Latest / The Restaurant Guys / The Jack Rose, Applejack, and America’s First Distilling Family | Lisa Laird Dunn

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The Jack Rose, Applejack, and America’s First Distilling Family | Lisa Laird Dunn · The Restaurant Guys

• 0:42
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Hello everybody and welcome.
• 0:43
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: You are listening to the Restaurant Guys.
• 0:45
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I'm Mark Pascal and I'm here with Francis Shot.
• 0:47
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Together we own stage left in Catherine Lombardi, restaurants in New Brunswick, New Jersey.
• 0:51
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: We're here to bring you the inside track on food, wine, and the finer things in life.
• 0:55
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Hello, mark.
• 0:56
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Hey buddy.
• 0:56
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: How are you today?
• 0:57
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I'm really good.
• 0:58
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Great as well.
• 0:59
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: We're gonna be welcoming today.
• 1:00
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Our good friend Lisa Laird, owner of LA ninth generation owner of Laird's Apple.
• 1:05
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Jack on the show.
• 1:06
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I don't even know who I was related to nine generations ago.
• 1:09
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Say, forget about making the same product.
• 1:11
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: It's gonna be a great show.
• 1:12
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: She's a lot of fun.
• 1:13
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: It's a Jersey product.
• 1:14
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: We got a lot to say about it.
• 1:15
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Imagine that.
• 1:16
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: We have a lot to say about it.
• 1:18
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Yeah.
• 1:18
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Um, so, uh, but I got a lot to say about something else.
• 1:21
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I am going to.
• 1:22
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: What a surpris.
• 1:23
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I'm so surprised.
• 1:24
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: So I'm gonna, this is one of those shows where I, I kind of know where we're going.
• 1:27
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I'm taking you on this journey'cause I think it'll be fun.
• 1:30
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Alright.
• 1:31
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I, I'm surprising you because I bought these from your daughters for many years.
• 1:34
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: You did?
• 1:35
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I brought them from my niece's niece, my grandniece.
• 1:38
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Ah, I saw them over on the table there.
• 1:39
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I'm so happy you're opening my box right now.
• 1:41
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I have girl scout cookies and my favorites are tagalongs and thin men.
• 1:45
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I have Bemoaned and Mark and I have privately bemoaned the diminution in the quality of Girl Scout cookies.
• 1:51
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: And quantity, not just quality, also quantity, but mostly our, because they're not as good and there's less of them.
• 1:56
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: That's, that's, that's correct.
• 1:58
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: So there are two companies that make Girl Scout cookies, little Brownie Bakers, and a BC Bakers.
• 2:03
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Mm-hmm.
• 2:03
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: And depending on the Girl Scout Council that you're operating with, you might get one bakery or the other.
• 2:08
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Some, some cookies are only made by one bakery.
• 2:10
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Yeah.
• 2:11
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: The peanut butter tag along long, one of our two favorites mm-hmm.
• 2:14
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Along with the thin mints is made by little brownie bakers and it's just gotten shittier and shittier over the years.
• 2:20
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: However, this year I bought some peanut butter tag alongs from my niece Uhhuh.
• 2:26
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Now you will notice there are fewer of them.
• 2:28
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Okay.
• 2:29
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: But I want you, we're gonna do our first Girl Scout cookie review on the restaurant, guys.
• 2:35
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: All right.
• 2:36
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: You know the tag along is my favorite of the Girl Scout cookies.
• 2:44
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I think a huge improvement.
• 2:46
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: They chicken much less waxy, not waxy.
• 2:48
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: And the peanut butter tastes like real peanut butter.
• 2:51
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Mm-hmm.
• 2:52
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Hmm.
• 2:53
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: It's back.
• 2:54
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: It's the, it's, I would say, I would say as good as they were 15 years ago, the tag along of my youth, you know?
• 2:59
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Um, so So what happened?
• 3:02
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Well, what do you got from me?
• 3:04
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I don't know the answer.
• 3:05
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Oh, where, where to come Prepared to class.
• 3:08
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Just good job.
• 3:09
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: We're advising our guests.
• 3:10
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Actually, you know what?
• 3:11
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: You brought me Tag along.
• 3:12
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: You're good.
• 3:13
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: You complaining about, um.
• 3:15
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: But I did note on the ingredients here.
• 3:17
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Mm-hmm.
• 3:18
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: That the first ingredient, peanut butter, which I really, I don't know what it was before.
• 3:22
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: The first ingredient is peanut.
• 3:23
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Now they have sugar in their peanut butter because you peanut butter can have sugar in it, so it gives you the sub ingredients.
• 3:30
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Oh, I see.
• 3:30
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Peanut butter.
• 3:31
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: But the first ingredient is peanut butter.
• 3:33
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Then there's more sugar.
• 3:34
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Yeah.
• 3:34
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Um, and well, there's sugar in the other parts of it too.
• 3:36
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Not just the peanut butter.
• 3:37
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I mean, it's a cookie.
• 3:38
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I'm not looking for healthy food.
• 3:39
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Mm-hmm.
• 3:39
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: It's way better.
• 3:40
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Way better.
• 3:41
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Way better is better.
• 3:42
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Way better really than Jennifer's looking at us.
• 3:44
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Like, how come I don't have a tag?
• 3:45
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Oh, on, I got hand.
• 3:48
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Um, I was, I was shocked because what I generally do is I bought from my niece.
• 3:53
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: The last thing I need is a bunch of cookies in the house.
• 3:55
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: So I buy like six boxes and I keep one box of Tagalongs for myself and one box of thin mints.
• 3:59
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: But I had this one box of Tagalongs and I was like, I'm not giving away the other one.
• 4:04
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I gotta bring this on to the show because as, as Mark knows, and some of you may know, is, um, you know, when they give you the calories per serving.
• 4:12
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: One box that's a service.
• 4:15
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: So I'm gonna divulge something about you, which you've already really led into Uhhuh.
• 4:20
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: So when there is a sweet treat on the table, that is good.
• 4:25
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: And you are sitting with Francis and sharing it, you have to understand it's a race.
• 4:30
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Yeah.
• 4:30
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Sorry.
• 4:30
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Okay.
• 4:31
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: It's, you're just as fast.
• 4:33
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: If you want your half, you gotta go as fast as you can go.
• 4:35
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: 'cause Francis just has this, I do addictive, I do thing going on that when it's really good, it's, we gotta go.
• 4:42
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: And not even when it's really good, if it's good, good like m and and stuff, that also, uh, does it for me.
• 4:46
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: So I want to go, I haven't had this years.
• 4:48
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Thin mints.
• 4:49
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I have no reason to think whether they're better or worse.
• 4:50
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Never been a thin mint guy.
• 4:52
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: What the hell?
• 4:53
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Chocolate.
• 4:53
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Chocolate and Mint.
• 4:54
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Never, never been a, I've never been a peppermint Patty guy.
• 4:57
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Never enjoyed mint candy except for Win Green.
• 5:02
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I was so happy when Lifesaver came out with the Minto Green,'cause I finally had a mint candy that I could enjoy.
• 5:08
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: You're.
• 5:09
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I'm a big, I see for me, uh, chocolate and mint together is really great.
• 5:12
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: These actually look better than they have in priors.
• 5:14
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Well, we got dark chocolate too, so Jennifer's really eyeballing the same mint.
• 5:18
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: So there's, so there's no chocolate in the tagalongs.
• 5:20
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I didn't read the ingredients here, but, um, it's cocoa, but you know, cocoa and a little bit of fat makes kind of a faux chocolate that kind of works.
• 5:26
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: What do you think?
• 5:27
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I think not a bad cookie again, 10 mint, not my thing, but crunchy.
• 5:33
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Although I have to say, I usually eat my Girl Scout cookie stale.
• 5:36
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: So,'cause they sit in the closet for like three months and I'm like, ah, all right, I'll eat those.
• 5:40
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I, I have to say, I think there's been an improvement mm-hmm.
• 5:42
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: In the Girl Scout cookie world among these two core brands.
• 5:44
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I have some of the other ones, they're nothing special, but, all right, so we gotta do some investigative journalism and we need your help.
• 5:51
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: So if somebody knows the answer as to why the Girl Scout cookies are better.
• 5:55
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Please tell the restaurant guys.
• 5:56
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: would also like to know if you think Mark's crazy for not liking Mint in his dessert.
• 6:01
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Is it a, what's your favorite Girl Scout?
• 6:03
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I, I like mint tea.
• 6:04
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I like, I don't like mint in my desserts.
• 6:06
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I don't like mint ice cream.
• 6:07
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I never Alright, we're, we're, we want your impression of Girl Scout cookies, whether you think they've gotten better or not, and if you're a tag along person or a thin mint person or you have another one.
• 6:15
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: I know this isn't the most sophisticated question we've ever asked on the restaurant guys, but this is a very important part of Americana.
• 6:21
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: We would like you guys to join us.
• 6:22
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Send your email to the guys@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
• 6:25
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: We have a much more serious show coming up, uh, and a much more adult show.
• 6:28
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Much more serious.
• 6:29
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Really?
• 6:30
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Yes.
• 6:30
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: All right.
• 6:30
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Yes, it's, you have to be 21 to be the rest of the show.
• 6:33
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Uh, and we are gonna drink a cocktail and, uh, have some applejack with Lisa Laird in just a minute.
• 6:37
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: So stick with us.
• 6:38
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: You can always find out more about us, like follow and subscribe pod@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
• 6:43
  the-restaurant-guys_1_03-06-2026_124317: Do that.
