Latest / The Vocal Hack Podcast / #11 Special Guest: Nirish Shakya
Transcript
- Assumpta: Hi everyone, I'm Asumta. Joana Lisboa: And I'm Joana. Assumpta: Welcome back to the Vocal Hack Podcast where we explore everything related to voice, communication, and human connection. Every week we bring you conversations that help you better understand how we communicate, how we connect with others, and how our voice influences the way we are perceived. Joana Lisboa: Today we have a very special guest joining us. His name is Nirish Shakiya. works at the intersection of design, innovation, branding and human-centered thinking. Through his work he helps individuals and organizations create meaningful experiences and communicate ideas in a way that truly connects with people. Assumpta: We believe there is a fascinating connection between what Nirish does and what we explore here at the Vocal Hack. Because communication is not only about the words we use, but also about the experience we create for others. Nirish, welcome to the Vocal Hack Podcast. It's a pleasure to have you with us. Joana Lisboa: Welcome. Nirish Shakya: Thank you. Joana and Assumpta glad to be here and yeah, thanks for having me. Joana Lisboa: It's our pleasure. Assumpta: To s yes. To start, we'd love our listeners to get to know you a little bit. And you have worked across a lot of different things like design, innovation, branding, and also education. And I just would love you to describe your work and what inspires you a little bit so they get a little bit of a feel for you. Nirish Shakya: my official role or title is that of a user experience consultant and educator and coach. what that means is basically I help organizations design better products and services and experiences. and the way I do it is by applying a human-centered lens, which is where we go out and talk to people, we go out and understand what their needs are. And we then design our products and services centered around those needs. I also teach the same thing. I'm also a lecturer at a couple of different educational institutes around the world. so currently I'm also the course director at the Berg School of Communication in Stockholm, where I teach user experience and product design. and for the last couple of years I have also been coaching designers, tech people, and anyone who wants to basically connect their external work with who they are inside. and that's something that it took me ages to I guess realize in a way, I was raised in a very kind of traditional Asian household where your entire upbringing and your sense of self-worth came from external achievements, It's like, yes, like the the grades, the the medals, the the accolades, the status in your Joana Lisboa: Thank Assumpta: Yes. Nirish Shakya: society. I remember for the majority of my childhood and adulthood, I was pretty much blindly chasing these external achievements. And what I realized was that, every time I tick these boxes of societal kind of expectations, yeah, it kind of like looked great outside, but it felt hollow inside. I was like, this, yeah, this is very, it it makes me happy for a while, but then it kind of takes me back to this sense of hollowness. And so it doesn't really give me a sense of meaning. And it's only when I started to do a lot of kind of self-work around who am I? what's unique about me? what are my strengths? what are my weaknesses in a way that I shouldn't work too hard on like trying to kind of make them better? Like a lot of times we think, we need to be great at everything, We need to kind of like, remove or reduce all our weaknesses. So that we can be the best version. But sometimes we have to just let our weaknesses be and just focus on our strengths, and that realization kind of made me realize, what? We focus so much of our time and energy on our clients, our work, but we totally ignore the most important human being that is doing the work, which is the human within us. And that's why like a lot of my coaching focuses on helping people connect with that human. Within you by focusing on the three pillars basically. The three pillars are self-awareness, creative courage, and meaning. And that's basically what my company focuses on. I created a company called The Unthinking Space because I thought we do a lot of thinking, but we probably need to do a bit more feeling and getting in touch with ourselves. and when we kind of like decouple our sense of self-worth from These external metrics that society places on us, it becomes a lot easier for us to make mistakes, try new things, explore, fail more creatively because there's no one judging you. And even if there are, who cares? Right. And when you try Joana Lisboa: Thank Nirish Shakya: new things, what I really believe is that we increase our surface area to new experiences or new opportunities or new. Ways of solving problems, which in turn helps us find things that are meaningful to us rather than just doing the same thing that people have told you to do. yeah, know yourself first, use that knowledge, self knowledge and self worth to try new things and fail and try again, and live a life that feels more meaningful. Joana Lisboa: That makes so much sense. Yeah. Assumpta: Yeah. So logical. Nirish Shakya: Thank you. Joana Lisboa: When we discovered your work, we noticed a strong connection between what we explore in vocal coaching, which is creating meaningful human experiences. How do you see the relationship between design and