Latest / The Layback Podcast / Jess Geiger discusses her seminal study on forearm strengthening (Ep. 68)

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Jess Geiger discusses her seminal study on forearm strengthening (Ep. 68) · The Layback Podcast

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Hey, everyone, welcome back to the Lay Back podcast.
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Joining us today is Jess Geiger. Jess is a graduate of Wake
0:07
Forest, graduate of Virginia Tech, doing some really cool
0:10
things in the biomedical space these days, just picked up a job
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with New Balance. I'm not going to butcher this
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any more than I probably already have, so you guys know the
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drill. Just at this point, I'm going to
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hand it off to Jessica. Jessica, thanks a ton for coming
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on today. And I'm really looking forward
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to the discussion we have going forward with the study, the
0:32
human side of it and really just the work that you have done over
0:39
the past calendar year. Of course, thanks for having me
0:43
on, Adam. Like you said, I graduated from
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Virginia Tech in 2023 with my bachelor's in mechanical
0:50
engineering, and then I went on to get my master's degree in
0:54
biomedical engineering where I did all of my research in the
0:58
Wake Forest bio mechanics and pitching lab.
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It was an awesome experience and I just graduated this last
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spring. And while I was there, I also
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was a data processing engineer for Kinetrax, which was really
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great to have both the Kinatrax experience and my graduate
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experience. And then now, like you said as
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well, I'll be going off to New Balance as a sports research
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engineering intern, which I'm super duper excited about.
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And I'm in Boston now and can't wait to get started with that.
1:27
Awesome stuff. Yeah, I definitely didn't
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mention the Kinatrax, which is cool.
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To your background, I know you are a Mitten native, you're from
1:36
Michigan as well. And if I'm not mistaken, your
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athletics background was lacrosse in field hockey,
1:43
correct? Yep Yep, I did both of those.
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I played lacrosse very briefly at Virginia Tech and stopped
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because of engineering and COVID and there was a bunch of
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different factors. But yes, I was a little cross
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player growing up. So then, ultimately, what was
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the draw to baseball from the sports that you had grown up
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playing? I kind of ended up at the Wake
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Forest pitching lab on accident. I originally wanted to go into
2:11
my program, which is a dual program between Wake Forest and
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Virginia Tech. Virginia Tech really had a
2:16
strong engineering program and Wake Forest had a very strong
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hospital background. And so the two universities
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joined together to make their S best program, which stands for
2:27
the School of Biomedical Engineering and Sciences.
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And so because I was at Virginia Tech, I kind of just wanted to
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sail right into my graduate degree there and continue in
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Blacksburg. But I got invited to come check
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out Wake Forest when I was doing all of my grad school
2:43
recruitment. And when I was there, I
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interviewed with Doctor Nicholson, the head of the
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pitching lab, and I absolutely fell in love with it.
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I mean, it's obviously such an amazing facility.
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It's super duper cool to do research there.
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And Doctor Nicholson is also super smart.
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She's very humble and she's done a ton of amazing research.
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So it was almost, how could I not take that opportunity?
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And our running joke was always that we didn't really know much
3:13
about baseball, but we had a lot of bio mechanics background in
3:17
research. And so we were the two women of
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the pitching lab and we, we really ran up all of that bio
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mechanics. And I'm really glad I went
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forward with that research and with that experience because it
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truly was a once in a lifetime experience.
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And I'm so glad I I got to be there.
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Certainly bolsters the resume. I think the the baseball world
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is always looking for something new, obviously.
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From. What we try to do there, there's
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no question the the research drives what we do and what the
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industry does as a whole. So what was the first research
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project, big or small, that you took on, either at the lab or on
4:00
your own? Well, starting in the lab at
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first was just getting comfortable with our our
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day-to-day functions, whether that was a pitching evaluation
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or how we were interacting with the team.
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And Doctor Nicholson was a really great advisor and saying,
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I understand you're a graduate student and you really have to
4:15
get those classes and credits done.
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And so our first year was pretty much focused on getting those
4:21
classes done. But we were still within the lab
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functioning with the day-to-day operations.
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Like I said, the evaluations with the team, data cleaning,
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processing, all of that good stuff.
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But when it came to my research, I approached Dr. Nicholson by
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saying I wasn't 100% sure exactly what I wanted to do, but
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I knew I wanted to have a project that really focused on
4:42
injury rehabilitation and prevention.
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And that's when Flexpro Grip came into play.
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And she told me the team is using the device and this device
4:54
is supposed to help players prevent UCL injuries or rehab
4:59
those injuries. And so I went forward with that
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study because I said, you know, very conveniently the team was
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using it and they had used it for the past year or so.
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And it's, it's nice to have it right there in front of you at
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your fingertips. I mean, in science, a lot of the
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problems are participant recruitment.
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And I had a whole pitching roster at my fingertips.
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So I went forward that and, and the idea of the research was
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very interesting to me. But I also did a study where I
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looked at statistical parametric mapping of bio mechanics that
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could perhaps help coaches indicate where a player might be
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at risk for UCL injury. And so is not necessarily a
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predictive model, but it's it was to compare those bio
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mechanics and understand if there are certain factors that
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do differ between those players that went on to rupture their
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UCL versus those who did not. So a lot of the ideas were
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produced by Doctor Nicholson and she helped me with those ideas,
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but we did talk together and to develop where I would go in what
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direction for my research. When did you take on that
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biomechanical mapping project? Was that before the grip
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strengthening study or were you doing those kind of
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simultaneously? I started it prior to the
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Flexpro Grip study because it was a retrospective study, which
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means I didn't collect any data. I used pre-existing data that we
6:30
had within the lab. So I could kind of do it
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whenever, you know, and it wasn't necessarily a timeline or
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I had to get a bunch of participants rallied up.
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It was just data that I had and writing my code and
6:44
understanding the results and interpreting those.
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But a lot of my research was done side by side.
