Latest / Integrity at Scale™ / The Owner's Room: When Good Candidates Just Don't Show Up (And You're Starting to Panic)
Transcript
- Hey. Hey, Dr. Tara Vossenkemper here, and you're listening to the Culture Focused Practice podcast. Welcome back, welcome for the first time. Hopefully not welcome for the last time. We are wrapping up our hiring gauntlet miniseries with a special kind of episode. This is The Owner's Room, the first of its kind. And our focus is on when good candidates just don't show up and you're sort of starting to panic, you know, you're getting a little bit freaked out. So the point of this owner's room concept, 'cause this is a new concept for this podcast, is really just to have an unfiltered, unstructured, no checklist, no top five, no listicles discussion of the topic at hand. In this case, hiring. I will likely turn this into a discussion based thing with other practice owners at some point. But right now I really just wanna show up and talk about what's working, what's not working, maybe what I'm struggling with, what's real for me at this point in time, and honestly, this is gonna be good for anybody who's interested in getting an inside scoop at the messiness of leadership. So today's episode in particular, I already said it, but whenever good candidates just don't show up and you're starting to panic. This is a weird space to be in because it kind of feels impossible where you've maybe done all the right things. You've looked at your funnel, you've shored up all your processes, your culture's dialed in. You have you really just looking at this process and saying, I don't know what, I don't know what the fuck to do. I don't know what to do or how I'm gonna change anything. There's not any applicants, or you have all the wrong ones, or people are just ghosting mid-process, or they get through it and then they accept a position elsewhere. It's just, it's demoralizing, honestly. It's disheartening. It's demoralizing. It's. Exhausting. It's frustrating. It's um, it just sucks. It just sucks. So I don't have, I don't have tips to fix it. I don't have a, a thing to tell you to do that will make it all go away. I really just want to level with you from my own perspective. So I don't have a structure to this, but I do have a couple of question prompts and I thought that would be a nice sort of segue or like a way to kind of organize the episode. So I'm gonna go one by one. Uh, prompt number one is, how does it feel to lead when there are no good options in front of you? I will be totally honest that this has been the worst probably year that I've ever experienced with hiring. And I don't mean to say that we've made poor hires. What I do mean to say is that we have had so few candidates compared to what it was like three years ago, four years ago, five years ago. It's just such a different experience. So for me, how it feels to lead when there are no good options in front of me. I vacillate between, I'm really keyed in on trying to figure out what the fuck is going wrong and assessing and like questioning and looking at things with a fine tooth comb and doing research and developing concepts. Even this concept for my practice, this concept of like a hiring pipeline in a funnel was born out of a need to figure out what the fuck is going on, like what is going on. So I vacillate between that sort of this like really focused, intense, I'm gonna figure it out, you know, like a bulldog. And so that's one side. And then the other side is, uh, probably a little bit of hopelessness, a little bit of feeling demoralized or maybe a little bit of despair or hopelessness. I'm not really sure what to do or how to fix it, and so it just becomes, I don't know, kind of hopeless, I guess. I'm not really somebody who stays in hopelessness very long, though that's not, that's just not something, maybe a temperament maybe personality. I don't, I don't fucking know. I don't really care. I just don't stay there very long. I usually shift in, I'm like a horse, I'm like a lean into pressure animal. So when I do feel hopelessness or really like a sense of feeling really unsure, like I'm not clear what's going on or wrong, I feel like I've tried everything. I honestly, I just go into, um, assessing more, assessing further, assessing more, trying to get a feel for trying to really wrap my brain around there's gotta be something that I'm missing. Sometimes it's not something that I'm missing, like sometimes it's just circumstances. If your culture is dialed in, if your system is pristine, if you are focusing on the experience of what it's like for a candidate to come through your pipeline. If you've had people recently go through, even if they're interns or recent employees, and they say, no, this has been incredible. If you have competitive compensation. Sometimes it might be something related to the market that there's a sort of oversaturation potentially, or it could just be something like an increase in the number of practices, but then also I think there's an increase in the number of places where you can learn how to do your own thing. And so people feel much more confident, rightfully so, because they have all the information at their fingertips to go off and try their own thing. Whether or not they wanna continue doing that is different from