Latest / Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald / Dr. Drew, Kravis Married? Narcissism, Gaslighting, and Britney

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Dr. Drew, Kravis Married? Narcissism, Gaslighting, and Britney · Juicy Scoop with Heather McDonald

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Reward the easy way.
• 0:01
  Speaker 2: Optionscard.ie.
• 0:29
  Speaker 3: Heather MacDonald has got the Juicy Scoop.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: When you're on the road, when you're on the go,
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: Juicy Scoop is the show to know.
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  Speaker 3: She talks Hollywood tales for real life.
• 0:43
  Speaker 4: Mrs.
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  Speaker 3: Sacred Serial Data and Serial Sister.
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  Speaker 2: You'll be addicted and addicted.
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: Fast to the number one tabloid real life podcast.
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: Listen in, listen up.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: Woo, woo. Heather MacDonald. Juicy Scoop. Hello, and welcome to
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: Juicy Scoop. Well, we've got a big show today. I've
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: got Dr. Drew, but more importantly, Kravis is married. Yes,
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: the couple whose tongues are entwined for now a lifetime, hopefully.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: It is official. They are in Vegas. They were there
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: for the Grammys. They stayed an extra night. They got
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  Speaker 1: a third night free, I guess, and went down to
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: the little chapel with the Elvis impersonator, got married. Courtney's
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: sharing like 10 photos. Seven of them are making out
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: from their event of getting married. It was, she just
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: had a little thing of roses, hair and a pony,
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: sunglasses for most of it. He wore sunglasses throughout the
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: whole thing. It looks like leather jackets. And, you know,
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  Speaker 1: I think it's really kind of interesting because how does
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  Speaker 1: it work? Like, I wonder, is the pressure off? Is
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: it almost like once you, now if she has a
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  Speaker 1: big wedding event, you know, they film for the Hulu
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  Speaker 1: show and all the kids are there and everybody's there.
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: I wonder if maybe she just knowing herself is like,
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: you know what, let's just get married because it'll make
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: planning the actual like wet, you know, wedding so much
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: more fun. I'm curious to hear from people that have
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: done that. Does it like make it less, less exciting
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  Speaker 1: or less pressure or more about the fact that you
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  Speaker 1: have already committed and it's not leading up to this
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  Speaker 1: big moment of like the olden days of, You know,
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: is the bride going to run away? Is the guy,
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: you know, someone going to object? Like, there's none of that. So,
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: you know, it's interesting because I remember that one of
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: the first times I met Courtney, she told me about
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  Speaker 1: how she was the one who found out that Kim
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  Speaker 1: got married to her first husband in Vegas when she
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: was like 18. That somebody alerted her to it and
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: she found it on the internet and was like, oh
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: my God, found her marriage license.
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: And.
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  Speaker 1: It was a big issue for their parents and everything
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  Speaker 1: that she did it that way. But this is a
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: totally different story. They both have kids with other people.
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: They're madly in love. And I think it's really great.
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  Speaker 1: So then there was a couple of articles like, oh,
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  Speaker 1: the marriage license isn't 100% or there's no prenup. All
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: of that, we don't know. And I'm sure a Vegas situation...
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: They can get a post up now or whatever, and
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: it really won't matter. The point is they let the
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: world know that they're committed to spending the rest of
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: their lives together. And now it's like really have a
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: big fancy wedding with the sisters being bridesmaids, the kids
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: all in it. I'm ready for it. I'm ready to
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: see that. Erika Jayne not having a great week, you guys.
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: So I'm going to explain what's going on with this
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: lawsuit as good as I can and So Erica Jane
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  Speaker 1: is named in a $ 50 million racketeering lawsuit. This guy, Edelson,
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: he is the attorney that was the local representation in
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: the state of Illinois. Their partner was Tom Girardi's firm
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: to represent plaintiffs in the horrible plane crash situation. They
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: got screwed. Their firm got screwed. Their clients got screwed
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: because they did win all this money. Tom Girardi's firm
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  Speaker 1: took all the money and never gave it to them.
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  Speaker 1: And so now we're at this place where their clients
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: have gotten the money because more lawsuits that were in
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  Speaker 1: the works, the Girardi firm won. And with that money
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  Speaker 1: that's come in since this whole story broke, their clients
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  Speaker 1: got paid. But now that Edelson firm is suing Tom
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  Speaker 1: Girardi along with his son-in-law, his daughter's husband, who was
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  Speaker 1: a partner, a couple other partners, Erica Jane. There's several
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  Speaker 1: people in this involved in the law firm. And what
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  Speaker 1: Edelson is claiming in this lawsuit is that he believes
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  Speaker 1: this is like a Ponzi scheme kind of operation. He
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  Speaker 1: used those words on Kate Casey's podcast that I just
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: listened to. She interviewed him directly. And the question is, okay,
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  Speaker 1: we see why he's naming all these people, but this
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  Speaker 1: is like a racketeering case, a fraud case. This is
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  Speaker 1: basically he's saying they ran this law firm like a
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  Speaker 1: Ponzi scheme for the last 10 years. And he believes
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  Speaker 1: all these other people, not just Tom Girardi, knew what
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: was going on and they got to this point because
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: they get to, they've discovered so much stuff. I assume
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: now that it's been out there for a year and
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: a half, two years, I assume many people have come
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  Speaker 1: forward and said, I've got more information now that I
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: feel safe, that I can speak because I think, you know,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: if you worked for them, if you worked for Erica,
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: they knew how litigious and how powerful and how like
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: revengeful they were. So I think they never wanted to
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: speak about them. But I think since all this has
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: come out, they probably have a lot of information. He
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: also said they subpoenaed a lot of footage from Bravo
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: that wasn't necessarily used in the show that we've seen,
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: but extra footage that they're going to use in which
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: they believe she knew what was going on and was
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: accepting money that she, I guess, might have been aware
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: of or not. But there's... evidence of her accepting money
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: is what I'm assuming from this, from not being a lawyer,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: but reading it, that was actually due, that were actually
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: clients' money that was stolen from them. So now her
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: defense could be, again, I was a dancer. I was
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: a performer. I met Mr. Girardi. I told him it's
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: expensive to be me. He knew that. He let me
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  Speaker 1: spend whatever I want. I didn't know. I knew what
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: he said. One of the things he said was there
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: was a moment. I don't remember if it was on
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: Watch What Happens Live or the reunion. I want to
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: say it was Watch What Happens Live where this actual
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: law situation, legal situation with Edelson came up. And it
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: was before the LA Times article and everything. And Erica said,
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: not relevant. It's already been settled. And they apologized. And
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: so that's a blatant lie. So it's like they're saying,
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: how many times has she lied? Lied on camera. you know,
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: maybe lied in the show. Is she going to lie
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: once she has to actually answer questions in a deposition? And,
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: but again, if you're going to take it that she
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: was just that wife that got to spend whatever she
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  Speaker 1: wanted and never asked questions where it came from, he
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  Speaker 1: may have also, Tom Girardi said, you know, if anyone
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: asks about that, you know, we already settled it and
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: they apologized. Okay. I don't think she was like, can
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: I see where they apologize? You know, Can I see
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: where they apologize, Tom? No. She's like, let me pat
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: the pussy and get out of my way to watch
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: what happens live. I don't know. But I'm thinking if
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: they bothered to name her, there's going to be some
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: very questionable things that they found, whether it's emails, texts,
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: I don't know. People coming forward, people who've worked for her,
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: people that were paid out of one fund versus another
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: from a hairdresser too. That's where it's going to get
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: really interesting. However, I don't know how much we're going
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: to actually see of this juicy stuff on The Real
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: Housewives of Beverly Hills because actually it's kind of been
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: dead as far as Erica Girardi News these last six
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: months that they've been filming. Of course, then the show
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: will start airing. I heard it was airing May. Not
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: sure if that's true. And then at the end, you know,
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: then they'll do the reunion. So a lot could happen.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: They may throw in other extra episodes at the end.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: If this gets really juicy, I don't know where it is,
• 9:03
  Speaker 1: but I know they had the quote unquote final party
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: in which Kathy Hilton did not attend. And that Kathy
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: Hilton is like stopped filming halfway through. And there's a
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: big controversy of what happened in Aspen, that there was
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: something that she, you know, the rumor is that Kathy
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: said a derogatory term in which was not caught on camera,
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: but that Erica and Lisa Renna have, witnessed it and
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: have talked a lot about it. And that's going to
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: be the new, you know, um, Aspen gate story. I
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: don't know. So there we go with that. So we'll
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: see what happened to how she reacts. And if she
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: ever does just go, Hey, you know, again, I did
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: not know this was going. I did not. I'll get
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: into my voice. I didn't know this was going on.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: I've been through a lot. Um, Tom's house is broken
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: into and, um, It was snowing and my son came
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: in the car, rolled four times, actually 14. So it
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: was really, it was, I've been through a lot now.
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know what's going on Sutton. Um,
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know what she's going to say.
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: You know, it'll be very interesting to see. Um, but
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: you know, one thing she could say is like, I'm
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: furious too. How do you think I feel? I was
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: told I could spend all this money. I, I'm grossed
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: out that you stole it. Now I'm, you know, she
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: does say that he left me with this mess. But
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: how is she going to really defend herself? And what
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: will the attorney say? So good luck. Speaking of other
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: legal news. So Britney Spears' attorney just was in court
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: fighting the fact that Lynn Spears, her mom, is asking
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: that the Britney Spears estate pay Lynn's attorney's fees, which
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: is up to $ 660, 000. And Britney's attorney is saying, hell no.
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: Everyone has bled this chick dry. You got to live
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: in a beautiful house for all these years in Louisiana.
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: She paid your utilities, down to your telephone bill, paid everything. No,
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: we're not paying your legal fees too. Lynn Spears is saying,
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: but Britney wanted me to To help on her behalf.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: And I hired these attorneys to help her get out
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: of this conservatorship. And therefore, I can't pay these people
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: the $ 660, 000. So, you know, it's not going to be
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: a fun Mother's Day is all I'm saying. I don't
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: see a big brunch at the Cheesecake Factory happening. Well,
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: they could just have it at their house because, you know,
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Chris Frangel is obsessed with the fact that her house
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: is very, very Cheesecake Factory decor inside.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: I watch Real Housewives of New Jersey. And you guys,
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: this is what I think. Listen, sometimes people's lives are boring.
