Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #765 You Can't Do It All: Amy Taylor-Kabbaz on Modern Motherhood

Transcript

#765 You Can't Do It All: Amy Taylor-Kabbaz on Modern Motherhood · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

0:03
Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
0:05
Speaker 2: It's the podcast for.
0:07
Speaker 1: The time poor parent who just wants answers Now. Hello,
0:11
Speaker 1: this is the Happy Family's podcast. My name is Stops
0:13
Speaker 1: Justin Colson, the founder of Happy Families and the parenting
0:15
Speaker 1: expert on the hit TV show Parental Guidance. Season two
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Speaker 1: just weeks away to being on your screens on the
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Speaker 1: Channel nine. Cannot wait for you to see season two
0:24
Speaker 1: On the podcast. Today, I'm speaking to Amy Taylor Cabaz.
0:27
Speaker 1: She's the founder of the Happy Mumma movement, author of
0:30
Speaker 1: Mumma Rising, and she has her own podcasts as well.
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Speaker 1: Amy thinks deeply about what it means to be a
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Speaker 1: mum in modern times, embracing the beautiful mess and the
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Speaker 1: idea of what you might have heard of before. It's
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Speaker 1: a word that doesn't get thrown around a lot. It's
0:45
Speaker 1: called matrescence.
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Speaker 2: One of the biggest realizations I've had, not only in
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Speaker 2: my own experience of motherhood over the last fifteen years,
0:56
Speaker 2: but the thousands of mums that I've coached through my
0:59
Speaker 2: programs over the years, is that we never feel like
1:03
Speaker 2: we're on top of it. We never feel like we've
1:05
Speaker 2: nailed this parenting thing. In fact, that's not true. I
1:08
Speaker 2: have fleeting moments of thinking, God, that's.
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Speaker 1: Good, Amy, this is I've got it, I've got.
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Speaker 2: It, and then three seconds later, one of them will yell,
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Speaker 2: one of them will do something, something will happen, and
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Speaker 2: that feeling's gone again. So I think it's come to
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Speaker 2: the point where now I'm just at that point of
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Speaker 2: acceptance that this is what it looks like and this
1:29
Speaker 2: is actually doing a great job, you know, headscarf and all.
1:34
Speaker 1: I have a question for you, a headscarf lady, how
1:36
Speaker 1: old were you when you finally made it to that point,
1:40
Speaker 1: because this is a critically important thing I reckon while
1:43
Speaker 1: you're pondering your answer, I'm dangerously close to fifty. I'm
1:48
Speaker 1: in my late forties now, and again, I never I mean,
1:51
Speaker 1: those words just don't make sense to me. I'm so
1:54
Speaker 1: old that my eldest daughter, who's been married for three
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Speaker 1: and a bit years, is having serious conversation about her
2:02
Speaker 1: procreative capacity. And I mean, I don't even want to
2:05
Speaker 1: say the word, but I'm going to say it because
2:07
Speaker 1: we're on the summit. But the word grandfather, yeh is
2:11
Speaker 1: starting to pop up in conversations. I mean, there's nothing,
2:14
Speaker 1: nothing happening yet, but the suggestion is that the next
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Speaker 1: couple of years. And I mean, here's how old I
2:19
Speaker 1: am the other night, So not not long ago. We
2:21
Speaker 1: moved to the coast a few months ago and moved
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Speaker 1: the coast and a great neighborhood, great community. Some people
2:27
Speaker 1: that we didn't know said, hey, why do you come
2:28
Speaker 1: and have dinner with us on Friday nights? So we
2:30
Speaker 1: went out for dinner just the other week and we're
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Speaker 1: sitting with these people and they're definitely a couple of
2:35
Speaker 1: years older than us, and their kids are all adults,
2:37
Speaker 1: but they only had a couple of kids, and I mean,
2:39
Speaker 1: we've got a couple of adult kids now as well,
2:40
Speaker 1: three of them, and so we didn't really think that
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Speaker 1: there was much of a difference between us. And this
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Speaker 1: is the terrifying thing. They don't look that much older
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Speaker 1: than us. They're definitely older than us, maybe five seven
2:50
Speaker 1: years older. She's sixty three and he's sixty one. And
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Speaker 1: I'm like, what am I going to dinner with sixty
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Speaker 1: year olds? For what's happened to me? But like it
3:01
Speaker 1: creeps up on us, doesn't it. So how old were
3:03
Speaker 1: you when you kind of went this is kind of
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Speaker 1: who I am, and the whole hot mess thing. I
3:09
Speaker 1: just need to accept that this is what life actually is.