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So I was getting all of my participants together for this
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study, but then also working with my whole other study that
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was going on and trying to understand it and clean up the
6:59
data and cut in and make sure it made sense.
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And so there was a lot going on at once.
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So that was happening in my other study and then also
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everything that goes on in the lab from a regular day-to-day
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basis. Right, because as a lab worker,
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I don't know what the proper team member.
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I don't know what the proper phrasing there would be as a
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member. Like a a graduate lab assistant
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or just like a graduate laboratory technician type of.
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A OK, so as one of the individuals assisting in the lab
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with all the fancy titles and names associated with it, your
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goal is also to help the team win as support staff correct or
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present data that can eventually be used for the team.
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And I know there's a difference between the analytics team and
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the actual crew in the lab. So I'm assuming though there's a
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lot of crossover or support one to the other.
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Or am I just completely out of pocket and try to make that
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connection? Yes and no.
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So we do some preliminary evaluations on all the pitchers.
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So like when all of the either transfers or freshmen come in,
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we like to have all the players come in and we'll run a a
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pitching evaluation essentially on them without doing all of our
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range of motion. And just like other testing we
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will do, but we'll do a full biomechanical analysis of their
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throw and then meet with the pitching coaches and staff just
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to help them understand how their players are moving, what
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they might want to be looking at and improving their pitch, how
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they could potentially increase their speed or decrease that
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elbow baris torque, stuff like that.
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But on a regular day-to-day basis, the analytics team does
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work a lot more closely with the team.
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We focus more on those pitching evaluations that come in people
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that aren't on the Wake Forest team, but then also other
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studies we may have going on within the lab.
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So we did like a dance study. We had the quarterback from the
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football team came in and we did a throwing evaluation on him.
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Or if there's a whole bunch of different research that goes on
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within our lab, it's not just tailored to the the Wake
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pitchers, which is cool, but it's nice that they also have
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access to us if they need us. Totally.
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OK. Well, I appreciate that
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clarification because that was not something I fully
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understood. I want to back things up for a
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bit now. You mentioned you were a
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mechanical engineering student at Virginia Tech.
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How did mechanical engineering get parlayed into biomedical?
9:56
That's a good question. So when I was a freshman, I was
10:00
going back and forth on whether or not I wanted to do biomedical
10:03
or mechanical, and everyone always told me they were like
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just go with mechanical. Everyone loves a mechanical
10:08
engineer. You're the most versatile
10:10
engineer. You can go into the aerospace
10:13
field, you can go into the chemical field, you can go into
10:16
the like electrical engineering field.
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You can go pretty much wherever because you're a Jack of all
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trades and they teach you everything.
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So you're an extremely dynamic engineer and you learn a lot,
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but I always wanted to go into more of a human side of
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engineering. And while I don't think we
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necessarily look at the human body as an engineering problem,
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it really is when you look at injury and recovery, because
10:45
every component of your body is a different segment and a moment
10:49
arm and everything's moving together.
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And it's, it's really all just a big physics problem and how we
10:54
can eliminate those injuries and parts of your body breaking.
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And so I knew that I wanted to go into bio mechanics because
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while I was at Virginia Tech, I volunteered in a motion capture
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lab there called the Granada Lab.
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And they do primarily gait and running.
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And they'll look at, you know, how people are moving and
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walking, whether that's before and after surgery or just under
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different conditions, ACL tears, all that good stuff.
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And I absolutely loved it. I fell in love with it so much.
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I thought it was the coolest thing ever applying engineering
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to the human body. It was just so cool.
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So that was my first experience to bio mechanics and I wanted to
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do that. And the pitching lab was like
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the perfect combination between what I wanted to do, but also my
11:40
love of sports. Granted, I didn't know a whole
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lot about baseball, but I know a lot more now.
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It's a very cool experience taking a very, I don't know how
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to explain mechanical engineering.
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It's just like a very complicated degree that's
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usually thought out as like applied to cars or air
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conditioners, HVAC systems, but taking that and putting it
12:06
towards baseball and explaining how your body is really just a
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big machine working together. So it's a really cool field and
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I absolutely love it so much. I love what I do everyday so.
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So appreciate you connecting those dots and I'm I'm glad you
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mentioned the human element and that being such a driver of what
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you do. Yes, knowing kind of our mission
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for this episode is to share the human side of the amazing work
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you did. We are very appreciative that we
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were able to be, I guess a third party in a sense.
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I don't know the fancy terms of research or when these things
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actually get published, but we were honored that you wanted to
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study the actual efficacy of Flex Pro Grip.
12:57
And that might even be a good place to start because off
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camera or I guess off recording, we've talked briefly about what
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your initial hypotheses were going into this study and not
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the hypothesis of what a grip strengthening program could do.
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But actually you just as a person looking at what we claim
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Flexpro Grip can do and then you saying, yeah, I don't know if
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it's going to do what they say. And don't worry, Jess, because
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don't worry, because I spent the first year of our development of
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Flexpro Grip as a company trying to prove it wouldn't work like
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that. That was my goal was just like,
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I don't, I don't like nobody else could do this.
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Like nobody else has reduced the risk of elbow injuries.
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How can a father and son team be the ones that actually figure
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this out? So I I doubted it myself.
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But with all that, I'm just going to pass it over to you to
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take this torch. And I'll interject along the
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way. But the the initial take away or
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the initial take from you I suppose was you had your doubts,
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correct? Yeah, I was not fully convinced
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at first we, you know, see the device.
14:15
And then I think to myself, like, how could this possibly
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work? It doesn't seem like it would to
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me. And done a lot of like forearm
14:22
strengthening workouts where you take the rod and, you know, you
14:25
roll it up and you have the weight on it.
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And I'm like, how is this any like more special than that?
14:30
And how is this specifically targeting all of these special
14:35
muscles that are, I don't know. I was not convinced at all.
14:38
I really was working and working to see if it did work.
