't want somebody who's physically ca incapable of doing the job as my partner. If my partner can't ⁓ physically perform, then then he's a liability to himself, to to us as a crew, to our our citizens that we're looking to protect. And so we we wear that with a badge of honor and and we call out people that that are not physically capable of doing the job, right? And we call them on the carpet. But when it comes so, and when it comes to mentally and emotionally being able to bear the weight of this job, in the same sense, and again, I'm using air quotes here, we don't want somebody who's weak and unable to do the job. And we as a people still see mental health struggles as some type of weakness. ⁓ he's not he's broken. He's got something going on there. I can I really trust him. If he's man, if that call bothered him, I've seen worse than that. Like it's it's and we start trauma comparing. Like like, ⁓ well, that one shouldn't bother you. Like I've seen I've seen ten of those in the last two weeks. So, you know, if that's gonna bother you, then I you you're not gonna make this. You know, you're not gonna make this job. And so I think that's one l layer to it. I do think I do think we're getting getting better as a as a culture ⁓ in the f in the firehouse on the job in the younger generation being willing to sit down and talk about it. Like I can think back a couple months ago we had a earlier in the year we had a a fatality accident. And we talked that day, very briefly, ⁓ and then we went home on four day. And we came back and for some reason that call that call stuck with me. I I don't know why, 'cause I didn't really do much. I wasn't engaged. I was driving the truck that day. Christopher Stockton: I wonder if that's why it stuck with you though. I wonder if you Jason Meinershagen: Well, I don't yeah, I don't know. And actually I take that back. I wasn't driving the truck that day. I was the acting I was the acting captain ⁓ that day. So I was I was running the crew and ⁓ But there was plenty of medic supervisors, paramedics. Like there was nothing for me to do. Like I and I recognize that. Like for me, it's like, hey man, these guys are higher trained than me. There's four paramedics and probably well, our our medical control, our doctor, was in the back of the ambulance. They did a blood transfusion on the scene. ⁓ so I'm like, ⁓ this is above my pay grade. Like I'm, you know, whatever. And for some reason, so I was I wasn't checked out, but I also just recognized like this is not. Christopher Stockton: ⁓ wow. Jason Meinershagen: This is not where I'm gonna, I'm not gonna have an impact here. ⁓ it's in in in saving this guy's life. And that's okay. I accepted that and embraced it. It was like, it just is what it is. ⁓ and then for some reason that call stuck with me over the four-day, and I I wasn't able to shake it. And we came back in first day of the next rotation, and and after shift change and the other shift had left, we're sitting there drinking coffee at the kitchen table, and I just brought it up. I'm like, hey, how are you guys doing with that? And they were both they were like, Yeah, I'm I'm okay, I'm okay. Yeah. It kinda sucks. When we find out the guy died, didn't you know, whatever. And ⁓ I I just because I've ⁓ I I wouldn't have done this twenty years ago. But n knowing what I know now about mental health, I just opened up the door. I'm like, Man, I don't know, for some reason like I couldn't sleep all week. Like I slept like crap. I you know, I'm just just calls on my mind. I don't know why. And we just sat there and we didn't necessarily was kind of like a debrief. But what I found that it did is it opened the door to a conversation where we went down for lack of better terms, it was it was that trauma ⁓ like comparing, like the comparison. Like, yeah, I remember on this one I did that, you know, on on on the on had this one call and we start showing sharing stories. We're not comparing. It's it's not like, ⁓ you know, to in that negative sense of like, ⁓ well you you haven't seen what I've seen or you know, i it it was literally just bringing up old calls that have bothered each of us at some point in time or another. So it was just kind of cathartic. And I think this younger generation of ⁓ of kids, I I call ⁓ kids. I'm ⁓ I've I I've been around long enough, I earned that right. They they are there's they're young men. Yo young men and women. ⁓ That are new to the job. This new generation of of ⁓ of people coming into the job are more aware of it because we've done the a a good job over the last 20 years of having better conversations. And so that's that's one of the levels ⁓ to that. I think one of the other levels, back to your question, I went down a little bit rabbit hole there, but I think one of the other levels to that, to that answer about why it's so hard to have these conversations. is ⁓ we don't know the right questions to ask as a as a as a culture as a people and ⁓ as a crew we we stick with what i would call level one questions hey how you doing we don't go with like down into level two like hey man what what emotions are you feeling you know Christopher Stockton: And I wonder on that. on that token, I wonder if we're honestly scared or y you know, not really consciously but subconsciously if we're not aware that we're scared of asking because it may draw up more fears or emotions in ourselves to ask that, you know what I mean? And I Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, it's possible. I mean, the brain's job is is to protect us and keep us safe ⁓ from from all perceived threat, whether that's a a realistic threat or just something that we make up on and and we perceive it to be a threat. ⁓ and so if our previous experience has shown us or taught us that ⁓ that it's not okay to be vulnerable or that it's Christopher Stockton: Is to protect it. Right. Jason Meinershagen: I'm gonna I'm gonna pull this band-aid off and the arteries gonna I'm I'm gonna bleed out with all the other stuff that I've got packed up in there. If previous experience has taught us that, then that neural pathway is fired and that we take the path of least resistance. ⁓ and we're more likely to stay in that kind of that same that same pathway because the brain the brain is it it it runs off of predictions. It's it's it's predicting what is safe. Christopher Stockton: Right. Jason Meinershagen: based on pr prior experience. So yeah, absolutely. That's a that's a neuroscience kind of answer to that question. Yeah that that absolutely. ⁓ that is that is a component to it. Christopher Stockton: Right. And I I again I think because like you said, we are trying to get it better, we are trying to fix it, I I think a lot of us are now learning or trying to learn ⁓ on how to properly help our other crews and like you said, go from level one to level two. Hopefully later on we can get to, you know, just trying to decompress right after you know, not right after the calls because we like you said earlier, we have to have time to process. But whenever one has that time to process and is able to speak about it, I think once we change the culture, like you said earlier, I I think that would help a lot and be able to stop us from building those neural pathways to resistance. Jason Meinershagen: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agree. Christopher Stockton: And and like you told me in in your show, you know, I I think faith has a lot to do with that as well. I I it sounds weird to say it that way, but I think in our job, if you don't have faith in something, you're going to wind up losing yourself. Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, I've said for years, I don't I don't know how anybody can do this job and not not believe in a God. ⁓ I s I add a God there just because I recognize there's different faith systems. Like I'm I'm a Christian, I'm a Christ follower, I'm child of God. ⁓ I believe in Jesus Christ as the one true Lord and Savior in my life. And ⁓ at the same time, I'm I'm also Christopher Stockton: Right. Jason Meinershagen: You do you, boo. Like that's just I don't know. Like I that's probably not a good model for for Christ's follower because I know that he calls us to go and make disciples and baptize them in my name and like go spread the word and you know so in some sense I've I'm always convicted in in that I'm I'm not the ⁓ poster child for evangelizing Christianity. That's not my strength. That's not my that's not the gift God gave me. to the when when when the Spirit gives us the gift that he did not give me the gift of evangelism and preaching the and and spreading the word. I'll preach the word. I'll get up there and talk. Like I'm a preacher and a teacher and ⁓ you know a leader. ⁓ but I'm yeah. So I I so that's that's my that's my caveat to why I say I don't believe you could do this job and not believe in a higher power. a a big G God. Christopher Stockton: Right. Jason Meinershagen: ⁓ because we all some big G, little G gods. Sorry, just like we all have our gods, ⁓ that that that are idols ⁓ that that motivate us and move us. ⁓ but you know, to that sense, like I'm a and here's where I really adapted that that belief in something higher than ourselves to that can mean different things for different people. That to me it's just like, you know, hey, you do you boo? I I'm Don't force your religion on me. I'm not gonna force mine on you. ⁓ the ⁓ The workout group I'm in. It's called F3. It's Fitness, Fellowship, and Faith. If you anybody that's listening wants to go find it, it's F3Nation.com. ⁓ F with a three. So F3Nation.com. And ⁓ it's it's a it's a it's a men's leadership development group wrapped up as a free workout group for men. Like that's what we do. We work out 5 30 every morning, seven days a week. You can find one. There's thousands of them all across the country. I guarantee you, unless you live in middle of nowhere, Idaho. ⁓ there's there's one near you, and there's probably still one near you up there. ⁓ Yeah, and we work out and then and then we have a ⁓ well coffee afterwards. It's it's free, it's open out it's it's open to all men. ⁓ and it's all that doors and it's led in a pure rotating fashion. So like we we all take turns leading the beat down, leading the workout. ⁓ and then it ends in a circle of trust and that's where the fellowship portion of it comes in, is where we have an opportunity to once once we and and this speaks going back to your like your original question, why don't we share more and open up more? ⁓ at the firehouse. it's that level of trust. Like can I truly trust you to be this vulnerable? And I have sharing sharing. I have shared ⁓ I just shared some of my darkest, deepest secrets, pain, and hurt with my men in F3 that I will never share at the firehouse. ⁓ because I've seen how in the firehouse culture we turn on each other the minute we see a weakness in somebody, we exploit it, we I I this this this was my answer. So this is this Kevin asked question the other day at the at the panel discussion. You know, what's one habit or one thing that we can change to make this job better? And my answer then is still my answer today, is to stop calling it the brotherhood if you're not going to treat me like family. ⁓ my mindset was in a little different space the other day when I answered that question. Today it's in a mindset of like as we're talking about trust and being vulnerable with each other. You know, why would I be vulnerable and share my deepest, darkest pain? with people that I know the minute I leave the room are gonna use that against me and and tear me down in in in front of other people. So that's that's that is that goes back to some of that question. ⁓ that Christopher Stockton: We're gonna think about it. like you said earlier, air quotes, Brotherhood, ⁓ you believed in wasn't showing up for the way you expected ⁓ to, and you pretty much just answered it. But i if you wanna add on to that Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, I'll ⁓ just you know my brief story, I started I started in the fire service career as a as a volunteer in ninety five. In ninety eight I got hired ⁓ to do it as a career. And in in twenty nineteen Christopher Stockton: Sweet. Jason Meinershagen: I took a promotion into the office in 20, sorry, 2020. ⁓ in April of 2020, right at the onset of COVID. Such a bad time. ⁓ to to take a new job. still the same department. Like I was pretty secure, but it's just it was it was wild. Anyway, I I took a promotion into the office as the deputy chief of community relations. ⁓ had a different title back then. The title actually changed like sixteen times over the three and a half years, but At the end of the day that's that's pretty much what I was. I was the public information officer. And ⁓ My relationships changed immediately. Like I didn't see the fracture in the brotherhood right then. I just saw that the relationships changed because now I'm wearing a white shirt. I'm not on the truck anymore. I'm not in the trenches doing the job with the guys. I'm up in the office in some type of formal leadership capacity. ⁓ you know, my my role, I wasn't in the chain of command when it came to making disciplinary action or any of that, like who you report to or who you like I I was outside of the chain of command working and reporting directly to the the fire chief or the fire board. ⁓ and yet those those relationships changed. And I attributed it to, and I still do, I attribute that to ⁓ kind of like battle buddies. Like, you know, when when you go to war and you're in the trenches, the guy next to you is seeing what you see. experiencing and living what you do on a daily basis. And somebody that's back at the command post in in out of harm's way and in safe and secure, drinking coffee and eating donuts, ⁓ not doing the the in the trenches frontline work. ⁓ you know, we just we look at them a little differently. And so that and and and it is what it is. I'm not saying that's right or wrong. To me it it's okay that that those relationships changed the way they did. where I started to see the fracture in the brotherhood ⁓ was Three, two and a half, three years later. So my my brief story was ⁓ like my PTSD journey was public in in ⁓ we'll call it mid twenty twenty. We used my story to put out a video to pass a bond proposal ⁓ for ⁓ for retirement ⁓ and and pension tax. Christopher Stockton: ⁓ wow. Jason Meinershagen: ⁓ for a for a tax increase. And we put four four four videos out there, professionally had ⁓ professionally produced, and one of them was was me sharing my story and my wife sharing her v her her side of our story and my mental health struggles. ⁓ t we t tied it back to one incident where I had a close call, felt like I was gonna die. ⁓ probably should have died, at least been hurt worse, but ⁓ it's the first and only time I've ever been a part of a Mayday on a fire scene, and unfortunately I was the victim. So ⁓ you know there so the three months in the in the time that I was off work, like no longer going a hundred miles an hour, the slowdown from a hundred to zero, like all of that is is is really when all that trauma, ⁓ all of the accumulated trauma over the course of a career kind of started coming up to the surface. So I was pretty Christopher Stockton: So I have a question on that. So didn't mean to interrupt you, but Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, go ahead. Christopher Stockton: I I went out ⁓ after I was injured and I noticed that, you know, the ⁓ the quote unquote brotherhood ⁓ didn't check in on me. ⁓ they kind of threw me to the wayside after I was injured and no one checked in, no