communication? Nirish Shakya: that's a great question. And the way I like to see it is design is communication. know, when we're designing a product or any service or experience, we're not just designing one thing, So there is in in design there is this particular model which explains, how there's like different mental models at play. every time someone uses your product or service. Let's imagine there's a door, like you're at a an office building or something and there's a door and then door at that door has a handle, So when you see a door with a handle, what do you automatically instinctively want to do? Joana Lisboa: Cool, it's open. Yeah. Nirish Shakya: You want to pull the handle. But have you ever tried to open a door by pulling the handle? But then the door does not move. You can't open it. Have you ever had that experience? Yes. Assumpta: Yes. Joana Lisboa: Yes. Nirish Shakya: there are a lot of doors which has a handle. The handle is telling you to pull, but the door is meant to be pushed. And then when it doesn't move, you you look stupid, Like everyone's looking at you like, Joana Lisboa: Thank Nirish Shakya: what's what's happening? Joana Lisboa: Thank Nirish Shakya: Do things their fault? No, So whoever designed that door, right, they had an intention. The intention was when people come to the store, they will open the door by pushing. But the door does not work like that, So, and especially when you place a handle on the door, the door then communicates a different meaning to the user, which is Pull me, Don't push me, pull me, And that's the kind of like communication that the user gets in the head, So the designer has a certain intention in the head, which they use to design the object, the door. The design, the door, expresses that communication in a certain way, which is different to how the designer intended. So the expression is different to the intention. And the perception that I have when I see the handle is again different. To how the door was intended to be used. when these three things, the the intention, the expression, and the perception are misaligned, that's when these products and services become hard to use and frustrating to use. you push instead of pull, or or use a website that is so frustrating that you want to throw your computer out of the window, So I Joana Lisboa: Thank Nirish Shakya: think design is all about communication. It's about communicating what's inside the designer's head and clearly into the user's head. And I think that's what happens in communication as well, When you're giving a speech or when you're just having a hard communication with your partner or loved one. You have a certain intention, Like for example, when I speaking with my wife at a restaurant, sometimes like I'm I'm saying something like, Yeah, I'm I'm really listening, but I'm on my phone. Or I'm saying, I really, I really love you. But if I'm on my phone, my intention might be, yeah, like I want to say I love her, but the expression of what I'm doing is totally different to what I'm actually intending. And the way she perceives what I'm doing is now she's gonna get angry. I'm at my phone and I'm saying something else, So I think the same thing is happening. The the misalignment between my intention, my expression, and Her perception, think for me they're the same thing. Design is communication. Assumpta: That definitely makes me very angry if someone says, Yeah, yeah, I'm listening Nirish Shakya: Ha ha ha. Assumpta: and earlier phone. I'm like, and this is the moment rage comes in. So that's a great example. Nirish Shakya: Yeah, I think, like was that someone said like communication is what is it, fift fifty-five percent body language and thirty-five percent the tone of voice and like ten percent just words, when we're communicating. We just think that the words will do the job. But the words only does do like ten percent of the job. Assumpta: Yeah, a hundred percent agree. I think that is something that brings me back to what you said earlier, where you said it's a lot about self-discovery Joana Lisboa: you Assumpta: and like finding part of your own identity and what is important to you. Because that's something we always talk about when you we want you to find your voice and know how to express yourself, that it's so important Joana Lisboa: Thank Assumpta: to know your own identity and your own branding in a sense. Like who are you? People often think about branding as visuals, logos, online presence, but we often forget that also just the way we communicate with people and the way people perceive us is also a branding. Like some people will always see me as someone that is super friendly because I smile a lot. Or they will think I'm not friendly because I don't smile a lot. Or, you know, like all of this is part of like personal branding in a sense. But from your perspective, how important are your voice and presence when it comes to building trust, connection, credibility? And the same for design, like how does that translate into your designs, for example? Nirish Shakya: I think humans, we connect with other humans, not brands and logos and visuals and things like that. Yeah, I mean, they are useful when it comes to scaling the Joana Lisboa: up. Nirish Shakya: reach of your yourself, like 'cause you can't be everywhere, so you had your visuals and your brands have to be somewhere to kind of help you help people make aware of you. But especially when you're s just starting out. either either as an