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How Dr. Hobelmann Rebuilt His Life After Addiction · Finding New Waters

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Recovery is everything you do from the moment you wake up one
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day to the moment you wake up the next day.
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You know, it's a 24 hour gig, including how you sleep, what
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you eat, you know, how you exercise, you know, how you talk
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to people, how you treat people, you know, and the things you do
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for fun, you know, And then what is that, you know, as we call
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it, you know, their program of recovery, whatever that might
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be. How do you build that in there?
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And you know, it all amounts to, you know, a fantastic life for
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people to do it well and are engaged.
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All right. Welcome back everybody to
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another episode of Finding New Waters.
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My name is Bea Reeves. I'm the Director of Business
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Development here at New Waters Recovery in Raleigh.
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And we got our very special guest today with us, Doctor Greg
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Hobelman up in the Baltimore area from Ashley.
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And welcome, Greg. Thank you.
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I'm glad to be here. Take two.
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We had some technical difficulties yesterday, but
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we're back again. We don't give up.
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Right. Well, so I said, Ashley, what is
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what? What tell Tell us the name and
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what it was called and what it's called now and where is it?
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What? Do you do so yeah, as you noted
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on the Co CEO there now I'm a staff.
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I'm a psychiatrist and addiction psychiatrist by training at this
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point and I'm in long term recovery.
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But Ashley, it's official names. Ashley addiction treatment used
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to be called and is, you know, often called by many people
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Father Martin's Ashley and and Father Martin and May Abraham
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were the founders of it back in 1983.
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Father Martin was a wonderful Catholic priest too, was sober
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and he gained some notoriety in his speaking, his chalk talks,
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which are fantastic. And May Ashley Abraham was his
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someone who came to see him speak and they became very
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close. She got sober after seeing him
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speak. And they decided that they
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wanted to build a program. And the story of them building
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that program is pretty special. And the place that they found to
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do it is a really wonderful place.
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You know, we're blessed with this great environment, but the
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story is really cool and the traditions, you know, the the
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things that they brought to, to treatment, you know, dignity and
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respect for everybody, you know, and just, you know, full
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emphasis on on getting people well, you know, it's kind of
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what's carried through over time.
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What so you I know you a little bit in the outside world.
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We met couple years ago briefly and then have got to know each
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other better lately. We kind of got reconnected out
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in Washington state. We were out there for the NATAP
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conference, which is kind of the end all be all of sort of if
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there's even close to a governing body in the treatment
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world, that's it. And we had the pleasure of
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playing golf at Chambers Bay and then having dinner in Tacoma,
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WA, where we were sat together and kind of, you know, hit it
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off. We're talking about Seinfeld and
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recovery and everything else. So I know a little bit about
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your story, but will you tell our audience, you know, we know
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you're the Co CEO of one of the most respected treatment centers
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in the country, but how did you end up?
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How'd you end up there? Yeah, absolutely.
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I mean, you know, to kind of first and foremost, I identify
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as somebody in in recovery, which is great, you know, and
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that and, you know, us being together out in Washington and
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getting to play Chambers Bay and sitting and having, you know,
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dinner together and then seeing each other a few weeks later,
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you know, in Maryland and just staying close, you know, and I
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will note that, you know, I truly appreciate your daily
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texts that I get to read, you know, recovery text.
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And it's been a while since I've done that.
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And you started that up again for me and I asked you to
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continue it and you have and thank you very much.
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I'm so such a sick person that once I realized, hey, you know
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what, I want him on the podcast that I was like, he's going to
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think that I was texting him every day, these quotes that
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somebody else sends me just to butter him up to get him on the
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podcast. Not it never even crossed my
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mind. Never crossed my mind, but I
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love it. That's the stuff we get to do.
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We get to share our recoveries, you know, but yes, Sir, my, my
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story, you know, I was born and raised in Baltimore and my life
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was very good before I got sober.
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Struggled for a few years there to get sober and then it's been
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even better since getting sober. But I was, I was an
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anesthesiologist and, and pain medicine doc and practicing, you
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know, both of those developed an addiction to alcohol and, and
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opiates primarily. But you know, a long time
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drinker and, and lover of, of alcohol and it became a problem.
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And so I went to my first treatment in 2009.
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And you know, when I went to that treatment, had no idea that
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I had, you know, what we call an addiction or substance use
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disorder, didn't learn too much about it in medical school.
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So, and certainly didn't consider, you know, myself to be
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at risk in any way and how this happened to me.
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And so it was an incredible learning experience for me.
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I went through my first treatment and when I got back, I
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knew I was going to practice anesthesia and pain anymore.
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So I went up through my beginning of recovery, you know,
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and getting involved in the community.
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I had an opportunity to go up to Ashley to work as a staff
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physician and I drove into this place.
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It was just blown away, you know, and then the, the way
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people treated each other, the way, you know, the, the, the
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staff treated patients and the patient population were
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wonderful, you know, and it was great for me because I could
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identify, you know, with, with the patients and many of the
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staff, you know, both in and out of recovery.
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So I kind of fell in love with the place.
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I didn't stay sober, unfortunately.
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So I left there in 2011 after relapsing, you know, and of
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course, very bad luck, you know, to to leave treatment, to
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working in treatment, to go to treatment, you know, tail
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between my legs, so to speak, you know, and left them kind of
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high and dry. But I went and and got sober for
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real this time. And I mean, I put all my energy
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into it was down and a place called Talbot in Atlanta, which
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is a wonderful program, was there for four months.
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You know, it was a minimum of 90 days and I stayed 120, you know,
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did a lot of, of individual work down there and family came down,
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you know, for the family program and everything.
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And then I stayed engaged afterwards.
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I had the benefit of being able to dig into recovery for that
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full year, my full full first year.
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You know, I, I would say it was unfortunate to have my license
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suspended, but on the other hand, you know, it, it gave me
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the, you know, the latitude to really dive in and, and sink my
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roots into recovery. So I did that for the first year
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and I had a two year suspension. So I went and got an MPH the
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second year and decided, you know, I'd really like to try, if
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I can, to do a psychiatry residency and really become
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fully trained in the way I wanted to, you know, to go back
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and work in this field. And so, you know, despite the
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difficulty I put up for myself, I had a lot of people in my
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corner back me up and I was able to get into residency program,
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really had a ball, you know, training and and psychiatry.
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And then in 2016 came back to Ashley, which is just such a
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testament to Ashley. You know, I mean, there were
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people there that you know, who are very well aware of how I
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left and why I left and everything.
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And they said, hey, you know, you seem to be doing well.
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Mark Hush, who was Father Mark at the time, He was at the CEO
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and he, you know, welcomed me back with open arms.
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And the medical director of the time, Doctor Bernadette Salon,
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Yes. I mean, these are people that
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just were, you know, wonderful to to allow me to come back.
