Latest / IMI Podcasts / The Mobility Standard #4 - Investment Migration Funds: Better Than Real Estate?

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The Mobility Standard #4 - Investment Migration Funds: Better Than Real Estate? · IMI Podcasts

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_03: Ladies and gentlemen, it's 7 p.m.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: in Dubai, 3 p.m.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_03: in Lisbon, 11 a.m.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_03: in St.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_03: Kitts.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to the fourth episode of Investment Migration Insider's new podcast, The Mobility Standard, the podcast where we detect current events, trends, and crucial questions related to investment migration.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Christian Ninsaim, editor of Investment Migration Insider.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_03: And with me in today's episode, I have two co-hosts, Rogelio Castres and Ahmad Abbas, as well as our guest this time, Murad Coskun of Get Golden Visa, a man who's been highly involved in the Portuguese Golden Visa fund market since the very beginning.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_03: We asked him a range of questions related to the growing popularity of investment funds in Golden Visa programs, including which investment migration programs out there beyond Portugal have a fund option?
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: Why don't any of the Caribbean CIPs have such fund investment options?
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_03: And now that Portugal has decided to raise the minimum investment for the fund category from 350,000 to half a million euros starting next year, will the funds struggle to attract investors?
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_03: In the last several years, only a double-digit number of Golden Visa investors have picked the fund option, but there are already more than 20 funds available.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_03: With such an unfavorable ratio, how can fund managers expect to raise enough capital?
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: Portugal has proven that there's an appetite for investment fund options among investor migrants, but which other programs are likely to take advantage of this market next?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_03: What are the common pitfalls of fund investment?
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_03: Which factors should you take into consideration when evaluating a fund?
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_03: And what are the tax advantages that fund investment has over, for example, real estate?
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_03: All of that and much more in today's episode.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_03: I'd like to remind you again that you can follow all of iMID stories on our website, iMyDaily.com, and on our mobile phone apps, our free newsletters, as well as on your favorite social media network.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_03: You can also follow this podcast on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and most other podcasts by form.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_03: So with the preambles out of the way, let's get this show on the road today.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_03: And uh the place where it's gone the farthest is probably Portugal.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_03: That's where the fund, RCBI fund market is the most mature, that's where you have the biggest selection of different funds to choose from.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_03: But which of the other major investment migration programs have an investment fund option?
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_03: That that's what I'd like to know.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_03: And and I guess there are two ways of looking at it.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_03: So you can have an explicit fund option, so that the program regulations explicitly offer funds as an option, but then you can also have what I would term theoretical fund options, so that that's the case where the program hypothetically could permit a fund option, but none of the private sector actors have gotten around to actually setting up any funds.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_03: And so in in practice, there are no uh fund options.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_03: So why don't you uh as far as you know, can you tell me which major RCBI programs except Portugal have explicit and hypothetical uh fund options?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: Right, right.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh actually quite a few RCBI programs have investment fund options as one of the available investment options.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: Uh having said that, like you said, some of these are up and running, while some of them are just present in theory.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Uh in practice, the programs that actually capitalize on the investment fund option include the Portuguese Golden Visa, the Immigrant Investment Program in Ireland, uh, the significant investor visa, the SIV in Australia, uh, and maybe we could include the UK Tier 1 visa within that basket as well.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: Uh now, as for the implicit ones, the ones that are just there in theory, uh, the Golden Visa program in Greece, uh, the Citizenship by Investment Program in Turkey are some of the programs that allow for investment fund options as a viable category to apply for the program.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_01: However, in practice, there are no precedents.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then there are some programs that are hybrid, uh, so to say.
• 4:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, those may require the applicant to allocate part of the investment in a local fund or a government bond.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, the investment immigration program in Montenegro, uh, the program in Malta, or the program in Bulgaria are some of the examples that uh fit this category.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_03: So uh you mentioned uh a few programs there that made me pause.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_03: The first one is Australia SIV, because there I think that fund investment is actually part of uh the mandatory investment list, right?
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_03: Isn't that correct?
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um so that at least some of your at least some of your investment must be in an investment fund in Australia under the significant investor visa program.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_03: And then the other one that you mentioned is in the UK.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_03: So for the UK tier one, how does how does that work?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I know that there are very strict or very specific types of investments that you are allowed to make under that program.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_03: How does the fund option work in that context in the UK?
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, actually, that's sort of an indirect option.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I said we may be able to include that one in the basket.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because you need to deploy the investment to a regulated uh wealth manager or a financial institution, as to say.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and they may uh be able to invest in certain qualifying funds for you.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, however, that is not a direct fund deployment at all.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_03: So you have to go through uh a financial advisor or registered investment advisor uh to do that in the UK.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and then there's Greece, of course.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_03: Now, I think it was last week when I saw the first, as far as I can remember, the first Golden Visa real estate investment fund in Greece.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_03: And I I believe that's Aretha Partners.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_03: And uh in a few weeks from today, we're gonna be talking to the founder of Aretha.
