Latest / Boner and Mirror Tarot / The Magician Was Born To Do This
Transcript
- Molly: Hello and welcome to Bona and Mira Tarot, the delightfully irresponsible little sibling of Bona and Mira Tarot. My name is Molly and every week three Tarot cards will end this podcast. One gets fucked, one gets married and one gets pushed off a cliff. It's childish, it is completely subjective and it is surprisingly revealing because if you know me and you know Bona and Mira Tarot, you'll know that I don't believe the Tarot is about predicting the future. It's a mirror. a way of meeting yourself through symbolism and psychology, embodiment and the wisdom of the cards. And Bona Emeritaro takes exactly the same approach, just with a lot more giggling. put three tarot archetypes through the highly scientific and deeply philosophical game of fuck, marry, push off a cliff. Which archetype deserves your undying devotion? Which one's worth a passionate fling and which one absolutely needs to get into the sea? Along the way, we'll explore what the cards reveal about attraction, avoidance, projection, shadow, values, and the wonderfully strange ways we make meaning. Expect depth psychology, archetypes, embodiments, the odd tantric tangents, and plenty of opportunities to laugh at yourself. And if you want to take the game off the podcast and into your own tarot practice, then I've made something for you. A little field guide called Tarot After Dark. It's packed with ridiculous tarot games, guided reflections, explorations of projection and desire. So you can make your own terrible decisions. and then get curious about what the hell that might reveal about you. you can grab it completely free through the link in my show notes or the link in my bio on Instagram. So whether you're here for the psychology, the Tarot or your own deeply irrational grudge against the Seven of Cups, welcome to Bona and Miratorro. Let's shuffle the cards, suspend our dignity, and see who's getting married today. Hello and welcome back to another episode of Bona and Mira Tarot. I am so delighted and honoured to be joined by Jenna today. So a big welcome to you, Jenna. Could you please tell the listeners who you are, what you do and your relationship to tarot and meaning making. Jenna Dayle: Yeah. Hi Molly, thanks for having me on. so I I'm Jenna. I'm from actually the Maritimes in Canada. in the last few years moved out here to the east. And sort of my my day job, I have quite the portfolio career. So I sort of lean back into content consulting, content creation, like helping people move online in their work. but I also spent the last few years doing relational mentoring and coaching for people who would classify as people pleasers or self-loss in relationships. So I do a lot around relating and then bringing in the spiritual elements of relating as well. And when that sort of felt like I needed to move away, it felt like I need to bring even more spirituality in and I've been doing tarot for nine years now. the last six professionally reading for others. So, yeah, so that's a little bit of like what I do and now I I run my account relating to the tarot and just sort of playing this year Molly: Thank Jenna Dayle: as I turn forty was the promise to myself that I would, you know, had had done tarot professionally and sort of brought up pieces online before and just told myself when I hit forty it was sort of go time to to step into the light and and just start playing and sharing and talking and all the things. So, so that's what I'm doing now, which is amazing. and my story with Tarot is that I met a guy on Tinter who did not end up having that connection, but so we turned into friends almost immediately. And I was sitting having tea with him and he brought it a deck. And I was like, what's this? Cause I've I was sort of that kid that ran to the astrology section of the newspaper and the magazines and had never really seen a tarot deck in life before. So this was like really early thirties. And was just enamored by it. And so we went off to a shop and I picked out the Celtic tarot, which that's both sides of my lineage way back is from that area in Europe and just felt really drawn to that and have been practicing ever since. So sort of my story is like relationships is under everything that I do, relating and and so I love the story of just like meeting someone on Tinder who introduced me to Tarot. So Molly: Thank you so much. What a, like the stars are aligning, the coincidences are happening, the synchronicities, like your work in relationships, the fact that you met, like the fact that you know Tara because you met someone on Tinder is just an iconic story. And what a journey to come. I mean, I'm not saying that your journey has led you to be on this podcast. Everything leads to now. No, I'm joking. But like. The fact that you're on here and kind of everything that you do like around relating with the tarot, relationships feels really potent