them trying or attempting in the first place. And also, I think there's something to be said for if you've never owned a business and you go to do your own thing. I will speak for myself that it seemed and felt super easy. I was like, I'll fucking do this. And then I got into it and I was like, oh, goodness gracious. This is way more than I thought it was. And I love it. And I can't imagine doing anything else. And I think that it, it seems like more people need to go through that process than what used to be. So I'm, I'm a little bit going on a tangent, I think, but my point is that when I feel hopeless. I don't tend to stay there long. And instead, I lean into assessing, I talk with other group practice owners to get a feel for what's going on in their life. I might go to chat GPT and ask about the market, or just do some basic research on what the market looks like right now. What are the ways in which I could enhance the benefits or the compensation that I have in place? I mean, all of that. So. I guess I, I went from how it feels to lead to what I do, but I, um, feels frustrating. I think whenever I get stuck like that, whenever I feel stuck, I, I don't like feeling stuck. I don't think anybody does. I don't like feeling stuck. I get very frustrated. Yeah. Potentially a little bit of hopelessness, a lot of like intense focus that also comes out of that space. So yeah, that's it. The other piece that I'll say in terms of the feeling stuff is. I think I just really believe in the cyclical nature of things. And so there was a maybe big push a couple of years ago for a lot of people to join group practices or a lot of, um, a lot more candidates coming through and like being interested in joining. And now it's kinda shifted away where a lot of people are going to maybe like big tech companies, you know, like better help or like Talkspace or like those sorts of companies. Headway, et cetera. What they do with their data is a different conversation, but I think a lot of people are going to places like that. I'm sort of wondering what it's gonna look like in two or three more years, like how that landscape will change and then what will happen to the market and if there will be more candidates interested in going back to a place where they feel a sense of a strong sense of culture. They feel a sense of connection to the people that they're working with as well as the group that they're a part of. So I think too, there is maybe a little bit of hopefulness, but it's kind of like in the future it feels like, how do we stay in this now for whatever is coming down the pike? I always wanna say pipe, but I learned that it's coming down the pike with a K, so there's that. Okay. That's prompt number one. Prompt number two, question number two for Tara in The Owner's Room. How do you keep your standards high when you're burnt out and desperate? Honestly, this just comes from lived experience of bringing on the wrong people and being pissed the fuck off at myself for doing it. That's it. And also surrounding myself with others who will say no. So, having a checks and balances in place, like baked into how we do our hiring, having a checks and balances in place is insanely helpful because if I might be on the fence about, well, I mean, we really need a person. My integrator's gonna be like, Tara, you did this last time. No, we don't need a person. Or my DCO May might be like, yeah, we do, but that's not the right fit. Or vice versa. If they're on the fence, they're like, man, we really need somebody to blah, blah, blah. I might be the one to say. You guys no, like, we can't. Mm-hmm. We did this before. We're not gonna do this again. So it's nice to have, whenever you might be feeling, especially demoralized or especially, you know, burnt out or desperate, it's nice to have other people in place around you that are, I'm gonna say protective of the culture, protective of the practice, and thus able to say no if you are not in the right place to be able to say no with confidence when it's a no for a candidate. So I think the standards being high also. So, you know, how do you keep your standards high? I think the other way that I do this is that I remove myself from it. So again, I have people in place to, to sort of help with that, checks and balances. But I also, in the process itself, it's like. It's like, it's not really my decision. It's sort of like out of my hands who we hire. Of course it's not, but it kind of feels that way. Like I've built a structure so that we can use it and relax into it. And so if the structure's in place, then I just relax into the structure. If all of the assessments come back and everybody says, recommend with reservation, and there's one, do not recommend from my, my meet and greet from my team, or if there's some really key like logistical issues. We need a person who's full-time, fully licensed, interested in couples, and this person is wanting part-time, they're pre-licensed and they wanna work with kids. It's kinda like outta my hands, you know? So I think attempting to like, um, remove myself from decision making or like maybe structured decision making. Maybe that's a better way of saying it. In attempting to structure decision making, I'm able to keep our standards high. I will say sort of the, the pushback to this