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Speaker 1: It's a process of making it up as we go along,
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Speaker 1: but hopefully getting better at the stuff we're making up
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Speaker 1: because we get to experience more and more. When did
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Speaker 1: it really kind of start to click for you?
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Speaker 2: My youngest is eight. I have three children at the moment, fourteen, twelve,
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Speaker 2: and eight, and I think when he was about four,
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Speaker 2: three or four. I call it in my work the
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Speaker 2: inner mean Mama, this internal dialogue that says, you're doing
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Speaker 2: a bad job, you should be doing better, You're screwing
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Speaker 2: this up. I can't do this anymore. That it's almost
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Speaker 2: Sometimes it's so unconscious we don't even realize we're telling ourselves.
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Speaker 2: I think it was about three or four years into
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Speaker 2: his life that I really started to be able to
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Speaker 2: silence that in a consistent way. Is it still there? Yes,
4:00
Speaker 2: it was there yesterday. But I know how to recognize it.
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Speaker 2: I know it's not my truth, and I know how
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Speaker 2: to speak back to it. But that took I started
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Speaker 2: that process when my first was born fourteen years ago.
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Speaker 2: It's taken me a really, really long time to turn
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Speaker 2: that in a judgment off and silence it. I think now,
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Speaker 2: and I can say this without ego and quite strongly.
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Speaker 2: I know I'm a great mum to my kids, but
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Speaker 2: that doesn't mean I'm perfect. I just know that I'm
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Speaker 2: doing the best I can every single day, and it's
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Speaker 2: taken me a long time to feel confident in that. However,
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Speaker 2: I am still working much more strongly on feeling like
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Speaker 2: less of a hot mess in other parts of my life.
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Speaker 2: So it's like I shifted all my focus on too
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Speaker 2: really taming that inner mean mumma voice for many, many years.
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Speaker 2: And because my kids are now at that beautiful age
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Speaker 2: where we can have conversations and I can and see that,
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Speaker 2: you know what, they are growing into really great human beings.
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Speaker 2: I think when they're really little, it's hard to know
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Speaker 2: if you're doing a good job. It's hard to know
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Speaker 2: whether those toddler tantrums are going to turn into a
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Speaker 2: you know, an adolescent that you know breaks into homes
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Speaker 2: and gets drunk, and you know, it's harder to know
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Speaker 2: you're on the right track when they're really little. Now
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Speaker 2: that my kids are this age and we sit around
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Speaker 2: the dinner table and have these amazing conversations like it's
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Speaker 2: my favorite part of parenthood to hear them talk about
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Speaker 2: their worries about the planet, their reflections on what they
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Speaker 2: saw on the news, their way that they're handling a
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Speaker 2: difficult friendship at school. Even my eight year old you know,
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Speaker 2: I can see, yeah, okay, we're on the right track.
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Speaker 2: Other parts of my life, like work relationships, there's still
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Speaker 2: an ongoing internal coaching that I have to do to
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Speaker 2: just settle this perfectionist tendency I've always had ever since
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Speaker 2: I was little, about how perfectly I need to have
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Speaker 2: this all done.
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Speaker 1: I really like the idea of experience. As I'm hearing
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Speaker 1: what you're reflecting. I mean, this is why I had
6:08
Speaker 1: six kids, right. We just keep on going till we
6:10
Speaker 1: get it right. I'm just kidding. But what we found
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Speaker 1: is the more kids we've had and the more experience
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Speaker 1: we've had with child rearing, the more comfortable we've become
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Speaker 1: with what matters and what does and the less that questioning, nagging,
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Speaker 1: doubting voice has impact on us, and we become increasingly settled. Amy.
6:30
Speaker 1: I've got a copy of your book, Mumma Rising, but
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Speaker 1: it's just out of reach on the floor behind me.
6:34
Speaker 1: Because when Kylie and I were recording a podcast the
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Speaker 1: other day, she had it in the hand and she
6:37
Speaker 1: placed it on the floor there. I can't go go
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Speaker 1: gadget arms to get it, and I want to stay
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Speaker 1: here in front of the in front of the camera
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Speaker 1: while I'm chatting with you. So I'm just going to
6:44
Speaker 1: need everyone to believe that you've written a book called
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Speaker 1: Mumma Rising, and imagine that I'm holding it up for you.