with what we're about to do, which is essentially making relationships and relating to symbol through the tarot. Are you ready to make some choices on behalf of pieces of flimsy paper? Jenna Dayle: Yeah, yeah, let's do it. Molly: Let's do it. Cool. Okay. I'm going to pull three cards from my, light seers deck by Chris and you know, that is my home girl deck. Jenna Dayle: that deck too. And we were just talking too about Molly: awkward pause whilst I shuffle. Jenna Dayle: that we're both educators, which I love too and I I didn't mention, but I think yeah, love talking Molly: Mmm. Yeah. Yeah. Jenna Dayle: to people about tarot and like learning. I like I love that we're both I don't know, it's hard to call yourself a tarot teacher when you like I love tarot 'cause you always feel like a student and I'm just I'm really excited. 'Cause I I always learn from people. Molly: Absolutely. mean, is... That is absolutely the thing that's totally happening for me, right? Like the podcast itself, when I started recording, I was like, this is going to be a fun experiment. But almost every episode I walk away and I'm like, huh, I never saw the tarot card that way. Huh, isn't that really interesting? And I mean, it just is the total point of tarot, right? Like the reason that we read cards in certain ways, because it reflects the part of our human experience. And so... every time you pick up a new deck, you get to see the world through that person's eyes. Or when you talk to somebody about their particular hatred for a card or, you know, why they're in love with a card, it's because you get to see the world through their eyes. So it's absolutely, yeah, I'm just enamored by this process. And we've got some lovely cards. Are you ready? Okay. Jenna Dayle: yes, I'm ready. Molly: We have got the Ace of Cups. Jenna Dayle: Hmm. Molly: We have got the ace of pentacles. So two Jenna Dayle: Ha ha. Molly: aces that made an appearance. And then we have the magician. Jenna Dayle: Mm. Just a lot of ones, isn't there? One one one. Molly: 111, it's a good combo, it's a good combo. Jenna Dayle: Yeah. Molly: What are kind of your initial thoughts, like impulses? Are there any cards that you're like, my God, yes, that is the one, one being the joke of the entire episode, I'm sure. Or are there any that you're like, God, no, get off a cliff? Jenna Dayle: Think right now I'm like Is polyamory on the table? Like can we bring like nobody's going off the cliff, everybody's welcome home, you know, sort of thing? Like let's not do this. We have to kick somebody out of this. Molly: a heartbreak. Jenna Dayle: Like four some, five some like no. Molly: It is the nature of the game and I say this almost every second episode. isn't fuck, marry, marry or it isn't fuck, fuck, fuck. We Jenna Dayle: I know. Molly: do have to push one of a cliff. And interestingly, there has also been one particular episode that I remember and I think we pulled like two fives and a really not nice other card. And she was like, can I just push all of them off a cliff? Jenna Dayle: Ha ha ha. Molly: Yeah, get rid of them. But yeah, this is a particularly challenging set, I think, because I mean, without wanting to use too much wordplay, obviously they're ones, they all have a lot of potential. They all have a lot of potential. Jenna Dayle: Hm, yeah. Which like also says maybe push them off the cliff 'cause like you have no idea yet. You have no idea yet. Molly: Do we want the potential? Shall we start with, there any that you're leaning towards like a hard marry? Because sometimes Jenna Dayle: Mm. Molly: we have to do like process of elimination here because they all, I feel like they could all sit in most of the positions and be fine. Jenna Dayle: Yeah, I think so. Ugh. Usually I have, you know, I'm a Sagittarius stellium, so usually I have like this like blunt, ready to go, sometimes funny answer to things, but these are really stumping me. So every time I start to focus on one, it's like, what about? What about? What about? Molly: No. Jenna Dayle: And isn't that just the way of potential? Like I do think with the Aces of Ones, like we don't there's like total uncertainty. It it really is that moment on Tinder where you just see the picture and like you have no other information yet. It's just Molly: Hmm. Jenna Dayle: a like a a burst, right? Oof. I think Molly: Yeah. Jenna Dayle: I think if I had to marry, I think I'm gonna go with the ace of pentacles. because Molly: okay. Jenna Dayle: I have a Taurus n I'm I have a Scorpio Sagittarius stellium and so and my north note is Taurus and so I'm always sort of like learning I should move towards earth energy in this lifetime. And my Molly: Mmm. Jenna Dayle: partner has an earth moon and it is very supportive. And I think if you're gonna Molly: Mmm. Jenna Dayle: partner and marry, like you gotta be with that your lifetime, like that's the lifestyle, that's the energy you're attaching yourself to. And I think, yeah, Ace of