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REWIND: Teams That Aren't Here Anymore · Pittsburgh Sports Memories

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to another episode of Pittsburgh Sports Memories.
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: And um in this episode, we'll be going over sports franchises that aren't here anymore.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_02: As usual, I'm your host, Steve Wirt, and I'm with uh our co-host.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_02: Hey everybody, I'm Tim Hannon.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_02: Alrighty, and um not all the pro sports teams have had the staying power, like our Penguins, Pirates, and Steelers, which I think have kind of become you know the three major pro sports franchises in town.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's hard to argue that.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: But uh things like uh for the older people, Westview Park or service merchandise, or if you're old enough to have gone to Metropole, uh all things in Pittsburgh that have come and gone.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh we're gonna have to cover uh sports pro sports franchises that uh didn't make it.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: And uh some of some of them won championships, some of them um really don't, you know, didn't do too well, and some were just you know left because you know, maybe bad management or just bad luck, but they all left a um a lasting impact, so we'll go over that.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_02: So the the start off the first, we'll start with uh Pittsburgh had their had an arena football league team.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_02: They were named the Gladiators, and they actually played from 1987 to 1990.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_02: They played four seasons by my count.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um they played their games in the um Civic Arena.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: They played um, I think they played like a summer, like a spring summer schedule.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I think after back in the 80s, what the Stanley Cup, I think was over by like June.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: So, and their season finished up in August.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_02: So they kind of tried to have the bulk of their season exist after hockey season and before pro football.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_02: They kind of they overlapped a lot with hockey, but I think they tried to push it beyond that.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: In their first inaugural season, they drew over 11,000 fans a game, which is pretty pretty strong attendance number.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_02: And also they they had a pretty good team.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: They made it all the way to Arena Bowl I and they lost to Denver 45 to 16.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: And that game, uh Arena Bowl I was played in the Civic Arena.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh just some players, some memorable players from uh that team was uh Russell Harrison.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: He was the team's leading receiver.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_02: He ended up uh being a replacement player for the Steelers in 1987.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_02: Another guy was a guy named Mike Stoops, you might recognize is Bob Stoops' younger brother.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: He played uh receiver for the Gladiators that season.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um he also went on to be a head coach at uh Arizona and an assistant at Oklahoma, Alabama, and a ton of other places.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: He's been a coach for a very long time.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um so now we skip to the second season in 1988.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um their coach of the Gladiators, Jim Herring, he traded uh Russell Harrison, and a le losing streak uh ensued, and um because of that losing streak, uh the team lost some fans.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: So uh it was uh kind of a down season that second season.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think they even make the playoffs.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then in the offseason between 1988 and 89, there was a big dispute in the Arena Football League uh between the founder of the league, Jim Foster, and some of the other owners.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the league actually almost folded that offseason.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_02: So going into 1989 season, the arena football league only had four teams, and the Gladiators were still one of them.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_02: So during that season, the Gladiators actually only played one home game.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: So they're already losing attendance and interest, and now like the next season they only play one game.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: So that probably didn't help things.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and uh so basically that whole 1989 season, they kind of played like barnstorming, they went around to team to cities that didn't have like uh a pro sports team, and I guess it was like a selling, like they're trying to sell like hey, or bring arena football to your town.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_02: And uh one of the fun things that happened during that that uh barnstorming season was uh Jim Herring punched league president and founder Jim Foster during a game in Sacramento.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_02: So that's part of the barnstorming.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: Actually, Sacramento did not have a team at that point, and they were just I forget who they were playing with.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: The Gladiators were playing one of the other four teams, and he decided to there was a big fight on the side sidelines.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: We'll have a link to the article on our website if you want to read more about it.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: But uh that year the team had a guy named Willie Totten.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: He was uh he was their quarterback, he was Jerry Rice's quarterback in college.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um so in '89, I mean, I guess it still counts.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_02: They went to Arena Bowl III, and they actually played this game in Detroit, and the game was played in old Joe Lewis Arena.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they lost that arena bowl 39-26, so they're actually 0-2 in Arena Bowls in Pittsburgh.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_02: In 1990, uh, the team was bought by a guy named Bob Grice, I think, or Grease, I don't know how sure how to pronounce.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_02: He was a minority owner of the Cleveland Browns.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um by that point, the team had only played one game in Pittsburgh over the last 23 months, so almost in two years.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: So they've really been non-existent in Pittsburgh in two years, quite honestly.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so the fans uh lost interest.
• 6:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, the Pirates were getting good, and the Penguins had Mario at that point.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: So, you know, the they were both those teams were building a strong fan base.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: And you gotta remember back in those early to mid-80s, the penguins weren't quite as entrenched as they have become now because Mario just showed up in '84.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: So that's kind of gonna become a theme through some of these like sports franchises, especially the ones in the 80s, that the penguins weren't quite as strong as they were.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_02: So there were I think there was a lot of jockeying in the 70s and 80s to be there was the Pirates and the Steelers who had the two spots locked up for pro sports, but I think everybody realized that there was room enough in this town for at least one more pro sports franchise, and who that was going to be hadn't been decided yet.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: So attendance uh dropped to 5,289, second, which was second worst in the league, and the team moved to Tampa Bay, and they became the Tampa Bay Storm.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, the Tampa Bay Storm ended up winning five arena championships, and they were probably the most successful arena franchise in arena league history.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the storm folded in 2017 with the rest of the arena football league, which has been folded now as of this 2021 four years.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if it'll ever come back.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_02: It was definitely a cheap ticket, it was kind of like minor league football, probably the most successful minor league football league ever outside of the AFL, you know.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: I would say that, you know.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_02: But unfortunately, like uh, you know, it just didn't have lasting staying power in Pittsburgh, and it's probably due to like some poor ownership, you know, there going on.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: Any any uh do you remember anything about the gladiators, Tim?
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: I vaguely remember them.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I definitely don't remember that their owner punched the league founder or their coach, I mean.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yeah, you know, a a little bit.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: I I I never I certainly did not realize that they had 11,000, they were drawing 11,000 people a game in the first season.
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's really impressive for a new new league.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: And and the thing that I always liked about the arena league was that they took football and they tried to do just something completely different with it.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: And you can call it a gimmick or whatever with the the arena field.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: But I like all these XFL and the the one that I forget the one that came a couple years ago, the AAFL Amer Association of Americans.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and then there was one even a few years before that that like um I I mean anytime those leagues come along, you're like, okay, this is interesting, and they try to play it in the spring or whatever, and you turn tune in a game and it's like, okay, so this is regular football with guys that are way less caliber than what I'm watching in the pros.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: And and arena football didn't try to do that.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: They were like, okay, this is this is football, but it's a completely different game, and you know, you have to think about different things, you have to have a different skill set.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's why it was successful for as long as it was, because it actually tried to do something just radically different instead of just trying to be another football league.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so I it's a shame.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's kind of a bummer that Pittsburgh didn't have a team for longer because the league did take off, like you said, and it would have been fun to see if I don't know that Pittsburgh could have supported that or not, but it would have been fun to see.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: I I think the problem with it was too, it was during the summer, so it was kind of competing with the pirates a lot, and that that might have hurt them.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: Plus, like their prices that like the price to get in like from what I I remember reading about arena league games, like you could get you could take a family of four there for less than like thirty to fifty dollars, if I remember correctly, and like the drinks were more reasonable.
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: So they I think they kind of had that going for them too to help them compete, you know, against the bigger teams.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: It was truly a minor league for and they developed quarterbacks, quarterbacks came out of that league, like Tommy Maddox and obviously Kurt Warner, and right, you know, so but onward and upward.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um moving on, and this is definitely a team that neither of us were alive to uh see or experience, and it's a shame.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_02: And I it's a shame that we haven't covered them before this, and so kind of an oversight on at least on my part.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure Tim Tim thinks a lot about them.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um the Homestead I think all the oversight sure on your part.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I agree.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the Homestead Grays, which I did not realize they lasted this long.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_02: The Homestead Grays, which from 1912 to 1951, they had 38 seasons.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_02: They won 11 league titles in three Negro World Series.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they're founded as a sandlot and an industrial team.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: I guess think like the Green Bay Packers.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: I guess they had one of the steel mills maybe at Homestead sponsored them, which would make sense.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they were bought by a gentleman named Cumberland Posey in the 1920s.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: He was a former uh player who turned manager and owner.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_02: He's actually in the baseball hall of fame.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: He was elected in 2006.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um the team was one of the longest lasting in those leagues.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um they played in the Negro National League in the second Negro National League.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um and actually uh probably one of the more reasons they're more well known is they played like a lot of their games in Washington, D.C.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_02: in the later, I think in the war years, they they split their games between Pittsburgh and Washington, D.C.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, a lot of players that people I think people know about Josh Gibson.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think so.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_02: Do you've heard of Josh Gibson, right?
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, of course, yeah.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I mean Yeah, certainly.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, arguably could you know you could make the argument that he was the greatest home run hitting um baseball player ever, but you'll never really know the answer to that because he wasn't given the call the chance to play against the other competition.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: He was he was a home run hitting catcher.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: He had three different stints with the team from 1930-31, 37 to 39, 42-46.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: He is credited with 238 home runs, but it's probably more because they did a lot of barnstormings and they didn't really keep track of stats the way they do now.
• 12:28
  SPEAKER_02: And um, and he's an interesting character, and like like you hear like he they played in Forbes field and they played in his Green League field, but he had a lot, like there's tales of him like hitting like the ball like really far.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like he was a very good player.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um the Grays became an independent team.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um oh, they had six consecutive tenants from 1937 to 1942.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_02: They became an independent team after 1948, um, when the MLB desegregated um with Jackie Robinson, uh breaking the color barrier in 1946, and that's what kind of doomed the you know the Negro Leagues, which I mean it's sad, but it's like a I guess a good thing at the same time.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, you know.