6:49
Speaker 1: Let's talk about this now. This conversation as part of
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Speaker 1: the hot Mess Summit is probably give more towards mums
6:54
Speaker 1: than dads, but I think dads will certainly learn and
6:57
Speaker 1: get great value out of this discussion. So Dad's hang
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Speaker 1: around for this one please. I've got a handful of
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Speaker 1: questions about what you've written in the book, and a
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Speaker 1: handful of questions about the whole subject of being a
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Speaker 1: hot mess. So, now that we know how old we
7:10
Speaker 1: are and how we are all just making it up
7:13
Speaker 1: as we go along, I want to go back to
7:15
Speaker 1: the beginnings of parenthood for just a sec As we
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Speaker 1: as we first become parents, we often come to what
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Speaker 1: with the perfect image of what we think it should be.
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Speaker 1: I know my perfect image was my kids will listen
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Speaker 1: to me and do us they're told, which was a
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Speaker 1: disastrous approach to parenting. It didn't work very well at all.
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Speaker 1: But you speak a lot about where that perfect image
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Speaker 1: comes from and how to change it. Can we just
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Speaker 1: start there?
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Speaker 2: Yes, I think it's so important for us to get
7:43
Speaker 2: a cultural and historical understanding of where we get these
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Speaker 2: ideas from, because you know, whether you're our age, justin
7:51
Speaker 2: or younger, most women on the planet have been told
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Speaker 2: since they were born that they could do anything. That
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Speaker 2: we are in the generation now of theist and that
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Speaker 2: we now have choice, although it depends on where in
8:02
Speaker 2: the world do you have that choice right now? But
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Speaker 2: we have this ability to be a mum and be
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Speaker 2: something else. You know, I distinctly remember growing up feeling
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Speaker 2: like I needed to never be just a mum. Being
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Speaker 2: just a mum was a waste of my skills, my talents,
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Speaker 2: my life because we were really raised in this era
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Speaker 2: of our opportunity and the glass ceiling and you know,
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Speaker 2: smashing through the glass ceiling. But what that did to
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Speaker 2: our generation and is still doing in a lot of ways,
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Speaker 2: is undervaluing motherhood.
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Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said that, because as you say,
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Speaker 1: just a mum. I pause and Kylie only ever wanted
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Speaker 1: to be a mum.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I've worked with a lot of women who
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Speaker 2: say that as well, Like Amly, I actually did only
8:53
Speaker 2: ever want to be a mum, but I felt like
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Speaker 2: that wasn't enough by others.
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Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
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Speaker 2: So no matter how you came to it, whether it's
9:01
Speaker 2: a surprising turn of events to want to be a
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Speaker 2: mom so much because you thought you'd always be career driven,
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Speaker 2: or whether it's been ever since you're a little girl
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Speaker 2: you knew that motherhood was your thing. We come to
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Speaker 2: this and in the moment of becoming a mother, we
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Speaker 2: experience what we know now as matrescence. It's this change
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Speaker 2: in identity. It's not only a change in your brain
9:21
Speaker 2: and in your hormones and in your body, of course, but
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Speaker 2: it's also a change in how you view the world,
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Speaker 2: how you view yourself, your relationships, your economic status, your
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Speaker 2: position in society, all of it. The best way to
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Speaker 2: understand it is like matrescence is like adolescence. It's this
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Speaker 2: period of becoming this new version of yourself. So just
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Speaker 2: like a child doesn't wake up on its thirteenth birthday
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Speaker 2: and is suddenly an adult. There's this period of and
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Speaker 2: you would know better than anyone that it's actually almost
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Speaker 2: a decade of brain changes, hormonal changes, but also personal
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Speaker 2: changes of pushing back and questioning and and exploring different
10:02
Speaker 2: things and changing your mind about who you want to
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Speaker 2: be and what you're here to do, and this real
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Speaker 2: transition period. And we know now that that's also what
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Speaker 2: happens to a woman when she becomes a mother, and
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Speaker 2: so if we are to so for example, for me,
10:19
Speaker 2: I always thought that, yeah, I'd love to be a mum,
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Speaker 2: but it will be something that I almost add to
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Speaker 2: my life. But nothing else will change. You know, I'll
10:28
Speaker 2: still be I know.
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Speaker 1: We laugh now I'm going to say famous last words,
10:32
Speaker 1: but you yes.
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Speaker 2: Literally changed everything, as it does for all of us,
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Speaker 2: whether we're aware of it or not. But I thought
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Speaker 2: it would be something I could almost add to my
10:40
Speaker 2: resume in the sense of I'll still work the way
10:43
Speaker 2: I've always worked. I remember my husband and I had
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Speaker 2: a conversation when I was pregnant with our first baby.