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but that is the first time I've seen any movement on that in Greece.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_03: But Greece, as I understand it, they explicitly permit it.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_03: It's just it's only now that we're starting to see the first few funds come come out of Greece.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_03: What's what's been taking Greece so long to get started with funds, considering Portugal uh already has uh uh well they're they're seasoned already, so to speak, when it when it comes to funds for their golden visa and the regulations that permitted have been in place for, I guess, almost well, in Greece they've been in place for almost as long as they've been in place in Portugal.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_03: So what's holding Greece back from opening more funds?
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's a that's a very good question.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think I would be the right person to answer that question, but I I do wonder the same thing.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: Having said that, um as you stated, uh capital contribution of at least 400,000 euros to a venture capital company or a mutual fund or an alternative investment fund in Greece qualifies you uh for the Golden Mesa since almost the beginning of the program.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh now, having said that, I think the 250,000 euro investment in real estate is number one, more affordable, obviously.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and number two, uh easier to transact on.
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_01: So uh it's uh they're not reinventing the wheel.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the developers are already quite happy uh with the kind of turnout they were getting.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now, mind you, what took them so long, I'm just thinking out loud here, but uh the the pandemic did affect the uh the market quite a bit.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Now in 2020, uh like I think it was Ahmed in the previous episode uh pointing this out, or two episodes ago, um the market dropped 90% in terms of the Golden Misa.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and the major factor behind this was people were not able to travel to Greece.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: There were travel restrictions.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_01: Now, with that, developers or uh suppliers are trying to find other solutions uh to push the golden visa in Greece, and the funds is is uh quite a good candidate for that.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_03: Just to kind of sum up the the countries that have these options, the programs that have uh investment migration fund options.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_03: So New Zealand, Australia, where it's partly explicit.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um Singapore Global Investor Program, I believe, also has that.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_03: Uh Turkish EIP permits uh funds, but but nobody's opened uh any funds for it yet, as far as we are aware.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_03: And then there's Portugal and Greece.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_03: And in the UK, you can do it, but you've got to it can't be a direct fund route.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_03: So it's gotta go, you've got to place your money with a financial advisor, and they may or not, may not uh place uh all or part of of your qualifying investment in funds.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_03: Is that correct?
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_03: I believe that summary is correct.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_01: Right, that's right.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_03: And Ireland, and Ireland, of course, Ireland IMP even.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_02: Let's not forget the US.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_02: The US has a although it's it's more it's not as uh easy to execute, there's a great firm named Atlantic American Partners here in in Florida that's been uh raising capital under a fund structure for many years and done it quite successfully.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I think they're on their 10th or 12th project.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: So they'll they'll raise capital and put it into two, maybe three real estate projects.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh they're a regional center, uh or they rent regional centers, but they're a private investment firm based here in Florida that's been I think raised over 350 million uh all in in funds.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and so that's a quite unique uh let me ask you this because regional centers do um let's say practice the same way as fund managing companies do their jobs.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_00: So what what is the actual difference between a regional center and a fund manager?
• 10:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're when it comes to somebody outside looking in, it's basically the same thing.
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_00: Is there an actual difference?
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, there very much is a difference.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_02: It it sounds like you know, maybe regional center sounds like an investment fund, but most regional centers don't operate as investment companies, aren't regulated by the SEC uh explicitly, right?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_02: They don't apply to be a broker dealer or registered investment advisor.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_02: They're private companies, then they do raise capital.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, you know, 99% uh hopefully do it compliantly.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: I know my old firm LCR capital does it compliantly, and many, many others do.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_02: But um but there aren't a level of financial sophistication in the industry, although I think greater than uh other parts of the RCBI sector, aren't yet to a stage where a fund, a truly diversified fund that can invest like the one uh Aretha does, and I'm sure the ones in Portugal do, that's not uh as available in the US because of uh uh legal requirements to predisclose the uh destination of the investment at the time of filing.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh it's quite complicated, but unfortunately, to summarize, uh even though it is uh regulated security here in the US, the level of uh sophistication financially speaking from a fund structure perspective isn't where it could be because of USCIS guidelines.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so, yes, you can have a fund, but it diversify across what two different assets, where ideally a fund would allow you to invest across multiple assets, right, to really get that diversification benefit.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: But um Yeah, I mean it's interesting because uh we're be uh sometimes the investment from immigration industry is being held back by the governments themselves, the USCIS here now in point.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I actually brings me to another point for uh Murad, because you were listing the countries that had funds, and there are some notable absentees.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, what about the Caribbean states?
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: They are they have the real estate option, the contribution option, same.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: So she has the bond option, which which isn't the same.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: But when you look at the real estate projects, let's say um, just by conjecture, a lot of them are not getting built and a lot are stalling and so on.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: Wouldn't a real uh real estate development fund or any development fund actually use that money better than the normal real estate option they have?
