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Falling to Fly with Todd Fahnestock · WriterCon

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Speaker 1: This week on the writer Con podcast, Gosh, I think if.
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Speaker 2: I had just one piece of advice, I would say, right,
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Speaker 2: I know that that seems really really basic, But it
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Speaker 2: seems to me that after having done this for decades,
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Speaker 2: the thing that I have to keep coming back to
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Speaker 2: to remind myself that is the most important is sit
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Speaker 2: down and do the work. Just sit down and do
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Speaker 2: the work. When you hate what you're doing, sit down
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Speaker 2: and do the work. When you love what you're doing,
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Speaker 2: sit down and do the work. And I think the
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Speaker 2: more you do that, the better you're going to get.
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Speaker 1: Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
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Speaker 1: share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your
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Speaker 1: hosts are William Bernhardt, best selling novelist and author of
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Speaker 1: the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Laura Bernhardt, Award
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Speaker 1: winning author of the want lnn Files book series.
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Speaker 3: Thank you, Jesse or Rich Hey, they're writers. Thanks for
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Speaker 3: joining us again. This is our third first podcast for December,
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Speaker 3: and I know at my house people are already exchanging
1:02
Speaker 3: Actually they started exchanging Christmas lists around August. I think
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Speaker 3: so I will ask my friends on the podcast here
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Speaker 3: to help those of you listening do your Christmas shopping,
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Speaker 3: and of course all I care about our books. Is
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Speaker 3: there a book maybe something totally obvious. Nobody gets to
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Speaker 3: give their own books for gifts, But is there a
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Speaker 3: gift that you like or thinking about giving, or that
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Speaker 3: you would recommend as a Christmas gift? Laura, how about you?
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Speaker 4: I usually give books to my nieces and nephews, so
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Speaker 4: I just check in to see where they're at in
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Speaker 4: their current interests or where they're out in the series
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Speaker 4: that they like, and I'll pick up the next one,
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Speaker 4: and then I'll get usually something that goes along with it,
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Speaker 4: something that's tied to the book in some way, a theme,
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Speaker 4: or if there's like pajamas with the characters on it,
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Speaker 4: something like that, to give it a little extra fun
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Speaker 4: Christmas spin to it as well. I know you said
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Speaker 4: we don't give our own gifts, but I actually had
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Speaker 4: someone at work recently discovered that I read books and
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Speaker 4: asked me to please bring a set because he has
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Speaker 4: a reader in mind that he wants to gift my
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Speaker 4: setup books for Christmas. It was yep, it was a surprise.
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Speaker 4: He just came barreling in and.
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Speaker 5: Was like, I just found out you write books so lovely.
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Speaker 3: But you have a particular book that you like to
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Speaker 3: give as a gift, or when you think everybody ought
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Speaker 3: to read.
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Speaker 4: Or something everybody out to read.
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Speaker 3: That doesn't have your name on it. Jesse, how about you?
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Speaker 3: What do you like to give?
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Speaker 6: Yeah? Well normally I just asked the person if again
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Speaker 6: I know a lot. Yeah. Well, I don't know.
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Speaker 1: There's something weird, especially in I don't know. I feel
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Speaker 1: like today it'd be weird to be like, I bought
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Speaker 1: you this book. I think you're going to like it.
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Speaker 1: Here now is gonna take up space in your house,
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Speaker 1: and so I would try to gauge first if I
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Speaker 1: think they will like it, or if it's from an
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Speaker 1: author they already like. If anyone watching or listening would
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Speaker 1: like to buy me a Hanika present, you are welcome
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Speaker 1: to buy one of the incredibly beautiful leather bound versions
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Speaker 1: of brand Samerson's Stormade Archives that go for like two
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Speaker 1: hundred dollars each.
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Speaker 6: They're gorgeous. I can't afford them yet, but they are beautiful.
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Speaker 3: I think he should give us one as much as
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Speaker 3: we've given him.
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Speaker 6: Listen, Brando, I know you're listening. I know your people
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Speaker 6: are listening. Send me a book.
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Speaker 4: What about you what about you, Bill, What do you
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Speaker 4: think is the one go to perfect Christmas gift book?
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Speaker 3: The book I've given more often than any other, which
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Speaker 3: sometimes works and sometimes doesn't, is The Princess Bride.
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Speaker 6: I knew him, knew it. I was going to try
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Speaker 6: to guess before and I was like, it's give me
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Speaker 6: The Princess Bride.
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Speaker 3: But go with me, because I know a lot of
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Speaker 3: people have seen the movie. And if you've seen the
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Speaker 3: movie and then go to the book, which is very different,
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Speaker 3: you may not, you know, may not get what you're expecting. If,
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Speaker 3: on the other hand, you're me and you'd written read
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Speaker 3: the book many times before the movie came along. To me,
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Speaker 3: the movie was like, you know, kind of a sitcom
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Speaker 3: version of the best parts of the book. But the
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Speaker 3: original book by William Goldman, is this wonderful kind of
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Speaker 3: it was metafictional before I think people were tossing that
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Speaker 3: word around like they do now, and and it is
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Speaker 3: all It has even got this introduction that involves him
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Speaker 3: and his wife and his son. Except the thing is
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Speaker 3: he doesn't actually have a son. He has two daughters.
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Speaker 3: And he asked his daughters what should my next book
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Speaker 3: be about? And one set of Princess and one set
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Speaker 3: of bride, which is where the title came from. And
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Speaker 3: it talks about his wife the psychiatrist. He doesn't have
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Speaker 3: a wife who's a psychiatrist, and none of this is true.
