Latest / einfach gelöst / #15: Bill McCarley & Henning Wolf – A more effective way to solve problems
Transcript
- Urs: We had some technical issues recording this episode. will notice Bill's dropping out of the episode completely in the end. I got all my questions out and I think the answers are worse than they think too nonetheless. So, enjoy the episode! Hi, you're listening to Einfach Gelöst. I'm Urs and I'm happy to welcome two guests to our show. Bill McCarley is a leadership consultant, founder and president of Coevolution. He's best known for his work on power and control, and with them today is Henning Wolf. You remember Henning from our second episode back in March, so you know that he's a management consultant, founder and managing director of SAPSTURNW two, and also deeply involved with the responsibility process and the power and control model. So there's a common threat here, power and control. So common indeed that Bill and Henning have co authored a book on it, which we're going to talk about today. But first of all, let's get to know them better. Bill, would you introduce yourselves to our audience? Bill J. McCarley: Yes, I'm I'm Bill of Course and I've I've been in the consulting business for a really long time now, since nineteen eighty three. Before that I was a a I think a whiz kid at Texas Instruments. I I was very fast track. I started as an entry programmer. I quickly got promoted to the cost center manager that a a hardware and software team that managed a hundred and thirty mini computers in the factory and then I got promoted to go to the manufacturing floor where I had two hundred employees in five organizations. And then there were a lot of changes taking place. I happened to be there during the time that the desktop got created. So I I transitioned out in nineteen eighty three and decided to do management consulting was my primary choice of what I wanted to do. So I joined a a graduate program and leadership in organizational development at the University of Texas, got a master's degree there. And sh during that time I also attended a workshop called Money and You that changed everything for me. And really the foundation of the responsibility material and the power and control cycle material originated in this workshop was my great mentor, Marshall Thurber. And so since then I've done lots of management consulting and training and development. And right now I'm mostly focused on working with heads of organizations so that they can better understand that the way they think and the way their kind of attitude in life and what their viewpoints are are influencing whether or not they're successful and and the level of their success. So I sometimes refer to it as business psychotherapy, business therapy is instead of just plain consulting and my clients would probably say the same that that's what their experience is. they have to change for their business to change. And so mostly that's what I'm doing these days in a little bit of a site activity and web development. Urs: Thank you, welcome to the show. Henning, what about you? What what sh should we know about you? Henning Wolf: like Bill, I started my career thinking I'm going to become an engineer so I wouldn't have to talk to people. Boy, was I wrong. That was not what happened. Bill J. McCarley: Mm-hmm. Henning Wolf: And so I co-founded IT Agile, Bill J. McCarley: Mm. Henning Wolf: as you might remember. And yes, I loved working as a scrum coach, a scrum teacher, and as a consultant and also as the CEO of IT Agile. And then I met one of Bill's mentees, Christopher Avery, and he introduced me to the responsibility process. And I joined Christopher's leadership gift program. And there I met Bill. so I took a deep dive into the responsibility model and also the Bill J. McCarley: Yeah. Henning Wolf: power control model. And it changed my life and it changed my view on leadership. And it was so profound that I wanted only to work with that. So I founded ZEBS-2 and DEA together. with my wife Nadine. And so that's what we're doing now, teaching this material, working with mentees and coaches. And that's what makes sense to us Urs: welcome to you as well. So we've mentioned the power and control model a few times by now. Maybe it's time for our audience to learn what it actually is. Would you would you explain the model? What what are we talking about today? Bill J. McCarley: The model was developed over time, primarily through my work with Marshall Thurber, with W. Edwards Demming, with other sources of trying to understand okay, what works and what doesn't work. And so the model really starts with the idea that we have a problem, and clearly we have problems every single day, and some of them are more severe than others. The tendency is to evaluate whether or not the problem is significant and then how is it. How significant it is, and how do we stop the problem? So the general intention in the control cycle segment is okay, how do we stop this problem? So we create some rules or some policies, and like most organizations are full of rules and policies, and then we make everybody be compliant to those rules and policies, and then we feel like we have control and everything will be okay. The only problem is the control cycle tends to lead to other problems. And then we solve the other problems on the control cycle and we continuously try to stop things and suppress things and hold things down. Creativity ends up being diminished. It's it's has a lot of what I believe are very negative consequences being on the control cycle. The alternative is a little more difficult because we have anxiety and because we have anxiety we want the we want to stop the problem quickly. But if we don't really understand completely the problem our our s our system of advice just doesn't work very well. So to understand the problem completely, really from I understood from Dr. Demming's work is we have to really look at the system, look at the components of the problem. We have to go through this entire analysis and looking process. And if we can do that successfully, we can get really clear on the the true nature of the problem. And if we understand the true nature of