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: Sometimes being a real housewife, which I am, sometimes my
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: life isn't that juicy. So in their defense, this is
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: their life. But for me sitting on my bed, it
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: is getting very hard to keep my eyes open. Last week,
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: we had to watch 23 minutes of an actual baseball game, okay?
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: Last night, we had, oh, let's just go through the list.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: We had, well, the main thing was Margaret's mother, Marge Senior,
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: you know, is going to turn 75. We're going to
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: have a beautiful party for her. And, you know, she
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: was a Hungarian immigrant. So we got a big history
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: lesson about Hungarian immigrants, which is inspiring, but it's not
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: my usual, you know, housewife fun. Uh, Dolores's mother is
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: still on FaceTime recovering from a surgery. Um, Melissa's daughter is, uh,
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: had a knee, a knee issue from cheerleading. We didn't
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: know if she wanted to cheer again, but she is
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: at least going to therapy or going to a workout class,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: which we got to see. Melissa constantly embarrasses her daughter.
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: She goes, oh, we had a pool party here yesterday with, um,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: I forgot the daughter's name, with my daughter's, with my
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: daughter and all of her, uh, What? No, Melissa's daughter. Anyway. Oh, yes. So, yeah,
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: we had a party here with Antonio and all her
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: friends in skimpy bikinis. So then Antonio was like, Mom!
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, Melissa, do you not get this? Now her
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: friends are going to be like, we just watched the
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: show last night. First of all, we were not wearing
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: skimpy bikinis, or that is so embarrassing, or why would
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: you say that? And, I mean, ugh. And so... And
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: then the new girl, Tiki Barber's wife, no one knows
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: her name, and Tiki Barber, they come with their cute
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: little daughter and they have like the shortest lunch ever.
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: Tiki's dying to get out of there. The little girl
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: got her suit on and then never went in the pool.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: I kind of felt really bad. Anyway, the little girl,
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: she's got a tutor for kindergarten. Now we're literally have
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: four minutes left of the show and we finally get
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: to the Hungarian party and all the guys make up
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: and Marge dances and And, and I mean, Marge senior
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: dancers and Marge gives a nice speech and that's it.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: The only juicy part of the entire episode was next
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: week's episode where they're in Nashville and Louie is there
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: and Teresa's there. And Teresa accuses Margaret at a big
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: table saying, I think you put out the rumors about Louie.
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: And Marge is like, You're diabolical. You're a disgusting human being.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: I didn't put out those rumors, you know, which she didn't.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: They were all out there. He's got an ex-wife and
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: two ex-fiances, two of which are named Vanessa. It's out there, okay?
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: And she is like, and she throws all the drinks
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: on Marge, who's wearing a white dress. So you're like,
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: oh my God, this is like some really good cinematic things. Like,
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, to say... It's like in movies where the
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: person's wearing a white dress and then there's a shootout,
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: like the end of Boogie Nights. The guy's wearing a
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: white suit and he goes to the donut shop. Sorry
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: to ruin it for you. There's a shootout in it.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: But anyway, it's like, oh, wearing white. Anyway, a lot
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: of cranberry vodka drinks go flying at Marge and Margaret,
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: and that's what we get to see next week. I
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: want to say something. I know people aren't a fan
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: of Louie. But Louis deserves a million-dollar paycheck at the
• 15:33
  Speaker 1: end of the season because otherwise they're literally– we would
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: be watching more doctor's appointments. Jackie is going through her
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: anorexia struggle, which I think it's an important thing. I
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: don't think we need to see a whole bunch of it.
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: As there's someone sitting home, it's not something I want
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: to see, but I do think it's important. She got
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: to have ice cream for the first time. That was
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: about a nine-minute scene about ice cream. And we only
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: have so much time in the world, but I just
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: want to put it out there to thank Teresa and Louie. And,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: you know, and people are annoyed that she is a housewife.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: What do you want them to do? You gave the
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: producers a pile of poo and they made a chocolate
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: cake out of it. Okay. Good luck. I also want
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: to tell you guys, I think it's time. It's the
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Lenten season.
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: It's Easter. Do your Christian service. Why don't you share
• 16:28
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• 16:33
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• 16:42
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• 16:48
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• 16:52
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• 16:56
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• 16:59
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• 17:02
  Speaker 1: be the hero. that introduced them to the world of
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Juicy Scoop. So thank you for being a Juicy Scooper
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: and sharing the show. And now, a very juicy episode
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: with the infamous Dr.
• 17:12
  Speaker 5: Drew.
• 17:20
  Speaker 4: But better hurry, because when all our half-price cookware sets
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: are gone, they're gone. Also, all baking trays and tins
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: are still half-price, and all clothes hangers are still one-third off.
• 17:31
  Speaker 4: But when our baking trays and tins and clothes hangers'
• 17:33
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• 17:37
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• 17:41
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• 17:42
  Speaker 2: A happy home.
• 17:44
  Speaker 6: I'm Darman, and this is What Happens Next. Each week
• 17:47
  Speaker 6: on the show, I sit down with extraordinary people who
• 17:50
  Speaker 6: have faced tremendous setbacks, and yet somehow have found a
• 17:55
  Speaker 6: way to turn them into their greatest strengths.
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: Life is one long lesson of chaos.
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: I'm heading to the Emmys, and I have police complaints
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: filed against me.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: When your free will was about to be taken from you,
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: what would you do if it was given back?
• 18:08
  Speaker 5: Where did that need come from, where you thought that
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: you had to succeed in order to feel loved?
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: He said, I have a work dad. I need a
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: home dad.
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: What happens next?
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: When I came in, he started crying.
• 18:19
  Speaker 5: Everybody in life encounters hardships. What defines them is not
• 18:23
  Speaker 5: those hard moments that they go through. It's about what
• 18:26
  Speaker 5: happens next.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: I decided to risk it all.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: I realized how valuable every day was. You're worth the work. Listen, Dara,
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to pull punches.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: You can use your voice even if it shakes.
• 18:36
  Speaker 6: The stories are different, but the impact is the same.
• 18:39
  Speaker 6: Only one question matters. What happens next?
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Juicy Scoop. I have one of
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: the original Juicy Scoopers, a real friend, Dr. Drew Pinsky.
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: Good to see you.
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: Husband.
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: Father.
• 19:02
  Speaker 2: Making me sound better than I am.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: Podcast host, radio host, doctor. Oh, yeah.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: You know what? Everything. Susan will kill me if I
• 19:09
  Speaker 2: don't put I'm the least promotional person in the world,
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: so let me get that out of the way, because
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: I will forget. Please watch. Go to drdrew.tv and watch
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: the streaming show that my lovely wife produces and participates in,
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: and don't forget Dr. Drew After Dark, which is very popular.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: At drdrew.com, you get it there.
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: There you go. You have a lot going on, as always. So,
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, there's a lot to discuss.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: And one of the things I put out to my
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: juicy scoopers to discuss with you is something I've noticed
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: because you've been doing these TikTok videos and stuff. And
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: I think so many people have been throwing the word
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: narcissism around. I think I've gained a greater understanding of
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: it in like the last year of people. talking about it.
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: It's a big topic.
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: It's a big topic.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: It's a big topic with celebrities. And I feel like
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: some people... Use it a little, it may be being
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: used too much.
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: It is, yeah.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: Along with gaslighting.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Gaslighting.
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: And so I kind of want to go through all
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: of that. All right. But my first thing with narcissism
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: is I didn't really understand what it was. I was
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: at Chelsea lately. You came on as a guest. You
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: had a book in which you could take a test.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: About your narcissism.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: So, and right away, you know, I think Chelsea was like, oh,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: Heather's going to be like off the charts or something.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: And when I took it, I didn't score high at all.
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: That doesn't surprise me.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: And one of the things that stuck out to me
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: that makes me kind of understand it the best, because
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: I think sometimes people think it's a vanity thing.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Vanity is a feature, a symptom, but it's not the thing.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: I'm like wanting to look cute.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, vanity can be with or without narcissism, right?
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: Right, yeah.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: You know, you have some vanity without narcissism, right?
• 20:49
  Speaker 6: Yeah.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, vanity's not bad.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: But it was just, I remember one of the questions
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: that then made me, when I looked at the people
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: that scored high, high on it chelsea yeah it was
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: yes and um even this other guy that i really
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: like you know enjoyed and stuff was the question do
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: you think you're the smartest one in the room oh
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: yeah And I thought that is so interesting because it's like, yeah,
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: I don't think I'm the smartest one in the room oftentimes.
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: Certainly I want to get other people's opinions and all that.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: But when I think about people that I do believe
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: fall into the narcissistic realm, that's a big one. I
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: know everything and I'm right.
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: And it's a forced choice questionnaire. So the other question
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: against that is something like people like my advice and
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: come to me often, something like that. So it's almost
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: the same thing, but one has a narcissistic flavor to it,
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: which is I'm the smartest person in the room. That's it.
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: Got it.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: And people that choose that and stand by it and
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: don't see that as kind of whatever, that's narcissism. That's
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: a feature of narcissism. But here's what I want. I'm
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: going to tell a story.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: So I started working in a psychiatric hospital in 1985.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: And when I was first there, I ended up working
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: there for three decades and took over their addiction services
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: and their medical services and things. over the years. So
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time really working a lot there.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: And at the beginning, you fill out these sheets, these
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: diagnostic sheets when people came in. And axis one is
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: the mood disturbances and the bipolar and that kind of stuff.
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: Axis two is the personality disorders. And when I first
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: got there, I'd read these things and there'd be personality
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: disorders would be all over the place. Dependent personality, obsessive
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: compulsive personality, paranoid personality. Around 1988, I noticed it started shifting.