• 13:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um in 1951, the team finally disbanded.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um another fun thing, uh fun fact was the Washington Nationals, when they moved from Montreal to Washington, they held a naming contest for the team in 2004, and the Grays were actually one of the finalists for names for the new team.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: So, and that was obviously a nod to the old Greys team that played in Washington.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: And um, I guess uh well I'll hold my hold my great Satchel Page quote about Josh Gibson, but we'll cover Satchel Page next because Satchel Page is one of my favorite baseball players, definitely for sure.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_02: I love Satchel Page, and that brings us to kind of the same uh era was the Pittsburgh Crawfords, and they were um only seven seasons, 1931 to 1938, and they had two league titles.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_02: The team was formed by um Bill Harris and Teenie Harris, and they are players that had uh no they had known other players for managing high local high schools.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, a gentleman named Gus Greenley bought the team in 1931 and formed the Negro National League for them to play in.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Gus Greenley was quite the uh uh character himself.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_02: He owned the Crawford Gill Grill, which was a restaurant, and he ran the numbers game in the Hill District.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_02: So he was kind of uh an interesting guy there.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_02: He raided, he actually raided the Homestead Grays.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_02: He had a lot of money, so he would raid the Grays and other teams and buy up the best players, and that's how he kind of ended up with like this collection of like crazy talent on the on the uh you know the Crawfords.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_02: He got some of the best players of the time, Satchel Page, Josh Gibson.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: You've all cool Papa Bell.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: I and uh the 1935 team is considered one of the best teams of all time.
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_02: They had four players that would go on to be elected in the baseball hall of fame.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's pretty crazy.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um the 27 Yankees only had five with Murderous Row.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: And although the 27 Pirates had five also, but I mean that's pretty impressive.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean to have four on one team.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_02: And they had Satchel Page, obviously, in his prime.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh what happened to the Crawfords was um I said Cool Bell, Kupop Bell, uh Judy Johnson, and Arskin Charlton were all on that 1935 team.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_02: 1935 team had a record of 26-6 for the first half of the season, and they finished with a 51-26-3 record.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: I guess there is tying in baseball.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: I I didn't know that.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_02: At least back then, at least in the 1935 season it was.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um Satchel Page actually left the team in uh I think that was 36 or 37.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: He went on to play for a team in North Dakota for$400 a month, and instead of the$250 that Greenlee was offering, so that kind of hurt them.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um in uh what else?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh all also they lost uh more of their stars because Satchel Page and uh Gibson and uh I think Bell, Papa Bell, they all left the team in 1937 to play in the Dominican Republic for dictator Raphael Trulo.
• 16:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess that guy, that dictator and the Dominican offered them more money.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean that was kind of the end of the Pittsburgh Crawfords.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: Can't compete with a you know a you know a Caribbean dictator, I guess.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and after they lost all their stars, obviously the team struggled for attendance, and they they moved out of town to Toledo and then Indianapolis before finally folding in 1940.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh great satchel page quote that I kind of teased before about Josh Gibson.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: We're saying like how great he was.
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_02: If you look for his weakness, you look for his weakness, and while you're looking for it, he's liable to hit 45 home runs.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: So I love I love Satchel Page.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like my favorite is like um, what is it?
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's all mind over matter.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't mind, it don't matter.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: I you know if you ever like it, like pain or hurting, just I always say that one to myself, you know, it's all mind over matter.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_02: If you don't mind, it don't matter.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_02: But uh I love the satchel page just has like if you ever look up like satchel page quotes, there's like I don't know, like 40 or 50 of just cloud.
• 17:38
  SPEAKER_02: The guy was a classic.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: He actually was the oldest rookie, I think, to to play in Major League Baseball, I think still, which they don't really know his age.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's another fun one.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_02: Try and look up Satchel Page's uh age on the internet.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_02: You can't there's no consensus on when he was born because he didn't have like a birth certificate or anything, apparently.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_02: So he he he's another great, just like a great character.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's kind of weird they they swapped teams between the Crawfords and Grays, like Elise Gibson did.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_02: And uh obviously, you know you know, Paige chasing, you know, you gotta make money.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_02: So what are you gonna do?
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_02: But uh great teams, and I uh you know, I never got to see them play, but I've heard just tremendous stories, and the things I've read just sounded like a lot of fun.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that that sounded like a really um interesting era of baseball.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's cool that Pittsburgh had two teams in that um really great history.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's when you stop and think about it though, it's like unfortunate because those leagues and those teams should have never had to exist in the first place.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_02: It's really an injustice.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: These guys should have all been playing in you know professional baseball.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_02: So, I mean, who knows?
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_02: Who knows?
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, maybe you know it you know, the home run, the all-time home run list is, you know, Gibson Ruth, you know.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: Bonds Gibson Ruth, you know, or something like that.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you yeah, if again, we'll never have the answer to those kinds of questions.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, they righted that mistake eventually, but mana took them.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: Almost half a century.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, all those guys I mentioned, I do believe, are in the baseball hall of fame in Cooperstown, so so that's a good thing for baseball.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um moving on to um another something I'm sure Tim will definitely remember.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: This is my favorite, yeah.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 19:33
  SPEAKER_02: The uh the Pittsburgh Spirit.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: They are an indoor soccer team.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_02: They played seven seasons.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_02: They are from 1978 to 1986.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they are initially owned by a guy named a beer distributor named Frank Fuhrer Fur or Fuhrer, I'm not sure.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_02: He owned the team for one season.
• 19:52
  SPEAKER_02: And after the 1979 season, the team actually went on hiatus.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, this gentleman, this Frank Ferry, he's gonna come up later in discussion about another team, which would be fun.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: But the Spirit came back in 1981 under new owner Ed Debartalo Sr.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: So banknote 1981.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: So obviously we're in the early 80s before you know somebody somebody shows up and changes things in 1984.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_02: So Ed Debartolo Sr., who made his money building like malls, like I don't know, well, there's another thing that isn't here anymore, Century Three Mall.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_02: And uh Ed the Ed Debartolo Sr.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: was from um Youngstown, Ohio.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_02: His uh his son Ed Debartalo Jr., who I do believe he passed away a couple years ago.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: He owned the San Francisco 49ers and is I think it it's his son, Jed York is his son, is it?
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: Or no, nephew, nephew.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_02: Jed York is his nephew, because his sister owns the team now, the 49ers.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it and at this point in 1981, that's when the 49ers are starting to go into their dynasty.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and so Ed DeBardo Sr., who is obviously his father, is trying to get into this.
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_02: Well, they're all from Youngstown, Ohio.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_02: So that's more I I I think that's still like for some reason it seems I don't know, maybe it's just because it's in between, but a lot of people seem to gravitate to Pittsburgh as much as Cleveland, you would think.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I guess they're just kind of in between the two cities.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: So one of those things going on.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um the game, this was indoors.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_02: This is like arena football.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_02: This is played in the Civic Arena on a obviously much like a hockey rink, which is much smaller than a soccer field.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, it only had six players, no offsides, four 15-minute periods in an overtime.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it played in a league called the Major Indoor Soccer League.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, their best player, and uh this guy, boy, this guy was a heck of a character here.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's a guy named Stan Turlicky, and he was no his nickname was Stan the Fran, like Stan the franchise.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: So before Ronnie Franchise, we had Stan the Fran.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then down.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_02: And uh Stan Turlecki was a um born in Poland.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_02: And um the reason you wonder he was like a really good soccer player on like regular of like full-size outdoor soccer.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_02: He was actually very good and he made the I think he played on the Polish national team in the before he came to the spirit.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_02: So why in heaven's name would Stan Turlecki have to come all the way to like Pittsburgh to play soccer?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: Why wouldn't he just play in like whatever, you know?
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: Well, at the time, the government in Poland, which I do believe was communist or under the influence of Russia, uh Staya Mr.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: Turley was not a uh big fan of their government.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: So he would like I guess they would have him on.
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like he was I think he was popular at the time.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: He would like get on like TV and like be like, I guess providing the color commentary, and he would like make like sarcastic comments about the government while commentating a soccer game.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: So probably not good.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's not gonna be great for your soccer for your soccer career.
• 23:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, he also like had the he tried to organize a union, the soccer player.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_02: There was some incident that happened in an airport.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't when I tried to research this, I had trouble at first because like the Wikipedia page on Stan Turliki is like literally three sentence long, but like the Wikipedia page in Polish is like really detailed.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_02: So I did Google translate it, but it was still Google Translate.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I and I'm not I um I don't offend any like Polish speaking people.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sorry, I I don't know, I don't speak Polish, but uh uh I did the best I could, although I did find some other cool articles about Stan Turlekki, he was quite interesting.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_02: So, due to all this, he got himself kind of like banned in playing for the Polish national team or any team in Poland at that point and probably Europe.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_02: So he came over to America and he had to play for the spirit, and he played from 1981 to 1983 and then 1984 to 1986.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: He was a really great goal scorer, and he actually left for two years.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_02: He played for a team called the Golden Bay Earthquakes and, of course, the New York Cosmos, and the Cosmos are a very famous team, they had Pele and such.
• 24:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um Turlick he scored um he had a he was a great goal scorer, he had two different stints, he scored 74 goals between 1981 and 82 and 65 goals in 1982 and 1983.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_02: He actually, I mean, according to the uh this is actually the interviews with the Cosmos, some of the Cosmos players, he got homesick in New York, and he actually returned to Pittsburgh because the Polish community in Pittsburgh had welcomed him and I guess made him and his two sons feel so welcome.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_02: So so I guess good on good on us and the uh you know, we must have made him some great, like, you know, I don't know, Holushki and Holupki and Pierogis, and you know, we we we we fed them well.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_02: So uh he really liked living in Pittsburgh.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_02: He he actually, it's funny, he rejoined the spirit under the dark of night.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: This is actually from an article by Mark Madden about the uh Pittsburgh Spirit, and uh the team's bus was on its way to Cleveland and he jumped on the bus at like a McDonald's in the middle of the night.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like, who does this?
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like, just like hey, I'm back.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_02: It's like, why are we stopping at McDonald's?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_02: To pick up our best player.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_02: Is it to get a big back now?
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: Stan's getting back, he's back on the team.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_02: What a what a what a crazy, what a crazy thing.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, uh the best is uh there was an interview, like there's all kinds of stuff on YouTube about this too.
