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Anti Psychonaut with Richard Ruach & Collin Conkwright · The Occult Rejects

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: You see somethings are going to happen? What What's gonna happen?
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: What a.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Occult Rejects. This episode we got
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: two bangers with us. We got two big guests and
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: two returning guys that have only had on the show
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: once but already already loved what they brought together and
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: I can't wait to see what they do together as
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: a team. But before we get to Colin and Richard,
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: let me introduce the other rejects. And we got my
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: man the Headless Giant. What is going on? Sir? How
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: are you?
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: How's it going? You can find me on YouTube on Twitter,
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: And I've got a bunch of shows tomorrow. I'm doing
• 0:56
  Speaker 3: the trialogue with either Indigo and hopefully Recard Calbodio, and
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: we're going to be talking about any sort of topics
• 1:03
  Speaker 3: and usually they all relate back to each other. Then
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: I got seven seven seven on Tuesdays with Nick and
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: we go through the Kabbala of Alistair Crowley, which is
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: a very interesting show. And then the mail Bags on Thursday.
• 1:15
  Speaker 3: Head List is magical mail Bag. We go over some
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: of your emails about occult experiences that you can send
• 1:20
  Speaker 3: to us at the Headless Giant Podcast at gmail dot com.
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: And also we're doing a remote viewing audience participation, so
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: definitely check those out.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, so thank you for thank you
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: for joining us today. And Ethan Indigo, what is going on?
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: Please let everybody know what they can find all your
• 1:38
  Speaker 1: amazing work and your books.
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: Salute everybody. Thank you Nick for putting all this together,
• 1:43
  Speaker 4: and thank you guys for being here. I know this
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: is going to be awesome topic. It's very contrarian for
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: most of the things up there right now, so appreciate it.
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: Ethan Indigo Smith on all the social media pretty easy
• 1:58
  Speaker 4: to find. And yeah, I like to get together with
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: ad Listen Ricarda every week and always like to be
• 2:05
  Speaker 4: on any show with the Colt Reject. So appreciate you guys.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: Thank you so appreciating making it.
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: Oh yeah, my books, I got plenty of books I
• 2:14
  Speaker 4: forgot even even as your minded me, Nick, I forgot.
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: The Geometry of Energy is actually a free book right
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: now if if people want to check it.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: Out, so well, that is awesome, dude, nice, very nice. Yeah,
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: definitely go check out Ethan's books. I mean, he's got
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: a fuck ton of them. Actually he never pulls them,
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: but uh, thank you Ethan. And I guess before I
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: introduced them to I guess for the listeners, I just
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: want to let them know that I think, well, I'm
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: going to ask see how everybody else is feeling. But
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: there's a good possibility we might be going live at
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: eight thirty in the fucking morning tomorrow morning. We got
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: David James Smith coming on, and I guess I coordinated
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: with him and somehow, I guess eight thirty sounded like
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: a good time tomorrow. So we got all of us
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: and sky Mathis will be joining us. So I have
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: no problem going live. But if everybody else is functioning, uh,
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: you know, maybe we'll go live and you can catch
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: us tomorrow morning if you're up. Uh. Now let's move
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: on to the guests. Uh, we got Richard Ruac. What
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: is going on? Sir? How are you please let everybody
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: know where they can find all your amazing work?
• 3:12
  Speaker 5: How do you have?
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: I'm Richard live live from Dranalake Castle.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: Uh.
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  Speaker 2: You can find me on YouTube, you can find me
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: on substack, can find me on Twitter or x as
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: they call it nowadays. Yeah, I make I make some
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: silly content and uh, you know usually join me on Sundays,
• 3:29
  Speaker 2: this time for a little malope whole screen. But I
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: gave that up today because I need to we need
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: to definitely fally prove once and for all that the
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: true key to spirituality is not psychedelics but male patent boldness.
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: Let's go.
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: Let's sorry everyone else, but that's the key.
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: That's the key, Yo, I shit you not. Earlier I
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: was thinking, I was like, Yo, it was like if
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: like if I came on the show too. I was like,
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: you know, how many bold motherfucker is I going to
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: be on the show tonight? I was thinking about that.
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: I was like, yo, is there something up with a
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: cult this and going bold fucking weird? But Richard, thank
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: you so much for coming on. Man. You did a
• 4:04
  Speaker 1: great job when you came on for the Rose Accrucianism.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: Everybody loved You're already a fan favorite, so I'm really
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: looking forward to having you back on, especially for this topic.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: And finally other guests, another one who's been on before.
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: I had a great time with the dude, everybody loved
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: it as well, and looking forward to hopefully working with
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: them more often. Colin Concrete, please let everybody know where
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: they can find your show and let them know where
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: you're going to be speaking in April.
• 4:28
  Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, thanks for having me on once again, Colin Concrete.
• 4:32
  Speaker 5: You can find me an American esoteric on YouTube, substack writer,
• 4:36
  Speaker 5: researcher going on over twelve years now. So glad to
• 4:40
  Speaker 5: have a you know, an avenue to actually get this
• 4:42
  Speaker 5: get this material out there. I'll be speaking at the
• 4:45
  Speaker 5: Southeastern Masonic Symposium on April twenty fifth at the Ashville
• 4:51
  Speaker 5: Masonic Lodge. So go check that out. If you look
• 4:54
  Speaker 5: it up, you'll see an event bright link and there's
• 4:57
  Speaker 5: like digital links. You don't have to be a Freemason
• 5:00
  Speaker 5: to attend, so that that should be really really fun.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm yeah, definitely check it out. We got uh,
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: we got Colin Concrete speaking, Mike Baker will be there,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: Tom Carter, and the keynote speaker will be John Michael Greer.
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: I will be there, so if you show up, I'll
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: smoke one with you. If you happen to be a
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: fan of the show, Ma Me Believing TOSSI a T shirt,
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: So uh yeah, come through. It should be fun and
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: uh yeah all that so guys anti psych on not
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: I know I was saying to you guys earlier, it's
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: a very interesting topic to do. I'm totally down with it.
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: A couple of weeks ago I had somebody on that
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: was completely other way, and I do appreciate my opinion.
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: I don't think the drugs are needed. It was still
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: an interesting topic, so I appreciate you guys coming on
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: and actually covering it the other way. So I guess
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: maybe we'll start with Richard. I guess what was it
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: that made you kind of like think about bringing this
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: at the table? Do you think it's like something that
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: needs to be talked about nowadays?
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: Yes, I'm very because I'm very passionate about the work,
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: and one thing I don't want for other people is
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: to get stuck like I love. There's a Jorge Lewis Borgius,
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: the author. There's like one line in one of his
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: stories where he says something like he's a bit of
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: a neo gnostic, where he says something like, you know,
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: even if I be condemned to Hell, let heaven exist
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: for others. It's like, even if even if I don't
• 6:29
  Speaker 2: make it, it's like someone else surely can. And so
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: where I see dead ends and you know, the ultimate
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: dead end is the path with no effort for the
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: path with no obstacles, the path with no obstacles away.
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: I always feel like the easiest way doesn't work out
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  Speaker 1: the best.
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, exactly, And a lot of people it has
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: become a modern meme of mixing drugs and substances with
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: spiritual and a lot of them they go back into
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: history and cherry pick or and say that they're doing this,
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: and it's it's the exact same thing, just like the
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: Elusian mysteries. We're doing the exact same thing by you know,
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: taking heroin and LSD and going to a rave. No,
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: it's these things, and it's I want to I want
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: to preface as well. They have their place, but they
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: need to be in their place. Anything out of their
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: out of its place, becomes all consuming and fundamentally damaging.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: And so through this talk or throughout like you know,
• 7:34
  Speaker 2: I'll back and forth, I wanna I want to handle
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: the home my thesis that drugs can be used for healing,
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: certainly psychedelics can be used for healing. There is a
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: therapeutic benefit two these uh two LSD, two d MT
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: two ayahuasca. Whatever there is certainly therapeutic benefits to them.
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  Speaker 2: But healing is not the same as regeneration. Creating a
• 8:03
  Speaker 2: new organ or regrowing an arm is very different from
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: healing trauma or a scratch. And so you know, if healing,
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: if you have a baseline number zero and you come sick,
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: you go minus, you go minus ten, minus twenty. Healing
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  Speaker 2: brings you back to zero. I'm not interested in that.
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  Speaker 2: What takes you beyond zero, What takes you to plus
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  Speaker 2: ten plus twenty plus one hundred, What takes you all
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  Speaker 2: the way to the sky, to the absolute, to the
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  Speaker 2: different dimensions, to the heavens, What takes you beyond merely human,
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  Speaker 2: I'm not interested in. And this is and this is
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: going to sound harsh, but I think people we need
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: to be harsh. There's been too much flower, flower and hugs.
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: I think I need to say it's being a loser
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: and then becoming a normal person has nothing to do
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: with spirituality or initiation. And it's it's great, it's great
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  Speaker 2: that your cousin who was you know, didn't have a
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: job and was broken person went to an ajuasca shaman
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: and now he's a functioning member of society. But that
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: has nothing to do with initiation, and that's what I
• 9:08
  Speaker 2: hope we can talk about today.
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  Speaker 1: Very well, said sir. I like that. Uh, Colin, what
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: about you?
