Latest / The Price of Music / Interview: Simon Raymonde, Cocteau Twins and Bella Union records

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Interview: Simon Raymonde, Cocteau Twins and Bella Union records · The Price of Music

1:20
Hello and welcome to The Price of Music, the show that looks at
1:23
the money behind the music industry with this week well
1:26
just me, Steve Lemack and our first guest of the year.
1:29
While Stuart is away at a conference which will be
1:32
reporting back from next week, I had great pleasure to speak to
1:36
Simon Raymond. Simon was the years a member of
1:39
the influential and much acclaimed Cocktail Twins who
1:43
released during their career 8 studio albums, five of which
1:48
went top 20 and then after the band fell apart as well as own
1:53
occasional musical projects, he ended up running the incredibly
1:56
well respected Bella Union record label.
1:59
He also recently published his autobiography In One Ear.
2:03
But what stories has he to tell, what lessons has he learned and
2:08
what advice has he to pass on to the next generation?
2:12
You're about to find out, Simon. Welcome to The Price of Music.
2:17
Thank you very much for joining us.
2:18
Thank you, Steve. I must be here.
2:20
I I tell you what, I have learnt so much about you from your
2:23
book, some of which we will touch on later.
2:26
But there are some terrific windows into the music industry,
2:29
and just reminders of the largesse of the music industry
2:33
going back to when your band Cocktail Twins first came to the
2:36
fore in the 80s, including just how much money artists and
2:40
labels spent on their videos back then.
2:44
Terrifying. Isn't it I?
2:47
Mean, I think you mentioned a Sisters of Mercy video.
2:49
Was it Sisters of Mercy? Yeah.
2:51
I was thinking whether. Oh, it was a goth band of some
2:53
kind. Not mine, thankfully.
2:56
Yeah. I think they spent £2,000,000 on
2:58
a video. Can you do you know what I mean?
3:01
I mean, it just beggars belief. I mean, it wasn't that long ago.
3:05
I mean, I'm old, but I mean, it's it's it's only a couple of
3:07
decades back, but yeah, yeah, incredible.
3:11
When you think what bands would spend now on videos, maybe like
3:13
a couple of 1000 at the best. You've got 2000 lbs to be
3:17
spending on a video now you're like, wow, we're doing well.
3:21
I mean, perceptively, you do say in the book it was lucky we
3:24
never dropped £1,000,000 on a video because that's £1,000,000
3:28
that we didn't have to recoup because we can see all those
3:31
expensive videos that were actually coming out of the
3:33
artist budget. Yes, and.
3:36
That's the thing in your, in your, in your 20s when you're
3:38
just excited to be in the music business making music, you're
3:41
not really, and somebody's saying, let's spend £1,000,000
3:44
on a video, it'll look amazing, you'll be huge.
3:46
Well, you'll be on top of the pot.
3:48
You, you're not really thinking about the money side.
3:51
And I think what's what's amazing about the music Business
3:53
Today is that bands are so much more clued up, most likely
3:58
because of all these, you know, errors bands of the of the 70s
4:02
and 80s and 90s actually made. And there's just more education
4:07
out there. So bands are just a lot more
4:08
savvy, which I think is a great thing.
4:10
And it is it partly because artists from those eras, from
4:14
the 80s and the 90s have have talked about how skint they are
4:18
and the mistakes they made. And it's much more, it's much
4:21
more in the public domain now. Slightly less, yeah, slightly
4:24
less secrecy around the industry.
4:26
Yeah, even deals, I mean, you know, I think, you know, all we
4:28
just all we have to do now is like what what, what, what does
4:31
a record deal in 2024 look like? Just type it into what is it,
4:35
ChatGPT? And you know, you'll probably
4:37
have a full 20 page contract print it out for you.
4:40
So this is quite crazy how things have progressed because
4:43
back in the day, I mean, we, we didn't know anything.
4:46
You'd know something if you spoke to a mate who was in a
4:48
band who had a record deal, but he wouldn't know anything about
4:51
it either because he'll have just signed at the bottom.
4:54
And that's what we did. You know, we got a two page
4:56
agreement from 4AD which just said we're going to own
5:00
everything for the rest of your lives.
5:01
But we didn't really look at it like that.
5:03
We're just like, wow, a record deal.
5:04
I'm so excited. And you sign it.
5:06
And then only decades later, you're like, oh, OK, well, I
5:12
don't think that was the wisest thing to do, you know?
5:16
I mean, it was his. I mean, it used to be.
5:18
I mean, there was a mantra in the, I don't know about the 80s,
5:21
but certainly when I was knocking around with A&R scouts
5:24
in the 90s, not an evening would go by without somebody
5:28
mentioning Band X and saying the fateful words.
5:31
They're 90 grand unrecouped. Because that was the thing.
5:35
There was so much money being spent that actually it became it
5:39
became such a dead weight which groups had to carry around with
5:43
them, this record company debt. Yeah, I think it destroyed the
5:46
music business, to be honest with you.
5:48
I really do. I think that's part of the
5:50
problems we're all still recovering from, if we'll ever
5:52
recover from them. And I think the beauty of of
5:55
that period, for the Cocktail Twins at least, is that we never
5:58
had those budgets because 4AD, you know, I don't know what they
6:01
spent these days on bands. Hopefully not stupid amounts of
6:05
money either, but back then we might get 3 or 4 grand here or
6:08
there to make a record. So our budgets were super cheap
6:12
to make records that that, that we were, that we were in the
6:14
studio doing so therefore as soon as they, the day of
6:17
release, we were recouped. Really, I mean, I'm not kidding.
6:21
You're like literally the day the record came out that you
6:24
know, you know, the pre-orders would have gone through or the
6:26
records get shipped and then you're recouped and you're
6:29
making money. So there's never this sort of
6:32
millstone round your neck of, of all, of all this debts that
6:36
you're carrying. It was only when later years
6:38
when we signed with, with the major label in, in the last two
6:41
albums of our career that we sort of experienced that kind of
6:45
nightmare where we were being given absolutely daft sums of
6:49
money and we we never recoup from them.
6:52
I think actually the, the, the where are we now?
6:55
We, we broke up in 1997. I think in 2020 we were still
6:59
about half 1,000,000 lbs and recouped really with mercury,
7:04
with the universal. Because I mean, this is this
7:08
obviously presents problems as well for I mean, there's, I
7:12
mean, there's hundreds of bands who've never paid back the loan
7:15
who remain number of keeps. But obviously this has a knock
7:17
on effect, doesn't it, because they're probably still playing
7:20
off this loan very slowly through their streaming.