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's fun.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_02: Like uh the spirit coach John Kowalski commented on how Turlecki would not play defense in his first stint.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: So he fit right in kind of with the penguins of the time.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_02: Like you were just not gonna play defense.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_02: He just he wanted to score goals.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_02: He actually his quote was he wouldn't even think about defense.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: So and then when he came back, he um he did he apparently did think about defense a little bit more, at least thought about it.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if he played anymore, but um he he did finally after that he went back to his uh native Poland in the 1990s and he did play, he ended up playing professionally because after obviously after 1989, the whole the whole you know government in Poland collapsed and you know they went to I don't know whatever form of government they have now all there, but there are more but he was kind of I guess by 90s he maybe he was past his prime.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, um uh Stanter like he uh passed away in 2017, but he's remembered very fondly in Poland.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: They they he's a very like you know, I guess maybe just not because of his soccer prowess, because of like how he, you know, some you know, very he must have taken some popular political opinions at the time.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_02: But um I we have some great highlights of him scoring goals and giving interviews and stuff, and then we'll have that on our webpage if you want to check that out.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the 1983-84 season of the Spirit was their most successful.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_02: They averaged around 8,000 fans a game.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, just for comparison, the Penguins at the same time only averaged seven six thousand fans a game.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_02: Now, that's before some guy named Mario Lemieux showed up, but they were they were doing okay there.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the history in the history of the team, they went to the playoffs twice, but they never advanced past the quarterfinals.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: They lost to Baltimore in a three-game playoff series in 81-82.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_02: They lost to Cleveland in 1983-84 in a playoff series.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, having lost, oh man, this is rough.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I can't imagine how much is he lost$8.9 million at Debartalo senior in the 80s.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_02: That has to be a lot of money.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, in five years, and he was unable to renegotiate a lease with the Civic Arena.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_02: I guess it was just too expensive.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: DeBartolo closed the team after the 86 season.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: So uh unfortunately the um the Pittsburgh Spirit were no more.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_02: But um did you ever go to I I never went to any of their games.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean I've heard people talk about them, but um So so yeah, I I remember them very fondly because before uh before I ever once as a kid went to a Steeler game or pirate game or penguin game, my parents used to take me to Pittsburgh Spirit Games.
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: They took my brother and I to a bunch of them actually.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_00: It was probably a cheap ticket.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: And that was my first experience going to a sporting event and I loved it.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um they played with this orange ball, it was fun to watch, it was high action.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: And they would do fun things at the game.
• 28:48
  SPEAKER_00: Like there was always once a game they would kick um, it wasn't the players, they did it, like during a timeout or whatever, they'd have these people drop kick these orange balls into the stands, and you could try to catch one and and get your own soccer ball.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: And then they would do like the giveaways, like you know, like the pirates used to do.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, we had this little orange spirit ball that we used to play in our family room.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: My brother and my dad and I would play like little like family room soccer with this Pittsburgh spirit ball.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I have all kinds of fond memories.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that playoff series you talked about against Cleveland, that was probably my first experience of like a sports disappointment because they were a good team that year.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: And and yeah, and they bowed out in the first round.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think one of those games went into overtime that Cleveland won.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that was kind of like my first disappointment in sports.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think Terlicky was on that team either.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: They have their best player.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: He was definitely their best player by far.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: He was definitely my favorite player.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he was he was he was my first like sports idol.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because I mean, at the time, I mean I I was definitely a Steelware fan, but that was when everybody was like retiring from the 70s, you know, and you had like the Mark Malone era, you know, and I wasn't gonna put like a Walter Abercrombie poster in my room.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and the Pirates, and you know, like you said, Mary wasn't here.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so really, yes, Dan Turlucki was like my first sports idol.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: And they had uh another guy named Paul Childe.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: So Turlucki was number 13, Paul Child was number 12.
• 30:11
  SPEAKER_00: I just rem I always remembered that.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Like number 12 and number 13.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_00: They were the they were the two stars, but Turlucki was definitely the best.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, I I was bummed when he passed away because it just brought back a flood of memories of how much I enjoyed going to those games.
• 30:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I said it on this show before for the longest time, probably till I was like in high school, to be if I'm really being honest.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_00: I thought that's what soccer was.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: I just I didn't I had never watched real soccer because I wasn't interested in it.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: I had never watched like the World Cup.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: I I certainly have watched a lot of it since, and I like I actually enjoy that sport now.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: But at the time, I thought soccer was five on five and it's enclosed space.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: And then whenever like I saw whenever my first real soccer game was probably like our high school that we Steve and I went to was probably the first time I went to a real life soccer game.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, wow, this is really different from guys kicking the ball.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you what did you say?
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: Turlick he had like 73 goals or something to use.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's that's like a career's worth of goal for like probably Pele or Maradona or something.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: So um, but yeah, I managed to be like those are two of the greatest players, you know.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: Right Messi or you know, or Ronaldo, you know.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know how many like I mean, I guess if we look up how many goals Ronaldo's ever scored, but um yeah.
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, 73 would be a lot for one season of soccer.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it was definitely like it was like you said, like arena football.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: It was a gimmick version of the sport, but it worked and it was fun to watch.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: And man, I was I really liked that team, and I've liked to go into those games.
• 31:43
  SPEAKER_00: Like I said, my first experience uh going to sporting events, so I'll always remember that fondly.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: Let me see.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: Most goals in this English Premier League.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: Uh not 73 in a season.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Is it even like a quarter of that?
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh some guy named Michael Owen had eight eighteen, eighteen in nineteen ninety-seven and I Sala, who I know is really like Mohammed Salah who plays for Liverpool and he's really good.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, they have a little thing.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know what year this is.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: He had 14 goals and seven assists, which in Mo Salah is like like world class considered like world-class talent.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_02: Trelecki blew him out of the water.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_02: Stan Trelecki was way better.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't know how many Moals Mo Salah would score playing indoor soccer, but yeah.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, I mean, that was a lot of it sounds like it was a lot of fun.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I wish I would have I never really got to experience it, but um, and just reading about the stories about Stan Turlecki, it just sounds hilarious.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's really cool too that like Pittsburgh like welcomed him and was so welcoming, especially the Polish community.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: So good on us.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, going on to something that's probably I can't believe this.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: I mentioned this to my dad today.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_02: I was just mentioning it was like, oh yeah, them.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, somebody actually knows this team.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_02: I was like, this is crazy.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: So there is one person that actually knew this.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: So it's the 1975 Pittsburgh Triangles.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I we mentioned this before in another podcast.
• 33:17
  SPEAKER_02: They upset somebody in our what greatest sports Pittsburgh sports teams bracket.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_02: I forget who they upset.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was one of the I think it was one of the the Super Bowl losing teams of the Steelers.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_02: Joey Porter had nothing on these guys.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: Or it was I think it was probably Harrison was on that team.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: But but it it's like it's it's weird because the the a lot of these teams were like you know, defunct football leagues or soccer leagues or baseball leagues.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like tennis doesn't have team leagues typically, but I guess in the 70s.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, this is still around during the pandemic.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_02: I remember this was on like the World T Federation of Tennant is still there.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_02: And it's a weird format.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_02: They like have a singles part, like a singles competition, a doubles competition, and I think a mixed doubles, which would be obviously men and women, you know, so which would be pretty cool.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I would love to see like a great mixed doubles match.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like, what if we put like I don't know who the best male penance player is now, but I mean a couple years, like Serena Williams is kind of like she's still good, but she's not as good as she was a couple years ago.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you put her with like the best like Roger Federer, like could anybody beat them at tennis?
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and that's kind of like the same concept, I guessed here.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's like, hey, let's put like the really the best like player, tennis players on one team, and can any you know so the Pittsburgh Triangles were part of this uh um team.
• 34:49
  SPEAKER_02: They um Pittsburgh Frank Fur, or however you pronounce his name, he also owned this team.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: He owned the Spirit for a season.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_02: They played in world team tennis.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_02: The team was a co-ed team with uh six players, and uh 1975 they actually won a championship.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um the this kind of the face of the league was Billie Gene King.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: And at that 75 season, she played for the Philadelphia Freedoms.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so they were kind of like I think they're trying to cash in on this was right after Billie Gene King and um was it bought Bobby Riggs, right?
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: They played the battle.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: And that was like that was a big ratings, but I think they sold out the Astrodome, and that was a big that got good ratings.
• 35:35
  SPEAKER_02: So I think this tried to kind of piggyback off that.
• 35:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so that was kind of what was going on, and they had uh uh a lady named Yvonne Gulong, if I'm mispronouncing a name, I apologize.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_02: She's in Australia, so I don't know.
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_02: Do we have any listeners in Australia?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: If not, I mean sorry, good day, mate.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, sorry.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_02: Uh but they brought her and her doubles partner, Peggy Michelle, Michelle, I guess, and they signed um a 19-year-old phenom Vetus Gurlitis.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um Gerlitis.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_02: Gerlitis, is that his name?
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, I'm murdering these poor people's names.
• 36:14
  SPEAKER_02: I'm so I do apologize.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Miss Goulong, uh, she had won, she's won Wimbledon twice, the Australian Open four times.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_02: She's obviously that's her home open in the French Open.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_02: Gurlitis, he won an Australian Open in '77.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Peggy Michelle was uh Gulong's doubles partner, and she actually won three Grand Slam titles, but they were all in doubles with Gulong.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_02: So she was obviously like a very good doubles partner, or I don't know, maybe this Gulong lady was just like, you know, really good, and she was just kind of along for the ride.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: She was the Kristen Leitner of that.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: Kristen Leitner on the Dream Team.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_02: But um on July 26, 1975, a league record, and this is unbelievable.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_02: I cannot believe this.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_02: 10,236 people came, and I'm assuming they paid money to the Civic Arena to watch them play the Philadelphia team and Billie Gene King.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_02: So that's how popular at the time, Billy Jean.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's so it's more like Billie Gene King is drawing a lot of people.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_02: They beat the Golden Gators from Oakland, California in a three-game series.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: They needed to win the last two games in the Civic Arena, and the final championship game was in front of a crowd of 6,000 people.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Gulong was the female MVP, Gurlitis was the playoff MVP overall.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, the final season was a tumultuous one.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: Gulong, I guess, got tendonitis and wasn't playing a lot.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_02: And owner, uh, the owner Fuhrer fired the coach and hired a gentleman named Danny McGibney.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: And this guy was 25 years old and was just like the PR man.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_02: He was just like in charge of selling season tickets.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_02: He had never played competitive tennis match in his life.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: So he actually turned the team around and they they went on a nine-game winning streak and they made the playoffs, but they lost to Billy Gene King, who had gone to a New York team in the playoffs that following years.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_02: And the team folded in 1976, and um unfortunately Pittsburgh has not had a tennis team since.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um on a sad note, um McGibney uh uh got cancer and died a year later.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_02: He had actually he'd done a lot, I guess, in uh Brookline.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_02: Um I didn't realize that I've been to McGibney Field a million times, coached baseball there.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: I did not know that's who he was.
