Latest / Mythmakers / The War of the Rohirrim: Our Verdict

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The War of the Rohirrim: Our Verdict · Mythmakers

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Hello and welcome to MythMakers. MythMakers is the podcast for fantasy fans and fantasy
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creatives brought to you by the Oxford Centre for fantasy. My name is Julia Golding and
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today I am joined by my frequent podcast partner, Jacob Renekker, who is sitting over in
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Seattle and I'm sitting over in Oxfordshire and what has brought us together across the Atlantic
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today is we are going to give our review of the War of the Heroine, the latest of the Lord of the
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Rings films coming out of the powerhouse that is New Zealand. So I'm sure everybody's caught up
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with this film by now or at least knows it, it's out. It's an anime style film, so not live action,
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it's directed by Kenji Kamiyama, who is a Japanese director, who's known for his anime films.
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The script has a number of people involved, we've got Jeffrey Aldis, Will Matthews,
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and then closer to the Lord of the Rings people is Phoebe Gittins and Arti Papajorju,
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who are the daughter and son-in-law of Philippa Boyens, who many of you will know was part of
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the script writing team on the trilogy of Lord of the Rings. In the producer credits, we've got Peter
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Jackson as an executive producer, but I think the main hand on the tiller of this was Philippa Boyens.
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And at the voice actors, just to give you a sense of who's who we've got Brian Cox
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well-known for his part in succession, and who he plays Helm Hammerhand, and the other main person
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is Gaya Wise, who plays Hira, who is the main character in this story, who also happens to be
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Emma Thompson's daughter. I don't know if you knew that, Jacob. You look like a younger Emma Thompson,
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and that's why. Anyway, so before we get into the nitty-gritty of our response to this film,
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let's go with what our star rating is. What did we feel about this production? It hasn't met with
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huge props office success. I must put that out there. What did you feel watching it?
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I enjoyed it. I thought it was a fun kind of standalone, standalone, as you can get in
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Tolkien's Legendarium, an interconnected, thickly woven web of characters and events,
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but as an independent piece of storytelling kind of drawn from Tolkien's works, I thought I
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enjoyed it. I didn't love it. It's not one that I'll probably rewatching anytime soon, but
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canvas is the first watch through. I was entertained. I was surprised. I was pleasantly surprised
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in several places, and I don't know, not bothered necessarily, but just kind of there are
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a few, there's some places that kind of trip me up a bit from a viewing perspective, but overall,
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I'm glad I saw it, and I was happy that folks were willing to take a risk in adapting Tolkien in
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this sort of format for a new generation of audiences. Okay, thank you. So you said something
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which I've written down here is I wanted to love it. I really really wanted to love it. I don't
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love it. I like parts of it, which we will unpack. There are some things which I thought were
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absolutely smashing, but I had several really big problems which I couldn't overcome.
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So I enjoyed my evening that I spent watching it and watched it from my husband's birthday,
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it was like a family viewing thing. We all, nobody got up and started working on their phones,
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you know, there was no, we didn't lose concentration. So that worked that pretty well as a viewing
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experience, but we also then unpicked it afterwards. You know, we weren't satisfied with some of the
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choices which were made. So I would say I'm on the 2.5 to star out of five type. I'm on that
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kind of rating for it. Anyway, let's go and find out what worked and what didn't. So we're going
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to take this from the big picture of the story and we're going to drop down through the screenplay,
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the animation, the voice acting and the music in that order. So the story, Jacob and Jordan tell
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people if they don't know what this is based on. Right, so this is based off of East Geth of
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sorts from your appendices and if you're reading Lord of the Rings in three separate volumes,
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it's in the return of the King volume at the very end as an end matter, again, as a way
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to kind of let Tolkien put in a little bit more information. Right, originally he wanted to
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put in, he wanted to publish the Silmarillion alongside of the Lord of the Rings together
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and standing on when we're not willing to go that far. But they did end up deciding to include
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some extra matter after a success of Fellowship of the Ring. They decided that they would be willing
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to put in a little bit of extra additional information about the broader world that Tolkien
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put was necessary to fully understand what's happening in Lord of the Rings. And so that's
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included in the appendacy, the appendix A has information about a number of different periods
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of history that impact the story of Lord of the Rings, one of which is this that's impacting
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the Rohan, the storyline. And that's where you'll find this is somewhere buried within
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appendix A of your copies of Lord of the Rings. Yeah, and it isn't hard to find, it's,
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well, it is hard to find, but once you find it, it's not hard to read because it's only about
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two and a half pages if that half, in fact. So it won't take you long to read and you'll see that
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what the animators have taken is within that section just a small part of it.
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And they've expounded upon one intriguing storyline that comes out of that section.