7:23
Revenue, that's yes. And then you never get the
7:25
record back, you know, so it's never yours to be able to do
7:28
anything with as long as that debt remains, which is which is
7:31
the sad bit. And someone else is always going
7:34
to be controlling those rights. And if they can't be bothered to
7:37
repress the record or put it back into circulation or promote
7:41
repromote a video or something from that period, then the
7:44
streaming numbers are going to remain probably quite low.
7:47
Thankfully, the Cox twins have had a bit of a renaissance in
7:50
the last couple of years through TikTok, which has meant that the
7:54
streaming numbers, I mean, mostly the four AD wants to be
7:58
fair, but the streaming numbers are just insane.
8:01
So as a consequence, because we were always recruit with four AD
8:05
that that, that you know that it's always, it's there's always
8:08
checks being paid out, which is just not the case for probably
8:14
90% of bands that are working in music today, even on the tiny
8:19
budgets that labels are giving them.
8:21
It's just that the numbers aren't don't exist anymore.
8:23
The streaming's are low generally and the record sales
8:26
are super low. I think it's a it, it's, it's
8:30
like in different industry, Steve, I couldn't, could, it
8:32
couldn't be more simple than that.
8:34
It's like a different business. Yeah, I wanted to talk to you
8:37
about what you know, what has changed particularly in the
8:39
lifespan of your own record like or Bella Union, which which
8:42
we'll come to you in a in a second.
8:45
You mentioned record that you had being on 4AD and then later
8:49
signing to Fontana and it's, it strikes me from the book, one of
8:55
the labels gave you a loving ear but very little money.
8:58
The other gave you lots more money but didn't listen to a
9:01
thing you said. Is that fair?
9:03
Yeah, that's that is absolutely accurate, Yes.
9:06
And, you know, I think at the time, because of all the things
9:08
that gone on and the fallout with 4AD, we didn't want the
9:13
listening ear, We didn't want the friendship.
9:15
It was. So, you know, it's it's surreal
9:17
if you think about it now, because probably if we'd have
9:20
stayed together, we we'd have realised that actually we were
9:22
far better off poor, but appreciated than than than, you
9:28
know, cash rich and no one gave a monkeys, you know, and that
9:32
that's definitely the situation we were in.
9:33
But what we were after was the stability of of of being able to
9:38
buy our own studio and not have to, you know, scrimp and save
9:43
and go into someone else's place and on a clock.
9:45
We wanted to have our own place and the bigger budget gave us
9:49
that. And I obviously seen bands in,
9:52
in the, in this era where you maybe put a record out on an
9:57
indie label and you have no budget and it, it does amazingly
10:00
well. I mean, Fleet Foxes is actually
10:02
a perfect example of a band that was on, was on Bell Union.
10:06
But I think we gave them $15,000 as an advance for the first
10:10
album, which then went on to sell a million copies.
10:13
And then when they left an album a couple of albums later, you
10:17
know what I I mean, whether it's true or not, I don't know.
10:20
But somebody told me they, you know, they signed for close to,
10:22
to $1,000,000. And and that of course, is never
10:26
going to get recouped no matter how good the band is.
10:29
Fleet Foxes would Fleet Foxes in 2000 and whatever it is, 15 is
10:34
never going to recoup $1,000,000 at a major label.
10:38
But a major label would rather have them than not have them
10:41
because it's it's the kudos of having a band like that, I
10:44
suppose. What deals?
10:46
So what? Why, why?
10:47
Why do bands sign these deals? Are they flattered by the money?
10:53
Do they do they do they not appreciate maybe what's the
10:58
outcome of this is going to be which is just debt for.
11:03
A circumstance, everybody's, nobody's the same, everyone's
11:06
got different circumstances. So it's hard to generalise.
11:09
I think in our position when we signed to Mercury, we're all in
11:12
our, we're all in our sort of mid 30s.
11:15
What was it, 93? So, well we were in our 30s.
11:19
So we, we all had mortgages, we all had children.
11:26
We all, you know, we had, we had sort of gotten a certain quality
11:29
of, of, of lifestyle that we enjoyed.
11:33
And we particularly wanted the the money that 4AD couldn't give
11:38
us to be able to invest in our own recording studio.
11:40
And, you know, back in the 90s, buying recording equipment was
11:45
incredibly expensive. You know, to buy a mixing desk
11:48
was 100,000 lbs. Now, you know, with computers
11:52
and, and, and, and technology the way it is, you know, you
11:55
could equip a whole studio for 10, you know, so everything
12:00
changed. But we needed that budget to be
12:02
able to do what we wanted to do, shut the doors, lock, lock
12:05
ourselves in and make a record in our own time.
12:08
Why people do it now? I think it, it's just going to
12:11
be circumstance. It can't possibly be because you
12:14
think it's, you're going to have a great time working with, with,
12:18
with, with these people. Because more often than not, the
12:22
kind of music that our our bands release is not really it's, it's
12:26
just not compatible with the kind of music that that
12:28
Universal have great success with, which is generally pop,
12:32
pop music. And they're very good at it.
12:34
And you can't, you can't argue with that.
12:37
I think it's interesting when I mean, obviously the first point
12:40
we should we should hammer home is this idea that when you sign
12:45
a long term deal for a record or even a short term deal for a
12:48
record, that label will then own your record forever and ever.
12:53
And it suddenly struck me and what and what do you get back
12:56
out of it? They'll, they'll give you a
12:58
little bit of money or in some cases with a major label give
13:01
you a lot of money, but what else do you get out of it?
13:03
Marketing and distribution and some.
13:06
Maybe, maybe not much more. It's really the, it's really the
13:09
upfront check. Yeah.
13:11
And of course, once you've spent that, well, what's there's
13:14
nothing left because the relationship isn't there.
13:17
That and the sort of the background understanding of your
13:20
music probably isn't there and there isn't really a fan base
13:23
within the company because that's the other thing is about
13:26
teams that whether it's four Ad or Sub Pop or Heavenly or
13:30
whatever independent label you're on, it's generally run by
13:34
two or three or four or five very connected, cool people who
13:39
the band relate to on many levels, not just music.
13:43
You know, they, they, they, they, they understand what
13:45
they're trying to do and you can have conversations with them
13:48
about stuff about life. I think with the bigger
13:51
companies, those, those, maybe the guy that signed you isn't
13:54
even going to be there in a year.