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Speaker 3: He's just got enough facts in there. Two ma make
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Speaker 3: it real. When he starts telling you about this book
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Speaker 3: he loved as a kid by s. Morgan Stern and
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Speaker 3: how now he's going to give you the good parts version,
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Speaker 3: and goes on and on with this basically extended end
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Speaker 3: joke that fills the function in the movie. They do
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Speaker 3: it with Peter Falk the uncle. And you know that's cute.
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Speaker 3: It's shorter, but it's not nearly as interesting as I
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Speaker 3: just say. If you haven't seen the book, if you
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Speaker 3: haven't seen the movie, you'll read the book first. Okay,
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Speaker 3: Today we have the pleasure of interviewing Todd Ferrenstock, the
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Speaker 3: multiple best selling author of many fantasy novels. While he
5:39
Speaker 3: was still attending Colorado College, he published his first two
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Speaker 3: short stories, which Jesse, we're in TSR's dragon Lance anthologies.
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Speaker 3: I know you know what that is. And then in
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Speaker 3: two thousand and six he started writing longer work. He's
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Speaker 3: since published the best selling book, The Wishing World, which
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Speaker 3: kicked off a new series. His new book is Charlie Fiction,
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Speaker 3: a time travel urban fantasy novel involving a vengeful ghost
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Speaker 3: and an amni. And how do you say that? Amnesia
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Speaker 3: amnia time jumper? I mean, time travel would be bad enough,
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Speaker 3: but if you can't even remember anything when you get there,
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Speaker 3: that's got to be right. Anyway, That's what it's about.
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Speaker 3: He's going to somehow save the world. We're going to
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Speaker 3: talk about talk to Todd about that and so much more.
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Speaker 3: But first the news. I chose our first news story
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Speaker 3: for two important reasons. One it involves Substack, just like
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Speaker 3: our writer Con newsletter. And two it involves James Patterson.
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Speaker 3: I know, anytime I have an excuse to mention James Patterson,
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Speaker 3: Jesse will be happy about this. Well, James Patterson has
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Speaker 3: launched a substack newsletter.
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Speaker 6: Has he or have his people doing it?
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Speaker 3: Well? Who? I mean, how would you know at this point?
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Speaker 3: But it's James Patterson unfiltered. This best selling author, who
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Speaker 3: by the way, now has four hundred and eighty million
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Speaker 3: books in print, has decided to launch a substack newsletter
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Speaker 3: called Hungry Dogs. The first issues out I got it.
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Speaker 3: I read it. And the reason Patterson, who is himself
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Speaker 3: seventy seven years old, is now starting a substack is
7:46
Speaker 3: because he's had trouble getting his opinion pieces into major
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Speaker 3: news letters, newspapers rather, and that sometimes he can't say
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Speaker 3: what he wants to say, and he's bumped up against
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Speaker 3: other people with strong viewpoints. And he just wants the
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Speaker 3: idea of, as he says, not having to work for anybody,
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Speaker 3: no editors, no Hollywood producers. I want to do it
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Speaker 3: and do it well and talk about things. Some of
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Speaker 3: his topics it looks like, are going to be book banning.
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Speaker 3: You'll recall he was upset when his book was banned
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Speaker 3: in Florida, just as one of mine was. And he
8:28
Speaker 3: wants to talk about the importance of education, which is terrific.
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Speaker 3: I just can't help but notice that we launched our
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Speaker 3: substack writer con newsletter, and now he's doing one. I mean,
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Speaker 3: is this guy just going to copy everything we do? Jesse?
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Speaker 1: What do you think it's annoying that he keeps copying
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Speaker 1: things and then making more money from it than we are.
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Speaker 6: That's right, He's like that people.
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Speaker 3: You probably got more subscribers the first day than we'll
8:54
Speaker 3: have in our lifetime.
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Speaker 6: But yeah, yeah, Again.
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Speaker 1: While I hate his ghostwriting factor that he has, I do.
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Speaker 1: I am glad if he is going to use his
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Speaker 1: subject to talk about the issues he care about, which
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Speaker 1: are issues I also care about, which is education, book.
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Speaker 6: Banning, whatnot. So good for him in that regard, and
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Speaker 6: I'm glad he's actually writing. That's nice.
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Speaker 3: So I guess if you're wondering about the title hungry Dogs,
9:17
Speaker 3: he says that comes from his grandmother who used to
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Speaker 3: tell him that hungry dogs run faster. It's six bucks
9:25
Speaker 3: a month or fifty for a year. You'll get him
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Speaker 3: opinion pieces. And he's also promising interviews with people like
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Speaker 3: former President Bill Clinton and David Baldacci. We've had him,
9:38
Speaker 3: but we haven't had Clinton. How could we get Clinton
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Speaker 3: on our podcast?
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Speaker 6: That's a good question. He's got emails people, and just hope.
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Speaker 3: Do you have any friends, Laura? Do you know anybody
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Speaker 3: in the Clinton family or anything, or the Patterson family
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Speaker 3: for that matter.
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Speaker 4: Not to my knowledge, I think he.
