Latest / Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond / Pushkin Honors Juneteenth

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Pushkin Honors Juneteenth · Broken Record with Rick Rubin, Malcolm Gladwell, Bruce Headlam and Justin Richmond

0:15
Speaker 1: Pushkin high listeners at Jacob Weisberg Here, I'm the CEO
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Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. At Pushkin, we think of Juneteenth as
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Speaker 1: an opportunity to reflect on the past and think about
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Speaker 1: the future. How do we build a more just and
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Speaker 1: equitable society. We strive to make podcasts that help to
0:40
Speaker 1: answer that question, and in honor of Juneteenth, we're highlighting
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Speaker 1: two of them. Be Anti Racist is hosted by doctor
0:49
Speaker 1: Ibram X Kendy, an author, professor, activist, and historian. His
0:54
Speaker 1: book How to Be an Anti Racist has become a
0:57
Speaker 1: guide for anyone interested in dismantling the structures that racism creates.
1:03
Speaker 1: The podcast gives him a chance to dive deep into
1:05
Speaker 1: issues like immigration, to sports, and voting rights with guests
1:09
Speaker 1: like Julian Castro and Jamel Hill. Who're going to You're
1:13
Speaker 1: An excerpt from a conversation doctor Kendy had recently with
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Speaker 1: author and political analyst Heather cmghee. They focus on the
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Speaker 1: economic costs of racism for everyone, not just those in
1:24
Speaker 1: black or brown communities, and how diversity can lead to
1:28
Speaker 1: economic prosperity for all. Then you'll hear a truly remarkable
1:32
Speaker 1: story of bridging racial divides. Darrell Davis is a black
1:36
Speaker 1: jazz musician who has convinced hundreds of KKK members to
1:40
Speaker 1: leave the clan. It all started with one conversation in
1:44
Speaker 1: a jazz club because Darrell was interested in understanding people
1:48
Speaker 1: with wildly different views. Darrell appeared on A Slight Change
1:52
Speaker 1: of Plans, a podcast hosted by doctor Maya Shankar. Shankar
1:56
Speaker 1: is a cognitive scientist who's fascinated by what happens when
1:59
Speaker 1: we find ourselves at the brink of change, and she's
2:03
Speaker 1: got a knack for getting people, including Hillary Clinton and
2:06
Speaker 1: Tiffany Hattisch to open up to her. Here's Doctor Kendy
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Speaker 1: on Be Anti Racist Welcome to Be Anti Racist in
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Speaker 1: Action podcasts where we discuss how to diagnose, dismantle, and
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Speaker 1: abolish racism, how to save humanity from the divisiveness of
2:30
Speaker 1: racist ideas and the destructiveness of racist power and policy,
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Speaker 1: How to free humanity through the unity of anti racist
2:38
Speaker 1: ideas and the constructiveness of anti racist power and policy.
2:44
Speaker 1: On b Anti Racist, we discuss how to make the
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Speaker 1: impossible possible and how to bring into being what modern
2:52
Speaker 1: humans have never known, a just and equitable world. You ready,
2:59
Speaker 1: Let's roll in the night thirties and forties, the United
3:11
Speaker 1: States went on a nationwide building boom of public amenities
3:14
Speaker 1: funded by tax dollars, which in Montgomery, Alabama, included the
3:19
Speaker 1: Oak Park Pool, which was the grandest one for miles,
3:24
Speaker 1: except the Oak Park Pool was for whites only. When
3:29
Speaker 1: a federal court finally deemed this unconstitutional, the reaction of
3:34
Speaker 1: the town council was swift. They decided they would drain
3:38
Speaker 1: the public pool rather than let black families swim to
3:44
Speaker 1: They never rebuilt the pool. Racism has a cost for everyone.
