Latest / The Curve / RTC131: Paving your own way in business and beyond, with Michelle Battersby.

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RTC131: Paving your own way in business and beyond, with Michelle Battersby. · The Curve

0:00
Welcome to Raising the Curth, a podcast designed to teach you everything you need to know
0:05
to be better with your money.
0:07
And the wise words of Amy Shummer were slipping carrots into the brownie recipe.
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I don't really get the saying.
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It's kind of like eating vegetables that actually taste good, you know, it's still not
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waiting.
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Are you on the script?
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It's basically like saying, investing in finance can be boring but it totally doesn't
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need to be.
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OK, OK, so we're making it fun by putting the carrot.
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OK, the vegetables are just good for you.
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It's the brownie recipe.
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OK, we got there, we got there.
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OK, OK, well, you've really got a finance brain.
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Yeah, one of us has to.
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This is a joke.
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OK, come and learn alongside me from Vick Harris, ex-fun manager.
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Well, I'm going to ask all the questions that you wish you could.
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And I'm going to be eating all the brownie you wish you could.
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No, it's so not the joke, Vick.
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Oh, oh.
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OK, just come and talk and learn and laugh with us.
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Because together, we really can raise the curve.
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Today's guest is Michelle Badderspie, who I have had a long-term, long-term, long-distance
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minor crush on for a while, I would say.
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Not in like a sexual way, just in like a business way.
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She is one of the founders of a really amazing app called Sunroom, which was created
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to try and fill the void between Instagram and only fans, to try and re-brand the idea
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of risky content, the idea that anything should go.
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And this conversation kind of surprised me, because I don't know what I thought she would
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be like as a person, but the way she's approached motherhood and business is super inspiring
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and really cool.
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And we did so much research on the way we thought that this conversation would go, and
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it took a completely different road.
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But I think you'll really enjoy it, so we will get right to it.
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Gosh, I feel very excited.
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Do you know what's funny?
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Just before you get started, Michelle, into actual questions.
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I have been such an advocate for Sunroom from the beginning.
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When I saw it pop up, I'm pretty sure I've seen Vick like an extended voice note just
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being like, I think we've got to move out and tie up that phone to the Sunroom.
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I was like, dialing into your like, I can't remember what it was.
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It was like your summer content series or something.
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I was like, this is just genius.
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I feel like there's not been in a really long time a place that's put good content and
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the content creators for.
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So just congratulations for an amazing concept, execution.
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I think the whole thing is genius.
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Well, thank you.
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I really appreciate it.
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It's nice to hear that because I think you just get so stuck in the weeds.
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It's such a grind, having a start up.
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So it's nice to hear that people appreciate it.
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Oh, you're preaching to the converted in terms of start up life, running a million miles
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an hour and doing, wearing a whole lot of hats.
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Definitely something that we are very well versed in.
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It's so glorified.
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I don't know what it is or why it's like this cool thing.
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But I don't think I realized that it was so glorified until I was doing it because
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it was never something I dreamt of doing was a business.
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I was never like, I hate my job, fuck the boss.
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But then starting it, it's really interesting when you say you run your own company, people
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are like, well, and I'm like, oh, no, it's not that cool, honestly.
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Yeah.
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It's interesting because I think there's a niche of content exists on TikTok and I think
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it's quite what's the word I'm looking for.
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I'm going to really struggle to articulate myself with the baby brain, but it's literally
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just everywhere I think for Gen Z, where people shit on working for the man or not being
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your own boss and how you're like a slave to capitalism if you don't have your own company
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and you're not making money for yourself, but my whole career started in huge corporations
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and then working for other people's startups and there's so much security and stability
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in working for someone else.
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And I think when you really believe in the product or the mission, it doesn't feel like
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you're working for the man or you're building someone else's dreams or if you have an
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amazing boss who really cares about you and your career development and supports you,
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it doesn't feel like you're living to work, you know, it feels like you're doing something
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that you're really passionate about.
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So I actually, I honestly think it's a win-win if you can work for someone else on a product
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that you love.
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I totally agree.
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Kind of put that above having your own business to be honest.
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I feel like everything you just said, like spoke to so many of the things that I'm really
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excited to speak to you about and I don't want to get like two word vomiting and just
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like go onto all of it at once, but you're a new mum, which is amazing.
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13 weeks through from birth.
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Is that also the weirdest way to say it through from birth?
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You can clearly tell if I'm not out of baby.
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Is it true from birth to what?
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Shosh.
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Shosh, we just continue.
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We continue.
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From the genre to today.
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It's what it sounded like.
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Jesus.
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But I think like, you know, you did work in more corporate roles and for other people.
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Can we just backtrack to that first?
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Am I right in thinking from our extensive research that you worked in human resources and
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also banking and being bumble before you started your own thing?
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Yeah.
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I followed like just your standard career path, I would say.
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You know, like you go to school, you pick a degree, you go to uni, you try and get a
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corporate job.
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I studied a masters of human resource management and industrial relations, got on an internship
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program.
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What about this even as that?
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Industrial relations.
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I know human resources, but industrial relations.
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Yeah, I know.
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Is it business comms or like building comms?
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No, it's more like learning about how unions work and like employment, a bit of employment
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law and things like that.
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Did that interest you at a young age?
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No, so I had no idea what I wanted to do.
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Like I got into a Bachelor of Arts and then I had no idea what to do after that.
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My dad suggested that I do HR because he was like, you work with people, your social,
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HR, professionals are paid quite well, so he was like, you should look into this.
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It's so funny how parents like dictate.
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I remember being like, when I was younger, I was like, I like the colour purple and the
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my parents were like, right, we'll do purple walls all through your bedroom, you know?
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And that lasted like a week.