• 22:33
  Speaker 2: where most people were the narcissistic disorders, which are called
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Cluster B. Borderline personality, sociopathic personality, narcissistic personality disorder. And
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: by the mid-90s, everybody had that. That's the only thing
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: you saw, and it was then from then on. So
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: why this sudden shift? And narcissism is not a common thing.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: At the beginning of the middle of the 19th century,
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: they debated whether it existed. It's not that common, but
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: it's a common thing. outcome from adverse childhood experiences. And
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: now I think people understand that divorce, domestic violence, having
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: a parent in prison, substance use in the home, these
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: are ACEs, adverse childhood experiences, and they result in narcissistic
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: strategies to adapt, to survive these situations. And so the
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: first thing I want to say is don't think about
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: these traits, these personality traits as all bad, right? People go, oh,
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: it's narcissists. Well, If you're a fighter pilot, I freaking
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: want a narcissist in the seat. Thank you very much.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean? And there are situations where
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: narcissism is not just adaptive. It's something you really want. Now,
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: if you're in an intimate relationship with that person, it
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: can get a little challenging. But it's not all bad.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: The bad part is as people accumulate more and more
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: narcissistic traits, and again, not disorder, just traits. Very few
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: people actually have the disorder, but lots of people have
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: the traits. As you develop more traits, you have a
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: proclivity to Empathic failure. When you're a narcissist, feelings don't
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: matter to you. They're like, whatever. They don't matter. And
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: when feelings don't matter, believe me, yours really don't matter.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: And they can fail in their ability to have any
• 24:14
  Speaker 2: empathic attunement, which is not good when you're in a relationship.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: And they're prone to envy. And envy is different than jealousy.
• 24:21
  Speaker 2: Jealousy is, as I define these things, jealousy is, Heather's
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: got a cool podcast. That makes me, oh, I wish
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: I had that. Makes me uncomfortable. Envy– and I'm going
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: to work hard to get it. Envy is Heather has
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: something I have. I've got to destroy her. I've got
• 24:35
  Speaker 2: to bring her down. That's envy. And think about all
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: the religious injunctions against envy, right? Every scripture, every.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: Well, it's just one of the seven deadly traits, right?
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: But it's the one that's always emphasized, right? Because it's
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: so destructive to society. And we are deep in it now.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: When I wrote that book you're talking about– I'm sorry
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: to ramble on here. No, go on. When I wrote
• 24:56
  Speaker 2: that book you're talking about, I wanted to write a
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: chapter about pre-revolutionary France. That was the only period of
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: history I could find where there was so much childhood trauma,
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: particularly sexualizing and sexual abuse and parents banning their kids.
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: What year is it in France?
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: Pre-revolutionary France. Just like 18, what would that be? 17, 18.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: What was going on? all the salons and all the
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: kids were, something like four out of five kids was
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: left in orphanages. I mean, just horrible stuff for children.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: And we sort of went unnoticed. And guess what happened?
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: Guillotines came out. Because when people have envy, they'll start
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: destroying each other unless they have a collective way to
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: focus their aggression, a scapegoat. And I thought, oh, we're
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: going to have the guillotines. I knew it. I didn't
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: know Twitter would be the mechanism that cancel society would
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: be it. But I knew we were going to have it.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: I wanted to write about it. And they were, no,
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: too speculative. You can't do that. Now I sound like
• 25:51
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying it as though I was going to
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: write about it. But know that cancel culture is the
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: modern guillotine. And it comes from all that envy. And
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: that comes from all the injury and narcissism. Interesting, right?
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Because social media is available where everyone can speak their mind.
• 26:07
  Speaker 2: They can act out. They can act out their aggression.
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: And they can act out collectively. It feels good. Societies
• 26:14
  Speaker 2: have a way of using scapegoating as tying people together,
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: the tribe. So they focus on an out group, an
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: out person that focuses the aggression away from the in group.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: You bond the in group against the out group. It's
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: very primitive. It's very stupid. It's not the way to
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: run a society. But here we are.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: I've had someone say that I love myself too much.
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: You?
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: Let's think about that.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: Can you love yourself too much?
• 26:43
  Speaker 2: Well, it's the whole, all the rhetoric around loving yourself,
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: I find, I don't think this.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: I feel like everyone's telling you to do that. Take
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: care of yourself. Put your mask on.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: First before you're a kid. Gotta love yourself first before
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: you love somebody else.
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: Body positivity. Love, love, love, love. And then it's like, oh,
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: she just loves herself too much.
• 27:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So most of that love yourself stuff I find,
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: and this is the kindest way I can describe it, distasteful.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: And again, not very accurate. So you can't say, what
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: are you talking about? Yeah, you should like parts of yourself.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: You should integrate yourself. You should have, you know, all
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: parts of yourself. You should be using all parts of yourself.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: But you really shouldn't be worrying about loving yourself. I mean,
• 27:24
  Speaker 2: you should like yourself or you should like what you
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: do in the world. But really, your focus should be
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: what you can do to help other people, what you
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: can do in the world. And you'll naturally kind of
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: like yourself. It just happens that way. So you love
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: yourself too much. I can sign off on that. So
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: why don't I just give you that one? Heather loves
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: herself too much.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: I do. I do enjoy myself.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: I was going to say, that's what I see is
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: that you enjoy yourself. You don't love yourself. You enjoy yourself.
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: You think you're funny. You think you have a good
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: time when you're traveling. You think you like, you think
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: you have enjoyed this and the podcasting. What's wrong with that?
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: What's wrong with enjoying yourself?
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: I guess I'm happy I do what I do, and
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: I'm happy it brings joy, and I'm grateful for that.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: And you include other people in this. I mean, you
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: went to a Christmas. You had a beautiful Christmas party.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: You just brought us in. Or your birthday party. It
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: was your birthday party.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: No, it was my Christmas party.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: Your Christmas party, okay. How do you not know.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: When my birthday is? Just kidding. It's June 14th, Flag Day.
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: It's very easy to remember.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: All right, so I won't never forget.
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Do you know my assistant has the same birthday? Is
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: that weird?
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: That is weird. Interesting.
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: It's cute.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: So cute. But here's why it's– to enjoy yourself the
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: way you do, you can also laugh at yourself. And
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: that's the critical ingredient, right?
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Not to take yourself too seriously.
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: Enough about me. That was a little narcissistic. Anyway. It was.
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: So what do we– because I did– we talked a
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: lot about the Jada and Will thing the last couple days.
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: And we– Can.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: I just add something to that?
• 28:55
  Speaker 6: Yes, please.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Away from narcissism.
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 28:57
  Speaker 2: Anybody that's engaged in these open relationships and polyamory and stuff,
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: do not judge. Nobody should judge them. They should do
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: whatever they want to do. I can just tell you
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: if somebody's been working in mental health for three decades,
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: it doesn't end well. It may work for a while. Now,
• 29:13
  Speaker 2: a lot of things, and what those people usually say is, well,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: monogamous relationships don't end well either. True. Well, absolutely. But
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: it is rare, and I mean rare, that I see
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: these boundary-less relationships work out. It ends up with a
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: lot of heavy feelings, a lot of problems down the road.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: There are armies of people trying to teach two people
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: how to have a relationship. You know what I mean?
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: When you bring more things in, at the very minimum,
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: you must experience feelings that you don't anticipate. And sometimes
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: those feelings disrupt the primary relationship. They just do.
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: I just don't see where you can keep the same
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: love and commitment that you would have with other people.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure there's plenty of people that have
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: an arrangement, especially if you're really wealthy.
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: Where you're both like, good, screw him. I don't want
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: to screw him anymore. And he's like, I don't care
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: what she does, but I don't want to split up
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: this empire.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Well, so it becomes sort of married in name only
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: or married as a business. Good on them.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: Fine. But they might live okay lives in this separate
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: compartmental thing. But they're still not– they still– are like
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: not in love with that person in a way of
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: like true commitment or one or both are actually lonely,
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: you know?
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: Right. That usually ends up like Ozark. Things sort of
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: get weird. But I'm being facetious when I say that.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: I don't mean that literally. But I would say, though,
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: that these independent lives, fine, good on them, whatever. But
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: don't then advertise this as a great thing. Because that's
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: not– that's the opposite of a really good love relationship. Now,
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: if you want to advertise it as a way a marriage,
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: as a business can operate, okay, that's fine. But it's
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: not the thing that a lot of people are looking for,
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: which is real intimacy. And that requires time and commitment
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: and passion and friendship. And you have to feed that
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: all the time. And to move it– to let it
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: separate or bring other people in, it just gets very– Wonky,
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: very quickly.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, I'm thinking about, you know, Kylie and,
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: what's his name?
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: Travis.
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: Travis Scott. Travis Scott. And they had this big Women's
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Wear Daily, or was it Vogue?
• 31:29
  Speaker 5: I don't know.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: They had this big article in there that actually got
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: pulled from the shelves in the aftermath of Astroworld. And
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: it was, you know, beautiful shots of them. Some people
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: got the magazine and it got out. Mm-hmm. And it
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: was beautiful shots of them and artistic and everything. She
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: pregnant with her second child, Stormy, though they've never been married.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: And it was basically like, well, we're committed as a family,
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: but we're not together.
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: I don't know what that means.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: I think what it was.
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: And then they'll say, oh, I don't need a piece
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: of paper to do that.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: No, but I think what it meant, and this is
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: just me analyzing it as like what I see, is
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: I think they really are. In love and a couple.
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: But I think they say that because if he gets
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: seen with another woman or it gets out or he
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: does a concert and some chicks come back to the
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: hotel and those girls share it on Instagram, whatever, I
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: think then it's almost like might be a protective mechanism
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: to be like, I'm okay with that. I'm okay with
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: it right now. Because he's not going to have children
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: with those people. And he's not, you know, we have
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: a commitment.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: It sounds to me like I'll settle for that.
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: But I'm thinking just because the public, I'm saying the
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: public persona, like almost like I want to be with
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: this person, but I'm not. And I'm not. I'm just
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: saying this could be her point of view. I'm a billionaire.
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: This is who I want to have kids with. This
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: is who I like being with. But I'm also smart.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: And based on his business and who he hangs out
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: with and everything, there's an excellent chance that in the
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: next five years that we're still procreating and being parents together,
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: there might be a chick who comes forward like the
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: Tristan Thompson girl. That's Chloe's ex or boyfriend. I don't
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: know what they are. So I'm just going to say
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: it right now so that I won't be humiliated when
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: that happens.