3:52
Speaker 1: HEATHERN McGee is an expert in economic and social policy
3:56
Speaker 1: and the author of the best selling book To Some
3:59
Speaker 1: of Us, What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can
4:02
Speaker 1: Prosper Together. Heather explodes one of the greatest racial myths,
4:09
Speaker 1: that white people lose as people of color gain. She
4:13
Speaker 1: shows that as racism wins, we all lose. Heather is
4:19
Speaker 1: one of America's sharpest thinkers. The former president of the
4:22
Speaker 1: inequality focused think Take Demos and its drafted legislation, testified
4:28
Speaker 1: before Congress, and contributed regularly to new shows, including NBC's
4:33
Speaker 1: Meet the Press. She now chairs the board of Color
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Speaker 1: of Change, the nation's largest online racial Justice organization. I
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Speaker 1: sat down with Heather McGee recently to learn how by
4:46
Speaker 1: investing in each other we can all achieve better jobs,
4:50
Speaker 1: better health, better democracy, better schools, better neighborhoods for our kids,
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Speaker 1: and so much more. Heather is always is truly an
5:01
Speaker 1: honor to speak with you. Your book, The Some of
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Speaker 1: Us is the type of book that I learned from
5:09
Speaker 1: that I think many Americans and many people around the
5:12
Speaker 1: world can learn from. I wrote this book because I
5:15
Speaker 1: felt like we were missing something in the great pursuit
5:20
Speaker 1: of a society. It should be to have progress, to
5:23
Speaker 1: have people have less want and more joy, people to
5:28
Speaker 1: have more of the fruits of economic progress and technological progress,
5:35
Speaker 1: and for our problems to be solved generation after generation, right,
5:39
Speaker 1: And it felt like that progress was slowing down, slash reversing.
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Speaker 1: When some Americans imagine the transformation of this country, they
5:52
Speaker 1: imagine that they're going to lose if we actually create
5:55
Speaker 1: inequitable and just anti racist America. And it seems, as
6:00
Speaker 1: you've written, that that's based on a zero sum myth.
6:04
Speaker 1: So I left a career in economic policy to go
6:08
Speaker 1: out on the quixotic journey in some ways to find
6:14
Speaker 1: the answer to the question of why can't we seem
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Speaker 1: to have nice things? And what are the roots of
6:18
Speaker 1: our dysfunction? And it's there that I came upon this
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Speaker 1: paradigm of the zero sum. It's a term that means
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Speaker 1: there's no such thing as mutual progress when you have
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Speaker 1: people who are in a competition with one another. If
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Speaker 1: Team A scores one more point, team B scores one
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Speaker 1: less point, the points will always add up to zero,
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Speaker 1: positive on one side, negative on the other. Progress for
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Speaker 1: team A has to come at the expense of team B.
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Speaker 1: There's a limited or fixed pie. And that idea resonated
6:54
Speaker 1: so deeply with me. It sort of gave a name
6:56
Speaker 1: and a description to something I had sensed my whole life,
7:00
Speaker 1: this fear that when white supremacy falls, that the world
7:09
Speaker 1: will become one that white people should fear. Therefore, racism
7:15
Speaker 1: is really great for white people, really terrible for people
7:18
Speaker 1: of color, and so their self interest is in preserving
7:22
Speaker 1: racism at all costs. And it's the at all costs
7:25
Speaker 1: piece that really felt so important for me to lay out,
7:29
Speaker 1: what are the costs of racism to our entire society,
7:34
Speaker 1: What exactly is the price white people are willing to
7:38
Speaker 1: pay to keep the system as it has been. And
7:42
Speaker 1: once I started looking, the list just kept growing, and
7:47
Speaker 1: that made it clear to me that we have these
7:49
Speaker 1: self interested elites packaging marketing, selling this zero sum lie
7:55
Speaker 1: to most white Americans, and they're doing it for their
7:59
Speaker 1: own profit. But our side, when we only talk about
8:04
Speaker 1: racism as something that's good for white people, are kind
8:06
Speaker 1: of like helping out a little bit, right provocation. The
8:10
Speaker 1: agitation that made me feel like, Okay, maybe I do
8:12
Speaker 1: have something to add to this conversation was we haven't
8:15
Speaker 1: told the full story of what it has cost this
8:18
Speaker 1: entire country. You were specifically writing about white folks who
8:23
Speaker 1: think that they're going to lose, But as a man
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Speaker 1: of color reading it, I also think men of color
8:30
Speaker 1: too have bought into this myth of the zero sum,
8:35
Speaker 1: and I think that as they've seen women of color
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Speaker 1: organizing and advocating in some cases rising, they too have
8:44
Speaker 1: felt threatened as if they're losing. Yeah, but back to
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Speaker 1: white folks, this is what I've been sort of saying,
8:49
Speaker 1: and I want to know whether I'm just wrong that
8:53
Speaker 1: white Americans typically compare their lot two people of color,
9:00
Speaker 1: and so, in other words, if their school has more
9:03
Speaker 1: resources in a way, their child's school is almost like
9:08
Speaker 1: a first class school. They're like, whoa, if we create equity,
9:11
Speaker 1: then I'm gonna be back in coach. Yeah. I don't
9:13
Speaker 1: want that. I'm gonna lose. My kid's gonna lose. But
9:16
Speaker 1: it seems to me that white Americans should be assessing
9:20
Speaker 1: themselves from other white people in the Western world. Yeah,
9:24
Speaker 1: and when they make that comparison, that's when they can
9:28
Speaker 1: see actually what they don't have, how they're in coach.