• 6:44
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: So Lisa Laird Dunn is the ninth generation of America's first distilling family.
• 6:49
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: The folks behind the Laird and company makers of the company's original Native Spirit apple Jack.
• 6:54
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: Long before bourbon and Rye dominated the conversation, the Laird family was turning New Jersey apples into brandy, going all the way back to the 17 hundreds.
• 7:02
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: Her ancestors fought in the War of Independence and even sold George Washington Applejack right here in New Brunswick during the war.
• 7:09
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: Uh, they received license number one after prohibition.
• 7:13
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: That's a very cool thing.
• 7:14
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: We've been being fans of Apple, Jack and Lisa and her family since before the cocktail renaissance, and we are thrilled to have her on the show today.
• 7:21
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: Cheers, Lisa.
• 7:22
  lisa_1_03-06-2026_130545: Cheers.
• 7:23
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: You're here.
• 7:24
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: Welcome to the restaurant, guys.
• 7:25
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: You're here.
• 7:25
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: Well, so we'll tell you what we're drinking first.
• 7:27
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: Lisa, are you drinking with us or are we drinking alone?
• 7:29
  lisa_1_03-06-2026_130545: Oh,
• 7:29
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: with us.
• 7:30
  lisa_1_03-06-2026_130545: absolutely not.
• 7:30
  lisa_1_03-06-2026_130545: I've been drinking waiting for you.
• 7:32
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: for you.
• 7:33
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: You gotta head start.
• 7:34
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: Her froth.
• 7:35
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: Her froth has def froth
• 7:36
  lisa_1_03-06-2026_130545: There's no froth anymore.
• 7:39
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: so I better drink quicker.
• 7:40
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: So Jack Rose is, um, applejack lime juice, grenadine, uh, and it is kind of the canary in the coal mine of applejack cocktails.
• 7:48
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: And it is one of the, uh, cocktails that led the Renaissance of the American cocktail.
• 7:52
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: And it was also the canary in the coal mine of cocktails, frankly.
• 7:56
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: It was.
• 7:57
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: Mm-hmm.
• 7:57
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: It was a drink be when cocktails were great.
• 8:00
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: That was great.
• 8:02
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: it was a drink when cocktails were terrible.
• 8:05
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: That was terrible.
• 8:06
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: It's, it's a cocktail that tells you if you're in a good place or not.
• 8:11
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: Right.
• 8:11
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: Are you using fresh lime juice?
• 8:13
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: Is it well shaken?
• 8:14
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: are you using good grenadine?
• 8:15
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: Right.
• 8:17
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: It's, it just speaks to the ingredients.
• 8:19
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: You know, you can, I'm sorry, Lisa, but you could use Apple jack and still make a shitty drink.
• 8:23
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: Mm.
• 8:23
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: And still make a shitty Jack Rose.
• 8:25
  lisa_1_03-06-2026_130545: Absolutely.
• 8:26
  lisa_1_03-06-2026_130545: If you don't have fresh ingredients, it's horrible.
• 8:29
  lisa_1_03-06-2026_130545: And I have,
• 8:30
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: us,
• 8:30
  lisa_1_03-06-2026_130545: I've had many bad jack roses in my day.
• 8:34
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: my day, but tell us about the Jack Rose and, and its relationship to Applejack and then we'll go into the family's recent history and, and, and ancient history.
• 8:41
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: 'cause it's, it's an American story on the 250th anniversary
• 8:45
  lisa_1_03-06-2026_130545: Mm-hmm.
• 8:45
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: goes back to the founding and it's ties New Brunswick together and us together and jersey together.
• 8:50
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: And it's a, it's a really important story to us.
• 8:52
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: So tell, tell us about, just start telling us about the Jack Rose though while we drink.
• 8:55
  lisa_1_03-06-2026_130545: Well, the first time the Jack Rose showed up in print was about 1905, and it's had
• 9:01
  the-restaurant-guys_2_03-06-2026_130545: had
• 9:02
  lisa_1_03-06-2026_130545: some variations with the recipes through the year.
• 9:05
  lisa_1_03-06-2026_130545: Um, and there's a lot of stories on how the drink achieved its name.
• 9:11
  lisa_1_03-06-2026_130545: The Jack Rose.
• 9:12
  lisa_1_03-06-2026_130545: You know, there's the story that, uh, it, from the Jack of Mountain Rose because of the color.
• 9:18
  Mark: That, uh, it, from the Jack of Mount Rose because of the color, there was bartender in Newark who supposedly created the drink that he was called Jack Rose.
• 9:30
  Mark: My favorite story is the gangster from New York Baldy Jack Rose.
• 9:35
  Mark: And that was his actual cocktail that he loved to drink, and it was named after him.
• 9:40
  Mark: And there was a time when bartenders actually changed the name to the Royal Smile in order not to call it the Jack Rose because it was associated with a gangster.
• 9:53
  Francis: Okay.
• 9:53
  Francis: Like being associated with a gangster, didn't sell more drinks.
• 9:55
  Francis: What?
• 9:56
  Francis: Why would they do
• 9:56
  Mark: that?
• 9:56
  Mark: I, I gotta be honest.
• 9:57
  Mark: I think it's a great story.
• 9:59
  Mark: I, I gotta be honest, I always thought it was'cause it was made with applejack and it was rose colored.
• 10:05
  Mark: Well, actually it, there's, we have, we don't know a hundred percent how the name came about, but it does make sense because the main ingredient is the apple jack, and it does have that rose color, but it is one of the most famous Apple Jack Laird's applejack cocktails in history.
• 10:24
  Mark: so Lisa, you know why Francis let you talk for so long is'cause he wanted to drink.
• 10:28
  Mark: he was I know, I is he was, he was sipping.
• 10:30
  Mark: I got a few more seconds.
• 10:31
  Mark: I can talk.
• 10:32
  Mark: He's drinking.
• 10:33
  Francis: that's why Mark has, has instituted the cocktail portion of the show.
• 10:35
  Francis: I, you know, I think that we go back to, you know, David wdr is out here fighting, debunking all the myths of, of, uh, things that have happened in the past.
• 10:43
  Francis: And you wanna say, David, just stop it.
• 10:44
  Francis: It doesn't matter if they're true or not.
• 10:46
  Francis: They're fun stories.
• 10:47
  Francis: It's booze.
• 10:47
  Francis: No, I'm kidding.
• 10:48
  Francis: It doesn't matter.
• 10:48
  Francis: But it doesn't matter really for the, the lore of the legend of the drink.
• 10:53
  Francis: It's been around for over a hundred years.
• 10:55
  Francis: A cocktail's been around for 150 years.
• 10:58
  Francis: I remember when we started bartending in 1986, it was in the Mr.
• 11:02
  Francis: Boston Manual.
• 11:03
  Francis: But what had happened to this cocktail was, well, you guys did change the recipe of applejack, right?
• 11:08
  Francis: So it wasn't exactly the same cocktails, 1905, and we have access to that old recipe again, which is very exciting news.
• 11:15
  Francis: Um, but more importantly, grenadine.
• 11:19
  Francis: Crap.
• 11:19
  Francis: It was just, so, there is a lot of debate.
• 11:22
  Francis: A lot of people who were, uh, very much into the cocktail revolution say, grenadine is all about pomegranate and pomegranate flavoring.
• 11:28
  Francis: The reality is Grenadine was a red sweet syrup that we don't exactly know what was in, everybody had different versions of it, but we know that it wasn't the
• 11:38
  Mark: corn syrup, We know it had no high fructose corn syrup in it, wasn't colored corn
• 11:42
  Francis: so it was
• 11:43
  Mark: Absolutely not.
• 11:44
  Francis: corn syrup and red dime when we started.
• 11:45
  Francis: So I tried to make a Jack Rose behind the frog and the peach bar in 1987, and I thought, that's disgusting.
• 11:52
  Francis: Those old people don't know what they were doing.
• 11:53
  Francis: We
• 11:53
  Mark: made it was a horrendous.
• 11:55
  Mark: Old people would order it and you'd make it with roses, uh, lime juice, and you'd make it with
• 12:00
  Francis: or sour mix.
• 12:00
  Mark: And I didn't under, I didn't understand that.
• 12:04
  Mark: What, Like, how did this ever become a popular drink?
• 12:06
  Mark: It's gross.
• 12:07
  Francis: And then we met Dale DeGraff and he set us straight
• 12:09
  Mark: then we figured out how, how, how and why it became a great drink.
• 12:13
  Francis: I saw some.
• 12:15
  Francis: Because I'm a geek about old cocktail books and, and, and the like.
• 12:18
  Francis: I remember seeing when we first, our first serious cocktail menu, which was a year after we opened in 1993, had a Jack Rose on the menu.
• 12:26
  Francis: It was a, again, it was a foundational drink.
• 12:28
  Francis: And one of the things that we thought was so cool about it was we had made it so shitty, we'd been bartenders for six and seven years, we'd owned our own restaurant and we were like, oh, that's what Jack Rose is supposed to be.
• 12:39
  Francis: I remember when we researched these old things, there were kind of, from the Mad Men era, there were advertisements of like, uh, an illustration of Sophisticated Man with a Jack Rose.
• 12:49
  Francis: And that was a a that was crazy in the heights.
• 12:52
  Francis: It was part of the lexicon and then all but forgotten.
• 12:54
  Francis: How did that happen?
• 12:56
  Mark: How to get forgotten
• 12:57
  Francis: Yeah.
• 12:58
  Mark: the ingredients, um, because, uh, bartending was not a career any longer and they started using the Roses grenadine, and also using the sweet and sour from the gun, and it killed the cocktail.