Pentacles for sure. And because Molly: Mmm. Yeah. Jenna Dayle: I'm very career oriented, like I love just making what I love work. So Ace of Pentacles Molly: Hello. Jenna Dayle: works for me, like yeah, let's keep doing that. Molly: I love that. And I'm still stumped. I love what you brought in about that earthy energy and that moving towards. I am very earthy in my chart. I have Taurus, Virgo, Virgo, and then another two Capricorn placements somewhere. So it's just... It's a lot of earth. I mean, one fire sign, I'm Aries in Mars. So the fire is sign and the fire is planet, but that's the only time it appears. The rest is pretty much just stumpy earth. And so then there's part of me that's like, okay, does this feel like home? Is an ace of pentacles a home? Yeah. Or Jenna Dayle: Like aligned compatible. Molly: is it too grounded for me? Because sometimes I think like, it would potentially be like two Taureans, like just stuck in their stubbornness together, maybe, who knows. But that's what I'm thinking of. I'm also thinking of like their relationship to body, because there's something about the ace of pentacles, all of the pentacles that bring me back again and again and again to not only the physical world, but more importantly to my body, just because that's my relationship with. engaging with the physical world is realizing that I'm not just this kind of walking head, but actually I do have a body to engage with. And so the ace of pentacles for me is that opportunity to come into reflection and come into relationship with body where it is that number one, it's about self. And so I'm also, as I'm talking, I'm becoming more convinced by the ace of pentacles as a marriage partner. And the only reason I'm kind of being swayed is because the ace of cups similarly for me is that relationship to self through feeling and emotion. And so I'm trying to decipher and Jenna Dayle: huh. Molly: discern whether what would I find more appealing in a marriage? Is it that person that can bring me back to the heart or is it the person that can bring me back to body? That at the moment, those are the two things that I'm going through. So I'm gonna leave mine in the open for now. Isn't Jenna Dayle: huh. Molly: it interesting that neither of us chose the magician? He's either getting pushed off the cliff or fucked. What are you thinking about the other two? Jenna Dayle: Well, I love what you said about Ace of Cups. For me, like Ace of Cups is is like that moment where like you're just feeling really good, like you have more than enough capacity that's overflowing that you can actually begin to like choose what where you want to put that. Like I I always think of like Lindsay Mack connecting it to self-love of like, well when I have more than enough self love or even if we want to talk about source or spiritual, like innerly sourced care for myself, well then I can move through like the two and the three and the f like start putting it, placing it places, right? Yeah, this is hard. Where the magician I've always had a thing for magicians, so I'm probably gonna put that in the kiss, you know? Like there's Molly: you Jenna Dayle: there's an air of mystery, like but at the same time I also think there's I mean it's still really the fool. It's just the fool with a little bit of like, well now I have a few like tricks up my sleeve, so it's it's a little bit like the Playboy archetype of like, well I'm just gonna tell you one thing and do another sort of thing. Like I'm not sure what this will materialize into. I mean I love the magician. I think the magician is is a vision of something that we can't see yet and we actually don't even have context. Like there literally is no physical form for it yet that we have s come to us. Like you said, sitting with your podcast, like it's like you have no idea what the forum is. You gotta sit there and and wait for something to to come up. But Molly: No. Jenna Dayle: this is like really hard. Molly: This may be the hardest three that I've done so far. I love what you say about the magician and I agree with you. I think I'm probably going to end up placing him in the fuck category. So Jenna Dayle: Uh-huh. Molly: a few reasons. One, think that he, I mean the... sometimes the kind of explanation that I give, you know, in the Rider Waite Smith, you see he's got the four suits. So he's got a sword, he's got a wand, and the idea is that potential and we bring down the kind of energy of source in order to create something that for me, it feels very magician. And so in the bedroom, I feel like he's going to show you things. that you've never experienced before. Like he's Jenna Dayle: Well Molly: going to be doing things and you're going to be like, I didn't realize that was possible. I didn't realize I could Jenna Dayle: Mm, mm. Molly: get into it. I didn't realize my leg went back this far. You know what mean? Like I think that he would show you things that were outside of what you could