Latest / The You Project / #2219 The Reward Trap - Dr. Özgür Bolat

Transcript

#2219 The Reward Trap - Dr. Özgür Bolat · The You Project

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: G'day team, it's Tiffany Ann Cook. What, did I excite,
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: did I, was I too loud then?
• 0:05
  Speaker 2: Are you alright?
• 0:07
  Speaker 3: I think I was clear in my throat just as
• 0:09
  Speaker 3: you dived on in enthusiastically, so I panicked.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: That's what I do, I said are we ready and
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: you said we're ready, so I jumped in just because
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: your reactions are a bit slow. Remind me to tell
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: you later, I had a body composition test done today
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: with the lovely Kate Save. And I'm going to say
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: it right now. Sorry, Doc, we'll get to you. Yeah,
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: no problem. Is that okay? How far are you?
• 0:33
  Speaker 3: Where am I? You're in, yeah, Melbourne too? Yeah, yeah,
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: I'm in Melbourne too. Hop, step and jump a couple
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: of suburbs away from old mate here.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't want to brag, but guess what my
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: biological age is.
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: What is it?
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: You guess.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: 42.
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: Thanks for asking, 34. Come on.
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: Really?
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Really? Yeah, really. How old are you, if you
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: don't mind me asking?
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: 62. So how did you make that possible?
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: So, yeah, I mean, I just train a lot. I've
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: never had alcohol. I've never had drugs. I've never had cigarettes.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: I train seven days a week with weights. With weights?
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: Ah, strength training.
• 1:27
  Speaker 3: Ah.
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:29
  Speaker 3: In the gym.
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just, I do all the things and I haven't,
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: I've pretty much been nonstop since I was about 14
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: and my body fat is low and my, yeah, it's
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: just an, it's a combination of doing all of those things.
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: But anyway, this is not a show about my body
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: composition or biological age, but I was reasonably happy when
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: she sent me that, when she sent me that. Dr.
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: Ozgur Bolat, I'm sorry if I mangled your name, Doc,
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: but thanks so much for coming to have a chat
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: with us on the You Project. How are you?
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Good, good.
• 2:06
  Speaker 3: I'm very good. I'm very excited to be talking to you.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we are too. I've been– it's a really interesting– well,
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: all your research is interesting, but the book that you've
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: just written, I'm fascinated with. Your research, I'm fascinated with. Tiff,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: if you ever have a child– And we know that's a, well,
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: don't shake your head.
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: It's a hard no.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Well, you could.
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: It's a hard no.
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: Surely you're going to have someone in your life who
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: has one, but you should pay, you should make, we
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: should all pay attention. So can you tell us before
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: we explore your research and your book and that expansive
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: mind of yours, could you tell us a bit about
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: your background and your journey and your research beginnings and
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: why you got into the field you're in?
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was always a very successful student. I got,
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: I ranked 56th among 1 million people in the university
• 3:05
  Speaker 3: entrance exam. I got into top college.
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: Uh, after that I graduated as valedictorian, uh, with, uh,
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: I ranked number one in the old school of education.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: Then I went to Harvard for my PhD, for my
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: master's as a Fulbright scholar and TAFE scholar.
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: And I got a perfect GPA as well. There's a
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: reason I am bragging about myself.
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: No, I like it.
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: I was thinking he's straight out of the gate. He's
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: just telling us. No, that's, go on.
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: I'm interested. There's a reason. There's a reason.
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: Then I had my PhD from the University of Cambridge, UK. And,
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: and I spent one year as a, uh, visiting scholar
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: at MIT Sloan school of management. Yep. Then I got
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: the best young researcher word in New Zealand. And I
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: was very, very successful. Then I came back to Turkey, uh, Turkey.
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: Then I started to work. Then all of a sudden, uh,
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: I started to feel very anxious.
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: Like, uh, I thought to myself, everything is great. Why
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: am I, why am I anxious?
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: Then after a lot of thinking, you know, therapy and everything,
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: I realized all my happiness is based on my success. Yeah.
• 4:33
  Speaker 2: So it was, I have to be successful all the
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: time to be happy. Then I realized I am, I
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: am externally validated person. Then it's very fragile. And I said,
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: I have to change this. Then I asked this question
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: to myself, why am I like this? then I realized
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: it all boils down to parenting. If parents keep praising
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: their children, if parents keep rewarding their children, in fact,
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: they make them dependent on external motivators.