• 13:17
  Mark: I mean, we weren't produc, well, we did have our straight bottled and v apple jack, and we had our, our seven and a half year old, 80.
• 13:25
  Mark: So we did have our straight apple brandy, but the most widely distributed product was our blended apple jack.
• 13:33
  Mark: Now you can still make.
• 13:35
  Mark: A decent Jack Rose as long as you have fresh juice and fresh
• 13:39
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 13:40
  Mark: But it was the use of imitation flavored ingredients that just killed that cocktail
• 13:48
  Francis: Well, I think it went down with the, with all of the other
• 13:51
  Mark: yeah, with the yeah, exactly.
• 13:52
  Francis: time,
• 13:52
  Mark: with all of them.
• 13:53
  Mark: Absolutely.
• 13:54
  Francis: let's talk about the dark times and between the kind of Mad Men era when things were cool and then everybody turned away from their father's booze and anything brown was verboten and vodka took rise and Fern bars were created and, things went dark, didn't you?
• 14:08
  Francis: Do you guys turn off their still for a while?
• 14:10
  Francis: I mean, did you guys,
• 14:12
  Mark: We did, we stopped distilling for 10 years, so we had so much inventory.
• 14:18
  Mark: actually by 1999 I had up to 25-year-old apple brandy.
• 14:24
  Mark: wow.
• 14:24
  Mark: So what did you do with it?
• 14:25
  Mark: Tell us what you did Um, I created our 12-year-old, Great.
• 14:29
  Mark: um, played around with different age statements found.
• 14:33
  Mark: That was pretty much the key, you know, it was the sweet spot.
• 14:38
  Mark: 'cause the longer you age apple brandy, you're going to lose the apple
• 14:43
  Francis: Uh.
• 14:44
  Mark: So it's very important to retain as much of that apple characteristics in the final spirit.
• 14:50
  Mark: Um, and once you got past that, number one, you're losing more to angel share, uh, and then you're losing those apple characteristics.
• 14:57
  Francis: angel share for listeners who may not be spirits geeks is the amount of, uh, volume you lose every year that evaporates through the wood because wood is, kind of slightly porous and you will lose a certain amount of volume through them while the brandy ages and is great.
• 15:11
  Francis: I think it's a really salient and interesting point.
• 15:15
  Francis: Um, you see that there was a lot of overproduction of whiskey, in Scotland, in Ireland, in Kentucky, in Tennessee, uh, in upstate New York, you read the news, a lot of these places have turned off their
• 15:29
  Mark: just simply not distilling anymore like you did for 10 years.
• 15:32
  Mark: Just, just so that you know, what, I have enough product
• 15:34
  Francis: and the, and the lesson here is that when you're making a product that.
• 15:37
  Francis: If the demand goes down or has been over production, this stuff will stay for years and years and years.
• 15:44
  Francis: Unlike wine, which you've got about 18 months to two years to maybe three years to, to use that product.
• 15:50
  Mark: depending on the wine, of
• 15:51
  Francis: Yeah.
• 15:51
  Francis: But it's very interesting, to think about it, distillery that continues to operate, or a liquor company that continues to operate because you're, you're planning for two years out and three years out.
• 16:00
  Francis: So you say, okay, well I'm gonna stop the still for a while.
• 16:04
  Francis: That doesn't mean I'm outta business.
• 16:06
  Francis: That doesn't mean I'm not selling whiskey.
• 16:08
  Mark: Did you think it would come back, Lisa?
• 16:09
  Mark: as we're at the dawn of this new age of where there's tons of whiskey and barrel and I think there's a lot of people shutting down their stills forever.
• 16:16
  Mark: some of them will come back, some of them won't.
• 16:18
  Mark: Uh, what were you thinking way back when, when you turned your stilts off?
• 16:22
  Mark: Well, when I came into the industry, I came in during the dark years, uh, you know, when I said our family made Apple jack, they thought we made the cereal.
• 16:31
  Mark: So, you know, it really wasn't a much of a category.
• 16:35
  Mark: Um, and it's from the history, it's a very cyclical industry and it's always up and down.
• 16:43
  Mark: Things are gonna go outta style, they're gonna come back.
• 16:46
  Mark: Um, obviously I was hoping that would happen.
• 16:50
  Mark: And luckily by the end of the 19 hundreds into 2000, we started to see the resurgence, uh, with the classic cocktails.
• 16:58
  Francis: So we feel,
• 16:59
  Mark: back in these classic cocktail recipe books, you're gonna find apple
• 17:03
  Francis: so, we feel
• 17:03
  Mark: and is, is Applejack still riding that, that wave or are you, are you feeling the same thing that everybody else is feeling with the, that downturn?
• 17:11
  Mark: Yeah, we, um, we had some issues post pro, uh, not post prohibition obviously, but um, post pandemic.
• 17:19
  Mark: Um, we have a lot in younger bartenders that have come into the industry, so it's almost like reeducating'cause we're a small category and it's, it's a lot of education and that's what I've been doing.
• 17:33
  Francis: We feel privileged to have been part of the Renaissance.
• 17:36
  Francis: so we started selling Applejack in 93.
• 17:38
  Francis: You know, when there were a few geeks selling applejack and your stills weren't back on yet.
• 17:42
  Francis: And, uh, we were raving about it.
• 17:44
  Francis: And then it seems to, to us from our perspective that, um, Dale DeGraff and Audrey Saunders and David Wdr and, and Sasha Petrowski and all those people, applejack was the rage.
• 17:58
  Francis: And I remember a brief period of time where I guess demand had come back so quickly that you guys couldn't meet at all.
• 18:04
  Francis: And.
• 18:06
  Francis: We were smuggling bottles of the statute limitations I think is over.
• 18:09
  Francis: But Mark and I, when we would go visit cocktail bars in New York, we would bring a bottle of Applejack.
• 18:14
  Francis: 'cause you were kind enough to be loyal to New Jersey so we could always get it.
• 18:17
  Francis: And I literally, we'd walk in with a bottle of Applejack in our pocket to Pegu Club and you know, they'd buy me three drinks'cause, because I turned up with the apple jack.
• 18:27
  Francis: What was it like to go from, nobody gives a shit and your, and your still's turned off to people are fighting for your spirits.
• 18:33
  Francis: It seems like that was a very quick turnaround.
• 18:35
  Francis: Was it?
• 18:36
  Mark: It was a very quick turnaround.
• 18:38
  Mark: you know, a lot of our obstacle was distributors that had no interest in taking the brand on.
• 18:45
  Mark: You know, at that point in time you're talking about the straight spirits, the bottle and bond, they carried the blended apple jack.
• 18:52
  Mark: But when I tried to get them to carry the bottle of bond, they had no interest.
• 18:56
  Mark: 'cause I'm a small producer.
• 18:58
  Mark: the blended applejack was a very inexpensive product and it's still pretty inexpensive.
• 19:02
  Mark: You know, was a, was something you could pick up for$15 in a liquor store, you know, back then.
• 19:08
  Mark: For sure.
• 19:09
  Mark: And so one of the reasons I think a lot of people liked to use it in cocktails, right?
• 19:12
  Mark: It was, it was something that really showed a lot of flavor, but you didn't have to put a lot of dollars into the cocktail.
• 19:19
  Mark: Exactly.
• 19:19
  Mark: And we, dr.
• 19:20
  Mark: We try to keep our product reasonably priced.
• 19:25
  Mark: It is much more expensive to produce brandy than it is to produce a whiskey.
• 19:30
  Mark: The cost of materials alone, it's over$25 a proof gallon for me just to make the
• 19:35
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 19:36
  Mark: Um, but you know, during that time period it was exciting for me, um, to have that awareness and have people appreciate our product again.
• 19:47
  Mark: Um, but yeah, and I saw the writing on the wall that we had an issue with inventory and I kept telling my father, we need to make more brandy.
• 19:59
  Mark: We need to make more brandy.
• 20:01
  Mark: He's like, nah, we're fine.
• 20:02
  Mark: 'cause he doesn't like to carry a lot of Sure.
• 20:04
  Mark: Who does?
• 20:05
  Mark: especially since we had to shut down for 10 years.
• 20:08
  Mark: And, uh, one day he comes to me, he goes, we have to take bottled and bond off the label.
• 20:13
  Mark: And I'm like, what are you talking about?
• 20:15
  Mark: Well, I'm not a brandy.
• 20:17
  Mark: I'm like.
• 20:18
  Francis: told you.
• 20:19
  Mark: I told you so, um, for four years we had to take bottled and bond off the label because we couldn't ensure it was all 40-year-old.
• 20:31
  Francis: did you, how did you, when did you realize that the storm was coming?
• 20:34
  Francis: When did your, your, your radar go off that something had changed in the world of applejack and cocktails?
• 20:42
  Mark: It was probably the mid two thousands, you know, our 225th was, 2005 and I really started going out into the marketplace.
• 20:54
  Mark: I had, actually developed a historical 18th century menu with laird's cocktails to pear with the dishes, and really seeing more and more interest in the product.
• 21:09
  Mark: And that's what I really started to see.
• 21:12
  Mark: The door opening or, you know, the wind change, I guess the, the way the industry was changing and moving towards brown spirits again, but understanding and appreciating applejack.
• 21:26
  Mark: It's funny, we opened Cat Lombardi in 2005 and one of the things that Francis and I said,'cause you know, obviously we were doing these great cocktails behind the stage left bar from 93 on.