entrepreneur or as a consultant or a coach, whoever, just 'cause you have like a nice logo does not mean people are gonna recognize you, Unless you're like Nike or Adidas or Apple or, big big brands, So also fun trivia. Guess what my first job ever was? Joana Lisboa: Hahaha Assumpta: My God, did we get a tip already towards that or not yet? Nirish Shakya: I don't think so, no, no. It's a it was like a very random, Assumpta: Okay, Joana Lisboa: Yeah. Nirish Shakya: random thing. Joana Lisboa: Like, Assumpta: A waiter? Nirish Shakya: first shop. Joana Lisboa: I I don't know why, like a mailman. Nirish Shakya: no, that probably would have been more fun, actually. But my Joana Lisboa: Thank Nirish Shakya: you could like, ride your bike around or drive your, your truck around. But my first job was a really random thing. And someone actually asked me to be a a host for a radio show. It was completely out of Joana Lisboa: Okay. Nirish Shakya: the blue. I had no experience in Assumpta: That's random. Nirish Shakya: radio. I don't know why. and I remember like I I I I was a kid back then. I was like, I think I was 19 or something. I didn't care. I was like, yeah, whatever. like I I just need money. I started doing it. I didn't know what I was doing. I was just it was a it was a very nerdy show about computers. and then one day, like there was a I I met this person on the street. It was a friend of a friend, and he said he listens to that show on the radio, but he couldn't actually connect, it was me. When I when he was like speaking to me in the restaurant. yeah when I when I told him I'm the host of that show, he said, But you sound so mature and much older in that show. I didn't expect like Joana Lisboa: you Nirish Shakya: a kid, it was a kid, Assumpta: Like Nirish Shakya: And that kind of made me realize that what, your voice has a has the power to shape how people perceive you, Here this was like a a teenager hosting a radio show, and people thought I was like much older. I was like, wow, like Assumpta: Mm. Nirish Shakya: that. That's really powerful, and also coming back to your original question, right, in terms of like the the the power of voice over just visuals. now if you think of like the world's greatest and the most influential leaders, For example, when you think of Martin Luther Luther King, what what do you think of? His speech, I have a dream. And you probably hear that in his voice, People like Alan Watts, I'm sure like you've done some of his guided meditations. you can hear his voice when you think of him. I'm not sure if you know Bipassana meditation? Joana Lisboa: The what? Nirish Shakya: It's like a the ten day silent retreat. Assumpta: No the Joana Lisboa: yes. Assumpta: Yes. Nirish Shakya: Yeah. So I I did like my first Vipassana, ten-day silent retreat meditation when I was sixteen. and since then I've been I've done like a few of those and it's really hardcore. And so that meditation technique was basically popularized and spread around the world by a gentleman named S. N. Goenka. And he was like he he got trained in in Myanmar, which was Burma. And Any meditator who comes out of that retreat, the first thing they remember is that guy's voice. And now it's not of he he doesn't have a very pleasant voice, It's very annoying, jarring, nasally voice. But people remember it, And it's his brand now, He doesn't have any logos. he doesn't have any social media presence, he doesn't I mean, his website, if you go to their website, it's like it looks really, really bad. Really boring. But that's not the brand. The brand is his voice itself and how he guides these meditation sessions. so I think something that people don't realize is that there is so much power in your work in in how you talk and how you communicate your ideas that a lot of times we just ignore all of that and then spend our all our time and energy and money and building amazing websites and logos and colors and blah blah blah. And that's not what people connect with. people connect with with you and your ultimate pure expression, which is the voice. Joana Lisboa: Yes. And talking about side by side storytelling, think it's really side by side with what you said. And it's usually at the heart of the leadership, branding and communication. what makes for you a story memorable and how much does the way we deliver the message? You said it before, it's very impactful using a voice or not. But what about story? What do you think about that? Nirish Shakya: I mean obviously, there are I I tend to use some particular storytelling techniques when I am trying to sell something. and one of those techniques that I that have used very successfully is it's it's very similar to a a hero's journey. But you actually you know how with with heroes journey you kind of start with like the the status quo and then something happens that changes the status quo and the hero has to go on a quest and then go save someone and then everything's happy ever after. But the the storytelling technique that I tend to use, especially in when I'm trying to either sell something Joana Lisboa: that. Nirish Shakya: or sell an idea, or get someone on board on like into my idea. is basically there's there's a also I think some there's a technique that I I first learned which was less effective, which was, starting with the problem. for example, if I, tell someone, I don't know. I let's say you doom scroll too much, Like you're you're on Instagram and social media too much. Now the