• 38:38
  SPEAKER_02: I learned something.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_02: So he actually was you know a fairly person of note in Pittsburgh sports history.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_02: So um if you ever in Brookline and uh head to McGibney Field for a baseball tournament, that's it.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know who it's named after now.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: It's just uh it's just weird that I can't believe 10,000 people paid money to see uh that tennis match in Pittsburgh.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_02: That wasn't like a US Open or you know, something weird.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like it's just odd to me, at least.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean the the whole strike while the iron's hot.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, the the you know, I I think that's um I I could be wrong about this, but the um you know, the the American Soccer League, I think that formed after that 94 World Cup, and soccer was really popular, and you know, just just kind of trying to strike while the iron's hot, and if Billy King King was that big, and like you said, the whole Bobby Riggs rivalry thing, you know, that really was really like what Bobby Riggs was like what 50 when he played.
• 39:40
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, but he but he did a great job.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: I mean Well, you know what?
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_02: He beat um what's her name?
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_02: Was it Diane Corr?
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_02: Or it was a fellow Australian, the reigning Australian at the time, what is the reigning women's champion.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: He'd actually beat her in the and then he was going around like be he was like the a heel.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: And he was like, I'm the number one female player in the world, or you know.
• 40:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, well he he really see I don't and I if you if you watch like the old interviews of him and stuff, I can't tell if he really believed all of that or if he was trying to do like the wrestling heel thing.
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's very wrestling heel thing.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: It's like women can't play with men, clearly, like any any man, I'll I'll take on the best women's player and I'll easily beat her because a woman can't play with a man that they're not even close, they're not even on the same level.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I either he was like super, super sexist, or I think poor probably more likely it was like some shtick to rile people up.
• 40:37
  SPEAKER_00: And it worked tremendously because, like you said, people really got fired up by that, and people that didn't care about tennis, you know, but but cared about women's rights or whatever, you know, women especially.
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: They're I mean they were all on the side of Billy Jean King because like you have to show this man that you know you have to win this for us.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I think he was probably doing that on purpose, if I had to guess.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't know him.
• 41:01
  SPEAKER_00: But it way again, it like you said, it launched popularity in tennis.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I yeah, I mean I would drive I would say out of all the professional sports, women's tennis rivals men's tennis by far.
• 41:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like I just never I could I who who won the well, I guess they didn't have any tournaments last year.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_02: I couldn't I mean I know Serena Williams in um Osaka Osaka, what's her Osaka or Osaka?
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_02: I can't remember her name.
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_02: But like I know like more I can name more female tennis players off the top of my head right now that are currently good than like who am I thinking of, like Roger Federer, like he's not that great, or Nadal or Devote Javokovich.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_02: There's another boy.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um boy, these these European names are just killing me today.
• 41:47
  SPEAKER_02: Andrea, I guess he still plays.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 41:49
  SPEAKER_02: Seriously, yeah, yeah.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: He might play, but it's definitely like in his backyard with his kids, you know.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: No, you're right.
• 41:56
  SPEAKER_00: That's a very good point.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_00: That I I'm I if I were listing female tennis players and male tennis players from the last pick, you know, 30, 40 years, I would definitely know more female players.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_00: And and so you're right, that that was you can see why that was a big deal.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: And um Steve, do you know why they were called the Triangles?
• 42:13
  SPEAKER_02: Is that because of the city and the Yeah, I didn't I didn't you know I didn't I didn't see that story, but um it probably or I that's the only thing I could think of is the Golden Triangle.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean you were taught you you had mentioned like the the San Francisco Golden Gators.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the Philadelphia Freedoms, you know.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like definitely.
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know, I didn't I've I think they did tell me what the New York team's name was that following year, but I didn't write it down.
• 42:41
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it's just I think it was just like we said, uh people were just coming to see Billy Gene King.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: Like nothing against the Pittsburgh Triangles, but although they did draw, like we said, they draw in 6,000 until I think once King left the league, that probably led to the collapse.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_02: And tennis just isn't like if it's not a major, it's like golf, you know?
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_02: If you just had like your own golf league, it's not gonna draw like the Masters or anything.
• 43:09
  SPEAKER_02: Like tennis is just kind of in the same kind of boat there.
• 43:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, think about think about like um when Tiger Woods was in his prime.
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_00: If they if they would have had, and I think they even did this once with him and Phil Mickelson, like if they would have had like a a Tiger Woods, um, Phil Mickelson or pick whoever at the time, right?
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like a like a one-on-one match at Oakmont, a lot of people would have showed up for that because it's like, well, we need to see Tiger Woods play whole season.
• 43:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you're not gonna, especially, yeah, it's like yeah.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_02: And like the Masters is such a tradition, you know, it's normally played in it's coming, you know, in April.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um except for that one except for last year it was played in November, which was just odd.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: But um, yeah, I don't know.
• 43:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean like tennis and golf kind of like are just a different kind of season than like baseball, football, you know, the Other professional sports.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_00: And it's not a team sport traditionally either.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that's another odd odd characteristic of this, but yeah.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um so next up on our list is a sport that never really gained much traction in Pittsburgh for whatever reason, but for one year, well, but a couple years, they last a couple years, and the Pittsburgh Pipers, Pioneers, Condors, and this team, it's all the same team.
• 44:24
  SPEAKER_02: They had three different names.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they were from 1967 to 1968, from 70 to 72.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_02: They had four ABA seasons in Pittsburgh, and they won one ABA championship.
• 44:38
  SPEAKER_02: Always Pittsburgh.
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_02: I would call them the most successful pro basketball team in Pittsburgh.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, in the first season of the ABA, the team won the championship, which still stands as Pittsburgh's only pro basketball championship.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_02: Their best player was a uh gentleman named Connie Hawkins, who averaged a league high 26.8 points per game.
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_02: He was a post player with a good mid-range jumper.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_02: He was also like six foot eight tall and like 200 pounds, so he was pretty big.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_02: Um Hawkins got expelled from college in Iowa on a false accusation that he was point shaving.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_02: So the Hawkins didn't, because of all those allegations, he didn't get drafted in the NBA.
• 45:22
  SPEAKER_02: So he joined a team called the Pittsburgh Rens of another of the ABL, which was another defunct defunct pro basketball team.
• 45:30
  SPEAKER_02: That team only played like a season or two, and they folded.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: And so in 1963, Hawkins played for the Glometrotters until joining the new ABA Pipers in 67.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: So that's this new ABA league, and the Pipers get him.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_02: While he was playing for the Pipers, he actually sued the NBA for keeping out of the league over those false point shaving charges.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um the Pipers won the championship over the over New Orleans in game seven.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I think there's another one we we mentioned in our um was it uh Pittsburgh sports season bracket.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 46:10
  SPEAKER_02: Well we we we actually this is one of our forgotten stories stories that yeah, like that was the story where they moved to Minnesota and then came back.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, um there's also some conflicting stories over whether Pittsburgh player Art Heyman punched a fan who was heckling them in New York New Orleans during that season.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_02: Heyman told the police that the fan had an epileptic seizure, and I guess the police let them all.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_02: They think, all right, well, that's your that's our story, and we're sticking to it.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_02: So hey, it was the 70s, 60s, so you can punch a person.
• 46:44
  SPEAKER_02: Uh game seven was played at the Civic Arena, and um it was it would make it the last time a pro sports team has won a championship game in Pittsburgh, I do believe.
• 46:56
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the Penn's game came that's true.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_02: Came close in 2017.
• 47:01
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think I'm really counting the tennis championship.
• 47:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think that was in Pittsburgh too, but I don't know.
• 47:07
  SPEAKER_02: I don't I'm not really counting that one.
• 47:10
  SPEAKER_02: We'll say this.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_02: This is more of a regular team sport.
• 47:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the pens hang close in that 2017 game against Nashville.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's a weird, like they win and there's no parade or celebration.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_02: And we're like, yay, we won.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: And everybody's just like, okay, we're all moving to Minnesota, which that story we did cover in depth in our in our strange but true.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that was the strain the Pittsburgh Forgotten sports stories.
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um the team averaged 3,200 fans per season, so that was like what, 1968?
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_02: And they said that was pretty good by ABA standards.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know what the Pirates and Sealers were averaging back then, but and that was in the Civic Arena.
• 47:49
  SPEAKER_02: How many Civic Arenas see it?
• 47:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like 12,000, 13,000?
• 47:53
  SPEAKER_00: Probably not more than that at the time.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: And that and you know, it'd be interesting to compare that against the Penguins' first season was that same season, so it'd be interesting to compare the two.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um the team was bought by the Minnesota lawyer Bill Erickson.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: He moved the team to Minnesota to replace a team in Minnesota that had moved to, I think, New Orleans, and it didn't work out in Minnesota with poor attendance for the team that had moved.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: So the next year, former owner Gabe Rubin brought the team back to Pittsburgh.
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_02: And the best quote is because I couldn't think of anywhere else to go.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's a ringing endorsement.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, maybe that's like when we had that rash of people moving back to Pittsburgh a couple years ago, maybe that was their thing.
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I couldn't think of anywhere else to go.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_00: We we sometimes make Simpsons references on this, so it reminds me of where um Superintendent Chalmers fired Skinner, but then hired him back, and somebody questioned that like, why did you hire him back?
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_00: And Chalmers was like, Well, he seems to know the children's names.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_00: Works for me.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_02: Uh unfortunately, uh the seasons back in Pittsburgh weren't as successful.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, probably because the team moved for a year and they never were like able to capitalize on their success.
• 49:12
  SPEAKER_02: Uh also a problem was Connie Hawkins won his lawsuit against the NBA, which was good for Connie Hawkins and bad for the uh ABA and the ABA in general and the Pittsburgh Pipers in particular.
• 49:26
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and he decided to play in the league uh the NBA instead of the ABA.
• 49:31
  SPEAKER_02: Hawkins ended up playing for the Phoenix Suns, and the Phoenix Suns actually won a coin flip over Seattle to get the right to draft him.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Pitts, the then they had a team name, so things really start to fall apart in uh the for the Pittsburgh basketball team after that.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_02: They had a naming contest, they tried to change their name to the Pioneers, but they are threatened to be sued by Point Park University because that was their name.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_02: So the team ownership was just like, oh, the heck with the fans, we're going with the condors, so that's why like it goes from Pittsburgh.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_02: Pipers, Condors, then Pioneers.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_02: Why wouldn't you just go back to the Pipers after all that?
