Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #428 Talking To Your Kids About Needles

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#428 Talking To Your Kids About Needles · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast. It's the podcast for the
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  Speaker 1: time poor parent who just wants answers.
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  Speaker 2: Now we can acknowledge I know that you're not going
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  Speaker 2: to enjoy this. Let's talk about what it is you're afraid,
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  Speaker 2: and this is why you're afraid. And the research is
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  Speaker 2: basically found that when we acknowledge it, when we slow
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  Speaker 2: it down, when we honor our children's feelings, let them
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  Speaker 2: not it's okay to be scared.
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  Speaker 3: And don't criticize them. They do fine.
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  Speaker 1: And now here's the stars of our show, my mum
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  Speaker 1: and dad.
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  Speaker 2: Hey, Kylie, I've got to ask when you were a
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  Speaker 2: when you were a kid, how did you go with needles?
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  Speaker 2: Do you have any memorable needles or vaccination moments? Were
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  Speaker 2: you one of those kids that passed out when the
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  Speaker 2: little sliver of shiny silver came out to get poked
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  Speaker 2: and prodded with?
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  Speaker 4: Well, the first memory I have of having a blood test,
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  Speaker 4: so I don't actually remember vaccinations at all, right, but
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  Speaker 4: the first time I had to have a blood test,
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  Speaker 4: I would have been twelve, maybe thirteen, and I was
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  Speaker 4: very unwell and I had to lie down and I cried,
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  Speaker 4: right And it was.
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  Speaker 3: Just before or after the needle before right.
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  Speaker 4: And the old lady who was taking my blood, she
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  Speaker 4: was really gruff and just told me to stop being
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  Speaker 4: a sook and got really upset at.
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  Speaker 3: Me missed the nineteen eighties.
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  Speaker 4: And then I tried to get up off the bed
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  Speaker 4: and I fainted. Oh really, yes, you.
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  Speaker 3: Hit the deck?
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  Speaker 4: I did?
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  Speaker 3: And did she say get up some biggest So.
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  Speaker 4: It was it was a very traumatic experience for me.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, you seem to do okay with needles nowadays, you've
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  Speaker 2: had plenty of them.
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  Speaker 4: Well, once you've had six babies, you kind of just,
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  Speaker 4: you know, you just.
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  Speaker 3: Lay there and take it all. Right, another leader showd
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  Speaker 3: jab me again.
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  Speaker 2: I'm a fan of Happy Families dot com dot iu
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  Speaker 2: the author of six books about raising kids, and you're
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  Speaker 2: the mum of our six daughters, and we have the
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  Speaker 2: Happy Families podcast hosts.
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  Speaker 3: Today, we're talking.
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  Speaker 2: About something that many families are dealing with right around
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  Speaker 2: the country, as we look to have children age five
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  Speaker 2: to eleven vaccinated against COVID. Now, we're not going to
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  Speaker 2: get caught up in the politics of whether or not
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  Speaker 2: you should or shouldn't at the moment. The expectation is
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  Speaker 2: that kids from five to eleven will and certainly all children,
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  Speaker 2: is it fifteen or sixteen and over something like that.
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  Speaker 2: They've got to be double vaxed and maybe even boosted
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  Speaker 2: in time. Otherwise they're not going to be allowed to
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  Speaker 2: participate fully in life in a lot of ways.
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  Speaker 4: But the reality is, whether it's COVID vaccination or a
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  Speaker 4: blood test or another immunization, your children are going to
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  Speaker 4: be faced with needles at some point.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, if you want to travel to many countries, there's
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  Speaker 2: an expectation that you have to have certain boosters or
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  Speaker 2: certain shots or whatever it might be. So we thought
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  Speaker 2: today we might talk about what research tells us about
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  Speaker 2: how best to help the children deal with getting a needle.
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  Speaker 2: And I think that we really need to get straight
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  Speaker 2: to the pointy end of this conversation.
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  Speaker 4: Is that right?
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  Speaker 2: Do you think that was a sharp comment? Let me
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  Speaker 2: inject some human into the conversation.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, let's stop there.
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  Speaker 3: I've I've got a tip for you.
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  Speaker 4: I'm sorry, I'm actually quite interested. Is there actually research
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  Speaker 4: on how we can help kids? There is, and when
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  Speaker 4: it comes to receiving needles.
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  Speaker 2: So this is about pain management, Okay, So effective pain management.
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  Speaker 3: According to the United Nations.
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  Speaker 2: The who World Health Organization, it's a basic human right.
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  Speaker 2: It's good ethical practice to have effective pain management fund
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  Speaker 2: It's a fundamental human right according to the major global organizations.
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  Speaker 2: And when you're giving children needles, it's not just about saying,
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  Speaker 2: line up, stick a needle in your off you go.