9:55
Speaker 3: Might all right. And if you, I just don't think
10:01
Speaker 3: that sounds perfect for you. I got to remind you
10:04
Speaker 3: that the writer Gun newsletter, which also contains The writer
10:08
Speaker 3: con magazine is free, so just go to Substack and
10:13
Speaker 3: subscribe and get a wealth of information to help you
10:16
Speaker 3: with your writing career. News story number two, another huge
10:21
Speaker 3: major light, John Grisham has caused some controversy. Let me
10:27
Speaker 3: just say before I even start this story that I
10:30
Speaker 3: slightly know John Grisham. We've worked on a couple of
10:32
Speaker 3: projects together, and I think he is a prince. So
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Speaker 3: in no way is this story intended to be critical. Instead,
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Speaker 3: it's more like a cautionary tale, like a Smoky the
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Speaker 3: Bear announcement or something like that. Here's what's happened. The
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Speaker 3: New York Times and pro publica, the fact checking website,
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Speaker 3: are now asking Grisham to make changes to the attributions
10:59
Speaker 3: and his most recent nonfiction book, which is called Framed
11:04
Speaker 3: Astonishing True Stories of Wrongful Convictions. As some people might know,
11:10
Speaker 3: he's written nonfiction at least once before, An Innocent Man,
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Speaker 3: which was about a case set in Oklahoma which was
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Speaker 3: clearly a wrongful conviction, and he's stayed with that. He
11:22
Speaker 3: serves on boards, he's involved with the innocence projects, so
11:26
Speaker 3: this is a subject he knows about. But the Times
11:29
Speaker 3: and pro public are saying he went too far in
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Speaker 3: his use of their reporting on a murder case in Texas,
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Speaker 3: and they want changes made just to be clear. Nobody's
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Speaker 3: saying plagiarism, nobody's saying libel or any of the things
11:47
Speaker 3: people writers normally get sued for. They, I guess just
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Speaker 3: want more footnotes or more mentioned in the bibliography, although
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Speaker 3: the book does already acknowledge in this case. There is
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Speaker 3: a two part series written by a very well respected
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Speaker 3: criminal justice reporter, Pamela Koloff, who has worked jointly for
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Speaker 3: both The Times and Pro Publica, which is why they're
12:11
Speaker 3: the ones bringing the website. And she reported on the
12:15
Speaker 3: now very disputed conviction of a man named Job Bryan,
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Speaker 3: who is found guilty of his wife's murder in nineteen
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Speaker 3: eighty five, even though there is evidence indicating that he
12:25
Speaker 3: was one hundred and twenty miles away when it took place. Well,
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Speaker 3: Brian died sadly about a month ago, so some of
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Speaker 3: this is academic, but that doesn't address the issue being
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Speaker 3: raised in this website about the book. Let me give
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Speaker 3: you an example. There are several of these, but here's
12:46
Speaker 3: one in Kuloff's original series. Here's the sentence her pink
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Speaker 3: nightgown was drawn up to the top of her thighs,
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Speaker 3: and she was naked from the waist down. But here's
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Speaker 3: the sentence in Grisham's work which basically swaps the two
13:06
Speaker 3: independent clauses. She was naked from the waist down and
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Speaker 3: her pink knock gown was pulled up to her thighs.
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Speaker 3: You see the similarity. I don't think it constitutes plagiarism,
13:19
Speaker 3: which people normally define on three or four or more
13:22
Speaker 3: words the same. They've changed the words a little, and
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Speaker 3: they've reversed the order of the clauses. But obviously the
13:30
Speaker 3: author of version two saw version one. So Laura, of
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Speaker 3: course I would go to you for a legal opinion
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Speaker 3: because that just makes sense. Do you think John Grisham
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Speaker 3: has done anything wrong here?
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Speaker 6: Oof?
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Speaker 4: So I actually have to discuss plagiarism in class that
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Speaker 4: I teach, and I mean in addition to when we
13:59
Speaker 4: present to writers at conferences. But I'm not going to
14:07
Speaker 4: say wrong. I do think it is the complaint that
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Speaker 4: that wasn't properly quoted and attributed to something else.
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Speaker 3: So that's a good question because I was looking into
14:19
Speaker 3: that when I prepared this story, and all I can
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Speaker 3: see is that they're asking in changes to attribution. And
14:27
Speaker 3: now I am speaking as a lawyer, I mean that's
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Speaker 3: not even a cause of action. You can sue somebody
14:31
Speaker 3: for plagiarism, you can sue somebody for libel, but inadequate attribution,
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Speaker 3: I'm not sure that's even a thing. Maybe they're saying
14:41
Speaker 3: he exceeded fair use, but I don't know of anybody
14:46
Speaker 3: whoever said, well, you need to mention us more in
14:49
Speaker 3: the bibliography or add more footnotes or something.
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Speaker 4: I saw something that similar in a paper that I
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Speaker 4: was graded. I would probably direct the student to do
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Speaker 4: better job of quoting, you know, putting it in quotes.
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Speaker 3: And yeah, make it a quote.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, exactly make it a quote, and then indicate
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Speaker 4: where it came from in your work side and your references.
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Speaker 3: So well, that wasn't the only example, but that's by
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Speaker 3: way of, you know, just to toss one out there. Jesse,
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Speaker 3: what are your thoughts on this?
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Speaker 1: I mean, if you're gonna use somebody's material, research, whatever
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Speaker 1: as a source, you have to you know, one, there
15:32
Speaker 1: are like ap whatever rules for how to source things.
15:37
Speaker 1: But also like make it clear that you did that
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Speaker 1: and that you're not stealing it, that you're using it
15:43
Speaker 1: as inspiration, that's what like, you know, author's intros are
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Speaker 1: for and whatnot.