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um the ownership changes again in the offseason.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_02: I guess uh Gabe Room didn't run out of money.
• 50:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the Haven Industries, which was a company that made sugar products.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_02: What that has to do with basketball, I'm not sure.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: But um, hey, I bet the snacks were good at the snack stand.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh on November, this is interesting.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_02: On November 6, 1970, against the K a game against the Carolina Cougars in Raleigh, North Carolina, Charlie Helicopter Hence broke two backboards.
• 50:40
  SPEAKER_02: Not he got the he send it in twice that game.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: After breaking the second backboard, the coaches called the game.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: I found one source that said they called the game for Pittsburgh.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_02: That was just kind of an article.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then I found another source that said they called the game for Carolina.
• 50:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I've never had this happen before where you don't really know who really won the game for real.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: So uh according to basketballreference.com, uh Carolina won one 122 to 107, and somebody else had said that too.
• 51:15
  SPEAKER_02: On now, that was on a Carolina website.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_02: So I guess you you know, pick your choose your own ending on that one.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: But needless to say, they couldn't finish the game because they fresh run out of backboards.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know, maybe they could have played like like you know, backyard basketball where like you have to take it past the three-point line to change possession, you know, just half-court it.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_02: But they said and the second backboard was like wood, like they didn't like put up a new plexiglion, they just had like they just put up like a wooden backboard.
• 51:44
  SPEAKER_02: I guess they didn't have another piece of you know, nobody could run the lows real quick and make a backboard real quick, but uh they just called the game.
• 51:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the things get even worse.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_02: Team offered Milwaukee Bucks the championship of the NBA 25,000 to play the condors in an exhibition game.
• 52:05
  SPEAKER_02: The condors hyped the game as being on bring on Al Cindor, who is Lou Al Cindor was the big center, big time basketball player for the Bucks.
• 52:15
  SPEAKER_02: But there were two problems with the uh Condors plan.
• 52:18
  SPEAKER_02: There were two big holes in their plan.
• 52:20
  SPEAKER_02: The first of which was Lou Al Cinder playing his name now to Kareem Al-Dul Jabbar.
• 52:26
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, that's gonna be a problem.
• 52:28
  SPEAKER_02: And the second problem was that uh Kareem Al-Dul Jabbar nor Lou Alcinder played in this expedition game.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_02: Neither person played in the which I would think if I'm gonna give somebody 25k, I'm gonna put in the rules that you know you have to play at least your starters half the game or something, you know.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: But that was not a well-spent$25,000.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: You had to sell a lot of sugar products to make that up, I guess.
• 52:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it ended up being obviously a complete waste of money for them.
• 53:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Tendence got really bad the last season.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_02: They had like less than a thousand fans showing up for games.
• 53:06
  SPEAKER_02: They tried a promotion where they gave away 11,000 tickets, but only 8,000 fans showed up.
• 53:12
  SPEAKER_02: So like literally 3,000 people wouldn't even show up to the game for free.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_02: So you couldn't even give away tickets for people to see this.
• 53:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the team folded in 1972 and the ABA merger merged with the NBA in 1976.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_02: I think moving to Minnesota killed that team because they never could really capitalize off the championship success.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like, maybe, and plus, like if they could have kept Connie Hawkins, they could have, you know, obviously Connie Hawkins leaving.
• 53:42
  SPEAKER_02: Like Connie Hawkins really liked Pittsburgh.
• 53:44
  SPEAKER_02: He even married uh his one, I don't know if he's how long that marriage was, but he was married to a girl from Pittsburgh.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_02: He really liked Connie Hawkins was born in I think New York or New Jersey, but he enjoyed living in Pittsburgh.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe if they could have you know kept Hawkins around and had more success, maybe they would have lasted and Pittsburgh would have an NBA team.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_02: But um so with you know without a with the superstar to hype and build a team around, maybe they make it to the NBA.
• 54:15
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean that was still you gotta remember the Penguins weren't really you know set up yet.
• 54:21
  SPEAKER_02: They weren't as entrenched as they become now.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_02: So definitely pre-Mario pens.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_00: But I I think that I think that yeah, I'm like all these other leagues and teams, like the league eventually folded.
• 54:36
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's the tragedy of the of the Pipers slash Condor slash whatever, is that there's ABA teams that are still around today.
• 54:46
  SPEAKER_02: The 76ers, I think, right?
• 54:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well that no, I think the Indiana Pacers, yeah.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_00: I think I think Denver Nuggets, the Brooklyn Nets, and I I want to say the Spurs.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's correct.
• 54:57
  SPEAKER_00: You're correct.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_00: You are correct, sir.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_00: And and so those two those teams got folded into the NBA, and you know, like you said, Steve, like, and we talked about it in that other episode, they they had all that momentum from winning the championship, and if they just could have made it work one more season, like going to Minnesota and then coming back, it's like okay, you you lost whatever opportunity you had there, it was gone.
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like it just you lost it.
• 55:21
  SPEAKER_00: That you we just said about strike while the iron's hot, and they they lost it with that move to Minnesota.
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_00: So who knows?
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, who knows?
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_00: You you could have had a uh an NBA team here, um, or or maybe not, but it would have been interesting to see what happened.
• 55:36
  SPEAKER_02: I think if they would have stayed here with Connie Hawkins, if they could have somehow incurred, you know, I don't know if they would have been able to offer him enough money to stay, and he really he did want to play in the NBA.
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe that that that would have like a championship and a star player gives you something to build around for a couple seasons, you know.
• 55:54
  SPEAKER_02: You don't have to win the NBA, you know, the ABA championship every year, but you're gonna be competitive with him and you're gonna make the playoffs, you know.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and people come would come and watch that.
• 56:05
  SPEAKER_02: So but so moving on and uh shifting to another sport that uh was struggling to uh gain a football foot football, a foothold with the Pittsburgh sports scene, that would be the Pittsburgh Hornets, and they were a minor league hockey team.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_02: They're from 1936 to 1956, they took a couple high years hiatus, and then they went from 1961 to 1967.
• 56:31
  SPEAKER_02: They actually won three Calder Cups, three regular season titles, four division championships, and they lasted 26 seasons in total.
• 56:41
  SPEAKER_02: This is a very successful pro sports franchise.
• 56:45
  SPEAKER_02: I think out of besides like the Grays, this is probably like the most successful, and it's kind of a shame they got defunct, and we'll go into why.
• 56:55
  SPEAKER_02: And this is like we'll I'll get into it at the end.
• 56:58
  SPEAKER_02: So they started in Detroit as the Olympics, but then they moved to Pittsburgh in 1936.
• 57:03
  SPEAKER_02: They played in uh a place called the Duquesne Gardens, which was built in 1899 1890, which was actually just an old trolley barn.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: They just kept the trolleys there.
• 57:13
  SPEAKER_02: Like, hey, we don't want to keep the trolleys here anymore.
• 57:16
  SPEAKER_02: Let's make it a hockey ring.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know how, like, is there like a bus garage somewhere that Pat Transit wants to turn into like a you know a racing venue?
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_02: I is that how this these things work?
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: People were more economical back then, I guess.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, what a what an odd uh thing, but uh hey, it worked for them for a long time.
• 57:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it was converted into a multi-purpose sports arena.
• 57:41
  SPEAKER_02: It hosted basketball and hockey and concerts.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_02: Artists like Cab Callaway were there.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they actually ended up being the minor league team for the Red Wings and the Toronto Maple Leafs.
• 57:53
  SPEAKER_02: They eventually joined the American Hockey League, which is still the minor hockey league for the NHL.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_02: It still exists today.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_02: The Wilkesbury Pens play in that hockey league.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_02: After some mediocre years, they adopted more of this Maple Leafs tight checking and defensive style.
• 58:10
  SPEAKER_02: That's when they were a minor league franchise for the um Maple Leafs.
• 58:15
  SPEAKER_02: And uh 1949, a star goalie Baz Bastine actually lost an eye from a shot in the game.
• 58:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I imagine 1949 that's probably when the goalies didn't even wear masks, which is just insanity.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I but uh hey, what's losing an eye over a Calder Cup, I guess.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_02: Uh he actually became the coach and GM of the Hornets for a while, and then he was actually the GM of the Penguins from 1976 until his death in 1983, which is really a shame because he never really got to see like you wish he would have lived to like you know 1990, because he really he would have got to lift a Calder Cup and a Stanley Cup if he could have like it's really a shame he died in 1983.
• 58:59
  SPEAKER_00: It was a car accident too.
• 59:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it was it was very sudden and tragic.
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: And he would have been the guy that drafted Mario Lemie.
• 59:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 59:08
  SPEAKER_00: Eddie Johnson was the guy that replaced him.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it would have been it would have been great.
• 59:12
  SPEAKER_02: Like he could have been like, I don't know how many people have lifted a Calder Cup and a Stanley Cup.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that would have been awesome.
• 59:20
  SPEAKER_02: But unfortunately, it didn't work out for Baz Bestine.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um they won their first Calder Cup on April 20th, 1952, by defeating uh Providence on a goal in double overtime by Ray Hannigan.
• 59:35
  SPEAKER_02: Uh actually the Calder Cup wasn't in Providence that night, so the team got the cup on their way back to Pittsburgh.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_02: I guess the train stops somewhere and it's like, oh, here's the Calder Cup.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_02: Did that happen at McDonald's parking lot all the time?
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_02: Stan Truckey was like, oh, here's the cart clerk.
• 59:49
  SPEAKER_02: Let me go back to my time, you know, in the 80s.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_02: And here's a big Mac too.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_02: And they're all like, what's what's McDonald's?
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, I don't know.
• 59:58
  SPEAKER_02: You'll you'll your kids will love it, you know.
• 1:00:03
  SPEAKER_02: But any anyway, um the Hornets got back to the Calder Cup finals, but they lost to the Cleveland Barons.
• 1:00:12
  SPEAKER_02: Boo Cleveland in seven games.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_02: And um in 1954 and 55, they defeated the Buffalo Bison to win their second Calder Cup team in team history.
• 1:00:23
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, Willie Marshall, who played center for the Hornets, won the MVP of the playoffs for 1954 with 16 points for the playoffs, nine goals, and seven assists.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, the team had to go on a five-year hiatus after the 55-56 season.