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  Speaker 2: You need to make sure that they're going to be
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  Speaker 2: taken care of it. It's important because needles can be traumatizing.
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  Speaker 2: You shared your story about your your passing out. Can
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  Speaker 2: I share a quick one? Actually, I'm going to share
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  Speaker 2: two really quickly. When the whole thing, do you tell
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  Speaker 2: the kids or not tell them? Okay, kids, we're going
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  Speaker 2: to get in the car, I'm going to go. We've
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  Speaker 2: done both. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So my mum, when I
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  Speaker 2: was probably about eight, put me in the car and
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  Speaker 2: took me into Gosford, growing up on the New South
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  Speaker 2: Wales Central coast, and said, oh, we've got to go
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  Speaker 2: and see the doctor about We got to the building
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  Speaker 2: and as we were getting out of the car, mum said, well,
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  Speaker 2: we'll just go and get your needle and then we'll
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  Speaker 2: be done with it.
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  Speaker 3: Or something whatever it was. She told me I was
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  Speaker 3: going to get a needle.
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  Speaker 2: She literally had to pull me out of the car
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  Speaker 2: on this eight year old and I was fighting for life.
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  Speaker 2: There was probably about the big, big, like ten meters
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  Speaker 2: wide concrete steps to the top of this building where
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  Speaker 2: everyone was walking in to get their vaccinations for whatever.
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  Speaker 3: And Mum literally was dragging me up the stairs.
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  Speaker 2: And I mean, I'm talking. She had one arm, and
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  Speaker 2: I was, you know, you see it every now and
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  Speaker 2: again in the show. Is this kid trying to run
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  Speaker 2: away from the parents and they've got one arm, And
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  Speaker 2: I was, I was not going to go in there.
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  Speaker 2: In the end, she got me in there and they
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  Speaker 2: gave me the needle, and I don't remember the worst
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  Speaker 2: part was getting dragged up the stairs. I don't remember
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  Speaker 2: the needle, and I don't know. A year or two
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  Speaker 2: later I remember, or maybe it was a year or
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  Speaker 2: two before, I went into the doctor's surgery, sitting in
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  Speaker 2: the surgery and Mum said, well, it's time for the
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  Speaker 2: needle now, And the doctor had to drag me up
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  Speaker 2: from under his.
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  Speaker 3: Desk like I was on the needle. Folk, I'm laughing
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  Speaker 3: at you, O proaout needlephobic.
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  Speaker 2: So research tells us that we've got to manage this
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  Speaker 2: well because it can be pretty traumatizing.
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  Speaker 4: It's interesting because, like I said, we've done this a
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  Speaker 4: few different ways with our kids over the years, and
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  Speaker 4: the most effective way that we have found to deal
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  Speaker 4: with this with our children is to literally sit them
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  Speaker 4: down and talk about it. Yeah, And I remember the
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  Speaker 4: first time we did that, I thought, this is not
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  Speaker 4: going to go. Well. How do you have a conversation
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  Speaker 4: with your four year old about the fact that they're
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  Speaker 4: about to have some sharp pointy things stabbed in there arm?
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  Speaker 4: And it's going to be okay?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, And if you've had daughters by the time their teens,
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  Speaker 2: they're going to have done this like the first six
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  Speaker 2: years particularly, but even through their teen years, there's a
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  Speaker 2: lot of needles to be given.
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  Speaker 3: She blew me away. M hmm.
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  Speaker 4: I told her that it was going to be like
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  Speaker 4: a beasting. She'd had a few of those already, so
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  Speaker 4: she knew what it was like. And I said, it
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  Speaker 4: really really hurts when it first happens. And I said,
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  Speaker 4: and then it slowly disappears. And she looked at me
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  Speaker 4: and she said, huh, I don't really want a beasting.
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  Speaker 3: No, that's I'm not looking for them.
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  Speaker 4: And I said to her, I know, but this one's
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  Speaker 4: going to make you don't get sick. And she kind
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  Speaker 4: of looked at me and she said okay, and we
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  Speaker 4: went literally walked into the doctors. I didn't even have
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  Speaker 4: to hold her, she just sat there. She looked at
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  Speaker 4: him and she said, okay, I'm ready and he stabbed up.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and a lot of parents are still.
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  Speaker 4: Going and I'm like, my eyes were all watery. And
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  Speaker 4: she looked at me and she went, Huh, that wasn't
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  Speaker 4: as bad as I thought it was.
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  Speaker 2: Right, But a lot of parents don't get to have
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  Speaker 2: that experience, even when they have the conversation.
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  Speaker 4: We have a seventeen year old who's not like that
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  Speaker 4: at all.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so let's talk about what the science says.
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  Speaker 4: Realize she takes after you.