is I've questioned, especially in the past year, I've questioned whether or not our standards are too high or I'm like, Hmm, are we expecting too much out of people? And then I go back to the interviews that went well, and the people who came through and they say how great it was. They say how much they appreciated the interview and the way that it went down. And so I have this like internal grappling. It still happens. I still sort of wonder is there something that we're doing that's maybe too much? Are we expecting too much out of people? Are we expecting too much outta the process, outta people living up to the culture? I had a conversation with my leadership team about this very thing. I mean, probably a, a month ago if, if even. Time also doesn't exist, so I never know how long something has been, but I think it was about a month ago. And the, the, the concept, or maybe the topic that I brought up to discuss was if we are assessing for culture, and we are trying to do this thoroughly, but we also anticipate that people will grow in clinical skills, why don't we generalize that sort of thought process for people can grow in clinical skills and apply to culture. So what if people can grow into values as well? What if it's something like maybe you couldn't pick up on a value clearly and we, you know, we give somebody the benefit of the doubt or we say, you know what? I think we could teach this though. Maybe there's some things you can't teach. Like I think it's hard to teach something like a sense of right, wrong, you know, like a sense of fairness. If I'm thinking about like a hexaco or like a, the, the honesty, humility dimension. A domain on a, a hexaco, you know, a big hexaco assesses big five plus honesty, humility, and within a honesty, humility, there's fairness and read avoidance and modesty and sincerity. And so maybe something like fairness is not a thing we could tend to, but what if we could tend to something like, you know, um, own your shit. People just have to learn that it's safe. Maybe that's something that we model and we talk about repeatedly how we really value when people fess up to mistakes and that we do the same. And then again, by modeling it, by embracing people when they do that metaphorically or physically, if they like being embraced, you know, then we're allowing people to start to show up in that way. So that was a recent discussion, which is like maybe, maybe if we do have high standards with regard to culture, which I think that we probably do, but I also feel really protective of culture, as does my team and I think that there is the possibility that people can grow into some of the values, at least some of the behaviors associated with the values. Which kind of begs the question are you interested in the accurate behaviors or does somebody have to have a specific value? And if somebody can live in such a way that it sort of looks in accordance with values, is that enough? I don't know. I don't have an answer to that question, but I think it's interesting Kind of a follow up prompt to that is, you know, what keeps you hiring from someone? Just because they showed up. God, the whole fucking process for us, like having, you know, having a. Logistical based phone screen, having a meet and greet, having a skills portion of an, an interview. I love when people show up, but the reality is that not everybody is for us, and we are not for everybody. So I think I can hold those things in truth. And also what can be true at the same time is that I question are we doing things a little too intensely or could we ease up in any, any certain way? And what can be true also is that the market might be hard right now. And what can be true right now is that we have a good hiring funnel and we just don't have candidates coming through. And what can be true right now is that we need to maybe focus more on the attraction and engagement part of the funnel. We absolutely do for the record. Honestly, the entire process stops me from hiring someone just because they showed up, period. And I very early on, I love myself and I, I, you know, I value what I think, I value what others think too. But I knew very, very early on that I did not wanna be the only person making decisions about who joined the team because it didn't feel like it was mine. The practice, of course, is mine, but the culture is ours and so I might do very specific things and to try to enhance that culture and grow it and you know, like let it evolve to the extent that it's evolving in a healthy direction, I should say that. But. There's all these other people here who make it up. And so I knew I wanted there in put immediately. And so right away I had, again, I always think about checks and balances, but I had this something in place that was not allowing me, just by nature of being present, not allowing me to just bring somebody on because they showed up. I had a bunch of other people involved that might have said, yeah, girl, don't do that. Like mm-hmm. That is not a good fit for us. And so. Yeah, we don't just bring people on because of show up, although I do appreciate people showing up. I'll say that. Okay. Next prompt. What are you telling yourself when good candidates don't apply? This is hard for me. This is hard. My tendency, I told you before, I don't