• 12:57
  SPEAKER_00: Would they benefit of it?
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: What would be a good price for funds in the Caribbean?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: You're right.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: I never thought about it that way, to be honest with you, but uh I'm sure a fund option uh could be an interesting gateway um uh to to enter the Caribbean and at a more reasonable price.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh I know of one project that was being cooked back in the day, uh, which was uh quite creative, really.
• 13:21
  SPEAKER_01: It it tried to combine the Portuguese Golden Lisa program uh with one of the Caribbean programs.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: And uh the way it would do that is as you know, in Portugal, the fund only needs to deploy uh 60% of its portfolio to Portugal, and the rest, 40%, can be deployed outside of Portugal.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so using that uh they were trying to make a hybrid scenario.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: It did not come live.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: Had it, I think it would be it would have been an interesting option that uh a lot of investors would would opt out for.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_03: One thing that's been pointed out to me that the someone I spoke to who is big in in the Portugal uh real estate refurbishment option market, he told me basically very bluntly that in Portugal the fund option is dead in the water, he said, because it's gonna go up to 500k next year, and that that will kind of uh make make it uncompetitive.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_03: What are you what's your answer to that, uh Murat?
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Well, um let me backtrack a little bit if you allow me, Christian, on that.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, as you know, there was a significant change made on the Portuguese Golden Lisa fund option at the end of 2018, which dropped the required minimum investment amount from half a million euros to 350,000 euros.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: The single change practically put the fund option on the map.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: In 2019, there were seven Portuguese Golden Lisa applications through the fund option that I got approved.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: Just a year later in 2020, the same number of applications through the fund option increased by almost sevenfold and reached 48.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: And in 2021, we expect it to increase way above the 2020 value.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now, it's important to point out that in 2019 there were only around four funds available on the market, and by the beginning of 2021, the number of eligible funds now exceed 20.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh this means that there are many more options to choose from today than there were a year and a half ago.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yes, the upcoming rule change at the end of this year contributes to the popularity of the pop uh the option, but it's just part of the story.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh some of the other major contributors include it include the pandemic and thus the travel restrictions, like Ahmed was referring to for Greece uh a week or two weeks ago.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um investors are no longer able to fly in and out of Europe as easily.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: Real estate is a tangible asset, so people want to visit the asset, see it, touch it, get a feel for it.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas a fund is much more of an exile decision.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: You rarely feel the urge to go and visit the fund portfolio in person.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: A simple Zoom call with the fund managers will get your questions answered.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: Uh also also, I think it was uh David Lesperens or uh Rogelio mentioning this uh in the third episode.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: Uh as of 2020, the concept of investment immigration appeared on the radar for Americans.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_01: Uh now, while many Middle Eastern and Asian clients are big fans of tangible assets, Americans are much more used to financial instruments such as venture capital funds, private equity funds, and such.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh so this option for the Portuguese Golden Music came as a second nature for the US clients.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: Additionally, there is the tax efficiency, the easier and hassle-free subscription process compared to other options, and the possibility of diversification.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: All these factors helped increase the popularity of the fund option.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: But now with the minimum investment amount jumping from 350,000 to 500,000 euros, what will happen?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_01: A couple of things will happen.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Firstly, we're sure going to have a very busy 2021.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Secondly, with the increase of the minimum investment amount, there will possibly be a sudden drop in the demand by the beginning of 2022.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_01: But there will still be a demand as the factors that we just listed will still be valid.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_01: Mind you, prior to 2018 changes, the fund option was set at a minimum of 500,000 euro investment.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_01: There were applications back then.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: With the geographical restrictions on the real estate option, there will be possibly more applications, prospective applicants, ready to opt in for the fund option, even when the threshold increases.
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's important to point out that the changes will leave some of these newcoming funds quite exposed.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: Some of those will have a tough time in terms of fundraising, and maybe we'll some we'll see some of them drop out of the race completely.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: This means that we should vet the funds well enough when investing today so that we're not left with a dying fund come 2022.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um but overall, the Portuguese Golden Visa program has an attractive value proposition, as is.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Once the changes come into effect, other European countries will certainly rush in to create alternative programs to take advantage of the gap that is created with the change of the current Portugal Golden Visa program.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm just looking at the statistics right now for um the Golden Visa in Portugal and how many people are actually investing in the fund option.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_03: So as you pointed out, in the first applications came through in 2019, where there were seven investors, seven main applicants who opted for the fund route in Portugal.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_03: Then that number uh expanded massively to 48 in 2020.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_03: And after the first three months alone of uh of 2021, we're already at 18 for that.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_03: But so let's say that so let's say let's call that 20, and then 20 times four, because this is for the first quarter alone.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_03: So uh that would be uh 80, and let's say it expands you know throughout the year, the interest in it increases because people know that the price is going up next year, but that still only brings us to what 100 maximum 150.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_03: If you have 20 funds in Portugal um that are vying for the attention of uh 100, 150 uh potential applicants who want to do funds, I mean, how do you uh how do you square that circle?