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And so I was able to come back and, you know, so I had this
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immense sense of gratitude and loyalty to Ashley for that.
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And it's very indicative of the kind of place that it is, you
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know, I'm, you know, the place of second and third and fourth
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chances, so to speak. And so I started off as a staff
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psychiatrist and, you know, saw patients, you know, patient
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after patient there and really loved it and just sort of raised
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my hand when, you know, was asked to do something, you know,
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and I kind of did. And that's evolution.
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It was started to taking over the outpatients and then, you
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know, becoming chief medical officer when doctor Salinas
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retired and then ultimately becoming Co CEO.
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And the reason we have Co CE OS is because you know, I really
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take care of that patient care side.
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And Alex Stensman, you know, my my my Co CEO has has come up
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through the ranks fully, you know, at Ashley in recovery for
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the past 20 plus years on the business development side and
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just, you know, running some of the operations of the program.
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So we've been, you know, really lucky to work together closely
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for the past four years now, you know, in this role.
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That's awesome. And you know, just your story of
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redemption within the Ashley umbrella reminds me of so much
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of what we kind of talk about every day, which is number one,
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we don't shoot our wounded. You know, they, they, they knew
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that, you know, that you weren't a bad person trying to become a
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good person. You're just a super sick person
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trying to get better and that you had all the potential in the
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world and they saw it in you and saw that you were really making
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strides to get better welcomed you back and then look where
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you've look where you look what you've become.
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It's amazing. And then the other thing it
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reminds me of is you know, you know, I've been sober for just
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over 7 years. I work at AI work at a treatment
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center. My my girlfriend who went to
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Ashley, we'll talk about in a second is in recovery.
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Most of the people I talked to all day are in recovery.
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Yet when I still here and I and I'm and I'm sitting here talking
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to my buddy who's an alcoholic, who's a doctor and I work with
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doctors and and I'm friends with doctors in recovery, you know,
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and, but still, when I hear the word alcoholic or addict, I
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don't think of you. I still think of the homeless
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guy under the bridge for that's my first initial thought, even
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though I know better. And, you know, and and to take
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this point further, you know, Alcoholics Anonymous was founded
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by a New York stockbroker and an Akron surgeon.
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But yet still, you know, I can only speak for me.
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I know other people feel the same way, but I'm only going to
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speak for me. Is that we still, that first
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thought is still that like brown bag bomb with a trench coat
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under a bridge. It's it's, you know, they that
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stigma still, even though I have feel like I've done my own
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personal work to relieve the stigma in general and especially
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of myself, it's still, it's still there and back to, you
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know, my my girlfriend going to Ashley.
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So I just would be remiss if I kind of didn't remind you and
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tell people who are listening. My kind of relationship with
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Ashley is kind of interesting. So I I went to treatment.
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I went to fellowship hall in Greensboro, which is probably
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about 10 years older than Ashley.
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I'd never been to treatment, knew nothing about recovery
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treatment, nothing. A few days in, they take us into
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one of the little group room. And, you know, it felt like
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being in 7th grade when there's a substitute.
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Like we're going to watch a movie today and they wheel in
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the TV and they turn it on this video on Avhs.
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And it's this cheesy kind of grainy video from the 80s with
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this old priest with thick Coke bottle glasses standing up there
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on a chalkboard, writing and talking.
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And I was like, what is this? And I mean, within 1520 seconds,
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I was completely captivated by this guy.
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And then a little bit later I'd somebody had mentioned they had
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gone to Father Martin's Ashley. And then they said, you know,
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that guy, the chalk talk priest, that's him.
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I was like, Oh yeah. Then you know, like maybe a year
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and a half, two years later, I start working in the field.
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And then I learned that Ashley, you know where it is.
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And then I went to go see it for myself as part of a work trip.
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And it's on the Chesapeake Bay. And it's absolutely just
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stunningly beautiful. And then I meet my girlfriend 3
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1/2 four years ago, who's been sober almost the same amount of
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time as I had. We were both little over three
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years, 3 1/2 years when we met. And she had gone to Ashley, you
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know, and her name is Hilda. And she told me to tell you
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thank you and that Ashley saved her life.
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You know, she works on her recovery every day like I do.
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But she's been sober ever since she went there September 18th,
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2018. And then, so we start dating and
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then we have this new Ashley connection and she was telling
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me, you got to read this book. I went, I, I had it signed by
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May Abraham when she spoke right before she died.
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And you know, it was a book that was sort of not self published,
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but wasn't like a Simon and Schuster kind of.
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And I was like, OK. And I never, I just never read
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it. And she would remind me every
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now. And then finally I was on a trip
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and I read that book in like 3 days.
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And it's called One step more about the the founding of
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Ashley. And it is not just a good book
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for somebody who's been to treatment or works in treatment.
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It's an absolutely beautiful, fascinating story that also
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involves fellowship Hall where I went to treatment.
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They, you know, we can only keep what we have by giving it away.
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And they gave away their sort of, you know, industry secrets
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and their playbook to the clinical, to the to father
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Martin and may to help open Ashley.
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I mean, it's just this full circle, amazing thing.
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So I personally have a nice soft spot for Ashley, so I just
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wanted to make sure I said that. Yeah, Well, I, I appreciate it,
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you know, and that book is a a wonderful book.
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I mean it because it not only describes, you know, just the
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opening of Ashley, but it gives a really great story of two
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people struggling with, you know, alcoholism and getting
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sober, you know, I mean, and Father Martin's story is, is
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pretty amazing, you know what I mean?
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It's Catholic priest, you know, and, and the time, you know,
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when that really was, you know, it would be a shameful, you
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know, for, for a Catholic priest to end up with a problem like
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that. You know, you talk about the
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stigma today, which is much better and much less than it was
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back then, you know, but he dealt with all that and he got
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sober and he wore it proudly. You know, he wore it like a fine
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suit. Not only that, I mean, talk
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about I encourage anybody who's listening to go and just look on
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YouTube Father Martin chalk talk because it doesn't matter.
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You know, when he he gave those those talks, I mean, they are
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relevant today, you know, and he's so engaging and he makes
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things as simple as they can be. And then may you know, I mean,
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she she was a powerhouse. I mean, she just kind of came
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through and said we're going to make this happen, you know, and
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she did did make it happen. They were they were quite, you
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know, a duo. But you know, you talk about
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the, all of those things, you know, are just these miracles
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that, that come through and your story and my story and how they
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intertwine, you know, and, and truly we, you know, we get to
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live this life of recovery, which is just, you know, full of
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so many blessings that you just don't even, you know, if you're
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not looking for them, you don't see them, but they are there,
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you know, and as soon as your eyes are open, you could just
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point to, you know, a million wonderful things that happen
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each day. Yeah, and you know, you being a
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Doctor Who not only works at a treatment center who does work,
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I know you work with definitely airline monitoring boards,
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right? Yeah.