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 2: So what we need is not external motivation. What we
• 5:14
  Speaker 2: need is internal motivation. And, and then, uh, I was,
• 5:22
  Speaker 2: After my PhD, I started to think about all this
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: stuff and I got into this field and I did
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: my own research during my research academic years. And I
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: published tenor and papers.
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: About this. Then I wrote my book, The Word Trap.
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm looking forward to diving into that. I feel
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: like we live in a culture. I feel like we
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: live in a culture that is very much externally focused
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: and externally validated. And, you know, we want approval. We
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: want acceptance. We want someone to praise us. We want someone,
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: we want to feel connected to a group. We want
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: to feel seen and all of those things. And it's, Yeah,
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: that seems to be a lot of people's, including mine,
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: if I'm being honest, at times, of course. What does
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: internal validation look like? What is that? What is the
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: yin to the yang of external validation?
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: Okay. So you said something very nice. Everyone wants validation.
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: Everyone wants to be seen and accepted, okay? I think
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: there is no exception, but internal value, like, okay. Uh,
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: let's say you perform and I perform something on the stage. Yes.
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: And we both want to be seen and.
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: Liked, accepted. No problem there. If you are external again,
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: we perform again, but we both fail.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 7:10
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: It's a terrible show. If you are externally validated, you
• 7:15
  Speaker 2: will feel shame and you will go upset for a
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: week maybe. And you will doubt yourself. You will say
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: to yourself, I will never do this. Or you will
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: blame others. But if you are internally validated, you will
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: be upset. But you will not question your worth. Or
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: you will not think you are not worth of love.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: You will be upset and you will start to think,
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: what will I do differently next time? You will learn
• 7:48
  Speaker 2: from it. So you will still focus on the task.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: But if you're externally validated, you will focus on yourself.
• 7:57
  Speaker 2: And you will start to think whether you are still
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: liked or worth of love. This is the difference. And
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: parents teach you this by how they.
• 8:13
  Speaker 3: They act towards you. Yeah.
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I feel like, well, when I grew up anyway,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: 200 years ago, Tiff, when you were just a thought
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: in your mother's eye.
• 8:27
  Speaker 3: Oh, no, 34 years ago. No, 34 years ago. That's true.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right.
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: But when I was growing up, Dr. Balat, it seemed
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: very like success was about... Everything that people could see,
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: what you had and what you won and what you
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: owned and what you earned and what you look like
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: and what shape you're in physically and how pretty or
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: handsome you are or how well you do academically, all
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: the things that can be seen and observed. And people
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: would literally... say, oh, he's very successful or she's very successful,
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: and nobody's talking about anyone's internal state. Everyone's talking about
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: the external situation, circumstance, environment, or observable reality of that person.
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: It seems to be a very externalized, focused culture.
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: Sometimes, okay, I realize, as I told you, I grew up, uh,
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: as like external validated person. Then, uh, I start, I
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: tried to be an internal validated person.
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: Right. And it is not either or, or.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: Along the way, when you try to be an internal
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  Speaker 2: validated person, sometimes you fail. And when you fail, you won't,
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: judge yourself you will catch yourself and you say look
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: that's okay I was raised like this but I'm trying
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  Speaker 2: to be like this sometimes I can be like this
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  Speaker 2: sometimes not it's a journey it's not like It's not
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: like I changed. No, I'm changing. I think the journey
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: is nice. Sometimes in my birthdays, people say, make a wish.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah. And I know all this stuff for 10 years,
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: 15 years. Make a wish.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: I say, I want my book, the bestseller. Then I
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: catch myself and no, no, I changed it. I say,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: I want more joy in my life. You know, so
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: you always bring yourself to this idea. If you, you try,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: you learn and you get used to it. Like, as
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: you know, you practice this as you practice, it happens. Yes.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: I am, uh, I am, uh, less external validated, but
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: still so, but not as much as before. So this
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: is the journey.
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  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you're a work in progress like all of us, right?
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah.
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Like for me, it seems like the internal, it's
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: like internal judgment is like you're this, you're that, you're
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: not enough of this, you're too much of that versus
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: internal awareness or self-awareness, which is like, oh, okay, that's interesting,
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: that's curious.