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm I'm pretty much in agreement with with Richard
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  Speaker 5: on on a lot of this. You know, it's I
• 9:24
  Speaker 5: think the the issue is because a lot of folks
• 9:28
  Speaker 5: that are that are pretty well read in this stuff,
• 9:30
  Speaker 5: and they're they're they're kind of open minded. You know,
• 9:34
  Speaker 5: maybe they'll maybe they'll take a psychedelic and they don't
• 9:36
  Speaker 5: form a super big dogmatic opinion about it. But but
• 9:40
  Speaker 5: the issue is sort of always with this kind of
• 9:42
  Speaker 5: dogmatism and whatnot. So you'll get a lot of people that,
• 9:46
  Speaker 5: you know, they'll have their psychedelic experience, but they won't
• 9:49
  Speaker 5: have any kind of natural experience that this sort of
• 9:52
  Speaker 5: equates to that. And then it's really easy from from
• 9:55
  Speaker 5: that perspective to be like, oh, this must be this
• 9:59
  Speaker 5: is what the mysteries about, this is why people have religion,
• 10:02
  Speaker 5: et cetera, et cetera. It becomes this blanket that you
• 10:04
  Speaker 5: throw on everything. This is usually always an incorrect thing
• 10:08
  Speaker 5: to do with with any kind of conclusion, is to
• 10:11
  Speaker 5: just just throw it out there. Is like this is
• 10:13
  Speaker 5: the end all be all. So the big, the big
• 10:16
  Speaker 5: critique here is against like the psychedelic maximalists, the ones
• 10:20
  Speaker 5: that you want to say it's it's all psychedelics, it
• 10:23
  Speaker 5: must have originated from psychedelics. The only time you can
• 10:25
  Speaker 5: see entities and communicate with these other intelligences is during
• 10:29
  Speaker 5: these radical states of being on psychedelics. And that's just
• 10:34
  Speaker 5: reductionary and dogmatic and everything else. And it's just not
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: it's not the case. So a lot of people want
• 10:42
  Speaker 5: to impose that on the Eleusinian mysteries in particular. But
• 10:46
  Speaker 5: of course there was a lot of other mystery rights
• 10:49
  Speaker 5: and and you know, ceremonial rights going around, especially the
• 10:53
  Speaker 5: Eastern Mediterranean, you know, in the ancient world, and a
• 10:57
  Speaker 5: lot of the actual initiates of those mysteries wrote about them,
• 11:01
  Speaker 5: and we have their extracts. You know, even though we've
• 11:03
  Speaker 5: lost ninety nine point nine percent of all ancient literature
• 11:07
  Speaker 5: from all the languages, you know, we still have these, uh,
• 11:11
  Speaker 5: these rich descriptions of the mysteries. And of course, being
• 11:17
  Speaker 5: that they're mysteries, they're always vowed to secrecy to some degree,
• 11:21
  Speaker 5: so they you know, usually the initiates, as we see
• 11:24
  Speaker 5: with Plutarch, even Herodotus. Right, they'll come up to this
• 11:27
  Speaker 5: point and then they'll say we can say no more. Right,
• 11:29
  Speaker 5: that's just freemasons do that till this day. That's a
• 11:32
  Speaker 5: common practice in these kind of initiatory rights. But from
• 11:35
  Speaker 5: the descriptions that we do have, for instance, the one
• 11:38
  Speaker 5: I'm going to read at some point tonight from Strabo,
• 11:41
  Speaker 5: which is very lengthy, and from a lot of these
• 11:45
  Speaker 5: other descriptions, you know, we get the idea that when
• 11:49
  Speaker 5: these rights were performed correctly, So for like the Olusinian rites,
• 11:53
  Speaker 5: there was like thirty thousand people that could see a
• 11:57
  Speaker 5: certain drama play out. Then there was three thousand, and
• 12:00
  Speaker 5: then it got reduced to like a handful of people
• 12:02
  Speaker 5: that could actually get initiated in the teleisterion, right, And
• 12:07
  Speaker 5: so those are the individuals that when I'm talking about
• 12:11
  Speaker 5: what is happening in the mysteries and these initiat initiation rights,
• 12:14
  Speaker 5: is that smaller percentage of the initiates there. And the
• 12:20
  Speaker 5: description is it basically results in the absence of a
• 12:25
  Speaker 5: fear of death and the coming close to us, to
• 12:29
  Speaker 5: a state quite close to death and realizing immortality. And
• 12:34
  Speaker 5: then you're then you come back with a whole different perspective,
• 12:37
  Speaker 5: and maybe in this visionary experience you've encountered gods and
• 12:40
  Speaker 5: goddesses and so forth. So that's that indicates that there's
• 12:44
  Speaker 5: this radical experience going on, right. And here's the deal.
• 12:49
  Speaker 5: It's if you think it's just a psychedelic, you know,
• 12:52
  Speaker 5: because all it takes for a psychedelic is you just
• 12:54
  Speaker 5: swallow something and then there's an experience after that. But
• 12:58
  Speaker 5: for these mysteries, in some cases, people were preparing for
• 13:01
  Speaker 5: six months in advance. Right. They're fasting, they're marching, you know, along,
• 13:06
  Speaker 5: they're they're conversing with people from all of these different countries,
• 13:10
  Speaker 5: they're doing all of these practices. There's a there's a
• 13:13
  Speaker 5: level of anticipation there. It's like hitting you on all
• 13:16
  Speaker 5: of these different sensory stimuli. Right. So, for instance, in
• 13:20
  Speaker 5: Strabo's uh description of the mysteries is he he says
• 13:25
  Speaker 5: that you know, they're performed kind of in accordance with
• 13:27
  Speaker 5: like a festival, and in that, you know the candidates
• 13:31
  Speaker 5: that will be singing and dancing going on over here,
• 13:33
  Speaker 5: there will be an oration over there, deep discussion about
• 13:36
  Speaker 5: something over here, you know, singing and chanting kind of
• 13:40
  Speaker 5: getting out of your comfort zone, altering your state of being. Meanwhile,
• 13:43
  Speaker 5: there's all this anticipation there, there's like this group mindset mentality.
• 13:47
  Speaker 5: So all of these you know, there's no drug that
• 13:50
  Speaker 5: is needed here. These are just like natural stimuli coming
• 13:54
  Speaker 5: in and you know, those in the in and of
• 13:58
  Speaker 5: themselves and lead to these radical experiences, even out of
• 14:03
  Speaker 5: body experiences and so on. And we you know, we
• 14:06
  Speaker 5: have good even modern institutions, let's say the Monroe Institute
• 14:10
  Speaker 5: and so forth, they don't require psychedelics for any of
• 14:13
  Speaker 5: their out of body experience training and this or that.
• 14:16
  Speaker 5: So it's it's just objectively, the psychedelic maximalist argument is
• 14:22
  Speaker 5: just incorrect in terms of the source material and the
• 14:25
  Speaker 5: available scientific data that we have right now. So it's
• 14:29
  Speaker 5: it's just kind of like it just gets disappointing. And
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: I think Richard agrees with me here, is that it's
• 14:34
  Speaker 5: disappointing that people want to, you know, corner everything to
• 14:38
  Speaker 5: the psychedelics when there's so much easily accessible data out
• 14:42
  Speaker 5: there that just says otherwise, right, And so that's you know,
• 14:45
  Speaker 5: that's kind of where I begin my kind of approach
• 14:50
  Speaker 5: to this. This whole thing.
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: Well fellas oh, I was gonna say that from the
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: sort of alchemical perspective, it's dose that makes the poison.
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: And living in a democratic society where you've got to
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: change these laws and do this and that so that
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: you can have the freedom to take a substance, what
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: you find is that people are overdosing on the sales
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: pitch for why these things need to be legalized. Whereas
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: if you had, you know, sort of a society that
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: didn't view putting substances in your body like this as
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: being a bad thing, I think the rationale would be
• 15:27
  Speaker 3: to moderate more. But I think it's the sales pitch
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: that really ruins it for everybody, because you have to
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: create an overwhelming intellectual force to get anything done. Whereas,
• 15:40
  Speaker 3: you know, in a different situation, let's say the Ollucinian mysteries,
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: it wasn't that big of a deal to have, you know,
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: a small amount of psychedelic in the wine and then
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: you know, go from there, as opposed to this being
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: the only path now because that's what everybody's talking about.
• 15:59
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, there's there's a there's a popularity to the
• 16:02
  Speaker 5: psychedelics now that is uh sort of it's it's very
• 16:06
  Speaker 5: indicative of the kind of limitations that that we live under,
• 16:10
  Speaker 5: at least in terms of our belief systems, and like
• 16:12
  Speaker 5: what is you know, what our daily life uh looks like.
• 16:16
  Speaker 5: So it's like, you know, the kind of the kind
• 16:20
  Speaker 5: of culture that that we're in, we're sort of masters
• 16:22
  Speaker 5: of limitations, and we love these easy fixes. We love
• 16:25
  Speaker 5: these quick gratifications and stuff, especially if it if it
• 16:29
  Speaker 5: meets our physical desires and if we can you know,
• 16:32
  Speaker 5: incorporate it into some erotic fantasy and things like this.
• 16:36
  Speaker 5: So that's that's sort of an abuse, an abuse of
• 16:39
  Speaker 5: these things. And it's like, you know, it's one thing
• 16:42
  Speaker 5: to do that, do it once or twice and and whatnot,
• 16:45
  Speaker 5: but then you can get into a sort of psychedelic
• 16:49
  Speaker 5: induced mental mental illness, and you know, so there's a
• 16:52
  Speaker 5: danger aspect of it of it there that the sort
• 16:55
  Speaker 5: of recreational community, you know, Yeah, we need to talk
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: about that, the danger see or the set and setting.
• 17:01
  Speaker 5: So apply all of these you know, standards of safety.
• 17:04
  Speaker 5: But you know, I can steal man the psyche the
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: pro psychedelic argument. I can never steel man the psychedelic
• 17:10
  Speaker 5: maximalist argument that it's only that right, I can because
• 17:13
  Speaker 5: that's clearly not the case. But psychedelics have a place
• 17:18
  Speaker 5: here and they do occasionally come up, and you know,
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: the ancient literature and these very bizarre you know, it's
• 17:24
  Speaker 5: like in the Pika Trix there's this thing like, you know,
• 17:28
  Speaker 5: one of the different hermes is produces this this like
• 17:32
  Speaker 5: psychedelic oil by throwing opium and human blood and like
• 17:37
  Speaker 5: sesame oil into a jar with a head, putting it
• 17:41
  Speaker 5: over charcoals for twenty four hours and then you know,
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: straining the liquid and if you rub it on you
• 17:47
  Speaker 5: you it says you will see whatever you want to see,
• 17:49
  Speaker 5: and if you ingest it, you will see whatever you
• 17:51
  Speaker 5: want to see. So it's like, we don't really know
• 17:53
  Speaker 5: what substance he's talking about, but it is it is
• 17:56
  Speaker 5: at least kind of indicative that, okay, you know, someone
• 17:59
  Speaker 5: somewhat where in this kind of milieu possibly possess some
• 18:04
  Speaker 5: kind of substance that they could see visions with and
• 18:06
  Speaker 5: everything else. But usually when I find these these indications
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: of some kind of psychedelic going on, it's not clear.