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And like we saw it did, It really did work a lot.
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And I was shocked. I remember sitting in my lab
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meeting when I was going through my results and I was like, yeah,
14:55
it worked. It it decreased that elbow
14:58
gapping and really stabilized the medial elbow.
15:01
So I was, I was really happily surprised I guess.
15:06
And I mean, I got obviously that's great for you all as well
15:10
to have a device that's working and people are using it and
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hopefully decreasing those injuries or strengthening their
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their forearms to rehab their elbow back from an elbow injury.
15:24
But yeah, I was not convinced at 1st and I was I was proven
15:29
wrong. It definitely feels good to know
15:32
that we aren't snake oil salesman, that we're that we're
15:35
actually doing what we claim to do coming from third party
15:38
research as well. But maybe maybe the the cute
15:43
little question here is how many times did you run your data to
15:48
actually convince yourself that the IT was real in it worked?
15:53
I was measuring ultrasound images for weeks and weeks and
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weeks. I was going insane looking at
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black and white images of elbows and forearm muscles.
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It was horrible. I did not have a lot of fun
16:09
doing that. And I would go back and double
16:11
check to make sure like, wait, was that really, you know, did
16:14
their gapping really decrease that much?
16:17
Like, let me let me double check that again.
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Let me go see. And you know, remeasure and lo
16:21
and behold, like yes, it was that way.
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And I did a lot of double checking because I wasn't again,
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I wasn't convinced. I really just thought there's no
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way it's my fault. Again, I just re measured over
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and over and it really was the truth.
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Looking at those numbers and running different statistical
16:41
analysis of, you know, you're testing different things and
16:46
comparing different types of numbers and data and all that
16:50
type of stuff. So I did a lot of running,
16:54
running of numbers, but also a lot of measuring.
16:57
It was just so much measuring and reading as well.
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And yes, a lot of work. We are very much appreciated
17:07
that you did that work and maybe bad podcasting, but I realize
17:13
most people are pretty consistent listeners, but we
17:15
might have buried the lead a little bit here.
17:17
So if I can ask maybe maybe if you can give the elevator pitch
17:22
style summary of the study as a whole?
17:26
Definitely. So the study was the purpose of
17:28
the study was to look at whether or not this forearm
17:31
strengthening device AKA the Flexpro grip would help
17:35
stabilize and decrease the medial elbow joint gapping.
17:38
So the space between the two bones in the elbow, whether or
17:43
not that will decrease or not through strengthening those
17:47
extrinsic forearm muscles that do protect the UCL.
17:51
And so I had two groups, a control group that did not use
17:54
the Flex Pro grip and then I had the group that did use the Flex
17:58
Pro grip and it was over 10 weeks.
18:00
And I measured all of their variables before and after that
18:04
10 weeks to see where their changes may have occurred.
18:07
And granted I didn't have a whole lot of control over the
18:11
control group. It was just kind of sending them
18:13
off into the wild and saying don't use the Flexpro grip.
18:17
And then the other group was saying please use it in the next
18:20
10 weeks. So I was looking at if those
18:23
muscles, if the muscle cross-sectional area was
18:26
increasing for utilizing the device for 10 weeks as well as
18:30
their joint gapping with weight and without weight at 90 and 30°
18:35
of elbow flexion. Just seeing how that elbow gap
18:38
was changing. Like I said, the group that did
18:41
use the Flexpro grip, their elbow joint gapping changed
18:44
significantly. They're changing gapping.
18:47
So they're weighted to the unweighted condition, which is a
18:51
good variable to look at because it shows how much the elbow gap
18:54
is opening up under a load, which is precisely what a
18:58
baseball player is doing when they are pitching.
19:01
So looking at that and how much their elbow is opening up over a
19:04
dynamic movement is super beneficial for us to know.
19:08
As if it opens up less than their forearm muscles are
19:13
working to bear that load and their UCL is not getting nearly
19:16
as exposed as it would without it.
19:19
So yeah, really cool stuff. And beyond that being really
19:24
cool stuff, I think that was explained tremendously.
19:27
I do think it's kind of funny the feedback that I got from the
19:30
Zoom call or the the whole webinar where a lot of people
19:35
that I interact with are not biomedical engineers.
19:39
They're not on the medical side. They're pitching coaches or
19:44
they're facility coaches or they run teams and they're saying
19:48
that stuff seemed really cool and I understood a few of those
19:53
words, but I know that it works. And now I just want to clip what
20:00
you just said there and be like, all right, if you didn't
20:03
understand that, I know you'll understand this.
20:05
So I would say great job with the summary.
20:07
I I don't think it could have been done more effectively
20:11
because now all of us 4th grade level brain people fully
20:15
understand what happened, what played out.
20:18
I think now maybe discussing a little bit more.
20:22
Of the subjects that you worked with or that you observed, I
20:26
guess would probably be the better terminology.
20:29
So you were forced to deal with the nature of a college baseball
20:33
fall. You had two collegiate teams.
20:36
One collegiate team was the group that underwent Flexpro
20:39
grip training. Another collegiate team did not
20:43
undergo flexpro grip training. And with that, like you did not
20:48
have any say so in what those guys did beyond hey guys train
20:54
on Flexpro. After that it was do your
20:57
throwing program, do your weight training, do whatever you
21:03
normally do correct. Yep.
21:05
And I mean, obviously with any sign or scientific question you
21:10
have, you can only control so much.
21:13
And I wasn't going to put these guys in a bubble.
21:16
And I know from the webinar there was a lot of questions of
21:18
like, did you control this? Did you know this?
21:20
Did you know that? And you really can only control
21:22
so much. And also this was, it was a
21:24
master's thesis. So I had two years.
21:27
And if I was getting a PhD, it would have been more interesting
21:30
to take more measurements and look at them more often.
21:32
But I didn't have that kind of time or accessibility to them.
21:36
They are highly controlled by, you know, their schedules and
21:40
they have a class schedule as well and, and fall ball.