first thing they're gonna s be let's say is, no I'm not. they they get they get defensive, Like what do you mean? Like I'm I'm fine, like I've got really good Screen habits. So what I realized was that, when you're telling stories, like you you don't wanna start with something that they can disagree with. Like you wanna start with something that both of you. can agree with. And something that I learned from, from I forgot the guy's name, but this was like five years, five years ago. And is to start with a fact or something happening in the world that you both can agree with. Right. so for example, if you want that person to use their devices less, So you could start with a fact that says, something like, I don't know, Something that the the both b we both care about. Like, I don't know, AI is, taking over, the jobs nowadays, It's getting harder and harder to find a job that is not affected by AI. Now it's like, yeah, we both agree on that thing, and then you tell them, so what might happen if you don't do something about it, So if if they're always kind of know wasting their time and energy on getting these like little spikes of dopamine from being on the devices all all day other people are learning ai at a much faster rate rather than wasting the time on their devices just scrolling crap right they're like yeah like if I don't do something about it like then there's there's this impact. We're not saying you're gonna have that impact, we're just saying that's gonna be the impact, And then what's the benefit of doing something about it? rather than, for example, spending time on devices and getting your dopamine spikes and then crashes, if you were to kind of like if people were to kind of use their time on something else, like learning a new thing, like AI or craft or something like that, That is a much better use of time. And the benefit of that is you're going to learn a new skill. You might be able to build your own AI-driven product or something, a painting or whatever. There's a show them some kind of benefit, And then you show them how your solution will actually help them, get that benefit. So, let's say if you're selling in like some kind of productivity technique, you're like, hey, I have designed a new technique that will help you be more aware of your device usage, your screen time. Right. And then every time you feel like scrolling on Instagram because you feel this sense of discomfort in the body and you want to escape that discomfort, you can use this thing, which and then you can like, for example, you can read a page of a book or you can read a lesson about AI or painting or whatever. you're kind of like replacing that ha old habit with the new habit. So essentially, like could be anything, What I've just done there is rather than saying your screen time is really bad and it's gonna basically cause you lots of trouble, which people get defensive about, you start with something that's already flowing in the world. It's like you're you're both jumping into a river that flows in the same direction. Hey, yes, AI is taking over a lot of jobs. Yes, we both agree on that. And then what's gonna happen if you don't do something about it is that, all these other things that happen. And then what's gonna happen if you do something about it? it's like, yeah, yeah, that's true. Yeah. make them agree. So just make them say yes and yes and yes, like not no. Joana Lisboa: Thank you. Nirish Shakya: And then off of that, it's like, hey, this is how I can help you get that thing that you want, So this is like an example of a storytelling technique that has that I've very frequently use. I think there's actually there's actually a book, I think. Start with yes or something like that. Assumpta: Mm-hmm. Yes. Joana Lisboa: It's organizational theater. You say yes and never buts. Assumpta: Mm-hmm. Nirish Shakya: That's right, yes. what? Yes and yes but they're actually a design technique as well. this is a game that I play, So who who wants to actually, what? The two of you can volunteer, okay? So Assumpta and Joana, Assumpta: Yes. Nirish Shakya: you guys are friends, And imagine that you are Organizing a party, For Joana Lisboa: Yes. Nirish Shakya: all your friends in the neighborhood, So one of you, so Joana, you start by saying to Assumpta, let's organize a party. All right. And then Assumpta Joana Lisboa: sweet Nirish Shakya: why will reply by saying yes and then add to that. Right. And Assumpta: Okay. Joana Lisboa: Okay. Nirish Shakya: then Joana replies to that by saying yes and then add to that. You can't ask questions, you can't say anything, just yes and. Do you want to try that? Joana Lisboa: Yes, Assumpta, I think we should throw a party. Assumpta: Yes, and we should have a lot of food. Joana Lisboa: Yes! And animal balloons, you know? I love them! Assumpta: Yes. And one of these jumping castles. Joana Lisboa: yes, and maybe we just have very interesting guests. Assumpta: Yes, and everyone should wear a different costume. Joana Lisboa: Yes. Nirish Shakya: Okay, awesome. All right. we've got Assumpta: Ha ha Nirish Shakya: some really fun party there, but now we're gonna do another one where rather than starting with yes and, we're gonna start with yes, but. So Joana Lisboa: Okay. Nirish Shakya: same thing. Assumpta: Okay. Nirish Shakya: Joana, you can start, you can be the same person starting, same sentence, and then Assumpta this time you reply with yes but, and then add something. Assumpta: Okay. Joana