one really cared and I I don't know if that was the same for you on that or not. Jason Meinershagen: On that one, on that particular injury, no. ⁓ I I had I had some people checking in on me then, ⁓ and I felt that kind of you know, that support. ⁓ worked my way back to the truck and then three months after I got back to the truck, took a promotion and into the office. ⁓ so I didn't feel it then. However, where I started to feel that is that fracture in the brotherhood was now that my so we're in twenty twenty and my my PTSD journey is very public. ⁓ Christopher Stockton: Gotcha. Jason Meinershagen: hundreds of thousands of views on across multiple platforms ⁓ for this this video this this two to three minute story we put out and I felt like hey this place like my job my superiors my brothers my my people they know they know that he's got some PTSD like it's very clear ⁓ fast forward to 2023 ⁓ I I finally had the bandwidth To file it as a work comp claim and say, hey, this is tied to work. My my mental health, my PTSD, it's diagnosed, it's proven, it's there, it's in the records, has been for three years now. ⁓ I feel like this is tied to work. And so I all I did was send an email and said, Hey, I feel like this is work related. ⁓ and so I'm starting the the the the paper trail, the documentation. ⁓ Immediately put on admin leave. Was very clear up front, like, hey, nothing's changed. Like I'm in a good place. ⁓ I see a therapist every week. ⁓ everything's good. I've I've already processed through all my trauma. Like I already I did EMDR and had had all the breakthroughs and was actually in a much better place than I was in twenty twenty when I took the promotion and then shared that story. ⁓ Yeah, yeah, it was Christopher Stockton: EMDR EMDR is amazing. I've recently gone through it. Jason Meinershagen: It was yeah, it worked it worked wonders for me. And and so ⁓ yeah, I was actually in a better place. And, you know, people ask me all the time, like, Well, why didn't you just file a claim in twenty twenty? It's like, Well, I just you gotta understand, like, I just took a promotion. So now I'm a I'm I'm off the truck, I'm outside of our collective bargaining unit, outside of the sh the the shop and the local and the union ⁓ protection. ⁓ truly an at will employee who's having to l learn and navigate a new job. ⁓ that was changing my expectations on a weekly basis. ⁓ I didn't have the bandwidth to fight two battles. I was I was ⁓ trying to figure out how to how to survive in this job and I didn't have the bandwidth to to fight the battle that I knew I was going to fight once I once I once I pulled that ticket and said, hey, this this PTSD is work related. ⁓ and I and I want the documentation. ⁓ And and when I finally hit that point where I'm like, yeah, I'm I'm I'm ready to fight this battle now, it was a battle. Like it was three months of admin leave. ⁓ the work comp carrier didn't want to pick it up. ⁓ they were tying it to a previous work comp carrier, they didn't want to pick it up. So it was, you know, for three months of just kind of kind of limbo, you can't be released ⁓ to come back to work until you are cleared by a doctor. It's gotta be our doctor. the work comp doctor, but none of the work comp they weren't they weren't picking it up. So it was just kind of in this limbo. It's like after about three months, I finally sent an email to the board and the fire chief and I'm like, hey, this is gonna go on for months. Months. This is gonna go to court. Like this is this is gonna be something that neither one of them are gonna want to do this until a judge orders them to to to pick up the case and send me to send me to the doctor. So I have always wanted to work. I was never asking to be off work. So can I come back to work with ⁓ being cleared by either my doctor or you send me to a doctor and the fire district just pays that bill, like whatever, fronts it, whatever. Just to get me back to work, because otherwise you're paying me a whole lot of money for the next seven months to sit here and do nothing. And I wasn't okay with that. To me, that just I wasn't congruent with who I was. Like I won't want, I wanted to work. I don't I didn't want to, I didn't want to take advantage of the system. And I certainly didn't want to be perceived as taking advantage of the system and that's kinda how it felt. ⁓ well in that three months of being off work, ⁓ one guy, one guy reached out to me in the Brotherhood. ⁓ and and thank God he did. We're still ⁓ we're still real good friends today. I'd call him I'd call him one of my best friends. ⁓ he'd he'd be one of my three that I would probably be the first person I'd call at two o'clock in the morning if if If I had something going on. and everybody else that called me, if they were calling me, they weren't calling me to ask how Jason was doing. They were calling in very surface level, you can, you know, ⁓ you don't have to have the five hundred plus hours of NLP and neuroscience training I have now to to be able to read through that level of questioning where it's th th they're just, hey, they're looking to see what Christopher Stockton: And that right there I think that's Jason Meinershagen: ⁓ Jason's on admin leave in the system. Like, what's going on there? Like they're doing rumor control. Like, ⁓ let's figure out the scoop. What's why's Jason getting paid to do nothing and sit at home, but he's not getting sick. He's all they're not docking my sick time or my vacation time. ⁓ it's admin leave. So it's it's it's paid leave and and it they're all just looking at like, ⁓ what's going on there? What's going on? When are you coming back to work? So they weren't checking in on me. ⁓ and that's that's where I really saw the fracture in the brotherhood. ⁓ And it's a f I it it was I used to call it a break in the Brotherhood. It wasn't a break. ⁓ because I did have one. ⁓ two guys. I had another guy that reached and I'm sitting there talking about it. There was two guys that reached out to me. ⁓ one of ⁓ genuinely talked to him probably two or three times, twenty four times a week. ⁓ so it was just a fracture. Yeah, it's just a fracture in the system and and ⁓ I can still see it today, like even back on the truck now, back to work. ⁓ relationships have changed. It's not the same. And maybe that's just me having my eyes open and now I'm showing up differently. I I I can own I can own my portion in that. Like I'm hundred percent that I'm showing up differently for for ⁓ for work every day and people are probably picking up on that ⁓ picking on that vibe that for me it's it's not a brotherhood anymore. It's just a job. ⁓ and that's okay. Like I I don't I don't I'm not disgruntled. I'm I'm content. I'm happy. My job has blessed me with ⁓ opportunity and and th th beyond what I could have ever imagined. And so I I don't I don't hold grud I'm not I'm not a grudge holder anymore. Like it's just it is what it is. We all show up how we show up and then we and then we move on. And I know I've I've contributed to to to some of that negativity ⁓ that's directed my way. ⁓ and some of what the stress I called it the stress of you got me down a rabbit hole. I I've I've contributed to the like in my three and a half years in the in the public information officer role, it was a it was a very Christopher Stockton: Sorry. Jason Meinershagen: It was a very tenuous relationship with my fire chief and ⁓ and my leadership. It was a stressful time and borderline toxic. It's changed since then. We have new leadership, all new fire chief, all new leadership. ⁓ and so it was much better. in in the time that I was in there ⁓ before my fire chief retired, it was just it was pretty toxic. It was it was pretty ⁓ it was pretty stressful. And I know that I contributed to part of that. Like I can own my portion of it. Whether