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean one thing about the Ceph statistics can be a bit misleading.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's important to point that out, really, because they come with a lab.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: Now, we we alone had close to all of those 48 clients last year that went for the fund option.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but they're waiting for their Ceph dates.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: The the the Ceph dates unfortunately are coming 10 months, 12 months after the application is being submitted right now.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why we're going to see an exponential growth in those because a lot of people that already invested in the funds are still waiting to get their golden visa, and they only appear in the Ceph statistics once they get their golden visa.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even with that, what you're asking is a valid question.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and that's why we should really be careful in vetting the funds that uh we're going for.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um because some of these funds uh are going to have a tough time fundraising after the change.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_03: You say, okay, you've got to vet a fund.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: All right.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: So you're an investor in Saudi Arabia and you're looking at 20 different funds in Portugal and you want to vet them.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_03: What are the things you want to look at?
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_03: So beta mode subscription is gonna be pretty much the same for all of them, right?
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's 350.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_03: And then you look at a management fee, uh which is what somewhere between three and four percent typically.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_03: Um 2%, okay.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_03: And then uh you look at okay, what sectors are they focusing on?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_03: Most of the ones I'm aware of in Portugal are are focused on real estate.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_03: And and I think you know it's it's a little bit ironic because the whole point of having that option is to I mean, the the reason they're promoting it is because you you want people to not just focus on real estate because real estate is politically a little bit unpalatable, because then you know, newspapers like The Guardian, for example, will no doubt point out that oh, here you have all these rich foreigners coming in and pushing up property prices, making it unaffordable.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_03: For the locals.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_03: So I think the part of the idea of having funds is that look, let's not get all this foreign money into real estate because that's hard to defend politically.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_03: So let's, you know, let's invest in fintech startups or whatever.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_03: But in the end, investors still, you know, they understand real estate.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_03: And if a fund is investing in a diversified portfolio of real estate assets, it does make them more comfortable.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_03: So you look at, yeah, you look at the subscription, the management fee, uh, what sectors, you look at the fund manager's track record, what are the other things that you need to consider?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Those are all great points to look at for sure.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, first and foremost, uh, we should look at what the fund focuses on.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_01: What business sectors or what type of assets or what kind of an investment strategy?
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: Is there a geographical restriction or a diversification?
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Is the fund going for startups in, I don't know, healthcare?
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, is it going for real estate?
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_01: If real estate, is it going for Portugal or other places?
• 23:04
  SPEAKER_01: Is it yielding commercial assets that it's focusing on?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: Is it residential assets in development phase that it's focusing on?
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: So it's important to lay out the investment philosophy and foundations pretty clearly.
• 23:17
  SPEAKER_01: Once we have a good idea of that, who are the fund managers?
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_01: Who are they and what their track record is?
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: And if there is any developer or investment company behind the fund, it's very important to check out who they are and what their track record is as well.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Also at this stage, um, you should pay close attention to conflicts of interest.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: Is the real estate development company merely using the fund as a vehicle to sell its overpriced real estate properties?
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_01: Or are they really in the business of making the best decision uh out for their investment, investors?
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_03: So the scenario that you're describing there with the conflict of interest, what we're essentially talking about is a developer that says, okay, we built all this real estate, uh, now we gotta sell it, and we see that funds are a rising trend.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_03: So let's just set up a fund and collect investment, so not direct investment in real estate, but investment in a fund.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: But we're gonna use the money in that fund to invest in our own real estate.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_03: How do you guard yourself against that as an investor?
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, that's a good question.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: First of all, is the developer and the fund manager honest about this?
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: Are they openly uh disclosing the fact that they're mainly going after their own assets?
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_01: If so, why?
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: How does that fit into their investment strategy?
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_01: And are we, and by we I mean the fund, purchasing these assets at a fair market value?
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: How are we being assured of that?
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_01: What most of these players are gonna say is that, well, a third-party evaluator is gonna come in, assess the property, and that's how we're gonna purchase it.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, but um I would want to hear something more than that, really, you know, uh, because the evaluators, uh, we all know, I mean, it's not always, you know, uh clean-cut professionals that really know the market and whatnot.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: I would want to see uh a further step validifying that this is really the best uh property to invest for my money's interest.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um so transparency uh and uh some sort of an assurance that they're gonna give me would be the answer there, Christian.
• 25:24
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if uh if I can build on this because well uh I come from one of the most uh skeptical uh uh nationalities in the world.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Arab clients, for example, just scrutinize everything we put in their faces.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: They make everything much harder than it used to be.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_00: I tried to sell my uncle uh some investment immigration to Canada, and that went absolutely horribly.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh but uh when it comes to funds, uh the problem I've had personally with this is when you're talking to an investor and they they know what real estate is, they understand real estate, they've done it a ton of times beforehand.