• 21:36
  Mark: But when we opened Ka Lombardi, we said, we need more space for these ingredients.
• 21:41
  Mark: This this cocktail movement has, got ahead of steam now.
• 21:45
  Mark: It's coming and, places like Pegu and, milk and Honey and those places were, were just opening right around that time.
• 21:51
  Mark: And so we were able to build to be able to support a cocktail program that was a little more robust.
• 21:58
  Mark: And New York City was huge for us.
• 22:01
  Mark: You know, it was 2006 when I first met Audrey Saunders and she reached out and she's like, how come I can't get this bottled in bond?
• 22:12
  Mark: I'm like, right across the river.
• 22:14
  Mark: And I'm like, my distributor will not take it on.
• 22:18
  Mark: So made a couple phone calls.
• 22:20
  Mark: we, we backdoored it and I would call her and say they bought five cases, she'd buy them all.
• 22:26
  Mark: And then she was distributing it amongst all the cocktail bars.
• 22:30
  Mark: And that's how it built.
• 22:32
  Francis: Well, you know,
• 22:32
  Mark: a lot of credit.
• 22:33
  Francis: and the beginning of the cocktail renaissance was when we made historical cocktails.
• 22:37
  Francis: That was the first part before, you know, everyone's making their own bespoke cocktails everywhere.
• 22:41
  Francis: But the beginning of the Renaissance was, we relearned how to make the classics.
• 22:45
  Francis: And you couldn't do that without Apple Chip being a part of the American story.
• 22:49
  Francis: and that's why Applejack absolutely needed to be, but something that helped it along.
• 22:53
  Francis: I think those distributors did you a great favor because There's nothing that people want more than the thing they can't get.
• 23:00
  Francis: And that, and that was the thing,
• 23:02
  Mark: you know, I do think that helped you.
• 23:04
  Mark: gonna tell I'm my last, I'm on my last sip of this Jack Rose, and I am lamenting That is my last sip.
• 23:10
  Mark: I, I have always since, since the, the Renaissance loved.
• 23:16
  Mark: This cocktail absolutely adored this cocktail.
• 23:19
  Mark: It was, it's, it's often been my go-to cocktail for, you know, I want something a little softer, a little sweeter.
• 23:25
  Mark: I just wanna, you know, sip and enjoy something that's not gonna, you know, get me wrecked.
• 23:31
  Mark: and, I, I adore it and I, so here's what I'm gonna do to our listeners.
• 23:36
  Mark: If you come into the bar and say, mark loves Jack Rose, I'm gonna buy you your first one.
• 23:43
  Mark: There you go.
• 23:43
  Mark: that's great.
• 23:43
  Mark: Commit to the bar.
• 23:44
  Mark: and I'll, be up there tomorrow.
• 23:45
  Francis: yeah.
• 23:49
  Mark: so for the for the week after we release this show.
• 23:52
  Mark: mark, Say, mark loves Jack Rose, and I will buy you a
• 23:55
  Francis: Rose.
• 23:55
  Francis: The interesting thing about Jack Roses is that Grenadine is really our, our Grenadine, uh, we make in house and it's very, it's very expensive.
• 24:03
  Francis: We looked at bottling our Grenadine once we realized that it costs more than most of the booze on the back of our shelf.
• 24:08
  Mark: the Grenadine itself is more expensive to make than, than most of the bottles that we
• 24:12
  Francis: But, but if you go to different places, they'll either make their own Grenadine good or they'll buy a quality Grenadine.
• 24:16
  Francis: And, uh, that, that is another way that Mark and I kind of judge the quality of a cocktail bar.
• 24:22
  Francis: Honestly, I think that, you know, make me a plain daiquiri.
• 24:25
  Francis: Make me something with Grenadine in it.
• 24:27
  Francis: What Grenadine did These are like, it's like when the French chef interviews a line cook and he says, you know, make me an omelet, roast me a chicken.
• 24:34
  Francis: You know that it shows, are you real about this or are you not real about this?
• 24:38
  Francis: But let's talk about the different, jacks that are available.
• 24:41
  Francis: So you had Jack bonded was Ave you were still making Jack bonded through the dark ages or
• 24:45
  Mark: Absolutely.
• 24:46
  Mark: It was pretty much on the bottom shelf in a lot of the Jersey stores.
• 24:50
  Francis: What were people doing with the apple jack bonded in the dark ages when it was being drunk?
• 24:56
  Francis: Was it just alies drinking it on the corner?
• 24:58
  Francis: Was it very strong Jack roses?
• 25:00
  Francis: What?
• 25:00
  Francis: Where was it going?
• 25:01
  Francis: How was it being used?
• 25:02
  Mark: It was a lot of old timers drinking a shot and a beer, or it was, uh, very popular as, um, the apple jack and ginger,
• 25:10
  Francis: Really?
• 25:10
  Mark: yeah.
• 25:11
  Mark: ginger.
• 25:11
  Mark: ale.
• 25:11
  Mark: Mm-hmm.
• 25:12
  Mark: I'll have to tell you, when I started in the, in the company, we would get more phone calls and still it was 1972 that we changed to the blended apple jack, and that was all for survival.
• 25:26
  Francis: Yeah.
• 25:27
  Mark: And, um, old timers called, what did you do with my apple jack?
• 25:31
  Mark: I don't like it, it doesn't taste the
• 25:33
  Francis: Why
• 25:34
  Mark: And I'm like, we still have it.
• 25:36
  Francis: What, so what?
• 25:36
  Francis: What?
• 25:37
  Francis: So when you
• 25:37
  Mark: why did you add that product?
• 25:38
  Francis: why did that product, when you say for survival talk, you just had to stretch your existing stocks?
• 25:42
  Mark: No.
• 25:43
  Mark: The reason was because the American consumer, their tastes were moving from straight brown spirits.
• 25:48
  Mark: It's when you start rye basically disappeared.
• 25:51
  Mark: It became blended whiskey.
• 25:53
  Mark: The scotches, the Canadians, every whiskey was now being lightened with neutral grain.
• 25:59
  Mark: And our federal standard of identity as apple brandy has to be a hundred percent apples.
• 26:04
  Mark: So we actually had a new federal standard of identity created a blended applejack
• 26:12
  Francis: That didn't have to be all apples.
• 26:14
  Mark: yes, so it's minimum 20% apple brandy, but we have a 35%.
• 26:21
  Francis: Okay.
• 26:21
  Francis: So I wanna talk about a product that you have introduced or reintroduced.
• 26:25
  Francis: when we started making Jack roses and other Apple drinks again, like we made a, a Apple Jack Manhattan that we used the bonded for certainly.
• 26:33
  Francis: But we found that we liked the apple jack, the blended product made a nice Jack Rose, I'll be honest with you.
• 26:38
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 26:38
  Francis: Um, but we would choose between the bonded and the, and the, the regular product you have on the market.
• 26:45
  Mark: and frankly, it was only a couple bucks more.
• 26:47
  Mark: Yeah.
• 26:47
  Mark: Shockingly you were able to keep that price super reasonable.
• 26:51
  Mark: I'm sure you're making less money on the bonded than you are on the, on the regular applejack, but thank you.
• 26:56
  Francis: but
• 26:56
  Mark: My pleasure.
• 26:57
  Francis: but they, but the thing is they make, they make different drinks.
• 27:00
  Francis: I mean, they're, they're both good drinks.
• 27:01
  Francis: But then you came out with the apple jack, 86, a hundred percent apple brandy.
• 27:06
  Francis: And this was only a couple of years ago.
• 27:08
  Francis: Tell me about this product.
• 27:10
  Mark: Well now I had Brandy.
• 27:12
  Mark: I actually had inventory where we could introduce new items.
• 27:16
  Mark: 'cause Larry finally listened to me and started building up our inventory.
• 27:21
  Mark: Um.
• 27:23
  Mark: And I felt that there was really a, a lag between our blended apple jack and our bottled and bond.
• 27:31
  Mark: 'cause you had that straight spirit a hundred proof and the straight apple jack is like a bridge between the two.
• 27:39
  Mark: You're having a straight brandy, but it's not such a high proof.
• 27:45
  Mark: 'cause when you're introducing consumers to it, hunter proof is, it's it's too high proof.
• 27:51
  Mark: The A BV is too high.
• 27:53
  Mark: So I wanted that
• 27:54
  Francis: Lisa, for some people.
• 27:56
  Mark: people.
• 27:56
  Mark: I'm, I'm talking about introducing new consumers to apple
• 28:00
  Francis: gotcha
• 28:02
  Mark: and it has a beautiful, delightful, fresher apple flavor.
• 28:06
  Mark: Um, and we just kind of brought back what Laird's apple jack, historically has always been a hundred percent apple brandy.
• 28:14
  Mark: And 86 proof was more evident of what our proof was post prohibit.
• 28:20
  Francis: so the historic apple jack cocktails would've been made with this product?
• 28:25
  Mark: More so.
• 28:25
  Mark: Yes.
• 28:26
  Mark: Mm-hmm.
• 28:26
  Mark: Absolutely.
• 28:27
  Mark: It could have been higher proof, like the bottled MB bond, but I think the Applejack 86 is much more accessible.
• 28:34
  Francis: I like it.
• 28:35
  Francis: I like all three.
• 28:36
  Francis: There are subtle nuances and differences among them, but what we are gonna do is the.
• 28:41
  Francis: We're gonna take a break.
• 28:42
  Francis: We're gonna come back on the other side.
• 28:44
  Francis: I made that first round of Jack Roses with the apple jack.
• 28:48
  Francis: 86.