or not anybody else is man enough to own their part of it, I I don't know. I don't care. Okay. Yeah. Christopher Stockton: So on I I did want to piggyback on that. ⁓ you know, you you did say that you had one or two guys that did check in. ⁓ And to me, you can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but to me those two are so much greater than the fifty or sixty you normally work with because they actually showed the the true emotions, the true Hey man, how you doing? Jason Meinershagen: Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. Christopher Stockton: ⁓ checking in on you, being a true friend, being a true if you want to call it brother in the end. and to me that that speaks more volumes than the others that were starting the rumor mill. Jason Meinershagen: Uh-huh. Yeah. Yep. A hundred percent. I'd rather have ⁓ I'd rather have one to three ⁓ real, genuine, authentic, vulnerable relationships than ⁓ than fifty surface level ones. It's not like Facebook friends. I just Facebook friend. Like most of the people in my life though I I would now I I I w I would have called them friends before. Now I just to me they're acquaintances. Like yeah, we're acquaintances, man. To me a friend is somebody that I talk to on a regular basis and we we know each other and can call each other up and ⁓ yeah, yeah, a hundred percent. Christopher Stockton: You can actually open up. And you know, that's one thing that I think ⁓ co workers and leadership ⁓ should start noticing ⁓ and and starting trying to fix is, you know, once they hear the rumors, once they hear the the stories of people trying to belittle their the the people they work with, you know, they need usually need to nip that in the bud in my opinion. They need to start trying to fix the issues with that because it does create such a havoc on the person that they're speaking about in the end. You know, people may not realize it and it may just start building up so much that they finally call it quits. And and you know, i if if we're honestly going to call it a brotherhood, why not act like it? Why not act like family? Why why belittle each other? Why torment each other to where it is toxic? It it's not an environment that you wanna be in. Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, to me that's ⁓ that's indicative of the corporate world too. You know, if I can make somebody else look bad in the eyes of other people, then it puts me in a and I'm again I'm using their quotes. I'm I'm putting myself in the mind and and I I full disclosure, I've I've contributed to this in my earlier years, right? Like I'm not I'm not I'm not saying I'm innocent here. ⁓ I just recognize it now and I'm I'm better at not contributing. And and walking out of those rooms or standing up and saying what needs to be said. ⁓ yeah, and that's what I'm saying. Like it's human nature to to some sense. It it's it's common for us to bring other people down when our motives are to rise the ranks and move. Like in in I don't know, it's kinda like ⁓ it's it's almost like we see people as competition. Like we're walking in going, Well Christopher Stockton: I mean it's human nature, it really is, but Jason Meinershagen: If I can be better than him, look better than him, appear better than him, then maybe I'm the one that gets the promotion when it when it comes time instead of him. When he and I are sitting at the And that's the that's the wrong way of looking at it. ⁓ that's just I I'd like to say that's human nature. I don't know if it's human nature or if it's just is for for ill ill intent people. 'Cause it's not I don't think it's indicative of everybody. Christopher Stockton: No, I and I agree with that. I think that it's just like you said, I think it's more of a trying to find the weak and take advantage. ⁓ which again we shouldn't do, like you said earlier. And that that kind of starts the whole ladder effect, if you will, of you know, the the Jason Meinershagen: Mm-hmm. Christopher Stockton: the breaking of the trust than the rumors. Jason Meinershagen: Mm-hmm. Christopher Stockton: And and i i i it that kind of You have a lot more experience than this and a lot more knowledge than this, but in my i i it if and when that happens on the job, we sometimes seem to bring it home. We sometimes have to break the job from the home. And that's you know, the and i it's kind of hard for us to bridge that gap. to see what the family gets from us and what the job gets from us. Jason Meinershagen: Mm-hmm. Yeah, the ⁓ the family dynamic is a is a often overlooked and unexplored Topic of discussion. The ⁓ In some in some small way, yes, I signed up for this. I I don't believe that we signed up for it knowing fully what we're we're walking into, but I sa I did sign up for it. ⁓ my wife did not. My kids did not. They they so and yet we carry that home with us. ⁓ you know, for a lot of years. I ⁓ and I see it in I see it in guys still today on the job. ⁓ Christopher Stockton: Right. Jason Meinershagen: I just I mean I saw it last weekend, just even at the conference. Like just we we are not We're present in the room physically, but we're mentally and emotionally somewhere else. We're checked out. It's like the it's like the classic ⁓ movie scene, I think it was American Sniper, when he comes home and he's he's they're panned in on Chris Kyle's face and you hear all of the ⁓ sounds of battle, gunfire and mortars and explosions going on, and as the camera pans out and looks around, he's just staring at a blank screen, sitting in a room while his kids are running around having fun playing. Because that's where he's he's he's he's ⁓ emotionally and mentally in a different place. And we did a similar similar thing. And I I certainly have done it. I still find myself today sometimes doing it. ⁓ of just being somewhere else, being in a being in a different mind space that we're we're not physically checked into the to the family. None. Sorry. We're physically here, but we're not mentally and emotionally checked in. Christopher Stockton: And that actually brought me to next question is, you know, what do you think or w what have you experienced that the accumulated trauma we suffer, ⁓ does to our marriages and our fatherhoods? Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, I mean there's a reason the divorce rate in the in the in the first responder community is as high as it is. I don't know, we're at like seventy some odd percent or something now, the last I saw, but I haven't looked in a while. I know it's it's higher than the fifty, forty. I think I think American I or nationwide we're still in the high forties, low fifties somewhere. ⁓ but it gets higher for us, you know. So ⁓ Christopher Stockton: Yeah. It's high. Jason Meinershagen: I just I think I think what happens is or what I've seen happen with with people is the job changes us. I don't believe that I don't believe you can step into this job for any length of time and not walk out a changed person. ⁓ and we start to two things happen. One of two things happen, I think. Number one, we start to ⁓ emotionally regulate at home. That's almost like a like an offset. Like, hey, if it's if it's chaos at home or sorry, if it's chaos at work, ⁓ then when I come home I I just I I I'm just checked out. ⁓ people are check you know, we just we just check out and we're just we disengage. We stop losing interest in the things that that that that drive us, that motivate us, ⁓ things we used to have fun in with doing before up to and including sex. That's that's decreased sex drive is is one of those things. And so, you know, I'm sharing some of that for the spouses in the room that are listening going, like what are the what are the signs and symptoms of how my husband's or my wife has changed. ⁓ like that's one of them. If their sex drive is not what it was