• 26:03
  SPEAKER_00: You go into funds, something not so common in the MENA region.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: And they're talking, first of all, the first question they're asking you is what if the project doesn't pan out?
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: So you go into the funds that have collateral and uh the ones who have an extra year or two to get paid back and so on.
• 26:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then they go a step further.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, what if the fund management company bankrupts?
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: It is at risk.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: At the end of the day, it's not a tangible asset like the real estate.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: What do you think is a good counter to that?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: What can people talk to investors with?
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Give them a little more peace of mind.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh well, Ahmed, to be honest with you, I'm I'm from Turkey myself, so I'm also a skeptic by nature.
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_03: Uh and uh I have you also tried to have you also tried to sell invest migration projects to your uncle?
• 26:54
  SPEAKER_00: No, interesting thing is you might work with the lawyer in Canada that's just another one.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Well, uh to be honest with you, uh I'm a big fan of tangible assets.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: I like to sleep well at night.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_01: Uh having said that, in terms of the funds, um it does give me some sort of a uh an assurance that uh if the fund is some sort of a asset-backed fund, meaning these are not real estate funds, by the way, mind you, uh they're real estate funds in uh dressed in the clothes of a uh fundo do capital do risco, meaning risk capital fund, which is eligible for the Portugal Golden Visa.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but ultimately when you move back into it, what they do is they set up a fund and then they purchase a bunch of real estate through the users of SPVs, through the users of uh company vehicles.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um so ultimately, these some of these are asset-packed funds.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if the fund comes to me and says that they're investing in a bunch of startups in Portugal, yes, that's very sexy, that's very interesting and whatnot, I maybe want a part of that, but I don't want my money to go to literally zero, which it may.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_01: So with real estate funds, I know that even if it burns out to the ground, there's a certain value to the land over there.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I feel more protected as opposed to um to uh to non-real estate related funds, really, uhhmed.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: But in each scenario, uh I could not stress enough the importance of uh certainly meeting up with the fund managers and grilling them to the uh teeniest, tiniest detail of the fund.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_02: And now a word from our sponsors.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_02: Hi, my name is Rogelio Castanes, and I'm the CEO and founder of the Global Residency and Citizenship Group.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: Headquartered here in Miami, Florida.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: We're the only U.S.-based investment firm that provides a globally diversified platform of mobility assets acquired through venture capital, real estate, and private equity investments here in the United States, as well as at over 20 destinations around the world, including Canada, the Caribbean, Europe, Australia, and New Zealand.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_03: You say that uh these uh you know start the funds that invest in startups and health tech and that kind of thing, that you say that, yeah, that's sexy uh and it's not so conservative.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_03: Of course, it's yes, it is sexy, but I think it's primarily sexy to the governments, right?
• 29:31
  SPEAKER_03: Because governments like to say that, look, we are attracting uh these uh whiz kids that otherwise would have got to Silicon Valley.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_03: Now they're coming to central Portugal instead, right?
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know if that's the case, but that's kind of the way they like to that's that's how they like to spin it.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_03: So it's sexy to governments, but it's not so sexy to the Middle Eastern investors necessarily, right?
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_03: For them, it's like they get really turned on when their capital is and preserved in some place like putting it.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: You're right.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, majority of the clients still.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but we did have uh a bunch of clients that just did not want to even assess the real estate related funds, but wanted to go for the, I don't know, healthcare funds, wanted to go for the startup funds.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: So each fund has its own uh client, I guess.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, every investor is created different.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um having said that, uh the the majority amount of clients are more conservative, so they're feeling safer with the real estate.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_02: And how do how do investors compare and contrast the performance of these 20 funds?
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: Is there uh an obligation to report that on a quarterly basis?
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_02: Is there a a firm that does consolidates uh uh the track record of all 20 and so that investors can look at it and say, oh, this is a these top are the top five or and and how do you measure right performance?
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: Is the basic measurement should should be do the investors get their Portugal Portugal visas?
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_02: But then after that it can be uh capital return or appreciation of capital.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_02: How do you guys think of uh you know the criteria upon which uh funds are measured?
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, uh that's a very good question, Rohelio.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and that would tie me back into how we would vet the funds.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: Uh let me uh get back into that and I can uh I can elaborate on your question.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um so, in terms of vetting the funds, what did we say?
• 31:28
  SPEAKER_01: We say we would look at the what the fund focuses on mainly, and then who the fund managers are, if there is a developer or an investment company behind it, who those are.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and then uh to go down the list, well, uh Christian, you you said that uh the minimum subscription amount is 350.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_01: No, not necessarily.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_01: Actually, in most of the funds, it's much lower than that.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: And that's an important aspect to look at.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because it's particularly important if you want to opt for a diversification strategy, which many of our clients these days do.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, what do I mean by that?