possibly imagine, which feels very magician, Jenna Dayle: Yeah. Molly: right? Like bringing things into the material that felt unimaginable. I do think that I definitely couldn't place him in the Mary purely because of the lack of structure and because of the lack of commitment, not lack of commitment, but it is all about potential. So Jenna Dayle: Mm. Molly: the shadow side of that or the potentially negative side of that in relationship could be like a little bit too floaty away, you know, like I love what you said about how he's just like the fool, but with more tricks, it feels like the fool put a different hat on, you know, like he gathered some materials. And so there is the potential there for it not being that long term committed relationship. But I'm curious to see what Trixie's gonna show me. Jenna Dayle: Mm-hmm. Yeah, 'cause I I feel like the magician is like I feel like it'd be different every time but also I feel like the magician would be a natural at whatever they do. Like 'cause I always think of that idea of like gathering the tools of like what we're born, like the fool is sort of still in the birth canal and like the magician is that moment you're here on earth and you materialize and like you kind of have a personality or you have different talents and so I feel like you're with someone who like if they're in the fuck category, like is this what they're a natural at? Right. This is what they're na most naturally good at. and I mean he they do he does hold up that wand, so I mean that's good for me. So like that's the one he's using the most, it seems like. Yeah. Molly: Mmm. What a flex. What a flex to be... You were born to be good at having sex with me. magician is what you're born to do Jenna Dayle: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Molly: and that, yeah, and that his wand that he draws down. I love the kind of relation with the word inspire and how it in Latin comes from in spiritus, that in breath of God and draws down that breath of God and maybe the sex with him makes you feel like you are drawing in the breath of God. Jenna Dayle: Having a spiritual experience. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Molly: best spiritual experience, I think that's what it's going to be. And so I'm, like, he's my firm fuck. I'm good about that. Jenna Dayle: Yeah. I I think that's where we're headed here. Me too. Mm-hmm. Molly: And now we're in this really difficult position, right? Because I'm leaning towards Jenna Dayle: Mm. Molly: marrying the ace of pentacles now that we've spoken about kind of that, you know, the potential, the earthiness, the body, but what does it mean to throw off the ace of cups off a cliff? What does that mean? Jenna Dayle: You know, I it's hard not to position the Ace of Cups next to the Ace of Pentacles in this conversation. Like music's that's who it's up against. But I I think one part of this is remembering that like I want a partner I feel safe with in the body, not just safe within the heart. 'Cause like when I think about past Molly: Thank Jenna Dayle: relationships and old patterns, like my heart doesn't always isn't always attracted to what feels safe to the rest of my system and the rest of my body and the fact that like my body didn't know what felt safe and grounded for a very long time. So like I feel like the person who like the ace of cups person, like maybe more in a shadow than like all the really positive elements that that you discussed earlier, is somebody who like floods my heart. a little too much that like I I'm not cognizant of what else is going on in my mind, like what my mind rationally sees of this person and perceives. Like my clarity's not there. Maybe like my groundedness of what my body feels like isn't there. Maybe my spiritual sensing aba around this person with the wands isn't quite there. But because my heart is so flooded. And so I just it's like, but we have chemistry. And it's like that has gotten into but they like me so much. You know? Mm-hmm. Molly: Yeah, I mean, they're hard, hard relate to that. And I just love that perspective of whilst that individually the ace of cups as kind of that person that we're considering could absolutely be like very dreamy, very, you connected, like how would that impact me? And I also know that I have had previously and maybe sometimes still do. We're working on it. It's Jenna Dayle: Hm right. Molly: a work in progress but I'll have a tendency to want to feel chosen and to want to feel like I am special and that this person loves me and likes me and that will then negate all of my, you know, the wisdom of the body and the wisdom of like, you know, what I actually can see in front of me. all goes out the window when I feel I'm like, my god, they really like me. I must be worthy and therefore I abandon all of my other boundaries. So that in its shadow side could be the thing that allows me to release my grip on the idea that we have to chuck you off a cliff. We're