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Why our defensive spy boss is on high alert · The Front

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: It's Tuesday May six, twenty twenty six. Cracks are showing
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: in the federal government's budget already, as Anthony Albanezi talks
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: up carve outs from the unpopular changes to capital gains tax.
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: The government will try to push the measures through Parliament
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: this week. You can follow that evolving yarn live at
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: the Australian dot com dot Au. Intelligence agencies couldn't have
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: prevented the Bondi attack even if they had more money.
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: That's according to azo's boss Mike Burgess. He says we're
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: on the brink of the highest possible terrorist threat alert
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: and is investigating more suspected Iranian hits on Australian soil. Today.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: What we're learning as the Anti Semitism Royal Commission drills
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: into the security services. Ellie Dudley is The Australian's National
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: Chief of Staff and like me, she's been watching the
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Royal Commission into Social Cohesion and Anti Semitism start its
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: second block of hearings in Sydney on Monday. Ellie, I
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: think most of the security agencies who are watching this
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: live stream and they're all glued to it. Of course,
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: will have been quite relieved by what Senior Council Richard
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Lancaster said in his opening on Monday, which is that
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: this was a surprise attack, as in, no one's to blame.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: No one missed this coming.
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  Speaker 2: There is no evidence that any intelligence agency or law
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: enforcement agency had any actual knowledge or specific information to
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: suggest that there might be an armed attack on the
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Harneker celebration at Bonda in fourteen December twenty twenty five.
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  Speaker 1: Was that a surprise to hear that from Richard Lancaster.
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  Speaker 3: I don't think it was necessarily surprised because it was
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  Speaker 3: limited to No one knew that these two alleged terrorists
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: were going to attack this specific Heineker event on Bon
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: Dai Beach on December fourteenth.
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  Speaker 4: It is Australia's worst shooting massacre since Port Arthur, and
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  Speaker 4: it began at this world famous landmark where the Jewish
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: community came under attack. Fifteen innocent people died in the
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: shooting rampage. One gunman also killed. Forty two people were injured.
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  Speaker 4: The men who carried out this atrocity a father and son.
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  Speaker 4: The victims include a ten year old girl to rabbis
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  Speaker 4: and a Holocaust survivor who had gathered here to mark
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: the first night of Harneker.
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  Speaker 3: We've seen news reporting on news reporting of what intelligence
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: agencies did know about the Akrams, about Navite and sagd Akram.
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  Speaker 3: But what Richard Lancaster was saying was that this specific
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  Speaker 3: event was a surprise.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. He went through some evidence that CSG, the Community
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: Security Group, which is the Jewish community group which provides
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: security outside synagogues and so on, had alerted New South
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: Wales Police to this particular event, had requested a police presence.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: There's been reporting in days leading up to this that
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  Speaker 1: there had been heavier police presence at that particular event
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  Speaker 1: in previous years. So there's a suggestion there which is
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: going to be explored that New South Wales Police had
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: not staffed it as heavily as they had previously. That
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: was one of eight things that Richard Lancaster said are
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: going to be uncovered in this hearing block. There were
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: several other pieces of evidence that he said will come out.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: Second, New South Wales Police decided not to provide a
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  Speaker 2: static presence for the duration of the Bondai event, but
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  Speaker 2: police officers were instructed to attend the event from time
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  Speaker 2: to time during the evening. Third, at the time the
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  Speaker 2: shooting began, there were four police officers at Archer Park.
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  Speaker 1: Fourth that within twenty nine seconds of the start of
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  Speaker 1: the shooting, eleven people were shot, ten of them fatally.
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  Speaker 1: Fifth that three police officers were shortened injured. Six that
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: within five minutes there were eleven officers on the scene.
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  Speaker 2: Seventh, the first shooter was shot and killed, then the
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  Speaker 2: second shooter was shot and apprehended around seven minutes and
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  Speaker 2: forty one seconds after the start of the shooting. Eighth,
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  Speaker 2: specialist police commands were deployed to Bondai, though the detail
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  Speaker 2: of the timing and conduct of those specialist commands will
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: not be addressed in public hearing.
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  Speaker 1: That's interesting, isn't it. It's not clear whether he's talking
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  Speaker 1: about whether tactical police were deployed after or before the
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: shooting began. You'd have to think after, right, yeah, I.