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And the Rohan culture stands out in that it's a very young culture we're used to talking in
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terms of Tolkien about the Elven cultures who have these sort of centuries and centuries of
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ages of history, but Rohan is like the new kid on the block. But to them, they feel old,
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that their culture is already old. So it's interesting, I like that different perspectives
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of different cultures. All that is great fun. And that's one of the richness of Tolkien. So
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in terms of the Rohan perspective on this in the story, the voiceover is given by Miranda Otto
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who is Airwin in the Lord of the Rings films. So it is a kind of back in the midst of time.
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This is the story of the Sheldmaiden, which of course is the basis of her character,
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she refers to herself being a Sheldmaiden. So they've lovely, it's a lovely fact to choose that
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and pick that point up because it's not in the Tolkien sketch. The daughter of Helm isn't even named
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and she's certainly not called a Sheldmaiden. So this is an invention which is fitting within
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the world that they've put into the story. So do you want to sort of sketch out the line of the
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story that they've taken from the Rohan culture without too many plot spoilers?
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So conflict between, so this is Rohan is kind of a confederacy of different, almost like tribal
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units that are kind of unified under a head. And that is Helm Hammerhand, who's our
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kind of main character at the very beginning of the story that this really hangs on,
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and the appendices, it's really Helm Hammerhand and how what his legacy is setting up,
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moving from the first line of kings of Rohan to then are kind of following the second line of kings.
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So Helm Hammerhand leading a confederation of horse lords, I guess if you want to call them
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different domains and conflict with one of them that leads to kind of a all-out battle between
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Helm and his and those who were allying themselves with him. And Freca, who's the head of the other
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the other house and his group that was following him, Helm ends up having to escape to the Hornberg
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and pull up with his people and if while they are then siege during a terrible winter.
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And the story then kind of follows you with the story of the siege and then how the siege lifts
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and resolves with how Rohan is settled in the aftermath of this large and long-gated
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battle that took a toll on both sides really.
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For those of you who are ticking off your writer points, there is an important inciting incident
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at the beginning, which is in the Tolkien version of this, which is, Freca comes to ask for
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a hero who is how they decided to name Helm's daughter. Here is Handy marriage for his son Wolf.
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And Helm takes this as an insult because Freca and his chaps are from the sort of wilder edges,
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the dumb landings, the wild men. If you're thinking of the Lord of the Rings films, there's a
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I think it's possibly only in the extended edition. But anyway, there's a sense of these wild men
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are allying with Saddleman in that and attacking Rohan. So it's a age-old conflict that keeps
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bubbling up. But at this point, Freca is kind of extending a potential olive branch, but Helm thinks
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he's wanting to take the throne, doesn't trust the olive branch, so they go outside and have a
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scrap. And Helm bashes Freca dies. And that means that Wolf the son is
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offed out for revenge and is poisoned really. His whole mind and mind set is poisoned by
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his desire for revenge. So it drives him into sort of Jacobi and revenge tragedy extremes
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of wanting to stamp out Helm's children, get his revenge on Hera, and so on. So that's the
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inciting incident at the beginning. Okay, so we have a story here which has revenge. It has a heroic
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woman arising to the top of her leading her nation after everyone else has been killed.
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I would say that just on the level of story, while it is great to see a female centric
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story in the Tolkien world and her after that, I mean that's one of the best things about this film
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is that. I did like to see the idea of picking up on the shield maiden. Hira is accompanied by her
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sort of serving lady, Oldwind, who then transpires is a shield maiden. It's played by the other
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fine actress, Nareen Ashborn, who British people all know from TV over here. It was bugging me
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who she was and then I saw her picture. I thought, oh yeah, I know exactly who you are.
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Great character actor over here. That is for me the guts of this film and why I liked it.
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It's a powerful story and I feel the tone of it is very much picked up in the rather underused
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song, which I think appears in the trailers, but isn't much used in the film itself. The Paris
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Paloma, the rider, which I would encourage you to go and listen to on Spotify, very moving song.
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And I think that's what they were going for. The words that song are brilliant, the feel of it is
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just right, but they didn't quite carry off in the actual execution of the film for several reasons.
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So let's drop down to the level of the screenplay. What did you feel about the way they were doing
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the script? Did that work for you? Yeah, that's a good question. I think so having as a framing,
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kind of a script framing, story framing element, having A.O.N. as your narrator,
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that was good. It seemed like a natural fit given that this culture, the Rohan culture,
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is kind of based on old English culture and with that, the tradition of oral storytelling.
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And so this is the frame that this is stories that are told around the fire and A.O.N.
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is essentially telling this story to an imagined audience in Rohan Gondor,
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who knows where we're never told. This is one of my problems with it. So Jacob, you're saying that,
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and I agree with you, and I'm saying yes, yes, oral storytelling. But was it ever established
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that this was Airwyn? She doesn't say that she's Airwyn. Did I miss a link?
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Link, you know, where? No, no, not at all. No, I think they're depending upon your familiarity
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with the voice or like the preliminary material press releases, that this is who's doing that,
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and then waiting to the end to see, oh, A.O.N. Miranda Otto is doing this. But she didn't say,
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she never says, I am A.O.N. Because what I want you to do. Right at the end, is I wanted it to move
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to, obviously, they'd have to stay in an Airwyn as anime character. But I'd love to have seen
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an anime Airwyn standing in front of the barrow for her hero or some sort of banner.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. With some little chap or chap-esque, probably he's her daughter, maybe.