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: Yes.
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  Speaker 1: How do I do better? How do I respond better?
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: What's a better question to ask? Why do I believe
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: that thing where we're not adding any or investing any
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: kind of value to it, good or bad. We're just
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  Speaker 1: observing it and having an awareness around it.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: And then perhaps doing something, you know, versus this critical
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  Speaker 1: self judging kind of in a dialogue versus this curiosity
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: and awareness.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: Uh, you should treat like when you treat your friends
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: with compassion, uh, you have to get out of your
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: head and look at yourself and imagine you are your friend.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: And you do, you show the same compassion and I
• 12:26
  Speaker 2: think it works. It's very, it works for me.
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: So people can try.
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: That whole, theory of mind thing of trying to understand
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: how others think and how others feel and experience um
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: my phd is on a thing called meta perception which
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: is about my ability to understand the craig experience for
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: other people or tiff's ability to be able to understand
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: what's it like being around tiff for an audience a
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: an audience of one or an audience of a hundred
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: so that That kind of social intelligence and social awareness,
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: I think that kind of connects into this. I was
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: going to ask you, obviously being a gifted student, obviously
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: you're very intelligent, very gifted and very suited to study.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: You did very well academically. I'm sure you worked hard,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: but you also clearly had a gift and a high
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: IQ and an aptitude. How did you stay motivated when
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: things came so easily? All that stuff you've got, all
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: those gifts, I don't have any of that. I had
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: to be really motivated because I was pretty much a dummy.
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: All the things that you found easy, I found hard.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: For me, it was just like work and discipline and
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: self-control and motivation and, you know, and obviously things get...
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: But for you who didn't have that, like it came easy,
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: how did you stay doing the work?
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: I think two reasons. First thing, I have a very
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: high achievement motivation. So it means... When I do something,
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: I want to achieve.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: So now I also studied very successful people and they
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: have all the same motivation.
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: They want to achieve.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: Okay. And the second reason at that time, my second
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: reason was this. I want to achieve because I want
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: to prove myself.
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: Yes. Which is a bad reason. When I look back,
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: I want to prove myself.
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: Because at that time I thought I will be loved
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: if I achieve. Yes.
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: Okay. And the third thing, I was very lucky because
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: I really, really love learning. I can't stop learning.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: Even when I fly, you know, I read.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: My book and someone sits, I get anxious that the
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: person will start talking to me.
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: Then I won't be able to read.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: So academia was my like my strength was suited to
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: academia because I love to learn and I love to
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: I love to talk about my ideas because I give
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: a lot of like seminars now like you know half
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: the year I give seminars when I'm on the stage
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: I feel my like I feel alive So my strength
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: was suited to academia. I have academic achievement motivation. Also,
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: I want to prove myself. Now, right now, still I
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: want to achieve, but not to prove myself, but to
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: contribute to people. And when I'm on the stage, in
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: the past, I used to say, I have to be
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: a very good speaker.
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: Now, when I'm on the stage, I stop and I
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: look at people. These are parents. These are teachers. These
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: are leaders. Now I will change.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: Their ideas so that they can be internally validated person
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: as well. So, yeah, I think that's why I was
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: successful in the academia. But I was, I think, anxious
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: at that time. Now I changed my perspective from achieving, sorry,
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: from proving yourself to contributing to people.
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: Then I feel much lighter.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I like that. I like that.
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: I think identity, like our sense of self, who we
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: think we are, our version of our identity is often
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: tied into achievements be they academic or sporting or something
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: else or we get our sense of self from maybe
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: in your case from being an outstanding student or academic
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: you know or like my identity when I was I
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: was a morbidly obese kid and the way that I
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: got attention and love was I tried to be funny
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: I tried to be the storyteller I tried to be
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: the cheeky lovable fat funny kid right and that was
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: kind of for a while until I changed my life
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: a bit but yeah always trying to find who I
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: am talk to me a little bit about in this
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: context of kind of internal external validation and doing things
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: and trying to belong and trying to impress people talk
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: to me a little bit about your thinking around identity
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: personal identity.
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: Yes yes it starts very early.