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I mean, we, we treat pilots, you know, airline pilots and and,
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you know, we have a very diverse population.
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That's one of them, yeah. Yeah, well, but to, to the point
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of you going to Talbot and then you, you know, you had this
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mandatory basically, you know, you had to check a bunch of
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boxes, you know, not just go to treatment and go to, you know,
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90 meetings, 90 days and whatever.
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And I, my, my larger point is the, the evidence in, in the, in
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the stats for people like pilots who have to do this.
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And yes, their jobs are on the line, but they, but it's kind of
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that, you know, there's that myth that, and I talk to people
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about this everyday, you know, well, you know, my, my son, you
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know, he's just not totally ready.
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You know, he needs to, he needs to ask for the help and all
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that. And it's like in a perfect
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world, somebody says I'm done, I need help, I want help, I'll do
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anything. And then they do it.
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But so often it's like, like for me, like for me, and I see this
15:48
all the time. Like it wasn't my idea, you
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know, I went to kind of get people to leave me alone, you
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know, and I just sort of faked it until I made it long enough
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to get some results. You know, I mean, I just went
15:58
through the motions to make it go by fast.
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I participated to make it go by fast.
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And then like the case of the pilots.
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And then, I mean, I'll sounds like in your case, maybe to a
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little bit of a lesser degree in terms of the time you were
16:09
required to be engaged, People do the work long enough and they
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get the results and they're like, hey, you know what this
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is? I like this.
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This is better, you know. Yeah, I would say, you know,
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what you're talking about is kind of this term that we use.
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It's not a great term, but it's coercion, right?
16:24
To some degree. You know, when you look at the
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literature and stuff and you say basically, you know, most people
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are going, they're going because of consequences, right?
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I mean, that's what drives you into treatment.
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And a lot of that is dictated by the consequences, you know,
16:37
that, you know, how other people are seeing you, what happens
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with your relationships, you know, with with pilots and
16:43
physicians. Obviously there's a job
16:44
component to it, but for whatever reason, you know, you
16:47
get sort of, you know, pushed into this world and then you're
16:50
exposed to it, you know, and over time, you know, you have
16:52
that spiritual awakening of the the learned variety, you know,
16:56
and he talks about, you know, in the back of the big book, but it
16:59
does work, you know, you have to have exposure to it.
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And people do come to this, you know, over whatever time it
17:05
takes them. We hope sooner than later.
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And we love the gift of desperation, you know, But the
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reason that the the pilot and physician programs do well is
17:12
because, you know, they are they're monitored and they're
17:16
forced to do certain things that are good for them, right?
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You know, and over time, as you do those things, you realize,
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well, some of these things are very beneficial.
17:23
Not necessarily all of it, but a lot of it is beneficial.
17:27
And you develop your program of recovery, you know, and then,
17:30
yeah, we're monitored for, you know, 5810 years, whatever, you
17:34
know, the program dictates. But that ends, you know, and
17:38
the, the vast majority of people that have completed that stick
17:42
with recovery and do what they're doing, you know, and
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recovery is everything you do from the moment you wake up one
17:46
day to the moment you wake up the next day.
17:48
You know, it's a 24 hour gig, including how you sleep, what
17:51
you eat, you know, how you exercise, you know, how you talk
17:54
to people, how you treat people, you know, and the things you do
17:57
for fun, you know, and then what is that?
17:59
You know, you know, as we call it, you know, their program of
18:02
recovery, whatever that might be.
18:05
How do you you build that in there?
18:06
And you know, it all amounts to, you know, a fantastic life for
18:12
people to do it well and are engaged.
18:13
I mean, you know the. Yeah, You know, one of my
18:17
favorite sayings is, you know, I heard so funny some of the
18:20
things that I feel like I I will hear and kind of spurts where
18:23
I'll hear people say this a lot in meetings and then not hear it
18:26
for a while. But a lot of the stuff that I
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heard in those really early days.
18:30
And one of those things is I wake up every day with untreated
18:33
alcoholism, you know, and that's to your point about this being
18:36
24/7, you know, and, you know, and that's why, you know, I wake
18:41
up and I train myself. I mean, I don't think I ever did
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the thing where I like, I put my shoes under the bed where I had
18:45
to get on my knees to get them up about from under the bed.
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But for the first time in my life, I mean, when I was at
18:51
Fellowship Hall, I was like, OK, I'm finally willing to follow
18:55
directions. And part of those directions
18:57
were to pray on my knees every morning and every night.
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And if I need to in between. But I've I've done that I book
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in my days. With that's the surrender, you
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know, I mean, that's the surrender.
19:06
And you, you know, you take suggestion early on and you
19:08
figure out what it is that works for you.
19:10
You know what it turns out what works for me is what works for
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lots of other people. You know, I just have to do it.
19:16
I don't, I don't like that. This is, you know, we, we talk
19:19
about it as work. Oh, you have to do a lot of
19:21
work, you know, Oh, you know, it's, you know, the recovery is
19:24
work. You know, it's really not.
19:26
It's a sort of a like a lifeline labor of love is what what it
19:29
is. I mean, you know, this is good
19:31
stuff, right? I want to take my inventory.
19:33
I want to get to know myself. I want to behave in ways that
19:36
make me feel better. You know, I want to align my
19:39
behavior with my value system. I mean this stuff.
19:41
And then of course, I want to, you know, take care of myself
19:43
physically, emotionally, cognitively, spiritually, in all
19:46
those ways because you feel better, you know, so it's not
19:49
really work. I mean, you know, you got to do
19:51
some stuff, but it the dividends that are paid are just
19:55
tremendous. Yeah, that's a great point too,
19:58
because I do find myself saying that to people pretty much
20:01
everyday, probably multiple times a day, you know, just got
20:04
to do the work. You know, it's one thing to get
20:05
dried out and you know, the substance is out, but it takes
20:08
work. And you know, I'm, I'm going to,
20:11
I'm going to look at that because I, you know, if I
20:14
hearing you say that, it's a great point that it could be a
20:16
turn off to some people, including myself, you know,
20:18
because I, you know, most people, myself included, don't
20:20
think of work is fun. Although the job that I have,
20:25
you know, and you know, your job's a little different.
20:27
You're a Co CEO and you're a doctor.
20:28
But still, I mean, it doesn't feel like work usually because
20:33
I'm usually having a conversation like this with
20:36
somebody, you know, on some level about being in recovery
20:40
and doing not the work, but what it what, what it takes to be
20:43
happy, joyous and free. And you know, another way I
20:46
frame it is like I'd still like to feel good.
20:51
You know, it says in the book people generally drink because
20:54
they like the effect produced by alcohol.
20:56
You know, like I still I like the effects produced by being in
20:59
recovery, you know, and, and that and what it those
21:02
ingredients, you know. And so I guess long way of
21:05
saying I still like to feel good.