Lisboa: Assumpta, I think we should throw a party. Assumpta: Yes, but we should not forget the food. Joana Lisboa: Yes, but let's do it on Sunday. Assumpta: Yes, but if we do it on a Saturday, people that come out of town have don't have to leave too early. Joana Lisboa: Yes, but it's a beach day, so maybe people won't come. Assumpta: Yes. But what about the people who cannot swim? Nirish Shakya: All right, let me stop you both there. Joana Lisboa: Thank Nirish Shakya: we can clearly see which is the more fun party that people want to come to, The people with the Assumpta: Ha ha Nirish Shakya: costumes, the balloons, the the magic clock castle, and whatnot. Whereas the other second party, like the party never happened. but yeah, but this, So, and this is Assumpta: Yeah. Nirish Shakya: obviously like this you probably both know that this technique comes comes from improv. And we have borrowed this technique and they we use this in design. And the way Assumpta: Mm-hmm. Nirish Shakya: we use this in design is when you into when you go into a meeting, a workshop with, some s really serious looking business people and stakeholders in the room, And we want them to kind of come up with ideas and get lots of some cool ideas. And lot of times, people come into these workshops and meetings with like this very kind of narrow minded mind of like what the solution already is. They're like, I've already decided on the solution. I don't want to be thinking about anything else. we're basically trying to kind of warm them up and prime them to this different way of thinking, which is, yes, obviously yes and like we're not saying, the idea is bad. We're just building on the idea of others so that, we just keep expanding. And what what else is there? How else can we do this? Layers, that's right. Assumpta: Yeah. Nirish Shakya: Yeah. Yeah. So in in design, we call it divergent thinking. We're like expanding our thinking. What are the possibilities? Assumpta: Mm. Nirish Shakya: And then obviously, yes, but is also useful. It's not a bad way to think because if we just keep doing yes and we will never get anything done. If we just keep doing yes, but but but but but we will never have any creative ideas, So we use a combination of yes and first, the divergent first. And then we converge into something that we can actually do using the yes buts. Right. again, this is this is another technique that we very much, very, frequently use in our design processes as well. There's only one word that was different, which was and, but. And even that one word can have such a huge impact on how people communicate and how and what kind of ideas that they should generate and the decisions they make. Joana Lisboa: I think the most dangerous sentence is no but. in that sense, the story ends there. It's like the end. It's like Nirish Shakya: Absolutely. Joana Lisboa: a paragraph. It's this thing. No but. Nirish Shakya: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Joana Lisboa: And so the idea is completely destroyed and we feel meaningless, like our ideas Nirish Shakya: Absolutely. Joana Lisboa: are not worth it. So that's I Nirish Shakya: Yeah. Joana Lisboa: feel it's... And I had this improvisational improv course that I did. I was telling this before to Assumpta I always try to do the yes and to all different departments of my life. And it brings so much color to our lives that we really need Assumpta: I definitely think on a natural basis I'm more of a yes but thinker because in my head I already like go through all the possibilities. But I like the idea of like Yeah. Nirish Shakya: And then there's there's nothing wrong with that, We all have our national modes of thinking. But what we're trying to do here is we're trying to bring in intentional divergence and convergence into our thinking Assumpta: Exactly. Nirish Shakya: processes, Because so that we don't we don't just c only do convergent or only do divergent. And that's what organizations do. Like most organizations are very convergent in their way of thinking. They only have an idea, they put all their time and money in that idea, they build it, they launch it, and then no one uses it. And they're like, why is that? Because you only came up with one idea, in in in design, there is a a law called Sturgeon's Law. Sturgeon's Law was basically created by a guy called Theodore Sturgeon. I think he was like an American philosopher and theorist. and he basically said 90% of everything is crap. So, what does that mean? I mean that applies in business, So, for example, 90 to 95% of businesses fail in the first two to five years. If you use a smartphone, you probably don't even use 90% of apps on that phone at all. You probably don't even remember when you downloaded them, what you downloaded. It's probably just like collecting here. 90% of my ideas in this head are really, really terrible ideas. Now If I were to come up with just one idea, there's a 90% chance it'll be a crappy idea. So if I want to come up with a good idea, I have to come up with at least nine bad ideas. bad ideas are actually not bad. Bad ideas take you one step closer to that one good idea. So most companies, the mistake they make is they just come up with one idea. Maybe the boss comes up with one idea or one person comes up with one idea, they put all the time and money in it, and then they realize why it's not working. I think that's also a communication issue because we don't encourage the kind of psychologically safe