gonna Jenna Dayle: Right. Molly: very gently push you off. Like it's just gonna be like a small boop. And there is a soft landing at the bottom ace of cups, but I do think I agree with you. I think she, he has to go. Jenna Dayle: It reminds me of like someone who like like a situ you know how situationships go. We don't we all but the beginning of it Molly: No, never been in one, Jenna Dayle: no the beginning of one that I had was like when I was really low and like in a like an emotionally grieving and kind of space and like here's this person who's willing to like wrap me up in a hug and like give me all this love. And then the attachment to that that like immediately changed lasted way way way too long because like the initiation, the ace, the potential of that started with so much care and like almost like emotional rescue. Molly: Yeah, they're way too long. Gosh, that hits me. Like I can say with absolute certainty that there have been times that I have stayed in relationship too long and have stayed because of the initial potential of like, but it has the potential to be good. when it's good, it's good. You know, like, and that of course is my own attachment style, right? Like it is an anxious attachment. and using that kind of potential as an excuse to actually see what's happening, which is it's not currently working. But it could work, I could fix him, you know, like... Jenna Dayle: But we did, but if we could just go back to the ace sorry ace of cups Molly: Yeah, yeah, sorry. Like genuinely, every episode I feel the need to preface this with like a warning of we take the tarot very seriously and we love Jenna Dayle: Mm. Molly: it. And we know that each archetype has just an abundance of teachings and meaningful gifts for us. But in the context of this podcast, we're allowed to say that the Ace of Cups is that moment when you've been in a situation for too long and actually you wanna fix somebody and we're gonna push them off the cliff. Sorry. Let's do Jenna Dayle: Yeah, let's do. Molly: that. Okay, so what started to be as a fairly challenging, I mean, I think it still gives me a little bit of like, these are all really potent cards, but I feel like we're gonna fuck the magician, marry the ace of pentacles and push the ace of cups off a cliff. bye bye ace of cups. Jenna Dayle: Agreed. Yeah, I agreed. Molly: we'll see how that night with the magician goes. We'll be learning all about ourselves. Yeah, yeah, Jenna Dayle: It'll just be a night 'cause they'll disappear in the morning. Molly: he's gone into the wind the next day. He's off to do some magic elsewhere. My last two questions for you then are out of the entire tarot deck, who is the sexiest card and who is the biggest walking red flag? Jenna Dayle: My I have my goodness. I'm like sexiest, you know, like I'm such a word person, so I'm like, okay, this is there's a very specific, you know, nature to that. my immediate o is always death. I think part of it is just having a Scorpio Venus. But I do think there's something really sexy about like a bad boy on a white horse. Like it is ace of it's the ace of cups, really. It's that that sort of like draw. But I also think that there's something sexy about people who know how to end things and people who know to how to cut down their ego and people who know how to tell the truth and people who have like to evolve. and I think even like I I'm thinking of like Rider Wade Smith imagery of like the skeleton on the horse. It's like you know, the bare bones of somebody. Like they aren't pretending to be anything other than what they are. And I think that's like one of the sexiest qualities. I think when we can't contextualize what we like about somebody sometimes I think it's because they're just so damn comfortable in who they Molly: you Jenna Dayle: are and that's what it is. Even if like who we are we don't exactly like every part of them, but to just have someone who knows who they are and is unafraid to Be honest about that is really sexy. Molly: hard relate to that. The death has come up before as the sexiest card, which I absolutely love. And I love the fact that so many of the archetypes who are sometimes considered the more challenging cards to work with, like we've had the devil too many times that I can count, we've had the tower, we've had death. And I just love the fact that these cards are not getting the sexy attention they deserve. Like, and I so agree with you, death. there is something really sexy about someone who is very willing to put in boundaries and to allow things to fall away. And I imagine that in kind of the microcosm of this person that we're imagining is death, that they don't have a rigid sense of defensiveness. know, like if Jenna Dayle: Mm-hmm. Molly: they fuck up or if they do something or realize that actually, you know, they want to evolve in some way, they're kind of like, yeah, do you know what? I'm going to release that. I'm going to let that go. They're not