when you first married, ⁓ that that ⁓ it might be it might be related to to what's going on. With the job and in the head. ⁓ number two. How I see it affect us is when we come home from the chaos. of 48 hours, we're used like our minds are ⁓ attuned to the chaos and the disruption and the the unpredictable, the unexpected. And so oftentimes we we come home and when we don't have that chaos for four days in a row, we find ways to create it. ⁓ yeah. Yeah, that's why you see ⁓ man, I could name Christopher Stockton: We're all immersed enemy sometimes. Jason Meinershagen: Just right now, six guys came to mind that are having affairs in my department. There's that are stepping outside their marriage. ⁓ and it it I you know, if you went under the surface, you I I guarantee you you're gonna find more. Because they're and I don't I don't know that I ⁓ to me I think that's just a that's ⁓ like just that's just that self sabotage. Like it's I gotta create some chaos. I gotta find ways to to to spice this up and make it more challenging. ⁓ and we don't Christopher Stockton: ⁓ wow. ⁓ I'm sure. Jason Meinershagen: That's all subconscious. I don't think we like consciously walk in and go, Hey, my life is pretty good right now. I think I think I'm gonna go I think I'm gonna go ⁓ have an affair with somebody because I don't have enough chaos in my life. Like right. That's not the it's not a conscious decision. It's all all working under the surface. Christopher Stockton: I'm gonna screw this up today. Right. And y you know, that that kinda brings me to my next one is, you know, what has recovery required from you yourself as a husband, a father, and a and a poppy? Jason Meinershagen: Mm. What has asked that again, what has recovery required of me? Christopher Stockton: Yes, sir. Jason Meinershagen: Hundred percent investment. Like I yeah. Short answer. Like a hundred percent. I mean it's it's hard work doing the internal self self work. ⁓ hundred percent worth it as ⁓ on the other end of that. ⁓ For me it took walking in I don't know if I shared the story when we had you on the silent war within, but I've shared it many times. When my boys were ⁓ toddlers, their older sister would have been some seven, eight, nine, probably nine. It'd have been f they'd have been like five and three. I came home from work. I think I actually came home from a dispatch shift 'cause I I remember it being in the evening. ⁓ But it had been one of those dispatch shifts where I went straight to dispatch after a firehouse shift. So like I hadn't seen the kids in easily two to three days. ⁓ I come home and I was actually that day I was having a pretty good day. Like I I I felt like I was like to me, it's just another regular day. ⁓ not emotionally taxing. I was in a good headspace, mentally and emotionally feeling really good. ⁓ tired, just physically, right? But Otherwise like I'm looking forward to being home and being with my kids and my people. And I I live in a split level. So I walked in the house and I closed the door and immediately have to decide if I'm going to go up or down. which is why if you're listening, don't ever buy a split level because if you're if you if you ever tire of decision fatigue is a thing. Decision fatigue is a thing. So if decision fatigue is a thing for you, split level is not where you wanna live because you immediately have to make another decision first thing. You walk in the door and you just lot of times I'm just like, man, I don't want to make a decision. I'm just gonna stay here. And that's what I did. I stayed at the bottom of the steps at at the at the landing, ⁓ for like 30 seconds. And I just I'm just like I mean, I knew where I was gonna go, but I was I I was absorbing the sounds and the atmosphere of the house. Neuroscience tells us that our energy precedes us into the room by thirty three feet. It's that's physically proven. Like our it's it's interesting stuff to go watch and and see. But our physical like our energy precedes us into the room by thirty-three feet. That's why you can that's why you can walk into a room and immediately sense like, ⁓ man, like what's going on in here? Like just the hairs on the back of your head stand up because it's tense like nobody can be saying anything and you can just feel the tension. ⁓ or you can feel the the excitement, you know, ⁓ in in in a room. So that's a real thing. And so knowing that now, I didn't know that then. Knowing that now, it's interesting because I'm sitting at the bottom of the steps and I hear my kids, they're they're upstairs, they're giggling, they're having fun, they're playing, they're rough housing, they're laughing. It's just a joy filled home as three kids and their their mom are just playing and having fun and doing what kids should do, like just living a carefree that's just another carefree evening, waiting for waiting for dad to come home. And dude the instant. The they realized I was downstairs, that I was home. Like probably thirty seconds of that. Within thirty seconds they realized that Dad was home and it was it the the energy and the atmosphere immediately shifted to sh on edge as they were nervous and and anxious, probably a little fearful about which version of daddy was was coming home tonight. And so for me, like that was the gut punch. That was the probably the first of many gut punches ⁓ that I remember over the years that stacked. And like I didn't recognize I didn't w unfortunately for me, I didn't say immediately right then, like, ⁓ man, there's a problem. I need to probably go see a therapist. Like right? It was probably another seven years before I realized like ⁓ I that was like the step, the first step in the in the wrong of the ladders that led me to the point where I finally have fry finally kind of broke. ⁓ and so what does it re Yeah. Yeah, so so what does it require of us to to to to be h to to recover, to heal and to be healthy is Christopher Stockton: Yeah, you we did talk about that on the podcast. We did talk about that on your podcast as well. Jason Meinershagen: one and awareness that there's a problem. Like for me I had to recognize there was a problem. ⁓ I had to recogni and admit and and own it and be like, man, I'm the problem here. Like this it's just not their fault. I'm on edge. I'm always sh short tempered. ⁓ I'm frustrated at little things. ⁓ I'm having little fits of rage and the I call it the ⁓ I don't know like the mental breakdown. Like the ⁓ The like the crash out, you know, when when something doesn't when I'm working on the on a sink trying to fix a a leaky sink and it's not going the way I want it to and the timing that I want it to. So I start cussing and swearing and just having this mental like crash out, you know. And and all those little things stack up to to a point where you're like, Man, maybe I am the problem. the other thing it took is ⁓ man, I took the support of my wife. I couldn't have done it without her. We've reached a point now, like we talk about ⁓ I I hear this from both men and women in the job. When when we don't want to share our trauma and our our like our un come home and unload all that on our on our spouses. ⁓ I see it in men outside the fired service because as men we're we're in it's ingrained into us to be the provider, the protector, the person that's that's carrying, you know, I'm I'm I'm the one that stands out in front of the family taking all the arrows. ⁓ I'm the one that takes the cut so that you guys don't have to. And so for us to open up and be vulnerable with spouse, with our wife, ⁓ to that's that's pretty rare. ⁓ and it was for me for a long time because I recognized that like for me, it's like I I mean, I signed up for this. This is not this is not your burden to carry. ⁓ and this is early on. ⁓ this is my mis my misguided belief was like, hey, this is not your burden