• 33:26
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I get it.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Because I'll be like, I wasn't in La La Land.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: Because everyone wants to say that when these high-profile women
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: that proclaim their love and have this couple goals that
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: everyone says, and then he is seen as cheating. The
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: woman is so humiliated, and she's like, oh my God,
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: I wouldn't have cared if you cheated. But now that
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: the world knows... I have to break up with you. Like,
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: if you would have just had a wild Vegas night,
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: I really wouldn't have given a shit.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: How about they not do that? How about they actually commit?
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: I know, but I'm saying I just wonder.
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: To me, that's the part that's... I just wonder when you.
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: Get to the stratosphere of, like, billionaires and movie stars
• 34:04
  Speaker 1: and rock stars, and it's like, I really want this person,
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: but I'm not... The chance of him never cheating on
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: me in 2022 and his business and everything.
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, my experience, though, has been... When I see these
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: people in professional settings and the door is closed, they're
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: exactly the same as everybody else, want exactly the same things,
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: and are pissed and heartbroken when they don't get it.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: That's it. Same.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: You mean when their spouse isn't loyal.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: When they're let down. Yeah, they're let down. Same. Exact.
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: Everything is the same. Now, they settle for all kinds
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: of things. And what makes somebody settle, that's the stuff
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: you're talking about, I think. Yeah. And then they'll say, oh, Mary,
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: just a piece of paper. Please tell me any other
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: contract we have that you don't use a piece of paper.
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: Marriage is a contract, and it's the only contract you
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: make with society to stay committed to that person. And
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: it makes a difference when you sign a contract. You
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: think about it. You get through stuff you wouldn't otherwise
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: get through if you didn't have your name on a
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: sacred contract. I mean, it's so absurd when people go,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: it's just a piece of paper. Yeah, like every contract.
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: Every contract is a piece of paper. So give me
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: a break. Let me just point out. So my two
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: points about this thing. One is that kind of relationship
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: is extremely stressful. It is very stressful and people get
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: very spun emotionally. That's just a fact. Number one. Number two,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: the other fact is when somebody behaves in a way
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: that violates normal behavioral boundaries, I've seen lots of those
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: folks too. When you go in the room and shut
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: the door and find out what's really going on, it's
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: way worse than you imagine. Way worse. Whatever causes somebody
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: to act out in a public setting where any reasonable
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: person would go, no, this is it. Academy Awards, you know,
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: get up and punch. There's a lot more going on
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: than we know.
• 35:52
  Speaker 5: A lot.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: And whatever goes public, he's entitled to his confidentiality with that.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: But the reality is, I promise you, much different than
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: we're ever going to know.
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But no, I mean, I just said, you know,
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: sometimes it can be... And now there's a lot of
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: shift blaming on Jada, so I don't want to blame
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Jada for his actions. And his actions... We're hearing that
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: he wasn't always a delight on set. He wasn't always
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: a delight at home.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: Did you see his interviews around his book when he
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: came out and talked about the horrible violence in his home?
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: And he said, I'm not the person. Will Smith is
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: this kid. It reminded me of Bruce Jenner going, I
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: created this character and inside I felt like a woman.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: It reminded me exactly of that. He said, Will Smith
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: that you know, that's not me. You don't know who
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: I am.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Wouldn't that be amazing if Will Smith came out?
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: No, I'm not saying it didn't.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: I know, but I just thought that would be fun.
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: It would be fun. But that's not what I was
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: talking about. But it would be fun. It would be fun.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: It did remind me of Bruce saying that because when
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: Bruce talks about that, it breaks my heart. You know,
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: when Caitlin talks about it.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, when people, you know, and like looking
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: back and he was on the Red Table Talk, I
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: just saw this clip today. You know, everyone's pulling up
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: these clips, you know. And he says... on your 37th birthday,
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: he's there with his mother-in-law and Willow, the daughter who's like,
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: you know, 18 or something. And of course, Jada. And
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: he goes, when it was Jada's 37th birthday, the next
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: day I said, I'm going to plan the 40th birthday.
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: It's going to be so epic. I spent three years
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: planning it. And, you know, it was going to be
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: this and this place and it was gorgeous and everything.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: And he goes, and then Jada didn't like it. And
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: J and I said, why didn't you like it? I
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: did this all for you. And she said, no, you
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: did it for you. And then Willow goes, and the grandma.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: Goes, Oh, and I was like, so, so you.
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, I just thought that was so mean. And
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: also that the three women were all like.
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: That's because there must be a load of shit underneath
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: that that we don't know about.
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: Right. I mean, I don't know.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: You can either say that she's like a really a
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: heartless narcissist, which I don't think so. I think when
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: women are at their wits end with men, that's how
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: they behave. When they really, men just are unresponsive to
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: years of complaints. That's the way women behave.
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: And I also think like, you know, and I said
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: this on Nightline, the couple goals thing It's also a
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: lot of pressure for these couples.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: Like, just, you know, we are, not only for society,
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: but for black America, couple goals. Like, it's just so
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: much pressure. It's unfair. Like, I mean, I feel that
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: way about Chrissy, and a lot of people don't like
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: Chrissy Teigen, but just the Chrissy Teigen, John Legend, the
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: cuteness of their family and their dynamic and their fun
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: that we see behind, you know, on Instagram and stuff.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: I'm like, God. You know, I worry that, and I've
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: even said that, I worry about sometimes these couples wanting
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: to get out and literally the pressure of the world
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: keeps them in a bad marriage because they're like, I
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: just don't think I can let down the world like this.
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: It's like too much of a pedestal that you've put
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: me on.
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: But to be fair, I mean, people have done that
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: for their families forever. And this is the same kind
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: of sort of satisfying people other than yourself sometimes. And
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: sometimes that's good and sometimes that's bad. Yeah. So that's my,
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: you were saying what you and Josh said about, what
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: was it that Josh said?
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: Josh talked a lot about, you know, that, was that
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: slap actually just like, you know, the anger towards his situation?
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: at home or what, what was that all about? And I,
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: and I said, you know, sometimes it's not always the
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: man that's the narcissist and the toxic person, you know,
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: sometimes it can be the woman too. And that's why
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you. So what in, in the,
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: What are the traits that are different between a narcissistic
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: woman and a narcissistic man?
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: Well, first of all, narcissistic females are less common. They
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: usually manifest as a narcissistic disorder called borderline personality disorder.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: And when women become sociopaths, which does happen, they are
• 40:06
  Speaker 2: very dangerous. They are very dangerous.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: And what is a sociopath?
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: A sociopath is somebody... They're not a psychopath. Psychopaths really
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: don't have feelings. Like Elizabeth Holmes, if you watch Dropout.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: Oh, I'm obsessed with Dropout.
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: Okay. Well, they allude to psychopathy with some of the
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: things she says. That's them alluding to her being a psychopath.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: Well, that kind of makes sense to me because I'm
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: watching this show where I'm like, How does she keep
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: going knowing that this doesn't work? What is she thinking
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: that just one day she's going to walk in and
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: the lab is going to say it works?
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: Or we'll pivot to be a different kind of business.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: We've got all this money or who knows what she's thinking.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: The key is she doesn't have feelings about it. Remember
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: at one point she's talking to Sonny and she goes,
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: I don't feel things. I know I don't feel what
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: normal people feel. Remember that scene? She goes, I know
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: I love you, but that's about it. And I thought, oh,
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: there it is, that's psychopathy. Because psychopaths literally don't have
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: a functioning part of the brain where feelings occur. That's
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: different than sociopaths. Sociopaths have lots of feelings, but they
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: don't care about you except to the extent that you
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: can meet their needs. So you're just there for their
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: enjoyment and happiness. They'll exploit you. They'll abuse you. They
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: don't care. They don't care. They have total empathic. They're
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: capable of empathy, but they just don't. It's all about me.
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: It's all about me. narcissists lose track of feelings. That's
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: why women don't make narcissists very often. Usually they do
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: feel things. It's hard for women not to feel things.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: You have this big corpus callosum, so you're attached to
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: the right side of your brain, which is more holistic, bodily-based, feeling-connected.
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: And what you get is this borderline disorder, which is
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: actually embedded in chaotic relationships. It's part of the disorder,
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: is that you can't tolerate closeness very well. And the
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: female narcissists you know, the male, you know, becomes a
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: leader and is very self-assured and they build a big,
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: what narcissism fundamentally is, so let's talk about what the
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: fundamentals are. It's that you have an injury, you stop
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: going to the source of development, which is other people,
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: your primary caretakers, mom and dad. We need fueling from
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: mom and dad to build our emotional landscape. And we
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: could talk about how that works. We actually, the interpersonal
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: neurobiology has all been worked out pretty well now. So
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: there's certain interactions we need with our primary caretakers to
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: develop our sense of self and our emotional regulatory system.
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: When we've been injured narcissistically, we exit that frame and
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: we stop going where we need to get that developmental fuel.
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: And we start looking for ways to feel better in
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: the environment. And one of the ways is to collect
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: from the environment things that make you feel bigger and
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: better and more secure and more invincible. And that's the
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: pseudo-self on top of a very injured core that narcissists develop.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: And that pseudo self can be big and obnoxious. And
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: it can be, and because the, you know, emotions are.
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: And what do you mean? Like gaining fancy cars and
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: things or what?
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: More like, I mean, you know, Weinstein would be a
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: good example of a severe narcissist. I don't think he
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: was a sociopath. He just don't care about other people's feelings.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: And you want to keep getting from the environment. You
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: need this constant refueling of things to make you feel big.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: Because you've been injured and you feel small inside.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: Speaking of Weinstein, I just watched the Playboy documentary, 12
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: episodes on Amy. And, you know, a lot about Hugh Hefner.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: And it really came out that he's a full-blown rapist,
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: according to these women who shared their story. And I
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: just wonder, because I was like, does Hefner get to heaven? Like,
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: what is... Are there people like him that because this
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: became such a routine to just take a girl and
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: give her a pill and have sex with like a Cosby, whatever,
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: and it becomes so, do they literally even know that
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: they like are hurting someone?