• 18:15
  Speaker 5: It's not really telling you that the kaikon is you know,
• 18:18
  Speaker 5: it is what is doing this, It is what is
• 18:22
  Speaker 5: allowing you to like not fear death. It's never that clear,
• 18:25
  Speaker 5: and you would think that it would be that clear
• 18:28
  Speaker 5: if it was the the end all be all, And
• 18:30
  Speaker 5: that's that's the issue, is that, like even Brian murra
• 18:33
  Speaker 5: Rescues Immortality Key, you know, we come so far into
• 18:37
  Speaker 5: that book and yet we're so inconclusive. And don't get
• 18:40
  Speaker 5: me wrong, I love the scholarly effort that it takes
• 18:43
  Speaker 5: to try to make these makes these things. You know,
• 18:45
  Speaker 5: let them please continue your research, you know, because I'm
• 18:48
  Speaker 5: interested in finding the truth. And like, if we can't
• 18:51
  Speaker 5: find that the kaikion isn't isn't what you know, isn't
• 18:55
  Speaker 5: like an l I LSD kind of thing, then we're
• 18:58
  Speaker 5: sort of gonna have to do away with that and
• 18:59
  Speaker 5: get right back to, you know, what the initiates themselves
• 19:03
  Speaker 5: were telling it was going on.
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: So yeah, if I can add to that as well.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: One of the other problems with modern society is, as
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: opposed to these ancient societies which had these initiatic cults,
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: in modern society we fundamentally have a materialist metaphysics. And
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: this is incredibly problematic as well, because the ancient sore
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: of the spirit world, they had an understanding they weren't
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: all atheists In modern day society, there's this reaction against
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: the institutionalized religions, like we don't want a priest class
• 19:41
  Speaker 2: regulating access to the other world.
• 19:45
  Speaker 5: But the problem of.
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: That then there becomes this kind of atheistic thing of
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: is does that world even exist? And some people get
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: it in their heads that the only way to kind
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: of break the veil becomes psychedelics. It's almost like this
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: latent materialism within psychedelics. The you know, oh, the beings,
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: the ghosts, the goblins, gods, angels, they don't really exist.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: They're just part of your mind or you can only
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: use psych It's something material, It's something external to myself
• 20:17
  Speaker 2: that I put into my interior to change the interior thing.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Whereas in the initiatic schools there were always techniques, a technology,
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: a system, an engine that's internal that uses the internal
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: to change the internal, rather than getting an external force
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: to change the external. So I and that's another reason
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: why I react against psychedelics and the use of drugs,
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: is because to me, I see a subtle materialism behind them.
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: It's like, you need to use this this to get
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: to the spirit world.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: I've even which I think is kind of funny. I
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: think I've seen it said about Jesus and maybe other
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: people that they were supposedly taking mushrooms and that's how
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: they had their experience. It's just like, you know what
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: I'm saying, It's just like, oh, I guess you got
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: to do it that way to be like that. It's
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: just like what you can't even give that guy credit
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: and say you did it their meditations.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: My reaction against that is always, look, look, buddy, if
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: if it really was the be all and endul the
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: Bible wouldn't exist, the daldi ching wouldn't exist, the vaders
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: wouldn't exist. There would be no Buddha Sutras because you
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: wouldn't need teachings. There would just be stories of wise
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: men going around popping mushrooms in people's mouths. Like we
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: wouldn't have any sacred texts because we wouldn't need them.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: It would just all be mushrooms, just be mushroom tea,
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: different techniques for mushroom tea. And yet we have these
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: sacred texts, We have systems, We have manuals for how
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: to meditate, for how to do prayer, for ceremonial magic,
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: these these technologies exist so.
• 21:48
  Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I'm sorry, Ethan, I think you're about to speak.
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: I was just going to say, real quick, just actually
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: what you said that we are, you know, looking for
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: the quick fix. I think that stems from a really
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: laziness and a lack of taking responsibility for all the
• 22:07
  Speaker 4: preparatory processes that might go into self development and conscious
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: development that then might have, you know, the bonus of
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: something like a psychedelic ceremony four months into the process.
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: It might be a nice influence, but I think it's
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: a matter of just laziness and yeah, materialism and so forth,
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: that we're not getting deep with it in the you know,
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: preparation process of itself by itself and just oh yeah,
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: let's just have fun. And I'll use it as an
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: excuse of my my gnostic pursuits.
• 22:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and the psychedelic experiences, I mean they they can
• 22:52
  Speaker 5: take you to such a radical place that you might
• 22:56
  Speaker 5: come back to them and you might come back to
• 22:59
  Speaker 5: you know, reality and be like, there is you know,
• 23:02
  Speaker 5: there's no other way to get to that level of
• 23:04
  Speaker 5: vision visionary you know, get to that visionary realm, or
• 23:08
  Speaker 5: have these hallucinations you know that appear like that well,
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: you know, schizophrenics would disagree in a in a sort
• 23:14
  Speaker 5: of way, we don't understand really what's happening there, but
• 23:18
  Speaker 5: like they are experiencing, you know, at least the ones
• 23:21
  Speaker 5: that I know of, they are experiencing what they're experiencing.
• 23:24
  Speaker 5: It might not be real for us, but for them,
• 23:26
  Speaker 5: it's totally real, and that's why they're in the situation
• 23:30
  Speaker 5: you know that they're in. So there's there's a lot
• 23:32
  Speaker 5: of these aspects here. Like so it's it's even it's
• 23:36
  Speaker 5: even the idea that psychedelics, you know, it's not clear
• 23:39
  Speaker 5: to me that they play even like a more than
• 23:42
  Speaker 5: a fifteen percent, like fifteen percent of a that's like
• 23:45
  Speaker 5: that's high and in and of itself. So like it's
• 23:48
  Speaker 5: it's lower than I think people think. But I do
• 23:50
  Speaker 5: admire the effort of you know, certain rec like PD
• 23:54
  Speaker 5: Newman for instance. I mean, he does great research to
• 23:57
  Speaker 5: try to figure out where the psychedelics actually have their place,
• 24:00
  Speaker 5: and like that is commendable other than just without the
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: evidence here just sort of saying that that that you know,
• 24:08
  Speaker 5: it's everywhere, we can find it everywhere, but it's like
• 24:12
  Speaker 5: it really is. You know, it's also indicative that we
• 24:15
  Speaker 5: focus on the psychedelics so much is that we've kind
• 24:18
  Speaker 5: of we're not putting in the effort with all of
• 24:21
  Speaker 5: these different practices. It's like crea yoga and you know,
• 24:24
  Speaker 5: different things like like reiki and just all the breath work,
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: the things that can happen in you know, holotropic breathing
• 24:32
  Speaker 5: and stuff like people will have visions there. So there's
• 24:35
  Speaker 5: all of these other natural visionary technologies that we need
• 24:40
  Speaker 5: to exhaust. We haven't done that yet. We need to
• 24:43
  Speaker 5: exhaust exhaust them, you know, at this more I think
• 24:46
  Speaker 5: open level. It's like I think the days of sort
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: of keeping all the secrets among your your sort of
• 24:52
  Speaker 5: cult and your little initiatic circle or whatever, those days
• 24:55
  Speaker 5: are kind of behind us. I mean even Freemasons, even
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: Freemasons are openly discussing details of the rituals because they're
• 25:04
  Speaker 5: out there already, if you know, you know Duncan's ritual,
• 25:07
  Speaker 5: Like you can find all of this stuff already, and
• 25:09
  Speaker 5: and so it's like, well, that means the Masons need
• 25:11
  Speaker 5: to come in and try to discuss what's going on
• 25:14
  Speaker 5: because they're the only ones that have actually experienced it,
• 25:17
  Speaker 5: you know, so it's like they can actually talk about it.
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: But so it's like the people who experience the mystery
• 25:23
  Speaker 5: rights in the ancient world, they also wrote things and
• 25:26
  Speaker 5: discussed them, and I just think it's important that let's
• 25:29
  Speaker 5: exhaust those sources before we start drawing up these conclusions
• 25:33
  Speaker 5: and like groping after what the what the kai ki?
• 25:37
  Speaker 5: What the you know, the substance of the drink? Actually?
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: Was I.
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: Sorry for your part being a low percentage? Wasn't it
• 25:51
  Speaker 4: that you were only supposed to attend the Elusian in
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: Elusian mysteries once in your lifetime? Right?
• 25:59
  Speaker 5: I think that's I think that's the case. I don't
• 26:02
  Speaker 5: know of anyone who did it. Did it twice? Yeah,
• 26:05
  Speaker 5: at least in that you know, higher circle, you might
• 26:08
  Speaker 5: have attended at the audience level. But yeah, yeah, And
• 26:12
  Speaker 5: there's like, you know where maybe these psychedelic researchers could
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: just do a little bit better research. I might be
• 26:19
  Speaker 5: ignorant of the books or something that exists out there,
• 26:22
  Speaker 5: but like there are cool accounts that are clearly something
• 26:25
  Speaker 5: psychedelic is going on that no one actually discusses, Like
• 26:29
  Speaker 5: Michael Sellis in his on the Operations of Demons his book,
• 26:34
  Speaker 5: he talks about the Boga Mill sect which is a
• 26:36
  Speaker 5: sort of like Manichean kind of gnostic so called group
• 26:41
  Speaker 5: of Christians that were allegedly practicing these kind of orgiastic
• 26:45
  Speaker 5: rights and you know, summoning demons and so forth. Some
• 26:49
  Speaker 5: of this is like a polemic against them from orthodox
• 26:52
  Speaker 5: Christian Christian perspective, but in like kind of like a
• 26:56
  Speaker 5: side note in one of his descriptions, he says, some
• 26:59
  Speaker 5: Vaga bond from Africa, you know, initiated someone on a
• 27:04
  Speaker 5: mountain side and like these obscure rights, and he pulled
• 27:07
  Speaker 5: out this oil and he rubbed it over this person's eyes.