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Speaker 2: You know, this is not going to change us, This
10:51
Speaker 2: is not going to change our relationship. We made these
10:53
Speaker 2: commitments not to change. We were still going to be
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Speaker 2: who we were, and that's literally impossible. Motherhood, parenthood, fatherhood
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Speaker 2: changes you at your core and it makes you suddenly
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Speaker 2: revalue everything. So if we are growing up in a
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Speaker 2: period of time where being a parent is not valued,
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Speaker 2: it's not seen, it's not celebrated, we have to justify
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Speaker 2: ourselves to be able to put motherhood first or fatherhood first.
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Speaker 2: And yet internally, this is exactly what's happened. You can
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Speaker 2: feel this split within us. We can feel this. I'm
11:30
Speaker 2: not who I used to be Suddenly. I don't want
11:34
Speaker 2: to go to work like I used to Suddenly. The
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Speaker 2: things that I thought were important just aren't important anymore.
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Speaker 2: When I'm at work, I want to be at home
11:41
Speaker 2: with the baby. When I'm home with baby, I want
11:42
Speaker 2: to be at work because I feel like I'm invisible.
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Speaker 2: We are in this period of matrescence of these deep
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Speaker 2: questioning of who we are, and it is very, very messy.
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Speaker 2: It is the definition of a hot mess.
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Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about it. It's a fundamental
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Speaker 1: identity issue.
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Speaker 2: Right absolutely.
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Speaker 1: But you would just start to say, but we don't
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Speaker 1: talk about it.
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Speaker 2: We don't. And you know, in my study and research
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Speaker 2: around this, justin there's so much talk around that second
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Speaker 2: wave of feminism in the seventies, where we really empowered
12:18
Speaker 2: women to choose whether they wanted to be a mother
12:21
Speaker 2: or not and mother in their own way, and that's
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Speaker 2: what we've been told. But actually, if you scratch the
12:26
Speaker 2: surface of any woman, whether she's a mother or not,
12:30
Speaker 2: and ask her about what her definition of a good
12:33
Speaker 2: mother is, it looks surprisingly like a nineteen fifties version
12:38
Speaker 2: of a mother and a wife. We may externally say
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Speaker 2: that we've released ourselves from that identity, but actually most
12:46
Speaker 2: of us still carry within us this assumption that we
12:49
Speaker 2: should love being a mum every minute every day, that
12:53
Speaker 2: we should fell pregnant naturally and easily, and birth naturally
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Speaker 2: and breastfeed naturally, that we should be happy to sacrifice ourselves,
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Speaker 2: make everything from scratch, you know, play all of the games,
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Speaker 2: do all of the things, and if any of us
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Speaker 2: aren't feeling that way, even if it's just for part
13:13
Speaker 2: of the time, we feel like we're a bad mum.
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Speaker 2: And that's where this idea of the good mother theory
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Speaker 2: comes from. That internally we may say outside, oh, you know, yes,
13:25
Speaker 2: I know, I don't have to do it all and
13:27
Speaker 2: I can get help. But every single mum I've worked
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Speaker 2: with over the years justin feels bad about asking for help,
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Speaker 2: feels like they should make the birthday cake from scratch,
13:36
Speaker 2: feels like they shouldn't be putting their kid in for
13:38
Speaker 2: extra hours at daycare. You know, there is this again
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Speaker 2: in a mean mumma voice, this internal good mother expectation
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Speaker 2: that makes us feel really bad about the reality of
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Speaker 2: the messiness of this time in our life.
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Speaker 1: I love what you're saying here. It reminds me so
13:57
Speaker 1: much of what I've said in the opening remarks to
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Speaker 1: the Summit. I'm talking about the beautiful, beautiful mess effect. Right. So,
14:03
Speaker 1: we love each other's vulnerability, Oh, sorry, not each other's.
14:07
Speaker 1: We love it when other people are vulnerable. We love
14:08
Speaker 1: it when other people ask for help. We love it
14:11
Speaker 1: when other people talk honestly about their body or about
14:14
Speaker 1: their failures as a parent. We love when other people
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Speaker 1: own their stuff. But we feel like we can't do it.
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Speaker 1: We feel like it's fine for all of them to
14:21
Speaker 1: do it because they've actually got it together, and when
14:23
Speaker 1: they're highlighting that they've had a challenge, it's just because
14:26
Speaker 1: they had a challenge, Whereas my life is challenged like
14:29
Speaker 1: there's something going on here with the whole and that's
14:32
Speaker 1: why we're doing the Hot Mess Summit. But this good
14:34
Speaker 1: mother theory, it seems to be almost at the heart
14:37
Speaker 1: of our identity as parents and create so much mother guilt, right, so.