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: No, I would say they typically don't. And, but you
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: have to be set up to be insensitive to that,
• 44:21
  Speaker 2: to do that in the first place.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: And then once you're reinforced by the environment and it's
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: no big deal and everybody's doing it, then it's easy
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: to keep going down that path. But you have to
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: be set up. Your personality has to first be non-empathic.
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: You have to not appreciate the impact of your behavior. Right.
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: And the fact that they do it ongoing, I think,
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: is more the social context for it. Really, it's very
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: deeply disturbing when you think about it. The whole sexual
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: revolution was built on that bullshit.
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 44:51
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: I know.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: It's just crazy when you think, you know, and just
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: how it affects, affected the women so much, you know, throughout.
• 45:00
  Speaker 2: Their entire life. And the men never really were aware
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: of it. They didn't acknowledge it.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 45:04
  Speaker 2: And women weren't allowed to talk about it. It's like, hey,
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: they wanted as much as the man does, and I
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: wanted it, so she wanted it. We just helped her out,
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: made her relax a little bit. Oh, with the quaaludes
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: and stuff.
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: That's the thinking.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: That's the fucked up thinking.
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: It's crazy. So, a couple questions there.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: And by the way, the TikTok you were talking about,
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: I did a TikTok on On how codependency can be
• 45:23
  Speaker 2: a narcissistic trait. It's not immediately obvious how these things
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: are narcissism, but these days they are.
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: Well, how does that work? I'm still confused by codependency.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: I still don't really understand who am I codependent?
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: In what sense?
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: I don't understand. Who is the codependent? Are you two
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: people dependent on each other? It sounds kind of beautiful
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: when you say that. Like, I'm just very, is that marriage? Like,
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: what is it?
• 45:52
  Speaker 2: Codependency is, let me see if I can define it
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: in a simple way. Very simple. The easiest way is enabling, right?
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: You continue to co-sign someone's behavior that's destructive without caring
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: about what the person is actually doing. You just want
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: to keep the peace or whatever it is that you need.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 46:14
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: And what you, so someone could be treating you badly
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: and you don't really call them on it or you
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: don't really, you know, stand up for yourself because you
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: just like, I just want this, I just want this
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: to end and I'll just suck it up and take it.
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: Even though it hurts me a lot, I'll just shake
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: it off. Does that make that person the codependent?
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: Possibly. That is a codependent construct, but it's not necessarily so. But,
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: but having said that, I mean, Where it comes from
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: fundamentally is when, remember I talked about the refueling the
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: kids need. Well, if a parent has narcissism or addiction,
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: they're not available for that refueling. In effect, they get
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: scary to the kids or they have contagion. A child
• 46:56
  Speaker 2: starts crying, they're making me crazy because they catch the
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: child's feelings, right? These are really destructive things in parenting.
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: So if you're loaded, if you're abandoning, if you're having contagion,
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: children just learn Whatever my feelings are, I have to
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: hide them because mom freaks out and drinks every time
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: I have a need. And I've got to focus on
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: her and make sure I keep her glued together and
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: take care of her feelings and make sure that's where
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: it comes from, right? That's sort of an extreme example, but.
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: It comes from that kind of situation.
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: So you end up– and you disregard your internal feeling states.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: Your emotional landscape gets completely disregarded and cut off sometimes. Narcissism, right?
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: And then you're busy out here. Now you go into
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: the world with that and you can be a super nice,
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: super caretaking person, but it's kind of a pseudo-narcissism in
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: that the reason you're motivated to be so focused on
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: other people is every time that other person has a feeling,
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: it motivates your feelings. And you get uncomfortable or you
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: feel pain and you need to stop it in that person.
• 48:04
  Speaker 2: You're not assessing what that person's needs are. You just
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: need it to stop. I need to rescue them. I
• 48:08
  Speaker 2: need to save them. I need to Make them better
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: so my pain stops. And so to that extent, it's narcissistic.
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: And so part of codependency is boundary problems, having difficulty
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: assessing where somebody else's, your feelings leave off and mine start.
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: So can, okay, so.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: I had that, by the way. I had a big
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: dose of that. I had a lot of therapy to
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: get through that. It's microsurgery to get.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: What was your issue?
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: Oh, my mom was nutty. I've told you that before here, right?
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I just wanted to.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: You just want to repeat it.
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: Well, I didn't know you were going to share that
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: with the people.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, whatever you want. You can ask questions. I'm happy.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: I am open book. I got nothing.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I did remember you told me that, like,
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: you know, when I look at someone like you, I think,
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: you know, my God, if you were my son, I
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: would be so beyond proud. I'd enjoy spending time with you.
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: And I didn't get any of that.
• 49:03
  Speaker 1: You got like no accolades really.
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: No, I only got was, well, when are you going
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: to do this? And when are you going to do that? Like,
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: what's wrong with you?
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: Even though you're like an opera singer, a doctor, a
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: beautiful family TV.
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: No. Yeah.
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: And certainly didn't really want to spend time with me,
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: especially either. That wouldn't have been something on the radar.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: That's just so bizarre. That is– I just don't understand that.
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: Susan and I were talking about it yesterday, in fact.
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: And she was saying– Susan was saying, you know, your
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: mom– My mom had this weird life where she had
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: a life before my dad. Do you know this story?
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: No.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: Oh, my God. This is juicy.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: Okay, good. Tell it.
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: Okay. So I was– let me just remind myself to
• 49:46
  Speaker 2: comment on what Susan said yesterday. Bring it all the
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: way home.
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: So I was on the radio. The guy I wrote
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: the narcissism book with, and he is a fan of
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: film noir, right? And he wanted to– he was curious
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: about what I did on Leveling. He started showing up
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: with me and going in with me at work. And
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: one night he goes, you know, I was telling him
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: the story. My mom was in films and was in
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: a lot of 50s television, like Highway Patrol.
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: Oh, she was an actress.
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: She was a opera singer.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: Oh, wow.
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: Who ended up sort of being a singer for big bands.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: And got picked up, I think, by Columbia Pictures and
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: did a bunch of Johnny Weissmiller films. And then a
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: bunch of always playing a villain, always a villain, in
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: like Highway Patrol and all these old TV shows.
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: She did a lot of that stuff. regaled me her
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: whole life with stories about Carolyn Jones and Barbara Eden
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: and all her friends and Anne Bancroft. These were all
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: her friends, blah, blah, blah.
• 50:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: Fine, fine, fine. Interesting. I admired that. I actually was
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: sort of, I liked hearing about that. Well, my friend,
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: I wrote the book, was there on the radio one night.
• 50:48
  Speaker 2: And during the break, he comes in, he goes, oh,
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: I found a website dedicated to your mom. I go, oh, really?
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: Because in the early days of Google. Yeah, yeah. And
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: he goes, yeah, Aline Sandsbury was, left Philadelphia, age 18,
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: married Will something. 60-year-old silent film star. And I was like.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: Wait, when she was 18, she married a 60-year-old?
• 51:07
  Speaker 2: Yes, silent film star.
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: And you had no idea?
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: Knew nothing about it. Zero. Was married to him for
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: like 14 years or something. Knew zero. And I was like, well,
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: that's interesting. And my friend Mark was like, what, you
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: don't know? I go, no, never, ever. This gets juicier
• 51:22
  Speaker 2: and juicier.
• 51:22
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: You want to keep going? Continue, yes.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: Okay, all right. So I was like... Okay. Uh, fantastic. Uh, interesting. Uh,
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: I had a weird reaction. I'm like, somebody owe me
• 51:34
  Speaker 2: some money. Is this, he's a film star. Is that he,
• 51:37
  Speaker 2: that was, she was wife number six, uh, of at 18,
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: something terrible must've been going on at home to leave Philadelphia,
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: come out here with a 60 or 55 year old,
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: whatever he was, it was wife number five or six,
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: you know, an elderly gentleman, uh, came out here, uh,
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: And I found out that and my sister, I told
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: her and she freaked out. And I said, my mom
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: was like 85 at the time or something. I said, look,
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: she made it this far. If she wants to take
• 52:03
  Speaker 2: it to her grave, let her do it. Don't do
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: that to her. You know what I mean? She's like
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: Don Draper.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: So she was married to him for 14 years. Something
• 52:11
  Speaker 1: like that. So like whatever, 33, 34, then she got
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: married to your dad?
• 52:15
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 52:17
  Speaker 2: But hang on, it gets better. Yeah. So fast forward
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: a month, I'm doing something, you know, Corolla and I
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: would go out and do these, do shows. Yeah. And
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: we were doing one at a big theater in Santa
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: Barbara and we had a meet and greet before him.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: And this woman comes up to me and goes, I
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: have to make an amends to you for my grandfather.
• 52:33
  Speaker 2: And I'm like, what? Your grandpa? She was married to
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: my mom. He was married to my mom, to your mom.
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: And her stepson, where did this come from, was my father.
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: So my mom had a stepson, which I didn't know about. And, yeah.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: And she goes, he lives in Stockton. He's a retired dentist.
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: Here's his phone number. I went, fantastic. I will call him,
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: which I did. Okay. And so she was his mom
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: for 10 years. And then, if you want to know narcissism,
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: because my mom has kind of a mixed disorder. But
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: one day, she sat him down. She goes, I'm leaving.
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: And he never saw her again.
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: The son. The stepson.
• 53:10
  Speaker 2: To a child. To an 8, 15-year-old or wherever he was.
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 53:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 53:13
  Speaker 2: That's an appropriate reaction. Yeah. Like, you did that to
• 53:16
  Speaker 2: your stepson? Never spoken of again. Never saw him again.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: And he didn't have a lot of feelings about it
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: because his dad was a jerk apparently. And he was
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: so funny. He goes, yeah, every Sunday night, he goes,
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: they would have a party and they drank a little bit. And,
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: you know, this couple would come every Sunday night for years.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: The father, the man, the gentleman was a character actor.