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Then you can have Firemy come in and stand outside. We would have all absolutely
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melted that point. If that had happened, but they left it with this narrator who isn't established,
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we don't know who she is in terms of this. Right. And she's doing the classic
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telling and not showing thing, which is fine in oral storytelling, but it is all the way through.
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Through, right. Yeah, she pops up every so often. It wasn't just at the beginning,
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it's getting a prologue and then an epilogue at the end, but every so often. And that was what
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was part of the, the interesting is how they employed the use of voiceover by the narrator,
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which can be used to great effect, depending on how you're using it. But you're right, that that's,
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it wasn't tied through the script to A.O.N. specifically and what the story has said,
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and that would have been, that would have been something that created a nice kind of tie-in,
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natural tie-in. And like you said, I really like your idea of having, you know, if this A.O.N.'s
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daughter cheating your past in the song, because at the very beginning, she says,
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you know, by her hand, many great deeds were done talking about Heather, but do not look for her
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tail in the old songs there are none. Right. So this is this like secret kind of, it's kind of
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orally passed down among women or other folks. Yeah. And this is like almost an oral, only
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or parallel tradition that's being preserved. And then to say that she A.O.N. as somebody who's
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kind of from this line, who is kind of butted up against this larger kind of patriarchal culture
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of Rohan. And now she's passing on this wisdom, this heroism to her daughter. That really would have
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been a really nice touching kind of exclamation point on the end. This is their hope and there's
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hope in the following generation as well. Yeah, there would have been a cheer. I'm sure there
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would have been a cheer and there would have been the possibility for, okay, so what does that
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also do? You know, if they want to expand the talking universe, yeah, okay. So that's the voice
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over. The actual going to what they're, how they're talking, I think that actually the script is
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quite secure, that they're talking in an appropriately convincing way. I never get thrown out of the
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world by the way they're addressing each other. And there's some wonderful moments which kind of
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rise to talking, feeling language like Helm doing his, they're quite good at Rohan kings about
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going to battle. You know, paint in the dawn red with the blood of our foes. Does Phil kind of
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like it could be snippets of talking put together. Someone might point out it's there somewhere.
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I haven't seen that particular line in that way in order to make it felt right. And the way
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the fond interaction between her and her brothers felt right as well. So I actually thought the
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detail of the script was the right register for the people of Rohan, a bit of humour,
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heroism. Yeah, so I actually quite liked, I think I'd enjoy reading the script again.
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That wasn't my problem, really. Yeah. How about you? What did you think on the pacing of it?
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Yeah, I didn't find myself bored. There were some slower parts, but they didn't, I didn't feel
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that there was anything that really dragged for me. I'll be honest, I watched it in a few different
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installments. I serialized it to make it fit. So I wasn't able to sit down and watch it straight
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through. So perhaps my mode of watching it, this one of the benefits and drawbacks of watching
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things on streaming is you can watch it, you can choose to get up, be like you said, you get on
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your phone. I never got on my phone while I was watching it, but you can start and stop it,
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and it's not meant to be consumed in a picking it up, putting it down sort of way.
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But you can watch it a little more easily. So for me, I didn't notice in my two and a half
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sessions of watching it, there weren't, when you were seeded in at the Hornburg,
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there were slower portions where there's longer dialogue, but there was enough in those
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points, enough mystery of what was happening, tension that was building outside of the gates,
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right? Wolf having to interact with his, you know, Dunlunding leader that he was kind of his,
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his, his, you know, left tenet in a way. And what's Mark?
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General Mark, he sounds like he character in Star Wars, actually, doesn't he?
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It's a task he has. It probably worked fine. So I did actually do the cinematic thing,
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sit down on one bite, the one bit which I sort of hummed over, hummed and hard over, is the
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rabid mumm kill with the watcher in the deep octopus fight. Now I don't know, this is where I'm,
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I feel my education in the traditions of Japanese anime might be letting me down,
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but I did wonder if the kind of monster fight is something which is expected in the form,
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yeah, or Matt, the sort of Godzilla versus, I don't know, King Kong time.
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I don't like, yeah, yeah. And so I did wonder about that. For me, I could completely
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done without that. And it seemed to me not unnecessary, but I will stand corrected if it's
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required by the form and the director's style and a month easing the the anime, the people
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who are coming to this as an anime film as opposed to cooking fans. So I've just put that
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for me was, no, not mine, I'm not really into monster fights, but there you go.
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Okay, so, so far the story, hooray for the female centered story, screenplay pretty good.
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So it felt, it felt as though it followed on the kind of language in the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
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So let's go to the animation. What was your response to seeing this realized as an anime?