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  Speaker 3: It's you, it's your car. We'll just get back to
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  Speaker 3: the sciences stops right. Actually, let's do that right after
• 6:38
  Speaker 3: the break. It's the Happy Families Podcast.
• 6:41
  Speaker 5: Imagine a home where discipline got results without anyone having
• 6:44
  Speaker 5: to feel bad or in trouble. The do's and don'ts
• 6:46
  Speaker 5: of Disciplined as a webinar to help parents set limits
• 6:49
  Speaker 5: with love, compassion, and humanity. Find it now at happy
• 6:53
  Speaker 5: families dot com dot au slash Shop.
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: It's the Happy Families podcast, the podcast for the type
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  Speaker 4: or parent who just wants as now and we've just
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  Speaker 4: worked out justin is to blame.
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  Speaker 3: I'm okay with needles nowadays.
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  Speaker 2: Okay, oh my poor I'm a grown manly man, and
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  Speaker 2: I'm fine with it. When we have a look at research,
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  Speaker 2: scientific research tells us that distraction interventions matter, they're important.
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  Speaker 2: So a distraction intervention is basically there's all kinds of
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  Speaker 2: so you can get them to listen to something and
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  Speaker 2: get them to look at something. You can get them
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  Speaker 2: to so there's acupressure or touch, all those kinds of things. Interestingly,
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  Speaker 2: the ones that I've just mentioned in a recent meta
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  Speaker 2: analysis twenty twenty one paper looking at a whole lot
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  Speaker 2: of studies different distraction inventions, those ones don't work well
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  Speaker 2: at all. They're about to say, they're the ones that
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  Speaker 2: don't work. So if you're saying, hey, listen to this,
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  Speaker 2: or let's listen to some music while we jab you
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  Speaker 2: with the needle, let's get you to think about something else.
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  Speaker 2: Imagine you're on a white sandy beach. Doesn't work. Touch
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  Speaker 2: that doesn't work, holding their hand or getting them to
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  Speaker 2: squeeze your hand.
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  Speaker 3: It doesn't work.
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  Speaker 4: Lollies work, and.
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  Speaker 2: Acupressure doesn't work. Well, that's not a distraction intervention. We're
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  Speaker 2: going to talk about lollies and rewards in a sec
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  Speaker 2: The ones that do work, you're ready. According to the
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  Speaker 2: twenty twenty one meta analysis that I'm using and will
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  Speaker 2: put this in the show, notes, people want more clowns.
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  Speaker 2: A clown distraction works, So any parents who can be clowns,
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  Speaker 2: or any parents who can afford to higher a clown
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  Speaker 2: for the vaccination, go for your life for you.
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  Speaker 3: But they've actually done studies with clowns in hospitals.
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  Speaker 4: We're actually not if it clown's the one giving the needle.
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  Speaker 2: We're talking about kids with chronic pain who are getting
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  Speaker 2: a lot of injections here, so they're going to be
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  Speaker 2: in hospitals where there are clowns, which is why that
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  Speaker 2: one makes sense. The other one that really does work
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  Speaker 2: is visual distraction, So getting them to watch YouTube or
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  Speaker 2: funny cat videos on the internet, something like that can
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  Speaker 2: genuinely make a difference.
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  Speaker 3: Those the two. If you're going to distract, that seem
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  Speaker 3: to be most effective.
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  Speaker 4: So what about rewards, would you recommend.
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  Speaker 2: Them definitely, and the research shows that. Now I'm not
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  Speaker 2: a big rewards kind of guy. In fact, for most parenting,
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  Speaker 2: I would say avoid rewards at all costs.
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  Speaker 3: But you mentioned one of our.
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  Speaker 2: Kids who's terrified, terrified of needles and rewards. That's barely enough.
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  Speaker 2: But a really cool reward is usually enough. And what
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  Speaker 2: we found with our children is that when we promise
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  Speaker 2: them that once this is done, we're going to go
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  Speaker 2: and get you that treat, they're usually pretty well willing
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  Speaker 2: to put up with any level of pain at all
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  Speaker 2: so that they can get the treat. And the research
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  Speaker 2: evidence would suggest that a reward is enough to help
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  Speaker 2: a child get through it. It's not necessarily a pain
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  Speaker 2: management strategy, but it is a way to get the
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  Speaker 2: child immunized and hopefully you've got somebody who can work
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  Speaker 2: with you on those other distractions.
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  Speaker 4: One of the other things that I've noticed over the
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  Speaker 4: years is we've had to take multiple children through this process.
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  Speaker 4: Is just acknowledging that it does hurt and it's okay
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  Speaker 4: to have a cry.
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  Speaker 3: Well, this is the critical thing.