• 27:10
  Speaker 5: And this person clearly is initiated into this kind of
• 27:14
  Speaker 5: psychedelic mystery and sees all of these daemon's and stuff,
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: and this raven flies into his throat, you know, And
• 27:21
  Speaker 5: there is like in certain psychedelic experiences, there's like this
• 27:26
  Speaker 5: like Ganesha will put her trunk down your throat or
• 27:28
  Speaker 5: something like that and like suck away the negative energy
• 27:31
  Speaker 5: or whatever. So it's like that's that's a that's a
• 27:34
  Speaker 5: little extract that people should zoom in on. The psychoonatic
• 27:39
  Speaker 5: researchers should zoom in on that extract, right, same with
• 27:42
  Speaker 5: the text the Revelation of the magi you know, recent
• 27:46
  Speaker 5: recent English translation for that, but it's it's like a
• 27:49
  Speaker 5: one of a kind apocryphal Christian text, probably late second century,
• 27:54
  Speaker 5: and it describes the star that brings the magi to
• 27:59
  Speaker 5: baby g Jesus in the you know, the Book of Matthew,
• 28:02
  Speaker 5: which sort of fills in the gaps there. And long
• 28:05
  Speaker 5: story short, these magi that encounter this orblan like angel
• 28:12
  Speaker 5: who is also the Son of God, the pre incarnate
• 28:15
  Speaker 5: you know, son of God, Jesus Christ figure himself, and
• 28:19
  Speaker 5: out of this this light, the Son of God figure
• 28:23
  Speaker 5: gives gives the magi like these provisions and these sacred
• 28:27
  Speaker 5: provisions the magi eat and they have clearly have visions
• 28:31
  Speaker 5: directly do to uh to these particular provisions and stuff.
• 28:35
  Speaker 5: So it's like there's an example that psychedelic researchers could
• 28:38
  Speaker 5: hone in on and maybe you know, do something with,
• 28:41
  Speaker 5: maybe compare it to other apocryphal accounts, maybe compare it
• 28:43
  Speaker 5: to the kind of anointing oil accounts. Right, So it's
• 28:47
  Speaker 5: not to say that there aren't mysteries here and worthy investigations.
• 28:51
  Speaker 5: There definitely are, but like, let's let's do that, and
• 28:54
  Speaker 5: let's let's see what we can unearth from that instead
• 28:57
  Speaker 5: of doing this sort of a you know, the game
• 28:59
  Speaker 5: of conclusions.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: And I have to say to add on that as well.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: A lot of what I've seen of the ancient sects
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: that do use psychedelics in their initiatic rights, it's always
• 29:15
  Speaker 2: something kindergarten, and that's something I also want to bring home.
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: When drugs are used, it's something at the very early
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: basic stages for someone completely new, who's experienced nothing. And
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: that's another place where I see it's reasonable nowadays, Like
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: if you do have someone who is a complete materialist
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: maybe and they just want something like you know, Carlos Castaneda,
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: maybe he needed the peyote and he wasn't gonna make
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: it otherwise. So it's like the most basic, like kindergarten
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: thing you can use that for. But that's not once again,
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: the map is not the terrain. The map is not
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: the engine. There's two different things, and it's like you're
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: not moving on the path. Oh I dissolved my ego
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: through that. It's like nah, No, it's like it's the
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: most basic thing and then there's a greater work afterwards.
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: In a lot of ways, it's like the change in
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: perspective is useful for allowing people to shift into other
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: frames of consciousness. But if you think about it, like,
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: these things are just as symbolic without you even taking them.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: So if you're trying to get in touch with the
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: spirits and you've actually done it before on the substance,
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: repeating that off of the substance should be the goal,
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: because you are actually trying to converse on a normal
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: level playing field with the entities over in that realm.
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: So what they've done is they've they've mistaken the bridge
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: for the only way across the chasm. And that's that
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: sort of seems to be the thing with the materialistic elements,
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: is that they don't have a conception that maybe these
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: things are real outside of the substance.
• 31:07
  Speaker 5: Yeah, there's always that problem of unearned enlightenment because it
• 31:12
  Speaker 5: doesn't have that long term, those long term benefits. Whereas
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: someone who's like training and who is coming at these
• 31:19
  Speaker 5: things in in earnest and has has like the intentions
• 31:24
  Speaker 5: of self improvement and self transformation, they are just naturally
• 31:28
  Speaker 5: going to get a better benefit of any kind of
• 31:31
  Speaker 5: experiential sort of catharsis. And it's that it's the reverence.
• 31:36
  Speaker 5: There's also this reverence that we need to bring into
• 31:38
  Speaker 5: these experiences. And it's like everyone's been everyone who's been
• 31:41
  Speaker 5: to a music festival these days knows that this shit
• 31:44
  Speaker 5: is being done without reverence. It's just like, you know,
• 31:47
  Speaker 5: if you're drinking bud light on like three grams of
• 31:50
  Speaker 5: shrooms and like also like stucking down a nicotine vape, like, dude,
• 31:55
  Speaker 5: that that shits, don't you know? There's a lot going
• 31:59
  Speaker 5: on there.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: That's part time. That's not trying to have a spiritual experience.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: That's just party time right.
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: There, right right. But it's you know, there's there's clearly
• 32:09
  Speaker 5: this there's clearly this sort of mixed this like mixed
• 32:14
  Speaker 5: things where the recreational use of psychedelics has kind of
• 32:17
  Speaker 5: can can mar some of the at least in the
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: terms of the regular cultural kind of understanding of these things.
• 32:24
  Speaker 5: It's like, oh, well, you know, the ancients were just
• 32:26
  Speaker 5: taking psychedelics. So now the issue is is that these big,
• 32:30
  Speaker 5: these big you know, talking heads and these figures on
• 32:33
  Speaker 5: these podcasts, they're just sort of the the Eleusinian mysteries.
• 32:37
  Speaker 5: It was a psychedelic thing, and like that's it hasn't
• 32:40
  Speaker 5: been concluded that strongly. Yet at the at the very best,
• 32:44
  Speaker 5: a recent study done on the on the ergod and
• 32:47
  Speaker 5: their whole mixture showed that there is a possibility that
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: it produced a low grade LSD kind of effect, but
• 32:56
  Speaker 5: it would it would have been a very small amount
• 32:59
  Speaker 5: if it if it did that. So that's like, I
• 33:01
  Speaker 5: think that's the state of that research right now, is
• 33:04
  Speaker 5: that there there can be some extraction there, but it's
• 33:07
  Speaker 5: extremely low dosage, you know, and I don't think any
• 33:11
  Speaker 5: humans have actually tested it out though. That's that's the issue. So, yeah,
• 33:15
  Speaker 5: there's there's a lot of these there's a lot of
• 33:17
  Speaker 5: these problems, and it would all be solved if people
• 33:19
  Speaker 5: read read the books, you know, and and went out
• 33:23
  Speaker 5: there and had natural experiences, and you know that they
• 33:26
  Speaker 5: could compare and contrast to their psychedelic experiences as well,
• 33:31
  Speaker 5: because that's the thing, you know, I've experienced both. And
• 33:35
  Speaker 5: yet I'm still you know, pretty pretty strongly like, yeah,
• 33:40
  Speaker 5: I strongly disagree with where this whole movement as has
• 33:43
  Speaker 5: taken course.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one thing I didn't want to say, it comes
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: from knowing thyself, right, that go ahead. One thing I
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: kind of wanted to add, I think to something that
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: you had said, or maybe maybe both of you is
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: kind of said something about perception. No, like for people,
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: there's very few people I knew personally, but there was
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: enough that I knew that microdosed like either as sor
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: to shrooms or had even taken like DMT or hiawaskin
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: in the control of the setting. And I'll just be
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: totally honest with you, most of them their perception of
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: reality completely fucking changed after that, in my opinion, weird,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: like now all of a sudden, everywhere he's like related
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: to Pladians or some fucking reptilian fucking races coming into
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: and I'm just like, what the fuck happened? Very I'll
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: just see, you know, and like maybe sometimes that's not
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: the best thing either, I don't know. But like even
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: another thing I wanted to add, and I wanted to
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: say this earlier, but I won't let you guys go
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: and know the reasons why I find this it's topic
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: interesting because I was friends with somebody who was very
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: it was very close to me that was very big
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: into using these psychedelics, and unfortunately, I mean, it is
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: what it is. If the kids even listening to the
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: show when he was using the shit continuously means life
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: turned to shit, married, divorced, moved on on? How many times?
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: All this like? So as like a magician who's supposed
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: to be doing this stuff to have spiritual experiences and
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: work on shadow work, didn't look like you were getting anyway,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: my man, looks like things are getting worse. So just
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: to me, it was just like, you know, is the
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: drugs the problem? I don't know, But again, just even perception.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: Fuck you all up with that shit too, your perception
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: of reality.