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_01: If you want to invest your 350,000 euro in more than one fund, the program allows you to do that.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: But you need to make sure that the fund accepts smaller partitions than 350,000 euros at a time to allow you to invest only a portion of your money in that particular fund.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: So as an investor, I would be able to say, okay, here are the three funds I really like, and I would like to basically diversify my risk and invest in all of them.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_01: A total of 350,000 euros.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna put 100,000 in one, a hundred thousand in another one, and a hundred thousand and fifty in another one.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: So uh if the minimum investment amount that the fund allows me, allows me to put that 100,000, then we're good to go.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: That's why we should look at the minimum uh subscription amount of the fund.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and you should also ask what the target IRR is, what's the total raised amount so far, if the fund is attracting only Golden Visa investors or also other private or institutional investors, uh, who the fund audit company is, what the fees are, the yearly management fee, the performance fee at the end, if there is a subscription fee, what is it?
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and of course the payout.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_01: Are they paying any yearly dividends?
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_01: Or uh what are those dividends based on?
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and at the exit, what are they paying us?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_01: Now, uh part of this uh brings me back to Rohelio's question.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, how do I uh compare between these funds, their performances?
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_01: What do I look at?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, uh for sure there are the the essentials.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_01: Are they regulated by CMDM?
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: Are they a proper fund?
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Who's the company behind them, the track record?
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: But how about the performance?
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_01: Now the uh the problem is most of these fun funds basically started popping up within the last year or year and a half.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: So with that, not many of them have a track record to show us uh to tell us that, okay, the last couple of years I've been bringing this kind of a dividend, and the portfolio that I invested in grew by this much in capital appreciation, blah, blah, blah.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_01: So we basically need to uh put a loop on uh get these uh fund managers or these development or investment companies under the loop, see what they have done previously, and let that give us some sort of a breadcrumb as to what their future performance will be.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_03: I have one question I wanted to direct to um Rogelio based on something that you said earlier, Murat, that um as we've discussed on numerous occasions, I believe we probably discussed it every episode of this podcast.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_03: Uh the big, big trend of 2020 is the rise of Americans.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_03: And you posited in your introduction there um initially, Murat, that one of the one of the reasons that the popularity of the funded investment option in Portugal has increased in 2020 is that it's coincided with a a rise in American investors.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_03: And you hinted, although you didn't explicitly say it, but you hinted that the American investors are a little bit more sophisticated than they are used to financial instruments and to evaluating financial instruments.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm wondering if if if Rogelio uh does does this um does that statement from Murat that that Americans are more comfortable with uh evaluating financial uh instruments, does that correspond to your impression of uh American demand for these type of products?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, do you think that they are more open than, say, an Indian or a Brazilian to investing in a fund than real estate?
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's hard to make those type of generalizations because in all my travels to India and Brazil, they're extremely sophisticated investors and very detail-oriented.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I don't think there's any investor at the at the high-end level that we work in globally that's uh that's not sophisticated.
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_03: Although they're all sorry, sorry, and I don't I don't mean to say that uh Murad is indicating that people uh that investors in other parts of the world are not sophisticated.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_03: What I mean is that because financial markets in the United States are much more mature, have been around for a much longer time than in a lot of, for example, in China, I mean uh probably two day, I mean, it's probably just a two-decade history of fund investment in China, for example, right?
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_03: There's there's just no history for it.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_03: And not just in the RCBI, but in general.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_03: And so that that that history, the background, the the depth of the experience uh among American high net worth individuals for investing in funds, on average, of course, there, I mean, I'm just talking average, I'm just generalizing it.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, right.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_03: So what what do you think about that?
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: No, I get you.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_02: It's not uh a sophistication argument, it's uh you know uh use or experience level or familiarity with uh argument and preferences, and and you're right.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_02: Uh there are preferences certainly in these markets that are more real estate focused.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_02: Uh my experience is primarily in the EB5 sector, and like we talked about, uh funds aren't prevalent in that in that uh domain.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_02: But Americans, to your question, uh are they familiar, are they comfortable?
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 37:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and are there you know theoretical benefits?
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, right?
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_02: Uh it's hard to argue Finance 101 that a portfolio of investments tends to you know diversify risk away from just uh what's that classic phrase?
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_02: Don't put all your eggs in one basket, right?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_02: That's uh that's not a finance phrase, I don't think, but it certainly uh rings true and is true.
• 38:05
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and so I don't I don't see why Americans would not prefer, in fact, uh a fund structure, especially if it's a fund that uh is intends to generate rates of return uh over and beyond just the the immigration benefit.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_02: Uh and I I believe in in Portugal that is the objective of most of these funds, right?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's not so much to protect the downside, but to generate alpha, to generate high rates of return.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: Is that correct, uh?
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_03: So so I would say, of course, uh there are a number of advantages to funds uh over real estate.
• 38:42
  SPEAKER_03: So, number one, uh you don't need to be actively managing your own asset, right?