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  Speaker 2: So I found another research paper looking at some qualitative
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  Speaker 2: study just talking to nurses to parents and children as
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  Speaker 2: they were going through through the injection process. And what
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  Speaker 2: they found is that number one, kids are definitely afraid,
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  Speaker 2: full stop endo story. What they're mostly afraid of is
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  Speaker 2: the needle going in the pain of that. But the
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  Speaker 2: researchers found that the kids tend to find the after
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  Speaker 2: effects of the needle worse. That is, it comes out
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  Speaker 2: and that's when the sting and the after effect, the
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  Speaker 2: sore arm, that kind of stuff happens. And in terms
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  Speaker 2: of what parents can do, we can essentially acknowledge, I
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  Speaker 2: know that you're not going to enjoy this. Let's talk
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  Speaker 2: about what it is. Let's name it. You're afraid, and
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  Speaker 2: this is why you're afraid. Let's talk through how it's
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  Speaker 2: going to happen and answer any questions. And the research
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  Speaker 2: is basically found that when we acknowledge it, when we
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  Speaker 2: slow it down, when we honor our children's feelings, let
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  Speaker 2: them know it's okay to be scared, and don't criticize them,
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  Speaker 2: they do fine. I mean, you don't want to talk
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  Speaker 2: about it too much, not like you want to talk
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  Speaker 2: about it for the next ten days leading up to
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  Speaker 2: the injection, because they've got all that time to worry
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  Speaker 2: about it. But on the morning sit down and say,
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  Speaker 2: all right, kiddo, in the next five minutes, we're going
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  Speaker 2: to jump in the car. Here's what's going to happen.
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  Speaker 2: And the research evidence suggests that that's a really powerful
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  Speaker 2: way to do it. What we don't want to do
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  Speaker 2: is criticize. We don't want to disregard, like this will
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  Speaker 2: do your good or it's only a tiny, little thin needle,
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  Speaker 2: it's not going to hurt that much.
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  Speaker 4: So do you have any advice for parents who are
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  Speaker 4: dealing with children with additional needs like autism?
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, definitely. So this can be really tricky.
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  Speaker 2: There's a diverse way, a diverse range of ways that
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  Speaker 2: we might respond, depending on our child. I think that
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  Speaker 2: what we really want to do is talk clearly, acknowledge
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  Speaker 2: those feelings, minimize distractions. When we're talking about especially children
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  Speaker 2: who have got sensory issues, a needle is already a
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  Speaker 2: major sensory issue. We don't want to have a whole
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  Speaker 2: lot of noise, a whole lot of distractions and all
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  Speaker 2: that kind of thing. I wouldn't recommend restraining. I don't
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  Speaker 2: think that that's a good way forward. We probably really
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  Speaker 2: just need to talk to the specialists or the nurse
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  Speaker 2: whoever is going to be giving them the needle and
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  Speaker 2: ask them to work with us carefully through that situation.
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  Speaker 3: It's pretty tricky.
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  Speaker 2: Ultimately, I really think that distraction techniques are the best
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  Speaker 2: way to go. There was an article published just a
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  Speaker 2: couple of years ago in the journal Pain, and what
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  Speaker 2: it showed is that when children are highly distressed, and
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  Speaker 2: when we're giving lots and lots of what we would
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  Speaker 2: call coping promoting verbalizations, that is, you'll be okay, it's
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  Speaker 2: going to be okay, you can manage it's not that bad.
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  Speaker 2: The more that we do that, the worse it actually
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  Speaker 2: is because we're building it up so big. What the
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  Speaker 2: kids really need is I know this is going to hurt,
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  Speaker 2: I know you don't like it. I'm right here for you.
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  Speaker 2: Give us a hug. Okay, let's go get that treat,
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  Speaker 2: and if we can downplay it, explain, give them time.
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  Speaker 2: That's really what our kids need to get through this
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  Speaker 2: needle issue in the easiest possible way.
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  Speaker 4: And I think that's what surprised me the most when
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  Speaker 4: we finally decided to just be truthful with our four
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  Speaker 4: year old. Yeah, it was so interesting because it was
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  Speaker 4: just it's just going to be like a beasting and
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  Speaker 4: then it will disappear. She kind of just accepted it.
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  Speaker 4: It made such a difference by just kind of, like
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  Speaker 4: you said, downplaying it.
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  Speaker 3: If needles are in your future.
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  Speaker 2: I hope that the point of this podcast has been
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  Speaker 2: obtained and that we've been able to be sharp with
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: what we shared.
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  Speaker 3: Did you see what I did there?
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  Speaker 4: Just end now please.
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  Speaker 2: The Happy Family's podcast is produced by Justin Ryland from
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: Bridge Media.
• 13:09
  Speaker 3: Craig Bruce is our executive producer
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: And if you'd like more information about making your family happier,
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: visitors at happy families dot com dot au.