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I appreciate seeing visual elements translated from one medium into into another. So
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it's fun. It's interesting seeing how that works for one of the games that I was involved
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working on. It was, and this has officially been announced, so I can share this, is that one of our
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lines of games of villainous game have featured largely cartoon characters, so 2D animation,
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and then brought on 3D animation with Disney 3D animation and Pixar. So having those adapted
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into a painterly style, which kind of like the house style for this series of games.
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So seeing the adaptation from traditional 2D to then painted or 3D, how it kind of like flattening
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that image to a 2D image. But now we just announced that we're doing our first live action
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villain that's adapted into 2D painterly animation style. So going from, so it's interesting for me
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to see how what you're taking into consideration in that moving from the dynamism of
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not photo realism because it's actual. You're taking still photos and putting them together
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in a sequence to create the illusion of moving images. So there's things that they're trade-offs
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from translating it into any medium. One of which is facial expressions. So you have to cartoon
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eyes, a person, caricaturize, a person, capture. If you're wanting to look like somebody else,
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getting the strongest features so that it's recognizable in this different format.
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And so with the animation, one of the challenges is you can't capture the same sort of level
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of detail of emotion in face, in a character's face. So here, that's one of the things with anime
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is that you have to kind of heighten the emotions, the actions that are happening around something
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so that it communicates more clearly what's actually happening internally emotionally with these
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people because you can't hold, you can have the sort of degree of incredible performances that we
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had in Lord of the Rings with these incredible actors where you can see just the tiniest twitch
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in their eyebrow, the furrow of their brow movements of the corner of the mouth. That's something
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that's harder to depict in animation. So you're not going to have as nuanced or layered of a
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visual performance with characters. So knowing that going in and what the limitations are,
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it was, so I appreciated visually changing that to that not just as a replica of what,
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you know, a normal, if you were just to do a one to one of a human or animals, but in the style
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of anime, which has a different feel or flavor visually. I like seeing them translated into those
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and thought that it was fun to see Lord of the Rings characters in that kind of hyper hyper or
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characterized realistic way moving through this world. And there are things that you can do with that
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that you can't if you're just doing it as strictly photorealistic. For example, Helm jumping off
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of the walls down from the top of the walls below to save his daughter. That's something that
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when you'd have to do a lot, if this was a film version of that to kind of for the audience to
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buy that, but in this kind of like animated style, it's easier to buy a character jumping off the
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top of a wall and not crushing every bone in their body upon impact below. So I think there's
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some leeway that you can have when you move from live action to animation. And so that was fun
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to see them kind of exploit that in the action sequences, the stylized, some of the fight scenes.
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Yeah, and just kind of like the dynamism of that art style to see that applied to the middle.
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Okay, so this is my problem. This is my problem with the thing, which is I felt the backgrounds
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and some of the camera angles and the way sequences were put together were wonderful. And it's
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particularly pleasing that they've used the what we're used to from the Lord the Rings film. So
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when you see ederas, for example, you see ederas plus a realistic number of houses for a village,
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which was always a bit sparse on the set of ederas, but they've been able to sketch in a more
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convincing little town. I loved all that and really enjoyed sort of spotting the familiar landscapes
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and seeing the extension of them in this. So the backgrounds were very good.
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But the foreground characters were very uneven when you look at the stills on IMDB or even just
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online. The poster behind me, for example, it looks as though they're very full drawings.
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But actually, there are places in it where people's features are very sketchy. It's not consistently
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good and particularly poor are the horses, which is a disaster in a film about Rohan. The horses
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don't move like horses move. And in fact, when they're galloping away, there's often this sort
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of gliding movement, which is something from cartooning, which is I just didn't like it at all.
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So I thought it's the wrong, I came away thinking, actually, this is the wrong medium for this
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story. I would love them to remake this as live action with a really good actress as hear
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her do it properly with actors. And I would watch that film because I think it's a strong enough
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story. The anime undermines it and makes it underwhelming and sort of so what. So for example,
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one of the things that came out for me is, as well as her relationship with her father,
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she has a relationship with her brothers who are called something like
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karma, who's the musician. And is it halas, who's like the warrior? I think it's
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and it's hardly established, particularly, you see karma once, but you're not even quite sure
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who he is, is disguising in, you know, you don't get much time to set up the emotion that when they,
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I'm sorry, it is not surprising, they don't last long because that's, you know, that's the fate.
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There's hardly any time to establish how important they are to her. And I think with something
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which is act as opposed to a character, you can do that with the same number of scenes because if
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you think how the death of Steadred, how moving that is, even though we never actually see
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Steadred alive. Right. Right. So I think the animation style is the problem.
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So yeah, it's definitely, it favors, it privileges the action sequences, right?
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At the cost of deeper character, character building and character work.