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It's kind of like, and then I was like, I don't like purple anymore.
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You know, it's like they take everything like literally.
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I feel like there could be a revamp in like the, you know, career counsellor space.
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Like how did you not have any help and or awareness, you know, like even just
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if we look at tech where you are now and how probably the top five tech billionaires in
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the world are all men.
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It's like I feel as though the education piece of what is available, not only from studying
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and career but also like then going into the workplace needs to really be shaken up
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because I was the same.
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My parents did not give me stunning advice.
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Yeah, I think even with a tech, you would think you need to be an engineer to work in tech.
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So for me, that's not something I ever even considered when I was younger because I wasn't
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very academic.
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I wouldn't describe myself as being that smart.
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I was never going to study software engineering.
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So I just put tech in a bucket where it's like, this will never be open, you know, I need
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to focus on things that come a little bit more natural to me.
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And I wonder sometimes if that's one of the reasons why there aren't more women in STEM.
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Like not to say that women should solely be doing, you know, marketing or comms for these
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tech companies, but you can be working in tech and that could maybe be your foot in the
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door and then you could go into product design or you could go into engineering or you could
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be a project manager.
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Like there are all these different ways at like different parts you could take to get
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into tech that aren't just what I think comes to mind, which is kind of how I got into
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the tech space initially.
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And I also think it's like a university doesn't dictate what you do for the rest of your
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life.
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You know, there's a lot of people or what you do out, you know, your education post school
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does not dictate what you do for the rest of your life.
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It's like, I feel like it was end up where you're supposed to end up.
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I feel like everyone puts so much pressure on what degree to do.
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And you're usually like 17, 18 and you have no idea it's almost just like a means to
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an end.
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Do you know what I mean?
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Yeah, for sure.
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I feel like every going to uni is great because it can just open the first door for you.
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You know what I mean?
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Like a lot of those huge corporates are looking at what you studies, what, how many degrees
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you have, what uni you went to.
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So I think it's good to start your career off.
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And then I think you get a little bit older and you can eliminate the, maybe it's like
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eliminate the things that you don't like and keep going until you find something.
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And so did you then work in the finance industry and like how did you end up there?
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What were you doing?
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Did it open your eyes to business, money, investing, personal finance?
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Like how did you end up there and what kind of spilled out of it as learning or like
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trajectory for that career to go from thing to thing to eventually where you are now?
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I did this thing called the industry placement program at Sydney, uni, which was this really
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interesting, almost like bridging course type thing that they ran.
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You went through a series of interviews.
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It's like getting a graduate job, but they match you with a company based on your personality
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and where they think you would actually do well.
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So you don't actually know where you will be being placed or what kind of company you
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might be working at.
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And on the other side, I got matched with Citibank.
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So I ended up doing this internship at Citibank and I loved it.
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Like I remember, I would wear all the corporate outfits.
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I was like walking through the glass revolving doors to park straight in the city, thought
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I was fucking killing it.
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Oh, honestly, it was, I felt like I'd landed this amazing job.
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And I do think it was a blessing working for such a big financial institutions straight
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off the bat because you learn how to follow process and policy and it is quite rigid.
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You do have to follow a lot of red tape, but I just got so much amazing exposure working
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with really smart people.
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I was an HR generalist, so I would help departments manage, like hiring, firing, bonuses, performance
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reviews, being a generalist is a bit of everything.
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So you were firing people at like straight out of uni, that's incredibly awesome.
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Yeah, it was actually the first person I ever met.
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Made redundant, they had worked at, I mean, I probably shouldn't blow the lid on where
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I was working, but I already have, but they actually worked at Citibank for longer than
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I had been alive.
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Yeah, it was interesting because I was so young, but the thing with being an HR generalist,
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it's much easier letting people go when you work in HR rather than letting someone go
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that you actually hired and you manage, you know, like an HR, an HR person is very disconnected.
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They're not friends with that person, they don't work with that person every single day.
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It's very factual.
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I mean, obviously I think if it didn't affect you, there would be something wrong with you,
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but you're able to really like paint a picture as to why this is happening as a business
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need.
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It's not personal.
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Did you, when you worked at Citibank, did you pick up anything like throsmosis in terms
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of investing, personal finance, did it change your view on investing or will you pretty
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financially litter it at that point already?
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Because I was working in HR, it's not like I was really working on those sorts of things,
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you know, I just worked for a financial institution, but I worked on people problems, not on finance
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problems.
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So I don't feel like I necessarily gained skills in that area, but what came to help me
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when I ended up working at Bumble was I was very aware of what not to do in a business
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and how not to treat people.
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You know, I would work on bullying and harassment cases or misuse of company card or sometimes
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if HR doesn't manage things correctly, that employee might try to take the company to court
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and things like that.
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So you really have to be careful with what you're saying and make sure you're running
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a process in, you know, with the right sort of due diligence and yeah, so I could take
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those skills and once I was then like out on my own, managing your team or building
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my own business, I am just aware of what sort of things to not say to people.
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I want to take a side step to Bumble, but also with regards to motherhood, particularly
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you've just spoken about like being in a corporate and I think a lot of people are quite scared
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to have like babies who are materially regardless of where you are, particularly if you're in
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a job where you're sort of made to feel super replaceable, but secondly, like what a corporate
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offers in terms of security and maternity leave and all of those things is a lot generally
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can be a lot more supported than a startup.
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For you, how did the decision to be a mum come about?
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Was it something that you delayed because you now work for yourself?
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I'm just sort of keen to hear your journey into motherhood because I imagine when you
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run your own business, that is a much trickier decision to make.