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  Speaker 3: Think you would have to think afterwards. And what was
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  Speaker 3: so striking to me about those eight things that he
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  Speaker 3: indicated would be investigated as part of this Royal commission
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  Speaker 3: was that within seconds ten people were shot dead. And
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  Speaker 3: so it might sound like seven minutes or however a
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  Speaker 3: long it was before the police officers rocked up his
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  Speaker 3: quite a fast response time. But if they weren't right
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  Speaker 3: there then and there, then those people's lives were never
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: going to be said. This is the second book of
• 5:02
  Speaker 3: hearings that we've got from the Anti Semitism Royal Commission,
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  Speaker 3: and these are going into the agencies and security surrounding
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  Speaker 3: the Bondai terror attack, and a lot of it is
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  Speaker 3: going to be done in closed hearings or is going
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  Speaker 3: to be suppressed, just as we saw as part of
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  Speaker 3: that interim report that was handed down by Virginia Bell.
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  Speaker 1: Just last month.
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  Speaker 3: And so what do you make of that? Clear that
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  Speaker 3: a lot of these hearings are going to be done privately,
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  Speaker 3: not open to the public, and I guess not available
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  Speaker 3: to scrutiny.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I can see why. Of course, there are going
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  Speaker 1: to be certain matters, particularly relating to the forthcoming trial
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: of Navida a Crum, that can't be heard in the
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  Speaker 1: public domain. But I think if I were Virginia Bell,
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  Speaker 1: I would want the bare minimum to be heard in
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  Speaker 1: closed door hearings. The power that Virginia Bell has is
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: these public hearings. She can write a report with forty
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: recommendations in it, and they could be ignored or they
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: could only be implemented. In part, a royal commission is
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  Speaker 1: all about the public hearings. That's where a Royal commissioner
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  Speaker 1: can actually influence public debate and can put the pressure
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: on politicians to enact her recommendations when they eventually come.
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  Speaker 1: I'm interested to know what you thought about Mike Burgess's
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  Speaker 1: demeanor in his public appearance on Monday. He seemed a
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: little defensive to me. He was a very good public servant.
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: On Monday, he came through and defended Asio with all
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: of his might. There was criticism in the interim report
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  Speaker 3: that Asia was underfunded and wasn't aptly prepared for counter
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  Speaker 3: terrorism threats, and he said the data and the report
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  Speaker 3: was correct, but he didn't think that that was an issue,
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  Speaker 3: and that they were amply ready to respond to any
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  Speaker 3: counter terror attack, which fit in quite nicely with Richard
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  Speaker 3: Lancaster saying that the Bondai terror attack was a surprise
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  Speaker 3: event and nobody could have seen it coming.
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  Speaker 5: And of course, even if we had identified that we
• 6:47
  Speaker 5: needed more resources, the very nature of our recruitment and
• 6:50
  Speaker 5: clearance process would have seen a twelve month lag before
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  Speaker 5: those resources came on board. But again I fall back on,
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  Speaker 5: at no time did we have serious matters that we
• 6:59
  Speaker 5: knew about that we were leaving untreated, because that is
• 7:01
  Speaker 5: the important measure for me in terms of the effectiveness
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  Speaker 5: of the security services.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, he has to say that, really doesn't he. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: he's a senior public servant appointed by the federal government
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: at the pleasure of the Prime Minister. Really, he could
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  Speaker 1: hardly get into the witness box and say, well, we
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: could have prevented this if ID mean we'd had a
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: bit more money. Yeah, of course.
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  Speaker 3: And he also said that even if they were to
• 7:23
  Speaker 3: put more money towards counter terror operations within Azio than
• 7:27
  Speaker 3: they would have had to take money from somewhere else.
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: So I guess he had that sort of defense in
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: his back pocket as well. Something interesting that I thought
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  Speaker 3: that he said. He spoke a lot about the upgrading
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  Speaker 3: and the downgrading of what the terror threat level is
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  Speaker 3: in Australia and he said, now it's escalating.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Further and further.
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  Speaker 3: We're at the top end of probable when the next
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: stage that you enter into is expected and you can't
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  Speaker 3: enter into expected until there is a known terror plot,
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  Speaker 3: and so he was basically hinting that we're as close
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: to expected as we can get. Yeah.