• 53:38
  Speaker 2: You've seen him. I didn't recognize the name. And he goes,
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: but the woman, he goes, I don't know. Maybe you've
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: heard of her. She played Granny in the Beverly Hillbillies.
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: I'm like, what?
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: Irene, what's her name? Irene.
• 53:49
  Speaker 6: I don't know.
• 53:49
  Speaker 2: I was like, I've watched that show my entire childhood.
• 53:52
  Speaker 2: She'd talk about, Barbara Eden never mentioned this woman that
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: she saw every week because it was too close probably
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: to all this stuff.
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: So it was probably on in your living room.
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: Constantly. It was one of my favorite shows as a kid.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: And this was a woman she knew really well.
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: Every week, they were in their house.
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: Do you think they were swingers?
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: Irene Ryan? Irene Ryan, yeah, thank you.
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you're going to get to that part.
• 54:13
  Speaker 2: No well i i'm sure i want to hear that
• 54:15
  Speaker 2: but but so you so you remember susan had her
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: maybe remember susan had her uh yeah think of my
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: poor kids and all the shit we talk about the
• 54:23
  Speaker 2: shoes that i talk about and you've you've put on
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: the hot plate a couple times um so you're proud
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: of yourself um so uh shoot oh so you know
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: susan had that psychic show right yeah and uh She,
• 54:40
  Speaker 2: without announcing it, she brought my mom in twice, right?
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 54:44
  Speaker 2: One was, what's the name of famous, very famous male psychic?
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: She had him in this one day play.
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: Tyler Henry?
• 54:50
  Speaker 5: No, no, no, no.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: Before, old school, old school.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: John, I know who you mean.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: No, no, not John, not John. Van, Van, this psychic Van, Van, Van,
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: Van Prog. Yeah, Von Prog, yeah. Van Prog was there.
• 55:04
  Speaker 2: She's on the phone. He doesn't know who he's interviewing.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: And he goes, first thing, he goes, We're going to
• 55:09
  Speaker 2: go more than an hour.
• 55:10
  Speaker 1: No, it's fine.
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: Go ahead.
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: She just has to let me know. I know.
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: I understand. But I'm just saying don't.
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: This is too good.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: My mom comes on the phone. It's Van Praag. And
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: the first thing he says, he goes, your husband's here.
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: And she goes, oh, hi, Mort. My dad's name. And
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: he goes, no, no. He says he's your first husband.
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: And my mom goes, nope. No such thing. I don't
• 55:33
  Speaker 2: know what you're talking about. I don't know what you're
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: talking about.
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: Because she never told you.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: Complete, total denial.
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: But you and Susan knew.
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: We knew at that point.
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 55:41
  Speaker 2: She came back six months later, different psychic, the exact
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: same thing. And she just went, nope. And the psychic
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: got insistent. And she's like, I don't know what you're
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: talking about. I don't know what you're talking about. There's
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: no such thing.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: That's actually so funny. Because I remember I asked a
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: psychic that once.
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: I said, okay, what if, like, you don't want to
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: see your dead husband in heaven. Like, you know, can
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: you like escape them? Like what the hell? And, um,
• 56:12
  Speaker 1: I don't think anyone really knows that unless you get to.
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: Heaven, but like, just deny it. And it reminded me
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: of Don Draper in that scene when he was in
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: the psych hospital with Peggy and he goes, you don't understand.
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: It just didn't happen. And that was her mindset. It
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: just didn't happen. So what Susan and I were talking
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: about to bring it full circle, she was going, yeah, yeah.
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: She had all these personality problems and she probably had
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: some bad trauma, no doubt. Um, But she also relinquished
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: her career when she birthed me and already had lots
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: of conflicted feelings about men. And I got the full
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: brunt of that. That's what came down on me, which
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: was you ruined my career. My husband was an asshole.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: Somebody abused me when I was a kid. Now it's on.
• 56:53
  Speaker 2: Mommy dearest type stuff.
• 56:57
  Speaker 1: Did you have wire hangers?
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: No, it was mostly really wild, crazy yelling. Never hitting,
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: never hitting. Like a lot of emotional abuse.
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that is crazy. Well, I definitely think there's an element, unfortunately, with,
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: and again, just so bizarre to me, of parents being
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: jealous of their kids. There's an element of moms being
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: jealous of their daughters when the daughter marries really well
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: and maybe is in a really loving relationship.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: Women do that. Let's be honest.
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: Also definitely with success, if parents, If they succeed in
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: something that they felt they gave up for that person.
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: Correct. But in my case, both of the issues with
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: me were narcissistic, which was I was an extension of
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: them and had no existence except what they needed me
• 57:43
  Speaker 2: to do for them. That's narcissism, right? My dad a
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: little less so. My mom explicitly. Whatever success I had,
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: they co-opted. But they couldn't acknowledge me as separate and go,
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: good job, ever. They just co-opted it as theirs.
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 58:00
  Speaker 2: It should make you angry. It kind of does make
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: me angry.
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: But it was at the point where I was like,
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: deep in therapy, whatever. I forgive you. I found forgiveness.
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: My dad was an amazing grandfather. And that was so
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: meaningful to me. You have no idea.
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: But she was not into the grandchildren.
• 58:16
  Speaker 4: No.
• 58:17
  Speaker 2: She didn't have an inner. She didn't have the.
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: I know. I think that's also really interesting, too, when
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: people are like mad that they're. Or they bring up
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: the fact that their parents are not into being grandparents.
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: It's odd.
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: It is odd. But at the same time, you know,
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: I'm like, well, they did sign up to be a parent.
• 58:37
  Speaker 1: But maybe they didn't sign up to be the greatest grandparent.
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: And then. The more common thing is, I can't believe
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: you do this for the grandchildren and you never would
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: have done that for me. It's usually that. It's like
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: the second chance.
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: I could see that feeling, but we were in survival
• 58:53
  Speaker 2: mode with triplets and stuff. And I was just so
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: grateful to have another, somebody really involved. He was great.
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, and they loved, loved, loved him. And so
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: it was good.
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. So when they were together and they were helping
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: with the triplets, because you have triplets, would she just
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: like go in the bathroom? I mean, would she really
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: not participate?
• 59:10
  Speaker 2: She was... I appreciated that she dedicated some manpower and
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: time when we needed to travel and stuff like that,
• 59:17
  Speaker 2: which was much appreciated. But she would, like, bring a
• 59:20
  Speaker 2: little TV set and watch TV in the kitchen, oddly.
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: Wouldn't watch with everybody else. And or would play with
• 59:26
  Speaker 2: the dogs. And so....
• 59:31
  Speaker 1: That is so juicy and weird. Not just juicy, but weird.
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: Anyway, I'm grateful now. I'm happy. I have really no
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: resentments or anything for anybody. I mean, I have a
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: little bit of, hey, you don't do that to a kid.
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: Give me a fucking break. A little bit of like,
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to let you off the hook. But
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: I personally don't feel. I have lots of good therapy.
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: Got good attachment to my therapist. I have a great
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: family and relationship and everything's worked out. So, I mean,
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: and I'm sure that's what my mom would say. It
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: would be like, it worked out, didn't it? Yeah. She
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: would feel justified in all of.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 5: It, I'm sure.
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: Well, Peter and I always joke because we watch these
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: shows where, you know, these stories of extremely successful people
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: who say, well, my mother wasn't there. They never said
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 1: I love them. My dad never hugged me. And then
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: we're like, what's your story going to be? That we
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: just loved you too much?
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: Is that going to be the thing that, like, I
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: don't have a good story because you guys were too around?
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you two played too gratifying. You didn't let us struggle.
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: That's kind of narcissistic. That's sort of a narcissistic parenting style, right?
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: I can't stand to see you suffer. I have to
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: quickly stop.
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: I don't think it's that, but I'm just saying like
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: that we love.
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying that's a stop. I'm not saying you particularly.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying like you can't do it right because
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: what if the next generation, there's a whole bunch of
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: people in therapy because their parents were too loving and
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: too wonderful and they were too secure in their own home.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: No perfect parent. It does not exist. It does not exist. Right.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: But the bad parenting, so-called abusive parenting, the children go
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: one of two ways. They become the hero or they
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 2: become the scapegoat. And they either like end up like
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: me and they're doing too much or they end up
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 2: on the street, you know, bad. Yeah.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 4: Good.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: So it's a high stakes game when you do that
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: kind of parenting, when you hit a kid, when you're
• 1:01:22
  Speaker 2: too intrusive into them, it goes one way or the other.
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: Well, okay. So let's say you're in a relationship, you know,
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: a marriage that you want to stay in and you realize,
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: I think maybe our issues are that my spouse is
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: a narcissist and, What can you, what if you just go,
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: is there any help for this person? Cause they, they're
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: not going to go to one. They are not going
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: to go to therapy because they don't think there's anything
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: wrong with them. Which someone also said that, you know,
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: there aren't a lot of diagnosed narcissists because they don't
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: seek the help because they don't think there's anything wrong
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: with them. So is there a way that you can
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 1: do something to stay in that without it affecting you
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 1: in such a hurtful, like, like once you, like if
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: you had a child that, you know, was diagnosed with
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: some type of special needs or autism or whatever, then
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: you're going to cut them a lot of slack versus
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: a child that doesn't have any of that. So if
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: you can diagnose your spouse with some personality disorder or something,
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: like a late-in-life diagnosis, can that help you stay in
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: it without getting hurt so much?
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: I think... Oh, boy, that's a hard question. I think
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 2: if you... I think the problems... can be solved interpersonally, okay, often. Now,
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: you have to first decide, am I in or am
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: I out? You have to really decide, is it gone
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 2: too far? Do I feel completely not into this relationship?
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: Is it too painful or not? But if you still
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: love them, you still have passion for them, you still
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: feel the commitment, and you feel as though it's safe enough,
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: trustworthy enough that you want to make a go of it, okay.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: And first things, first order of business is to stop fighting, really,
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 2: which is what ends up happening with the narcissist, a
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: lot of fighting. You have to find strategies to keep
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: in your mind.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: Do you think they just like to fight? They like
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: want to start an argument.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 2: Sometimes, sometimes. It depends on what kind. There's different flavors
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: of narcissists out there. There's lots of narcissistic traits these days.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: But most people are not that bad. And you can
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: sort of say, all right, I'm going to find a
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: way to not have to win these arguments. Because when
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: somebody wins, the relationship loses. You have to find sort
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: of an area of peace.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: That's another thing I heard is that you'll never win.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: You will not win.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 1: So once you realize you'll never win, then you're like.