the problem, then we can build a system around trust instead of compliance. And then we have real power because it's empowering, it's moving forward, it's not trying to stop things, it's not trying to suppress things, it's trying to be more expansive and more creative. So the power cycle leads to creativity and expansion and the control cycle leads to contraction and suppression. And that's why we believe it's useful for people to begin to understand that there's a there's an alternative, a more effective way to solve problems by using a power cycle than constantly working on the control cycle. So that's kind of the minimum bit of information about how the process on the on the control cycle works as compared to how the process in the power cycle might work. Urs: That's that's interesting. That's I think that's actually that's very philosophical. Like how how do we view life and how do we go through life? And I have an idea Bill J. McCarley: Yeah. Urs: what it's what it's about for business and leadership, but maybe could you spell it out for me so I'm I'm not completely mistaken? Bill J. McCarley: Well If you if you want to have an organization that's more empowered, you don't really want to suppress people and make compliant. It it's better to have agreements and and and so the general idea of business is can if I can get my people that w that were all working together to work based on agreements as opposed to rules and compliance, I'm more likely to have a successful, responsible organization. Because people will feel empowered instead of suppressed. They will feel like they have some influence and and creativity. And and so in in almost all cases I think agreement is superior to compliance. But it takes a different way of thinking to endeavor to create a that level of understanding in an organization, because people have a lot of anxiety and they try to stop the anxiety by controlling things. Henning Wolf: And I think in addition to that, that's. Bill J. McCarley: Okay. Henning Wolf: I don't believe that it's about your philosophy in life, because I think most people are both capable of using the control cycle part or the power cycle part of the model. But most of us tend to use the control cycle more often. And that's because what Bill said, all the anxiety in us and that it's important for us to learn how to confront our anxiety and be able to do looking even though we have some anxiety. I think that's a cool leadership skill if you're able to do that and don't react to anything just because you have some kind of fear Bill J. McCarley: Okay. Henning Wolf: in a way to come up with new rules. this problem or the situation that is evaluated by you as a problem will never occur again. Bill J. McCarley: Yeah, I think Innings said the word that's the magic word here, react. Most most managers and organizations are in total react mode all the time. And as long as they're busy reacting, they're they're they're not gonna make the same level of progress if they can get out of reaction mode and try to develop a a real understanding of what the hell's going on. Yeah. Urs: Yeah. So from from what I understood by by reading your material, this is very much about what we make of things. So I'm I'm always at a choice which which way I'm going, whether I'm going the control route, whether I'm going the power route. Even a choice what what actually is a problem and what's what's not a problem. for many people this might be a very strange notion. the problem just is So What can I do about problems when I when I encounter them? Bill J. McCarley: Well we make a distinction actually in the book about understanding w what's a problem and what's not a problem, like you said. It's it's so a lot of times we we just have thoughts about things. They're not really problems but that maybe create a little bit of anxiety because we're just thinking about And then the next level of anxiety we talk about is whether or not you actually have concerns and so concern is still something to pay attention to, but it's really not a problem yet. So maybe you don't need to do that much until you actually have a problem. You can just recognize, I'm concerned. And the next level we talk about is an issue. Well, it's a real issue now. It's no longer just a concern. The anxiety's gotten greater. And so we think, well, we better do something because you know this is an issue now. And then the final step in the equation of anxiety is it's a problem. And now we really know we need to do something because we've declared it a problem. So sometimes it's recognizing, okay, do I actually have a problem yet or is my just concerned about things? So that's one of the things that we think is important in in our understanding of when do we take action, when do we not take action. Henning Wolf: I guess a lot of people don't like to think of themselves as being afraid or having some kind of fear or even angst. So instead they are angry or they are pissed at someone. it's for us, it's the same thing. You don't have what you want or you don't want what you have. and you have some feelings about it, at least some kind of feeling of something is wrong or off here. Otherwise, it would just be a task and not a problem. Being on the first Urs: do it, so Henning Wolf: floor and wanting to go to the second floor is not really a problem. I know how to use stairs, so what's the problem? There's none. But it might be different if I'm... if I just broke my leg and don't know how to get to the second floor and feel some kind of anxiety. So it's important to make this distinction that when we are talking about a problem is it's a very personal perspective on a situation that is evaluated as a problem. So we are creating our problems. We could just say it's a situation. However, So I'm going to deal with it. Urs: Yeah. Actually that's a common thread in the book. We we're not only creating our problems, we're attracting situations, attracting people. There are several several passages in the book talking about that. to me, by the way, of speaking about philosophy, that's a very constructivist view on life. where you said it's it's not philosophical. there are the common threads and philosophy