stay in hopelessness very long. That's not like a thing for me. You know, my thing is internalizing the issue, and by that I mean to say I think it's something I'm doing, like obviously I'm missing something. Clearly there must be something that we're not doing. What are we doing that's not hitting the mark? How is this something we need to fix? I'm not very good at distancing from that. I think that a lot of things, maybe this is like a very heightened internal locus of control. I don't know. I'm not super good at believing or maybe integrating that some things are outside of my control with things that are like process oriented, I should say. I know that there's, you know, I could get hit by a car as I walk to my own after I record this. I absolutely understand that life is just a series of, you know, um, we have very little control, but there are some things I do have control over and something like a hiring funnel, for example, is one of those things. I can't control if people show up. But it's hard for me to let go of that. It's hard for me to really fully believe like, yeah, there's nothing I can do. No, there are things I can do, I just don't know what they are yet. So that would be the thing, like this is what I'm telling myself when good candidates don't apply, is I must be missing something. We must be missing something. Are we showing up as ourselves, who's drawn to us, who's not applying? How many position openings are there? Like I'm looking to see what's going on. Also, how do we get in front of the right people like. You know, I've started to think more about, okay, if the market is like this and what does that mean for our mentorship program, what does that mean for our intern to employee pipeline? What does that mean for a long game with regards to hiring rather than an immediate, we need to hire, although we do need to hire, that's the thing that's happening right now. We need to hire and we don't have a lot of candidates coming through. It's just the fucking in tension right now. It is a constant source of tension. I also probably think there's something in here around me questioning if it's just us. And this is where I haven't reached out to my community lately, and so I think that's probably something that needs to happen. But where I sort of ask myself or I, I kinda wonder like, hmm. Is this just me? Like is it just us? Have we done something? Has my practice the way that we're talking about this, where we're posting positions like is it us? Something about us turning people off? I don't really believe that, but it does pop up. That's like a seed of doubt that pops up in my head and I say, I don't really believe that because I fucking love my team and they are awesome. And so I know that the right people find us, but I don't know what else is happening that less people are finding us. And so again, that's where I go back to, uh, sort of questioning what I'm doing or what we could be doing more. What are we missing? It's, it's all of that stuff I just talked about. Okay. Two more prompts. How are you holding both the structure and the self-doubt? Not gracefully is my answer. I, I sort of feel like there's no other option. Like I can't not hold it. It just is there with me. It sort of feels like walking around with grief or walking around with tension. There are some things that are unique to me as the owner to carry. Like I am the, that's my burden to bear. It's my cross to bear, you know? And so I don't think I do it well, necessarily. I don't think I do it gracefully. I get a sense of urgency and it comes across as frantic. And what I will say, what's great about my leadership team is that I know this about myself and they know this about me. So when it happens, I can sort of voice like I'm feeling, I'm feeling this, like a sense of urgency around this. And then it becomes part of the conversation. And just by talking, you know, that can help of course. But I, I don't necessarily think that I do this well. I just think that there's no other option. So it kind of feels like. What am I gonna do? Set it down? No. Like I have to carry it and I don't even know if it feels like, I don't think self-doubt is the right word. I don't think that it feels like self-doubt. It feels like process doubt or like I'm missing something. Like what am I fucking missing? You know, it feels like that sort of doubt. Like I must be missing something like, um, that that's the doubt that it is. I don't have doubt in my ability to figure out problems. I just have high self-efficacy. I, I don't know. Again, that's one of those, like, it's just there. I don't know. I didn't create it, it just exists inside of me. So I don't have doubt in my ability to like, solve problems, sort of fix things, sort of figure out what's going wrong. But when I get the sense that something is wrong and I don't know what it is. That, like, that's kind of the doubt that comes up. Like, something is wrong, like something must be wrong. You know, it's that sort of thing. Like I must be missing something. So I, I don't think I would call it self-doubt. Maybe I would, I'm not sure what I would call it. Process doubt. I doubt in the way that we're doing something, that's what it is. So, yeah, in terms of holding both the structure and the self-doubt, I don't have another. I