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: And you may not get what you imagine are your needs, too,
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: that may not be on the table for you, right? Right.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: If that's important to you, you need somebody loving and available,
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: you may have to start over. Yeah. But But oftentimes,
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: if you're with this person, you're with the person because
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 2: your mom or dad was that way also. So you're
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: already somebody who sort of likes, so to speak, or
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: attaches to people with these disorders. The question is, has
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: substance or something else made this now so big that
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: you can't tolerate it, right? Or just too much time
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: has gone by. But you've got to think these things
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: through yourself. And sometimes it requires your own therapist to
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: figure that out. But even though the narcissist won't do
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: individual therapy, they often will do couples therapy. And often
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: you can sort of get them into the frame where
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: you can improve the attachment between the two people, make
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: it a little more organized and secure. And that helps
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: with all those traits. It helps with everything. So it
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 2: really is about the security of attachment. It's interesting when
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: attachments become secure. There's four different kinds of attachments, and
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: adults have attachments the way children have attachments. When you
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: help somebody build a secure attachment, some of the character
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: stuff settles down if somebody's got issues that way. So
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: that's where I would look to bring them into the fray.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 2: And by the way, you're going to be happier too.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: You may not get all those needs met that you want,
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: but they don't have that. They just don't have it.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: And you can learn to be grateful for what you
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 2: do have. Usually there are things that you're focused on
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: that you really do like about that person. Focus on that.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Okay.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: Let's also talk about now Kanye dropped out of Coachella
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: and he says he's going away to get help. Will
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: said he's going to some place.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: Shocking.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: And, you know, I guess there are these places now
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: where not necessarily an addict, but like.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we call those psychiatric hospitals.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: No, I think it's cuter than that.
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: I know, but that's what they are. Oh, okay. We
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: just put them in houses now and bring nurses and
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: doctors and social workers and psychologists and vocational rehab specialists.
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: Because you can afford it.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: People don't like the idea of psychiatric hospitals, so we
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 2: take the actual treatment of a psychiatric hospital and we
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: put it into a.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: different shell well kanye said.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: To be fair it's licensed differently and that kind of.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 1: Thing kanye said he's going away too okay but i
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: don't know if he's doing that or if he's yeah.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: I mean i hope they're not going for like yoga
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: and vegan food because that's not going to help won't
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: hurt but it will not help them you know those
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: kinds of getaways too Right.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: What do you think with Kanye, with everything he's been doing?
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: What's your diagnosis of that?
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: He has obfuscated his bipolar diagnosis. His mom used to
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 2: talk about him being bipolar and that she was in
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 2: charge of his medication, and that was what kept him
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 2: nice and stable. She really looked after that problem. He
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: now is in denial. It's called anosognosia. If he has
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 2: serious mental illness, I don't know. Bipolar does get overdiagnosed.
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: Maybe they misdiagnosed him. I don't know. But if he
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: has that proclivity... It's going to get a little rocky.
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 2: Mood disturbances are very challenging. Again, celebrities have the exact
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 2: same neurobiological, neuropsychiatric stuff as all of us. They're not different.
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 2: They're not special. And to the extent they get special care,
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: they're getting substandard care. That's Michael Jackson. Special care, you
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 2: end up bad outcomes. Bad outcomes. Right.
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: What do you think about Britney?
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: Now that she's free.
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: Do you follow her on Instagram?
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 2: I don't.
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: How can you not follow her on the ground, Drew?
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 2: Bless her heart. Bless her heart.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: She does fashion shows eight a day.
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: So good for her.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: Wow. So we know she has bipolar disorder. It's not
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 2: a maybe. And she had such bad bipolar disorder that
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: her life was so seriously jeopardized that not only was
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: she put on a 72-hour hold, but if you remember...
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: After she shaved her head, which, by the way, is
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: a manic symptom when people shave their head all of
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 2: a sudden. Also, face tattoos, another manic symptom. Not categorically so,
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: but commonly so.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: Do you think, like, if someone does just, like, a
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: little star or, like, a game tier? But you mean, like, a...
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: What's his name?
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 2: Post Malone. Well, no, like Mike Tyson. He was probably
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 2: in a bipolar state.
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: But not a Post Malone? What did he do? Well,
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: I just feel like he has... I just feel like
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: he has so many on that it's sort of like
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: a look then.
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 2: Right. He and like Davidson. Maybe just a style. Yeah,
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 2: I don't know what that is. It's a little different.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 2: It's the peep back over the eye.
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't think Pete has any on his face yet. Well,
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: of course, Travis Barker, he and Kourtney just got married
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: and he has all over.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: His face?
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, hairline. Yeah, hairline is different. Hairline is different than face.
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 4: It is.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 1: Interesting.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: But anyway, hairline is more of the trauma stuff, you know,
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: hair and scalp and stuff. People have trauma do that stuff.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, I can't imagine. Wouldn't that be so painful? Yeah. Okay.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: So we know that she had bad enough bipolar that
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: she was on a 72-hour hold. Then now you're worried
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: about what it feels like.
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 1: Yes, I just think.
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 2: You like yourself too much.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 1: I have no tattoos. I'm not going to hurt this baby.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: This ship.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 2: So 72-hour hold, then a 14-day hold. To get on
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: a 14-day hold, you actually have to see a judge
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 2: in the hospital who deems you so severely ill. That
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 2: you cannot leave the house. Very rare to do that.
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, people, fans of hers would say that that
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 1: was all calculated to take over her money.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: Impossible. They don't know who the judge is. The judge
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 2: is appointed, comes in, does the hearing. Period.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't want to go through the whole. But
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: hold on. I'm just making a case.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: Of how severe her disorder was. And then a psychiatrist
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 2: thought it was bad enough to apply for a conservatorship.
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: You don't get more mentally ill than that. That's as
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 2: mentally ill as you can possibly be. where you have
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: a 14-day hold and then a conservatorship. That's reserved for
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: the sickest, serious mental illness. So then she went on conservatorship,
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: and it was approved, which is even another level, but
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: I won't even argue about that. And she stays in it. Now,
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: she did great in it. I mean, they saved her
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: life by putting her in it. She would be dead now,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: for sure, 100%, if they hadn't done that. There's often
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: sort of chaotic drug use and stuff like that that
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: goes along with this, and that's often how they die.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 2: But they saved her life. They got her back working.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: She was, what, 12 years on conservatorship or something, or
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: 14 years?
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 1: 13.
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and then wanted to try off. She should try off.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: I completely, a thousand percent support that. I could walk
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: out at the Starbucks where I got you your coffee,
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: two guys that needed conservatorship more than Britney Spears, just
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: sitting at the Starbucks. A lot of people need conservatorship
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 2: more than Britney Spears.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: And they're at the Starbucks.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: And they're everywhere here in Los Angeles. And so if
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: she wants to try off conservatorship, because she's done so well, okay,
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 2: give her a chance. It may not go well, but
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: give her a chance. Why not?
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 1: I think it's going fine. So far. You know, I
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: think it's kind of sad that her only outlet is Instagram.
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 1: And she is sharing way too much on it, in
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: my opinion.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: And....
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 1: She is such a talent, but I don't think she
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: is ready or knows how to then go and do
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: a show or want to do a show because here
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: she did these shows for so long. And then I
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 1: think she was doing so well and she had clarity.
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: And I think that's when she realized like, fuck, why
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: am I working? I don't get to do what I
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: want to do. And then she was like– and that's
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: when she said, I'm not going to do this next
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 1: big run in Vegas.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: And then all this stuff came out.
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: But imagine you're someone who wants to produce a show
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: with her now. You're not going to be feeling very
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: secure about it. You know what I mean? You may
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: not put the money down to do it.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 1: What is your prediction about her future as an artist?
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 2: I have no idea. But she will decompensate. It will happen.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: I don't know whether it will be a mania or
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 2: a depression, but something will happen. And the question is,
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: will she get care? And will she take the care?
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 2: That's all. If she takes the care and understands she
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: has an illness and listens to her doctors.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: Wait, you think she will have a breakdown?
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: She will have a decompensation.
• 1:11:59
  Speaker 1: What is it called? A D what?
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: Decompensation. It's in the nature of these conditions. They get
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 2: better and they get worse, get better and they get worse.
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: So she will have a decompensation. I can pretty much
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: promise you, but it may not be for 10 years,
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: you know, and if in those 10 years she wants
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: to be off conservatorship.
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, speaking about like Instagram and stars, I was
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: talking about this with Chris Frangiola, like it's interesting because
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: it's now every star, And I was going to say,
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: obviously there's something wrong with you to an extent, I say,
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 1: of people that want to be comedians or even want
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 1: to be actors or even get off on it. And
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: now we have this place of the internet and everything
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: where there's so many people that can be a star.
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: Back in the day, there was maybe 100 stars. Now
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 1: you can be a YouTuber and this and that and
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: make $ 16 million a year.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: And I don't know who you are.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: Right. And you can have a little cadre of stardom.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: Just a little group of fans makes people feel good.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: All you need is a small amount, you know? And
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: so then you get these stars like Britney and Madonna that.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: Oh, Madonna I think was weird. What was that?
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 1: When she went on her... Well, it's just... What was that?
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: But it's just interesting. Even I don't know what that was.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 1: She's got these butt implants and she's six years old
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: and she's got this severe plastic surgery and I'm just like...
• 1:13:19
  Speaker 1: And she's on... You know, Instagram just trying to get
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 1: like likes. And I'm just going, my God, you're Madonna. Like,
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 1: why are you trolling like the rest of us? Like,
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 1: why are you so thirsty like the rest of us? Like,
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 1: you're Madonna. And I get it because it's like anything else.