13:56
And that's what we we definitely found that, you know, the
13:59
turnover of staff at major labels is just so intense that
14:03
you don't really have a team. Well, you have a team, but you
14:05
don't know who they are and they change from from one month to
14:09
the next. So it's quite hard to build sort
14:11
of close relationships with, with people.
14:13
And that that's why I love, you know, what we do.
14:16
And and labels, like I mentioned there, they all have that
14:20
connectivity still, I think. But yeah, I mean, the, the the
14:23
deal with four AD and and I think they're probably still one
14:26
of the only labels that sign people's copyright for for life
14:31
in perpetuity. They call it, you know, so you,
14:33
you sign a deal and they keep those rights for forever.
14:37
I mean, that doesn't really happen.
14:38
I, I never do it. I, I can't do it.
14:41
It just feels, I don't know, it just feels morally wrong to me
14:45
because of what we went through and the fact that, you know,
14:48
we've, we're on a very low royalty because not because they
14:52
were trying to, they were, you know, trying to pay us nothing.
14:56
Well, well, they were, but that's just the norm back then.
14:59
I don't think they were doing anything that no one else was
15:01
doing. They were just paying the
15:03
royalty rates that was standard in the independent community at
15:07
the time, whatever the 810%, something like that, which is
15:10
really just awful, right. And now we're not on that
15:15
royalty rate anymore, but years have passed.
15:18
And whilst they still have the rights and will have the rights
15:21
forever, we've negotiated better terms for ourselves because
15:25
we're on, we're on great terms with, with four AD these days,
15:29
you know, for obvious reasons, there's no point fighting with
15:32
people just for the sake of it. You know, you all grow up and,
15:35
and you have to build those relationships to ensure that
15:38
they, they pay you the best thing.
15:39
If you accept that you're never going to get your rights back,
15:42
you may as well work with the people who have them to, you
15:45
know, to, to get the best end result And, and currently that's
15:48
sort of working. So going back said you're,
15:53
you're in the Cocteau Twins, you know, at one, I mean, you have a
15:56
decent level of success. But even after, even after two
16:01
or three top five albums, you talk in the book about having
16:04
the bailiffs at the door and having maxed out all your, all
16:07
your credit cards. And I think that's something
16:10
which, as you say, people are more aware of that now.
16:12
But we never realised that some of the musicians that we loved,
16:16
that we read about in the music press were so skint a lot of the
16:21
time. So skin and so, you know,
16:25
lacking in advice of financial planning, you know, most bands
16:29
these days come with before they even signed a deal come with a
16:31
lawyer and an accountant. You know, we didn't have a
16:34
manager Steve for the 1st eight or nine years until until Heaven
16:41
Las Vegas, which was, you know, ironically our most successful
16:45
record warp 1990. So from 1982 through to 1980,
16:50
30/19/90, there was no one helping the bat with financial
16:55
advice, with accounting. So we were just stumbling
17:00
through blindly thinking we we were sort of untouchable, you
17:04
know, doing well, going on tour all the time.
17:07
But then all of a sudden when the knock on the door and the
17:10
tax man is like guys, you, you, you owe us like 150,000 lbs or
17:16
whatever. And then the VAT man is saying
17:18
the same thing. You suddenly have to wake up and
17:21
realise that yes, you have done very well for yourselves, but
17:25
you actually haven't paid any tax or any VAT and you need to
17:28
do these things. These days that wouldn't happen.
17:31
You wouldn't be able to get away with eight years of not paying
17:34
something. It, it was just a very, very
17:36
different time. And I'm glad that bands are a
17:38
bit more savvy because it means conversations with them are a
17:42
lot easier. I'll come to Deals, which is the
17:47
sort of deals that you do with Bella Union in a second.
17:50
Just to finish the Cocteau's story, though, what?
17:53
Because I haven't quite got to. I've just got past a bit in the
17:57
book where you've signed to Fontana, you've been wined and
18:00
dined, signed to the major. The relationship between band
18:04
and label sours quite quickly. Look fast.
18:08
Fast forward. This is a bit I haven't got to
18:10
yet. What?
18:11
What are you feeling like? What happens when the band
18:13
breaks up at the end of it? Well, two questions.
18:16
Are you feeling bereft? And two, are you solvent?
18:22
Yes and no. So I mean, listen, the, the,
18:27
the, the, the, the, the actual final death knell was, was much
18:34
later than probably one would have imagined, given that the
18:38
main 2 protagonists in the band, you know, Robin Guthrie and
18:41
Elizabeth Fraser, who were a couple for, you know, a large
18:45
part of the of the band's history.
18:48
They broke up just after Heaven Las Vegas.
18:50
Yet we stayed together as a band for two more albums.
18:54
So like 91 through to 96 now, five years, quite a long time
18:59
to, to carry on being in a band with, with your long term love
19:05
partner, right? You know, it's unusual and it
19:08
certainly was strange for me being in the middle of it.
19:12
That, that, that that's definitely.
19:14
And I do talk about that quite a lot in the book.
19:18
But yeah, the breakup was painful in the sense that, well,
19:24
the, the, the physical, the romantic breakup was obviously
19:27
very painful for everybody. But then the band breaking up
19:31
when Elizabeth decided she couldn't continue with the
19:34
cocktails anymore, whilst I probably half of me was like, Oh
19:39
yeah, I totally see that. I'm not at all surprised.
19:43
I'm still of course, bereft because I don't have this band
19:47
anymore that I'd thrown all my energy into keeping together.
19:52
And really, it was the only thing I think that all of us had
19:56
that made us happy. Everything else kind of was just
19:59
a mess. But the music part and sitting
20:01
in a room writing music with, with, with, with them was really
20:05
pleasurable for all of us. No matter how grim all of the
20:10
other stuff were with the drug problems and the financial
20:12
problems and all the other nonsense going on was actually,
20:15
the music was still great and we still really enjoyed it.
20:18
So the, the feeling bereft was, was, yeah, I I don't get to see
20:23
my, my these friends anymore. And Elizabeth's going to go off
20:26
and do her thing. But now I don't have this, this
20:30
musical, you know, support system anymore.
20:34
What, what am I going to do with my days?