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I think there are pros and cons like either side to be honest, like if you are working for
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a bigger company, you're definitely going to have better benefits and more security and
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you'll also be protected by more laws than if you are working at a small company or if
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you're working at a startup or if you run your own business like me, but on the flip side,
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if you run your own business like I'm not going to replace myself, you know what I mean?
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Like I am a bit more irreplaceable, so I don't have to deal with potentially the fear
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of what will it be like when I step back into my role or who's going to come in and what
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might I lose, which I know is a reality for many people who are working in bigger companies
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that feeling like it might be hard for them to transition back into the workplace and
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that is something that I know a lot of companies focus on because sometimes many parents don't
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come back and that's a big focus. I know that was a big focus for the banks when I was working
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there, but I think because I'd seen so much behind the scenes, I had definitely internalized
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a lot of fear around becoming a mum. You know, I had heard things throughout my career
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like, oh, she's too emotional, she should go on parental leave sooner. You know, I worked
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somewhere where they wanted to take someone's promotion back after they found out that they
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were pregnant. Wow. And it's little things like that kind of over and over that I think
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many women would have experienced throughout their careers, you know, like maybe you've seen it,
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maybe you've heard it, maybe it's happened to you. And so that starts to make you feel like it
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would be a bad idea to have a baby and that it would jeopardize your career or potentially hold
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you back. I've definitely noticed that as well in terms of like you're almost out of sight,
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out of mind, you know, if you're a maternity leave, it's like if you're not there being part of
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projects or being part of discussions, it's like you're not proving yourself. So therefore you're
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not put forward for promotions and all of that, it's like, and also I've been in situations where
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you know, mothers have had to leave to pick up their kids at three o'clock or whatever and
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the company's all like, oh yes, we're family first, we're supportive, but then you know,
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it's the under the breath comments once they leave the room. And like little things like that,
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I totally see where you're coming from. It's like it definitely creates fear. Yeah, it was,
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it was all of those sorts of things that made me like I was taking a very, I was making a very
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conscious decision to delay starting a family. So I had fallen pregnant twice with my current
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partner, I'd had two abortions because I just thought, you know, this will not be a good idea for
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me. Can I ask if you, if you feel comfortable, where were you in your career, both of those times,
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were you working for yourself or were you in a company? I was working for startups both of those
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times. And did you have this feeling of like, no, not really, it wasn't just wasn't really an option.
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If you're working for yourself, it could have been like maybe a different story. I think it was
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more to do with my age, to be honest. I think I was younger and so I felt like I had more time at
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my sleeve. So I was 27 and 28 when that happened. And because I felt like I had more time and I didn't
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feel the pressure of the biological clock, which it sucks, but you can't deny that that pressure
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exists for women because I wasn't feeling that pressure yet. I didn't really stop and challenge
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why it was an immediate no for me. Like why? I barely, I barely thought about it. It was just like
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no way. Like this can't happen right now. Was there any financial input in that in terms of the
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decision-making process of I haven't saved enough, I'm not earning enough, I can't, you know, support
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a child? Was there any financial decision-making in that? No, not at all. And honestly, like I was more
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financially stable back then than I am now. Like I run a tech startup, it's venture backed, I pay
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myself a founder salary. Like I was making, you know, double what I make, what I pay myself right
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now. So if I was to assess like on my life's path, you know, when would have been a better time
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financially for me to have a baby. Like now is not the moment, but I have other things that like
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make it easier. I think it's interesting like so many people talk about the financial elements of
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having a baby, but I kind of think it's like finances throughout life. Like you you always kind of
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find a way. Like it's never going to feel like an amazing time to just watch that money flow
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out of your bank account or like to realize how much you have to spend on nappies and like all like
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how quickly they grow out of clothes. Like it's like if you want to go on a trip to Europe, like
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that badly, you'll find out a way to do that. I think the financial side of things like comes into
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the baby conversation so much and it sometimes makes me feel like like not just people with money
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should be able to have babies. You know what I mean? Like there are people having babies every single
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day that are not in favourable financial situations, but they make it work and they have a loving home.
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So I just I'm always a little bit conflicted on like the financial side because I just don't think
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people should be made to feel like if they really want to have a child, they can't because they
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don't earn a shitload of money or something. I mean I had a baby in America and I think people
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would feel like oh that would cost a fortune, but it actually costs three grand. Is that the
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gynecester like 13 weeks or like what are we talking with that budget? Just my medical expenses
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throughout the whole thing. That's not a lot at all. I think people are really scared of the American
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healthcare system, but if you have insurance which most people's employers pay for, that's why
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like getting having a job in America is so important and why people care so much about the benefits
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that employers offer. But if you have healthcare it's basically free and it's covered by your
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insurance. But why did you when you say you consciously decided to move having a family back?
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Obviously deciding to terminate those two times like there's that but was there also a comp
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like an active conversation between you and your partner that was I'm focusing on career
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kids are not happening for you know because for me at the moment a lot of my friends are on
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their second baby. I'm like surrounded by friends that are in that stage of life because you're
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right you totally can't deny the biological clock but how did you push that pressure aside and
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was it yeah was there like a time limit you gave yourself I'm kind of keen to hear more about that.
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Yeah after my second abortion because I was making such a conscious decision to not have
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children in that moment I wanted to be really educated around my delays because I don't know if I
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would have been able to forgive myself if I had chosen to delay for so long that I then couldn't
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have kids. So I knew I always wanted to have kids but I just didn't feel like the timing was right.
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So from the moment I had the second abortion I got my eggs counted every single year. So when I was
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in Australia I was just getting the AMH blood tests that just give you a reading on your fertility
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hormones but once I moved to the US I started getting more thorough checks where I actually got
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the follicles on each ovary counted and I would get vaginal ultrasounds just to make sure everything
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was fine and I would highly recommend that to any woman who is choosing to delay for their career
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or for other reasons just because it really does help to remove the pressure of the clock
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like every year knowing oh hey you know like I had a above average egg count I was like perfect
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you know I don't need to rush into that or if I had been informed each year that perhaps they'd
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been a significant drop from the year before then maybe I would have looked into a freezing.