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: The immediate satisfaction of like putting something up. And I mean,
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 1: we're guilty of it, too. We post a clip. And
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 1: we're like, oh, my God, it's at this. It's at this. Oh,
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 1: why is this one not getting a lot of love?
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: That's interesting. You know, because it's the immediate of it.
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: But it's also what it was to me, Madonna, in
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: the first place. Right. What drove her to do that
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: is still driving her now.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 1: Exactly. That's what I'm saying. You still wanted it. And
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: now it's like.
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: That's sad.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: And I said, and it's like.
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 2: Hmm.
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 1: It's not like someone can really take the phone away
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: from this person. And who's going to do it? Her kids?
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 4: No.
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 1: The publicist or the assistant that she's paying?
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: But you know what's really sad?
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: They're just there to make her happy.
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: You know what's really sad is that somebody like that
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 2: could probably pivot into something really interesting. Yeah. If they
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 2: just used, really thought creatively.
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't know if you know this, but Madonna
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: has a podcast coming out. I'm just kidding. But probably.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: Probably. But I'm not sure. I'm just saying that she
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: has a huge following. She's had a huge impact. People
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: want to hear a lot of things from her.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: Don't keep doing the same thing. That was that. Let's
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: see what Madonna can do as a six-year-old.
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: I don't know. It just feels to me like that's
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 2: sad that they can't pivot.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, well, she's got this, like, 28-year-old boyfriend.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: She, you know, has the face of like, I don't know,
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: a 30 year old now with, you know, and she's, but.
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: She doesn't look like Madonna anymore.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: No, but it is just kind of like, I don't know,
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: there's something just kind of a bummer about it because
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: it's like you, you thought, you know, it'd more be like,
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: I'm fine. cool as shit and I would like to
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: just see her just like not be about like her
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: big fake ass and be collaborating with young artists and
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 1: be like it's your time to shine but I'm gonna
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: like come in here and sing this part or something
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 1: yes like why I mean.
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: Tony Bennett did it demented and I mean I.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 1: Kind of feel like that with Brittany with all she
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: does is put on these brown pumps and do these
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: fashion shows what's that brown.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 2: Pumps again you're obsessing about isn't that your obsession I'm.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: Just saying of all the she just doesn't and she
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 1: does the same thing and she puts it and she
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 1: does it over and over and over again And I'm like,
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 1: why aren't you like writing a song or singing a
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 1: song or doing something that's that? Why is it just
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: these cheap clothes off the shoulder outfits?
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 2: It's probably the immediacy of the feedback.
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 1: That's what I'm saying.
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: It's like the pigeons in the Skinner box. We keep going.
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 1: What's the pigeons?
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: What? There was a famous behavioral psychologist at Harvard in
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: the 50s named B.F. Skinner. And he had this thing
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: called the Skinner boxes with pigeons in it. And he
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 2: trained the pigeons to do things for reinforcements.
• 1:16:08
  Speaker 4: Oh.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so, oh.
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 4: So, okay.
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: I'm fascinating your crowd.
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 1: So the people, yeah.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: But here's the thing I want you to notice. Here's
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: what I'm going to predict with Brittany, is you're going
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: to start seeing more extreme makeup. That's your hint that
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: things are going. Watch. It's going to be crazy eye,
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 2: crazy lip.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: You think she's going to do the Julia Fox eye?
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: What is that?
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 1: She does like raccoon eyes.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: She doesn't wipe her makeup off. Oh, so you're going
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: to see more of that. That's the hint that things
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: are going south.
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 1: I feel like the look is just, yeah, like, Yeah,
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: I put on my makeup and I might not wash
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: my face before I go to bed. And then I
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 1: might add a little more on the next day.
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 2: That's fine. But you're going to start seeing.
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: Well, it's not fine. It's not good skin care.
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: You're going to start seeing.
• 1:16:48
  Speaker 1: I mean, you learn that at like 14. I must
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 1: have missed those classes. Mary Kay came to my house.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: And said every day that you sleep with your makeup on,
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: it ages your face by 14 days.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 1:17:03
  Speaker 2: I wonder if she got that science.
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 1: You've got to wash your face every night.
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: And reapply our makeup. It'll cost you $ 20.
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. Yes.
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: Uh-huh.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: But okay.
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 2: Well, anyway, so keep an eye on that. We'll see
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 2: how she does. God bless her. She's sort of, to me,
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 2: like a tragic figure. I feel bad for her.
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: Well, a couple more questions.
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: Another big word everyone talks about is gaslighting. You gaslit me,
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: you gaslit me. I know it comes from the movie.
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: What's the movie? Gaslighting. And that's where it comes from.
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: And it's just basically.
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: It's making you feel crazy. It's denying reality to the
• 1:17:44
  Speaker 2: point that you feel like you're doubting your sense of reality.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: That's really what it's supposed to be.
• 1:17:49
  Speaker 1: And are people really doing this this much? I mean,
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: it just seems like.
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: No, we're overusing the term. Okay. The term has become...
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 2: Gaslighting has become a ubiquitous term for, I don't like
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 2: what you're saying.
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 2: That's all it's become. It's become so thoroughly overused that
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 2: it no longer has its original intent at all.
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, even if a guy is cheating and the
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 1: wife or the girlfriend is like... thinks he's cheating and
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: is saying this and he's like, what are you crazy?
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 2: You're crazy.
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: I was playing basketball with the guys and took a
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: shower at the gym. You're crazy. That, okay, that, is
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 1: he really intending to really make her think she's crazy
• 1:18:32
  Speaker 1: or is he just lying?
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: He's lying.
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: He's just lying. He's not out to like make her
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: go to an insane asylum.
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 2: It's just a certain strategy of lying.
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: Right. And I feel like that's where it's getting a
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 1: little mushy there, like gray area.
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: I think some of the sort of, strategy of gaslighting
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: is that you keep going. You know, she goes, here's
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: pictures of you with this chick. That's Photoshop. I know
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: what you're talking about.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: Oh, okay.
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: They don't go, oh, you got me.
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: They never just admit it. Yeah. Okay.
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: And there's a lot of that these days. Trust me.
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: And what about the word triggered? When can we say
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: goodbye to that one?
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: I hope now. Let's put it to rest right now.
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: Can we?
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, I just feel like it's like everything, but
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 1: it's kind of a genius word because it's like, all
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: of a sudden you're like, oh my God, I never
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 1: realized that. Oh, oh my God, that's triggering me. That's true.
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 1: But I mean, now people just use it so much
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: and they use it in a way to like make
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 1: the person feel bad when actually it should make someone
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: feel okay. Like it should be like, I'm sorry. That
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 1: just like triggered a really horrible memory for me. And
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 1: you know, it's not, but that's why.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: I'm being weirded. Well, I'm sorry I did that, but
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: I want to challenge you. No, no, you can't challenge anybody.
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 2: I want to challenge what you're thinking. I want to
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: challenge your way of thinking about this.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 1: Oh, it's just, yeah, because that's like, you can't tell me.
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 2: You can't do anything. These things all put an end
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: to the conversation.
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 1: Oh, okay. That triggered me. That puts an end to it.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 1: So it's because it's not like, the other part is like,
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 1: Don't tell me how to feel. You can't deny. No
• 1:20:01
  Speaker 1: one can tell you how to feel. And these are
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 1: my feelings. And, you know, one thing I did learn
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 1: from the housewives.
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I can't wait.
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 1: Is they get very upset when someone says they're mad
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 1: at some woman for something that happened at her 50th
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 1: birthday party or whatever. And the person goes, listen. I'm
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 1: sorry if I made you feel less than that wasn't
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: my intention.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 1: And then they say, that's not what you should say.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 1: Because I'm sorry if you feel is like saying that
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: it's not a real apology.
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: Ah.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 1: So it should just be, I'm sorry I made you
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: feel less than.
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 1: I know you felt that way. I know that it
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 1: hurt you. I know that it ruined your night.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:20:47
  Speaker 1: But when I was doing it.
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: I was not aware I was hurting you and I
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 1: never set out to hurt you. Is that an okay apology?
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 2: Of course it is. But you know what you'd get back,
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 2: which is, well, you should know or you did know.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: You're a liar.
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 2: You're always doing this.
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 1: You see them.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: They go on and on and on.
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And that's ridiculous. But I mean I always think
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: that that's like now I'm actually like if I ever
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: say anything, I'm sorry. I'm always like, oh, I can't
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 1: say I'm sorry if you felt that way. You literally
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: cannot say I'm sorry if you felt that way.
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: People will lose their mind. Well, because it leaves you
• 1:21:17
  Speaker 2: a little out of the equation.
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: I guess that's it.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 2: You take your piece and own it and that's fine.
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: But believe me, that won't be enough. It won't be enough.
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 2: That's narcissism. That's borderline stuff. I just don't know.
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to wrap this up.
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 4: Oh.
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: Why?
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: It's some fun.
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: Well, maybe we do some on Patreon.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 1: Can we do some more on Patreon?
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: So come visit us there. Some of the more of
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 1: the riskier stuff. Okay.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: Go to heathermcdonald.net. You're on Patreon for the real juice.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 1: But Dr. Drew, thank you. Everyone follow Dr. Drew.
• 1:21:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Come see my– I'd love to have the Juicy
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: Scoopers over at drdrew.tv especially.
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: We do that streaming show. And After Dark, you may
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 2: or may not like. It's sort of a new incarnation
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: of Loveline.
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 1: Well, that's not a good self-pitch.
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 2: I don't want your people there to be offended because
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: it gets pretty dicey over there.
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: They like dicey stuff.
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 2: We got used to the stuff that Heather makes us
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: talk about on After Dark.
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 2: Susan and I.
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 1: Good, good. I love it. Thank you.
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 2: All right, thanks.
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 1: The car is beautiful. Where did you end up going
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 1: for it?
• 1:22:18
  Speaker 3: This exclusive place that Donna's connections with. they have more
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 3: cars for more dealerships than like anywhere else.
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 1: You have to put me in touch what's it called it's.
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 3: Dune adl where dune adl there's an accent on the
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: e do you mean yes i got it on done
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 3: deal cars lift please you're going past oh kimmage no
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 3: done deal cars you couldn't possibly go anywhere else