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Speaker 6: So it feels like it's.
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Speaker 1: One of the things where he just didn't do enough
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Speaker 1: giving credit to people and is now just getting defensive
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Speaker 1: because people are attacking you all right, as we all do.
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Speaker 3: So here's the smoky the Bear PSA that I'm sending
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Speaker 3: out all the writers listening to this, because you know,
16:07
Speaker 3: when you're writing nonfiction you have to dig up facts.
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Speaker 3: And that's basically Grisham's response. He's saying, what we reported
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Speaker 3: or facts. Nobody owns facts, and that's true. I know
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Speaker 3: it can be frustrating for nonfiction writers who may spend
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Speaker 3: six months digging up a fact only to see somebody
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Speaker 3: else repeat it. That's frustrating. But whether you discovered the
16:30
Speaker 3: fact or not, you still don't own it. But here's
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Speaker 3: what you should do. Writers, don't copy. Make it your own.
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Speaker 3: Sometimes people think, well, if I change every sixth word
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Speaker 3: or you know, flip the clauses, that makes it your own.
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Speaker 3: It doesn't. You've got a big vocabulary, rewrite it and
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Speaker 3: make it your own. And for heaven's sake, when you're
16:50
Speaker 3: making your bibliography, be generous, err on the side of inclusiveness.
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Speaker 3: Inclusiveness right, Okay, Well, today in corner we have Desiree Duffy,
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Speaker 3: a longtime friend of this podcast. She's Got She of
17:06
Speaker 3: course runs Black Chateau and Books That Make You. She
17:10
Speaker 3: is the go to expert on the subject of bookmarketing marketing,
17:15
Speaker 3: and since we're rapidly approaching the new year, she's going
17:19
Speaker 3: to offer some tips on marketing your book in the
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Speaker 3: coming year. In the new year, take it away, Desiree.
17:29
Speaker 2: Craft quarter.
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Speaker 5: When people ask me what is the number one thing
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Speaker 5: that I can do marketing wise to ensure the success
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Speaker 5: of my book, I tell them, write a good one.
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Speaker 5: Here's the deal. The secret to your books marketing success
17:48
Speaker 5: is crafting and engaging page turning, well written, captivating story
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Speaker 5: or idea, whether it be fiction or nonfiction. That's what
17:58
Speaker 5: sets your book up for marketing success. I often say
18:03
Speaker 5: I can lead a horse to water, but I can't
18:06
Speaker 5: make them drink. Marketing can lead people to your book,
18:10
Speaker 5: but if it doesn't grab them, nothing that I do
18:14
Speaker 5: will make them buy it. Here are the key points
18:18
Speaker 5: to making sure your book is engaging right from the beginning.
18:23
Speaker 5: First of all, that first chapter. Heck, I actually like
18:27
Speaker 5: to work it backward. The first page, the first paragraph,
18:32
Speaker 5: all the way to that very first sentence needs to
18:35
Speaker 5: make them want to keep reading on. If they don't,
18:39
Speaker 5: why would they want to buy your book? The description,
18:43
Speaker 5: what they read when they flip around to the back
18:46
Speaker 5: cover or the Amazon description or any retail description. That's
18:51
Speaker 5: also the key to making them want to grab that copy. Punchy,
18:57
Speaker 5: poignant descriptions that answer the question what will I get
19:03
Speaker 5: out of this book? That's what you're going for. We
19:07
Speaker 5: are human beings, and as human beings, we are all
19:11
Speaker 5: a little bit selfish. We always want to know what's
19:14
Speaker 5: in it for me, and that's what you need to
19:17
Speaker 5: convey to your potential reader. The other thing the cover.
19:21
Speaker 5: The title, adhering to genre expectations, the look and the
19:26
Speaker 5: feel should promise the reader something as well. Don't go
19:30
Speaker 5: against genre expectations, or if you do, do so at
19:34
Speaker 5: your own risk. You don't want to confuse the reader.
19:38
Speaker 5: And above all else, please be professional in your cover design,
19:42
Speaker 5: especially if you're an indie author or self publishing. Here's
19:47
Speaker 5: what you can do. Assess your book, just like the
19:50
Speaker 5: reader does. What happens when you hold up your book.
19:54
Speaker 5: How does that title, the cover design, that back cover
19:59
Speaker 5: description or maybe any blurbs, the author bio. What does
20:03
Speaker 5: that convey to the reader? What's to tell them about?
20:07
Speaker 5: What is in it for them when they flip to
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Speaker 5: that first chapter and begin reading. What keeps them hooked
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Speaker 5: from beginning to end? To make them want to keep
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Speaker 5: reading and therefore by your book. I'm Desiree Duffy, founder
20:23
Speaker 5: of black Chat told the Book Fest and Books that
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Speaker 5: Make You. Thank you to William Bernhardt and writer Con
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Speaker 5: for inviting me to share this for you and for
20:32
Speaker 5: everything that you do for the writing community.
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Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Desiree. Now let's talk to Toddfernsdot Todd,
20:48
Speaker 3: Welcome to the podcast.
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Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, thanks for having me.
20:53
Speaker 3: Thanks for being here. Okay, traditional first question, if you
20:56
Speaker 3: could offer writers one piece of advice, what we be?