• 28:50
  Francis: I have another, I have the ingredients right behind me to make another round with the bonded and, uh, mark and I are gonna have an, a second cocktail, so it's a two cocktail show.
• 30:26
  Francis: I hope we get through the whole thing.
• 30:27
  Francis: I'm,
• 30:28
  Mark: I'm ready.
• 30:28
  Francis: Alright.
• 30:28
  Francis: We'll be back in just a moment.
• 30:29
  Mark: I'm, I'm a, I'm a greater than two cocktail guy, so this is gonna work out for me.
• 30:34
  Francis: is, it is.
• 30:34
  Francis: We're recording this in the middle of the afternoon, but I'm looking forward
• 30:37
  Mark: make mine with Apple Jack 86.
• 30:39
  Francis: Alright, well, we'll be back in just a moment.
• 30:41
  Francis: More with Lisa Lair.
• 30:41
  Francis: Don't go away.
• 30:42
  Francis: We're gonna find out what Apple, apple jack is, as opposed to apple.
• 30:46
  Francis: Brandy on the other side.
• 30:48
  Francis: Stick with us,
• 30:49
  Mark: but more importantly, I'm gonna have a new cocktail.
• 30:51
  Francis: Yeah, you can find out more about us@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
• 30:55
  Francis: Okay, everybody, welcome back.
• 30:56
  Francis: I have made us another round of cocktails.
• 30:58
  Mark: Hooray.
• 30:59
  Francis: You do what you do best.
• 31:00
  Francis: You know, if, if all you have is a hammer, the whole world starts to look like a nail, right?
• 31:03
  Francis: So, um, I'm gonna start off, before we go back with Lisa, I want, I want your impression of the difference in the Jack Roses little frothier
• 31:12
  Mark: a little harder on
• 31:13
  Francis: one.
• 31:13
  Francis: No, no.
• 31:13
  Francis: It's, I, I find that the bond, it gives you a little more of a froth.
• 31:17
  Francis: It gives you a much better froth.
• 31:18
  Francis: Let's try it.
• 31:19
  Mark: right.
• 31:19
  Mark: I, I feel like when you work a little harder, I get a little more
• 31:22
  Francis: Definitely a much more elbows out.
• 31:25
  Francis: Uh, Jack Rose
• 31:26
  Mark: Delicious.
• 31:27
  Mark: I'm not sure.
• 31:27
  Mark: I don't like the first one better.
• 31:30
  Francis: I'm not sure.
• 31:30
  Francis: I don't either, but this is definitely a little more, uh, elbows out manly.
• 31:34
  Mark: Hold on.
• 31:34
  Mark: There's only one way to be
• 31:35
  Francis: sure.
• 31:35
  Francis: You know, I think I might have gotten a little melt water in
• 31:37
  Mark: Wait, wait just a you still waiting?
• 31:39
  Francis: I'm waiting.
• 31:41
  Mark: It is absolutely delicious.
• 31:42
  Mark: But I like the first one better.
• 31:44
  Mark: Like the 86.
• 31:45
  Francis: I i I think the 86 is the best one for, for a Jack
• 31:47
  Mark: There you go.
• 31:48
  Mark: You've heard it here first.
• 31:49
  Francis: Um, do you have an opinion on which product should be used for a Jack, rose, Lisa?
• 31:53
  Mark: I totally agree with you guys.
• 31:54
  Mark: The Apple Jack 86, um, makes a much nicer, um, more balanced, More balanced.
• 32:02
  Mark: jack
• 32:03
  Francis: Yeah.
• 32:04
  Francis: I mean, doesn't mean I'm not gonna drink this one, I'll be honest with you.
• 32:07
  Mark: yeah.
• 32:07
  Mark: I, I, I would drink it with the bottle of Bon absolutely.
• 32:10
  Francis: I, I think it was one or two once quoted somebody who said, he said, you know, you know, what is the best cocktail?
• 32:15
  Francis: The one that is in front of you?
• 32:17
  Francis: So that's, that's, uh, the
• 32:18
  Mark: not, I'm gonna disagree with him.
• 32:19
  Mark: Not always.
• 32:20
  Mark: sometimes that, sometimes the cocktail in front of me sucks.
• 32:23
  Francis: is a walk away.
• 32:24
  Francis: let's,
• 32:25
  Mark: to admit, there's times that I've had Jack Roses made for me, and I'm like, you can make me a Jack Rose.
• 32:31
  Mark: And then I regret,
• 32:32
  Francis: And then you think, oh no, you actually can't
• 32:34
  Mark: You cannot not drink and I'm like, what am I drinking?
• 32:37
  Mark: you're Lisa Laird.
• 32:39
  Mark: It is a smack in the face to not drink the Jack Rose.
• 32:42
  Mark: that they've just made for you.
• 32:44
  Mark: and they know who I am, so I have to drink it.
• 32:49
  Mark: It's horrible.
• 32:50
  Francis: I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say we all have our crosses to bear Lisa, my dad.
• 32:55
  Francis: dad used to say it beats digging ditches.
• 32:57
  Francis: You know what I mean?
• 32:58
  Francis: Like, oh, I drank a bad Jack Rose today.
• 33:01
  Francis: Oh.
• 33:01
  Francis: Big sympathy for there.
• 33:02
  Mark: All right.
• 33:02
  Mark: Here's something I guess, yeah.
• 33:03
  Mark: You can't feel too sorry for That I'm gonna enjoy talking about for just a moment.
• 33:08
  Mark: So here in front of us, we have the 10th generation Laird's, apple brandy.
• 33:14
  Mark: Tell us about the 10th generation.
• 33:16
  Mark: 'cause it's, it's, we're continuing on as we go.
• 33:18
  Mark: I love that your family legacy is continuing.
• 33:21
  Mark: You're dragging your children kicking and screaming into the business.
• 33:25
  Mark: Uh, tell us about, tell us about 10 generations of Laird's, uh, apple brandy.
• 33:31
  Mark: Yeah.
• 33:32
  Mark: I am so blessed that both of my children have decided to, uh, come into the family business.
• 33:39
  Mark: So we're now into our 10th generation, and to honor that, we created our five year bottle and bond that we call our 10th generation apple brandy.
• 33:51
  Mark: Well, Francis is honoring you right now by opening this bottle so we can drink it again on the show.
• 33:56
  Francis: Yeah.
• 33:56
  Francis: I'm not working the floor tonight.
• 33:57
  Francis: I'm going to a show, so I'm just having more drinks.
• 34:00
  Mark: he's just drinking over there, but I tell you the difference between the four year bottle of bond and the five year.
• 34:09
  Mark: Amazing.
• 34:09
  Mark: It feels like it's like a year.
• 34:12
  Mark: well, it,
• 34:13
  Francis: That's great.
• 34:14
  Mark: yes, very good.
• 34:16
  Francis: That's great.
• 34:17
  Mark: can, you can you can add and subtract mark.
• 34:20
  Mark: I usually just subtract, just so you know.
• 34:22
  Mark: but it really takes off that bite.
• 34:25
  Mark: You know, the, the bartending community loves the four year bottle and bond, especially for split based cocktails'cause it really stands up against any other spirit.
• 34:36
  Mark: But the five year, you can drink that straight.
• 34:39
  Mark: Now, I think you should try a third Jack Rose
• 34:42
  Francis: Oh,
• 34:43
  Mark: 10th I think it's, I think, uh, you're gonna need to wait a couple minutes till I finish the second one.
• 34:48
  Mark: Alright.
• 34:48
  Mark: But I think there will be a third am gonna have you guys a little tipsy by the end of
• 34:52
  Francis: Before we
• 34:53
  Mark: all right.
• 34:53
  Mark: I'm a big man.
• 34:54
  Mark: I can drink lots of jack roses
• 34:56
  Francis: we end.
• 34:57
  Francis: We're gonna go and do that.
• 34:58
  Francis: So, but I wanna talk to people about Jacks
• 35:00
  Mark: roses.
• 35:01
  Mark: Jack's rose, Jack, Jack roses.
• 35:04
  Francis: Oh, you're not getting another one.
• 35:07
  Francis: You're cut off.
• 35:08
  Francis: Um, so Lisa, I wanna talk about I'm, I'm as, as geeky as can be and delving into your company.
• 35:14
  Mark: he's telling you the truth.
• 35:15
  Mark: He, is as geeky as can be,
• 35:17
  Francis: but I just wanna point out, you know, one of the things we celebrate in our business, um, and we celebrate on this show, our family.
• 35:26
  Francis: Owned companies and that your family's going in.
• 35:29
  Francis: We've had Kathy Corson on with her daughter Grace, talking about moving on to the next generation.
• 35:33
  Francis: We've had Augustina Hobbes on talking about Paul Hobbes.
• 35:36
  Francis: We've had, George Henry's nephew on Michael talking about taking over Henry property.
• 35:43
  Francis: Um, this is uncommon and it's more uncommon in the spirit's world because there's something about land that can go from, uh, stay within families, but
• 35:54
  Mark: I think you, I mean, and you lost it at prohibition, right?
• 35:57
  Mark: So many families just left the business forever, and even if their distillery got picked up by the next
• 36:04
  Francis: Yeah, that's,
• 36:04
  Mark: it's not the same family,
• 36:05
  Francis: right?
• 36:06
  Francis: So even if you have, brown foreman, that family, made the first, uh, bottled bourbon and there is a brown now chairman of the board, but it is a, it has a board of directors and they were out for a while and they're back in.
• 36:19
  Francis: This is owned by you, right?