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: When you start to think, when you start to understand
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: other people have ideas, then personality is a reaction to
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: the environment. So one day, for instance, you are three
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: years old. You tell your parents something. They don't listen
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: to you.
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: And then you have a bottle. You throw it.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: And you get angry and parents say, okay, sorry kids,
• 18:44
  Speaker 2: tell us, we are listening now.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: At that moment, you.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: Decide when I act angry, people take me seriously.
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: Of course, it's just not one incident.
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: If it happens a lot, you try to understand and
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: it's like, okay, in order to survive, in order to
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: be seen, I.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: Need to be angry.
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: Then you make a decision.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: And it's like you make decisions like this consciously or subconsciously.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: Then if I do this, people will like me.
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: This is our person. Yeah. Yeah, sorry.
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: It's interesting because it's like the environment and the situation
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: teaches you. Like that's how smart three-year-olds are. well, if
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: I do this thing, I get this outcome. If I
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: do that other thing, I get a different outcome. I
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: get the outcome I want. So it's almost like the
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: parents are unintentionally training the child to behave badly because
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: when they behave that way, at least they get attention,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: which is what the kid wanted in the first place.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. So there was this TV series by Michael
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: Douglas called Something Methods. Do you remember that TV series?
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Michael Douglas. He's old, bro. Can you Google that, Tiff?
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: Michael Douglas Something Methods TV show.
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: Let's see what we have.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: Anyway, yeah.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And he was teaching acting and there was a
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: guy who was crying and then he said, I had
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: very difficulty in my childhood and Michael Duckworth said, I
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: have news for you.
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: The childhood is over.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So he meant, he meant, he meant, okay, in
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: your childhood, you reacted to certain things. You're growing up
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: now and you are still reacting to the things that
• 21:01
  Speaker 2: happened in the past.
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: So I think we can change this. Yeah.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: You are not a child anymore. And for instance, I
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: work with CEOs sometimes. And the CEO is very angry.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: And she has this mindset. Unless you're angry, people won't
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: listen to you. And then this happened in the past.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: And she said, look, like you are the CEO. People
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: will listen to you. You don't have to use the
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: same mechanism that you use in the past. And then
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: I asked like, when other times do people listen to you?
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: But when you listen to them, yeah, you can change
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: from being angry to respecting and listening to them. So yeah,
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: this requires, as you said, self-awareness, willing to change and
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: the courage to give up the past. Because when you
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: give up the past, You don't know how you will
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: turn out to be in the present. So this scares people.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: But again, you try, try, you make little tests, then
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: the outcome is always good.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: Tiff, how'd you go?
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: The Kaminsky method? Yes. There it is.
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: Good work. Thank you. When was that produced? I was
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: probably not born because I'm 34, so... 2018 to 2021. Oh,
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: it's pretty recent.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: I never watched one episode. You know who I was
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: thinking of? Kirk Douglas is his dad.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: I see. I wouldn't recommend watching it.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: No good?
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: No, it's very good. It's very good. But it puts
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: you in the old, I am old mindset.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: Well, I definitely don't want to watch that. I'm trying
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: to stay.
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: I watch some episodes. I really liked it. I started
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: to think about being old. Then I stopped. Yeah.
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: How do we begin? And we'll talk about your book
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: and your science around it and your messaging. But in
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: general terms, for people who are, seeking external validation or
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: they're externally motivated, you know, what I can see, touch, feel, hold, own, earn,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: that stuff. Is there a way that, like, let's personalize it.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: So if I'm that way and I want to change
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: that because I realize that No matter what I own
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: or what I get or how much money I make
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: or how good I look or think I look or
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: what I drive, I'm still anxious or I'm still not
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: fulfilled or I still don't. So I realize it's all
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: of a sudden I realize it's not about those things.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: It must be about something else. How do I turn
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: that awareness into a different kind of approach to my
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: own life where now I'm seeking something internal validation? Is
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: there a mechanism? Is there a pathway? Does it happen
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: quickly or slowly? Can I actually do it for myself?
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: Do I need external coaching or therapy?
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: I think people should go to therapies only when they
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: start to change. Most of the people go to therapies
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: and they say, okay, I'm here, change me. No, therapists
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: cannot change you. You change yourself and you need that.
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: They just support you.