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Speaker 2: Gosh? I think if I had just one piece of advice,
21:05
Speaker 2: I would say, right, I know that that seems really
21:09
Speaker 2: really basic, but it seems to me that, you know,
21:13
Speaker 2: after having done this for decades, the thing that I
21:16
Speaker 2: have to keep coming back to to remind myself that
21:19
Speaker 2: is the most important is sit down and do the work.
21:21
Speaker 2: Just sit down and do the work. When you hate
21:24
Speaker 2: what you're doing, sit down and do the work. When
21:26
Speaker 2: you love what you're doing, sit down and do the work.
21:28
Speaker 2: And I think the more you do that, the better
21:32
Speaker 2: you're gonna get. I have a great story on that.
21:36
Speaker 2: You wanted to tell you this really quick anecdote. Okay,
21:38
Speaker 2: So once I was listening to Jodie Thomas, who's this
21:40
Speaker 2: fantastic author, and she was talking about how, uh, sometimes
21:45
Speaker 2: the Muse is singing to you right and you're just like,
21:47
Speaker 2: you know everything's coming and you're writing, brilliance is just
21:51
Speaker 2: all flowing from your fingertips, and sometimes it feels like
21:54
Speaker 2: you're just mucking out a horse stall. It's like everything
21:57
Speaker 2: is horrible. And she said that at one point she
22:00
Speaker 2: decided that she was going to just keep writing through
22:05
Speaker 2: the horse stall mucking process as well as the angel singing,
22:09
Speaker 2: and then when she got done after two months, she
22:11
Speaker 2: was just going to go back and remove all the
22:13
Speaker 2: bad stuff. And she said what she discovered was she
22:16
Speaker 2: went back and she couldn't find the bad stuff. So
22:20
Speaker 2: her takeaway from that was your writing skill goes on
22:24
Speaker 2: an angle like this. If you keep writing, it will
22:26
Speaker 2: keep getting better and better and better. Your emotions about
22:29
Speaker 2: your writing go like this. So so my advice is
22:36
Speaker 2: just write, get back to the keyboard, and keep writing.
22:39
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's great advice. Okay, you worked a lot of
22:43
Speaker 3: jobs before you got to publishing stories or books I did.
22:50
Speaker 3: Here's the one that stood out for me. You were
22:51
Speaker 3: a video arcade manager in Durngo. I only mentioned this
22:56
Speaker 3: because Laura and I go to Durango almost every year.
22:59
Speaker 3: We've got a family cabin out there. But where's the
23:02
Speaker 3: video arcade?
23:04
Speaker 2: Well, you have to remember we're talking ancient history. I mean,
23:07
Speaker 2: you say video game video arcade attendant. I mean, come on,
23:10
Speaker 2: how long has it been since we've had video arcades
23:13
Speaker 2: at all? Right, So this was back Gosh, when was
23:17
Speaker 2: that nineteen ninety I want to say, so it was
23:21
Speaker 2: in the It was in the Durango mall out there
23:24
Speaker 2: in Bodo Park or what was once?
23:25
Speaker 3: And I know what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, you
23:27
Speaker 3: have to have a cool sheet music shop.
23:29
Speaker 6: I love that, But I love that mall.
23:32
Speaker 2: That was like, clearly it was my favorite mall. I
23:34
Speaker 2: was an attendant there and so yeah, it was Bally's
23:36
Speaker 2: Aladdin's Castle and I came in as this little neophyte.
23:40
Speaker 2: That was actually, interestingly, where I first was recommended reading
23:45
Speaker 2: Enders Game by Orson Scott Card, which is my favorite
23:47
Speaker 2: novel of all time. I love that novel, and that
23:51
Speaker 2: was where I first picked it up. And I learned
23:53
Speaker 2: how to play cyberball, which you know, those of you
23:55
Speaker 2: who play Call of Duty and all these new fangled
23:58
Speaker 2: you know, Assassin's Creed. I probably have never even heard
24:01
Speaker 2: of cyberball. But one of my greatest accomplishments is that
24:05
Speaker 2: I went in, I watched this guy who was an
24:07
Speaker 2: expert cyberball player, and I worked there for six months,
24:11
Speaker 2: and by the time I left on my last day,
24:13
Speaker 2: this guy, who was a college student locally came back
24:16
Speaker 2: into play and played me, and I beat him by
24:18
Speaker 2: like three points.
24:19
Speaker 1: It was.
24:20
Speaker 2: It was one of the greatest victories.
24:21
Speaker 3: Of my whole life. Sounds well, and I know you
24:26
Speaker 3: love board games too, but we'll get to that in
24:28
Speaker 3: just a second.
24:30
Speaker 4: Were you thinking about writing back then, when you were
24:33
Speaker 4: that long ago? How long you wanted to be a writer?
24:38
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, so that would have been when I was
24:41
Speaker 2: twenty and I started my very first novel when I
24:43
Speaker 2: was eighteen years old. I yeah, I was in I
24:47
Speaker 2: was in my It was my independent study class in
24:50
Speaker 2: my senior year of high school. And I loved reading
24:53
Speaker 2: fantasy novels as a big Terry Brooks fan still am,
24:56
Speaker 2: of course, you know Peers, Anthony, Margaret Weiss, and Tracy
25:02
Speaker 2: Hickman dragonlance novels. I loved all of that stuff, and
25:05
Speaker 2: even through that, I was like, I want to write
25:07
Speaker 2: a fantasy novel with more action in it.
25:10
Speaker 6: That was my thing.