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  Speaker 1: He said that the definition of possible is there's a
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  Speaker 1: fifty percent chance that someone will advocate or enact a
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  Speaker 1: terror plot within the forthcoming twelve months. It had been
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  Speaker 1: at probable during the rise of ISIS in the late
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  Speaker 1: twenty tens through to twenty twenty two. It was then
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  Speaker 1: lowered to possible, and then after the Harmas attack on
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  Speaker 1: Israel on October seven, twenty twenty three. In twenty twenty four,
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  Speaker 1: it came back up to probable, which is where it
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  Speaker 1: remains now. He was interesting talking about that her mass
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  Speaker 1: attack wasn't He seemed quite firm on what I thought
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  Speaker 1: was his view that the October nine demonstration at the
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  Speaker 1: Opera House in Sydney had allowed a level of antisemitism
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  Speaker 1: to be expressed. That was then he said left.
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  Speaker 5: Arm checks were therefore normalized and gave more permission for
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  Speaker 5: violence through late twenty three and through twenty four to
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  Speaker 5: August when we raised it, and that was a concern
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  Speaker 5: to us. In that environment where violence is more permissible,
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  Speaker 5: of course, it can go through to politically motor violence
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  Speaker 5: or promotion communal violence, and Jewish Australians were on the
• 9:02
  Speaker 5: receiving end of that.
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  Speaker 1: To me, that's a critique of probably the New South
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  Speaker 1: Wales police for not having made any arrests on that day.
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  Speaker 1: How did you interpret that?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, I interpreted it the same, and I thought it
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  Speaker 3: was interesting and probably quite coveting for the Jewish community
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  Speaker 3: to hear that being said, because that's what they've been
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  Speaker 3: screaming about for three years now. Those scenes that we
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: saw on the opera steps on October nine, of flags
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  Speaker 3: being burned and people chanting terrible anti Semitic slurs are
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  Speaker 3: something that Jewish community leaders are saying has contributed to
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  Speaker 3: this constant rise of anti Semitic activity that we've seen
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  Speaker 3: over the past three years, and so I think for
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: them to see that sort of acknowledgment was probably quite comforting.
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  Speaker 1: We already know that Asio believes that the Iranian Revolutionary
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: Guard CORE executed two terrorist attacks on Australian soil, on
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: the Adassi's Rail Sinner in Melbourne and on a Jewish
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: deli in Sydney. What else did he say about Iran
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  Speaker 1: on Monday?
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  Speaker 3: He said that he thought that there were more so
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  Speaker 3: he said that ASIO has been actively investigating whether or
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: not there were more anti Semitic attacks that were conducted
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  Speaker 3: on Australian soil on the instruction of the IRGC, but
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: they just hadn't gotten to a point yet where they
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: were able to prove it.
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  Speaker 5: What I can say publicly is that would include are
• 10:27
  Speaker 5: there any other potential actions underway from the State of
• 10:31
  Speaker 5: Iran And obviously can't say more than that here, but
• 10:34
  Speaker 5: not to scare people. That is work done out of
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  Speaker 5: abundance of caution, inquiring and investigating, using our special powers
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  Speaker 5: to satisfy ourselves. Individuals in Australia who might have connections
• 10:46
  Speaker 5: with Iran and the IRGC are not a security problem
• 10:51
  Speaker 5: and we've been undertaking that work.
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  Speaker 3: That I thought was quite interesting to be said publicly.
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  Speaker 3: That was the first time we had heard that from him,
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  Speaker 3: and I wonder if it means or will be seeing
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: more announcements or whatever that will look like moving forward.
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: We know the Iranian embassy and the Iranian ambassador was
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: expelled from Australia after they last identified that there were
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: two attacks that were taken out on Australian soil, so
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: there would be a lot of interest to hear if
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: more had been done.
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: He's a very savvy communicator, Mike Burgess. He doesn't say
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: anything without thinking about it first, and of course he
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: has dragged Daisio further out of the shadows than any
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: Director General in history. He says these things with a
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: purpose in mind, and I suppose part of that purpose
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: might have been just sending a signal to the Iranians
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: that we're onto you.
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: I guess they're a bit busy now though they got
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: a bit going on. Thanks Elly, thank you. You heard
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: Ellie and I talking about Navide Akram. He's facing dozens
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: of charges, including murder and committing a terrorist act over
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: the December fourteen massacre Bondai Beach. Crumb has yet to
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: enter a plea, but is likely to defend the charges.
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: You can read all Ellie Dudley's work and the latest
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: from the Anti Semitism and Social Cohesion Royal Commission right
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: now at the Australian dot Com dot u