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So you didn't go down the egg freezing part that was my next question was you obviously
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weren't stressed by what you were hearing each year and so it was kind of like a case-by-case
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decision to not focus on that year. Exactly yeah I just would go religiously every year and I would
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just get a read on where I was at obviously that doesn't uh well the thing is because I'd already
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fallen pregnant I also already knew my body could do that like I obviously it's a hard thing to
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go through the decision to terminate but on the positive side I knew that my partner and I could
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conceive so I think that's the other thing like you might get a good read on your account but you
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might not actually be able to conceive like there are other things you need to consider and each
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person needs to figure that out for themselves. My partner and I weren't trying for a baby when I
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got pregnant and actually had my son I'm just one of those people where if I don't take my pill
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at the same time every single day I just I think I'm quite fertile but when I felt pregnant more
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recently being 32 I was older and I just thought okay it's time for me to actually dig into why I
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have felt like I can't do this and I ended up going on this like journey which sounds a bit lame
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but I ended up just really doing some work like I did a lot of writing I really went back to the
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start of my career like I revisited all those things I'd heard along the way I challenged why I felt
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like I couldn't do this you know I one of the big things for me was I have a ton of investors
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like my my companies raised seven million dollars I wondered if my investors would be thinking
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why'd we pick her you know like now she's gonna go off and have a baby like would they doubt my
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commitment would I be letting my team down would my companies growth slow down if I needed to take
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some time off and I kind of had this list of all the things I was worried about and I just work
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through them like if someone if one of my investors is shitty that I got pregnant they never
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should have been someone investing in my company like it's all about women it's women led it's
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about making women money so I could kind of cross off all these things that I was worried about and
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realize like this might not actually be my reality it's so interesting that like back when you first
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felt pregnant it was like all these concerns and then even now now that you're 32 and at the
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complete different position there's still all these concerns well you may manage to cross them off
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but like it just goes to show also like there's I don't know there's no ideal situation there's
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always these feelings that I think women all have of like what will people think what will I bear
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yeah it's just it's so fascinating even though you've kind of created this own environment for
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yourself and a position to feel comfortable having children now there's still those things in the
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back of back of our head of probably every woman I'm interested to know did you take maternity leave
24:43
at sunroom I like did you pay yourself during that time like what was the setup financially I
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think this is also the hard thing is like what made it scary for me is you also don't know how
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it's going to be once your baby arrives like that's actually the scariest part yeah I found it
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and I think a lot of women find it pretty easy to work whilst they're pregnant obviously that
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depends on what sort of pregnancy that you have which is also unpredictable so that can be scary
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until you're in it but then I think when it comes down to your baby arriving it was like oh you
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know am I going to have a baby that sleeps I'm like going to have a collicky baby um am I going to
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lose myself you know all these people were saying things to me like you won't want to work once
25:26
you have a baby you won't care about your career when you have a baby so there's these lingering
25:30
things in the back of your mind like oh once this baby pops out of me is this switch going to flick
25:34
and I'm no longer going to care about this part of myself and that wasn't my experience at all
25:41
like when I had Alfie is my little boy's name such a cute name thanks when I had Alfie I actually
25:49
felt like oh it is so important for me to maintain this side of myself like I need to have multiple
25:58
things going on at once I can't just be all in on being being a mom I don't think that would be
26:05
I don't think that would help me be the best version of myself I think I need to maintain
26:10
other passions and that is something I needed to figure out first before I really committed to
26:17
how much time I was going to take off and what my return to work was going to be like so I from
26:22
the start had said I just wanted to be left alone for four weeks as I felt like four weeks would
26:27
give me enough of an opportunity to figure out you know if I did want to come back to work if I was
26:32
okay physically if I was okay mentally like I ended up having an unplanned C section so that was a
26:37
bit of a spanner in the works with your recovery and things like that but yeah I took four weeks off
26:44
which I think initially I was like judging myself for taking four weeks off I was looking at it like
26:51
oh you're only taking four weeks off like you're returning to work so fast and then I challenged
26:57
myself on why do I think four weeks is so short like what's led me to believe there is a
27:03
necessary period of time that I should stay disconnected from what I'm doing you know like in the
27:10
US they don't even have amazing parental leave policies I think it's three months that most people
27:16
get which isn't a lot at all but that's like doesn't seem like a lot because I come from Australia
27:21
where a lot of people get a year so I think you can challenge yourself around like
27:26