to carry, this is my burden to carry. ⁓ and and what I started to recognize was that I don't remember where I I wish I had the epiphany or the remembering of a of of the epiphany, like that just that that wake up moment. ⁓ but now I look back and I I know that ⁓ God brought the two of us together for a reason and for a purpose. Scripture tells us that we're where there were two, now there's one. And in the confines of a marriage, if you can't be vulnerable and share with your spouse your deepest, darkest secrets and pain and hurt. Probably the wrong marriage. ⁓ and that's hard to say. And I would never I would never encourage divorce. I'm not saying that. What I'm saying is you you guys need some work. You need to have some real hard conversations. because where where there were two, there's one. Like I the analogy I shared last week is ⁓ she's half of me. How could I not tell her what's going on? You know, she's half of me. She deserves to know. She does she doesn't have to know. Christopher Stockton: Yeah. Build on communication. Jason Meinershagen: All of the gory details. She doesn't need to know that I saw a guy get electrocuted and e exploded into fifteen thousand different pieces and we were picking body parts up everywhere from, you know, t a house ho two hundred feet away, whatever she doesn't need all that. But she needs to know I had a hard day. Christopher Stockton: Right. Jason Meinershagen: Right. She needs to know that that man, I'm really struggling. We had a really hard call. ⁓ somebody died. I'm really struggling with what's going on in my head and the vision the the the sights, the sounds, the smells. ⁓ and I need some space and and let's figure that out together. And so, like over the years, she and I just kind of developed this unwritten almost like this look, where if we're out in public and something ⁓ something would activate me. I don't like the word triggered. If something activated that that that fight or flight like trauma response in me, ⁓ I would I would be able to just look at her and kind of give her the nod like I'm I'm done. Like I need a minute. Either I'm done, we need to go, or I'm gonna step outside for a little bit. For the longest time I would just step outside and she it would frustrate her. She's like, You're never like you always I we we'd go to family and I'd be out sitting outs I'd be sitting outside on the back porch 'cause it's like, yeah, I'm just I'm I I can't people right now. I just need to be on my own. You know, and she finally we were able to figure that out. So I guess what I'm saying there is that step two is like is that communication with your partner and understanding. Like it doesn't have to be the same for everybody. It can look differently for everybody. ⁓ some spouses are on the job and they they might want to know and be able to handle all the gory details. ⁓ some of them are not on the job and can probably still handle more than we think they can handle. ⁓ but the reality is as a couple you get to find and be intentional about finding ways to communicate when you're struggling and what you need to recover and then work together to to meet that need. Sometimes it's just stepping outside for ten, fifteen minutes in the twenty degree twenty twenty degree weather at Christmas time when the inside of the house is going crazy with everybody having fun, being be being normal. Christopher Stockton: Sir, we're we're first responders, we're not normal. Jason Meinershagen: Yeah. Yeah, I know that's what I'm saying. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes and sometimes it's it's, you know, hey, come to therapy with me and or just support me in going to therapy or whatever. Like it's it's different for all of us. And what works for me is not gonna work for everybody else and what works for them doesn't work for us. So it's just it's just being intentional about finding what does work for you in your specific situation with you and your partner and and finding ways to to work together because Christopher Stockton: Right. Jason Meinershagen: Two became one. She's half of you. Christopher Stockton: I love that that I I've never heard that and I love that that that's the first time I've heard that phrase and that's that's awesome. And it's true, and and if you think about it as well as two is always better than one when it comes to trying to heal yourself. And you can't heal yourself without honestly healing your family. Jason Meinershagen: Mm-hmm. Christopher Stockton: You know, Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, I mean that's a good point. That's scriptural too. We're where, you know, two are better than one and a strand of three chords is is unbreakable, right? So be careful then. I'm not telling you to have two wives. The the three is three is better than two, but that's for me, that's like the therapy. You know, so we're gonna digress here in a minute, man. I'm sorry. ⁓ yeah. So 'cause I guarantee ya, out of the six guys that I just saw, like, how bad six guys are having an affair. I guarantee ya if I would tell them that I'd be like, ⁓ see, yeah, you just you Christopher Stockton: Yeah. Jason Meinershagen: You just you just confirmed. Now I know. But no, no, that's not what I'm saying. That's not what I'm saying. Please, please. ⁓ Yeah, man, like that's Christopher Stockton: And you We are not we are not we are not saying to go have d affairs people. Just just throw that out there. Jason Meinershagen: No, no, no, not at all. No. Just find your people and and ⁓ and pour into them. Be vulnerable, be open. I mean for better or worse, right? How how can you how can you live through better for worse together as a couple if you keep the worst to yourself? Christopher Stockton: Yes, sir. Very true. So I wanted to touch on one more thing before we almost close out. ⁓ I I don't get to talk to a lot of dispatchers a lot of the time. So I know you spent 15 years in dispatch. ⁓ what do the f field crews misunderstand about the person behind the radio? You know, what how how do y'all normally 'cause you've worked both. So you know when we're on the trucks, we kind of cuss dispatch, we you know secretly hate them, if you will, and we misunderstand what they're going through. Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, I think it's I don't think they see the person behind the behind the radio. So it's it's a easy They're they're an easy soft target because they're ⁓ they're they can be the punching bag for our frustrations when something doesn't go right because they're a faceless person. Right? It's just like, ⁓ I don't even know who that is. I just hear a voice. ⁓ and but I I think I think the reality is, like I think I I don't know how you could do it in our in our community because this one dispatch for twenty different agencies. I don't know, it's insane. ⁓ but in those agencies where you where you are a municipal agency all working under the same the same umbrella, same paycheck, same same same person signing your paycheck, ⁓ the ⁓ like th there's no reason why as a police officer, ⁓ firefighter or medic in those situations that you shouldn't go be mandatory to do a week in dispatch. ⁓ And I see that some places, you know, bigger departments where they they they kind of rotate through and sometimes that's to trouble people, like, hey, you got in trouble. Let's go put ⁓ in dispatch for a month. That'll that'll that'll shape him up. ⁓ and some people some some agencies actually do it for the for the for the right purpose to to kind of give them that exposure. ⁓ or because they're short staffed in dispatch, but regardless. The the go ahead. Christopher Stockton: I I worked for an agency. I worked for an agency that you it was mandatory to go do a week. ⁓ you're not allowed you you go work on the truck. If you're gonna go work on the truck, you have