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Speaker 2: Much mother guilt. And you know, I think in a
14:46
Speaker 2: way we're trying to break this. I love what you've
14:48
Speaker 2: just said, because we're trying to break this down at
14:51
Speaker 2: a cultural sort of social media level in some accounts,
14:55
Speaker 2: some accounts still very much hold up the perfect white
14:58
Speaker 2: family with the perfect white kitchen and the perfec white
15:00
Speaker 2: baby in the perfect white outfit.
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Speaker 1: But that looks so good because and it looks so.
15:04
Speaker 2: Good, and pretty much none of us are immune to
15:07
Speaker 2: looking at that and thinking, oh, but I totally agree
15:12
Speaker 2: we forgive each other's messiness, but it actually has to
15:17
Speaker 2: start with forgiving our own messiness. And I think the
15:21
Speaker 2: biggest thing that I do in my work through this
15:23
Speaker 2: lens of matrescence is to break down that cultural assumption
15:27
Speaker 2: of who you're meant to be and what is meant
15:29
Speaker 2: to look like and feel like. You know, there's this
15:32
Speaker 2: another theory that I absolutely fell in love with when
15:35
Speaker 2: I was doing all of this research is the maternal mandate.
15:40
Speaker 2: So the maternal mandate is a description of, again what
15:44
Speaker 2: women assume about themselves and the world assumes about women
15:49
Speaker 2: that if you are born a woman and you are
15:52
Speaker 2: of a certain age, you should be wanting to have children.
15:56
Speaker 2: Once you have one, you should want more, You should
15:58
Speaker 2: feel pregnant easily in that, you should love every minute
16:01
Speaker 2: all of that. And again, this is somehow what we're carrying.
16:07
Speaker 2: You know, ask any woman who is in a long
16:10
Speaker 2: term relationship, someone's going to ask them, are you going
16:13
Speaker 2: to have a baby soon? Once they've had one baby,
16:15
Speaker 2: they're going to say, and when will you have the
16:17
Speaker 2: second one? You know, we continue to put these expectations
16:21
Speaker 2: on each other and ourselves, and the key to being
16:26
Speaker 2: okay with the mess, because it is a beautiful mess,
16:30
Speaker 2: is to realize, I think one of the main important
16:35
Speaker 2: questions we can ask ourselves is whose expectation is this?
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Speaker 2: Where is this coming from? Because it might come from
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Speaker 2: your mum, and it might come from your mother's group.
16:46
Speaker 2: But I think it's also just as empowering to realize
16:49
Speaker 2: it comes from the culture that we've been brought up
16:51
Speaker 2: in that tells us we should be able to do
16:55
Speaker 2: it all. We should be able to have a great home,
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Speaker 2: a great body, a great relationship, be a great mum,
17:03
Speaker 2: be great at work. And it's actually physically not possible
17:07
Speaker 2: to do that on our own the way that we're
17:09
Speaker 2: doing it at the moment. Something has to break.
17:18
Speaker 1: That was Amy Taylor Kebbaz, the founder of the Happy
17:21
Speaker 1: Mamma movement and author of Mamma Rising. I spoke to
17:25
Speaker 1: Amy as part of the Happy Family's hot Mess Summit.
17:27
Speaker 1: You can find out more about the hot Mess Summit
17:29
Speaker 1: at Happy families dot com dot you just jump into
17:31
Speaker 1: the shop. That hot Mess Summit is still available for purchase.
17:34
Speaker 1: And so many great conversations, so many incredibly intelligent and
17:38
Speaker 1: helpful people to help make our lives less of a
17:41
Speaker 1: hot mess, especially especially the way things are going at
17:44
Speaker 1: the moment with inflation and interest rates and all the
17:48
Speaker 1: stress in life. And we're going to put all of
17:50
Speaker 1: Amy's links in the show notes. You can find more
17:52
Speaker 1: about her there. You can also find, like I said,
17:54
Speaker 1: the hot Mess Summit on the Happy Family's website. The
17:56
Speaker 1: Happy Families Podcast, as always, is produced by Justin Roland,
17:59
Speaker 1: from which Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer and
18:02
Speaker 1: for more information about making your family happier, we'd love
18:05
Speaker 1: for you to check out that pop Miss Summit at
18:06
Speaker 1: happy families dot com dotu, or visit us at our
18:09
Speaker 1: Facebook page, Doctor Justin Colson's Happy Families