21:43
And so I was only able to look at them twice, like I said
21:46
before and after that 10 weeks working with them and scheduling
21:51
ultrasound was kind of a beast, I'm not going to lie, because
21:55
you had to talk to the coaches, but then the coaches had to talk
21:57
to them. And then maybe they would miss
21:59
their appointment because somebody slept too long.
22:01
And I was like, I really need you to come, please.
22:04
They'll know with science, the more the merrier with the
22:06
participants because that makes the the statistics a lot more
22:10
reliable. I had some people that they have
22:14
not completed the correct training plan that they were
22:18
supposed to or some guys got injured on the control group.
22:22
So injury's inevitable, can't control for that and that
22:26
that'll naturally occur. Or if someone simply didn't do
22:29
the program like they were supposed to.
22:31
So there were a lot of things I wasn't able to control, but
22:37
essentially they were just told please do your Flexpro grip.
22:40
I was always in the lab in and out.
22:42
I'd be in there doing my lab day-to-day things.
22:46
I would ask them like, are you guys doing it?
22:48
Are you, are you still making sure to do your Flexpro grip And
22:51
they're yes, we are or? Yes, Jessica.
22:56
But I didn't have so much like control or just eyes on the
23:00
control group. There wasn't a a need for it
23:03
other than just like don't do Flexpro grip and just listen to
23:08
your pitching coach. One, I do think it's kind of
23:10
funny that I know one athlete also had to be removed from the
23:14
control group from the jump because he had been training on
23:17
flex pro grip for a month or so at by the time the start of the
23:22
study and then train throughout the entire fall.
23:25
So. And he didn't tell me at the
23:26
start, so I was like, OK got. It good thing, good thing we
23:33
were in a consistent communication there.
23:35
So I, I was able to pass that along to you.
23:38
Otherwise that might have, that might have muddied the waters
23:41
just a little bit. Granted, it would have been one
23:44
out of 18 as opposed to, yeah, a significant percentage, but
23:48
still. And then the other thing that I
23:50
was going to hit on was actually one of the Q&A questions that
23:56
was sent out during the webinar that I thought was a pretty good
23:58
one, but I felt like surface level, it meant a lot.
24:03
Then the more you break it down and the more you understand
24:06
college athletics, it might not mean as much.
24:10
You played a bit of college lacrosse.
24:12
You've obviously witnessed college athletics for a long
24:15
time, especially at a high level.
24:16
I remember one of the questions said, did the control group do
24:24
similar forearm training, just not on the device during the
24:28
dedicated 10 minutes three times a week that the training group
24:33
performed on Flexpro? And I'm curious your reaction
24:37
here. At first I thought like, wow,
24:39
this is this is a pretty insightful question.
24:41
It would be interesting to see like what if they had that
24:44
designated same exact training time?
24:47
And then I stepped away from it for a little bit and thought to
24:49
myself, well, they're college athletes and they're training
24:55
and they're gripping and they're doing all these things anyways.
24:58
And they're like, they're the control group, meaning they
25:03
they're doing what damn near every college baseball player in
25:06
the country is doing. That was that was my team.
25:11
The point of it was let's see a collegiate, a high level, you
25:14
know, collegiate baseball team training how everyone else does.
25:19
They go off and do what they normally would do.
25:22
Same with my Flex Pro Grip group.
25:25
All that was added there was the Flexpro Grip.
25:28
I didn't have any say or control over what the control or the
25:32
Flexpro Grip group was doing besides the fact that they were
25:35
using the device. Pretty much all we said is do
25:38
what you normally do. And obviously every college
25:41
level team is going to be strength training.
25:43
They're going to be doing strength and conditioning of all
25:46
different types of forms. And so they could have been
25:50
doing some forearm training, but I guess the point of having them
25:55
not use the the device was to show how the Flex Pro grip can
26:00
specifically target those muscles.
26:02
Whereas if they were still doing that, that forearm strengthening
26:07
in a different form, perhaps it doesn't necessarily target them.
26:11
So I essentially I didn't have much control or say over
26:16
anything. The point of it was that we send
26:18
them off and we just say don't use the Flexpro grip.
26:21
And then the Flexpro grip group obviously used the device and so
26:24
they could have had some strength training involved.
26:26
But again, so the device is it's supposed to specifically target
26:30
those extrinsic muscles that surround the UCL and protect the
26:35
UCL. And what the what the research
26:37
did show is that by specific typically targeting those
26:40
muscles and strengthening those muscles through a designated
26:43
hand gripping device that targets them, that we can help
26:47
decrease that elbow gapping and further alleviate the stress
26:51
that is being applied to the UCL during pitching.
26:55
I appreciate you adding some science back detail to my basic
27:00
take, which was I know this makes sense the way that it was
27:04
performed, but you obviously did it's all going.
27:06
To be strength training, I mean, it's inevitable.
27:09
I couldn't tell them, sorry, you can't lift weights, sorry you
27:12
can't RIP anything. You know, it's everyone's going
27:15
to be training, everyone's going to be lifting.
27:17
And I can't say no to anything. I mean, they were just told do
27:22
what you do normally and we're just going to measure some
27:25
things. So along this path, if you could
27:30
effectively run back the study and let's say you had a ton of
27:34
manpower, like you just controlled a team of researchers
27:38
under you and observers, what are other things that you would
27:43
maybe want to control? How often do you think you would
27:47
want to do ultrasounds if you could do them more often?
27:52
And I know this is all hypothetical, so there's no
27:55
right or wrong answer, Like what would be your ideal number of
27:59
participants on each side? What would be your ideal amount
28:03
of capture windows? Different things like that.
28:07
So again, because this was a master's thesis, I I didn't
28:10
necessarily have the manpower to really fine-tuned the study, but
28:16
I did it to the best of my abilities.
28:17
Right. You shouldered everything
28:19
basically with some support from the team, but still.