• 1:00:39
  SPEAKER_02: Their last game was played on March 31st, 1956, the 6'4 victory over the Cleveland Barons.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_02: And um, you might say, well, well, this is a really successful team.
• 1:00:49
  SPEAKER_02: You know, they're doing okay.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: Why are they having to go away?
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_02: Well, the problem was um uh Davey Lawrence, who was mayor at the time, decided to have Renaissance one.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_02: And um, gosh darn, if the Duquesne Gardens weren't in the way, um, it only seated, I think, 5,000 people, so it wasn't that much big of a venue.
• 1:01:09
  SPEAKER_02: And so the home ice rank there were torn down as part of the Renaissance one, and they put an apartment building and a restaurant in its place.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so Mayor Lawrence, you know, this wasn't this is before the days of like publicly funded stadiums.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_02: So Mayor Lawrence was like, Yeah, we're not giving you any money to build a hockey rink anywhere, so you can just like go out of business.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_02: So, and that's what they did for five years.
• 1:01:36
  SPEAKER_02: Now, what did happen was uh they gave money to build the Civic Arena, and you might say, Well, that sounds like a hockey venue.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_02: You're wrong, sir.
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_02: The hockey the Civic uh the Civic Arena was built as an opera house for the Civic Light Opera, which uh, but they just conveniently could build, they could put like hockey, yeah, they did put a hockey rank and basketball floor and you know, soccer floor or whatever else they ended up, you know, look indoor lacrosse, you know, it ended up being like of this multi-purpose arena that lasted for years.
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_02: So the Hornets came back in 1961 as a minor league team for the Red Wings.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_02: The opening game they drew over 9,000 fans.
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_02: And I think at the time, like I think the arena only had 10 or 11,000 was their was the capacity, I do believe.
• 1:02:25
  SPEAKER_02: Unfortunately, the team was pretty bad for about two years.
• 1:02:28
  SPEAKER_02: But then in 1963 to 64, the team won 40 games uh with a goalie named Roger Crozier, who won the Rookie of the Year award in the AHL, it's uh and the Harry Hap Holmes Award for best coal goaltender in that league.
• 1:02:45
  SPEAKER_02: And um what happened in 1966 was a very eventful year.
• 1:02:50
  SPEAKER_02: The NHL granted Pittsburgh a uh franchise, and the penguins were created as part of NHL expansion.
• 1:02:57
  SPEAKER_02: So the the Pittsburgh Hornets, that you obviously couldn't have a minor league franchise competing with an NHL franchise in the same city, so the Hornets had to go away.
• 1:03:08
  SPEAKER_02: And the Penguins actually had to pay, they call it an indemnification bill, which I've never heard.
• 1:03:14
  SPEAKER_02: Like I thought that was insurance.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_02: Is that an insurance term?
• 1:03:16
  SPEAKER_02: I've heard it with insurance, but they had to pay the Red Wings money because for obvious reason.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_02: Because like I think the Red Wings owner was one of the two votes against the Penguins for obvious reasons.
• 1:03:28
  SPEAKER_02: He was like, you know, hey, I'm losing money on this deal.
• 1:03:30
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna, you know, vote for the Penguins to get a franchise.
• 1:03:34
  SPEAKER_02: So that I guess that was part of the machinations of getting the Penguins a town, was they had to pay the Red Wings owner who then closed the Pittsburgh Hornets.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_02: But not to be outdone, and much like the you know, kind of on their way out the last time, they had this great final season, and they win their third and final Caller Cup by sweeping the Rochester Americans, and that's how they go out.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_02: If you're gonna go out, man, the Hornets said this is the way we're going out with winning the championship in their league.
• 1:04:06
  SPEAKER_02: And actually, um a quote by um Jack Riley, who was the Penguins General Manager.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_02: The Hornets will be a tough act to follow.
• 1:04:15
  SPEAKER_02: We're replacing a championship winning team with a group of guys that might not be playing in the NHL if it weren't for expansion.
• 1:04:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it really was a storied franchise.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_02: They won three Calder Cups, and they just ended up being victims of circumstances beyond their control.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_02: This really is kind of a sad story because like it wasn't like you know the Pipers or like the well, I guess the Grays were kind of in the same boat, but like they just they're just outside forces, and that's life sometimes.
• 1:04:42
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you just can't, you know, something comes along, and unfortunately, your business was in the way of the wrecking ball twice.
• 1:04:49
  SPEAKER_02: One one literally, the other kind of figuratively.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um I I you know it's tough to tough to you know stomach, but um, you know, I why did why why they just didn't take you know, you just want a caller cup.
• 1:05:05
  SPEAKER_02: Why wouldn't you just take a lot of players from that team and put them on the penguins?
• 1:05:09
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe because they were Red Wings properties and you couldn't.
• 1:05:12
  SPEAKER_02: I I don't know.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_02: But I would think if I was the Penguins, I would try to, you know, if I'm gonna be paying all this money to the Red Wings owner, can I at least have your players?
• 1:05:23
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't know, I mean it's gotta be at least competitive, right?
• 1:05:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean Well, if nothing else, I mean I uh the Hornets paved the way for the Penguins because you know they it it it at least proved that hockey could could be sustainable in this market to some degree.
• 1:05:42
  SPEAKER_00: So um you know, I I like you said it's d it stinks.
• 1:05:46
  SPEAKER_00: They had to go out of business for reasons that weren't their fault.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, at le it it maybe maybe we still have hockey here today because of that.
• 1:05:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:05:56
  SPEAKER_02: But uh yeah, great, great uh great organization, nice to Remember them.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_02: So that leads us to my another minor league football.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_02: And this is probably out of all the teams we covered, outside of might be the Grays, I don't know a lot of people remember.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_02: I vaguely knew the Hornets, but the Maulers.
• 1:06:14
  SPEAKER_02: And like when I brought up this topic, my wife, who's not really into sports, first thing she said, oh, the Maulers.
• 1:06:20
  SPEAKER_02: So like I think this team, how many like, well, you probably already know this, huh?
• 1:06:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if we put it out there as like a poll somewhere, how many seasons do you think the Maulers played?
• 1:06:33
  SPEAKER_02: I bet people would say, like, what?
• 1:06:34
  SPEAKER_02: If I put the over under at like four or five, people go maybe over, or like three.
• 1:06:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, people would go over.
• 1:06:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:06:44
  SPEAKER_02: The Maulers played one season.
• 1:06:48
  SPEAKER_02: One season.
• 1:06:49
  SPEAKER_02: Unbelievable.
• 1:06:50
  SPEAKER_02: One season in 1984.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_02: That was it.
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_02: That's all they played.
• 1:06:54
  SPEAKER_02: So they played in a league called the United States Football League.
• 1:06:59
  SPEAKER_02: And this was an upstart spring football league.
• 1:07:02
  SPEAKER_02: And it it started play in 1983, actually the season before.
• 1:07:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then the next season, the USL, that that league decided to expand from 12 to 18 teams for the 1984 season.
• 1:07:14
  SPEAKER_02: One of the seasons that was proposed for expansion was Pittsburgh.
• 1:07:19
  SPEAKER_02: So once again, this is 1984.
• 1:07:21
  SPEAKER_02: You gotta remember the Penguins haven't completely like they're playing in the spring, like, you know, and they kind of end their season before the baseball really gets into its pennant race.
• 1:07:30
  SPEAKER_02: So they're kind of like trying to fill that void where there's there's not really, you know, and the penguins really haven't taken hold.
• 1:07:37
  SPEAKER_02: So once again, enter our man, Ed DeBartalo Sr.
• 1:07:42
  SPEAKER_02: He in the early 80s, he owned the Pittsburgh Spirit, the Maulers, and I don't know if he owned another team, but he at least owned two professional teams in Pittsburgh.
• 1:07:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um the Bartolo Sr., he got the bid because um he secured a lease to Three River Stadium before the there was another group that was bidding before they could.
• 1:08:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um there was kind of some conflict over D Bartolo Sr.
• 1:08:10
  SPEAKER_02: owning the team because obviously, like we'd mentioned, his son Debartolo Jr.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_02: owned the 49ers.
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_02: So like, and obviously USFL was kind of seen as competition to the NFL.
• 1:08:21
  SPEAKER_02: So I I you know they were kind of like, ah, do we let this guy in?
• 1:08:25
  SPEAKER_02: Do we not?
• 1:08:26
  SPEAKER_02: And they eventually thought this guy's legit, he's gonna add legitimacy, so they brought him in.
• 1:08:31
  SPEAKER_02: And the rumor is that whenever they would talk about USFL stuff, they would have like Debartalo, Eddie Gabartolo Jr., his son would have to leave the NFL meetings that was in the NFL.
• 1:08:45
  SPEAKER_02: So interesting, you know, you know, things going on there.
• 1:08:50
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the Maulers, as with the USFL in general, what they started doing was they started throwing around a lot of money.
• 1:08:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like this league signed like Herschel Walker, Steve Young.
• 1:09:00
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my goodness, who else?
• 1:09:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Jim Kelly, like a lot of a lot of Reggie Wade, I think.
• 1:09:06
  SPEAKER_00: Was it Reggie White?
• 1:09:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:09:08
  SPEAKER_02: And um, so the Maulers kind of like followed suit.
• 1:09:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they they signed uh Mike Rogier to a$3 million contract, which I imagine was a fair amount of money back then.
• 1:09:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um he and the and uh he had uh Rogier had 2,295 rushing yards in 19 TDs his senior year and Nebraska.
• 1:09:30
  SPEAKER_02: He also won the Heisman Trophy that year.
• 1:09:33
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Mike Rogier did end up playing in the NFL from 85 to 91.
• 1:09:37
  SPEAKER_02: He had his most successful pro season with the Houston Oilers, gaining 100 yards and 10 touchdowns in 1988.
• 1:09:45
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the quarterback who I'd never heard of before researching this was a guy named Glenn Carano.
• 1:09:51
  SPEAKER_02: He had been a backup with Dallas, and he had played behind Danny White.
• 1:09:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think he was like even like a third string guy.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_02: So in uh some crossover here, Greg Craig Walls played linebacker, and he actually ended up playing with the Pittsburgh Gladiators in 87-88.
• 1:10:08
  SPEAKER_02: So a little crossover with Maulers and uh Gladiators there.
• 1:10:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Jackie Flowers was uh their uh great receiver.
• 1:10:18
  SPEAKER_02: They had a pretty good receiver.