20:37
And financially, wow. Well, we were an absolute mess
20:40
because the studios, as you mentioned, was, was, was going
20:44
bust, went bust. And we, we became bankrupt all
20:49
the equipment from the studio which we'd spent the last five
20:52
years accruing and accumulating so that we could make these
20:56
beautiful records. It all went in the back of the
20:58
van and, and, and was taken off by the receivers, leaving us
21:02
with literally nothing. But, you know, I said in the
21:07
book probably that it is quite liberating in a way, losing
21:12
everything. You know, we talk about this at
21:14
a time when when, and we have to be careful, you know, people are
21:18
losing their homes and, and stuff in, in, in California.
21:21
So there's no comparison. But certainly in terms of losing
21:26
all your gear, your guitars, your amplifiers, your desk, your
21:30
tape machines, all the things that your, your equipment to
21:33
make your music on. Was was quite shocked, but at
21:37
the same time quite liberating because I'm, I'm the kind of
21:39
guy, Steve who's just like, OK, isn't great, but what are you
21:45
going to do about it? You've got to get up in the
21:47
morning, crack on with it and, and, and move forward.
21:49
There's no point wallowing in self pity.
21:51
Just get on with it. It is what it is.
21:53
It's not great, but you know, there's worse things going on in
21:57
the world and that's always been my attitude to pretty much
21:59
everything. So I wasn't like bereft about it
22:03
all for very long. I just thought, OK, what am I
22:05
going to do? Record label.
22:07
We've started it to put some quotations records out.
22:11
Well, now that's not going to happen, but we can put something
22:14
out at least. And, and and that's what
22:16
happened. And yeah, sure, I didn't expect
22:18
to be sitting here talking to you 27 years later about a
22:22
record label that I'd never intended to have.
22:25
So it is. C terms at
23:26
sportsbook.fanduel.com Gambling problem call 1800 gambler What
23:32
were the early lessons that you'd learnt then?
23:35
Being on the other sides of the record Global office, being the
23:38
man behind the desk if you had a desk.
23:41
I don't know when we, when we. Had a desk.
23:44
Never had that still. Don't have a desk?
23:46
No, I'm the only person that doesn't go into the office.
23:48
Really don't have a desk. Even a deceptive we.
23:51
Got rid of it. I, I, we had, we had an office
23:53
in, in strong in the strong room studios in, in, in Shoreditch
23:57
for about 7 or eight years. And I did have a desk there when
24:00
we moved in. Well, well, somebody erected me
24:02
a desk and there were some things on it.
24:05
And I probably went in there a couple of times.
24:07
But then I think after about 7 years, I went in there.
24:10
I was like, where's my desk? And they went, what are you
24:13
talking about? You're never here.
24:14
We got rid of it. I was like, Oh yeah, fair
24:15
enough, fair enough, fair enough.
24:17
But no. OK, so so so.
24:20
Yeah, so you start. So you start off and what are
24:24
the lessons that you learn very quickly, if you, if you learn
24:28
anything, but I imagine you must, you must make some
24:31
mistakes which you learn from. And looking back you can see how
24:36
the label starts to evolve. Yeah.
24:40
And I think that the very swift lesson to be learnt is, is you
24:43
know the people, you, the other people who you surround yourself
24:46
with, right? It's, it's like life, isn't it?
24:48
It's like, you know who? You find out who your friends
24:51
are, you find out who you want to be your friends.
24:53
You might experiment with this friend and that friend.
24:56
And then quickly you realise that, well, either these people
24:58
are not the people I thought they were.
25:00
And you find, you find your guys, right?
25:02
That, that that's obviously what happens in life, but it also
25:05
happens very much in the label sense.
25:08
Work with this distributor, realize maybe after a year
25:11
they're not really the right fit.
25:13
They don't seem to really get what we're doing.
25:15
Talk to some other people who say, well, listen, we really
25:18
love what you do. And then you start working with
25:21
them and then you realize that's a better fit.
25:23
You try this PR person, maybe it doesn't totally gel, so you move
25:27
to a different one. And then all of a sudden within
25:29
a few years you have like, Oh yeah, this feels really good.
25:34
This person's great. Everyone's talking to each
25:37
other, the connection's really good, and you sort of settle
25:40
into it. But I mean, that can take, I
25:42
would say where, when do we start?
25:43
9097 I would say probably was at least 2003 or 4 before I sort of
25:50
felt like, yeah, I think I can do this, you know, I think I
25:55
know what I'm doing definitely takes a long time because being
25:59
a musician, I'm running a record label.
26:01
You you'd think, well, it's fairly it's it's fairly
26:05
transmutable skills. I can go from this thing and do
26:09
they're so different, but I can't tell you, you know, being
26:12
a band is like piece of cake. You know, you just turn up, muck
26:16
about, do your parts, go home, light a spliff, go off onto, you
26:21
know, there's so many great parts and being a musician,
26:24
being a being a rapid label was is a whole is, is really, really
26:28
tough. You've really got to make some,
26:30
some some tough decisions there. And be careful with your money.
26:33
I mean the money, obviously, if you think about it, if I've got
26:37
100,000 lbs right as my label fund, just as a hypothetical
26:41
number and I sign 10 bands for 10 grand each, OK, that that's
26:49
the 100 grand gone. And if, what are the odds of
26:55
what, what are the odds of those bands, one in 10, two in 10,
27:00
five in 10? How many of them are going to go
27:02
on to make money, let alone recoup?
27:06
So that's, that's the conundrum. And the, and the these you're
27:09
always going to have running a label is I've got to get it
27:12
right more than I get it wrong. And that that's always been the
27:17
conundrum because if you if you do 10 at 10 grand each and you
27:22
spunk 100,000 lbs and they none of them take off, well then
27:27
you're out of business, right? This, this slightly reminds me
27:32
of your terrific anecdote in the book about your visit to a
27:36
casino in Las Vegas. But I'm not going to spoil it
27:39
for everyone because that's one of the highlights from the book.
27:43
But it does bring home what you're doing, which is every
27:48
time you're gambling and there's no, there's, you know, the same
27:52
with the roulette wheel. There is no system into this.
27:55
Every time you put some money on a band, that's a gamble.
28:01
Yes, and I mean like gambling, you know, there, there are
28:04
probably some tricks and tips that you can adhere to that that
28:07
gives you slightly better odds a return.
28:11
But actually roulette is not one of the roulette is has the the
28:15
the, the most difficult odds to to win your money back.
28:19
It's impossible. So you can only go on instinct.