28:22
Definitely, yeah. But so my study consisted of a
28:26
mix of players that had already had a Tommy John surgery and
28:30
players who did not have a Tommy John surgery already.
28:32
I think it would be interesting to do this study again with
28:35
players who have not had the surgery at all.
28:38
So really just understanding how those muscles are working to
28:42
protect the elbow. Not saying that that player with
28:44
the Tommy John has a different experience to those who do not,
28:48
but I think it's helpful to understand it in players who
28:51
haven't had any manipulation to that medial elbow.
28:54
And then also, I think the cohort sizes need to be much
28:57
larger. I mean, again, I only really
29:00
had, I had 18 per cohort, I think.
29:04
I think 50 on both sides would be really, really nice to have a
29:07
large sample size there and it improves the statistics as well.
29:12
But then if I could control things or just understand more
29:15
what was going on, I would probably have both cohorts
29:18
running the same strength and conditioning.
29:21
So they would be on the same strength and conditioning.
29:23
They would probably have the same pitching schedule, practice
29:26
instruction, whatever that may be.
29:28
They're obviously student athletes so I can't really
29:30
control their class schedule, but I don't know how much sleep
29:33
would would play into that. But I think having them do the
29:37
same exact strength and conditioning and then pitching
29:40
program would really mimic that. Also maybe having the same
29:44
amount of right-handed players and left-handed players.
29:46
We had a little bit of a mix there, but it was pretty
29:49
similar. And then the age, I think it
29:51
would be interesting to look at maybe just freshmen coming in or
29:56
just seniors, because my control group did have a lot more
30:00
graduate and just like older players.
30:03
So they were transfers, whereas my Flexpro group had a lot more
30:08
incoming freshmen, which is totally fine.
30:11
It's just that perhaps when they come in at that higher level,
30:15
collegiate level, they're really getting strong from that because
30:19
they they weren't training maybe at such a high rigor when they
30:24
weren't in college. But I could totally be wrong.
30:27
It would just be an interesting science question just to look at
30:30
those differences and how age could affect that.
30:33
Part of the reason I even asked is I think it's really fun to
30:37
think about what would be perfect and how close are we to
30:42
that. Even the things you stated
30:45
you're not that far off. Like those are things you really
30:47
can't control for. I feel like if you were even
30:51
given a larger team to support you, the most you could do is
30:57
extend the protocol by two weeks and AB like 3 more ultrasound or
31:01
like 2 ultrasounds in between but that also.
31:05
Sorry, go ahead. No, no, that's on me.
31:07
I spoke over you. Go ahead.
31:09
I was going to say measuring more frequently would be
31:12
interesting just to understand how their muscles are developing
31:16
and how their medial elbow gapping space is changing
31:19
through that protocol. Just for a more periodic
31:22
understanding of but when? When is this occurring in the
31:27
process? Is it early stage changes?
31:30
Is it late stage changes? Or is it?
31:32
Is it truly a quote UN quote linear progression or we seen
31:38
the actual like hockey stick pick up over time?
31:41
Exactly. And the other tricky part with
31:43
this, and especially just in baseball is working around the
31:46
staff. You don't have a whole lot of
31:47
say as a researcher on what their pitching schedule is going
31:51
to be or what their strength and conditioning schedule might look
31:55
like. And so you kind of just have to
31:58
go with what you're told and what the team is doing because
32:03
I'm not a pitching coach, I'm not a strength and conditioning
32:06
coach, and that's not my specialty.
32:08
So I'm not going to go tell them what to do and what their
32:12
schedule is going to look like. So balancing that between the
32:16
staff is also a factor that needs to be taken account for.
32:22
Let's go down that path for a minute.
32:24
So if you were in an academic position, or let's say you were
32:29
given the reins much like Doctor Nicholson has, and you're
32:33
encouraging other students to take on these projects.
32:37
What would what would be some of the recommendations that you
32:40
would make to someone else taking on a research project,
32:44
whether it's in the collegiate athletic setting that you did
32:49
yours in or maybe someone who's doing it at one of the massive
32:54
baseball facilities? Basically, if you if you could
32:57
offer some influence or guidance to someone else in your shoes,
33:01
what would you recommend? Definitely being open minded.
33:05
You have a closed mind in this field.
33:06
It's so difficult to navigate and move because things are
33:11
constantly changing. Bumps in the road come up all
33:15
the time. It's inevitable to hit a speed
33:18
bump and for something to change or someone to miss their
33:22
appointment that they were supposed to come in and you have
33:24
to remove participants and nothing goes perfectly.
33:27
So having an open mind and being willing to learn and adapt to
33:31
those changes is huge. And then also, I would say just
33:36
reading and learning from past literature of where people have
33:41
had shortcomings or where they found success in their research
33:45
specifically is super helpful in developing your protocols and
33:49
and your research and how it's all going to work together.
33:53
I don't think if there's anything else though, but I
33:56
think that's all. I'll take that.
33:59
Maybe a follow up on the open mind, why I want to follow up
34:03
specifically on that recommendation might just be
34:07
showing my, I guess my naive mind when it comes to hard data
34:12
research of when, when I hear open mind at first I think like,
34:18
Oh yeah, I'm willing to hear these other perspectives or the
34:22
ability to pivot these kind of things.
34:23
But you're, you're trying to figure out hard data and present
34:28
really solid evidence. So then how do you then balance,
34:34
I guess the human beings that you're working with as subjects
34:38
and at that 18 to 22 year olds who basically have complete
34:44
autonomy over their lives and do whatever they want and sleep
34:47
till noon and play video games and all these different things.
34:50
Granted, they do have to play baseball a few hours today and
34:52
go to class occasionally, but balancing that with the very
34:57
specific mission that you are on.
35:00
So where, where does the open mind fit in?