• 36:21
  Francis: This is owned by the Laird family passed from one generation to the next and now we passed to the next.
• 36:27
  Francis: And I think it's absolutely incredible and the spirits world is even more prone than the wine world to consolidation.
• 36:35
  Francis: People start spirits brands so that they can sell them 10 years down the road.
• 36:40
  Francis: Um, and you are not doing that and that's very different in your way.
• 36:44
  Francis: So it's its own category.
• 36:45
  Francis: You're the only apple jack that matters and you're a family thing.
• 36:49
  Francis: What's that like being in a spirit's world that is, there are very few companies like
• 36:53
  Mark: Are you gonna crush our souls and go public?
• 36:55
  Francis: Don't you dare.
• 36:56
  Mark: No, no, We will not.
• 36:59
  Francis: you could.
• 36:59
  Francis: take on a couple of restaurant partners that you could do that.
• 37:02
  Francis: Just, I know a couple of guys, but other than that,
• 37:04
  Mark: yeah.
• 37:04
  Mark: I'm, I tell you, I'm getting emails every week, people trying to purchase us, um, but we're not for sale.
• 37:12
  Mark: Um, especially now that my children are on board.
• 37:15
  Mark: Yeah, that's, that's, that was the key they came on
• 37:19
  Francis: What's that like being in that industry where you're just, it's the Laird family and all these other big companies.
• 37:27
  Francis: Some of them very good companies, some of them very evil companies, but what's it like being out there?
• 37:31
  Francis: You're your own thing that's really special.
• 37:33
  Mark: are we gonna tell people which are the good companies and which are the evil companies?
• 37:37
  Francis: No, we'd like sponsorship from everyone.
• 37:40
  Mark: we stay in our own lane.
• 37:42
  Mark: You know, we, we don't try to be somebody that we're not, you know, we, we distill really damn good.
• 37:51
  Mark: Apple jack and apple brandy, know, we have different divisions of our company.
• 37:56
  Mark: We do contract packaging.
• 37:57
  Mark: We import wines and spirits and so forth in order to, we had to diversify to be able to still be, have our doors open today.
• 38:06
  Mark: I depended on applejack.
• 38:07
  Mark: We would've been closed a long time ago.
• 38:10
  Mark: Um, but yet we just stay in our own lame, you know, we know what we're good at.
• 38:16
  Mark: We have the heritage and the history that nobody else can compare to.
• 38:20
  Mark: Um, there was a 20 year period that my uncle sold the majority portion of our company, Oh, that's so we were.
• 38:31
  Mark: not know that.
• 38:32
  Mark: We were minority owners, and it was 1993, my dad sat me down'cause we were told the majority holders were going to sell and we had first right of refusal.
• 38:47
  Mark: And my father sat me down and said, okay, is this what you wanna do?
• 38:52
  Mark: Do you wanna continue the family business What a great story.
• 38:55
  Mark: do we wanna just get out of the business?
• 38:58
  Mark: And at that point, like, I didn't even have children yet.
• 39:01
  Mark: Mm-hmm.
• 39:02
  Mark: And I'm like, Nope, this is what I want to do.
• 39:05
  Mark: I'm the ninth generation, it's not gonna end with me.
• 39:10
  Mark: And you know, we put everything we owned up as collateral in order to purchase a hundred percent of the company back.
• 39:18
  Francis: I'm gonna cry.
• 39:19
  Francis: I'm
• 39:19
  Mark: I am so proud of you
• 39:20
  Francis: right now.
• 39:21
  Francis: I, I
• 39:21
  Mark: it was, it was tough.
• 39:23
  Mark: Like, I'm like, if, if I screw this up, I lose every my house, everything.
• 39:28
  Mark: Um,
• 39:29
  Francis: Lisa.
• 39:30
  Francis: I've known you for 25 years.
• 39:31
  Francis: I've never, I didn't know I've, and
• 39:33
  Mark: didn't know that.
• 39:34
  Mark: either.
• 39:34
  Mark: I
• 39:34
  Francis: that.
• 39:34
  Mark: Yeah.
• 39:34
  Mark: We really don't advertise that time period.
• 39:37
  Mark: I, I tell you, there was a huge fight between my father and my uncle in that time period when he sold.
• 39:43
  Mark: but I am so damn happy that I made that decision You preserved a legacy.
• 39:51
  Mark: that are in
• 39:53
  Francis: Oh.
• 39:53
  Mark: the company and wanna carry it on, and we're in our 10th generation.
• 39:57
  Mark: If I said, no, let's just sell, that wouldn't have happened.
• 40:02
  Mark: Lisa, I have never heard that story.
• 40:04
  Mark: That is an amazing story.
• 40:06
  Mark: but I, you know what, if you're gonna last 10 generations, there are gonna be stories like that of where you are on the precipice and you, you made a decision that that pushed you over the top.
• 40:18
  Mark: I mean, we're here, oh my God, 34 years, That'll be this year, and there are five stories in 35 years.
• 40:25
  Mark: I can't imagine what there is in, in, 200 years or a 250.
• 40:30
  Mark: years almost, you know, there.
• 40:32
  Mark: How many, how many times that the business is on the precipice.
• 40:36
  Mark: I love that you dark years, that was during those dark years, that's when, you know, that's when we had sold a portion of the company.
• 40:47
  Mark: You know, it was a difficult time.
• 40:48
  Mark: So, I mean, I can see why it happened for the, the influx of capital.
• 40:55
  Mark: Um, but thankfully we purchased it back and it's a hundred percent family owned and we will continue
• 41:03
  Francis: and you purchased it back before the big Renaissance when it would've been
• 41:06
  Mark: did, we had no idea that was gonna
• 41:08
  Francis: No, I mean, so that speaks to
• 41:10
  Mark: if you ca hold on.
• 41:11
  Mark: If you came into stage left bar in 1993 and had a Jack R, you would've said, Hey, this drink's coming back.
• 41:17
  Mark: Yeah.
• 41:18
  Mark: There's no question This drink's coming back.
• 41:20
  Francis: Yeah.
• 41:20
  Francis: But if you had to put
• 41:21
  Mark: I hadn't met you guys yet.
• 41:23
  Francis: But if you had to put your house up on it, I don't know that you'd, you'd
• 41:26
  Mark: Yeah, no.
• 41:27
  Mark: Everything, we owned all, you know, my father, my cousin, myself, we put our homes up for as collateral and
• 41:34
  Francis: You know, I,
• 41:34
  Mark: so it was a big deal.
• 41:35
  Francis: I think,
• 41:36
  Mark: hold on.
• 41:36
  Mark: I think there's a big story here and it's a story of small business and it's a story of family owned business and it's the story that people don't realize.
• 41:47
  Mark: Okay.
• 41:48
  Mark: if stage left failed in 2008 when the market crashed, I was gonna lose my house.
• 41:55
  Mark: Oh yeah.
• 41:56
  Mark: Okay.
• 41:56
  Mark: I was gonna go live with my parents or my brother, or, you know, that's what was gonna happen in 2008 when the market crashed.
• 42:04
  Mark: And, and people just don't realize how much sometimes is invested in these little places.
• 42:10
  Mark: And it's one of the reasons Francis and I.
• 42:12
  Mark: when, when we're bashing a place, we, we never mentioned the place that we're, that we're talking about.
• 42:17
  Mark: Yeah.
• 42:17
  Mark: Even if something terrible happened
• 42:19
  Francis: it's the man in the pit.
• 42:20
  Francis: Those people took a chance and they're out there struggling.
• 42:23
  Mark: That's somebody's mortgage, that's somebody's life.
• 42:25
  Mark: That's somebody's livelihood.
• 42:26
  Mark: And, and I wish people were a little more careful and thoughtful when, when you talk about things like that.
• 42:34
  Francis: Well, and I
• 42:35
  Mark: Well, today, now with social media, you know, they can say whatever they want because they're not, saying it to anybody's face.
• 42:43
  Mark: And it's horrible it's not just their livelihood, it's their Yeah.
• 42:47
  Francis: absolutely.
• 42:48
  Francis: And I, I think that people don't make enough of a distinction between small businesses and big businesses.
• 42:54
  Francis: So if Chipotle closes 400 stores Yeah.
• 42:58
  Francis: That's really bad.
• 42:59
  Francis: And, and
• 43:00
  Mark: And, there are a lot of people looking for work.
• 43:01
  Mark: Yep.
• 43:02
  Francis: Abt, uh, definitely bad.
• 43:03
  Francis: But if somebody closes Bob Smith's store on the corner of Maine and Central Bob Smith and his family might lose their fricking house.
• 43:13
  Francis: And they may have worked for, and you know what happens with small businesses is a lot of people who own small businesses, people are like, oh, business owners are fat cats.
• 43:21
  Francis: I'm like, yeah.
• 43:21
  Francis: The CEO of the place that operates 900 restaurants, he's, he flies private.
• 43:26
  Francis: You know
• 43:26
  Mark: might Be fat, I'm no cat.
• 43:28
  Francis: Yeah.
• 43:28
  Francis: but
• 43:29
  Mark: I fly economy.
• 43:30
  Francis: Yeah.
• 43:31
  Francis: Well, you know, you count those moths, but the.
• 43:34
  Francis: The, the small family owned business, especially the multi-generational business, it made no economic sense for you and your family to put your houses on the line.
• 43:44
  Francis: Right.
• 43:44
  Francis: to save Lairds and company when it was a struggling business that may or may not have made it.
• 43:50
  Francis: And you did it for your employees, for your family, for the communities you operate in.