25:11
Speaker 2: I wanted more action in my fantasy novel. And it's
25:14
Speaker 2: interesting that now brand, My brand is Edge of your
25:18
Speaker 2: Seat epic Fantasy, so I clearly I stuck to that.
25:21
Speaker 2: That was something that was important to me back then,
25:23
Speaker 2: still important to me now.
25:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, fantastic. So now you've written a book called Falling
25:29
Speaker 3: to Fly, right, Yes, that's nonfiction. Tell us about that.
25:33
Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's this. I've got one right in front
25:35
Speaker 2: of me here, this one right here, the book to
25:38
Speaker 2: read before you give up on your writing dream, and
25:40
Speaker 2: essentially a great story about this book. It's not like
25:43
Speaker 2: the other how to writing books out there. It was
25:46
Speaker 2: supposed to be, and I utterly failed to write writing
25:49
Speaker 2: how to book, which I think goes really well with
25:52
Speaker 2: the title Falling to Fly essentially this story I was
25:56
Speaker 2: supposed to be everything I knew about constructing story and
25:59
Speaker 2: writing story, and I was putting it together. But one
26:01
Speaker 2: of my favorite writing how two books is Stephen King's
26:05
Speaker 2: On Writing and he starts off like it's split into
26:08
Speaker 2: two components. On writing is Stephen King's thing. The first
26:13
Speaker 2: one is what he calls his CV, and the second
26:15
Speaker 2: one is what he calls his toolbox. And the first
26:18
Speaker 2: one is all these anecdotes from his life that talk about,
26:21
Speaker 2: you know, how he came to be the writer that
26:23
Speaker 2: he is. And he starts off by saying, this is
26:25
Speaker 2: not an autobiography and then proceeds to write an autobiography.
26:29
Speaker 2: I thought that was a really slick, like He's like,
26:31
Speaker 2: this is not an ot of our this is my CV,
26:32
Speaker 2: this is my curriculum of to day and it yeah,
26:35
Speaker 2: and it was totally an autobiography, but you know, but
26:39
Speaker 2: I really I love that part of it the most.
26:40
Speaker 2: So I wanted to tell what I knew about writing
26:43
Speaker 2: in stories, and so these anecdotes from my life and
26:46
Speaker 2: when I learned how to you know, stick to it
26:49
Speaker 2: when it comes to writing and get my butt in
26:50
Speaker 2: the chair and write. When I learned to create character
26:53
Speaker 2: arcs when I learned to, you know, appreciate other people's
27:00
Speaker 2: structures like Save the Cat, right, So I started off
27:03
Speaker 2: with that in mind, and what it ended up being
27:05
Speaker 2: was more of an inspirational I go into. I mean
27:10
Speaker 2: it's like, have you ever read Kitchen Confidential by Anthony
27:12
Speaker 2: Bourdain where he kind of goes behind the scenes of
27:15
Speaker 2: his progress as a as a cook. Well, anyways, if
27:17
Speaker 2: you haven't, you should read. It's a fabulous book. But
27:21
Speaker 2: this is like Kitchen Confidential for the publishing industry. I
27:24
Speaker 2: talk about all of my failures, Yeah, all of my successes,
27:27
Speaker 2: all the places I fell on my face. I mean
27:29
Speaker 2: it really is ninety percent me falling on my face
27:31
Speaker 2: in this book, which I think people appreciate, right, I
27:34
Speaker 2: mean like fly exactly. So that's what it ended up being.
27:39
Speaker 2: And I almost scrapped the project. I almost threw it
27:43
Speaker 2: away because it was nothing like what I wanted. And
27:45
Speaker 2: my assistant, the wonderful Beca Gardner, she was like, what
27:49
Speaker 2: what are you talking about. I'm like, well, this didn't
27:51
Speaker 2: end up the way that I wanted it to be,
27:52
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna scrap this project. I'm gonna pull maybe
27:55
Speaker 2: thirty percent of it and use it. She's like no,
27:57
Speaker 2: and that was the first time she'd ever gone no,
28:00
Speaker 2: And I was like, what what do you mean No.
28:02
Speaker 2: She's like, no, no, no, No, this is exactly what it
28:04
Speaker 2: needs to be. This book is the book that every
28:06
Speaker 2: reader or every writer needs to read. I'm like, no,
28:09
Speaker 2: it's a scrubby, crappy version of what I was trying
28:12
Speaker 2: to do. She's like, yeah, but you did something different.
28:15
Speaker 2: You did something you weren't expecting to do, but it's
28:18
Speaker 2: so so impactful to me. Now here's what I want
28:22
Speaker 2: you to do. She's like, I tell you what if
28:24
Speaker 2: you think I'm wrong, and I think I'm right, Let's
28:25
Speaker 2: get together six of your super fans. We'll get them
28:27
Speaker 2: on a zoom call, and we'll put you on the
28:29
Speaker 2: zoom call, but you will be muted and your screen
28:31
Speaker 2: will be blacked out. You don't get to respond, and
28:33
Speaker 2: we get to have them read it before they get
28:35
Speaker 2: on the call and then talk about it. And she
28:37
Speaker 2: did that, and every single one of them loved it.
28:39
Speaker 2: And that was the first time I've ever been like, Okay,
28:42
Speaker 2: I guess I'll keep it and the rest is history.
28:45
Speaker 3: So yeah, that's a partner you need to keep forever
28:49
Speaker 3: for sure. Now we got to talk about your fiction
28:52
Speaker 3: because you've been such a phenomenally successful fiction writer. You've
28:56
Speaker 3: just released your fifth book in the Eldros fantasy series
29:02
Speaker 3: and it's not even your first series, right, No tell
29:04
Speaker 3: us about the new book though.
29:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the new one is this book here, Bane
29:09
Speaker 2: of Giants. I'm not sure if that's actually focusing up
29:11
Speaker 2: on that, but whatever, you can see it. Yeah, okay,
29:13
Speaker 2: So Bane of Giants is the fifth and final in
29:16
Speaker 2: the Eldress Legacy Legacy of Shadows storyline. Now, Eldros Legacy
29:21
Speaker 2: is this fantastic collective where we pulled four different founding
29:26
Speaker 2: authors and about ten other cohort authors to write in
29:30
Speaker 2: this world. There were five different content continents. Four of
29:33
Speaker 2: them were founded by the four founders, and then the
29:36
Speaker 2: cohort authors chose which continents they wanted to write it.
29:38
Speaker 2: And it's this big kind of collaborative project. And my
29:43
Speaker 2: story is the first one to be completed in its entirety,
29:46
Speaker 2: and the other stories are still in progress right now.
29:48
Speaker 2: So that's what Eldross Legacy is. And the first book
29:53
Speaker 2: in eld In my storyline of Eldros Legacy starts with
29:57
Speaker 2: kaivin The Unkillable and and it's just this fantastic sword
30:02
Speaker 2: and sorcery romp through a world that used to be
30:06
Speaker 2: ruled by these fifteen foot tall, highly intelligent, highly magical
30:11
Speaker 2: giants until about two thousand years ago when humans learned
30:17
Speaker 2: how to use magic and overthrew their overlords. Well, the
30:22
Speaker 2: giants fifty percent of them were killed, fifty percent of
30:24
Speaker 2: them fled and magically vanished. And the story opens up
30:28
Speaker 2: when they've decided it's time for them to take back
30:31
Speaker 2: their world. And so this group of heroes, this group
30:34
Speaker 2: of five sort of dungeons and dragon style heroes. We've
30:37
Speaker 2: got a warrior, a rogue, a ranger, a paladin, and
30:40
Speaker 2: a magic user that are all from different walks of
30:42
Speaker 2: life come together to stop the end of the world.
30:46
Speaker 2: So that's the beginning of the Eldress Legacy, and Bane
30:50
Speaker 2: of Giants is the culmination of that storyline.
30:53
Speaker 3: Fantastic.
30:55
Speaker 4: Now, what does a typical writing day look like for you?
31:00
Speaker 2: Us?
31:01
Speaker 4: Yeah?
31:01
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Well, do you want me to tell you what
31:03
Speaker 2: the typical ideal writing day is for me or what
31:06
Speaker 2: is an actual typical Okay.
31:09
Speaker 4: Would also differ, but I think it's inspirational for our listeners,
31:14
Speaker 4: many of them are aspiring writers, to hear what it's really.
31:17
Speaker 2: Like outstanding well. So today I got up. I walked
31:22
Speaker 2: five miles in the snow. That's part of my routine.
31:27
Speaker 2: I kind of clear my head. I start thinking about ideas.
31:30
Speaker 2: I talk with my assistant. She's very good when it
31:33
Speaker 2: comes to bouncing ideas off of her, and I help
31:35
Speaker 2: her with any questions she has about her writing that
31:38
Speaker 2: she's starting to take off. You watch Becka Lee Gardner
31:41
Speaker 2: is going to be one of the people on this
31:42
Speaker 2: podcast pretty soon. Keep an eye on her. Anyways. Then
31:46
Speaker 2: I got back. I did twenty minute hit workout, high
31:50
Speaker 2: intensity interval training workout, then showered, have my breakfast, watched
31:55
Speaker 2: about a quarter of a movie. I try and get
31:57
Speaker 2: my brain in the mode of storytelling, so I always
31:59
Speaker 2: watch movies while I'm making breakfasts, which is usually broccoli, mushrooms, onions,
32:04
Speaker 2: and an egg. That's that's kind of my breakfast routine.
32:07
Speaker 2: And then I came up and I started editing on
32:11
Speaker 2: one of my audio books, which I'm the voice talent
32:14
Speaker 2: for most of my audio books, and I need to
32:17
Speaker 2: get this one edited very soon. So I edited a
32:19
Speaker 2: couple chapters on that. Then I recorded a couple chapters
32:22
Speaker 2: on a different book that I'm working on, and then
32:25
Speaker 2: I wrote my newsletter, which went out about fifteen minutes ago.
32:29
Speaker 2: So that's then I went shopping because you know, I'm
32:32
Speaker 2: the stay at home part of.
32:34
Speaker 3: It, not the only ones who work on Sunday.
32:37
Speaker 2: Yes, so yeah, that's pretty much that I came home.
32:41
Speaker 4: Yeah, so the so the writing part would you would
32:45
Speaker 4: you say that you are a panther or a planner?
32:48
Speaker 4: It sounds like maybe today was not a writing day
32:51
Speaker 4: that you were doing other part of your author business work,
32:55
Speaker 4: which we totally understand. But when you are gearing up
32:59
Speaker 4: to write in a book, are you a panser or
33:02
Speaker 4: are you a planner?
33:04
Speaker 2: Okay, so I'm a diide in the wool pantser. However,
33:07
Speaker 2: I have spent a lot of time and effort to
33:10
Speaker 2: understand different kinds of plotting techniques just so that you know.