what's normal and what might work for you and try to relieve yourself of any guilt or any
27:32
judgment but I started working again after four weeks I went back just one day a week and I remember
27:38
at the three week mark thinking oh god like I want to go back to work but how am I going to manage
27:43
one day a week and then by the time that rolled around it was easier for me to do and then my goal
27:49
was okay I should do three weeks working one day a week and then I'll go up to two days a week
27:54
and just before going up to two days a week I was thinking fuck there's no way I'm going to be
27:57
able to manage this like how am I going to do this and then by the time two days would roll around
28:03
I could manage two days and like right now I'm working three days a week and next week I'm
28:07
meant to be starting to work four days a week and last week I thought fuck no there's no way I'm
28:11
going to be able to do four days a week but now I'm feeling like oh you know like I think I could
28:16
do four days a week so I think that there's definitely it is a privilege having my own company and
28:21
being able to make the rules like that and being able to give myself that flexibility but
28:26
I think if anyone can like I would definitely recommend a staged approach to returning to work
28:32
it just made it so much easier for me to digest and when I look at my time off you know like it was
28:37
four weeks but then I was only working one day a week for three for three weeks like so it's not
28:42
like I was going straight back into it and I didn't have a nanny at first but I had my mum here
28:47
and so she would help me when I was working my partner was living in another state like I've
28:52
I've had a pretty like challenging start to motherhood yeah my partner lived in another state
28:59
in the US from when I was 23 weeks pregnant so I got through the end of my pregnancy by myself
29:05
he came back for two weeks when I gave birth then he went away like I did all of our fees initial
29:11
I think that's it as well like it's such a personal thing like I did so much of this by myself
29:17
I did every settle every now you change every swaddle you know I've done every single night
29:23
of my I didn't know what a swaddle I was just like wrapping them up tightly yeah
29:29
like I've done all of this by by myself so I feel like I've just bonded with my son so much like
29:38
it was really just human eye my partner moved back to LA last week it's been human eye
29:43
fully truly the first 12 weeks of his life so sorry can I ask what does he do for work and also
29:50
you're amazing holy shit like I'm in or like I'm sorry woman but you in particular
29:57
absolutely incredible like yeah wow what what does he do for work and what was the circumstance
30:02
you also don't have to share if that's like yeah he's a professional rugby player and so he's
30:07
just been playing for the team in Chicago and because this wasn't a planned pregnancy like if this
30:14
was planned we would have planned it when he was in his office but because it just happened it
30:21
was something that I just knew we would have to navigate so I honestly did a lot of therapy
30:27
when I was pregnant and I just got into this mindset of like I didn't feel sorry for myself
30:33
everyone has their own challenges when it comes to becoming a mom you know it's not that big a
30:40
period of my life like it was seven months but I never looked at it like it was seven months I really
30:45
broke it down like make it to the third trimester make it to my birthday make it to my last
30:50
audition appointment like make it through the birth make it to my mum arise make it to my sister
30:55
rights like and just try to yeah like get through it in increments which really really helped but I
31:02
think I think because of that circumstance me going to work one day a week was like such a break
31:08
because it was like being a breastfeeding mum and just alone every night like my my family did
31:15
come over and they did help me but they obviously like weren't you know waking up in the night with
31:20
me and like doing your speeds um so I just felt like I had give I gave so so much and like continue
31:28
to give so much so I just don't really I can like shut down any guilt around returning to work and
31:36
I just feel like it's really important and working one day a week two days a week three days a week
31:40
is actually a huge break for me it sounds like you really foster this like you can do what you need
31:49
to do in a time of need kind of like mentality of adapting I don't know it's really it's really
31:54
interesting and I'm just going back on your history and your career in terms of being a bumble
32:00
and the whole preface of that is like female empowerment and any of that play into kind of personal
32:07
growth for you in terms of how you view yourself in terms of what you can achieve are you run your
32:14
company because it sounds like you really buck the trend what's the word I'm looking for
32:19
work it's like you really are like going against the grain in lots of ways in the best way and I
32:25
think it's like very hard when there's been generations of narratives around how women should work
32:32
how they should mother how they earn money how they show up I don't know I think that's such a
32:37
good question but I love that yeah I actually do spend quite a lot of time like challenging
32:45
my own beliefs like I have a career coach I have a therapist like I really try to assess where any
32:54
judgment stems from or where if I might feel like I should or shouldn't do something a certain
32:59
way I spend quite a lot of time thinking about that and figuring out why that may or may not be
33:06
and with wanting to you know start a family and run a company at the same time I like wrote a
33:13
lot of articles on this like the career or baby debate and I have a real real issue with women
33:19
feeling like it has to be one or the other like I fundamentally don't believe that that is the case
33:26
but I do I am aware of the fact that for it not to be the case you need to be working in a supportive
33:34
environment and with people that understand that because the reality is there are in a lot of
33:40
workplaces that still do discriminate or judge you know pregnant or even parent just generally
33:48
employees so I think it's like you know there are many people that have been treated unfairly for
33:54
you know going off and having a baby but there are many people that also work for organizations
33:59
like Spotify for example where like they pay for their employees and freezing or there are other
34:03
companies out there that offer fathers you know the exact same amount of paid leave as mothers and
34:09
that sort of thing is really important what do you feel about firms paying for egg freezing oh my
34:14
god I was about to say that it's so fascinating I don't know how I feel and I'm still trying to
34:21
figure out my decision on this because I for me I think it depends on the companies intentions
34:27
which is so hard to tell I think if a company is paying for egg freezing then they should put
34:35
the same amount of funds into paying for childcare like that seems fair to me if you're paying for
34:41
egg freezing are you wanting your employees to delay and like keep working for you like you know
34:48
like what's the intent behind it oh I see because if you're just trying to be supportive either way
34:54
then you should pay you should be supportive for women who decide to have a baby not just the ones
35:00
that don't oh I see that's cool I love that yeah like I currently I I just recently got a nanny and
35:11
I'm working three days a week at the moment so she comes the three days that I work for four hours