here. There's from from religion like ruling the earth at at the very very beginning. that's control cycle. later on we have this contractivist thing. We have the utrilitaristic band. like maybe the problem is not a problem because the It is good for many people and finally, of course, leadership philosophy like Dr. Deming as Bill mentioned. So I was wondering what what are your influences apart from certain people, what views did you incorporate in these models as you built them? Bill J. McCarley: I would say it's philosophical, but we tried to make it practical. So Urs: huh. Bill J. McCarley: we took the philosophical and the best we could to go from the philosophy to something practical. Unfortunately so many management books are philosophical but they don't put enough practical in and so Henning was particularly in influential in making sure we had something practical to go with with my tendency to be highly philosophical. You know, I've I've done a lot of personal growth and development. You know, I've tr I I trained with Tony Robbins, I've worked on Hot Coles, I've I've done all kinds of personal growth and development activities and therapeutic studies and and so ultimately the influence of understanding how a a a mind works, how a person's mind works, and and understanding how the tendency is not to be responsible. 'Cause 'cause certainly in the responsibility material the moment you practice not being responsible, y you create problems. And the more you practice responsibility, the more likely it is you're gonna not really have those problems. So it's it's important I think, in my mind at least, to say, Okay, how do I be one hundred percent responsible for my life and and how it works? at my organization and how it works, my team and how it works. So it's this combination of the influences about responsibility which w originated for me at least with Marshall Thurber that I mentioned earlier. Henning Wolf: And I think for me, the main reason why I love this material is that I love the idea of being the creator of my life, especially when often enough I felt like the victim of others, the circumstances and problems that appeared. And to take back control, to be... aware of one's own power and ability to create and that even most of the problems were, no not most, all of the problems were just created by me is a very useful thought. At first you might feel it's all my fault. how the world is and how looking at the world. But on the other hand, it means you have a lot of influence because you can change yourself and then you can change at least your point of view on the world. Urs: absolutely. making that point of view clear to others was also a very important thing that I took fr from the book. Like just mentioning th something does not make it a problem. so if I if I mention that that I'm not perfectly happy about let's say the sound quality in our podcast, which is excellent, I know. then that doesn't mean that you need to ruffle your mics and see to change anything. But maybe it's just something that came to my mind and it's it's it's just an observation and it's not even an issue or or something to be anxious about or or a problem. Whereas in organizations often if if there's an offhand remark by some sort of leadership figure, people try to get this solved no matter what. I remember a situation a dear colleague of ours, Wolfgideon once told me about where where he was talking in a kitchen to some other manager and an employee overheard the conversation and spent the next Bill J. McCarley: Okay. Urs: two weeks just working on that issue that they mentioned which was not important at all and time not too well spent. So how does the model help us avoid situations like this or what practical advice, maybe if it's not a model question, do you have for people In situations like this. Bill J. McCarley: Part of what you described is why we have the the hierarchy of anxiety in the that we talk about in the book. Is this just something you're thinking about? If so, don't Urs: Mm-hmm. Bill J. McCarley: do anything. Just recognize that the boss is just thinking about it. And and don't really take any action if the boss is just thinking about it. So we encourage asking, you know, is is that a problem or is that just something you're thinking about? And to kind of avoid that tendency. And and certainly there's plenty of plenty of that goes on, especially when leadership is in the room saying, whatever they're thinking. And and so one of the things we recommend is say, okay, identify what level of anxiety do we have here. What is this really a problem or not? So I think that's a a critical way to to to determine whether or not you need to pay attention to it. Henning Wolf: And I think the other maybe useful tool in the book I was thinking about when it was described, the situation is one of the seven tools we introduced, powerful help. You know, because sometimes people think they should help in this situation because they heard it as a problem and think they need to solve it for their boss, even before he asked. and, you know, it's, it's nice. are nice people and want to help. but often enough, we try to Bill J. McCarley: Mm. Henning Wolf: help where no one asked us to help. So it's also recognizing that, you know, maybe we just help because we have some kind of anxiety that. They won't like us because we overheard it, they knew it, and then later on they say, why didn't you do anything about it? so it's, I guess in this situation, it's important to be very explicit about, is this really a problem for the organization? And is it worth our time to invest whatever in really solving this problem? Urs: Yeah, so that there's there's always this fear that people may be over communicating, but I guess what you're saying is there is no such thing as overcommunicating. You be be explicit to the point of fault so people know what you're thinking and what you're what you're talking about. Bill J. McCarley: Well, in the original the original model that when I first developed it, the where the word evaluation is now in the model. I put the word assumptions. So we we the the way you handle assumptions is you ask questions to find