• 43:55
  Francis: And, you know, people
• 43:56
  Mark: for history, I, History is part of it and, and legacy is part of it.
• 44:00
  Mark: It's, it is.
• 44:01
  Francis: and I think there's just not enough distinction made between small business owners who often make less than their highest paid employees.
• 44:08
  Francis: And sometimes you make it and things are great,
• 44:11
  Mark: I can vouch for that.
• 44:12
  Mark: Sure.
• 44:13
  Francis: And sometimes, you know, why do I do, I could have made much more money doing something else.
• 44:17
  Francis: Mark could have made much more money doing something else.
• 44:18
  Mark: the family, we, we don't take bonuses.
• 44:21
  Mark: We don't, we cut our pay in order to take care of You don't cash your paychecks.
• 44:26
  Mark: I've lived it.
• 44:27
  Mark: Right.
• 44:28
  Francis: bad,
• 44:28
  Mark: you know, Francis and I two two, cocktails and We really start to wax sentimental.
• 44:32
  Mark: You should see what's gonna
• 44:34
  Francis: You should love us.
• 44:35
  Francis: Oh, you should love
• 44:36
  Mark: see what's gonna happen when we're three cocktails in.
• 44:39
  Mark: We're gonna take a little break here while Francis makes us another Jack Rose with the 10th generation.
• 44:45
  Francis: All right, I'll be back in just a moment.
• 44:47
  Mark: All right.
• 44:47
  Mark: So thank you Francis for bringing us this third cocktail again.
• 44:51
  Mark: This is with the 10th generation.
• 44:53
  Francis: What do you think?
• 44:54
  Francis: I, I haven't even tried it yet.
• 44:55
  Francis: I didn't even, I didn't even straw
• 44:56
  Mark: it.
• 44:57
  Mark: is more frothy than the first cocktail.
• 44:59
  Mark: Less frothy than the second cocktail.
• 45:03
  Mark: Cheers.
• 45:03
  Mark: Cheers.
• 45:04
  Mark: Here we go.
• 45:04
  Mark: Trying it out.
• 45:06
  Mark: Francis has a, has consternation on his
• 45:08
  Francis: face.
• 45:09
  Francis: It's good.
• 45:09
  Francis: That's good.
• 45:10
  Francis: It's complex.
• 45:11
  Francis: Really much more complex than any of the other ones.
• 45:13
  Francis: It's almost like a different drink.
• 45:15
  Mark: Oh, it is a different drink.
• 45:17
  Mark: You know what, the apple's really shining through on
• 45:19
  Francis: this.
• 45:19
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 45:20
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 45:20
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 45:20
  Mark: Mm-hmm.
• 45:21
  Mark: The, the apple didn't shine through quite as much on the first two cocktails.
• 45:25
  Mark: This has much more apple flavor to it.
• 45:28
  Mark: Is that a, a function of the, of the extra year in barrel?
• 45:31
  Mark: What's you you told me that, that it loses apple flavor as it ages.
• 45:36
  Mark: Yeah, but it's still a 5-year-old, so it's not that old.
• 45:39
  Mark: Um, but yeah, that was interesting that'cause I have not tried that Oh, it's so appley.
• 45:45
  Mark: It's so appley and delicious.
• 45:47
  Mark: different.
• 45:48
  Mark: it's totally
• 45:49
  Francis: different.
• 45:49
  Francis: Yeah.
• 45:49
  Francis: It's co it's cocktail.
• 45:50
  Francis: It's complex.
• 45:50
  Francis: It's really complex.
• 45:52
  Francis: I want to geek out for, for cocktail geeks here for a minute.
• 45:55
  Francis: if you look into apple jack jacking spirits, that's a name that comes from when Canadians and people lived in the far north of the United States who had very cold
• 46:05
  Mark: cold places.
• 46:05
  Mark: You had to be someplace cold.
• 46:07
  Francis: Let's say if you were were jacking apple cider, You'd make a, you'd make an alcoholic cider and then you would stick it out in your Sub-Zero temperatures.
• 46:15
  Francis: 'cause what the hell else are you gonna do when you're up there hunting, walrus is, or whatever you're doing, and, and, and you'd leave it outside And, um.
• 46:23
  Francis: And it would freeze like an ice wine or an ice beer.
• 46:27
  Francis: because the water would freeze off it, that would elevate the
• 46:31
  Mark: the water would freeze before the, the apple
• 46:33
  Francis: right and then you take the ice out and that would elevate the alcohol left in your jacked cider.
• 46:41
  Francis: And I remember once there was one other, um, applejack available and, and it wasn't available.
• 46:48
  Francis: It was only available in one state.
• 46:50
  Francis: And I read about it in a magazine and we had a restaurant guy's podcast where he said, listen, if anyone's gonna be in this state, I forget which state it was, please go get a bottle of this stuff.
• 46:58
  Francis: And they brought it back.
• 46:59
  Francis: And boy was it disappointing Crap.
• 47:02
  Francis: Uh, sorry.
• 47:02
  Francis: I'm so sorry.
• 47:04
  Francis: Because what happened was when they stuck the apple cider out, now they had frozen it, right?
• 47:08
  Francis: But what happened was that the apple cider oxidized and turned to charitable apple cider.
• 47:15
  Francis: Your family makes the only commercial apple jack.
• 47:17
  Francis: Now there are actually a couple more, but for a long time your family made the only commercial apple jack.
• 47:21
  Francis: It's really the only one of
• 47:22
  Mark: it's the only one we care
• 47:23
  Francis: Well, it's the only one that makes any volume of it.
• 47:25
  Francis: And you own the market pretty much.
• 47:28
  Mark: this is really a complex cocktail, what it really
• 47:31
  Francis: It really is.
• 47:31
  Francis: It's great.
• 47:32
  Francis: It's great.
• 47:33
  Francis: But
• 47:33
  Mark: That's what happens when we're drinking during the show.
• 47:35
  Mark: We just keep interrupting with, with, with comments about the cocktail.
• 47:38
  Francis: But so why did you take the name Apple Jack and was it ever truly Apple jack or was it just That was a colonial New Jersey tradition that, because it's always been apple brandy, but it's not ever really been Apple.
• 47:52
  Francis: Jack has it.
• 47:53
  Mark: We've never jacked, as far as I know, I'm, you know, my ancestors came over from Scotland, pretty sure they were distilling Scotland.
• 48:02
  Mark: If they didn't bring a still with them, they knew how to build one.
• 48:05
  Francis: Right.
• 48:06
  Mark: But there were stills here in the colonial area as early as the 16
• 48:11
  Francis: Sure.
• 48:12
  Mark: So there was, it was pretty much the farmers.
• 48:17
  Mark: That didn't have access to a still that were jacking or the fractional distilling.
• 48:22
  Mark: Um, but there were communal stills.
• 48:25
  Mark: Like even in a church, churches would have communal skills where, I'm having too much jack roses communal stills.
• 48:33
  Francis: to the wrong church.
• 48:36
  Mark: do that anymore.
• 48:37
  Mark: I, you know what, a lot more of us would go to church.
• 48:40
  Mark: They had us still at church.
• 48:43
  Mark: Um, so yeah.
• 48:44
  Mark: Now we did not Jack,
• 48:47
  Francis: but how did you come up with the name of using Applejack?
• 48:49
  Francis: Because it is a
• 48:51
  Mark: somebody, nine generations.
• 48:52
  Francis: How did your, do you know how the family started using Applejack?
• 48:55
  Francis: Because it's a great name and it sets you guys apart.
• 48:57
  Francis: I think if, if your family had gone with Apple brandy, it would not have taken the iconic space it does in American, because you can make Apple brandy anywhere.
• 49:07
  Francis: Apple Jack says America says New Jersey.
• 49:11
  Mark: Absolutely.
• 49:12
  Mark: Well, I think it was just the term that was being used, not so much that it was just jacked.
• 49:17
  Mark: You know, people today, we can look back and say, oh, it was the jacking method that created apple jack.
• 49:25
  Mark: But back during that time period, you called everything apple
• 49:27
  Francis: Right.
• 49:28
  Francis: Just gimme apples with booze in it.
• 49:29
  Francis: And it's apple jack.
• 49:30
  Mark: Yeah.
• 49:30
  Mark: And like even our post prohibition packages said Laird's, apple jack, brandy.
• 49:37
  Francis: So how does, now the other famous apple brandy in the world is Calvados, right?
• 49:42
  Francis: It's from Normandy, and your family's apple brandy slash applejack behave somewhere between a whiskey and an apple brandy, like the, you can't compare laird's apple brandy to calvados.
• 50:00
  Francis: They are two totally different things and, and two wonderful things.
• 50:05
  Francis: Uh, Calvados can't do what Laird's apple brandy can do.
• 50:09
  Francis: And, and, and, you know, Laird's apple brandy doesn't even try to do what Calvados does.
• 50:15
  Francis: What's the difference?
• 50:16
  Francis: Why does your apple brandy behave more like a whiskey in cocktails than, I mean, you can substitute a, your apple brandy in d various proofs for rye and bourbon and come up with it's, it's a classic way to make a new cocktail for bartenders pop in apple jack instead of X American whiskey.
• 50:35
  Francis: Boom.
• 50:35
  Mark: By the way, we did it with your, your Irish, your Irish cream.
• 50:39
  Mark: We did it with your we did it with your Irish cream.
• 50:41
  Mark: We, we'd made an apple jack cream We, because, which is spectacular.
• 50:46
  Francis: one of the, uh, nicknames for Laird's Applejack is Jersey Lightning.