35:03
Is it open mind with what is forced on you for your ability
35:08
to adapt or is it being able to change what you're trying to
35:11
track down in research? I would just like if you could
35:14
expand on that a little bit. It definitely presents itself in
35:18
a bunch of different forms and like you were saying, with the
35:20
participants themselves or perhaps the numbers you get.
35:24
Statistics is a very convoluted subject in which maybe you have
35:30
a certain data set and you're allowed to run certain tests
35:33
because of normality and variance assumptions, all that,
35:37
you know, fancy statistical stuff.
35:39
And you might be running a test and you realize my data isn't
35:43
normal, meaning like a normality assumption, not, you know, the
35:47
other way around. But you run a test and you're
35:50
like, well, crap. Like I can't run whatever test I
35:54
planned on running because my data does not present a certain
35:58
way. So sometimes you run into
36:00
hiccups with how you want to perform analysis, or you run
36:05
into hiccups with your participants themselves, or
36:09
perhaps they didn't tell you something along the way and then
36:14
at the end they tell you. So you kind of just have to be
36:18
ready to take on different challenges that do come up
36:22
within research. It's extremely inevitable where
36:25
are wherever you may be in science, nothing goes to plan.
36:29
And that's OK because it's science and this is just life,
36:33
right? Like shit happens.
36:35
So having that open mind allows you to, I think learn more too.
36:40
I mean, I think I learned so much just going off the script
36:44
of what I wanted it to specifically be like.
36:47
But things change, like I said, and having that open mind really
36:51
allows you to think more critically and analyze data
36:57
differently and, and just really look at the whole picture of the
37:00
research and understanding how how all of these factors work
37:04
together and how important certain parts of that data
37:08
collection really is. When I hear that explanation,
37:13
the word agility really comes to mind.
37:17
Yeah, the the ability to receive information, pivot accordingly,
37:23
adjust, react all all the above. That that was just the word that
37:28
was buzzing in my skull. Right.
37:30
Because I mean also you get missing data sometimes.
37:33
I'm, I was going through a picture and I was like, oh man,
37:35
I didn't get the FDS on this guy.
37:37
And there's ways to overcome that.
37:40
But it's, it obviously gets discussed in a research paper
37:44
and all that good stuff, but you learn a lot of ways to overcome
37:49
the speed bumps that you encounter during research and
37:53
you have to be agile like you said.
37:55
Now maybe the next piece of this is not so much.
37:59
Where does the where does the data go from here?
38:03
But where do you go from here with the data?
38:06
I know you have some presentations later this summer.
38:09
I believe that's correct. And you're not even quite at the
38:14
official publication. I know you have your abstract,
38:17
you're able to at least talk about what you're doing, but
38:20
what else do you have to go through in this process to
38:24
actually get it on paper? Yeah, well, obviously I
38:28
submitted my thesis and graduated from grad school, all
38:30
that good stuff. So it's on paper somewhere, but.
38:34
I'm. Presenting at ASB this summer,
38:38
that happens alongside Abbs. So that's both.
38:42
They're both in Pittsburgh, PA and that's August 13th through
38:47
16th. I'll be there presenting at a
38:49
podium about this study, but I also need to do a lot of fine
38:54
tuning and working on just specifics for journals that may
38:59
be willing to accept my paper as a publication.
39:02
And so refining my work and my words as well.
39:06
Because papers really want that fine-tuned narrative of what you
39:10
found and what your results mean and what they show.
39:14
And there's a, a natural occurrence of being wordy and
39:19
really explaining a lot of different things, but they
39:21
really just want the, the really sweet and short version of this
39:27
is what happened. And this is what I saw and this
39:29
is what it means. And so I I have to work on my
39:32
writing of cutting it down and putting it into the form of what
39:36
the journal might want. How hard is that?
39:41
I would say it's pretty difficult because there's so
39:44
much you want to say. You know, you get really excited
39:47
about your research, at least I do.
39:48
I think it's so cool and I want to say everything, but it's
39:52
difficult to cut it down because they only want very specific
39:57
things. And that's completely fair.
39:59
I mean, not everyone wants to read 50 pages worth of data and
40:04
so. It's tricky to cut it down and
40:08
make it so specific that you're saying everything and anything
40:12
you want to say, but also saying it in the shortest way possible.
40:16
I would really struggle with that.
40:17
From the conversations I've had with you, I fully grasp why that
40:22
is difficult. Because you want to tell the
40:24
story, and the shorter it gets, especially since you lived it,
40:30
it probably feels like details are getting plucked out.
40:34
Of course, the actual hard literature, the data is still
40:38
there, but we know from being around athletics there's a story
40:43
behind every single number. And I'm sure there's a little
40:46
bit of you with the connection to the work you did where you
40:49
feel like it's losing something, even if it is what the journal
40:55
ultimately wants. Yeah.
40:57
And it's fun to explain, like, what those results mean.
41:01
And so saying this is what I saw and this is what it means, but
41:04
then taking that a step farther and saying this is also why this
41:09
helps pitchers and what that can lead to.
41:12
And so you have to really cut down the narrative, although I
41:16
really want to talk about it. I mean, why it's so great and
41:19
wonderful, but you can't do that whole thing just because that's
41:23
not what publishing is all about.
41:25
It's really just that hard facts and what the the repercussions
41:29
of your study is. This is a completely opinion
41:33
based question, so I don't want you to feel tied down to this
41:36
one one way or the other. Do you think as a whole,
41:40
scientific research could, or the publication of scientific
41:45
research could benefit from including more of those
41:49
reactions or takeaways? Or do you like it the way it is?
41:55
It conceivably could. I would say the way it is right
41:57
now, it's really nice like as a researcher to just look at what
42:01
has been done and knowing that this equals this or this cause
42:08
just cut and dry facts. And there could be an
42:10
alternative way for someone to understand the more in depth
42:13
research. But I guess that's where
42:15
conversations like this come into play.