28:24
And of course, if you stick at it and you're just chucking
28:27
chips onto the table on any number, you're just going to
28:30
lose it all. And the thing about casinos is
28:34
in America anyhow, the booze is all free.
28:37
So if you're just there having a great old time and some,
28:41
somebody's coming up with, you know, free Jack Daniels all
28:45
night long, you, you might be doing all right at the start of
28:48
the night, but chances are by three or 4:00 in the morning
28:51
because there's no windows. You know, the other thing is you
28:53
know no concept of time at all. But the thing.
28:56
Like music business? I was going to say you've just
28:59
described the music business in the 90s very recently standing
29:04
in airless rooms, being given record company people being
29:07
given free drinks and just Willy nilly on a whim almost, or on
29:13
one good review in The Enemy, deciding to throw 100 grand at a
29:18
band because apparently it's happening in Camden Forum.
29:21
And that's, that's the, that's right, I think.
29:23
That's why I was sort of initially attracted to it and
29:27
then horrified by it once I'd lost all my money.
29:32
Let's, let's, let's talk about deals.
29:34
You do now. I mean, so .1 you, you, you
29:38
don't sign a record or an artist's record in perpetuity.
29:43
So what, what do you do? You do deals between what about
29:46
seven years and 15 years? Is it somewhere within that
29:49
bracket? And then the and the record goes
29:51
back to the artist. That's exactly right.
29:54
So with Fleet Foxes, with Father John Misty, all of those deals
29:57
that we did around sort of 2008 to 10, that was the standard
30:01
actually for for sort of indie deals of seven, seven to 10
30:05
years. And that's generally where we
30:09
go. Obviously if a band wants a bit
30:13
more money than you would ordinarily give a brand new band
30:17
and maybe they want two album deal rather than one or three
30:23
rather than one, then you might want to extend those rights a
30:27
little bit. Maybe 10/12/15 years if the, if
30:31
the, you know, because you have to think, how am I ever going to
30:34
recoup this? And, and if I'm going to recoup
30:36
it at the rate of X pounds a year, if I'm giving somebody 100
30:41
grand for seven years, that's a heck of a gamble that you're
30:46
going to get it back in, in, in that very short period of time.
30:50
Because let's face it, most records sell in the first few
30:54
months. These days, the first the first
30:57
few weeks, things are changing so fast, man, I can't tell you,
31:00
even a couple of years ago it seemed like a record release had
31:05
a lifespan of at least a year. Now it feels like for some bands
31:11
it's it's a couple of weeks. It it, it's so grim how things
31:15
have have have changed so. That's the biggest take away.
31:20
How, how would you structure a deal then Is it is So would you,
31:25
do you think, do you estimate what a record will sell and then
31:32
backwards do the maths from there?
31:33
So if I'm going to sell, I'll sell 3 1/2 thousand copies of
31:37
this album in the UK, maybe more around the world.
31:41
How much is that going to bring in then?
31:43
This is so much I can offer. You have to do that to a degree,
31:47
but you know, maths is not my, not my strong point.
31:51
And, and, and I'm, you know, whilst I do do the sums to work
31:55
out what the sort of bare minimum is, um, it's pretty
32:00
obvious. But if you absolutely adore a
32:02
band and think and you know, the lawyer comes in and says, well,
32:06
we want this and this number is twice what you were planning on
32:11
get offering them, then you've got to have a conversation with
32:15
yourself and work out whether you are going to take this much
32:18
now larger gamble. Because as you said very
32:22
succinctly, it all is a gamble. Whether you're giving somebody 5
32:26
grand or 25 grand or 100 grand, it's all a gamble.
32:31
So you have to sort of make educated guesses.
32:33
I don't like giving bands, new bands too much money.
32:37
And I say that not because I don't want them to be
32:39
comfortable, it's because I don't want them to be in debt.
32:43
And I say, look, if if you've already made the record and
32:47
spent the money, then why are you taking an advance?
32:51
Tell me. And if it's a good answer, I'll
32:53
absolutely consider it. But if you're just going to
32:56
pocket it and go on holiday with it, then I, I don't really want
33:00
to give it to you because if you already made the record, then
33:02
why wouldn't it? Why wouldn't it make more sense
33:05
to you to be at sort of 0 with your record label?
33:09
And then as in six months time, I'll actually be giving you
33:12
royalty checks rather than saying, yeah, well, you're not
33:16
going to be earning anything for several years because you're.
33:19
So you're still so unrecouped, and what's the problem?
33:22
The problem with the music industry today is that that
33:24
labels do give in to the larger demands of the lawyer or the
33:28
manager and pay out the slightly larger advance they do find
33:32
themselves because very few first albums, very few debut
33:35
albums do great, right? They just don't because the
33:39
temperature isn't there yet. The momentum hasn't, hasn't
33:42
picked up enough. Of course, there's, there's
33:43
examples contrary to that English teacher or whatever, but
33:47
I'm sure they'll tell you they're still heavily
33:49
unreproved. I don't know because I don't
33:50
know what they've got. But you know, generally it takes
33:53
a long time to get up and running and get sales going and
33:56
the money coming in. So why would you want to put
33:59
yourself under pressure so that at the end of the first album
34:02
cycle when you had to go start, start having conversations about
34:06
album 2 and can we get an advance for album 2?
34:10
So many labels are looking at their balance sheet at that
34:14
moment and going, Yikes. We spent 50 grand on that first
34:18
record, not just on the advance, but on the marketing and the
34:21
vinyl and the this and the that and the press and with the
34:23
radio. We're 50 grand in the hole right
34:26
now. If we give them another 50 grand
34:29
when we're so unrecouped, they're going to be 100 grand
34:32
unrecouped. Do we believe this band is
34:35
actually ever going to make that 100 grand back and that that's
34:39
sort of where the industry seems to be out for me.
34:42
The majors don't care because they've got the money to just it
34:46
not matter if they're spending 304050 grand.
34:49
But small labels like mine, you can't do that because you're
34:52
going to be out of business. I mean, there's, there's two,
34:55
there's two things off the back of that.
34:57
I mean, one, I think some of the majors, particularly some of the
35:01
ones that are consolidating, they are getting back to that
35:04
point where they've seen how much they have spent.
35:07
I mean, I won't name the bands, but if you look at some of the
35:11
signings over the last few years, say to Ireland Records,
35:16
you know, and a lot of money's been spent.