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: Uh, two things is very important. Uh, one is, um,
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: a value based life. So every decision you make, uh, it,
• 25:16
  Speaker 2: it has to based on, uh, on your values.
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: Okay. There's research at Stanford.
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: They asked high school students, what is your most important value?
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: And write about it. Why it is important to you.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: And then they asked them to write this five times.
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: Over a year. And another group, they didn't write it.
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: At the end of the year, those who wrote their
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: values were much happier, less anxious, and their grades got better. Why?
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: Because when you live a value-based life, then you feel grounded.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: And when you're grounded, you don't feel anxious that much.
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: So for instance, if let's say you're a tree, if
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: I remind you of your, if I tell you, you
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: are made of your, uh, leaves, or if I tell you,
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: you are made of your, uh, what is the word?
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: Um, uh, roots. Like if I remind you of your roots,
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: you feel stronger, right?
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: So values are your, yes.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Uh, this was published in science, like the most prestigious, uh, journal.
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: So first you, uh, think about your values and when
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: you make a decision, uh, of, so it has to
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: be value-based. This is the first thing. Second thing you
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: have to, you have to create meaning. For instance, you
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: have this show. If your purpose is, if your purpose is,
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: is to be the most listened podcasts, uh, you will
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: be anxious, uh, But if your purpose is this, I will.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: Bring very interesting.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: Guests who will help my listeners be a better person
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: or change their lives.
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: Then you won't be anxious.
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: And so meaning, contribution and meaning and values. In real life,
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: let's say you are talking to your friends, you meet
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: new people.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: There's a joke at Harvard.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: There's a joke at Harvard?
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: That doesn't seem right. Are you sure?
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: There's a joke at Harvard?
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: I don't think that's right.
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: We laughed too.
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: I don't know. We laughed too. So there's a joke
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: at Harvard. How do you know someone is from Harvard?
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: They tell you, I guess. I don't know.
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: Yes, they tell you in eight seconds.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: They tell you in eight seconds.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: So when you are with your friends, not friends, like
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: in a new group, then there's an urge in you.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: Then that urge says, okay, you should tell them you're
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: from Harvard so.
• 28:31
  Speaker 3: That they accept you. And then you catch this urge.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: And then you get back and you say, I don't
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: have to prove myself to others. And I just need
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: to be myself now and enjoy the conversation. Then when
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: you're in that stage, you know, when you are relaxed,
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: people are drawn to you and you know, because like,
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: like you give out a good wipe and people are
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: drawn to you and then, and then, uh, yeah. So
• 29:07
  Speaker 2: you catch yourself do this.
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: So.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: In the big picture, meanings, contribution, and values in real life,
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: you don't have to prove yourself.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: Just be yourself and enjoy your life.
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: Have you heard of a thing, Dr. Balat, called the
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: tall poppy syndrome?
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: Tall poppy?
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: Tall poppy, like the flower? Tall poppy syndrome.
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: No.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: So it's... super prevalent in Australia, also in England less so.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: And in Australia, you don't want to brag. You don't
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: want to. So the first 60 seconds of the show
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: where I was bragging about my biological age, that's going
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: to do me more harm than good. Because Australians don't
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: like it when other Australians talk themselves up, you know. So, yeah,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: it's like it's boasting, it's bragging. And we hate that.
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: And even when somebody's done something great, they can still
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: get in trouble over here. It's a really interesting phenomenon.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: So you've got to be, yeah, you definitely don't want to.
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: Go in the first place. You should have told me
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: this before the show.
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: No, no, no, no. You're fine. You're fine. Cause everything
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: you're saying is true. But also after you did your
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: little bragging, you qualified it. You know, we both, well,
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: I didn't, I just went, I'm awesome. I'm 34 and
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: beat my chest. And now that's why we've got two
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: people left, but no, not really, but it's an interesting,
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: it's such an interesting thing that people will cheer you
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: on sometimes until you succeed and And then sometimes they
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: will resent you, which is an interesting part of the
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: human experience as well. I was thinking about, so you're
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: talking about values. And over here we talk about, and
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: in other places, but this concept, which I'm sure maybe
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: it's a little bit different in Turkish, but of living
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: in alignment, which just means I've identified my values, what's
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: important to me, what matters to me. And my choices
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: and my behavior and how I treat people and my
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: lifestyle is a reflection of those values. So if I
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: didn't tell you what my values were, but I was
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: living in alignment, you could observe me and over time,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: you would know what my values were by my behavior.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: And so we call that living an aligned life. So yeah,
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: it's really interesting to.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: Like sometimes we're chasing something, which is not a bad thing.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: It's just a human thing, I think. And we realise
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: this thing that I'm chasing, it doesn't actually align with
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: who I want to.