35:17
on those days so I basically work intensely intensely for 12 hours a week at the moment
35:23
and then once she leaves I just like try to do what I can but some room pays for my nanny for those
35:30
hours like I wouldn't be able to afford a nanny on the founder salary that I'm on now but it's like
35:36
I need to be back at work for my company so it makes sense that my company pays for my childcare
35:42
and I have a small tech startup you know and we can afford to do that so I just can't comprehend
35:49
how bigger companies which would be every other company in existence like can't put some money
35:57
into that sort of thing that's such a great way to look at it yeah yeah like the big companies do do
36:02
that like they have gracious like so many of these big companies in the US have gracious on
36:08
on their campuses you know and they subsidize childcare and I think that's really really important
36:14
and I think there are you know like where I don't know how old you guys are I'm 33 now and I just
36:19
feel like I feel like we're a generation that has been given a lot of opportunity and like things
36:25
have really started to shift for us in terms of equality and having a vote having a seat at the
36:31
table and being able to advocate for ourselves and so I think women's needs around this sort of
36:37
thing are only gonna keep advancing and companies need to be evolving and adapting to suit those
36:43
needs otherwise they're just not going to be able to attract really like talented women so on
36:49
that then Michelle like you alluded to being on not the most you know blowing your socks off
36:56
salary by the way what is with my bizarre chat today like the weirdest acronyms and like sayings um
37:04
how did you decide what to pay yourself because we're in a similar situation where you know it's
37:12
you really are your biggest asset to sunroom and therefore you should be renumerated for that but
37:17
there's this extreme guilt around you know wanting to put that money back in the company I'm keen
37:21
to hear how you came to the decision that money can go towards childcare and then also how much
37:27
you can pay yourself because in my mind they're kind of two of the same you should be paying yourself
37:31
what you deserve and what you um valued at as well as the nanny you know I don't think it should
37:37
be one of the other agreed like it is just really hard when you have a company to decide how much
37:42
to pay yourself and I think there can be a lot of guilt around giving yourself that salary and
37:47
with you know I have a company that raised capital and you don't raise capital to give it to
37:52
yourself you raise capital to hire people that are smarter than you and to be able to you know
37:59
put money into marketing and acquisition and your servers or whatever so it can feel like
38:06
you aren't the wisest choice so the way Lucy and my co-founder and I decided what to pay
38:12
ourselves I was actually or derived from a tweet that one of how in there are they still called
38:18
tweets now it's excellent I don't even know but um one of our investors is the founder of
38:25
another tech startup that was really successful and he basically mapped out what he paid himself
38:30
and how he chosen to pay himself each year based on growth so we started because we'd raised
38:35
capital we could afford to pay ourselves from the start so and that's a massive privilege but we
38:41
paid ourselves 55 thousand dollars each and then it's gradually just grown from like 55 to 75
38:49
to a hundred both of us are now on 125 is that you is yeah yeah it's not a lot actually
38:56
like as in I know a lot of people will be listening and be like wow that's amazing but from what
39:00
I've heard it sounds like America is expensive yeah yeah yeah like rent is out of control I think it's
39:09
been good though because we kind of learnt how hard it is to survive in LA on each one of those
39:17
salaries and where the lowest paid people in our company because it honestly is really hard to
39:25
survive here like you can't save money it's amazing that you're the lowest paid in your company by
39:30
the way like I mean I don't know if I should be encouraging that no I you you should you actually
39:35
should like as the founder you have so much more to gain like where you know the biggest shareholders
39:43
at our company that the upside is biggest for us you have to take a financial risk and I would
39:50
want to work for a founder that's hungrier not some founder that's like paying themselves
39:55
three hundred thousand dollars a year or something like that it's just like you you have to kind of
40:01
grind and it is a bit of a sacrifice that you need to make and I really feel like if your founders
40:08
not really willing to tell you what they're paying themselves and they're probably paying themselves
40:12
too much and they know that I think there's also a balance though in terms of like grinding it out
40:17
and sacrificing in the early days but not getting resentful because I think you could easily get to
40:23
a point where it's like screw this why am I doing this say this has been going on for years now
40:30
and you know and you almost don't want to be a part of the company anymore and I think there's
40:35
a fine balance with that which is a tricky one and totally yeah it's there's no right or wrong
40:41
totally time or amount that you should be paying yourself but like yeah it's definitely a tricky one
40:47
definitely I think it depends like where your products are if it's growing if you've got product
40:52
market fit like if you put money into the business or not like Lucy and I didn't put money into
40:57
the business we we have investors so it'll be very different if you bootstrapped the company like
41:03
lots of different things to consider and honestly like some of our pay rises did come off the back
41:08
of conversations between the two of us where it's like I'm actually really struggling like this
41:13
is causing me financial stress can we like revisit our salaries I feel like we're in a bit of a
41:20
tricky situation so of course we're like a female empowerment platform and we always talk about
41:25
like valuing yourself appropriately and all of this and then we're like don't get financially
41:31
stressed and it's so hard to practice what you preach sometimes when you are on a founder's
41:36
salary and a startup salary yeah it's like we've kind of shot ourselves in the foot really even
41:41
like the people you employ because you're like they're asking for pay rise using your amazing tips
41:46
that have issued on your podcast social media you're like fuck we're totally gonna water
41:50
yeah but if you can't say no or like you it's just like yeah there's a really fine line as well
41:55
because obviously one of attract great talent and let's just further can we go back to I guess
41:59
what what spurred you on to start sunroom what inspired you you know how did you envision it kind
42:07
of standing out from other social media platforms how did you want to be different like
42:11
just that whole thought process and also adding to that was it shit I was about to say shit
42:18
nervous wow what is happening to start not only a company in your late 20s when all of your friends
42:29
are heading towards kids marriage buying houses etc and particularly in the tech space because
42:36
it's brutal and there's not very many successful female tech founders yeah I think it's interesting
42:43
your point around like starting a company when your friends might be heading towards more making
42:49
more stable choices in life and I think it comes down to what you value like right now in my life
42:56
I don't value getting married or buying house I've never really valued hitting traditional milestones