21:06
I just don't have drugs and alcohol to make that happen.
21:08
What I have are these suggestions.
21:11
Yeah, I like, I like to say if I don't, you know, if I don't get
21:14
high in sobriety, I'm not going to be able to stay sober.
21:17
You know, I've got to enjoy this.
21:18
I have to figure out how to make this, you know, of more benefit
21:22
in my life and something that I want to continue to do.
21:25
And the only way that really happens is by, you know, to by
21:28
realizing these benefits, you know, which are, you know, a
21:32
Peace of Mind, a sense of contentment, you know, some
21:34
satisfaction in life. And then the fun that comes
21:37
along with it. You know, it's amazing.
21:39
I wake up, you know, particularly on weekends when
21:41
I'm not at work, you know, work is like you said, I enjoy, enjoy
21:45
what I do for, for a living and stuff, but I really value my, my
21:48
time off as well. And I, you know, wake, you know,
21:50
ready for the day and excited at 5:30 and I'm filling that day
21:54
with stuff that I want to do. You know, it's, it's wonderful,
21:56
you know, and, and no longer is, you know, the thought of taking
22:00
a drink, you know, come into that.
22:02
You know, it doesn't seem appealing at this point, but
22:04
I'll tell you, it was early on, you know, and that, that, that
22:07
first couple of years and you're kind of fighting that piece off.
22:10
But once that piece, you know, the true obsession and, and
22:13
those, you know, the jonesing type of cravings are, are gone.
22:17
You know, the freedom that you get is just wonderful.
22:20
Yeah, you know, and it says in the 12:00 and 12:00, you know,
22:24
are the sort of more affectionate name of the 12
22:27
steps and 12 traditions, which is literature in Alcoholics
22:30
Anonymous. And it, when it's talking about
22:33
Step 3 and it says paraphrasing, you know, the the more dependent
22:37
we are on our higher power, the more independent we are as a
22:40
result, you know, and for me, that's like the more dependent I
22:42
am on my higher power That, that looks like doing the
22:47
suggestions, what's suggested to me through 12 step recovery.
22:51
And so it seems like if I name out the things I do for my
22:55
recovery on a daily basis, it seems like a lot of a lot, you
22:58
know, and that that would be like, how do I have time to do,
23:01
have fun or do anything else? And it's really not that much
23:04
stuff, but it but it can sound like a lot the but though it's
23:07
one of the, you know, the paradox already mentioned, we
23:10
can only keep what we have by giving it away.
23:12
It's another paradox for me where the more I do for my
23:15
recovery and I'm like, I'm going to refrain from calling it work
23:17
here, but the more time I have for everything else, you know,
23:21
and the, the real independence comes from not having the
23:24
obsession that you mentioned. And for me, the obsession to
23:26
drink and use kind of went away. I mean, I had like kind of a,
23:29
you know, a little bit of a white light spiritual experience
23:32
in treatment. And then I've had a spiritual
23:34
awakening of the educational variety sense on doing the daily
23:37
stuff. But my obsession went from like
23:40
drinking it to like everything else in my life, like, Oh my
23:43
God, I can't believe this. And I'm I'm worried about that,
23:45
that, that stuff. And so that came from my
23:47
drinking stay for my thinking thing.
23:49
That was when I heard that I was like, Oh my God, yes, OK, but
23:53
but the but the the true independence comes from, you
23:56
know, the not thinking about all the doom and gloom.
23:59
You know that. And then, but somehow the
24:01
paradox is the more I do for my recovery, the more time I have
24:05
for everything else. Because before I wasn't doing
24:07
much with my life, to be honest. You know, I mean, I was doing a
24:09
lot of sleeping and a lot of staying up late and avoiding
24:13
responsibilities and lying to everybody.
24:15
But but I don't have time to do anything if somebody needed to
24:17
like, you know, hey, can you come by or do this?
24:19
I was like, oh, I'm so busy. But now I'm busier than ever.
24:23
But I also have more time for everything than ever.
24:25
I'm not sure how that works. There's no doubt about it, I
24:29
think from moving, you know, that piece, you know, this
24:33
addiction from our brain, you know, this, this substance
24:36
that's on our brain and taking up so much of it, you know,
24:38
removing it just creates a vast amount, you know, of energy and
24:43
time, you know, for lots of other stuff, you know.
24:46
And so I think the things that we do for our recovery become
24:52
like everything else, a habit, you know, and the habit produces
24:55
good results. So hey, let's continue this
24:57
habit. You know, not to say that, you
25:00
know, I heard something that I thought was great.
25:02
You know, if your recovery is not inconvenient, you know
25:06
you're not doing it right. It's true.
25:07
Rarely do I feel like getting up and you know, I'm sitting on the
25:10
couch and, and heading to a meeting, but you know, I do it
25:13
and I'm very happy I did at the end of it.
25:15
But there's an inconvenience the same way going to the gym is
25:18
kind of inconvenient, right? You know, you got to take time
25:20
out and go and you got to shower afterwards.
25:22
Cool, all that kind of stuff. It's, it's inconvenient, but you
25:25
know what, you see the results, you know, they're very evident
25:28
and you see the results too, you know, from from doing those
25:31
things in your recovery and you build that pattern and that way
25:33
of thinking. And I think the, the, the part
25:37
that people don't often speak about enough with regard to
25:41
coping mechanisms and stuff is, is truly learning to think
25:44
differently. You know, you think differently,
25:47
you behave differently. And that has emotional benefit.
25:49
It's, it's cognitive behavioral therapy, you know, and we get it
25:53
through through this recovery program.
25:56
And I am consistently thinking about, you know, the steps and
26:04
how they are alive in my life. You know, and I, I listen at
26:07
meetings, I listen to people when they're talking, whether
26:10
sometimes having nothing to do with, you know, anything related
26:15
to recovery, you know, and you can put these things into that
26:18
framework of the steps. And if you are applying those
26:21
steps, well, you feel really good.
26:25
You know, it reduces anxiety, it reduces the bad symptoms and it,
26:28
you know, and it produces, you know, good symptoms.
26:31
So I have found that to be just a really important part of what
26:35
I can do all day, every day is think in the best way I can.
26:39
And the rest of this stuff kind of happens as it's.
26:41
Happening. I wanted to backtrack or say you
26:43
mentioned just the word habits, you know, and I feel like that's
26:46
something at least in my little world, I haven't talked about or
26:50
heard much about lately in terms of like the positive habits.
26:53
And so from your perspective, you're a, you know, you're a guy
26:56
in recovery. You're also, you know, you're a
26:58
doctor. So like in a psychiatrist, what
27:01
will you just talk a little bit more about like habits?
27:04
And specifically, you know, I've heard different, you know, it
27:07
takes 24 days to create a habit and to to drop a habit.