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But even a better form of animation, there are many, many, I think it was the actual choice of
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anime for this is the mistake. There are other forms of animation which give a wider range of
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performance. So for me, I don't know, I suppose if you're an anime fan, maybe this is a good
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version of anime, I don't know, but it didn't seem that good to me, particularly just take a
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horse and look at how a horse moves. You think, you know, go back to, it doesn't work. So
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that's why I'm underwhelmed by it and why it's 2.5 stars. Yeah. When I actually put that
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in story. Yeah. So if the primary, yeah, so it seems like what you're saying is like for the
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primary, if the primary audience was anime, if that's what they were hoping to grab and that's where
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the, the money would be returned just based on anime audience, then perhaps if that's who they're
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wanting to please, most, then great. You probably did a really good job. I don't know. That was
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like, somebody knows this call back better than I do. Yeah. Right. But if your target audience is a
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typical like four quadrant film that's appealing to a broader audience of Lord of the Rings first
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fans who are not just Lord of the Rings, but like Lord of the Rings film fans, then perhaps yeah,
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the visual style, like what you're expecting from the storytelling there and the level of nuance
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and character explorations that that's going to be something you're going to be disappointed
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by based on that. So yeah, I would agree with you there. And there's also just some,
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you were talking about Helm jumping down that cartoon level because these are humans as opposed
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to elves. There are some elements which they don't quite tie up. So there is this question that
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has Helm become a kind of monster, a kind of dappier type figure, like a revenant type figure
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haunting outside the walls with these superhuman abilities. He's somehow some sort of magic or
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something happened to him. It's kind of posited and then never really answered and it could have
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bitten the snow troll or ice troll or whatever it is. And maybe he's just a very strong man.
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And I found that these questions are sort of raised but not answered, annoying.
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Yeah, you're right, you're right, you're right. And I think what I did appreciate about the building
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of the legend of Helm as he is stalking outside the walls and doing these surgical, not surgical.
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They seem to be rather brutal but kind of more focused attacks forays into the enemy's camp
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and then coming back and then returning. I thought they did a good job depicting that it affected
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the morale of the people that were in the gun lending at plus folks that were at the Hornburg
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who were seizing them. This was a story. They're telling each other, they're scared, they're
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heightening what's happening themselves. But we're not shown clearly. So we're allowed to see
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what they think of this and so they're building him up to be this right then they used to work right
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specifically that he is a ray that can't be killed and he does this. And so we see where that's
34:31
coming from. It's not coming from the folks that are on the other side of the wall. They're not
34:37
saying that this is what's happening to Helm, but this is the people who he's striking fear into
34:41
the hearts of. And so I think yeah, but in the animation itself, even when they're showing him
34:47
punching and if you see us still like at least on IMDB, one of the stills they have is just
34:53
Helm close up on his face and his eyes are whited out, which suggests that he's super natural
35:01
as has some sort of supernatural bent to what he is doing. So they're definitely playing with that.
35:09
They don't come on firmly either way. Now if this is just if you're framing it as a story,
35:16
that would I think be a good place to have the narrator come in and like clarify that like some
35:21
some say X others say Y, but in the hearts of those who feared him, he was always Z, right? So
35:31
like that that's somewhere where having the narrator could come in and kind of tidy up that
35:36
little bit to make clear whether or not he is actually possessed of a supernatural power or if this
35:42
is just doubling down on the kind of idea of stories and how legends arise and people's minds
35:49
in the moment as well as in retrospect through the ages. So a couple of other little niggle points.
35:57
This is to see what we all sat around talking about after we watched the film. Another niggle point is
36:05
just how unreasonable wolf is. He's got a very good general general tag is actually very sensible.
36:12
But he is he's character flips the switch flips and there he doesn't come back at all and so it feels
36:25
there isn't a glimmer at all of anything redeeming about him even though he's given lots of
36:32
chances. So he becomes quite flat out villain which is it makes him a problem and unless
36:39
when he dies it's it's kind of oh that's good he's out the way. As opposed to the sort of it could
36:45