don't have any other choices. I'm not willing to let go of the integrity of the structure or the practice. I think it'd be easy to just totally overhaul and hire a bunch of people in a certain way. And you know, I, I think it'd be easy, well, it would take time, but it would be like quote, easy. It'd be like a simple fix to just do something different. I don't even know though if that would fix it. I think maybe other agencies are also having trouble hiring. Even other like boutique practices are also having trouble hiring. And so what is most important to me about the practice is that we stand in our integrity, that we are true to our values, that we live them out, that we are true to the vision. We stay on course with it. And so again, I don't really feel like I have an option. I don't have the choice to set down the structure and I don't have the option to set down the doubt about the process. It's, I, it's just, it is again, it is my cross to bear, my burden to bear. Okay, so last prompt, and this is interesting. I feel like I've been dancing around this the entire time. I. Maybe already speaking directly to it, but what part of the hiring process feels personal right now, even if it's not? I honestly don't know if there's anything that feels personal, necessarily, but if I had to say something, I would say the same thing I've been saying. I feel literally it's a felt sense, I must be missing something. We must be missing something. What is going wrong? What is going on? How are people not finding us? Is there something that's not appealing about the way we are positioning ourselves or the practice? Are people getting a sense of who we are? What are folks being drawn to? Is the process too much? That stuff is, uh, I don't wanna say personal, but that's the, that's the stuff that comes up for me. Just imagine like a bunch of fucking gears, like the, the inside of a grandfather clock. As a side note, I would love a ginormous grandfather clock in my house. Not my house right now. 'cause you know, I full-time rv, but in my future house, a big ass grandfather clock. But imagine we open that and we see all these cogs and wheels and everything's sort of working. Everything's in motion. And you see there is one that just is missing. Like you could sort of see the outline of it and you know where it fits. You're like, what the fuck? Something, something used to go here. Like where is it? What used to go here? What's missing? It would be like the second gear that's missing. You know, it's like you, you take the one, it has a little handle and you twist it, but it, it's not connected to anything. So it's twisting all the other gears are in place. Here's something that's not working. There's something missing right here. That's how it feels, but I don't know what it is. So. That is the, I guess if any part of the process feels personal related to hiring, that would be it. Oh my goodness gracious. There are more questions of course, but like I said, this is really just to, I don't know, man, show up with you all. Show up with you in a way that's like, this is what's happening for me right now. This is what it's like at the practice. This is shit that's going on, and it may or may not resonate with you. I'd be happy if it did, but if it doesn't, that's fine too. And if you are listening and you're like, well, I know what's missing, Tara, fuck, email me. Let me know what's missing. Please, for the love of God, I would love to know. Otherwise, I'll just be, you know, talking with chat GPT about this until two in the morning trying to figure it out. And if you're not talking to Chat, you should be as a side note. So I think that's it. If you feel like you are alone, you're not, I hope that today's episode helps support my statement. It is data in the direction of, even if you hear me talk and you think, well, she knows what she's doing, maybe a little bit in some regards, and there are some things that are still a struggle that I. Still struggle with. There are definitely things that come up. I feel very confident in our systems and our process and our culture and our leadership and our EOS. There are so many things I love about what is in place and there are still things that I grapple with, including some of those, you know, the feelings around what am I missing? What are we doing wrong? What do we need to be doing better? It's sort of a constant, it's just a constant hum. And once this hiring thing gets worked out, it's gonna shift over to something else because that, that is. I think I've said on here before that my tendency is to turn all the stones over it, it's gonna happen again. There's going to be something I start to flip stones over and I think, hang on, what are we missing? What could we be doing better? So I think that I tend to do this period, and then when there's a problem, it gets really, really, um, exaggerated. It starts to sort of, uh, gets them highlighted, so to speak. It's spotlighted, you know? You know where to find me. Go to taravossenkemper.com. Listen to the podcast episode, subscribe if you want to, shoot me a dm, if you have feedback or thoughts or feelings or further questions. I love, love, love, love hearing from you. So that's all I got folks. It's good to see you today and I will see you next time. Bye. See ya.