35:17
And these bands on the, on the face of it have done pretty
35:20
well. You know, they've had top five
35:22
albums. But obviously the account, the
35:25
balance sheet doesn't look good. And so bands are getting signed
35:30
and getting dropped again, like like happened in the 80's.
35:33
The other thing I must mention is I mean, amidst the chaos of
35:37
the 90s when when I was Co running deceptive records and
35:42
obviously, you know, at the time people were just they were just
35:47
coming up with fanciful numbers of, you know, what cash do you
35:52
want to sign? And it almost became an ego
35:55
battle. Well, if they've signed for 50
35:57
grand, we want 60 grands. And then the next thing you
36:00
know, you know, the blue tones are worth 100 grands all of a
36:03
sudden. And amidst all this, we signed
36:07
the punk band Snuff. And I remember going to the pub
36:11
with Snuff because we were going to talk about money.
36:15
And I had the same conversation that you're, that you're saying
36:18
is about the, the less you take now, the quicker you're in
36:24
profit. And so we, we had, I was going
36:27
to say, Oh, it was a beer, mate. I think it was a serviette.
36:29
And we just, I said, how much, what do you, what do you need?
36:32
And I went, well, we want, we want a van.
36:34
All right, well, how much is how much is a van?
36:36
Well, we can get a van for, I don't know, a good one for three
36:39
grand. We've got to do a lot of
36:40
touring, right? 3 grand for that, making the
36:42
record. Then you've got to pay yourself
36:44
for this amount of time. And it all totalled it.
36:46
It came, it came to I think 20,000 lbs or something.
36:52
And then so we signed them to records for 10 and publishing
36:55
for 10. And sure enough, they're they're
36:58
in profit rather than this awful position where you once you're
37:02
in the hole and that's the record company matter that isn't
37:05
it. Who's who's going to stop
37:07
digging? Well, that that's the big
37:09
conundrum for bands is, is there is a number for most bands who
37:13
are who are up and coming where they might realise the deal is
37:18
terrible in terms of the the length that the record label
37:22
would keep it. But sometimes that number is too
37:25
is too tempting. Back in my day it was around 30
37:28
grand. So if, if a bank got offered 30,
37:32
they might buy a buy a major or a sort of pseudo major, they'd
37:37
seriously consider it rather than do a little indie deal for
37:40
five grand or 10 grand with a label like mine, because 30 Or,
37:46
you know, we could buy a car, we could buy a van, we could do
37:48
this, we could do that. It's just about, it's not going
37:50
to change your life, but it's going to make your, the next
37:54
year or two of your band's career a little bit more
37:57
comfortable. And I found that with publishing
38:00
deals, actually more so than rapid deals, 30 was the thing
38:03
that would get them out of bed. But I mean, as I said, my job
38:08
really is is yes, to run a regular.
38:10
It was actually to help bands not make the same mistakes that
38:14
I made and at least say to them when they sort of say, well, how
38:18
much you going to give us? I said, well, that's not really
38:20
the right question to be asking is what do you need?
38:23
Not what do you want because everybody wants 1,000,000 lbs,
38:25
but what do you actually need to do the things you did just like
38:29
you did there with the snuff conversation.
38:31
And then you find once you start talking in real terms about, oh,
38:36
okay, well, actually we kind of want to do this thing and then
38:39
we want to do that. We want to buy some lights so we
38:41
can do it. OK, Well, if you add that all
38:43
up, it's not a ridiculous amount of money and we can help you get
38:47
that money. And then you can go off and do
38:48
your thing and feel comfortable. And then I'm not going to feel
38:51
like, what have I done? What if?
38:54
And then I'm going to be worrying all the time about your
38:56
record sales because bands should not be worrying about
38:59
streaming numbers and record sales for a long time.
39:03
They worry about this stuff already way too much.
39:05
What? The Clash The Clash to The Clash
39:08
Sit around worrying about how many records they were going to
39:10
sell. No.
39:11
Well, not in the early days, so probably when they started to
39:13
CBS. Well, they always had two days
39:15
already when they were getting stupid money.
39:16
They did. But that's how I look at it.
39:20
Just don't give bands too much because then they'll they'll,
39:24
then they'll get dropped. That's the yeah, that's an easy
39:27
way to to get dropped. The, the, the interesting thing
39:31
thinking about some of the things that you're saying is,
39:35
you know, you're a musician, you ended up starting a record
39:38
label, but the, the characteristics of running a
39:42
record label, you have to be so many things, including now
39:45
you're part financial advisor. I think, I think for a lot of
39:49
people, multitasking has become the new normal, hasn't it?
39:55
In a way? Because you have to know so much
39:57
about a lot of things. And if you're going to make any
39:58
money, you're going to have to do different sorts of jobs.
40:01
Because I mean, even because you're, I mean, obviously you,
40:03
you, you manage artists as well now, which I mean, there's a
40:08
whole, I mean, it's a whole. There's a whole nother skill set
40:11
there isn't there and a knowledge base.
40:13
But also we spoke to Annabella Coltrick from MMS last year and
40:19
talking about challenges for managers now, not least the fact
40:22
that when you're working with new artists, it takes so long to
40:27
break. An artist these days, which
40:29
applies to you as label and manager, it takes so long to
40:33
break. And so the financial return is
40:35
could be much further down the line.
40:38
Yeah, that is a that is a massive concern for for young
40:40
managers. We do, we do.
40:44
I, I really love managing. If I'm honest, I sort of find
40:47
probably it more rewarding in in one sense than the record
40:51
labels. Obviously lovely to sign a man
40:53
and help them put their records out.
40:55
But you know, when you've been doing it 27 years it, it is very
40:58
much a kind of process. You know, you, you manufacture
41:02
the records, you put the band together with the artists who we
41:05
have an in house art designer and you know, you have the team
41:08
who all do their thing and it's very easy.
41:10
My job is really just to find the bands and then and then help
41:13
them make the record and help them with the advice they're
41:16
making the record. But when you're managing,
41:18
you're, you're involved with so many more aspects of, of their
41:21
life and their career and you can help them with so many more
41:24
things, advise them on so many more things.
41:26
And as you say, I have done a lot of stuff in my whatever 62
41:30
years and I hopefully can offer some pearls of wisdom here and
41:36
there which which some bands will will will benefit from.
41:40
Because bands are very impatient and and very impulsive.
41:44
And sometimes it's good for them to have someone like me going.
41:48
Slow down a minute. There's no mad rush.
41:51
You don't have to have the record out next month.
41:53
That would be daft because nobody knows who you are yet.