27:11
Like, you know, and this all can be kind of tied into, you know,
27:15
like how long an insurance carrier believes somebody should
27:19
be in treatment. You know, the based on some of
27:20
these days, can you kind of talk about like where those numbers
27:23
come from and what's real? Yeah, well, and I don't have all
27:27
that at my fingertips, but I'll tell you, I read the book The
27:31
Power of Habit, which is probably, you know, the best
27:33
book that I've read regarding that.
27:35
Now, obviously there's a whole behavioral psychology piece
27:38
which is fascinating and interesting and talking about a
27:40
whole bunch of different stuff. But we're talking about pure
27:42
habits, you know, the power of habit, you know, and, and every
27:45
behavior, you know, sort of has an antecedent, the behavior and,
27:49
and then you know, what follows the reward or the consequence
27:52
afterwards. And so when you kind of build
27:55
this framework into what a behavior is and how you build a
27:58
habit, which I found incredibly beneficial to read in that book,
28:02
The Power of Habit, I started to understand how to change these
28:08
behaviors, you know, and, and little things that you can do to
28:11
do it and understanding what, you know, why I want to do this,
28:14
why I don't want to do that, you know, it, it all, you know, and
28:17
having that understanding, you know, makes it easier to change
28:22
behavior or made it easier for me to change my behavior.
28:25
So you could do these little things, you build them in
28:27
slowly. And yeah, it's roughly 30 days
28:31
before, you know, havoc gets somewhat ingrained and you want
28:35
to do that over and over. And you don't change everything
28:37
all at once. You do change little things.
28:39
And I'll tell you, you know, as you go forward, next thing you
28:42
know, there's a, there's a lot of positive change over time if
28:46
you're, if you're paying attention to the little ones and
28:48
prioritizing in the right way. And when you think about, you
28:51
know, I mean, habits themselves are incredibly powerful.
28:55
You know what I mean? As is noted in the, in the title
28:57
of the book, what they, they drive your, your behavior in
29:00
really, you know, significant ways.
29:03
And then you think about what, you know, a substance use
29:06
disorder, an addiction is, you know, it's like this habit on
29:09
steroids, you know, it has captured your brain in a very
29:12
different way. So, you know, when I was getting
29:16
sober, you know, early in my early recovery, you know, I kept
29:19
that, you know, very much in the forefront with regard to this is
29:22
the key piece, you know, of behaviorally that I that I have
29:25
to watch out for. But in the meantime, I'm
29:28
building, you know, positive habits, you know, a little bit
29:31
at a time. I'm still doing it, you know, it
29:33
will never end. And there have been habits that
29:35
have been built and have gone away, you know, and, you know,
29:38
I'm constantly trying to figure out what are these things that I
29:40
can do, you know, to, to create, you know, positive behavior and
29:44
make it easier for me to do these things, you know, that,
29:47
that have these wonderful effects.
29:50
But understanding the the the nature of a habit is really
29:53
helpful. Yeah, I mean, in the something
29:56
that I just, I mean, I had 0 discipline before I got sober
30:01
and then all of a sudden I was blessed with discipline to the
30:06
point where, you know, I can drive myself and others around
30:08
me, you know, a little bit crazy about my, you know, I've got to
30:11
meditate, I've got to pray, I've got to call somebody, you know,
30:15
all this stuff. But, you know, that's, I'm
30:18
willing to be a little selfish there just to make sure I am,
30:21
you know, staying on the beam, you know?
30:23
But no one's explaining about that selfishness, right?
30:26
Not really, no, of course. Not, but I mean I can annoy
30:29
people. Better in the end, yeah.
30:31
Yeah, of course. And but, you know, to your
30:33
point, it's, it's what I kind of took from that is that there's
30:37
this sort of spiritual and the, the surrender we were talking
30:41
about of it. All we have to do is change
30:44
everything. You know, they told me, you
30:45
know, and so there's that like kind of general part.
30:48
But then there are these little tiny victories of, you know, 90
30:53
meetings in 90 days. You know what, you know, if
30:55
somebody asked me how I was doing when I'd been out of
30:57
treatment for 25 days, say how you doing?
31:00
I say I've been to 31 meetings in 25 days, that that was how I
31:03
was looking at things. But for me to have these little
31:05
stats I was keeping were these tiny little, little victories
31:10
that were all adding up. And I wasn't really thinking of
31:12
it in the in the bigger terms. I was just trying to like hit
31:15
these little milestones. You know, I was praying everyday
31:18
and starting to meditate twice a day and praying every morning,
31:20
every night and do it and counting meetings and making
31:23
sure I was calling three people every day and these little
31:26
things that I could actually the quantifying and and, you know,
31:29
scratch off my list. So I was doing like these little
31:32
victories, but they were all adding up to this like total new
31:36
way of living. And to your point, like changing
31:39
the way I was thinking, you know that acting myself into right
31:42
thinking instead of just trying to like, think myself into it.
31:45
Yeah, And you know, those things that you were we're doing with
31:50
things you said you would do, you know, and so early in
31:53
recovery, you know, you you say the truth, right?
31:56
You say what you mean and you do what you say.
32:00
And the the positive reinforcement that you get from
32:03
that is huge. And also, you know, you are
32:06
these is many accomplishments, you know, but it all comes down
32:10
to, hey, you know, you said you were going to do this and you're
32:14
doing it because you're taking the suggestion.
32:16
You have gotten to the point of the surrender, you know, full
32:19
acceptance of of this. And as you do that, over time,
32:24
you know, you feel better and better and better, you know, and
32:27
then that becomes a part of how you just live your life, right?
32:31
Exactly. There you go.
32:32
It's the habit that becomes just second nature.
32:36
Yeah, yeah. And I'll tell you, people in
32:39
good recovery are some of the most disciplined people that I
32:43
know, you know, I mean, you can see it in other areas too,
32:45
obviously, you know, I mean, there are there are plenty of
32:47
disciplined people out there. But you know, when you're taking
32:51
something and you're you're, you're really fighting for your
32:53
life in regard to, you know, substance use disorder.
32:56
I mean, you know, we get to really bad places, you know that
33:00
the consequences are, are very real, you know what I mean?
33:03
So, and in order to avoid that you build this level of
33:07
discipline in and and you're doing these things, you know
33:11
over and over that that do compound with regard to their
33:14
effect and and you feel great. Yeah, that's a great, that's a
33:18
great way to describe it to the like compounded interest of
33:21
doing these things. And, you know, and I don't know
33:25
about you, but when I was, there were plenty of days and, you
33:28
know, nights rather where like I would have one or two drinks,
33:31
but they were usually reserved for nights that I was like a
33:35
Monday. And I was so morbidly hungover
33:37
from the weekend that I had to go somewhere where they were
33:39
serving alcohol and I could that's the only thing I could
33:41
stomach. But in general, you know, I like
33:44
to get really drunk, you know, and like, I didn't see the point
33:47
of really just kind of having a couple of drinks, you know, and
33:50
then there's that whole bit, you know, when I enjoyed it, I
33:54
couldn't control it. When I controlled it, I couldn't
33:57
enjoy it, that whole thing. But my, but what I'm trying to
33:59
say is when, when people are newly sober, not even newly,
34:03
just when they kind of tiptoe around the edges and just kind
34:06
of like have the inverse of one or two beers in recovery.