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_03: You're just uh basically leaving the management of your assets to someone else.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you have a clear exit, predictable exit.
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_03: Uh you have uh a clear um idea of what type of return you should be expecting.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_03: But then one of the things that's not talked about so often, but which can make a big difference on the bottom line for Golden Visa investors are the tax advantages that the fund options have over real estate.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm wondering, Murad, if you might summarize some of the some of the tax strengths uh that fund options have relative to investment in real estate.
• 39:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, in terms of taxation, I mean it should be noted that uh income arising from uh investments in Portuguese venture capital funds, uh both in the form of dividends or capital gains by any individual that is not tax domiciled in Portugal uh and that is also not tax domiciled in any blacklisted jurisdiction, is exempted from taxation in Portugal.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_01: Basically, if I'm not a tax resident in Portugal, and if I invest in a fund in Portugal, the dividend and the capital gains I'm gonna get out of that fund is gonna be exempt from taxes in Portugal.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh uh whereas in real estate, for instance, real estate rental income, uh, even if I'm not a tax resident in Portugal, I'm gonna be taxed 28% uh on that real estate uh rental income.
• 40:19
  SPEAKER_01: Secondly, the acquisition costs are higher in real estate, um, whereas uh, well, mainly in regards to taxes, uh, whereas funds, you do not have that.
• 40:30
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and uh there's possibly little to no uh capital gains tax for the funds in Portugal.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh on that note, let's move on to the disadvantages.
• 40:40
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yes, uh easy entry is an advantage in terms of the funds, but not necessarily the exit.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_01: Technically, maybe so, but in practice, the investor typically ends up waiting until the fund maturity to be able to exit the fund.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_01: That means a lockup period uh for the capital for five, but more realistically, seven years.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh lastly, at the end of the day, these are risk capital funds.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a certain amount of risk associated with them.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_01: The funds do not and cannot guarantee the invested capital uh nor a stable dividend.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Well, if I can address one of the disadvantages you're talking about, which is the exit strategy and compare it to that of the real estate, uh especially to the 280 and 350 options Christian uh mentioned, which are notoriously difficult to resell if you're just an investor with uh property in Portugal.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: And the thing is, we've seen in Portugal now that they've changed um uh the locations where you can buy golden visa eligible property.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: In Turkey, we saw that uh property bought for citizenship by investment cannot be recycled for citizenship by investment.
• 41:52
  SPEAKER_00: So that's especially for the free 280 and 350, it's taking a huge chunk of potential buyers out of the equation.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, uh I think two more years, but getting all your money back is easier than waiting 10, 15 years to sell your property or even sell it at a loss.
• 42:11
  SPEAKER_00: Or I think the exit strategy of the fund option is underappreciated because the uncertainty in changes in RCBI programs is especially in the last decade, we've seen programs shift extremely fast, and the EU is putting more and more pressure on them.
• 42:31
  SPEAKER_00: The fund, in the end, it's a financial practice which has its let's say one, two, three, four, five stages, and it won't be as affected by any changes in the RCBI program as real estate bill.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because you'll have a lot of people now buying 280 real estate in Lisbon and they have to sell it in five years.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: To whom are they gonna sell it?
• 42:54
  SPEAKER_00: To who how are they gonna get their money back?
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's one of the beauties of the fund option in Portugal.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's uh an advantage, but uh not the best one possible.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_00: But I won't go as far as calling it a disadvantage.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the look-up maybe is a disadvantage, Ahmed, but I do agree with you that uh uh the exit is easier than some of the 280 particularly uh projects compared.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: Uh the 350 ones are still, they can be located in Lisbon or Porto.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_01: So there is somewhat of a liquidity in the market for the real estate.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_01: But if you go to low density population areas, it can be a bit problematic.
• 43:33
  SPEAKER_02: What type of trends are you finding in terms of the American interest that's coming in for uh fun options in Portugal?
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: Any uh characteristics you'd like to share in terms of uh uh common themes that you're seeing or there's actually a few different baskets uh in terms of the Americans that are coming in uh that we can cluster.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_01: Of course, there are outliers, but uh if we're talking about The common themes, we do see a lot of people that are intending to retire in Europe, and Portugal is an ideal destination for that.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_01: So they come in, they invest in a fund, they get their Portugal Goldamusa.
• 44:11
  SPEAKER_01: In a couple of years, they plan to move over there, find themselves a nice rental place, or a place that they're gonna buy, uh, preferably by the sea.
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_01: So this is one cluster that we really see uh back and back.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then uh there is the more nomadic lifestyle uh driven Americans.
• 44:31
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they basically want to have a base in Portugal in Europe, uh, and uh Portugal uh allows them to have this, uh, both with the Portugal Golden Visa program or with the D7 program if they're ready to move right away.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and thirdly, we also see a lot of people from uh Silicon Valley, really.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, from the startup scene.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and uh that crowd is uh how can I put it?