43:02
I don't I don't care about those two things because those two things aren't really going anywhere
43:08
like I will buy a house at some point in my life and I will get married at some point in my life
43:13
you know but the opportunity to start a tech company if you've got an idea and it feels like
43:19
the timing is right that actually is going somewhere so I I never have really cared about those
43:26
other things you know I'm engaged I've been engaged for like three years I've never thought
43:30
about when my wedding might be I need to take some tips out of your book I'm like don't worry
43:35
about it don't worry about marriage don't worry about babies and then I'm like my bloody biological
43:39
cock is ticking it's like this so yeah anyway yeah but that that's one thing where it's like that
43:45
can sometimes feel like it is going somewhere like that is a reality so that's why I think if it's
43:51
something that you care about and it's something that you value then like get your eggs counted
43:57
because then you can have a bit more of a clearer picture on if it actually is going somewhere
44:01
for you or not like there are many women giving birth at 40 so I think it's just about yeah like
44:06
working out what you care about and for you if you feel like it's going somewhere or not like I don't
44:12
I really don't care about like a wedding or a house there's just two things I personally don't care
44:17
about but I do really care about I like like taking risks I like experiencing things that feel
44:26
a bit once in a lifetime me like I really like to take chances and when I'd worked at Bumble
44:34
I was like given this insight into this amazing world of how it can feel to work for like a fast
44:41
growth tech startup yeah just like the the people that you meet the things that you can do I became
44:47
like addicted to working on things that felt big like I've never really been interested in in
44:53
products I've been interested in things that have like bigger growth potential that like anyone could
44:59
kind of use around the world and so when I met my co-founder it was in 2020 and only fans was blowing
45:07
up like it was in the pandemic all these women in particular were making a shitload of money on
45:11
only fans and Lucy and I thought that was really fascinating and we just started digging into it and
45:16
started interviewing only fans creators as well as creators who weren't on only fans and
45:23
that's when like the penny dropped because we were hearing about all the the negatives of only
45:29
fans like the fact that there's a stigma associated with it the fact that creators were losing out
45:33
on brand deals the fact that people's content was being stolen and we were also hearing from all
45:38
these people on Instagram and TikTok that they were kind of envious of what was happening on
45:42
only fans like they wanted to be able to monetize their content in that way as well but they
45:47
didn't feel like only fans aligned with their personal brand and so it just felt like there was
45:51
this potential to create something that functionally worked pretty similar but that's kind of where
45:59
the similarities end like it was for women to make money a bit more of like a mission and a
46:05
purpose behind it it's an app that exists on the app store it has anti-screen shot technology
46:09
just something that could like fill the void and differentiate itself in a way that
46:15
meant the same concerns people were feeling on only fans didn't exist on some room
46:20
and so what was the firstly epic is secondly did the investors that you spoke to initially because
46:27
I think starting something with an idea opposed to like I don't know having a minimum viable
46:33
product in VP or you know being revenue generating or was it difficult to convince what I assume
46:40
was a lot of men to give you money to build this how much money did you need initially and
46:47
because it makes so much sense like it's such an obvious brilliant idea and the reason that it
46:52
probably wasn't pursued is because A probably non thought of it but B like I think and particularly
46:58
for us we found that like when you're pitching for investment guys often don't understand how big
47:03
the opportunity is if it's not affecting men and so I yeah just like I'd love to know what that
47:09
process of like getting money was how much you needed and how that went for you. I guess this
47:14
kind of comes back to what I was saying about like if you feel like something is going somewhere
47:19
or not like is this an opportunity that could just pass you by or is this something that you could
47:23
revisit and the thing with starting a company and particularly raising capital like where the
47:29
market is at is exceptionally important and 2020 I think it was a record year for venture capital
47:37
like it was the most amount of money ever invested in two startups and companies were getting these
47:42
insane valuations and it candidly was very easy to raise money. We should have done it then so
47:47
damn it. Yeah we should have done it. 2020 fall was not the year. You know 2023 definitely not
47:55
but it really especially riding a wave of only fans like everyone was seeing these stories you know
48:01
like Bella Thorne comes out and makes like $1.2 million in a day like everyone was thinking what is
48:07
this only fan space like what will be the next thing and so to come out with something that was
48:13
like a feminine take on only fans was very very appealing to people it was kind of like when Uber blew
48:20
up and everyone would describe their company is like it's the Uber of X you know yeah okay and so
48:27
it definitely is much harder to raise money without a product without revenue and so I think if
48:33
you're going to attempt to do that you need to have other things going for you so like with with
48:40
us there were actually three of us at the start like three co-founders myself being a marketer
48:45
Lucy being design and then we had another co-founder who was engineering so Lucy very yeah very
48:53
cleverly had like created this team of people who had these track records and so when you're
49:01
raising capital without a product people are really betting on your team and there was quite a
49:06
compelling story there with the team but we also raised money based off kind of a wait list
49:12
so you can also raise capital if you have a wait list because it just shows that you've created
49:16
something which people are actually going to use and I had recruited a hundred founding creators
49:23
so we created this pitch deck like I recruited all these creators and we hadn't even built the app
49:28
which I don't know about recommend amazing the fact that you have the the confidence and the
49:36
the foresight into doing that is just like insane yeah I mean I guess the thing is like probably what
49:42
this whole conversation has brought up for me and definitely I hope is planted some little seeds
49:49
and other people's minds is the idea that you know we don't have to have kids at the same time
49:54
as everyone else we don't have to do a job that we don't like we don't have to lead a company the
50:00
same way that men do like there's so many things that we can do differently if we give ourselves
50:04
the space to think about it and come up with solutions and I think that that's why conversations
50:10
like this is so important because I hadn't even thought of the idea of oh if companies are paying
50:14
the egg freezing they should also pay for childcare like we're a really entire idea I think that there's
50:19
yeah it's important to open up the space for many people to share thoughts and ideas and
50:26