rigid and holding onto their sense of self for kind of ego preservation. They're just like, okay, that's no longer serving me. And that is also an incredibly sexy quality. Hmm. Jenna Dayle: Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I agreed. Molly: Red flag? Jenna Dayle: Red flag. So many. So many. my goodness. This isn't the red flag, but of course I immediately think of the devil because I think of like the situation, like the dynamic that is like born between two people when they meet, and it's like just red flags all around. But I don't think the devil is really like a person. I think it's the experience that that occurs. So I'm really like going into the minor cana on this one. It's gotta be like Knight of Swords. It's gotta be Knight of Swords. Yeah. Molly: okay. Yeah, the Knights, bless them, have turned up quite a bit for biggest red flag. Jenna Dayle: I was gonna say the king too. I think he evolves into the king if he's in shadow into the shadow g and I don't un yeah, don't get me started on like the shadow king of swords. Molly: I mean, the thing is, is one thing that I have noticed about myself and recording for this podcast and that I have, and I'm going to continue to take to therapy, is that if there's a king or there's a knight, they're going off the cliff. They're going off the cliff mostly. I mean, some of them I have married. I did marry the king of wands in one of these episodes, but like most of the Jenna Dayle: Mm, mm. Molly: time I have quite a visceral reaction to their shadow side, which says a lot about me. Jenna Dayle: I could g get down with a King of Cups. I mean, sure. no, we differ. Molly: No. I could. could. Don't get me wrong. Every episode. I'm sure there are some people that listen to that be like that be like that are like last episode she hated this card and then this episode she loves this card. And that's the fun and whimsy of this podcast is you never know which version of model you're Jenna Dayle: Yeah. And tarot. Molly: going to get and which version of tarot and and which three cards come out. Exactly. Jenna Dayle: On what day? Molly: But there has been a recurring pattern where the nights are are ending up as the kind of bad boy, fuck boy, red flag. But what about the Knight of Swords in particular? Feels red flaggy to you. Jenna Dayle: Well, I think like even when I was thinking about sex, I was thinking knights as well. And I think it's just because I I mean, I can only speak from my own perspective, but like these are these are the the parts of you that are going out to experience life. I always say, like the page is sort of like still in the classroom, you know, and then in in my mind when I think educationally. And so the night is like out there gaining experience, out there doing the thing. Like they're not trying to lead anybody. They're not trying to, you know, hold a lot of space like the queen for for things. Like they're out on an adventure and I think that that's both sexy and a walking red flag sometimes, depending on what's going on. So immediately I went there and then but I think with the Knight of Swords I think that the People in my life who have brought me to the edge of a devil experience with them, who has brought up the most of my stuff that's really difficult to experience because of also their stuff and the way it plays them with their stuff has always been somebody who is more logic, more like faster to move like move from one person to the next, faster move from one thing to the next, one idea to the next idea, one truth to the next truth. It's to the point where you're like, what the fuck is true? and like no thank you anymore. Like it it's it's painful. And I think that's the thing about swords is anytime you engage with a sword, yeah, you're gonna get real Clear real fast, but it's probably gonna be a pretty painful experience to do so. Molly: Mm. Jenna Dayle: And I feel like a lot of that air sign night energy I've met in people have to me like that's when we can't get to the pentacles, like we can't get to the cups. Like we're ignoring our body, we're ignoring our heart, we're ignoring our spirituality, and we are Molly: Bye. Jenna Dayle: Like he is so focused on what his mind is telling him is true and the way he sees it. he's just so quick to move, like and it's it's not a fun experience. I think that's a walking red flag. Like not Molly: See you now. Jenna Dayle: and I always see the I'm thinking of the lightseers where like the knight is running towards the motorcycle. So like there is a I think always turning their back on what you think is true, to follow what they think Molly: Bye. Jenna Dayle: is true. Like there's just no space for what you want to communicate in the situation. Molly: Yeah, they're almost turning their back on you in that particular depiction of the cards. And I really love what you bring in around the logic. And in a previous episode, we spoke about the Five of Swords as being someone