communication spaces and Joana Lisboa: Thank Nirish Shakya: containers, which some tech calls it like brave spaces, you call yourself a a brave Assumpta: Mm-hmm. Nirish Shakya: space designer. So we, if when companies can't don't have the skills to create those. brave and safe spaces where people can come up with those bad ideas and share that without this fear of being made fun of. The fear of punishment, Assumpta: Mm-hmm. Nirish Shakya: fear of, you're not good enough. No. We are getting closer. With each bad idea, we're getting closer to that good idea. Right. again, this is I think this is a core communication skill that every company and every team needs. Joana Lisboa: It's like a group of friends when we are with our best friends and close friends. We are not afraid to say anything wrong. Nirish Shakya: Exactly. Joana Lisboa: We just say it. And Nirish Shakya: Yeah. Joana Lisboa: if we bring that to companies, think that would be... Well, it has to... Maybe some layer of being careful what... what we say at some point, like not to hurt other people. But if you're talking Nirish Shakya: Absolutely. Joana Lisboa: about ideas, I think we should be very free about them. And what I observe, not in the company, but what I Nirish Shakya: Hm. Joana Lisboa: observe with my friends that are, shut down to that possibility because other people going to Nirish Shakya: Yeah. Joana Lisboa: make fun and like you said. Nirish Shakya: Yeah. Yeah. Joana Lisboa: but it's very dangerous. Nirish Shakya: The the analogy that I train to kind of tend to use is for the next sixty minutes or ninety minutes in this meeting room or in this Zoom call, we're just creating a playground, And every playground has a bunch of rules, activity. Here's a bunch of rules we're gonna follow. Right. So obviously, like you said, Joana, no idea is bad. we you're not allowed to judge any idea. Any person is allowed to kind of express an idea. Maybe rule number two might be like you said, no one is allowed to disrespect, anything that anyone says. So respect is something that you can set as a ground What I what I find really important is just like in communication, You you gotta set those ground rules early on, maybe the first thing, and not assume that people know those rules, because people don't, where they're coming from and what they're thinking. we can't read minds. So as long as we can have the shared set of ground rules, just for that sixty to ninety minute playground, I find that people are more willing to kind of just try it out. Because After that meeting's finished, yeah, people can do whatever they want. They can go back to the desk, yell at people. But in that safe container, we follow the rules. We play according to the rules. Assumpta: No, I like that a lot. I I want to bring something in that you said earlier in your example because you brought up AI. And I'm wondering if you see a change in that also now in the way that AI is changing and used in creative processes and all of these things as well. And it's evolving really quickly. But of course, there are a lot of negative sides to it. But do you see maybe also a positive hard that could happen with these kind of problems, for example, like opening it up for more ideas, opening it up to having more play space of trying out things without it being such a big deal, having many ideas floating around, for example. Nirish Shakya: AI is the talk of the town, And it's it's moving so fast that no one has any idea where it's heading and what's gonna be the impact. but I think we'll yeah, we're already seeing a a proliferation of especially digital content everywhere, AI is writing, I don't know, emails, newsletters. Love letters, anything, So it's writing everything and creating videos and audios and everything, Avatars. and we can't even tell anymore, like what's real and what's not. Like, a YouTube video you might be watching, it might be generated by AI and looks just looks like you and me, Assumpta: Yeah. Nirish Shakya: and I think that's that's you you c you can't stop that. and what I feel AI will definitely, do is it'll increasingly Allow us to outsource conversations that are probably like less meaningful to us. So for example, we used to kind of have to call our bank to fix something with our account, That's and that's not a meaningful conversation, Like does do you enjoy that conversation? No, I would love for AI to kind of Joana Lisboa: No. Nirish Shakya: do that for me, just by me just, I pressing a button or just say to say to my clot code saying, hey, just get me get me a refund for that transaction or whatever, And then just does it for me. I think a lot of these less meaningful conversation, it'd be great if if AI can kind of take over that. And I feel like there are still a lot of these meaningful human communication that we probably cannot outsource to AI, Like for example, I probably, maybe I can, but if I tell my, ChatGPT to send the message to my grandmother that I really love her and I really kind of like appreciate the time and effort she spent, me, raising me. if I I mean I could probably say Claude could do it, but it does not feel the same inside of me. and also. Any kind of high-stake conversation, So for example, a boss can probably use AI to fire their employee, with with over a text message, which has happened a lot over the last, couple of But they probably cannot use AI to make their that employee or their team respect and like them more. that requires them to be