be more emotion there because he's seen his father kill you know there's some reasons why
36:52
and then there's something that's the really ridiculous point is about harmer and his horse
36:56
because I think really this film could be subtitled men are stupid women are wise it was
37:04
too much sailed far too much into that territory because harmer dies because he's taken a
37:10
clapped out horse from the stable into battle. And surely surely there was other choices you know
37:20
is this king's son you don't have to take one he's going to conquer out poor thing. So there was
37:27
sort of silly I don't know there was I suppose it went too much to making all the men flawed and
37:36
really a bit dumb or violent and it's the women who come through to save the day because even
37:47
what's his name Freerlap the cousin who comes back to you becomes a new king he's very much a
37:55
afterthought he's not really a hero his he's a bit like the what I felt was going on there it reminded
38:04
me of Hamlet where he's got 14 bros come in and say oh yeah it's all right now I'm here
38:11
he was a sweet prince you know you come in at the end to take over without actually really having
38:17
been much part of the the narrative anyway so I've got lots of niggles with it
38:23
yeah well I think if I like did something with those characters uh and you know Hama in particular
38:30
that we didn't see him much there wasn't much set up with him I will say though that that was
38:35
for me on watching the scene where his horse you know his old probably it looked like that was
38:41
his favorite horse this is clearly and they set up that one of his sons was really you know like
38:45
strong and battle hardened the other one it has a liar and he like singing songs and so
38:53
there's this kind of contrast of the two which is which is part of the more of the the source
38:58
material I think leaning into that a little bit um but in showing that this is this this kind of
39:04
reluctant prince who doesn't want to be part of the battle and he just wants to sing songs and
39:12
ride on his old horse and then when he when the when the horse does give out and he has to stop
39:18
and he's kind of talking there with this horse like for me that was a you know like it was a sweet
39:22
it was a it was a sweet moment um and then I think it was tragic it was tragic it was it was absolutely
39:27
it's a tragedy so I didn't so yeah so I did like that note that he was you know that he was so committed
39:32
to this his his favorite horse life won't maybe lifelong life so so that was at least for me like
39:40
like seeing that's like okay like that was that was kind of like a nice like little little spot
39:43
but then like you could see like you know like exactly what's happening it's more of this like
39:46
feel like dread that like okay they're catching him and that part of the going to do to him um so
39:51
that was that on the the ham and on the the wolf I think you're right that the it to show him as a more
39:57
multi-dimensional or conflicted character would have made it more compelling and so I think part of
40:05
that the challenges from the outset you just have braca uh his wolf's father coming in you know
40:12
just kind of blustery come in demanding he looks you know visually he looks kind of grotesque because
40:19
he's you know he's he's larger he's he's overweight he has these you know skin because tattoos skin
40:25
markings and just kind of coming in and just kind of gross then demanding that the king's daughter
40:31
is going to marry his son and so he says about clearly as this like you know one-dimensional one
40:36
note kind of villain whereas you kind of see wolf there a bit um you say they see the childhood
40:43
friends as well say yeah yeah we do see that so I so I would have like I think what I've liked with
40:48
the light to have seen is something that showed wolf's relationship with freka a little bit more
40:54
even as they're just like coming up to the king or wolf's reaction to his father could have been
41:00
a couple lines even you know one line of dialogue between the two to establish this is their
41:05
relationship and so if if you saw the love for whatever reason that wolf had for his father
41:12
dancing his father that you already have see that they have an emotional connection to see that
41:17
you know taken away from ripped away from him then I think they would make it more convincing and
41:21
clear not there's not just a duty that he has as a son to you know by tradition that he has to
41:28
avenge his father but if there was something that more of an emotional tie between them then
41:33
that would show how his emotions played into that similar to his emotions I think they did
41:39
communicate a little bit at least exposition wise that wolf was attracted to Hera and Hera
41:46
and always wanted to you know end up with them that I was always the hope she saw them always as
41:51
just friends but and so like the flashback scene I thought was nice to at least establish that
41:57
their kind of friends is a bit but I think deepening that would have been really helpful and to
42:03
show him being more conflicted than like you said just kind of like flipping the switch and now he's
42:08
just full evil and just you know running them into the ground for trying to do so even after they
42:15
technically won when Helm had died and you know the crown was not on his head anymore it seemed yeah
42:23
that that was it was hard to engage emotionally with the film at that point it was just kind of waiting
42:31
out what's inevitably going to happen that he's going to run his resources dry and that people
42:38
at Rohan are going to escape so it wasn't as interesting emotionally because of wolves kind of
42:43
you're right that kind of like one note um irredeemable evil with no you know unalloyed uh and with no
42:50
real compunctions or inner conflict that was yeah it's something that I think would have deepened
42:57
and enriched it yeah yeah see yeah I that's that's my problem with that character I think the voice
43:06
acting was strong throughout I think everyone was world cast I got no grumbles with that Brian Cox
43:11
makes a great good you know help have a hand and I thought here a guy wise was very good at
43:20
part you know a lovely rich tone to her voice all of that was I thought was really strong um I don't
43:28
know about you any any any cripples there no I mean I was delighted to for the cameo of uh
43:36
Mary and Pippin oh yeah Dominic Monahan and Billy Boyd uh featuring as a couple of
43:41
troll the two trolls that are featured in there that it's additional material in an attempt to kind