who is someone in the room who tries to dominate with their intellectual prowess or that likes to think they're the smartest person in the room. And I think the same or similar could be said for the Knight of Swords. And I think that they, with their knighty energy of going out to experience and not quite managing to, you know, fully embody it yet, they're ready to, well, they make mistakes and they kind of push the limits and see what is what. I think that they would potentially have the air of thinking that they know best and not relinquish any kind of dynamic where there's conversation. And that to me is, that activates and triggers me in Jenna Dayle: Yeah. Molly: all sorts of places. Jenna Dayle: I I love that because it makes me think of the n like the difference between that knight and king, like that intellectual part. Because to me, like as soon as you think thought you said that I was like, yeah, 'cause the king is actually trained. Like the king actually knows and I I I'm not getting down on anybody, but I've you know, I've certainly mentored and spoke to people who have dated people like therapists who like when they're too logical of a therapist and less heart focused of a therapist, the way that those words they they do know what's going on, but they're so cutting and they're so logical that it actually ends up traumatizing their partner because their partner's just like told all their trauma all the time. So it's like Molly: Hmm interesting, yeah like Jenna Dayle: they weren't wrong, but also they were re traumatizing this person by telling them all the time what they saw in them. Molly: Mmm. Jenna Dayle: And it's that's disastrous. And not loving, no cups, right? No cups. No no pentacles. Molly: Yeah, yeah, it sounds like a bit of a lack of a cup going on there. But I love both of those choices. You've got death and then the knight of swords, a beautiful pairing of the sexiest and the biggest red flag. 100%. Yeah, like, bye bye. Yeah, Jenna Dayle: I mean the death would cut down the Knight of Swords in an instant. Yeah. Is that who's falling in the card, you know, like in the Roger Waitsmith? Mhm. Molly: And that's a different episode entirely as Howard, Death and the Knight of Swords have an argument or fight each other, put them against each other, let's see who wins. But I'm gonna say a massive thank you to you for coming to join me to explore this silly little game, to be curious and open and discuss your experience with the cards and your choices. So much wisdom and so much depth. So a big, big thank you to you. And yeah, if you're listening and you agree, disagree, think we've gone a bit crazy, think that we have just discovered a new philosophical kind of standpoint with our choices, let us know in the comments. Like, share, you know what to do. But I'm gonna bring the episodes to a close and say a final thank you to you, Jenna, for everything that you brought to this episode. And yeah, keep getting curious about the tarot and keep making questionable choices on behalf of small pieces of paper. So a big thank you and goodbye. And that is a wrap for this episode of Bona and Mira Tarot. A huge thank you to my guests for joining me and making some truly questionable life choices on behalf of the tarot. If you've enjoyed this episode, I would love it if you subscribed, left a review or shared it with someone who would definitely have an argument with a tarot card. And if you've been listening and thinking, I need to play this game, then good news, I have made you something. Tarot After Dark is my completely free field guide to desire, projection and questionable relationships with archetypes. Inside, you'll find Fuck, marry, push off a cliff, tarot date, red flag, green flag, unfortunately hot, and a whole collection of ridiculous ways to play with the cards. alongside slightly more serious psychology of why these games can actually tell us something about ourselves. Because sometimes deciding that you'd shag the night of ones is just funny, and sometimes asking why tells you considerably more than you'd expect. You can download Tarot After Dark for free using the link in the show notes or the link in my bio. And if that gets you curious about the slightly more serious side of my work, come and find me at Bone and Mirror Tarot, where I explore Tarot through depth psychology, embodiment and transpersonal practices. You can find me on Instagram at at bone and mirror Tarot, where I share readings, workshops and all the ways that I use the cards as a doorway into understanding ourselves a little more deeply. And finally, if you're listening and thinking I would love to come on the podcast and make some terrible decisions of my own, I would genuinely love to hear from you. Send me a message and let's make it happen. Thank you so much for listening. Until next time, keep laughing, keep getting curious, and remember, we take the tarot seriously, we just don't take ourselves too seriously.