• 1:10:20
  SPEAKER_02: He had 46 catches, eight hundred and eighty-one yards, and eight touchdowns.
• 1:10:25
  SPEAKER_02: Um the Maulers got off to kind of a rough start.
• 1:10:28
  SPEAKER_02: They lost their first two games.
• 1:10:30
  SPEAKER_02: One, and both were like in heartbreaking.
• 1:10:32
  SPEAKER_02: One was in like Oklahoma, where I can't find any footage of the game.
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_02: There's no like most of these games, there's at least some tape.
• 1:10:39
  SPEAKER_02: There's none of that.
• 1:10:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um on a late touchdown, the other one, the second game, which there is the whole game on YouTube if you care to watch it, uh, by a late field goal by defending champion Michigan Panthers.
• 1:10:52
  SPEAKER_02: And so the Maulers come back to three Euras Stadium and they come back to a home sellout crowd of 53,000, which is wild.
• 1:11:02
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and that's not promos or giveaway, that's legitimate people in the door buying tickets.
• 1:11:09
  SPEAKER_02: So I think this is what, and I think we covered this.
• 1:11:13
  SPEAKER_02: Did we cover this in Forgotten Port Pittsburgh Sports stories?
• 1:11:16
  SPEAKER_02: The Cliff Stout return to Pittsburgh.
• 1:11:18
  SPEAKER_02: No, I don't think we've covered this one.
• 1:11:21
  SPEAKER_02: But so Cliff Stout, he played for the visiting Birmingham Stallions, and Cliff Stout had actually won two Super Bowl rings with the Steelers as a backup quarterback to Terry Bradshaw, but he had never played.
• 1:11:34
  SPEAKER_02: And the one time like he kind of had an opportunity to play, he couldn't because he had broke his hand in a bar in Seattle.
• 1:11:41
  SPEAKER_02: He supposedly was like punching like one of those chester strength games, and he broke his hand.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_02: So he had a great Kansas uh Kentucky Fried Chicken commercial, which I have a link to.
• 1:11:53
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure we'll post that up on our ARP page.
• 1:11:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so uh during the game, it was like played in like it was like an early game, so what, like February, March, so apparently there was still snow in the ground.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_02: Um the fans booed him because he people really hated him for some reason.
• 1:12:10
  SPEAKER_02: They there was a lot of like people did not like him in Pittsburgh.
• 1:12:14
  SPEAKER_02: They booed him and threw snowballs at him the whole game.
• 1:12:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like if you watched like the highlights, you can see like the snowballs flying out of the stands.
• 1:12:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I just think really like 50,000 people bought tickets that really came out and boo cliff stout.
• 1:12:30
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's it's they weren't really there to boot for the maulers.
• 1:12:33
  SPEAKER_02: They really wanted to boo.
• 1:12:34
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I'm paying my money, I'm paying the boo.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_02: What's that?
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_02: Uh that talk about another Simpsons uh reference where like they have the minor league, like Homer gives out, or no, Marge gives out her free pretzels for her pretzels business, and like Mr.
• 1:12:49
  SPEAKER_02: Burns whims like a car and everybody like boo and they start throwing the pretzels.
• 1:12:56
  SPEAKER_02: Like I kind of picture that scene only in through a stadium with snowballs, like boo, close out, we hate you.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I honestly I'm I'm I'm it's just a little tiny bit before our time because I I all I remember is you know he was he was the guy that started that season before.
• 1:13:16
  SPEAKER_00: So that was what 84 you said?
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:13:18
  SPEAKER_00: So 83, he was the guy that that was the year Bradshaw was hurt all year because he had that surgery in the offseason.
• 1:13:24
  SPEAKER_00: And Stout was the starter, and they and they went to the playoffs that year, they lost to the Raiders, I think, pretty badly.
• 1:13:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:13:31
  SPEAKER_00: But but I mean, I yeah, I just I guess I don't remember why he was so hated.
• 1:13:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if it was Barry Bonds or you know, um, you know, Le'Veon Bell or like I I could definitely see somebody you know getting snowballs thrown at them, but I I just don't why was Cliff Stout so hated?
• 1:13:48
  SPEAKER_00: I don't I don't have a good answer to that one.
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Cliff Stout did get the last laugh as his team won 30 to 18, but he really didn't have a great game.
• 1:13:58
  SPEAKER_02: Uh he had 26 touchdowns and seven interceptions for the year, although he did have a good season.
• 1:14:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and the obviously the Maulers lost.
• 1:14:07
  SPEAKER_02: The Maulers finally won their first game the next week against Washington.
• 1:14:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they lost some close games, but overall they really weren't that great.
• 1:14:15
  SPEAKER_02: And Mike Rogier really wasn't that great that first season.
• 1:14:19
  SPEAKER_02: He only scored three touchdowns and rushed for 779 yards, which is weird.
• 1:14:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh Glenn Carano wasn't very good either.
• 1:14:29
  SPEAKER_02: He threw 13 touchdowns and 19 interceptions.
• 1:14:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, attendance steadily declined the whole season after the opening game sellout.
• 1:14:37
  SPEAKER_02: The team barely was half full.
• 1:14:40
  SPEAKER_02: Average attendance was 22,000, but once again, I think that was maybe skewed by that first sellout.
• 1:14:48
  SPEAKER_02: So during a game against Memphis, uh Ed DeBartelosino told coach Joe Pendry to replace Gene the Carano with backup quarterback Tom Rosance.
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_02: I guess Joe Pendry was like, yeah, no mall building owner is gonna tell me what to do.
• 1:15:07
  SPEAKER_02: So it is even after like Carano got hurt and couldn't throw, is like, nope, not even bring the backup quarterback to handoff, gonna leave him in there.
• 1:15:16
  SPEAKER_02: So the Bartolo told Pendry to meet him in his office in Youngstown, Ohio later that week after the game.
• 1:15:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I guess Pendry figured that he was gonna get fired.
• 1:15:26
  SPEAKER_02: He he saw the handwriting on the wall, or he just got a sense of it.
• 1:15:30
  SPEAKER_02: So so he just says, like, that you can't, he he's I like not going.
• 1:15:35
  SPEAKER_02: So they fired him anyway, and offensive line coach Ellis Rainsburg took over for the rest of the season.
• 1:15:42
  SPEAKER_02: The Maulers had a pretty forgettable season.
• 1:15:44
  SPEAKER_02: They finished with 3-15, which is 18 games.
• 1:15:48
  SPEAKER_02: They ended up playing 18 regular season games, plus I think three or four preseason games.
• 1:15:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um now what what is now here's kind of the sad start and sad part, and we're definitely gonna have some people.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_02: There's one person in general here that I'm gonna mention that I'm sure a lot of people have strong feelings about.
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_02: And so if you love or hate this guy, you're you definitely if you hate him, this is gonna not help your feelings on him.
• 1:16:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um you have to, though.
• 1:16:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, he's he's integral to what happened with the U.S.
• 1:16:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well put your politics just aside for a minute because it's a fact.
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_02: I well, it's not just him, there was another person involved too.
• 1:16:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um in the offseason, um, remember they they brought in those the one of the teams was the New Jersey Generals who um had signed Herschel Walker and was owned by um a real estate magnet in New York who actually wrote like in the 80s, it was just kind of permanent coming to prominence.
• 1:16:43
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if he wrote his book yet, but um his name might have been uh Donald Trump.
• 1:16:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I don't I'm not sure if the art of the deal had come out yet or he married Ivanka or all that craziness had happened yet.
• 1:16:56
  SPEAKER_02: He was just like a tough talking New York real estate developer at the time.
• 1:17:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but there's another gentleman named Eddie Einhorn, and he was the owner of the Chicago Brit Blitz.
• 1:17:08
  SPEAKER_02: And uh they proposed moving the league to a fall schedule, and I guess they thought they would force a merger with the NFL and they would increase the values of their team, and then they would be able to sell the teams to another person.
• 1:17:22
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it was like a really risky scheme that obviously, you know, there's about five things were dependent on that.
• 1:17:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh DeBartolo, who was like, you know, who had lost money, you know, on his own and had knew kind I think he knew the Pittsburgh at least sports market well enough that like because like if you watch interviews with Paul Martha, he was like, Well, we think there's room for a second team because of the waiting list in Pittsburgh, because there's always been a waiting list to get season tickets for the Steelers.
• 1:17:54
  SPEAKER_02: So I think they were trying to get those people like, well, you can't go see the Steelers, come see this team.
• 1:18:01
  SPEAKER_02: And that was kind of like their pitch, I think.
• 1:18:04
  SPEAKER_02: And when they were off, I think in opposite playing opposite the Steelers, that that probably gave them a half a chance to pull that off.
• 1:18:13
  SPEAKER_02: But once they were gonna compete directly with the Steelers, they knew that that was just you're not gonna be able to the Steelers is just too popular, and you weren't gonna be able to compete with them.
• 1:18:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I I think DeBartolo knew he and he wasn't gonna lose a bunch more money just you know in futility.
• 1:18:32
  SPEAKER_02: So, and also the problem was there would have been three teams at the same time playing in Three River Stadium, so you would have had the Pirates, which would have played till the end of September, the Steelers playing in September, and the Maulers playing in September, plus throw in the odd Pit Penn State game back then.
• 1:18:51
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I don't know how you would have been playing games on Thursday, uh I don't which was kind of unheard of at that time.
• 1:18:58
  SPEAKER_02: Although, I mean their ESPN was around, but not it wasn't like it was now.
• 1:19:05
  unknown: Right.
• 1:19:06
  SPEAKER_02: So uh so Debartolo just said I'm not gonna lose any more money.
• 1:19:11
  SPEAKER_02: And so on October 25th, 1984, Vice President Paul Martha stood before a news conference, said, Welcome to Pittsburgh's answer to Pearl Harbor, and he announced the end of the franchise.
• 1:19:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um, we got some cool Maulers commercials and promos.
• 1:19:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they're pretty 80s tastic, just like the Pittsburgh Spirit one, which um it's one very short season.
• 1:19:35
  SPEAKER_02: It's fondly remembered, you know, the team stunk for goodness gracious.
• 1:19:39
  SPEAKER_02: They they're horrible.
• 1:19:41
  SPEAKER_02: They only had three wins and they fired their coach halfway through the year.
• 1:19:44
  SPEAKER_02: So and Rozgier did nothing.