34:10
Like, yeah, go to a meeting here and there and like take a
34:13
suggestion here and there and that kind of buffet.
34:15
That's when I, I just like it. That goes back to the I like to
34:18
feel good. I don't have the, the substances
34:20
and drugs, the drugs and alcohol to make it happen.
34:22
That's why I just kind of do it all, you know, because I want to
34:25
get the most out of it the same way I did out of my buzz.
34:29
Well, it's really great when you see somebody dive in right off
34:31
the bat and say I'm, I'm all in, you know, but it's, it's not the
34:35
norm, you know, without a doubt. It certainly wasn't my case.
34:37
You know what I mean? I, I always describe it as, you
34:40
know, I was auditing, you know, Alcoholics Anonymous auditing,
34:43
you know, this recovery process to see if it was for me, you
34:46
know, and dipping my toe in it. And, and that's fine.
34:49
You know, we tend to learn by experience, not because someone
34:53
else told me this is the way it is, you know, and of course, we
34:55
all have that feeling of, well, I'm unique, I'm different.
34:59
I'm going to do it my way. You know, over time, I think we
35:01
do, you know, start saying, hey, look, you know, why don't we
35:04
take this, you know, massive accumulated knowledge, you know,
35:09
from the rooms and from the field and apply that to me
35:13
because it will probably work. Yeah, but it takes some time to
35:17
get there. So, you know, I, you know, I, it
35:20
did take me, you know, probably when I, from when I knew there
35:23
was a problem in 2008 to when I finally got sober in 2011, you
35:27
know, I kind of went and made all the mistakes along the way
35:30
and I had to prove it to myself. And, you know, and struggled,
35:33
you know, I made things worse and worse.
35:35
And that's gifted desperation was what, you know, I ultimately
35:38
needed to push me over the edge. And then when I, you know, got
35:41
there, I, you know, went fully in.
35:44
And as they say, you know, every alcoholic needs every last drink
35:47
before they get into good recovery, you know, and I and I
35:50
pushed it and needed it. And then to know too, you know,
35:54
as you describe you, the way you drank and stuff, that's not the
35:57
way I drank, you know, I mean, this, yeah.
36:00
This, this disorder looks different in different people.
36:02
You know, I drank trying to titrate whatever, you know,
36:07
alcohol and substances that I was using to the right effect,
36:11
you know, so it wasn't now I do have that kind of disease of
36:15
war, right? I mean, I still have that, you
36:17
know, I still have cravings still, you know, I mean, that's
36:19
all alive. It's just not for, for
36:21
substances and alcohol, you know, but, but yeah, no, I was
36:24
always, you know, I, I did this 'cause I, I just wanted to, to
36:26
feel better and to feel good, you know, So I wasn't looking
36:30
to, you know, get smashed. It was never, you know, just,
36:33
you know, as much as I possibly can.
36:35
And even when I wasn't, you know, using something, I was
36:40
fully under the influence, right?
36:42
I was thinking about it. It was on my brain, you know.
36:44
So whether or not I was impaired, intoxicated, whatever
36:48
you call it, you know I was without a doubt under the
36:51
influence you. Know that's a really interesting
36:54
I've never heard anybody say it just like that, where even even
36:59
when you weren't actively using or drinking, you were still
37:02
under the influence of that. That 'cause I exactly because I
37:05
was either thinking about it, recovering from it, making some
37:09
phone calls, whatever it was, and or, you know, on some level
37:13
it was affecting every bit of my behavior no matter what exactly
37:18
that's I like that. I take it up way too much of my
37:21
brain, you know, all the time. And that's one of the thing that
37:25
I, you know, keep very fresh in my mind, You know, can I go out
37:28
and drink 2 beers tonight? Of course I can.
37:31
You tell me. Of course I can.
37:32
But you know what, that's going to spark something and I want to
37:36
drink tomorrow, you know, and then I want to drink the next
37:39
day and then I want to drink the next day, you know, and that
37:41
will compound. And you know, I just don't want
37:46
it in my life. You know, if I have a surgery or
37:48
anything, I don't want anything. I don't want any, you know,
37:51
opioids in my system, any benzos on my brain for any reason, you
37:55
know, the the best of my ability.
37:56
I'm not saying that at some point I might not have to face
37:58
that and deal with it, but you know, it is so freeing not to
38:03
have that yearn for these things.
38:06
Now, of course, I you know, I love sugar and I love, you know,
38:09
a variety of other things in my life that I that I you're a
38:12
poor. Like I said, I still I still
38:14
have cravings. You know, I was talking about
38:16
that on my anniversary this year that that's just, you know, kind
38:19
of the way I tick, you know, and it's OK, but you know, I've got
38:23
to satisfy those and it is healthier way as I can.
38:27
Yeah, that disease of more. I definitely have it with food.
38:31
I'm very, I'm, I'm very disciplined until I'm not, you
38:34
know, and I, when I, when I have like a cheat day, it's, it goes
38:38
off the rails. And I remember I was, I was with
38:41
my family over Thanksgiving, maybe I was probably 2 years
38:44
sober and, and we had all these desserts, you know, and I just
38:50
went to town and my mom was just watching me.
38:53
What in the world? And I was like, this is kind of
38:58
how I used to drink and use drugs, you know, And it's then
39:02
every now and then I break a little bad with the but it's,
39:04
it's there. And, and I can feel that kind of
39:08
monster coming out when it, you know, and my girlfriend will be
39:11
at dinner when just, you know, I usually won't get dessert.
39:13
But every now and then, if we sort of maybe have a little bit
39:16
of a conversation about she can say she can see a total look in
39:20
my eye that changes. And it's, and that's, that's the
39:24
disease in me. And I mean, thank God, it's
39:26
just, you know, for today over desserts.
39:29
But, you know, I know it's in there.
39:31
Yeah. Yeah, that's, I mean, I, and
39:32
it's funny and I just look at it as best I can without judgement,
39:36
you know, just in a curious way saying up there it is, you know,
39:39
and sometimes, you know, like you said, giving and do it and
39:41
indulging, you know, 'cause it's not 'cause the negative
39:44
consequences aren't immediate and significant, you know, and,
39:49
and then I can, you know, get back on track later, you know,
39:52
and it's OK. Like, you know, we're, we're not
39:53
looking for perfection in in any way, shape or form, you know,
39:56
but you know, it's sort of that constant vigilance, you know,
40:01
and it's it's way beyond in my life, you know, a substance
40:04
because, you know, I don't have. Substance use disorder today, I
40:08
mean, I can have one tomorrow for sure.