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: Go ahead, Richard, Yeah, if IM jumpmen in there. It's
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: this goes back to the another thing, which is just
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: because something comes from beyond the veil doesn't mean it's
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: at all intelligent or even even that great. And so
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: it's one of those things, the beings you see. I'm
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: not one of those guys who says, oh, when you
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: take psychedelics all in your head. I actually think some
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: of those experiences are very real and very genuine. But
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: here's the thing, here's the thing. The difference. When you
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: take psychedelics, there's also a passivity, a passivity in your essence,
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: whereas when you are engaged in the work in initiatic workings.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: There's activity, like you know, you can take a drug
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: or and that will change your phenomenology. But you can
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: overload yourself with anything. You can take alcohol and that
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: will give you weird experiences as well. Like I know
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: people who kind of feel a separation when they take alcohol,
• 36:23
  Speaker 2: which is very interesting, Like they feel the part of
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: themselves that gets drunk and there's that other part of
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: them that goes, oh, I'm getting drunk, and it's like
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: they can see this kind of dualism. But it's like,
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: if you take a hundred cups of coffee, you'll also
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: change your phenomenal I guarantee you you will experience a
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: phenomenological difference of the world if you take one hundred
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: cups of coffee. But nonetheless, one of the points of
• 36:47
  Speaker 2: spiritual work or experience in my experience as meeting people
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: and talking to people. There's a lot of spiritual experience
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: that've gained through practice and work is very subtle, and
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: the whole point is to kind of refine yourself. So
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: it's like I use the example of you know, you
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: get a gem like a topaz, and you hold it
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: in your hand and you close your eyes and it's
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: like what do you feel? And some people kind of like, ah,
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: my gem bible says a topez caurs, no, no, no,
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: throw your gem bible in the bin. What do you
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: feel when you have like the topez in your in
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: your hand and it's like you are trying to interact
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: with that thing. You're trying to that thing is speaking
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: to you. Everything in the world is speaking. The wind
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: is speaking, the tree is speaking, the grass is speaking.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: There's this continuous dialogue that's always happening. It's just our faculties,
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: our physical faculties are overloaded, and so that information that
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: comes in, that super sensible information is sent into our
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: subconscious we're not conscious of it is there. And some
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: people are very intuitive, and you know, they know when
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: a plant needs this and that they've got the you know,
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: the green thumb, because they can speak to plants. It's
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: in them. It's in them. It's it goes into their
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: subconscious and something red just as consciously. But for most
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: people it goes into the subconscious and it stays there.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: Whereas when you do esoteric practice, you try to draw
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: that out, you try to engage with that, and you
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: do that actively. When you take substance there's and you
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: would even in like if you do the environment properly
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: and you fast for forty days, there's still a passivity
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: to it. And this is problematic because I always remember
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: it's like a kind of a root off Steiner lecture.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: At one point he talks about the astral belt of lies,
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: and I was like, Oh, this is interesting because there's
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: an esoteric spin on the in the astral world, in
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: the lower astral world, there's a belt where when you
• 38:40
  Speaker 2: hit it, it's illusory but and so it's and it's
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: not it's real, but it's real. But there's the truth
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: in the lie gets mixed together. And when a truth
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: and a lie gets mixed together, that's that's double trouble
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: because truth is often dry. But when you add life
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: lies to truth, then it starts to sparkle. And also
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: lies if you push against them. If you push against
• 39:05
  Speaker 2: a lie, it'll fall over. But if you have truth
• 39:08
  Speaker 2: there to prop it up, the lie becomes actually quite reinforced.
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: So when you mix truth with lie, it's just like
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: that astral belt of lies is one of the biggest,
• 39:19
  Speaker 2: the biggest problems. And I'm like, ah, and this is
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: also for people who don't take drugs for people who
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: have a little bit of delusion in them, and then
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: they get into the spiritual work and they start doing numerology,
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: they read the Kabali on once and then all of
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: a sudden they think they're Jesus and Karnate. It's like,
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: this is a perennial problem. And just because you're taking
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: a psychedelics that doesn't you don't skip that process. There
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: is a very a process very early on where it's
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: like a megalomania almost, And it's like those spiritual beings
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: that are beyond the veil, they may not that may
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: be just a quality of the astral belt of lies
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: and so you may not. Oh anyway, and this is
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: just it. I see people just like your friend continuously
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: who are stuck. It's like I met a guy, I know,
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: I know a guy. Actually he's doing well now, but
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: I met him down and Byron, well he's from Byron.
• 40:15
  Speaker 2: Let's let me just say Byron Bay, Australia. If you
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: know what's what happens there, you know what happens there.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: This guy the list of drugs he took like it
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: would if it rolled out on a scroll, The scroll
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: would go across the room. He told me that he
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: took a like al oscar thirteen times and it's like
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: the last time he took it was like a triple
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: dose or something. And he said he had this experience
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: where like the void opened up and all the gods
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: were there, and the Divine Mother came to him, but
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: then she turned like she spoke to him, and she
• 40:49
  Speaker 2: turned and she pointed to all of the gods and
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: see all of this this is just this is just
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: an impression. And it's like there was something real that
• 40:58
  Speaker 2: finally cracked through and he realized, like I need to
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: stop taking drugs. I need to dual work. This is
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: just an experience, and that's what I see. This guy
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: I met, he was a nice guy, but he was normal.
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: He didn't have any attainment. He wasn't a master. There
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: were no cities there. There was no extraordinary knowledge. And
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: when I say extra ordinary knowledge, look, he had weird experiences.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: He had cool psychedelic experiences that were crystallized in his memory.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: But he wasn't an unusual person beyond that. And it's
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: like for him something finally cracked and broken. It's like, oh,
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: I need to actually find the work. And you know,
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: he he's doing one. He got some Golden Dawn stuff
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: and he's doing some things. But it's like, that's what
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: I That's what I see most of the time is
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: people take them and the megalomania test. They get completely
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: they completely fumble and stumble, and it's like I just
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: solved my ego. That's it done, guys, LSD. Once I'm
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: done one and done, baby.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: I like how you said that, the megalomania, that's pretty interesting. Yeah,
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: thank you, sir.
• 42:04
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I once had a I had a festival on
• 42:08
  Speaker 5: my property and whatnot. And try not to get too
• 42:12
  Speaker 5: specific here, but let's just say nefarious people can get
• 42:17
  Speaker 5: their hands on these substances, you know, have all of
• 42:21
  Speaker 5: these sort of unstressed conclusions about how you know, sacred
• 42:27
  Speaker 5: psychedelics are, and then they're around a bunch of gullible
• 42:30
  Speaker 5: and naive, naive people that don't really think critically about
• 42:34
  Speaker 5: these things, and then they can actually, they can actually
• 42:36
  Speaker 5: do harm. I realized that this isn't happening like all
• 42:39
  Speaker 5: the time everywhere with everyone uses psychedelics, but it does.
• 42:41
  Speaker 5: It does happen. Like one of my good friends, you know,
• 42:44
  Speaker 5: was given by this total moron, like a teeny vial
• 42:49
  Speaker 5: of liquid LSD or whatever, and he was just like
• 42:52
  Speaker 5: take the rest of it. And you know, the other
• 42:54
  Speaker 5: the person who took it was just being too like oh,
• 42:57
  Speaker 5: you know, I want to be one of the cool
• 42:58
  Speaker 5: kids kind of thing, the whole thing, and like, I
• 43:03
  Speaker 5: mean lost, you know, for the next eight hours, Like
• 43:07
  Speaker 5: we had him in the car with ac on him,
• 43:09
  Speaker 5: like trying to get him.
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: Good.
• 43:11
  Speaker 5: Luckily, they had like a er friend that was you know,
• 43:14
  Speaker 5: on the property too, so it was all good. But
• 43:17
  Speaker 5: he tried to run into our lake, like you know,
• 43:21
  Speaker 5: stripped his closed down, running straight for the lake, and
• 43:24
  Speaker 5: like we grabbed him and you know, brought him back down.
• 43:27
  Speaker 5: That's just one of these sort of revelatory moments where
• 43:30
  Speaker 5: it's like, dude, this stuff in the wrong type of
• 43:33
  Speaker 5: hands is tragic and it can ruin people's lives. And
• 43:37
  Speaker 5: you know, I've seen way worse situations situations play out there.
• 43:41
  Speaker 5: So you'll get these kind of like micro gurus with
• 43:45
  Speaker 5: with big egos and really they're just drug dealers who
• 43:47
  Speaker 5: happen to have psychedelics and they kind of you know,
• 43:51
  Speaker 5: they have a couple of they have like some bro
• 43:53
  Speaker 5: science facts related to the psychedelics on their shoulder and
• 43:57
  Speaker 5: they're around some gullible people and then you know people
• 43:59
  Speaker 5: are just damn imaging, you know, damaging their lives, and
• 44:01
  Speaker 5: that's when it's really sad. So it's like whereas when
• 44:06
  Speaker 5: you find you know, some North American tribes sharing like
• 44:10
  Speaker 5: yopon tea ceremonies or smoking the tobacco pipe and stuff
• 44:13
  Speaker 5: in ceremony, it is all the sort of traditional. It
• 44:17
  Speaker 5: has these parameters about it. It's there's that layer of
• 44:21
  Speaker 5: reverence there, your your ancestors did it too, and it
• 44:25
  Speaker 5: is intent Like the intentions are pretty clear as to
• 44:28
  Speaker 5: what's going on. Right when when someone in the Lakota
• 44:33
  Speaker 5: tribe or differ various different tribes in North America set
• 44:37
  Speaker 5: out to do their vigils or their rites of passage,
• 44:39
  Speaker 5: for instance, you know they would go out with the
• 44:42
  Speaker 5: shaman uh and the shaman would sort of say, all right,
• 44:46
  Speaker 5: look here here's what you do. You've you've got to
• 44:48
  Speaker 5: fast for three days. We've dug this pit in the
• 44:50
  Speaker 5: mountain side. You know, you go into the pit and
• 44:53
  Speaker 5: like that's where you're gonna You're gonna sit in this
• 44:56
  Speaker 5: pit for X number of days and wait there until
• 45:00
  Speaker 5: the spirits come to you.
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 45:02
  Speaker 5: Sometimes the spirits didn't come, and then the person came
• 45:05
  Speaker 5: back down the mountain side talked with the shaman, and
• 45:08
  Speaker 5: shaman was like, yeah, you you know, there's also something
• 45:11
  Speaker 5: in that too, like you that you just gotta you
• 45:13
  Speaker 5: gotta work harder, you gotta do something different, or there's
• 45:16
  Speaker 5: like there's that sort of tough love kind of message there.