41:57
Let's build the story a little bit.
41:59
And bands are so impatient. They just want everything to
42:02
happen now. And I'm trying to sort of rein
42:04
it back in and just give them a bit of advice that might
42:07
hopefully see them have a a bit clearer of a pathway to be
42:11
successful. But you know, the way things are
42:14
right now, sometimes I do sit there going, I don't know, I
42:18
don't know whether anything anyone is doing is making that
42:20
much difference. Is having a PR person, is having
42:24
a radio plug, is it making any difference anymore?
42:28
Does anybody read the reviews? Does does anybody?
42:31
I, I'm very confused about the music business right now.
42:33
I think it's almost got to blow up and be destroyed and then
42:37
start again from from scratch because it's it's just such a
42:41
mess. Habla.
42:44
Espanol. If you've had that sound from
42:48
Babel before, I bet you do. Can I ask you an industry
43:17
related question because this is something that in our first show
43:22
of the year, we were making predictions about some of the
43:25
industry trends. And one of the stories which
43:31
myself and Stuart said, this is going to come around quite a lot
43:35
again. And I think there'll be quite a
43:36
lot of pushback for this during the course of the year.
43:39
But the majors buying up indie companies, whether that's labels
43:44
or distribution services, you know, for instance, downtown
43:49
being bought up Universal acquiring PS and I know Martin
43:53
Mills from beggars group has been very vocal about the
43:56
downsides of, you know, this type of consolidation.
44:00
What do you what do you think? And has anyone come knocking at
44:03
the door asking you to sell Bella Union to to to one of the
44:08
big boys yet? Not to one of the big boys,
44:10
thankfully, because the answer would be a firm no.
44:14
I'd rather burn it to the ground before I, before I sold out to a
44:19
major. I just think think I would be
44:21
absolutely pointless and no good for anybody.
44:24
And actually one of the reasons I moved away from PS who I had
44:29
worked with, you know, relatively successfully for, I
44:33
don't know, maybe 10 or so 12 years.
44:36
I moved away from PS last year because what for a number of
44:40
reasons, but, but, but, but, but largely because I didn't like
44:45
the influence that the universal were beginning to have because
44:50
at that point last year they were 49% shareholders of PS.
44:55
And you know, as we know now, they're, they, they fully own
44:57
it. And I'm glad I got out when I
44:59
did. Listen, there's bound to be
45:02
people who have a very good argument that say, well, look,
45:05
it's stabilized, stabilized this and that.
45:08
And there's now money for, yes, I, I get all of that.
45:11
But ultimately it's, it's for no good in my opinion, because it's
45:16
just, it takes away from what we all do at our end of the
45:21
business. And it just, it doesn't sit
45:23
right with me at all because I don't honestly believe there is
45:27
a care, a duty of care and attention to those artists.
45:30
It's just about market share. It's just about I we want to own
45:33
this because we see that this is doing well.
45:36
I don't honestly believe it's part of like, I'm just trying to
45:38
help these to help the independent community flourish.
45:42
Nonsense. So Martin Mills is absolutely
45:44
correct. And, you know, he's a very
45:46
shrewd man, Martin and, and you have to often listen great
45:50
intent to, to what he says because, well, whilst I've had
45:53
my, my run insurance with, with obviously with four ad over the
45:56
years, you know, I do think he's a very passionate supporter of
45:59
the independent scene and obviously been a huge part of
46:03
the association of independent music for many, many years.
46:05
And, and if, if Martin says, says that you have to listen
46:09
and, and, and, and make your own mind up, of course.
46:11
But my view is Martin is, is absolutely correct.
46:14
We have been approached by a couple of companies in recent
46:19
times about shareholdings. But thankfully, they're both
46:23
companies in, you know, in my, in my side of the industry, the
46:27
more independent side of the music, where I would actually,
46:30
if I felt it was a good fit, I wouldn't be averse to a
46:33
conversation about things like that.
46:34
Because I think, you know, partnering up with other people
46:37
who have similar, similar mindsets is is not necessarily a
46:42
bad thing because we all have to acknowledge that it's tough.
46:47
There is no two ways about it. I can't say, oh, yeah, we're
46:49
doing so well. Nobody's doing so well.
46:53
Idiot is going to tell you that, yes.
46:55
You know, whatever label has one or two bands that are flying out
46:59
the shelves right now, fine. They'll be doing great, but what
47:03
happens when they sign 10 more that aren't you?
47:05
You know, I've been doing this 27 years and somehow I'm still
47:08
doing it, somehow still in business.
47:10
But I can't pretend that it's easy or that the money is
47:15
sufficient to keep doing it indefinitely.
47:18
It is. It is not.
47:20
There is one more thing from the book which I like because it's
47:25
suddenly struck me that your life has come full circle.
47:29
And it's another string to your bow is that for someone who
47:34
worked in the old Beggars Banquet record shop, managed
47:38
various branches of our price records, Now you've got a Bella
47:42
Union shop just just so you can play all your own records to
47:46
people who wander in, come round from the counter, put an arm
47:50
around their shoulder and say you really will love this.
47:52
You wait till you get to track 3 on side 2.
47:55
It's a bargain at 25 lbs, Thank you very much.
47:59
Oh, no, not 25 lbs. I wouldn't charge that much
48:02
because it's our own shop. We're we're able to to pass on a
48:05
much healthier discount than that.
48:06
But no, it's a lovely thing to be able to have a record shop.
48:09
I don't work in there anymore. I'm I'm, I'm sad to say I just
48:12
don't have the time. But we do have, it's an all
48:15
female record start, record staff, record shop staff.
48:19
And I think absolutely to a yeah, every single member is in
48:24
a band either that we work with or that we manage.
48:28
So, you know, Lily from Penelope Isles works there, Holly from
48:32
Carl's works there, Dotty from Dearie works there.
48:36
So, yeah, it's a lovely thing to have.
48:38
And to be able to help artists make a little bit of extra money
48:42
every day, you know, to help their, their, their lives in, in
48:46
their, in their, the beginnings of their careers.
48:49
You know, when it is basically impossible not to have a job and
48:52
be a musician. Impossible.
48:55
So yeah, it's a, it's a lovely thing.
48:56
And we, it's a community we've built up around the shop.
49:00
We probably have an unsigned bands come in there every other
49:03
Friday, play sets at lunchtime. We have local, you know, food
49:08
shops bringing in food, free food for everyone.