to be in dispatch for a week. That way you understand what they're going through. And I think that kind of opens your eyes to the effects that they feel that we don't realize. Jason Meinershagen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think if there's one message I could do I could convey to the people in the field, it's that the person on the other side of the radio signed up for the same reason you did. They're there to help people. They have the best of intentions. Are they gonna screw it up? Yeah, guess what? So do so do you. ⁓ but their intentions are are are honorable. And they're understaffed, they're underpaid, they're underappreciated. When something goes wrong, on any call, any like how many supervisors are calling up to dispatch to complain? So they're feeling all those all it all all the time. The The ability to show up on a on an emergency incident, visually assess, auditorily assess, kinesthetically assess. what's going on. Use all five of your senses to assess what's going on. And then develop a incident action plan in the moment to mitigate that emergency. And then to carry out that plan and put it into fruition. Is a blessing. Somebody that's on the other end of the line, they have one sense. They have they could they could hear. I can't see you. I can't feel what's going on in this moment. I can't all I can do is hear what information I'm getting. And I have to process that. I have to paint a picture of a scene before you get there so that you know what you're walking into with the best ability possible. I have to paint that picture using nothing but what I've heard in a two to three minute tops conversation. And in that two to three minute conversation with somebody, they're screaming so freaking loud I can't understand them. They're hysterical. They're saying the same things over and over and over again. The first 30 to 45 seconds is just calming them down enough that I can get their address. Right? So it's an emotionally charged atmosphere. ⁓ Where we don't have all the information, because we don't have all five senses available to us. We only have what information is shared with us based on the questions that that that we that we're able to ask. And sometimes we whether we ask the question or not, I mean we could ask all the best questions and still get the wrong information. ⁓ I shared this story. I'll share this story again. I'll leave the names out. A fire captain from a rural ⁓ department in my state used to be a volunteer for us before we before I got hired in ninety eight. It's so it happens to us all. That's the only reason I give that context. Came across a motor vehicle accident on ⁓ on the interstate at the interchange of one interstate and another interstate. And he called out eastbound. No, sorry, he called out that he was on westbound and was adamant I'm westbound, I'm westbound, I'm westbound. Said it six, seven, eight times. I'm westbound on this highway at this location. I was working the truck that day, so I didn't actually, but I he was he was he did this on the radio, so we got to hear the radio traffic. And I I and I'll come back to why I'm using this as an example. Our truck, we get there, we're going westbound. We should have come across it at the interchange. We didn't. We called him. Hey, we're we're we're coming up on the area. We don't see you where you at? Go, I'm westbound right here. You can't miss me. So we took the One of two choices. Fifty fifty guessed. We guessed and we went one direction. And as soon as we did, realized we should have gone the other direction. Because we could look back and see where he was. He was eastbound. He was eastbound. Fifteen times he said, I'm westbound, I'm westbound, I'm westbound, westbound, westbound. Yeah, he was eastbound. He d he dunno he done, you know. And so I use that story to share like how many times I've taken calls from people that think they know where they're at. They think they know what's going on. But in the moment they've got this tunnel vision and they don't they don't have the ability to control that. And so they're given misinformation. Well, they're they're they're northbound. They're e whatever. Fill in the blank. I've I've seen it on on on the highway. I've seen it on ⁓ I've seen it with with you know addresses like, hey, I'm at this address, I'm at one two three Main Street. You send somebody to one two three Main Street and there's nobody there. And so you you're you get back with the caller and you're like, hey, ⁓ we got officers and police, you know, firefighters outside your door. There's nobody here. There's nobody here. Confirm your address for me one more time. Well, I'm at 321 Oak Street. Earlier you said 123 Main Street. ⁓ no, my bad. That's where my that's that's that's where I used to live. Like we moved two years ago. Right? I whatever, fill in the blank. Like, but the the reality is who's gonna get the brunt of that? abuse that that somebody screwed up. That's gonna be the dispatcher. Right? It doesn't matter. It's always the dispatcher's fault. So I don't know. Long story short there, but that's like for me it's just have a better understanding that that that they're there for the right reasons. They're not getting paid to be there. They're not getting paid well to be there. So to to do what they do, they're they're doing it with the best of intentions. So cut them all slack 'cause ain't no ain't not a single one of us perfect. That's my old that's my old school hit coming out. Ain't not a one single one of us. Perfect. Christopher Stockton: So So so what is the lack of closure due to the dispatchers? Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, that's a tough one, dude. Like that's ⁓ I had I I shared this the other day too. Like I can W when it comes to closure and when it comes to ⁓ what we see. Closure is difficult because they don't get the closure. Sometimes we don't get the closure either, and that's okay. They never get the closure. Ninety if if we get closure 75% of the time, fifty percent of the time, they get it like one percent of the time. ⁓ where I think it's a bigger deal is as a firefighter. Christopher Stockton: ⁓ wow. Jason Meinershagen: ⁓ as a police officer, as a paramedic, I have seen and we have seen some horrific scenes. As a dispatcher, I've imagined much worse based only on what that phone call is telling me. Like I can I dude, I can imagine in my head worse than I've seen on the job. ⁓ and that's brutal because it that's Christopher Stockton: ⁓ wow. Jason Meinershagen: It's yeah, that's a that's a harder and that that trauma excuse me, that trauma of imagining what a scene looks like and listening to a mom scream in the background as her kid is dying or ⁓ or listening to A mom screaming while her son is inside the the burning house still. Whatever fell in the blank. Like those scenes are just as hard to imagine as they are to actually witness. And we don't as a as a community we don't give that enough enough attention. Christopher Stockton: Yeah. So I got a couple of quick hits I wanted to ask you real quick. So first thing that comes to your mind, so what's the biggest lie burnout tells us? Jason Meinershagen: Mm-hmm. Shoop. What's the biggest lie that burnout tells us? ⁓ that I got this. Christopher Stockton: Yes, sir. Yeah. So rank or influence. Jason Meinershagen: In a positive way, influence if we're going for the right with the positive answer. Yeah, for me it's influence. Like you can lead from anywhere in the truck. It doesn't it doesn't matter. It took me a long time to realize that like I spent most of my career shooting for rank, then I got it, didn't want it. I probably made a bigger impact in my time as the senior guy in the truck than I have with with a couple bugles. Christopher Stockton: That works. So what's one thing every chief should