33:15
Speaker 2: I think it's important to know everything right, whether you
33:18
Speaker 2: choose to use it or not. The more you know,
33:19
Speaker 2: the better off you're gonna be. So yeah, I'm what
33:23
Speaker 2: my assistant calls a tsunami writer, which I have tried
33:27
Speaker 2: my whole life to be more of like a I'm
33:29
Speaker 2: gonna get up, I'm gonna write one thousand, three hundred
33:31
Speaker 2: and twenty five words, And tomorrow I'm gonna get up
33:33
Speaker 2: and I'm gona write one thousand, three hundred and twenty five.
33:35
Speaker 2: I can't do that. Like I get up and I
33:36
Speaker 2: will write a thousand words. That's that's like my baseline goal.
33:40
Speaker 2: And most often I'll hit fifteen hundred, two thousand. Sometimes
33:43
Speaker 2: when I'm getting close to the end of the book,
33:45
Speaker 2: I will hit six thousand, seven thousand, eight thousand words
33:48
Speaker 2: in a day, depending on how deep in the project
33:50
Speaker 2: I am. But probably I don't know. There are probably
33:54
Speaker 2: some writers out there who have the perfect system. This
33:56
Speaker 2: is not the perfect system for me. I keep trying
33:58
Speaker 2: to get better at it, and I keep trying to
34:01
Speaker 2: up my game. But generally speaking, I write about fifteen
34:04
Speaker 2: hundred words a day, even on Saturdays and Sundays, but
34:08
Speaker 2: just today I haven't quite gotten around to it. Usually
34:10
Speaker 2: I write in the morning, but maybe today it's going
34:11
Speaker 2: to be in the evening.
34:12
Speaker 6: Good be.
34:15
Speaker 3: Speaking as somebody who's interviewed a lot of writers now
34:19
Speaker 3: with this podcast, No, I don't think there is a
34:22
Speaker 3: perfect writer with a perfect day out there. Anywhere.
34:25
Speaker 4: The perfect writing system is the one that works for you.
34:28
Speaker 3: H There you go.
34:29
Speaker 4: We have to be flexible because life happens and other
34:33
Speaker 4: work might take our attention away for a little bit,
34:36
Speaker 4: and the important thing is to keep coming back to it.
34:39
Speaker 3: Right, absolutely, Todd. We have to wrap this up. One
34:42
Speaker 3: last question, what's next? You're ending El DROs and done
34:47
Speaker 3: the nonfiction. Why do we look forward to in the future.
34:50
Speaker 2: Well, I have fans clamoring for more Tower of the Four.
34:54
Speaker 2: That was a series I started before I got into
34:56
Speaker 2: the Eldress Legacy project, and then the Eldress Legacy just
35:00
Speaker 2: took me away. It just swept me away, and I
35:01
Speaker 2: did five books in a row on that series. So
35:04
Speaker 2: now I'm coming back. I just finished the third and
35:06
Speaker 2: the fourth and final in that series. I'm gonna try
35:09
Speaker 2: and get a rough draft hammered out before the end
35:11
Speaker 2: of the year. We'll see how that goes. So that's
35:14
Speaker 2: my project that I'm working on next.
35:18
Speaker 3: Sounds fantastic. Well, thank you so much for being on
35:21
Speaker 3: the podcast.
35:22
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. This is a blast.
35:38
Speaker 3: Just a few parting words. Since I've already mentioned the newsletter,
35:42
Speaker 3: I should remind you again the writer Con has its
35:45
Speaker 3: own free newsletter which comes out every month, sometimes several
35:50
Speaker 3: times a month, and occasionally contains the writer Con magazine
35:55
Speaker 3: as a free add on. Plus, I sometimes put the
35:58
Speaker 3: podcast in there and the wealth of information before we
36:04
Speaker 3: have time to get it into a podcast or on
36:06
Speaker 3: the writer con Facebook groups. And it's free. So go
36:10
Speaker 3: to substack search for writer conmag dot com, writer conmag
36:17
Speaker 3: dot substack dot com. I'll put it in the show notes.
36:21
Speaker 3: That's how you sign up. Let me also remember remind
36:24
Speaker 3: you since we're in December now, there are some Christmas
36:28
Speaker 3: books other than the ones we mentioned before that you
36:30
Speaker 3: might want to take a look at. I wrote a
36:33
Speaker 3: Christmas novel a few years back called The Midnight Before Christmas,
36:37
Speaker 3: and it's one of my favorite books that I've ever written.
36:40
Speaker 3: Last year, I contributed to an anthology called Christmas Tapestry,
36:45
Speaker 3: which I thought was wonderful because each of the contributing
36:50
Speaker 3: authors did a Christmas story with their series characters. So
36:54
Speaker 3: I've got a Kinsey Rivera story in there, and the
36:57
Speaker 3: others are using their series characters. Laura, You've got a
37:00
Speaker 3: Christmas book too, don't you.
37:02
Speaker 4: Christmas Spirit yep.
37:04
Speaker 3: Part of the Wantland Follil series.
37:06
Speaker 2: It is.
37:07
Speaker 4: It's book five, but if you start reading now, you're
37:10
Speaker 4: sure to be able to at that by Christmas.
37:13
Speaker 3: Whip through one through four so that you can do
37:16
Speaker 3: five in time for Christmas. Absolutely all right, until next time, everybody,
37:21
Speaker 3: keep writing and remember you cannot fail if you refused
37:26
Speaker 3: to quit. Bye bye