• 45:19
  Speaker 5: There was always a way through it, even if you
• 45:21
  Speaker 5: didn't have the experience. The shamans understood because they had
• 45:24
  Speaker 5: brought so many people through this kind of thing. Or
• 45:27
  Speaker 5: you could be in this pit similar to like Tamarcus
• 45:30
  Speaker 5: in Greece who visited the cave of Triphonius. Right, he
• 45:33
  Speaker 5: didn't drink a psychedelic according to Plutarch before having his
• 45:38
  Speaker 5: near death experience. Right, neither did these these youths in
• 45:42
  Speaker 5: the North American tribes who go up the mountain side
• 45:45
  Speaker 5: and they wait in these caves or pits or something,
• 45:49
  Speaker 5: and usually they they're they're making a sacrifice. Right when
• 45:52
  Speaker 5: you're fasting, you're sacrificing something, right, You're they're they're making
• 45:56
  Speaker 5: this sacrifice, and there's there's this intention there and you
• 45:59
  Speaker 5: have to go through the kind of period of darkness
• 46:03
  Speaker 5: and then something can come through, you know. But these
• 46:06
  Speaker 5: are totally not reliant on any any you know, material medium.
• 46:11
  Speaker 5: And that's that's the idea. It is that our language
• 46:13
  Speaker 5: about natural visionary experiences just needs to get upgraded, and
• 46:18
  Speaker 5: it won't get upgraded also if everyone's too caddy about
• 46:22
  Speaker 5: their experiences or can't have a conversation about their experiences,
• 46:26
  Speaker 5: like you don't need to give us the whole package,
• 46:28
  Speaker 5: but we need to at least be able to communicate
• 46:31
  Speaker 5: on some level like hey, yeah, I know what you're
• 46:33
  Speaker 5: talking about. That happened to me too in meditation. Stuff
• 46:36
  Speaker 5: like that. We need to we need to bring this
• 46:37
  Speaker 5: out of like some you know, like the alchemists. You know,
• 46:40
  Speaker 5: they're obscuring their language so much that no one knows
• 46:43
  Speaker 5: what's going on anymore, like that kind of phase. I think,
• 46:47
  Speaker 5: you know, it's like it has its place here or there.
• 46:50
  Speaker 5: But in order to bring this stuff to the practical level,
• 46:52
  Speaker 5: we have to talk about it openly, and we have
• 46:55
  Speaker 5: to focus on these natural visionary experiences that underlie I
• 46:59
  Speaker 5: think the origins of religious belief in the first place
• 47:03
  Speaker 5: are actually those experiences, and they don't require psychedelics, okay,
• 47:08
  Speaker 5: but sure if someone came across a DMT pipe loaded
• 47:12
  Speaker 5: with DMT in the ancient world and they smoked it,
• 47:15
  Speaker 5: would they come out of that with like some wild beliefs,
• 47:18
  Speaker 5: Like yeah, definitely right. But I think we're dealing with
• 47:22
  Speaker 5: something more natural here. And you know, on that note,
• 47:25
  Speaker 5: last little thing here, It's like when when asked these
• 47:30
  Speaker 5: Amazonian shamans, did you how did you find ayahuasca? You know,
• 47:35
  Speaker 5: they said the plants told us. The plants told us so.
• 47:40
  Speaker 5: But even the guys deep in the research there, they
• 47:44
  Speaker 5: want to appeal to the skeptics and say, well, they
• 47:47
  Speaker 5: could work this out over ten thousand experiments combining this
• 47:50
  Speaker 5: plant in that plant, And I'm like, guys, they told
• 47:54
  Speaker 5: you what happened. They already they already told you how
• 47:56
  Speaker 5: it happened. And so we're always looking for this this
• 48:00
  Speaker 5: sort of more rational kind of way around these things.
• 48:03
  Speaker 5: But speaking to a plant or something it just sounds,
• 48:06
  Speaker 5: oh my god, it's so fantastic. But that kind of
• 48:08
  Speaker 5: clues you into how far away we are from the
• 48:11
  Speaker 5: actual mindset of the people that were discovering the psychedelics
• 48:16
  Speaker 5: that now we cherish. They had a totally different ontology.
• 48:20
  Speaker 5: You know that they could telepathically communicate with plants and
• 48:23
  Speaker 5: this and that. So we've lost we like have erased
• 48:27
  Speaker 5: all of that context and all of that earning and
• 48:30
  Speaker 5: that what you know, what people had to do to
• 48:32
  Speaker 5: deserve these things, We've erased that. And you know, so
• 48:36
  Speaker 5: that's why we have to bring it in this discussion.
• 48:38
  Speaker 5: And it's sort of valuable to flesh flesh all of
• 48:40
  Speaker 5: this out.
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: May I. May I add, it's a great question that
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: you pose, like the kind of delulu that comes about
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: from people even doing a small amount, and I think
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: it and Colin where you were just talking about in
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: regards to fasting and ritual preparation, any number of sorts
• 49:04
  Speaker 4: of initiation process processes. I think a lot of that
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: adds up to confusion and the learning process of kung fu,
• 49:17
  Speaker 4: taichi and so on. It's really a confusing and humbling experience,
• 49:24
  Speaker 4: but yet it is beneficial and grounding and so forth.
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: And it's interesting that psychedelics and narcotics can be confusing,
• 49:34
  Speaker 4: and I think when one has gone through a lot
• 49:39
  Speaker 4: of confusion and overcoming confusion, even in a sober sense,
• 49:44
  Speaker 4: I think confusion is what development tastes like if you will,
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: And so I think it is an example of this
• 49:55
  Speaker 4: preparation or initiation benefit that can help us deal with
• 50:04
  Speaker 4: these things that might bring people into this spiritual euphoria
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: where everything is a sign if you will or something
• 50:12
  Speaker 4: akin to that, and not grounded as they proceed. So
• 50:17
  Speaker 4: I just wanted to add that the confusion I think
• 50:19
  Speaker 4: is a helpful thing in development.
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the Shamans themselves would be horrified that
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: people are taking these psychoactive substances inside of a rave.
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: It's like, how are you not riddled with demons at
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: this point? So it's you know, the different distractions and
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: things that take you off the course surrounding you during
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: these things are very influential on how that relates to
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: your experiences and how you relate to them. So, I mean,
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: you could change your perception looking at a color, you know,
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: you could change your perception by having certain herbs burning.
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: The whole idea that you need strong psychoactive substances. The
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: change your perception is actually completely off of the mark
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: that you would want to you know, perpetuate with attaining
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: the ability to witness this stuff.
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: That's really well said. I mean that's even like stuff
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: that I've been even trying to like get at, and
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: we'll try to get more at on the show. Myself
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: is between like you know, if you have the choice
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: of sacred architecture, you know, sound, herbs, crystals, there's so
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: many things that could already start affecting your your your
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: vegas nerdly, your parasympathetic shit, then you can actually like
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: kind of lower you lower yourself down and get into
• 51:38
  Speaker 1: a relaxed state just from all that aiding you already.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean just without the drugs.
• 51:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah, And it's it's still a mystery as far as
• 51:51
  Speaker 5: the chemicals that our body produces and what role they
• 51:56
  Speaker 5: they play in these experiences too, because I mean it
• 51:59
  Speaker 5: is it is fascinating that the body already possesses the
• 52:04
  Speaker 5: kind of cannabinoid system that knows exactly what to do
• 52:07
  Speaker 5: when you when you you know, inhale, THHC and whatnot.
• 52:11
  Speaker 5: Are we already make small levels of d MT, you know,
• 52:15
  Speaker 5: in our body and we're not necessarily quite sure what
• 52:19
  Speaker 5: their what their function are. You know, Strasman has at
• 52:24
  Speaker 5: least somewhat indicated that that it plays a role in
• 52:27
  Speaker 5: our in our dreams. But you know, then again we're
• 52:29
  Speaker 5: not really sure, but but you have things like gigantism
• 52:34
  Speaker 5: or whatnot, which is a sort of I believe the
• 52:36
  Speaker 5: thyroid produces an excess level of growth hormone and literally
• 52:40
  Speaker 5: turns people into giants, right, So this is a kind
• 52:43
  Speaker 5: of chemical imbalance in the body that has these drastic,
• 52:48
  Speaker 5: you know, these drastic kind of effects. So we just
• 52:51
  Speaker 5: we don't know enough about about those those processes. But
• 52:55
  Speaker 5: it's like we know, we know that holotropic breathing produces
• 52:58
  Speaker 5: more nitric oxide in the brain, Okay, and that's why
• 53:02
  Speaker 5: the experiences that people have doing that practice is similar
• 53:06
  Speaker 5: to when they just suck down a nitrous oxide balloon.
• 53:10
  Speaker 5: But you don't need the balloons. You can you can
• 53:12
  Speaker 5: do this in a in a different in a different
• 53:13
  Speaker 5: way that is healthier, right, and it requires efforts. So
• 53:16
  Speaker 5: there is a different kind of catharsis at the end
• 53:20
  Speaker 5: of that journey than just sort of just sort of
• 53:23
  Speaker 5: taking something right. So it's like, the psychedelics are not
• 53:27
  Speaker 5: going away, if anything, I think, you know, we're probably
• 53:32
  Speaker 5: gonna see revivals on a number of different levels of
• 53:36
  Speaker 5: you know, different kind of psychedelics. So it's it's worth
• 53:41
  Speaker 5: trying to establish as as psychedelics continue to influence culture
• 53:46
  Speaker 5: in general and and no doubt influence people's perspective on
• 53:51
  Speaker 5: spirituality and whatnot. Getting it back into this this sense
• 53:56
  Speaker 5: of reverence and this sense of like, like if you
• 53:58
  Speaker 5: wanted to create a a new mystery ritual based around
• 54:03
  Speaker 5: kind of a psychedelic at the end of that, like that,
• 54:06
  Speaker 5: there's validity there, there's something good there if it's if
• 54:10
  Speaker 5: the parameters are right, the people involved are like decent
• 54:14
  Speaker 5: and everything else, and it's not it's not too you know, crazy,
• 54:17
  Speaker 5: Like there's there's value. There's value there, but it's of
• 54:22
  Speaker 5: course it's not. It's not the only thing that exists.