• 1:19:47
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, an 18-game season to not even get a thousand yards in an 18-game season, that's pretty bad.
• 1:19:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um, if you don't like Donald Trump, I guess you can blame him for the demise of the Pittsburgh Maulers.
• 1:20:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, sure.
• 1:20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well well, I mean, I think so again, Donald Trump was very like go big or go home, which people either love about him or hate about him.
• 1:20:13
  SPEAKER_00: And I think he just saw, you know, okay, if if I want to own a football team, I want to own an NFL football team.
• 1:20:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it it was it had only been what 15 years or something since the AFL had merged with the NFL.
• 1:20:27
  SPEAKER_02: That that was their business plan.
• 1:20:29
  SPEAKER_02: Like they had a whole, there's like if you read the history of USFL, I didn't really get into it that much, but there was like a whole plan which had smaller expansion and then eventually force a merger.
• 1:20:41
  SPEAKER_02: It was by some businessman in New Orleans, but like I mean there are underserved markets, and you look at I think what's the uh I forget what were some of the other teams in that league.
• 1:20:53
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if like I'm trying to think of the markets that were in that league and if any of them actually have uh NFL francs.
• 1:21:01
  SPEAKER_02: I think Jacksonville was one of them, and they have, you know.
• 1:21:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like that would have been the best bet.
• 1:21:07
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, Pittsburgh wasn't gonna support two NFL franchises.
• 1:21:10
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think Pittsburgh's big enough.
• 1:21:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's not New York or LA where you're gonna have, you know, that also ran.
• 1:21:17
  SPEAKER_00: So so probably even if that plan would have worked, probably the Mullers are done anyway.
• 1:21:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and I I just and they had spent they'd spent a lot of money.
• 1:21:28
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of people lost a lot of money on this league because you know they just were there paying so much money to these players.
• 1:21:35
  SPEAKER_02: Three million dollars for Mike Rogier to not even have a thousand yards rushing.
• 1:21:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's ridiculous.
• 1:21:40
  SPEAKER_02: Like the you you need somebody that's gonna be like your Tony Dorset.
• 1:21:45
  SPEAKER_02: This is the guy I'm gonna sell you know my team on.
• 1:21:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 1:21:49
  SPEAKER_00: People have to pay to come out to see somebody because they're not they're not invested in the team yet.
• 1:21:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:21:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, and that's that's I mean, and if they would have stayed a spring league, I mean that's the question that's always asked.
• 1:22:01
  SPEAKER_00: If they would have stayed as a spring league instead of trying to move to the fall and force the NFL's hand, you know, would they have would they have lasted longer?
• 1:22:10
  SPEAKER_00: Would they have eventually would they have eventually gotten successful enough that the NFL would have had no choice but to merge with them?
• 1:22:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um who knows?
• 1:22:17
  SPEAKER_00: Who knows the answers to those questions, right?
• 1:22:19
  SPEAKER_02: But I I think the arena league was the better was the better model, the better business model.
• 1:22:25
  SPEAKER_02: Smaller stadiums, the players, you don't have to pay as much.
• 1:22:29
  SPEAKER_02: And you can charge like because like if you're gonna run a minor league, you have to charge minor league prices for everything.
• 1:22:36
  SPEAKER_02: You can't you can't run a minor league program and you know and charge you know the same price as the Steelers do.
• 1:22:45
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're not gonna get, you know, the fans that can afford that.
• 1:22:49
  SPEAKER_02: You gotta you gotta you gotta be competitive, and I don't think that was.
• 1:22:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um some honorable mentions.
• 1:22:56
  SPEAKER_02: Um the Shamrocks were another hockey team.
• 1:22:59
  SPEAKER_02: They lost 36,000 in 1935 in the one season they existed, which that sounds like a lot of money in 1935.
• 1:23:07
  SPEAKER_02: In the middle of the depression, yeah, probably.
• 1:23:10
  SPEAKER_02: Uh another amateur hockey team, the Pittsburgh Yellow Jackets.
• 1:23:13
  SPEAKER_02: They played a couple seasons in the NHL.
• 1:23:15
  SPEAKER_02: They folded after the 1937 season.
• 1:23:18
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, there was a Pittsburgh Power Arena football.
• 1:23:20
  SPEAKER_02: They were around for three years.
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_02: Only anything I remember about them was Bill Stahl, you know, Derek Turner played for them.
• 1:23:26
  SPEAKER_02: They folded after 2014.
• 1:23:29
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, probably one of the sadder uh teams in the honor mentioned was the Pittsburgh Explosion.
• 1:23:34
  SPEAKER_02: I never went to a game, but I remember them.
• 1:23:36
  SPEAKER_02: Julius Page, they kind of tried to capitalize when Pit Basketball got good, and they were an ABA CBA team like that that they're like be pre-NBA D League or G League or whatever they call that now.
• 1:23:50
  SPEAKER_02: And um Julius Page preferred them, but coach Tom Washington, he died during a timeout in the first game.
• 1:23:58
  SPEAKER_02: Like he literally died on the floor of the so um also Antonio Graves, John DeGroe, Carl Krauser started on the 2008 Pit Kevin Pitznoggle.
• 1:24:08
  SPEAKER_02: I remember him from West Virginia.
• 1:24:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I mean he was really good.
• 1:24:14
  SPEAKER_02: And he was actually made a CBA All-Star game on February 6th.
• 1:24:18
  SPEAKER_02: He he um he posted 23 and a half points a game.
• 1:24:22
  SPEAKER_02: So but that's kind of our uh honorable mentions.
• 1:24:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um I will say this, like I think most of these teams, if they were gonna have success, was that that early 80s window.
• 1:24:33
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know that now there's much of the only maybe maybe someday the Riverhounds will make the jump to MLS, but I don't know if the Riverhounds are gonna survive if we have to go another season without fans.
• 1:24:46
  SPEAKER_02: Because they're kind of like in that minor league territory, whereas their tickets are cheap, the price to get in the to buy concessions is cheap.
• 1:24:55
  SPEAKER_02: You can take a family there, and you don't it's not like the pirates where you're like gonna break the bank taking a family there.
• 1:25:01
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know if they'll ever make the jump to MLS, which is still like five levels below like you know the English Premier League or anything like that.
• 1:25:13
  SPEAKER_02: But but yeah, I mean that you know going forward, that would be the only team that I see like having a chance to even you know have a chance to jump to like professional status, and they don't and their season runs long too.
• 1:25:27
  SPEAKER_02: They run from March to November, so they offer overlap with the Penguins, Pirates, and Steelers.
• 1:25:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't know how that would work out for them.
• 1:25:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I think you're right.
• 1:25:38
  SPEAKER_00: The business model for teams like that to succeed has to be at like at finding a niche and finding like family-friendly entertainment.
• 1:25:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like I've been to a couple of Washington Wild Things baseball games, like those are just fun to go to.
• 1:25:52
  SPEAKER_00: You can take a family, it's cheap, you know, and and it's just kind of a fun night out.
• 1:26:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's what a lot of that's that's you're not gonna have to get like a prof like a competitive, like somebody's really invested in like, oh my gosh, did you see fill in the blank team lost last night?
• 1:26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man, I'm so bummed.
• 1:26:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm depressed at work today.
• 1:26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Like that level of fandom is gonna be hard to come by.
• 1:26:18
  SPEAKER_02: I I will say this, the Riverhounds do get highlights occasionally during the season on the 11 o'clock news, which is that's a good sign.
• 1:26:26
  SPEAKER_02: So so may maybe there's hope for someday they'll they'll be the next the fourth pro sports franchise.
• 1:26:32
  SPEAKER_02: There remember years ago they were talking about bringing the Pistons to town.
• 1:26:36
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 1:26:36
  SPEAKER_02: Like I but I I don't know if in see once again I think the NBA would too directly compete with the the the Penguins, and that's whereas I think maybe the soccer overlaps with I don't know.
• 1:26:49
  SPEAKER_00: I well you you'd have to have a you'd have to have I mean there's really the four major leagues uh North American sports leagues, you'd almost have to have a fifth league, and MLS is probably the closest thing to that.
• 1:27:00
  SPEAKER_00: But you really don't have that.
• 1:27:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so even some of the other teams, you know, we we've had like indoor lacrosse teams over the years, you know, but that's lacrosse has never taken off as like a national sport.
• 1:27:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean again, it's it's always gonna be niche kind of stuff.
• 1:27:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's either gonna be one of the four major sports in a minor-ish league, like the the Washington Wild Things or the Pittsburgh Mowers or whatever, or it's gonna be, you know, again, a sport that's not a major, doesn't have a major North American league presence.
• 1:27:30
  SPEAKER_02: In the analog, uh for example, like Cincinnati had FC Cincinnati, and when they were in the same league as the Riverhounds, they were drawing, now they played at Nippert Stadium, which was the University of Cincinnati.
• 1:27:44
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's 60,000.
• 1:27:45
  SPEAKER_02: They were averaging 30,000 a game.
• 1:27:48
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, 30,000 fans a game.
• 1:27:50
  SPEAKER_02: That's crazy.
• 1:27:52
  SPEAKER_02: Like, and they jumped to the MLS.
• 1:27:54
  SPEAKER_02: But you could say if you're averaging 30,000 fans a game, you're you're ready to do that, you know, and they haven't had much success since they jumped to the MLS for whatever, I guess, you know, the level in talent, but that would be the only thing.
• 1:28:09
  SPEAKER_02: But and I don't see like the River Hounds would have to get to that, and I don't see the I don't see the wild things, you know.
• 1:28:16
  SPEAKER_02: They're just not they're so far out of town, you know.
• 1:28:20
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe they won't draw as well.
• 1:28:22
  SPEAKER_02: But and I don't see like the Pirates allowing another like people barely go to the Pirates as it is.
• 1:28:29
  SPEAKER_02: The Pirates aren't gonna allow another professional baseball franchise.
• 1:28:33
  SPEAKER_02: They wouldn't even let the Blue Jays play here, you know, that one year with the pandemic.
• 1:28:37
  SPEAKER_02: So but uh well thanks for tuning in.
• 1:28:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um I hope that brought back some great memories.
• 1:28:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um feel free to uh visit us on our website.
• 1:28:47
  SPEAKER_02: We're on Twitter and Facebook also.
• 1:28:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um check out all the great links, and um, this should the one should have a lot of fun stuff uh as far as links and stuff live.
• 1:28:56
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks for tuning in.
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