out if your assumptions are accurate or not. So yeah, you'd really have to watch out for assumptions. Henning Wolf: And for some it might sound like over communication, but I think the important point is Bill J. McCarley: Mm-hmm. Henning Wolf: to have enough clarity in every moment so that people know what are they working on, how will their work contribute to the whole idea of what we try to achieve here. If it needs a lot of communication, then communicate a lot. But if you find other ways to get to this clarity, well done. Urs: Actually this this reminds me of of the part where you where you spoke about powerful goals in the in the midsection of the book. so you say that that goals need to be achieved with levity and enthusiasm instead of becoming an obligation. and That reminded me of Dr. Deming who said that that goals in organizations are commonly set in a way that they're unachievable and therefore resistance rises and people don't want to work with management. So what should we do to get to better goals? How can I as a leader set a goal in a way that my employees like to work on that goal and And love working with it. Bill J. McCarley: That's a very good question. Certain certainly, you know, first you would include them in the goal setting process, especially in sales organizations. A lot of time the management sets goals for salespeople and the salespeople don't really have any buy-in. They go out and do their best. But they they can only do what they can do. And ultimately, I think you ask the salesperson how w how much are you gonna sell this month? as opposed to telling them how much they're supposed to sell this month. And so there's there's there's only obligation and and goals like that. And it's very difficult for managers to say, okay, what what do I do now? Because what I want to have happen, my employee doesn't want to have happen. Or I have I have a client right now in the real estate business. He needs things done. And he tells his employee, I need this done in twelve months. I need this project at this completion point in twelve months. And his manager says, it's gonna take fourteen. And so since I talked to both of them, the manager tells me, it's gonna take fourteen. How do I tell my boss that it's gonna take fourteen when he wants it to be twelve, but he keeps telling me twelve. Because well you tell him it's gonna be fourteen. So And he has to begin to understand the reality of of the goal has to be match what reality is. And if it doesn't match what reality is, it's a failure. And and and certainly everybody's gonna be more enthusiastic about goals they participate in that they want to do. That's the challenge is how do you remove obligation where people aren't doing it because they're in some level of compliance or trying to make it happen because they're told they need to or they must. Henning Wolf: And I think it's not the same motivation for everyone and it's not necessary that everyone is motivated by the same thing concerning one goal we have together. But it's important that everyone finds something. some people are very... Bill J. McCarley: Mm-hmm. Henning Wolf: goal oriented in a way that, you know, if there's stuff and it can be done in 12 months instead of 14, they want to try. And they are highly motivated by not doing it the boring way they know in 14 months, but they want the way it could be maybe done in 12 months. And others are not really, you know, driven by that, but maybe driven by, I want to work on a cool team. and I want to help my colleague or I want to help my boss because I like him as a person. and that's all of that is totally fine. It's not important how you are motivated to do it, but at least you must find your some kind of motivation to want to be a part of this. And of course, we can't ensure over a time of 12 or 14 months that you're not going maybe someday lose your motivation. So I guess there is leadership necessary to at least remind people of their original motivation or find new motivation to do it. Bill J. McCarley: It's always helpful if there's a really good why. Urs: there are many more practical parts in the in the later parts of the book, like powerful pivots where you find out what you really want. That was very inspiring to me. the powerful beliefs, powerful agreements with with a with a great list of what makes an agreement actually great. What's your favorite practical part and why is it that? Henning Wolf: I guess for me it's the powerful pivots too, because maybe it's also how my brain is wired. What makes it sometimes difficult for me to talk to people who see no alternatives, because my brain delivers hundreds of alternatives and options most of the time. So I love the idea of, finding out what I really want and why I don't want this or why I prefer this over that and then playing around with new options I can generate in my head. And it's okay to do that, of course, alone, but it might be sometimes difficult to do it together with others because of, you know... their anxiety to think out of the box or my anxiety to trust in them that they could understand what brilliant ideas come out of my mind or whatever. But it's for me one of the coolest things to always have the feeling of I have options and I'm choosing whether I want to do it this way or one of a lot of alternatives I have. For me, it's coming back to this, I'm the creator, because I can create new options and at least choose between different options. Urs: let's wrap things up What we need to hear is what's the book called and when's it out and how to get it, of course. Henning Wolf: the book is called Power Control. Shocking. And you can get it in August. think end of August is the official date it's going to be released. August. Urs: so the German edition is published by D Punkt as always, I guess. Henning Wolf: Yes? Urs: what about the English edition? Henning Wolf: We don't know yet, so we don't have the English publishing ready. Urs: Alright, so maybe we can update that later. Okay, so thank you for coming on our show, Henning Bill. It's an interesting book, it's was an interesting read and th great conversation with you. Thank you both. Henning Wolf: Thank you for having us.