• 31:59
  Speaker 3: Be and how I want to be. You know, it's not.
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: And also there's the thing that we're chasing... So the what,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: the W-H-A-T, the what. But then there's the why. And
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: I think I don't really want this thing. I want
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: what I think it will bring me. So I want
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: $ 3, 000 a week, for example. Oh, it's not really about
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: the money. It's about what you think the money will
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: do for you. So the goal is actually the conduit
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: or the pathway to the thing you really want.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And, uh, my book reward trap is out in English,
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: but I have like six other books, which were not
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: translated into English yet. Uh, one of my books is
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: about happiness. And, uh, so I tried to answer everything
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: about happiness. One question I got asked a lot, does
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: money bring happiness?
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: So there's research, um, by Daniel Kahneman, Nobel Prize winner.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: His first research, okay, he did many research, but let
• 33:16
  Speaker 2: me talk about the last one.
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: Okay, so up.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: To $ 100, 000 a year, money brings happiness, okay? Yep. After 100K,
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: something very interesting happens. If you are already happy, more
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: money brings you more happiness. If you are not happy
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: after 1000 K more money does not bring happiness. So
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: it's about, uh, we have a saying in Turkey. Uh,
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: I don't know if you have it money.
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: Makes bad people worse, good people better.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: It's the same thing. Money makes happy people happier. Money
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: doesn't make unhappy people happier. So then I asked this
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: question and how should I spend my money to be happier? Again,
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: research says two things, spend your money on the activities,
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: not things.
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: And secondly, spend your money to buy time. It's very interesting.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: So if you can buy time with your money, you're
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: much happier. For instance, let's say you're at the airport.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: There's a plane four hours earlier. In order to change
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: your tickets, you have to pay $ 100. If you pay that,
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: To buy four hours, you are happier. So spend your
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: money on the activities. So activities is symptom.
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: The real thing is buy money, sorry, use your money
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: to buy experience. So, yeah.
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: I think this is anecdotal. This is not research, everyone.
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: This is Craig science. I think spending money on people
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: you love, that makes me happy. I would think that
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: would be right. Like when I buy my mum things,
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: it gives me way more pleasure than if I spent
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: the same amount of money on myself. Like, in fact,
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: when I, I don't buy myself things much at all.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: I just, cause I really don't need much, you know,
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: but yes, buy my mum something and everything I buy
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: her gives her joy. Like she just, she loves stuff,
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: but yeah, it's.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: Not, it's not Craig science. This paper was published in
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: the journal Science. Again, the top journal. They gave $ 10
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: to everyone or $ 20. It doesn't matter. And they said,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: spend this on others. Spend this on yourself. Those who
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: spend it on others were much happier. There's a real science.
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: Real science. The reason is this. People are happier when
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: they feel happy. a part of universe or a part
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: of humanity, a part of community. And there's also good research.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: Those who believe in oneness, whether you are religious or not,
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: it doesn't matter. In oneness, then you are part of
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: a big universe. Those who believe in this are much happier.
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: So interesting. So if you believe that you are part
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: of something bigger than you, So it's not just you,
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: it's like you're a cell in an organism, metaphorically speaking. Okay,
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: so Dr. Blatt has got a new book out, brand new,
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: like last couple of weeks called The Reward Trap. I mean,
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: in that, among other things, many things, he talks about
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: the idea or the argument that reward and praise are
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: not always the best thing for building the kind of
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: outcomes that we want to build with kids. So are
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: they ever a good idea? Rewards and praise, is it
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: ever a good idea or always doesn't produce a good outcome?
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: Sometimes. So sometimes. I will tell you when.
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: So....
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: Let's say the child doesn't want to do his homework
• 37:37
  Speaker 3: or her homework.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: And what is the, what should we do? The first
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: thing we should do is to understand why, right? He
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: doesn't want to do it and help the child. But
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: if you are only interested in the behavior or compliance
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: of then you buy compliance with other words. And you say,
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: if you do your homework, I will give you one
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: hour extra screen time.