40:10
I just don't have 1 today. It's not active.
40:12
That's not active in my life. But there's, there are plenty of
40:14
other things that are that it's just, you know, it's so great to
40:17
have, you know, both the fellowship and, you know, a
40:20
program, you know, meaning for me, the steps, you know, to, to
40:24
change the way I think and behave, you know, I'm so glad I
40:28
have it, you know, and I'm constantly learning new stuff,
40:31
you know, forgetting stuff, hearing it again, learning it
40:35
again, and then learning brand new things, you know, and this
40:38
is that's the, that's the cool, the, the cool piece of this
40:42
being something that we don't graduate from, you know, we get
40:45
to continue to do this. Took the words right out of my
40:47
mouth. Exactly.
40:48
Yep, I love that. And you know, and back to that
40:50
came from my drinking saved from my thinking to your point, you
40:53
know, like out right this second.
40:55
You know, you said I don't have a substance use disorder today,
40:57
but could tomorrow. You know, I, I don't want to
40:59
misquote you, but I think that's basically what we said.
41:01
You know, the way I look at it is, you know, I right now I
41:04
don't have a drinking problem, you know, slash drug problem,
41:07
but I do. I wake up every my, my version
41:09
of the when I wake up every day with untreated alcoholism.
41:12
That's my thinking problem. And the way I treat it is
41:15
through prayer, meditation, talking to others, inventory,
41:18
serve all the, all the stuff we do.
41:20
If I don't take care of that, that will extend to where it
41:25
looks like the drinking problem with with the thinking problem
41:29
would become a drinking problem again, right?
41:31
Yeah, no, I'm, I'm fully aware that it's, it's right there
41:34
around the corner. You know, it can happen in any
41:36
time circumstances change, you know, and that's why I think,
41:39
you know, I'm looking to, to build my recovery, you know, so
41:43
that it can withstand, you know, the difficult times, the crazy
41:46
thoughts, you know, whatever might come in there that you
41:49
know, would drive me or push me in that direction, you know, to
41:52
have a drink. I've got, I've got enough of a
41:53
good recovery in there to not turn in that direction, you
41:57
know, And so it is, it's this constant effort to to maintain
42:03
it. And what ultimately it is, you
42:05
know, if we talk about it in terms of our, you know, what is
42:08
our spiritual condition like at any given moment, you know,
42:10
that's how am I feeling, you know, do I have a sense of
42:13
peace? Do I have, you know, a sense of
42:15
calm? Do I, you know, feel a sense of
42:17
contentment in life, you know, and if, if that's there, I'm in
42:21
good shape. But man, it is it it, you know,
42:24
it takes living in a certain way to do that, you know, And I have
42:29
to say, there's a labor of love, you know, But sometimes it does
42:31
feel like work. Yeah.
42:33
Well, you know, but where it says what we really have is a
42:36
daily reprieve contingent on the maintenance of our spiritual
42:38
condition. So to that point, you know, like
42:42
the only way for me to measure my spiritual condition are is
42:47
through my feelings and really thoughts.
42:50
You know, and I, I can't control my thoughts, but I do have
42:53
control over the maintenance. And when I do the check the list
42:58
every day of all the things on on my maintenance list, that
43:01
usually translates to a, a good spiritual condition.
43:05
And, and if not, then, then I can redouble my efforts in
43:09
certain areas and figure out what is going on.
43:13
I wanted to ask you something though.
43:16
Go ahead. Yeah, as you were saying that, I
43:18
mean, I, I, I think it's important to note, you know, I
43:21
wish I could thank myself, you know, out of, of, of bad
43:24
feelings, you know, and I, I can't now, the the more I
43:29
practice thinking in a, in a, in, in the best way possible,
43:33
the less those negative, you know, feelings, you know, impact
43:36
me. But I have to understand, I
43:40
can't just think out of it. I've got to tolerate some
43:42
distress. I've to sit in it for a little
43:43
while and it will change. You know that this too shall
43:46
pass is such an important thing to note And, and sometimes you
43:50
have to just have patience. You have to ride it out, you
43:53
know, start changing your thinking.
43:55
You know the emotions will follow.
43:57
I'm so glad you brought that up because we've we've sort of
44:00
inadvertently thrown at each other a bunch of slogans and
44:04
cliches and, and a some in a few acronyms.
44:08
You know, we were gift of desperation.
44:11
You know the acronym being God, but you know, they all, all
44:16
these things exist for a reason, these cliches, especially in
44:19
recovery and slogans, but they're but even in outside of
44:22
recovery, they exist because they're true, you know, and for
44:26
sure this too shall pass. The funny thing about that one
44:29
is, you know, I'd heard that before.
44:31
I think there's a George Harrison song all it's similar.
44:34
All things must pass, but it either way, I'd heard this too,
44:37
shall pass, but it when I was going through something, you
44:42
know, I needed to always be reminded that when I got went
44:46
through something that was unpleasant to think about or to
44:48
Mull over or you know, you know that I was that was hanging out
44:53
there. Whatever.
44:55
And so, but then when things are going really well, you know, my
44:59
first thought is, well, this too shall definitely.
45:00
Pass any second. Any second now you know that
45:03
that took me a little while to just sort of not think about
45:06
that so much, but all but when things are not great, be like,
45:09
you know what, this too shall pass and the situation might
45:11
stay the same, but like my interpretation of it and my
45:14
feelings and acceptance surrounding it will pass.
45:18
Yeah, I mean, and, and look, you know, we are talking, you know,
45:23
and, and recoveries, you know, speak, but this is these are
45:26
general truths that work across the board for for anybody,
45:29
anytime, you know, and you can get it outside of recovery.
45:32
I mean, you get it all over the place, right?
45:34
You know, you read a book on stoicism, boom, it's right
45:37
there. You know, I mean, if you read a
45:39
book on leadership, boom, it's right there, you know.
45:41
So this stuff is, it's not, you know, it's not rocket science.
45:45
It's, you know, again, you know, time tested observations, you
45:49
know, and I love the fact that nothing is original.
45:51
You know, all we're doing is we're hearing lots of things and
45:54
trying to figure out ways to interpret them for ourselves.
45:58
That, that, that work. You know, those phrases, though,
46:03
those cliches, you know, these, these, these short little
46:05
phrases, people get annoyed. You can hear them.
46:07
And, you know, I can understand if you're not in a good place,
46:09
they get annoying. But I found, you know, these
46:11
light bulbs went off in recovery when I started to really
46:14
understand what they mean, you know, like, you know, and as I,
46:17
you know, I, I gained this deeper understanding, I was
46:20
like, wow, this is awesome. You know, I'm learning, you
46:23
know, and this learning is making me feel better.