vulnerable, to be open. to really kind of connect at that level of the nervous system, essentially, AI Joana Lisboa: Yeah. Nirish Shakya: it cannot replicate our nervous system and all the experiences, the memories and the traumas that it's it stores. Assumpta: Yeah. Nirish Shakya: And when we're in front of a person and our nervous system is connecting and communicating with that other person's nervous system, AI cannot replicate that. that that feeling that you get, that that warm feeling or that kind of discomfort when you have to kind of, have a difficult conversation, no, AI AI doesn't matter how much you prompt, don't doesn't matter how much you generate that script or record it, use AI, it's not gonna replicate that. and I think AI is gonna enable us to yeah, outsource all these time consuming, meaningless conversations out and then be more in touch with our our body. and communicate at that bodily physical level that sometimes we can lose touch with. and that's probably wishful thinking, but that's really my hope. Joana Lisboa: I also, I'm with you. I always think about AI as a tool and something that's gonna make our lives easier. But the connection part is, like you said, is something that you cannot replace. The connection part, the good connection and not so good. So when you're firing someone or telling your grandma that you love her, they're both connecting with people and we need confront more our humanity, like you said, and be more aware of our emotions and our body and everything else. yes, I... Nirish Shakya: Hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Joana Lisboa: I'm with you, the wishful thinking. Before we finish Nirish we always ask this last question, that is, if you could give one piece of advice to someone that wants to communicate with more impact and create stronger connection, like we said before, what would it be? Nirish Shakya: It's something that my public speaking mentor taught me like I think fifteen years ago and I've used it ever since and it's helped me a lot. It's something very simple, And something that a lot of people forget to do, which is to record yourself speaking and watch it back. The speaker has a certain intention that they wanna communicate to their listener. And then the expression is the words and the body language and then the tone of voice. And then you have the perception of those words, the tone of voice and the body language in the listener, when you record yourself, you can see that expression, how you're expressing your intention how it is being perceived, it's a very simple technique, but it can be very powerful in increasing your self-awareness, Making you aware. Of how you express yourself and how that is being perceived. the next time you have to give a talk or you have to kind of teach, or or maybe the next time you have to, say I love you to my grandmother or to your partner, Maybe like record yourself doing that first and see how you do it, Physically. what is your voice like? what's your body language like, what is your tone of voice like, what are the words you use, And Yeah, it can be a really powerful way to yeah, really increase the impact of the communication. Assumpta: Nirish, I think that's Joana Lisboa: I Assumpta: the perfect tip to give to our listeners because a lot of people always shy away from doing that as it is uncomfortable and most people are like, I don't like my voice, I don't like seeing myself, it's even hard to do it in front of a mirror, for example. sometimes you have to do the hard thing so the other things are easier to do. I think that's the perfect practicing tool for exactly that. It's harder to do that, but then it's gonna be easier to do everything after. And we love that tool as something to do with our clients as well because it is so effective. So I love that your public speaking mentor told you this as well. Joana Lisboa: Yes, it's a completely game changer, so great advice. Assumpta: Nirish, thank you so much for joining us today. It was a pleasure exploring your perspective and hearing your thoughts and also doing the exercise that you did with us. It was very fun. Before we let you go, where can our listeners find you and learn more about you? Or if they want to work with you, how should they approach that? Nirish Shakya: first of all, thank you so much for having me. this is probably one of the most fun podcast episodes that I've recorded and being part of. So thank you so much for the fun. I can tell that, you're you're both masters of your own voices and how you make people feel. thank you for making make me feel, safe and belonged, I can be found obviously on LinkedIn. people can DM me there and connect with me. I can also be found at unthinking.space. so Unthinking Space is my company that I created to help people go from autopilot, that numb autopilot to aliveness if anyone wants to kind of have a coffee chat or have a question, feel free to drop me a line and we can always jump into a call. Assumpta: Perfect. Joana Lisboa: Thank you so much everyone for listening the Vocal Hack Podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to follow the podcast. Leave us a review and share this conversation with someone who would enjoy exploring all marvelous things that we spoke on this episode. Assumpta: And we'll be back next week with another episode exploring the fascinating world of voice communication and human connection. Joana Lisboa: See you next week. Bye. Assumpta: Bye. Nirish Shakya: Bye!