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: And what happened here? What happened?
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: I offered a bribe and I bought compliance. It is
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: not motivation. What I want is motivation, ownership, engagement, and commitment.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: So if you're only interested in getting things done, The
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: words work, but if you are interested in intrinsic motivation
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: and ownership, it rarely works. It sometimes works, but it
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: rarely works. What I need, I have to create intrinsic motivation.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: So I have to ask the child why he or
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: she doesn't want to do it. Like let's say the
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: child says it's too difficult. If it is too difficult
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: and if the child can't do it, what he or
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: she needs support, not reward. Uh, let's say the child
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: said it's very, very uninteresting and it's true. Most of
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: the time homework is very boring and you have to
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: make it interesting. You have to turn it in into
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: exploration project. So, uh, for instance, if it is about
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: first world war, you say like, why do people go
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: to war?
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: Why did they call.
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: It world war because there's a disagreement sometimes people say
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: it's not.
• 39:38
  Speaker 3: World war why did they call it first.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: And what did they call it before the second world
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: war happened so You make it interesting. If it is
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: too easy, you have to talk to the teacher or
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: the child needs to talk to the teacher so that
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: the teacher gives more challenging homework. So what he needs
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: here is challenge, not rewards. So when you give a reward,
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: you're also avoiding the real problem. You are just getting
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: things done. It's not motivation. And there's research in my book,
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: I reported in my book, and 70% of adults believe
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: it creates motivation.
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: Wrongly. It doesn't create motivation, it creates compliance. I think.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: Most of the literature, almost all the literature about rewarding
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: is about motivation. I also look at it in terms
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: of self-esteem and personality structure. for instance let's say you
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: are my son you say can you give me can
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: you buy me a bicycle and I say if you
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: get all A's I will give you a bicycle and
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: you start to think why does my father want something
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: in return why does he not buy it just because
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: he loves me it's conditional love then your self-esteem is
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: fragile and then In terms of personality structure, if you
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: get rewards for everything, you learn life is transaction, you
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: lose values, and you become a person who is seeking
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: approval all the time.
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: At about what age? Because it seems to me this,
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: like with a five-year-old, this is not going to work.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: Because they're not going, oh, I see the benefits. Dad,
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: I understand the psychology. About what age would you start
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: talking about intrinsic motivation with a child?
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: You don't need to talk to a child about intrinsic motivation.
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: Children at that age, four or five, they are already
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: intrinsically motivated. They ask questions all the time. They want
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: to learn all the time. They explore all the time.
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: They can't stop doing things. They want to help their parents.
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: If you do something, your child will come. Dada, dada,
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: let me do it. And if you stop children from
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: helping you between the ages of three and six, then
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: they don't develop the discipline. And if you're a controlling parent,
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: if you do everything for them, then they stop doing
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: things for themselves.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: It's so interesting over the long term, you know, and
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: I know it's very different now to when I was
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: a child and when I was a teenager and when
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: I was a young man and all of those things.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: But yeah, it, It seems to me that doing everything
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: for your kid doesn't help your kid develop or understand
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: or build resilience or awareness or competence. It's like if
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: they never have to deal with anything hard or uncomfortable,
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: when they step out of the parental bubble and into
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: the real world, they would seem to be ill-equipped for
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: the real world, which is uncomfortable, which is inconvenient, and
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: which doesn't care about their feelings.
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and it happens a lot all over the world.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: Parents are becoming more controlling. I don't know if it
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: is the case in Melbourne.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. I mean, look, I don't like
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: to judge anyone's parenting because I'm not a parent and
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: I've got enough of my own bullshit to manage, but,
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: you know, I think it's, you know, like as an
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: educator myself and as a coach and, I literally have
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: worked with professional sporting teams, professional athletes, so literally a
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: coach in that capacity. But I want to help prepare
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: people for the reality of what they need to do.