49:10
So yeah, we're doing our bit to try and build a little local
49:15
community around the shop around Brighton because we, we feel
49:19
very, we feel very part of the Brighton scene now.
49:22
Yeah. I imagine also it's quite
49:25
beneficial working for a boss who when you say I need a week
49:28
off to go on tour, will say that's fine.
49:31
Yeah, exactly. Anytime, Anytime you want,
49:33
Absolutely. Yeah, thankfully there's enough
49:35
people to step in and pick up if someone does do that.
49:38
And having staff at the label who are musicians can be tricky
49:43
because you know, the label staff, you really do need them
49:46
to be there kind of all year round.
49:49
You kind of say you couldn't have the art designer going off
49:52
and going off on term for months of time, but yeah, the shop is
49:56
fine. And what's, what will the Bella
49:59
Union shop be selling this year? What's what records have you got
50:03
coming up can is it going to be a a busy year?
50:06
Do you set yourself any limits on the amount of records you put
50:10
out per month or per year? Because if you put too many out,
50:14
you're basically, you know, you're cannibalising your own
50:16
market on it. You will never.
50:19
There used to be a thing with amongst radio pluggers, it
50:21
doesn't happen now, but there used to be a thing.
50:23
You never had a 2 records out in the same week because you would
50:26
be, and I quote plugging against yourself.
50:29
And in the same way I suppose you don't want records coming
50:31
out at the same time. So that's a lot of questions.
50:35
What have you got? No, it's a great question
50:37
actually, because it is one of the things I have been accused
50:40
of in the in the, you know, the last 10 years is just putting
50:43
out too much stuff. And I think when you're a sort
50:46
of an enthusiast, it is very easy to sort of go see some
50:50
bands and you meet the band, you fall in love with them, you make
50:53
friends with them, you have them around for tea.
50:55
You're like, oh, we know we've got to work with these guys.
50:57
And then you sign them and you make the record.
50:59
And then and then you go and see another band.
51:01
And then you sort of do the same thing over and over.
51:03
And then I present them to the other people at the label and
51:07
everyone's like, oh, these are great.
51:08
But wait, can you just stop for a little minute?
51:11
Because we can't deal with all of this, this amount of bans.
51:15
So we did have some serious conversations, but really the
51:18
staff basically sort of got me around the, the table a couple
51:23
of years ago, just said, look, we've just got to slow down.
51:26
We, we don't have the bandwidth to cope with all of these
51:29
records because we were probably doing, you know, generally maybe
51:33
three or two or three a month. And, and now we, we tend to just
51:38
try and do one or at at worst two a month and occasionally
51:42
maybe it will be 3 if it's a busy month because you can't
51:45
release a record every month. But what?
51:47
Certainly one at the beginning, maybe one at the end to to give.
51:51
Oh, let the cows. That's that's, that's the,
51:58
that's the cat auditioning for a record deal.
52:02
So, yeah, you know, I think like we have slowed down a bit and
52:07
he's a really great point. You can put out too much because
52:10
obviously the PR team can't be going to the editor of Uncut 3 *
52:16
a month and going no, this one, this is the best record that's
52:20
ever been released. You know, and I I think you've
52:22
you've joked with me in the past before, you know, about my sort
52:25
of over exuberance about sort of certain bands.
52:30
And I guess that is part of my make up.
52:34
Sometimes it's probably good and sometimes it's probably bad.
52:37
If it's too, too much, it can be like, mate, you know, you said
52:41
this was the greatest record last time.
52:42
So how, how, how can this one all of a sudden be.
52:45
So I I have tempered it a little bit and I am trying to kind of
52:49
take everyone's feelings into account, make sure we don't put
52:52
out too much because that that for sure doesn't do well for the
52:56
bands. If if 2 bands are being released
53:00
at the same time, how can how possibly can can you do a good
53:02
job on both? So what have you, what have you
53:05
got? Can you, can you tell us any of
53:07
the things that you have lined up or is it or is it all still
53:09
under wraps? No, well, I mean some I can tell
53:12
you the stuff that's sort of officially been announced.
53:15
I know a band that's dear to your heart, Bambara have a new
53:19
record coming out in in in March, which is very exciting.
53:22
They, they made a new album with, with Graham from Bach
53:25
psychosis on production duties and so that is an absolutely
53:29
wonderful record. We've got Hannah Cohen, Mickey
53:32
from Lush, Mickey Bereni Trio have a new record coming out in
53:36
April. I'm sure some of your listeners
53:42
and fans will know of Nell Smith who sadly died a couple of
53:47
months back just aged 17. She made the record with the
53:52
with The Flaming Lips, the Nick Cave covers that came out a
53:54
couple of years ago and she tragically died in a car crash
54:00
back in November. And she had finished a record
54:03
that she'd made with the Brighton band, Penelope Isles,
54:07
who who who I manage, as well as release on Belle Union.
54:11
And we've, we've finished that record and with her parents very
54:15
much involved in the whole campaign, we'll be putting
54:19
Nell's record out in April and that will be announced probably
54:24
next month. So that's a bit of an exclusive
54:26
for you there. We've got an album by Sally
54:30
Potter, who who's a film director.
54:32
We've got a new Azure Affirming album coming soon.
54:35
We're working with Mark Riley and and his old mates from the
54:39
fall releasing a lot of their live tapes and, you know, live
54:44
recordings that we're putting together.
54:46
And new BC Camp Light record I'm sure will be coming later this
54:50
year too. So a lot of the same, you know,
54:53
same names and then some, some brand new ones to throw in there
54:56
as well. Certainly enough to keep you
54:59
more than busy, I would think over the coming year.
55:03
It's it's been absolutely fascinating.
55:06
Thank you so much, Simon. All the best for 2025 and I'll
55:10
I'll see you at a gig soon. See you at a gig soon mate, take
55:13
care. Simon Raymond's talking to us
55:17
this week. By the way, if the microphone
55:19
sounds different, I broke my microphone just before we sat
55:23
down to do that interview, so I'm getting a new one for next
55:27
week. Anyway, thanks once again to
55:29
Simon for putting aside some time for us.
55:32
As I mentioned, his book In One Ear is available now in
55:36
hardback, or there's an audio book version read by Simon
55:40
himself, which I'm enjoying a lot.
55:43
Thank you, Simon, and thank you for listening.
55:45
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55:48
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55:51
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55:53
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56:01
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56:05
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56:09
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56:19
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56:24
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