• 54:24
  Speaker 5: And that's you know, we're being a dead dead horse
• 54:26
  Speaker 5: here by saying this over and over, but we're gonna
• 54:29
  Speaker 5: have to continue to say it over and or over
• 54:32
  Speaker 5: and sort of flesh out the argument and develop the
• 54:35
  Speaker 5: different the different points here because the debate is going
• 54:38
  Speaker 5: to ramp up.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: Actually, well, one thing I would even like to point
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: at I was thinking of what you're talking about this
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: stuff and that to start getting a little bit on
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: the more conspiratorial side. But Jesus, my opinion that it
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: could be quite possible. It's a theory. So some people
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: might agree that maybe during like certain like music things
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: or the Grateful Dead, maybe not all that accid, Like
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: maybe some of that nice it might have been from
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: the CIA. You never know, you know, you never know
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: what that ship, where that stuff was coming from. And
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: people just being studied, you have no idea, you know,
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: So like I do believe that maybe certain places can't
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: get infiltrated by drugs for studies. Like who's to say
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: this isn't just another another one.
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: I mean that that could be another argument for a
• 55:22
  Speaker 2: like or another division in the community, artificial or natural,
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: Like if you truly want to be spiritual, just pure natural, baby,
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: you gotta go natty. You can't, you can't not be natty.
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: And then and then mushroom. And then when you get
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: these people that have these crazy experiences and now think
• 55:39
  Speaker 1: that there's some like Palladian moon goddess, people would be like, well,
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: that's what happens when you take that shit. You're fucking crazy,
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. So then it just you know,
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: it really just makes the whole thing just look sucked up.
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: M that's how to experience. No, I've just wondered that.
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: I think another thing I want to mention also in
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: there is the difference between permanent change and temporary change,
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: and this is to go towards also advancement or walking
• 56:11
  Speaker 2: along the spiritual powerful thing. Maybe I want to maybe
• 56:14
  Speaker 2: just move back a bit and just I have these categories.
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: I just want to mention first when I talk about this,
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: because some people they get the wrong impression when I
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: say spirituality. I have these three tears, religion, spirituality, and mysticism.
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: The religious is the top one, is the first one,
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: the basic one. Someone who's religious doesn't necessarily care about
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: having a spiritual experience. You know, the Christian who goes
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: to church. He still believes there's something beyond the veil
• 56:44
  Speaker 2: and he draws ethics from it, but he's just religious.
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: He goes to church on the weekend. Someone who's spiritual
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: is a little bit deeper. They want to experience what's
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: beyond the veil. But they may not never change in
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: their life, like they may not be necessarily interested in
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: transformation of their self, like they may not want, you know,
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: they just want to kind of live life, but also
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: being among the spirits kind of thing. Whereas a mystic
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: is someone who has real experience from beyond the veil,
• 57:17
  Speaker 2: and they've actually been transformed by it. The only problem
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: is is a true mystic mystics, they don't choose to
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: be mystics. It's the thing beyond the veil reaches down
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: and grabs them and pulls them upwards. And the counter
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: that is on that level. There's something like along the
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: side of that, and that is someone who wants that,
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: they want transformation and they do something to initiate that process.
• 57:47
  Speaker 2: And the thing is in this class, the experience, the
• 57:53
  Speaker 2: perception is an effect. It's not a cause. The cause
• 57:59
  Speaker 2: is you apply something. So it's like in the East
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: you do crea yoga, you do this Hamsar exercise where
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: you visualize, you know, energy coming up the spine and
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: into the forehead and you do this continuously and then
• 58:10
  Speaker 2: sometimes they say you experience light if you just take
• 58:13
  Speaker 2: a drug and you experience light in your forehead. So
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: what that's an effect? You didn't do the cause. The
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: whole point is is you saturate the spine with this
• 58:24
  Speaker 2: energy and then that has an effect and then that
• 58:26
  Speaker 2: changes you and then certain things in your life may
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: change or you as a person, like continuously moving your
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: energies inwards, like you know, can change certain qualities psychologically
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: permanently in you. It's like you do the cause and
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: you get these effects, these spiritual things or I saw
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: this spirit or I saw these lights. They are effects.
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: They're not important at all, but also they are important
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: in the sense of you've done the practice correctly, and
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: it's a litmus test that you've done the practice correctly.
• 58:57
  Speaker 2: You don't want to be doing a practice wrong for
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: like twenty years and then it's like I've been doing
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: it wrong, you know all this time kind of thing.
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: If you apply a cause, it should have an effect.
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: But if you're just taking a drug and having any experience,
• 59:09
  Speaker 2: that's just an effect without anything. I like to say,
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: it's like you know, like going to the gym and
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: working out and changing your body. But you know the
• 59:18
  Speaker 2: concept of like you know, an exoskeleton, like they're talking
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: about it now. It's like, well, you get like kind
• 59:23
  Speaker 2: of a robot suit over yourself and like they kind
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: of have military exo suits now where it's like, you know,
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: you have the robot moves kind of for your you
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: can lift something extra large if you have like this
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: kind of robot kind of exoskeleton on your arm and
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: like that kind of thing. It's like it's like taking
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: a drug for spirituality is like that is you're putting
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: something on and it's like it's giving you this huge
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: effects and then you can lift like three hundred, four hundred,
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: five hundred pounds. But then once you take the exo
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: skeleton off, you're just back to a normal skinny dude.
• 59:57
  Speaker 2: You're back to a normal human. And that's the thing. Yeah,
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: that's the thing exactly. It's the difference between Iron Man
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 2: and four What do you want to be a billionaire playboy?
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 2: And then what are you without the suit? Or are
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 2: you Captain America? Are you actually though, like just generating
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: like lightning out of yourself or generating strength and virtue
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: out of yourself via the internal It's like, what do
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: you want to be? And so it's kind of like
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: there's no I see it, there's no real development. And
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: people always kind of that, it's like, and they always
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: counter that by saying, ah, but it changed me from that,
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: and it's like no, no, no, you're mistaken. You're falling
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: into the healing versus regeneration thing again. Broken people becoming
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: normal is not initiation someone who's already kind of got
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 2: it together going into something even greater, going beyond human.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: That's what we're interesting, the ladder of being you know, vegetable, animal, human,
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: and then something potentially beyond. We want to go beyond.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: We don't just want to be a human with an
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 2: odd experience. It's calls and effects, permanence change, not temporary experience.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: I like that that was well said. I think that's
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: why before I was like saying, that sounds like party
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: time to me, because it just sounds like you're taking
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: shit just to do it, and there was no reason
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: why I get that. Man nice, anybody have anything they
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: wanted to add or.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 5: As far as this goes, it's probably I think we've
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 5: probably covered most of it as far as an introductory
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 5: sort of fleshing out the general kind of argument against
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 5: psychedelic maximalism, because then you know, this is the next step.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 5: If there was a debate on the in the cards
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 5: or whatever, we would start busting out receipts and doing
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 5: that whole ping pong and that whole thing back and forth,
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 5: which would be would would be fun, but I.
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: Could get interesting. Let's keep that in mind. If you
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 1: don't want to.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 5: Sign me up.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I got I got no skin in
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 1: the game, so I mean it's all cool for me.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm not a debate guide, but I'm I'm up
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 2: for some fun.
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I think yeah, exactly discussion.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: But that's another interesting point though. The people who do
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: have skin in the game have been researching this in
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: sort of private settings for you know, decades upon decades,
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: since the nineteen fifties that we know of, and maybe
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 3: there's a little bit more to that agenda than a
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: lot of people are giving it credit for, because you know,
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: we see all of this stuff sort of popping up
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: as these advocacy groups, and maybe there has more to
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: do with maybe what the purposes were originally, which is
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: human testing. So it's just something to be aware of
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: and stay cautious of.
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's totally going on the you know, the
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: conspiracy route as well. That's it can also be another thing.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: It's like the forces that be know that drugs are
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 2: a dead end, so to over over to over recommend them,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 2: and to have people who have a kind of copium,
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: it's like they've been in because they said, you see
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 2: this in some spiritual school where it's like a guy's
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: been in for twenty years, and if you're in a
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 2: spiritual kind of scenario for so long, you get it
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: into your head. Sometimes it's like, I'm spiritual, and then
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 2: if something goes wrong, well I'm spiritual. It has to
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 2: be someone else. It can't be me. I've done the work.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: And if it's just if you're just doing drugs all
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 2: the time, and then you can kind of like if
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: you've never done anything, you haven't really gotten anywhere. There
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 2: can be a kind of a copium for that. So
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: they go into the literature, they do all this study,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: they get all this skin in the game because it's
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 2: a kind of copium. No, no, no, it is good.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: I've been working this entire time. And then of course
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 2: there's the people behind them going yes, yes, tell the others,
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 2: tell the others, and it's all this that's where it
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: becomes conspiratorial. I can see that. I can see that.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 5: Well.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 4: And I think you guys already won the debate in
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 4: a sense, but by putting forth the idea that it
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 4: does have medical end or healing properties and uses for
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 4: certain people, but the true you know, Richard and con
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 4: I think you guys summed it up. Essentially, there's no
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 4: prescription for cities, right, it's more instructions towards meditation that
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 4: you may gain such effects. Con sorry to.