46:26
So it, you know, again, the positive reinforcement to
46:29
continue down this road. And the cool thing is it just
46:31
never ends, you know what I mean?
46:32
I go to, you know, you know, almost always there's, there's
46:36
something in a meeting or interaction, you know, in this,
46:39
in this recovery world we live where I can take something away,
46:43
you know what I mean? And you can learn something from
46:45
anybody, anywhere, at any time, if your ears are, are open, you
46:49
know, if you're listening, if you're paying attention.
46:52
So it's a cool challenge too. For me in my life is, you know,
46:55
how do I and I put them all into the steps somewhere, you know,
46:57
you hear something that all, they all can go somewhere in
46:59
those steps. So I'm building my, you know,
47:01
catalog of how I, how I see the steps, how I, you know,
47:05
interpret them. And how do I, I bring them into
47:06
my life? And what a, what a, you know, a
47:09
cool journey it is, you know, I mean, this is yeah.
47:13
You know, we hear people. I mean, when I heard people say,
47:15
you know, my name is so and so, I'm a grateful alcoholic and
47:18
grateful recovery, I was like, what?
47:20
And. But I get it.
47:22
I mean, I am, you know, I mean, I, I mean I'm who knew, You
47:25
know, it's the greatest club nobody ever wanted to join.
47:27
There's no question about that. We've been.
47:30
Talking about recovery, go ahead.
47:32
Because I wanted to know parts of it when I, you know, got into
47:34
it, you know, No way would you know, if you told me I'd be
47:38
sitting here 20 years ago doing this, I'd be like, you know,
47:41
don't sign me up for that, you know, now absolutely gratitude I
47:45
feel for being a grateful recovering alcoholic.
47:48
Yes. And it's funny you tell that to
47:49
people in early recovery and, and you know, it's not sinking
47:52
in, but you're planting those seeds and saying you will get
47:55
there. You know, those promises do come
47:57
true, you know, Yep. But it just takes time, man.
48:00
It's. Beautiful.
48:02
Well, we've been talking about recovery most of the time.
48:03
What? Tell us what all Ashley does.
48:09
I mean, Ashley, it's you know, it's a pretty cool place because
48:14
you have this, you know, time tested, you know, traditional
48:16
program. It did start off as an
48:18
abstinence based program and then, you know, over time it is
48:22
developed. The idea is, is that we we want
48:24
to have every modality that has been proven to be effective and
48:27
we do, you know, and we do that at a variety of levels of care.
48:30
So we have a residential program, you know, up and haver
48:33
to grace on on the Chesapeake Bay.
48:35
And as you said, we, we do really value the recovery
48:39
environment and that's not just what's around you, but who's
48:42
around you and how they behave. So we really want this, you
48:45
know, healing environment and people, people do come and they
48:48
feel it there. But we beyond residential, you
48:51
know, we have extended care program and we have outpatient
48:56
programming including partial hospitalization, but changing
48:59
the names from an A from an ACM standpoint, but you know,
49:02
partial hospitalization, intensive outpatient and
49:04
outpatient. We have longer term engagement
49:06
with the peers. We really work with our alumni
49:09
to keep them engaged. But the main goal is to keep
49:11
people engaged, you know, in this process for as long as we
49:15
can. And through that they will do
49:17
better. You know, the few things that we
49:19
know, you know, we know that that continued engagement
49:23
produces better results for people, you know, so if we can
49:26
create a continuum for them to be a part of and they want to be
49:30
a part of, it's engaging, you know, at whatever level that
49:33
might be, even through a really active alumni involvement, you
49:36
know, we have and to shepherd people through that process, you
49:40
know, we see that as as great success.
49:43
So that's. Back to the point of like the
49:46
the pilots and you know, the doctors like yourself who were
49:49
coerced into it. But even if it's a little bit
49:52
more of the carrot than the stick to keep people engaged,
49:56
they're just the results are so much better.
49:58
Without a doubt, you know, whatever it is, you know, use
50:01
all mechanisms you possibly can to create engagement, you know,
50:05
and to keep them on the path, you know, and, and you see it,
50:08
you know, people that remain engaged, even if it takes some,
50:11
you know, six months, one year, five years or 10 years, you
50:16
know, eventually people that continue to try and make the
50:20
effort, you know, we'll eventually get there.
50:23
They will get you. Doesn't mean they won't
50:25
necessarily, you know, trip and stumble along the way.
50:28
The nature of the beast, you know, but their, their lives
50:31
improved dramatically, you know, with continued effort.
50:35
Yep. Well, this has been awesome.
50:38
Thank you so much for doing it. Will you do us a favor though,
50:41
and just tell us how to get in touch with Ashley?
50:45
Yeah, I mean, just if you look at ashleytreatment.org, you
50:49
know, is the website and you can go there and has all the
50:53
information you can possibly, you know, want there.
50:57
You could certainly, you know, get in touch with me if anybody
51:00
has a desire. I don't know if you have a way
51:03
to get the information out, but through e-mail, you know, it's,
51:07
it's JG Hobelman, my last name at ashleytreatment.org.
51:13
But yeah, we're, we're easy to find.
51:15
You know, I have a question for you, B.
51:18
Is there another thing? Is there another Fern on the
51:20
other side of you? Are you between?
51:23
I'm in. Front of 1 Fern.
51:26
It's funny, I think you're the first person who's asked that,
51:28
but that's a great question. Yeah, I think I am between 2:00.
51:31
Ferns, there's one in front of me and one behind me.
51:35
Oh, man. This might be a copyright
51:36
infringement. All right, Well, Greg, man,
51:39
thank you so much. Yeah, I, I've really enjoyed
51:42
getting to know you over the last, especially the last few
51:45
months. And, you know, we met a while
51:47
ago, but, and I can't stress this enough, Ashley really has a
51:50
special place in my heart for a lot of reasons.
51:52
The book is called One Step More for anybody who's interested in
51:56
just an amazing story. And I didn't really highlight
51:59
just the part about, about Father Martin and May getting
52:02
sober. I mean, I'm, I mean, I cried
52:04
several times during that book. It's just so not 'cause it's so
52:07
sad. It's just so sweet, you know,
52:09
And Greg, you're a great man and we thank you so much so.
52:14
I really. Appreciate your time today.
52:16
Thank you so much for having me and be been such a pleasure, you
52:19
know getting to know you more and more, you know over the past
52:22
few months now we'll keep it going for sure.
52:24
Thank you for having me. I really appreciate.
52:26
It absolutely. Thank you for being here.
52:27
Cool. If you liked what you heard
52:29
today or just want to know more, give us a call on 9196708119 or
52:35
visit us at newwatersrecovery.com.
52:38
Thank you.