43:46
of tie it into technically they're awkes in the company of a troll yes exactly yeah and they're
43:55
collecting rings which is a big wink oh yeah um sirens up yeah yeah so it's fun and to see
44:03
the actually using Christopher Lee's voice at the end to have Christopher Lee make and
44:10
audio appearance after the fact like so that that was fun I will say yeah I didn't know what to
44:17
think I had to think about that one for a while to see if it was earned um showing at the very end
44:24
you know Saruman coming in and using Christopher Lee's voice with a nice a nice cameo but really
44:30
mostly and or it's not entirely just a nod and a wink to the audience the people who are there
44:37
from the films who are there from like the Lord of the Rings films not because that didn't really
44:41
that didn't add anything at all to the story yeah that's self the self the dance story yeah and I think
44:46
they got permission from the uh the estate to dig through the house and find his voice which is
44:52
which is great because he was such a talky aficionado um so one of the very very strongest parts of the
44:59
film is the music so it's composed by Stephen Gallagher based on the themes that Howard Shaw
45:07
created and then I've already mentioned there are the wonderful underused song by um
45:13
Paris Filoma I thought that that was great and I've been listening to the soundtrack and thinking
45:20
this really does deepen my response to the material what's about yeah it was I like the reworking
45:27
yeah that it was you know taking that theme the Rohan theme and building it out and using it in
45:34
a different way so it didn't it didn't feel like it was derivative it wasn't just like trying to
45:39
copy Howard Shore but uh yeah I I enjoyed I thought yeah that it added to it it maintained that
45:46
uh environment so like the feeling that you get that initially that you know the Howard Shore was
45:50
able to establish with that feel that violins um of of Rohan then turning that into the kind of
45:58
like background music for the entire film um yeah it was it was good I enjoyed it as well
46:05
so in some we've got the thing here where um the story is pretty satisfying not too bad a couple
46:13
of things you might want to read it but not too bad a good good choice to go over the shill maidens
46:19
some things which could have been better but for me the problem was the choice of animation
46:26
style not fitting not just not seeing not just not working for me um and but I do have time for
46:37
the story you know that I do have time for the story so a bit of a miss in the same way as the Hobbit
46:46
was a bit of a miss um the material promising but actually yeah a bit of a miss so the question is
46:56
what is your thoughts now as this group the Peter Jackson,
47:02
Phillipa Boyens, Fran Walsh, Andy Circus and so on take on the Hunt for Gollum which is good
47:09
yeah that's a good question live action film um which and the Hunt for Gollum fits in
47:16
again it's appendices material if and bits of that storytelling in Lord of the Rings
47:23
it's a prequel to Lord of the Rings thoughts on so yeah so yeah to to take a like maybe a
47:31
bit of a step back to then answer this or take here I'd love to hear Julia how you thought
47:36
from this so this was clearly by including a Miranda Otto to imply that AON as the one who is
47:44
speaking you know this story by including uh you know orcs who are searching for a ring who's tied
47:51
to you know who who save the word Mordor uh to tie it you know by rings there by bringing in
47:58
Saruman um Christopher Lee's voice there by including Eagles the Mooma Kill the you know the the
48:06
watcher by including those characters they're clearly trying to tie it to the Lord of the Rings
48:13
larger Lord of the Rings films so Mike I guess with Christian Pugh uh Julia is how much do you
48:20
how much do you feel this film for you to recontextualize the Lord of the Rings films for you or for
48:29
maybe for or broader audience was there anything that you saw like after walking away from this film
48:35
that deepened an appreciation for any of the motivations uh or you know there's like background
48:44
broader understanding of the world of the Lord of the Rings films well I think it all I think
48:50
what it did do and but didn't do quite right is it does explore the idea of what a shield maiden
49:00
might be and where the warrior women would have been in this world and I thought that was really that
49:09
was good I liked that it's not really within Tolkien though but why but if we're going to spin
49:15
off something it's in the cracks of the history so it you understand what tradition air when
49:23
feels she is following and I thought that was great because she is so isolated in Rohan she's the
49:29
only woman we see um other than background actors so I think that that is what I value from it
49:40
and extrapolating from that if the hunt for golem is able to draw out of that prequel material
49:52
airwind story and every story our wind story and some more feminized have more women in
50:02
the story um perhaps our godmother for example um those sorts of characters I think that would be
50:11
interesting to see uh and yeah something new to say because again you've got the problem that
50:19
they have pieces of Tolkien which are sketched out they're not fully realised plots so they're
50:28
going to have to fill out which characters they're choosing to put in but they could say oh yes
50:35
by the way this this world also involves women you know um and you could even go further back of course
50:43
into more of golem's past because the stores had the matriarchal families you could go back further
50:53
than that I don't know if they'll want to do that because of course in I think it's returned the
50:58
king you see him fighting material don't you so they've already done a little bit of the
51:04
prequel material there but it's just two hobbit proto hobbits on their own and it's not in their
51:09
context so there are choices they can make but i'm going to flip the question back to you
51:16
it seems as though in order to ensure an audience they're thinking of rounding up the old team
51:22
so vegan vegan waterson is being mentioned in macheleon is being mentioned all ando bloom is being
51:30
mentioned notice the women haven't been mentioned but they've been
51:36
with um the talk of using de aging technology now i remember if you watch the making of videos about
51:47
the hobbit one of the reasons why Peter Jackson got really excited about it because he wanted to use
51:53