42:17
When you're in the world of science, you do have a lot of
42:20
connections to other people and you're able to discuss with
42:23
others how they did their research and what difficulties
42:28
they may have run into or if they have any suggestions.
42:31
But I think the way research is published now is very just
42:35
helpful to another researcher just because we don't have time.
42:42
There's not enough time in the day.
42:44
And it's nice just to get those hard facts down.
42:48
There's so many papers you read through.
42:50
You read through hundreds and hundreds of papers and there's
42:53
just, again, there's not enough time in the day to hear not only
42:56
about what they did and what they saw and what that means,
43:00
but then everything else that they're there is with research.
43:05
We're we're going to take this path for a moment now.
43:08
Since you said there isn't enough time of the day, it
43:11
likely means there were some unimportant things that occurred
43:15
during the study that maybe weren't included or it was just
43:18
kind of like side effect data in a sense.
43:21
For my non research background, I feel like that's the best
43:25
thing I could call it. Is there any just weird or
43:30
strange take away or little happening or fun tidbit fact
43:35
that you found during the study that just had nothing to do with
43:39
your research that you haven't been able to let go of?
43:42
I mean, just the the ultrasound images that was that was rough.
43:47
I mean, again, I'm, I'm not a certified ultra stenographer,
43:50
but I can identify the medial epicondyle and I'm tubercle.
43:55
I can identify that. And looking at elbows of players
43:59
who did have Tommy John surgery, that was it was a beast for
44:03
sure. And I mean, sometimes there were
44:07
there were certain participants who were a bit of an outlier.
44:11
So there were removals of data there, but I wouldn't say there
44:15
was anything to out of the ordinary other than MY1 control
44:20
subject being a Flex pro user. That was a curveball there.
44:25
But I would say overall there were late nights coding and
44:28
sifting through numbers and making sure I wasn't recording
44:32
data in the wrong place and keeping it all organized.
44:35
But there weren't any like horrendous hiccups or anything
44:40
like that. Just just some long nights of
44:45
coding and data analysis and. There is never a point where you
44:49
thought, wow, I should become an ultrasound technologist.
44:53
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. And thankfully I had Doctor Pexa
44:58
with me. He, he took all those ultrasound
45:01
images for me. I would not have been able to do
45:04
that without him. So thank you to him for that.
45:07
But I yeah, looking through all those images, I never want to
45:11
see one ever again. And shout out me for again
45:16
butchering another word. I somehow created the word
45:19
technologist instead of technician.
45:21
So yeah, I'm, I'm on an absolute role today.
45:24
As you can tell, I. Didn't notice.
45:27
So hey, this is this is part of the reason I do it.
45:29
If I catch it, I can't be made fun of for it, right?
45:33
Or at least the the window to make fun of me shrinks
45:36
significantly. So with time winding down,
45:41
because as you said, there's not enough time in the day for
45:44
anybody that's in this field. We, we have a few things that we
45:47
haven't really covered. We didn't talk at all about what
45:50
you did with Kenna Tracks and we haven't talked at all about what
45:55
you're going to be doing in the future with New Balance.
45:58
I guess the quick Kinatrax question would be when in the
46:02
progression of you as a student did you take on the role with
46:04
Kinatrax? Was that in between Virginia
46:07
Tech, Wake Forest, was it during?
46:09
Where did that all fit in? I started my position at
46:12
Kinatrax. It was August of 2024, so it was
46:19
between my first and second year of grad school, and I took on
46:24
some, well, not some night shifts.
46:27
And so doing the 6:00 PM to 2:00 AM beast of a shift.
46:32
But baseball's always happening, right?
46:34
So if it's at 9:00 PM on the West Coast, it's 11:00 PM on the
46:41
East Coast. And so you're waiting for those
46:43
games to come in. And so you're working on your
46:45
thesis all day long and coding or you're in the lab and
46:48
collecting data and then you go home at night and you're working
46:50
from 6:00 PM to 2:00 AM and then you wake up the next day and do
46:53
it all again. And it, it was a good experience
46:56
and it was a good way to, to get myself really deeper into that
46:59
baseball community because like I said, I didn't really have any
47:03
baseball knowledge prior to, but we also used the system within
47:06
the lab. So it was, it was also helpful
47:08
to us to have a deeper understanding of the system and
47:11
the data we had running. But overall it was just a good
47:15
experience to have alongside my data analysis process through my
47:19
research, but then also having that separate experience through
47:22
Kinetrax. Probably a good enough run
47:24
through Kinetrax unless there's something that you feel like you
47:27
want to add, but I'm super interested in what you're going
47:32
to be doing with New Balance. Unless it's top secret and
47:34
you're not allowed to share with any of us.
47:37
No, it's, it's, it's a really cool position.
47:40
I mean, I, I kept telling people I'm like, oh, I'm not expecting
47:44
my dream job out of college. Like it's OK, I don't have to.
47:48
And this is kind of like exactly what I want to be doing.
47:52
And I'm just, I'm over the moon about it.
47:55
It's so again, the position I'm, I'm going to be an intern.
47:59
So it's a one year internship at New Balance as a sports research
48:02
engineer and I'm going to be working in their sports research
48:05
lab. And essentially what they're
48:07
doing there is engineering and researching all of their
48:11
different shoes that they're producing, whether it's running
48:13
shoes, basketball shoes, baseball cleats, track shoes,
48:18
all of those different sports and realms of shoes that they
48:22
produce. And so do mechanical testing,
48:25
but then also biomechanical testing.
48:27
So understanding how the human is moving with the shoe, but
48:30
also engineering the shoe specifically for longevity.
48:34
And then also human improvement. It's a double ended sword of
48:38
that human aspect, but also how the product moves with the
48:41
human. Well, if you can be the one that
48:46
debuts the wide toe box barefoot esque baseball cleat, I think
48:54
you will be the most famous woman on the planet in the
48:59
baseball sphere. That would be something,
49:02
wouldn't? It hey I would love it.