just hearing the way that you built some room and have approached being a mom and also not
50:31
leading that affect your your career or your company is like very very inspiring I'd love to
50:37
wrap it up by just asking do you have any personal professional actually I know you definitely will
50:43
what are some of your personal and professional goals over the next five years like some room
50:49
in terms of where you want that to be do you have you made yourself personal ones or are you
50:53
focusing solely on the business right now I'd love to hear how you're looking at things now you
50:59
have also had a kid it's interesting because like I've never really been that person with a five-year
51:04
plan or anything like that and maybe that comes from the fact that I do tend to take risks and I
51:12
kind of go wherever I think you know opportunities will take me I'm very committed to sunroom at the
51:18
moment and I'm really proud of where we've been able to get it to as a team ultimately like I would
51:24
love to sell sunroom down down the track like I think a dream would be to sell sunroom to like a
51:31
snapshot or a patreon and then I'd love to go and work for those companies like if we would
51:37
a sell a company like sunroom our team would probably go and work for whatever company bought it
51:43
and I'd love to go back into a bigger company and work with really smart people and get a solid
51:50
salary like that would feel like a very rewarding end for me and probably something that would suit
51:57
my life stage a little bit better whenever that happens to roll around and yeah I have no idea
52:03
how long I'll live in the US like maybe I'll end up back in Australia I don't know I kind of just
52:09
I'll just assess like how I'm feeling what my gut's telling me but yeah I'd love I'd love sunroom
52:15
to just keep doing well and be acquired perhaps love them give me some money yep
52:25
yeah oh gosh I'm really gonna look into my whole like desire to buy a house I think in the next
52:31
few weeks that's gonna be my like put a mirror up and be like what is your obsession with needing
52:36
that because I don't know why but I really want to buy a house and this is making me think maybe I
52:41
need to that might just be you though and that's like so so fine like there are so many people who
52:46
you know don't want to have children you know there are so many people who don't really like their
52:51
career isn't their passion you know so maybe health and wellness is like there are so many things I'm
52:57
not focused on and I really I guess just hyper focus on a couple of things I actually care about
53:04
and I think becoming a mom does do that like how I was saying I basically worked 12 hours a week
53:09
I can work really intensely for like 12 hours a week week right now which is nothing compared to
53:14
what I used to do but I honestly have never my inbox has never been more exciting and I've never
53:20
achieved as much as sunroom in most 12 hours than ever before and I'm kind of like what the
53:25
fuck was I doing like I only focus on I only focus on things that will make our company money now
53:31
which is what I should have been doing for the past four years but it took having a baby to be like
53:37
you really have to like ruthlessly prioritize I just have one more question in terms of dating apps
53:44
and their stock prices do you think that the dating app business model has longevity in terms of
53:51
being a public company that mean that the stock prices of bumble and obviously hinge and tinder
53:57
and in part of match group have just done absolutely terribly and I just would love to get an
54:02
insider's knowledge into like the whole business model is that you use the app you find love and
54:07
then you get off and so I'm just like that I mean that's sorry the very traditional and the
54:11
most traditional scenes yeah any insights you know any little tips in terms of what's what's going on
54:19
because I want to be on the hinge bandwagon but I just like look at their share price and
54:24
the concept of like a once and done Kleenex throw it out I'm like how is that how are they going to
54:29
overcome that I do think the business model has longevity because the same amount of people that
54:35
exit the dating game are the same amount of people that enter the dating age not to mean like
54:41
there are a good point yeah like how many people are there like turning 18 every single year
54:46
and downloading a dating app how many new kids start college every single year and like want to
54:52
meet fresh people on their campus how many people go through backups yeah yeah yeah so I think that
55:00
I don't think the need for connection is going anywhere I think the question mark is more
55:07
around dating app fatigue like it was this huge thing it all started back in like 2012 when tinder
55:14
launched bumble was 2014 this ship's been sailing for over a decade yeah and so I kind of wonder
55:21
like what is what comes after dating apps it's like the other day I've noticed you know people create
55:27
Instagram handles for their babies and I'm like I don't know if our babies are going to be thinking
55:31
this is some cool app yeah let's try log into your Instagram or just find a password somewhere like
55:40
imagine you feel like oh mom you're so embarrassing yeah I think we're almost starting to like
55:46
progress yeah you know like we've all been pulled so heavily online it's more like we're actually
55:52
wanting like meetups and to go back to like letter writing and digital detoxes and like all of that
55:58
yeah I also hate the idea of going out to a bar and like no one goes and approaches you know
56:03
on anymore because that's done on the apps and I think that sucks because it means not only from
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like a dating perspective but you just don't talk to people that are outside of your
56:11
immediate circle and I think that is a real shame and I do think that the Gen Z generation in general
56:17
are like really selling to hate on socials and wanting to put their phone away and be in real life
56:22
and I love that yeah it will be really interesting to see what happens because yeah both of our
56:28
businesses are very digital yeah yeah I'm fascinated to see what happens I'm also fascinated to see
56:34
like what's next after social social networks because yeah like they'll they'll have to be
56:39
something else magic if we have to write thank you letters and like by hand one day and send
56:44
letters by pigeon I mean wow yeah yeah my mom still sends me a thank you letter like for her birthday
56:50
present in the mail oh that's really sweet and get and get reminds me around my birthday if I've
56:57
seen thank you letters I'm like it's really cute mom I've just sent you around a group message
57:00
like no I have it no I love that I love that well we will be sending you a thank you letter
57:05
for this podcast so thank you so much you're cute love that no no worries thanks for having me
57:11
no thank you for your time it was so great to chat it was it kind of took a completely
57:15
different route to what we planned to be honest but really into it thank you so much it was so
57:20
all pretty interesting okay we'll speak to you soon thank you so much for listening to raising the
57:26
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57:30
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57:35
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57:54
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57:58
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58:03
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58:11
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58:16
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58:21
this