• 50:50
  Francis: Mm-hmm.
• 50:50
  Francis: And we made a Jersey lightning cream to go along with our Irish cream, which we make for my family's recipe.
• 50:56
  Francis: It's spectacular.
• 50:57
  Mark: great.
• 50:59
  Mark: Yeah, well, Monmouth County and, well, New Jersey, but Monmouth County in particular were known for their production of Applejack as the best Applejack Jersey Lightning, uh, um, that was created, that was produced.
• 51:13
  Mark: We, I have an article from the 18 hundreds talking about it and how the still was passed from father to son, which I think that maybe they were talking don't know.
• 51:22
  Mark: I, I gotta tell you, I just love that you can talk about your ancestors and your ancestors.
• 51:29
  Mark: Were making the same product you're making, like, I like when I talk about my ancestors, I'm talking about, you know.
• 51:35
  Mark: Some guy on, an island off of Italy who was, making carpets or something, you know, it has, has nothing to do with, with what I'm doing right now, but here you are making your ancestors product today and, and serving it to, the country.
• 51:51
  Francis: Just wanna interject potatoes.
• 51:52
  Francis: We were growing potatoes, so anyway, um, how did your family and I agree with Mark, I agree with you entirely and wholeheartedly.
• 52:02
  Francis: How did your family's business survive?
• 52:04
  Francis: Prohibition,
• 52:07
  Mark: So I was told we were producing non-alcoholic apple When you think about it, we're making apple cider.
• 52:15
  Mark: Who the heck were we selling it There's a lot of bootleg operations in the woods all around us.
• 52:22
  Mark: Um, so I'm sure we were selling a lot to local bootleggers.
• 52:26
  Mark: Um, my grandfather at one time was making a apple soda called five apple.
• 52:32
  Mark: there were no bootleggers in New Jersey, I don't know what you're talking about.
• 52:35
  Mark: No, there was a ton of'em.
• 52:36
  Mark: Yeah.
• 52:37
  Mark: And, um, and then my grandfather and his brother, petitioned the federal government for a permit to produce for medicinal
• 52:48
  Francis: Yes.
• 52:49
  Francis: I love everybody who got one of those.
• 52:51
  Francis: I respect you so
• 52:52
  Mark: got one of those.
• 52:54
  Mark: Put us back on the map.
• 52:55
  Mark: There you go.
• 52:56
  Mark: Good news.
• 52:57
  Mark: And there's articles where Laird owner afraid of hijackers and gangsters'cause we were producing during prohibition.
• 53:08
  Francis: And so what, what, where was it officially supposed to be going?
• 53:12
  Francis: All this medicine that your family was making?
• 53:14
  Mark: Well, there were prescriptions for, you know, ailments.
• 53:18
  Mark: One was depression, which, who the hell wasn't depressed
• 53:21
  Francis: prohibition.
• 53:21
  Francis: I'd have been depressed, I'll tell you that
• 53:22
  Mark: My uncle gave me a bottle of the medicinal.
• 53:25
  Mark: whiskey from, or from it's kind of crazy.
• 53:27
  Mark: But yeah, there was actual ailments that you could get a prescription of.
• 53:32
  Francis: There's a famous story that when, when Winston Churchill came to visit the United States, he got a prescription from his doctor back in England that he had to have like a, a court of whiskey every two days or
• 53:43
  Mark: gout.
• 53:44
  Mark: I need, I need, Whiskey.
• 53:46
  Mark: Yeah, do too.
• 53:47
  Mark: say no to Winston Churchill?
• 53:49
  Francis: that's, no, you did not.
• 53:50
  Francis: You did
• 53:50
  Mark: No.
• 53:51
  Francis: alright.
• 53:51
  Francis: I hate to do this, uh, because we've just had too much time that a podcast can only be so long.
• 53:56
  Francis: Lisa, we have to have you back on again.
• 53:58
  Francis: Absolutely.
• 53:59
  Francis: And I wanna invite Lar and Company, if not you, yourself, to come and join us at stage.
• 54:04
  Francis: Left in Catherine Lombardi on the 4th of July weekend.
• 54:07
  Francis: Let's celebrate the 250th anniversary of the country in New Brunswick, New Jersey, where your great-great-great-great, great, great-great grandfather sold Applejack to George Washington's army when they
• 54:17
  Mark: were We're gonna do something fun with Laird's Applejack on July 4th.
• 54:20
  Mark: Count on it.
• 54:21
  Francis: Yeah, you in.
• 54:21
  Mark: That would be a blast.
• 54:24
  Francis: now we have to also schedule another show'cause we could talk for another four hours.
• 54:29
  Francis: Amazing.
• 54:30
  Francis: Listen, Lisa, you're one of our favorite people.
• 54:32
  Francis: you have so much of our respect and your family and what you've done is so important from New Jersey, for America, for spirits, for cocktails, and you weathered the storm of the rough times and we couldn't be more proud to call you our friend.
• 54:43
  Francis: So thanks for coming on the show.
• 54:45
  Mark: Well, you know, I love you guys.
• 54:46
  Mark: You're like family to us and I'm very honored to be on your show and anytime you want me to come on board, especially to have a couple Jack roses, I'm here.
• 54:57
  Mark: Thanks Lisa.
• 54:58
  Francis: Anyway, I hope you guys enjoyed this hour as much as we have.
• 55:01
  Francis: Uh, I still have half a cocktail list, so I'm not going anywhere.
• 55:03
  Francis: But you guys enjoy yourselves.
• 55:04
  Francis: You can always find out more about us, like follow and subscribe@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
• 55:33
  Mark: Alright, Francis, I have a great story for you that you've never heard before.
• 55:38
  Francis: I have had so many stories that I never heard before.
• 55:40
  Francis: Today on this
• 55:40
  Mark: show.
• 55:41
  Francis: This has been my, one of my favorite shows ever.
• 55:43
  Francis: Go ahead,
• 55:44
  Mark: me.
• 55:44
  Mark: Alright.
• 55:44
  Mark: I don't know if you know this, so we were talking earlier about prohibition and what, what Laird did to get through Prohibition.
• 55:50
  Francis: Yeah, yeah.
• 55:51
  Mark: So you don't know Catherine Marc Sig?
• 55:54
  Mark: Leono Lombardi?
• 55:56
  Francis: Oh,
• 55:56
  Mark: Married to Eddie Lombardi.
• 55:59
  Mark: During prohibition.
• 56:00
  Francis: Oh.
• 56:01
  Francis: What was the reception like?
• 56:02
  Mark: The reception was amazing.
• 56:05
  Mark: because Eddie Lombardi knew all the right guys.
• 56:09
  Francis: was an undertaker.
• 56:10
  Francis: I say with my finger on my nose.
• 56:13
  Francis: He was an undertaker in Brooklyn,
• 56:15
  Mark: so he knew all the right guys.
• 56:17
  Mark: Aw.
• 56:17
  Mark: So before the wedding?
• 56:20
  Mark: They went.
• 56:21
  Mark: To the guy and they paid the guy and they had liquor at their wedding.
• 56:28
  Mark: I love it.
• 56:28
  Mark: Their wedding was the party of parties.
• 56:30
  Mark: I love it.
• 56:30
  Mark: And it was during prohibition and it was this absolutely amazing event where, alcoholic beverages were served.
• 56:40
  Mark: You know,
• 56:41
  Francis: I have to say, as much as I really enjoy all of the cocktails that we had today, and we have, and I'm a little bit loosened up, I'll be honest with
• 56:50
  Mark: you.
• 56:51
  Francis: So, so, so, so the only thing that would make these cocktails taste a little bit better is if they were illegal.
• 56:59
  Francis: Like if, if this, if this were against the law for us to do, we'd be a pirate radio station.
• 57:06
  Francis: You wouldn't know our names and we'd be the restaurant guys.
• 57:09
  Francis: But No, that's
• 57:10
  Mark: I, I know I never told you
• 57:12
  Francis: story.
• 57:12
  Francis: No, but
• 57:13
  Mark: they, Had to go.
• 57:14
  Mark: pay the guy.
• 57:15
  Mark: Yeah.
• 57:16
  Mark: so they would have liquor at their wedding and so they bought whiskey and, other things so they could have it at their wedding.
• 57:22
  Francis: All I'm gonna say to you is as a card carrying member of the Friendly Sons of the Elli,
• 57:27
  Mark: that the
• 57:27
  Francis: Irish and the Italian had more in common.
• 57:29
  Francis: Even though they hated each other, they had more in common than they did not, which is why we were friends
• 57:34
  Mark: today.
• 57:34
  Mark: We had whiskey at our weddings.
• 57:36
  Francis: Absolutely.
• 57:36
  Francis: Yeah.
• 57:36
  Francis: I love it.
• 57:37
  Francis: I love it.
• 57:37
  Francis: Anyway, I hope you guys have enjoyed this hour as much as we have.
• 57:40
  Francis: What a tremendous story.
• 57:41
  Francis: Come see us on the 4th of July.
• 57:43
  Francis: our episode is in 2026.
• 57:45
  Francis: It's gonna be a great time with Lisa Laird.
• 57:47
  Francis: and if you want to help support us, you can like, follow and even subscribe@restaurantguyspodcast.com.
• 57:53
  Francis: We'd love to see you.
• 57:54
  Francis: I'm Francis Shot.
• 57:55
  Mark: I'm Mark Pascal.
• 57:56
  Francis: We are the restaurant guys.
• 57:57
  Francis: Catch you soon@restaurantguyspodcast.com.