understand about mental health? Jason Meinershagen: Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it's not there. ⁓ Yeah, I mean think about like ⁓ you fall through a floor and break your back, break your leg. I can see that on an X ray. I can't s I can't see the mental and emotional and moral injury. Christopher Stockton: That's the best way I've heard that one. Right. What are dependable right? So what do dependable people need to hear? Jason Meinershagen: But it's still there. Dependable people need to hear Keep being dependable. Keep showing up. Keep being you. Christopher Stockton: One word for healing. Jason Meinershagen: Recovery. Christopher Stockton: And what would Jason tell Deputy J Chief Jason? Jason Meinershagen: Don't do it. ⁓ man, I've had I've actually answered that question before just in my own dialogue. What would I tell What would I tell myself in that time frame? Don't give up. At the end of the day it's it'll it's Just keep being you. Keep showing up as you. Keep doing your thing. And ⁓ Be there for your people. It's all that matters. Christopher Stockton: Very true. Fishing or hunting? Jason Meinershagen: Fishing. Christopher Stockton: ⁓ come on now. Jason Meinershagen: ⁓ yeah. I I enjoy both, but I there's nothing better than being on the water. Christopher Stockton: What's the best firehouse meal and worst firehouse cook? Jason Meinershagen: Best firehouse meal? ⁓ man. ⁓ I don't know, you c ⁓ I I'm a I'm a meat and potatoes kind of guy. I like it all mixed up. I mean I'll eat anything. I like a good burger or a good meatloaf. ⁓ meatloafs are easy because you can put it in the oven. or smoker and let it just go all day. Chili's a good one. Same purpose, same reason. Like you can just put it anything you can put in a crock pot ⁓ and just come back to at any point in time in the day is is a unbeatable firehouse meal. ⁓ what was the second half of that question? Christopher Stockton: Worst cook, worst firehouse cook. Jason Meinershagen: The worst fian I I don't want to name names. I've got a couple of names that come to mind. the worst firehouse cook is the guy who only has one thing in his in his repertoire. Like that's my that's my advice to my young kids when they come in the job. Like, dude, go go learn three meals, man. If you learn three meals, how to cook three meals in the fire service, you you've just made it a month. In in my job, because it Christopher Stockton: I figured that. True. Jason Meinershagen: There's four of us at the station. We work a forty eight ninety six. So I'm really only cooking once every two rotations. If you learn three, you just dude, you just survived a month. That's you're almost done with the year. Christopher Stockton: Ha ha ha. Jason Meinershagen: And by the time you go back to you know, by the time you do one, two and then three, you come back to number one, it there it's it's been a month since you had it. So it's ⁓ yeah, learn learn three good three good recipes to start with. And then I don't know, just keep expanding. Christopher Stockton: So to close, what does the person need to hear tonight before they lose themselves completely to a job that was only supposed to be part of their life? Jason Meinershagen: Ask that again. What does what? Christopher Stockton: What does that person need to hear tonight before they lose themselves completely to a job that was only supposed to be part of their life? Jason Meinershagen: Huh. You got me on that one. I'll share with you. I'll share more with you offline about why that is an emotional visceral response for me. ⁓ let's just suffice it to say that the suicide rate amongst our retirees needs some work. What does the person Christopher Stockton: Very true. Jason Meinershagen: Need to hear. That you're worth it, man. Don't don't Don't think for a minute that your absence from this life Solves any problems. Christopher Stockton: Yeah. Jason Meinershagen: it it creates more. Your sudden absence will create more problems. than your long-term commitment to stick around. And you're worth sticking around. ⁓ I don't care if you feel like you're at the Like you're at the end of your rope? And that nobody is nobody's here for you. Somebody will be impacted by your life. So keep showing up. When you don't know what to do next, just do the next right thing. There is no quit. Because you sunset your career and step into retirement doesn't mean you get to quit on life. So stick around. Christopher Stockton: Damn, that's deep. ⁓ so if people wanna follow your work or reach out to you, where can they go? Jason Meinershagen: Yeah, the bulk of my you can reach me on ⁓ or find most of my stuff on ⁓ on the internets, the interwebs at ⁓ fivearrowsforge dot com. That's where you'll find my my coaching, my speaking opportunities if you want to have me come in and speak. ⁓ I just launched over the last month a mental health ops course for first responders. It bridges the gap between awareness level ⁓ of mental health. and the technician level or the specialist level when we start needing clinical clinical help. It it's think about hazmat or any other specialty rescue, ⁓ you know, you have your awareness, your ops, ⁓ technician and a specialist. And mental health has been at an awareness level in our field for thirty years at least. ⁓ and yet we still don't put real tools in the hands of our people to mitigate and build to mitigate the the the the mental health emergency ⁓ or build mental resilience we don't put those hands in the those tools in the hands of our people until it's a problem and they have to go seek until it's a crisis and they have go seek outside clinician c clinical support. ⁓ So what I've created in the mental health ops ⁓ program is is just that. It's neuroscience based tools, NLP, neurolinguistics programming based tools that are ⁓ applicable on the tailboard of the firehouse, of the of the truck, at the kitchen table, ⁓ and the transition into back into into home life ⁓ at the end of the shift that that really just bridge that gap between awareness and and clinician level help. ⁓ so yeah, you can find that at five EurosForge dot com. On the socials, ⁓ it's a little bit different. You can find me at Five Eurosforge on the socials as well, but most of my social media following is ⁓ a note from dad, which is my second passion is is fatherhood and the the role that we we as men play in in leading our families, ⁓ and showing up for our kids with the best version of ourselves. That's that's that's a whole story of me coming home and and realizing my kids were asking which version of dad was coming home. That's kind of what that's born out of, is just showing up for our kids with the best version of ourselves. ⁓ instead of saving that for the people that are at work. ⁓ so yeah, a note from dad ⁓ would be where you can find me there on the on the socials. Christopher Stockton: Awesome. So Jason, I appreciate what you're doing. We have plenty of people pointing at the problem, ⁓ but there's very few trying to help find solutions. So You know, you're doing that with Five Arrows Forge, you're doing that with A Silent War Within and you're fighting for it for all of us. You're not just trying to mitigate or help one department. and that's hopefully everyone hears the right conversations, either from my podcast, Jaw's podcast, and tries to get more information about how to help each other. Jason Meinershagen: Mm. Yep, we're gonna be here for each other 'cause the system's not. So yeah, and that's a good reminder too. Thanks for the plug in the Silent War Within. That's that's kind of ⁓ still n still very new to me. I've only been helping with for a couple of months now and it's it's been a blessing to be a part of that. So Silent War Within dot com. Yeah. Christopher Stockton: Very true. It's a damn good podcast. Hit stop. They get stopped.