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 5: Oh no, no worries at all. Yeah, I mean it's
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 5: worth you know, it's worth pointing out, like like the
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 5: positives for psychedelics as well, Like, are there some people
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 5: that I would be like, dude, I just want to
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 5: shove a mushroom down down your mouth just so you
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 5: have some inkling that there's something beyond your ego that exists. Like, yes,
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 5: there's people that that we all want to do that with,
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 5: but you know, we don't, we can't do that. But yeah,
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 5: so it's it's like I think it can lead a
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 5: lot of sort of you know, dogmatic and and kind
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 5: of sort of rigorously rigid people. It can it can
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 5: produce a shift in belief, which can can be powerful.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 5: But those shifts they don't necessarily like you can't keep
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 5: pressing the shift belief button, you know, so if something
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 5: results in that shift, that shift of belief, like, Okay,
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 5: now I believe in spirits because I smoke d MT
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 5: and I encountered things that I can't explain, and they
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 5: were communicating with me and it was so bizarre. It's like,
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 5: all right, I'll like, I think that's that's a sort
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 5: of a positive thing if you if you can if
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 5: that works in a positive way in your reality, that
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 5: now you believe in spirits. Now you sort of understand boom,
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 5: there's a there's a good positive benefit from from psychedelic
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 5: uses that I honestly want to kind of you know,
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 5: safe and everything else advocate for for sure. That's that's
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 5: where I think it has its place, not in this
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 5: sort of chaotic you know, everything's recreational, nothing intention behind it.
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 5: We're just doing this for euphoria. So it makes our
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 5: sex better and our dancing better and this and that.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 5: People want to ride that train until they're basically forty
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 5: and they've lost the purpose in life, and like you know,
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 5: now now they don't look as good anymore, they don't
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 5: feel as good. What have I been doing? You know,
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 5: I've been frying my brain on psychedelics. And it's like,
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 5: you know, when I was younger and a little bit
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 5: more championing the psychedelics and didn't have enough experiences myself,
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 5: I was a little more gung ho about it. But
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 5: then when you have like a terrible trip and are
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 5: a couple of these, right, Like you know salvia they
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 5: used to sell and they might still do sell salvia
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 5: like gas stations. Right, if you smoke salvia, you will
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 5: be confronted with the most bizarre hallucinations you could You
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 5: don't ever want to imagine. It is nightmarish. What can happen? Right,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 5: I don't know, don't do it. It's not like it's
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 5: not great, you know. I mean Terrence mckinna, he describes
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 5: a certain way to do it where you know it's different.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 5: But I mean I saw I saw like reality unzip
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 5: and in one instance, there was like fifty different boxes
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 5: of myself that I saw stumbling and it was like
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 5: a hologram of me just stumbling in a yard. And
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 5: I came back to reality, hitting myself in the face,
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 5: trying to wake up out of it. You know. So
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 5: it's like, I mean, it can just what is It's like,
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 5: I don't know what to take from that other than
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 5: you know, don't do that anymore. And hallucinations are possible, right,
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 5: So it's like, uh, yeah, there's there's only so much
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 5: we can extract from it. Now with the dmt X research,
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 5: I think those guys are going to they're going to
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 5: get into the territory territory with psychedelics, and this is
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 5: the IV drip of the DMT. They might get into
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 5: a territory that is scientifically useful. And this is let
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 5: me qualify that. It's like if they can encounter an
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 5: intoity in that space and say, here's a mathematical problem
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 5: and the entity solves it and and they bring it
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 5: back or whatever, that's kind of what they're trying to do.
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 5: They're trying to let the entity do something that the
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 5: person having the experience cannot do so that they bring
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 5: it back as like experiential proof of the objective existence
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 5: of of this entity. That's that's the fascinating research that
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 5: this stuff can, you know, get into. And I'm I'm
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 5: all for that, you know. Yeah, So I think it's
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 5: it's gonna it's gonna get interesting. So it's worth it's
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 5: worth trying to figure out, you know, where we at
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 5: in this, in this whole argument, and what are the
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 5: points for and against this stuff. So I think I
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 5: think we've done done some good introductory work on that here.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 3: Sure. Yeah, doing salvia myself, I lost all control over
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 3: the internal temperature regulation in my body. So even though
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 3: it's perfectly fine outside, you feel like you're freezing to death.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 3: So it's is that really worth fucking around with your
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 3: autonomic nervous system? It's, uh, you know, it's something else
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 3: happening there. So these things aren't regulated, but that doesn't
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 3: mean that they're safe, And a lot of people miss
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: that sort of distinction because they think that, you know,
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 3: chemicals that are unregulated means they're safe, but that's that's
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 3: not true at all. It's just, you know, you got
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: to understand that the dose makes the poison. And a
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 3: lot of times people don't do that because they're used
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 3: to having warning labels all over everything. And I don't
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: think that if they legalized psychedelics that it would come
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: with a warning label that says could cause extended adolescence.
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 3: You know, that ego death that you're experiencing might just
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 3: be you thinking you're a child forever. So how is
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 3: that useful?
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: Like that? All right? I guess we could pliably. You
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 1: guys are cool with wrapping it up, then, I guess
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: you guys, Uh yeah, no reason to keep going on that.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: It was that was great though, man, I really, uh,
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: I really appreciate the way you guys presented all that.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: You know again, I mean, I totally agree with you guys. Anyway,
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: I don't think drugs are.
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 5: Uh.
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: Before we wrap it up, we'll have everybody, uh pull
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: this stuff one more time. What is going on, Ethan?
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: Remember the books this time?
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 4: Well that was that was awesome. Thank you so much
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 4: for sharing you guys. It's inspiring uh to get more
• 1:10:35
  Speaker 4: confusion in my mind. So yeah, Ethan, Indigo Smith, I
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 4: appreciate anyone who reaches out to communicate. And tomorrow Sunday
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 4: and tomorrow Sunday's head listen. I'll be doing the trialogue,
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 4: hopefully with Riccardo. Maybe we'll have to get Nick on
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 4: if he's not busy.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: If cards yeah, maybe I could.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 4: And always trying to do a little writing here and
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 4: there a cult Research Institute, and I got a bunch
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 4: of books out there. Geometry of Energy is a free
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 4: e book if anyone does the books for the next
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 4: few days. And again, Richard Colin, thank you so much.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: Thank you for joining us, Ethan for your questions and
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: your input. And Heller's join sir, you.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 3: Know, and you can check me tomorrow on the trialogues
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 3: at about ten thirty Central and Ethan's going to be
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 3: there with me and it's going to be a great time. Also,
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 3: you know, I love I love being the people to
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 3: be talking about this stuff instead of, you know, leaving
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 3: it up to some of the more duplicitous members of
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: society trying to fear monger about it, which is not
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: what you need in cases like this, because I think
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 3: there's that instant sort of like revulsion against the fear
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 3: mongers that then brings people into it and doing things
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 3: that are unsafe because you know, they were told not
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: to do it. So I think these are good discussions
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 3: to have, and I think people should really consider these
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 3: things from a wider perspective.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: So thank you very much, no, thank you, Ellis appreciate it.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: And we'll start off with Richard first. Please let everybody
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 1: know where they can find all your work.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: Once again, you can find me on Twitter. I'm pretty
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 2: active there. Check out my substacks. I should probably write
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: it so behind and everything. I got some more videos
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 2: in the work. Subscribe to my channel hang out on
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: Sun orders that hang out for my Manly Pee whole
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 2: streams and also if you're a YouTube member in the
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 2: Secret Chat we got a little hermetic study group going.
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: We'll probably do another reading of Friends Barton soon, so
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: look forward to that.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: Very nice. And yeah, if people didn't catch it when
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: he was on here the first time, I think we
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: talked about resecutionism. If you're into that, go check out
• 1:12:46
  Speaker 1: the other episode. And Colin, please man let everybody know
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: what's up with you. When there people can find all
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 1: your amazing stuff.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you can find me on YouTube American Esoteric. All
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 5: the links to my are on there. I've got a
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 5: fascinating essay coming up on Arabic hermetica, and it is
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 5: it is this sort of there's a lot of a
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 5: lot of tangled weeds and it's it's a it's a
• 1:13:13
  Speaker 5: difficult and sort of strenuous sort of study because there's
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 5: there's there's not much out there, but there's there's possibly
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 5: more hermetica writings attributed to Hermes in Arabic than any
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 5: other language. So it's like it's like a huge trove
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 5: of her medica that that have they they haven't been touched.
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 5: No one is touching them, I mean the best. Like
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 5: the the book the Arabic Hermes von Bladel's work was
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 5: published in like I think the late two thousands and whatnot.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 5: And Walter Scott published you know, one of the larger
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 5: Arabic Hermetica's and like volume four of a of a
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 5: book that you know it's super hard to get now,
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 5: uh and then her Medica to Litwa's version. There's only
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 5: a couple of little, you know, references there, so it
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 5: should be a fascinating and uh long long essays. So
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 5: trudging through that material, now, yes, that is awesome.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: The amount of things in other languages will just never
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: know about makes me weep.
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I bought I to like, I don't know
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 5: why I did this. It was like self flagellation. I
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 5: bought this huge German like thousand page book in German
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 5: on the mason I'm giving a lecture on just to
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 5: be like, all right, I'll have this if I ever
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 5: learned German, you know, but like until then, it's just
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 5: gonna stare at me on the bookshelf.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 2: Just just get a Germans English dictionary and stop going,
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 2: stop plowing page by page.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: Right there you go, man, But thank you both very much.
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: I thought that was awesome, really well done, you know,
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 1: and I think all the people in the chat too,
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: everybody who showed up for the live that's what's up.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: That's where we go for. That's where we go live.
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: And just to just to reiterate again, it was April
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 1: twenty fifth, correct, right, Colin, that's.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 5: Right, April twenty fifth, the Massonic Southeastern Masonic Symposium Asheville Lodge.
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 5: We're covering the Masonic, different Masonic luminaries, so different Masons
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 5: and history that deserve a little more attention and have
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 5: some have some sort of mystical and esoteric elements to
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 5: them as well, so should make for a good a
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 5: good day of work.
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 1: Awesome, nice, nice, all right, yes, well again, thank you
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: everybody who joined again, thank you Colin and Richard. Was
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: awesome and everybody in the chat. And until the next one,
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 1: everybody be well later