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: So I can't do the work for them. I can't
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: do the training for them. I can't give them a
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: good mindset. I can't develop the emotional kind of strength
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: that they need. So you're literally almost... you know, the
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: coach or the motivator in that sense perhaps. But, you know,
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: like for me, all of the stuff that I have developed,
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: my understanding, my knowledge, my resilience, my ability to perform
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: under pressure, to make hard decisions and do hard things
• 44:41
  Speaker 1: is a byproduct of doing hard things. Like you can't
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: get good at what you won't do. You can't get
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: good at the thing that you won't do. So all
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: of a sudden you're thrust into the real world. You're
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: not a child anymore and you're in these situations and
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: environments that demand a lot more of you than you
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: have because you haven't had to deal with some people,
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: real adversity, and now they have it and mum and
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: dad are not there to protect them.
• 45:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: So when you help them when they don't ask help,
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: When you compare them, when you praise them, because they
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: become more, they become less competent. Because when you praise,
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: when you praise, it is about the performance, right? When
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: you praise someone, when they did something good. So again,
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: you are changing the focus from Mastery learning to performance.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: So those who are praise either give up or they
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: become very successful, but they pay a cost anxiety.
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: They are always about the performance.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: And, and when you praise all the time, then the
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: child becomes a approval seeking. In some cases, narcissistic.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 46:20
  Speaker 2: And when you praise someone or some kids, they feel shameful.
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: When you praise them, they feel shameful. Sometimes they get
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: anxious because praising... Okay, let's start with the shame. Shameful,
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: like shy children. When you praise them, shy children don't
• 46:40
  Speaker 2: want to be in the spotlight. When you praise them,
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: you put them in the spotlight. They feel even more shy.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: Some kids just want to move at their pace. When
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: you praise them, you put extra expectations and they feel
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: they won't be able to live up to it.
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: Then get anxious.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: So rather than just praising kids, you can give feedback
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: or you can ask, like, tell me about this.
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: You can like, uh, you.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: Can be interested in their lives or you can ask
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: them like, how do you think you did? So no judgment,
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: just conversation. Uh, sometimes when I say people, my book
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: is out in English. Some of them say, Oh, congratulations.
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: Thank you. Some of them say, Oh really? What's that about? Uh,
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: can we read it? And, you know, they're interested.
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: They don't feel like judging or saying, you know, good luck, congratulations.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: They are interested.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: Was it an interesting process to publish your first book
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: in English?
• 47:55
  Speaker 3: Very difficult process. Very difficult process.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: And people told me no nonfiction book was published from Turkey.
• 48:06
  Speaker 3: And I said, wow, you know me, I like challenges.
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: And I think I teach this mindset to young adults
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: as well. If something has never been done, one child says, oh, okay,
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: it was never done, so I can't do it. The
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: other child say, if it wasn't done, I can't do it.
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: So I can be the first to do it. Yeah, yeah.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: Part of me feels a little bit like, and there's
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: no judgment in this, I could be wrong, but the
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: option A of praise and rewards, it's a much easier path.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: Like it's like here, just give, you know, just give
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: them the cookie, give them the cake, give them the
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: television or give them the laptop or the phone or,
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: So I kind of understand that because, you know, the
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: parents already exhausted. He or she has had a big day.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: They're frustrated. They're tired. And it's like they know they
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: can just hand something over. and the kid will.
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: Comply yeah so as I said we're looking for compliance
• 49:27
  Speaker 4: but if you do the easy things now things will.
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: Get much more difficult in the future if you do
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: the hard thing now things will be easier in the
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: future the same with sports like if you exercise now
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: things will be easier when you're old if you don't
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: exercise now things will be if you choose the easy
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: path now not exercise then things will.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: Worse in the future hope you're paying attention Tiff taking
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: notes buddy I'm taking notes hope you're paying attention you
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: should start exercising you should give up the cigarettes and
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: the booze and the cake Hey, hey. Don't pass the catch.
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: Maybe join a gym. So the name of the book, everyone,
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: is called The Reward Trap. Is there an audio version, Dr.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: Ballard?
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: Not yet.
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: Well, we'll be looking forward to that. But it's out
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: in paperback now, so I'm sure that's in most amazing bookstores.
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: And evil. Awesome.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: It's been nice to talk to you, and congratulations on
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: doing something that nobody else in Turkey has done. And
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: I hope you sell lots of books, and we'll say
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: goodbye off air, but we appreciate you having a chat
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: with us on the You Project.
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much for having me here. Thank you.
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: Appreciate it.
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: Appreciate it.