this new higher frame rate technology which turned out to be one of the things that made the hobbit
52:02
look really odd because i don't read it as real um and also the ovaries you know spreading out
52:11
material over too long was also another problem there and i'm worried that this team are going to
52:17
get really excited about this digital technology use older actors to reprise roles which they did
52:25
really well 20 years ago and they're not brave enough to say let's go and find the new vegan
52:32
yeah pass the torch the new orland of blooms and the new in macheleons um we surely
52:41
the torch does need to be passed on or else uh give somebody else a chance
52:47
all right this is my feeling of actors without having like masses of digital
52:53
um most production work that's my feeling yeah and that's good and that's yeah so i see that the
53:00
conundrum uh that they're in which is they want to capture the previous audience but also
53:08
try to make it accessible for other people as well and so if you lean too far on the nostalgia
53:15
then that's not going to be enough to to take you in or it's just going to age out as soon as those
53:21
characters are too old to play even digitally versions of themselves um yeah or are you
53:29
willing to do something different so like this is what they you know chose to do with rings of
53:35
power which we've talked about uh previously is right the recasting an l-ron right so Hugo
53:40
weaving is this iconic character right gladriel um kate blanchett how do you find somebody you can't
53:48
they could have presumably could have used Hugo weaving or kate blanchett if they would have had
53:53
the budget which it sounds like with amazon they did um to just use those characters and de-age them
53:58
to keep that but they used new characters um uh which for some was probably a little jarring
54:05
because in their mind the platonic ideal of uh right of gladriel is kate blanchett and i
54:13
which i personally happen to believe um but that but to see the difference it takes there there
54:19
is a learning curve there but it does make for a more convincing you're right that like sometimes
54:25
the technology you're knowing that this is not actually how they look or if it's not entirely
54:31
seamlessly convincing there's always going to be something that is causing you to you know
54:37
suspend your belief in the actor and the performance but yeah i would it would it would certainly be
54:42
nice to see somebody who has you know in the same universe of of vego mortensen which i don't
54:51
know that you can what i've heard you cannot replicate vego ever worlds without end just on how
54:58
unique of an individual he is but find somebody else who is equally as unique who is still kind of in
55:04
that same general vein um i would love to see a chance given to other uh yep other actors to do
55:11
something really important right and really meaningful uh as a way to help them yeah i mean to
55:18
further the story in the room i i i the star wars universe have had uh had to deal with this
55:24
so you and McGregor being cast to replace um oh i like Guinness
55:31
i like thank you i like Guinness um nope goes i hate you and McGregor they just say oh right
55:38
maybe i a younger actor and he he shades his voice too so that there is a feeling of continuity
55:45
right um i just i'm just worried that all the budgets gonna go on
55:54
Peter Jackson aiming to escape uncanny valley because right digital enhancements really
56:01
still uh read odd yeah um the deep fake thing um you don't need to spend the money on that you
56:11
could spend the money right getting a new actor yeah giving your older actors cameos or
56:20
sort of role or something yeah if you want to keep the team together but actually letting a younger
56:25
band come up anyway so they're not listening to us i don't suppose
56:30
as they know yeah but i think too much too much fun is riding on this um but anyway you know i
56:35
particularly in the case of Ian McKellen who's in his eighties um if he's really you know
56:42
why not the chap who plays him in the rings of power does doing a pretty good job you know you
56:46
can find somebody who can do right right um and be able to ride a horse and hunt for golden
56:52
properly um yeah and i think if if they if they hope to escape they they can never escape the gravity
56:59
of the original films um so that's that that that that's a given so it's the the question is
57:05
how are you going to approach it if you want to make this as just another continuation and extension
57:11
of that or you wanting to set this as a a film that in its own right can somebody can come to
57:19
can be completely captivated by for those because this is a you know Lord of the Rings is 20
57:25
plus years ago and so this there's a new generation of of film goers you know but audience members
57:32
who right yeah yeah so that if you want to appeal to a new audience that's that's that's
57:39
something a great way to does find compelling actors who are of the age of these characters as
57:44
they're appearing in the story and not just de-aging actors who played these roles 20 20 plus years
57:50
ago um that could be and to make sure that the story itself is height right is it's self-contained
57:57
it's fulfilling it's immersing and then if that's if that's your kind of gateway for younger audiences
58:02
to then go in and and and be captivated by the films to even go see extended you know to then
58:08
be willing to give the hobbit a chance or war of the row herring to step into the broader talking word
58:13
and and haven't and maybe even they pick up a book and and read you know Lord of the Rings and
58:19
and pick that get immersed there so but the only way to do that is not by using is just kind of going
58:24
back to the well and just kind of retreading the same tropes and using the same actors it's to find
58:30
something that's energizing right and compelling and a story that speaks to that that ties into the
58:35
source material but also is able to then is is able to speak and like a primal almost like archetypal
58:42
level to a newer audience and that if if you can do that well also deepening uh you know the
58:49
experience of those long time fans um then that is the best possible outcome of of something like
58:55
this which i'm going to hope for yeah and that's all i can really do
59:03
as i was the film poster says hope has yet to abandon these lands yeah thanks Jacob but it's
59:11
getting real yeah thank you thank you very much for talking to me about the war of the row herring
59:17
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