49:04
I I've got a few pairs of wide toe box barefoot shoes.
49:09
No free ads so I'm going to avoid saying brands but I I've
49:13
got a a few pairs sitting to my left and if I had cleats on
49:17
those I would be 1 ecstatic individual.
49:21
All right, well, I'll keep that in the back of my head as a
49:23
little note to sell. Yeah.
49:26
So if you ever get hit with the hey, does anyone have ideas of
49:30
what we could look at, feel free to take that as your own.
49:34
Will do. Yes.
49:36
Is there any specific project that you can think of?
49:40
So I gave you what I would love to see, but even going into the
49:44
work that you're going to be doing with New Balance, is there
49:48
a specific project that you would love to work on or that
49:51
you could envision potentially being a part of?
49:54
The the projects are endless. So there's so many different
49:57
routes to go and coming out of baseball, I mean, I already have
50:01
a really strong background in that now.
50:03
And so understanding like foot plant mechanics and how a shoe
50:07
could potentially impact that would be really interesting to
50:10
me. But something I'm really
50:12
interested is like the shoe latching mechanisms and where
50:17
shoes are tied and how it supports the foot when someone
50:20
is moving. And I love that that realm of
50:23
research and how, how a foot can be supported through a movement.
50:28
There's so many different ways, like soccer cleat, the lacing
50:31
kind of goes up the side or sometimes there's Velcro or
50:35
laces just up the middle or shoes will have a, the knob
50:38
system on it. So there's a, there's a bunch of
50:41
different ways a shoe can be designed to support someone in
50:46
their everyday movements. But I find that super
50:48
fascinating and I think it would be a really interesting research
50:52
question. But like I was saying
50:54
specifically for baseball, I mean a lot of my research
50:57
discussed how important the kinetic chain is and how the
51:02
transfer of energy up the body in the whole pitching movement
51:06
is so critical to not only how fast someone is throwing, but
51:12
how much force gets placed to their medial elbow.
51:15
And so potentially how a shoe is designed or supports one in that
51:22
pitching movement could impact their pitching mechanics but
51:27
also the forces experienced in their medial elbow.
51:31
Well, I love where your head's at because you're you're going
51:34
to go into a shoe and performance apparel company and
51:39
potentially still be impacting athlete health, which is
51:43
incredible. Yes, it's very, very exciting
51:46
and I love this realm. I love injury prevention,
51:50
rehabilitation and again, that's why I took on this project.
51:54
I find it so important but also interesting and I'd love
51:59
everyone to stay healthy of course, but injury is inevitable
52:03
and we have to find out how we can help those who become
52:07
injured. Well, we're, we're going to hit
52:09
you with one last fun question before we let you go for the
52:14
day. Given where you're from in
52:16
Michigan, given your time at Wake Forest and now being up in
52:21
Boston, you have plenty of tremendous sandwich shop
52:28
options. You had Michigan, you had
52:30
Zingerman's, you had Maize and Blue Deli.
52:32
Those are incredible spots. Wake Forest, you had the oldies
52:36
at your beck and call. You're in Boston, which is the
52:40
home of day near every corner market you could ever dream of
52:44
with the best food on the planet or some of the best food on the
52:48
planet. I'm still partial to New
52:49
Orleans, but I think we have a lot of Northeasterners excited
52:53
about their delis up there. What What is your ideal lunch?
53:01
That's a good question. Hey, we we got to keep people
53:03
guessing on here. The ideal lunch.
53:06
Ideal lunch. Oh boy.
53:10
Honestly, I have to go back to Michigan because my favorite
53:14
thing is I'm from the Rochester area.
53:17
There there's a place called Rochester Brunch House and they
53:20
have a phenomenal Rochester cherry chicken salad.
53:24
It is so good. And so Michigan is like known
53:27
for their cherries and stuff. So the cherries are so good, but
53:31
it has chicken on it and the most amazing Raspberry
53:35
vinaigrette and it has some blue cheese on it and there's like
53:38
walnuts in it. It's so good.
53:41
And then it comes with pita and they have the best coffee there
53:44
hands down. I mean, it's amazing breakfast,
53:46
but that salad is so top tier. I absolutely love it so much and
53:51
I miss it. I try to make it myself but it's
53:53
never the same so but cherries from Michigan, those are the
53:57
best. I apologize for making you
53:59
homesick at the end of this episode then, but yeah, isn't it
54:03
funny how the hardest question you get all day is the one that
54:06
you should be able to think of in an instant?
54:08
Just like what do I actually like to eat?
54:11
Is really fire though. I mean, their sandwiches are no
54:15
joke there. And if anyone's ever in Ann
54:16
Arbor, go to Zingerman's. Their sandwiches are insane and
54:21
they're so well known for a reason.
54:23
Yeah, I think Zingerman's might be 1 of Darrell's favorite spots
54:26
on Earth. He he definitely gets it every
54:28
time he's out there. So good.
54:31
But Jess, thanks a ton for the time today.
54:34
It was fun hanging out with you once again.
54:36
I know you're going to be super busy.
54:39
And unfortunately, we're not going to be able to talk about
54:41
the study, I think quite as much now that it is more or less
54:44
complete. But it's been great getting to
54:47
know you over this past calendar year, and we know you're going
54:50
to do great things taking on this new role at New Balance.
54:54
Thank you so much and it's been such a pleasure working with you
54:57
all. And this research has been
54:59
really life changing I guess. And I'm I'm so glad I can help
55:03
you all. But also lots of players within
55:05
baseball and other sports improve their forearm health.
55:09
Your name's going to be in the the history of baseball one day,
55:13
I like to think. It'd be cool.
55:15
It would be super cool, whether it's for forearm health or
55:19
designing the cleats that are going to make baseball players
55:23
really happy. But right, take it either way.
55:25
Regardless, this was an awesome conversation.
55:28
Thanks for hanging out with us today.
55:30
And everyone, thanks for laying back with us.