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: They they they do have a much looser definition of risk appetite.
• 45:00
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, they they uh they like to go for the funds that are uh going for the startups or for the biotech companies and uh what have you.
• 45:10
  SPEAKER_03: The market, the golden visa market in Portugal, I think, over the last year, year and a half, has demonstrated quite clearly that there definitely is an appetite among investor migrants for the fund investment option.
• 45:25
  SPEAKER_03: And and Portugal was sort of one of the first test cases for that, because where where the fund investment um element existed in other programs, like we mentioned in Australia and uh New Zealand, they've they've they've been um mandatory, so it's not like the investor could opt out of it.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_03: And in the UK, uh, well, it wasn't really that much up to the investor in any case.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_03: It was the the person who was handling their money who decided whether or not to go into a fund.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_03: So for that reason, I see um the Portuguese realtuguese fund investment option as sort of the pilot program for this, and I think we can we can say that it's the uptake has been tremendous and it's it's been a success, and that demonstrates that there is appetite out there for this type of product.
• 46:16
  SPEAKER_03: You've been heavily involved in in the fund investment part of the golden visa in Portugal.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_03: Where do you see which which golden visa programs or citizenship investment programs do you see as the the next frontiers for a fund investment option?
• 46:37
  SPEAKER_03: Where is it that you would consider it most likely or most natural for for this trend to emerge next?
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_03: And what other programs?
• 46:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good question, really.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, uh with the rules as they are currently, uh I don't think there's as attractive an offer in the market yet.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm I'm almost certain that we're going to see some players, some countries set up step up uh in the coming months or maybe in 2022 to uh get a piece of the pie.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, Portugal did cling on to a very nice demand, and uh while they're the pioneers, uh it's I mean, I'm in no place to judge, but they're shooting themselves in the foot by uh changing the program, changing the fund option.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: And they're gonna get they're gonna give leeway uh to other countries to step in.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: Now, some of the ones that can mend their uh residency program or citizenship program and get a piece of the pie are uh I think Greece is certainly a nice candidate for this.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_01: Uh but uh the value proposition of Greece is uh not up there when compared to Portugal, particularly because of the uh pathway to citizenship or lack thereof.
• 47:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um but uh if they if they somehow uh fine-tune that, I think they can get a nice piece of the pie because we're gonna see a lot of demand uh push into Greece uh with the change of the government over there, with which attack is taking all the right steps.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, so in in Greece, the problem is that there the buy-in is 400,000, right?
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, which is only 50,000 above what it is in Portugal and 100,000 below what it will be in Portugal come next year.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_03: But you can't compare it to Portugal so much as you have to compare it to the real estate option in Greece, right?
• 48:33
  SPEAKER_03: So do you think that the you know, from the point of view of the of the Mitsutakis administration, which has been you know admirably swift in adapting their golden visa to to make it more attractive for investors, it's been you know that they've been generally a very business-friendly government so far, uh, at least compared to what we're used to from governments of Greece.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_03: Um do you think that there is any appetite among the Mitchell Takis uh cabinet for maybe reducing that 400,000 level, maybe bring it down to 250 in line with the real estate?
• 49:10
  SPEAKER_03: And and if not, I mean, why is it that they set the bar, the investment bar higher uh for funds uh compared to real estate?
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_03: Do they think that, do they consider real estate investment, so direct real estate investment, do they consider that uh inherently more attractive for the economy of Greece somehow than the funds?
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_03: Or what's what do you think is the thinking behind that and and are they open to changing that?
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, I mean the the if I'm not wrong, the Greece Cold Amuse Program started in 2013.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_01: Now, if we rewind back a little bit and look into 2013, Greece uh was not in the best of positions uh economically speaking, and the the the most blatant area where this appeared was their real estate market.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: So at that point, uh attracting attracting foreign direct investment into the real estate market to have it bounce back, have it readjust itself uh was really essential.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_01: But today that is no longer the case.
• 50:15
  SPEAKER_01: Right now uh they are in a position to bounce back in terms of their real estate market, and I think they're going to do so right after this COVID drama is over.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_01: Uh and in terms of the funds, I think Portugal was leading the way, like you said.
• 50:29
  SPEAKER_01: Uh nobody had awakened the giant, but the giant is now waking up, so a lot of countries are going to reassess their programs.
• 50:37
  SPEAKER_03: That's it for today, folks.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_03: But we'll be back soon with another episode of the Mobility Standard.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_03: In the meantime, I encourage you, the listener, to send us the questions that you have about investment migration.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_03: If we're able to answer them, we'll do so during our next episode.
• 50:52
  SPEAKER_03: I want to thank my co-host, the inevitable Ahmad Abbas and the illustrious Aurelio Casares, and remind you to follow our work on imidaily.com, the world's number one publication for investment migration, owned to the internet's greatest collection of investment migration data, real estate, expert opinion, and the intelligence that you need to be a successful investment migration professional.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for listening.