9:32
Speaker 1: That's right, And in fact, maybe in other societies in
9:36
Speaker 1: the Western world, everybody's just in first class. There's no
9:40
Speaker 1: little curtain that the flight attendant moves over. Right, everyone
9:43
Speaker 1: gets food, right, everyone has a leg room, you know,
9:46
Speaker 1: everybody gets to bring a bag. You know. This really
9:50
Speaker 1: comes from and is a feature of how brutally hierarchical
9:54
Speaker 1: our society is. In the first chapter of the Some
9:57
Speaker 1: of Us, I go back in our history. I am
9:59
Speaker 1: I am like somebody else here on this conversation. I'm
10:02
Speaker 1: not in the story, but I felt like I had
10:04
Speaker 1: to go to the beginning to find out where this
10:08
Speaker 1: zero s worldview and this lie came from, whose interest
10:12
Speaker 1: it served, and why it sort of reanimated generation after generation.
10:16
Speaker 1: And as it turns out, it was created as a
10:20
Speaker 1: way to sort of discipline white Europeans in the colonial
10:26
Speaker 1: era to be satisfied with their lot in a society
10:32
Speaker 1: where wealth was still quite concentrated, and where, because of
10:37
Speaker 1: chattel slavery in a plantation economy, there actually wasn't a
10:40
Speaker 1: lot of room a white person who was not a
10:44
Speaker 1: plantation owner. Their labor wasn't needed in the southern economy, right, Like,
10:49
Speaker 1: what do we need you for? Right? This myth of
10:52
Speaker 1: white supremacy was sold to white masses so that they
10:56
Speaker 1: could have, of course, as WB. Devoy said, the psychological
11:00
Speaker 1: wages of whiteness rather than material wages, and those psychological
11:04
Speaker 1: wayses were knowing always that in a deeply unequal economy
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Speaker 1: they could nonetheless count on being more than and better
11:14
Speaker 1: than Black people. Now hang on for the amazing story
11:22
Speaker 1: of Darryll Davis from a slight change of plans. So,
11:29
Speaker 1: I was riding in my car. I'm driving, and this
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Speaker 1: klansman was sitting in my passenger seat, and we got
11:36
Speaker 1: on the topic of a crime, and he made the
11:40
Speaker 1: mention that black people are born with a gene that
11:45
Speaker 1: makes them violent, and I said, look, I'm as black
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Speaker 1: as anybody you've ever seen. I have never done a
11:53
Speaker 1: drive by or a car jacking. How do you explain
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Speaker 1: that this man did not hesitate one second? He answered
12:01
Speaker 1: me instantly, He said, your gene is latent. It hasn't
12:04
Speaker 1: come out yet. That's Darryll Davis, a blues musician. And yeah,
12:09
Speaker 1: you heard him right. He's driving in his car with
12:12
Speaker 1: a member of the Ku Klux Klan. You know, I
12:15
Speaker 1: was speechless. I was dumbfounded. And he's sitting next to
12:19
Speaker 1: me with all smug and securely. Huh. You see, you
12:21
Speaker 1: know you have nothing to say. And I thought about
12:24
Speaker 1: it for a moment rather than attack him, you say
12:27
Speaker 1: it's not true. It's not true. I said to him,
12:30
Speaker 1: I said, you know, white people have a gene within
12:34
Speaker 1: them that make them serial killers. And he said, why
12:39
Speaker 1: would you say that. I said, well, face it, name
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Speaker 1: me three black serial killers. He thought about it. He
12:46
Speaker 1: couldn't name anybody. You couldn't do it, I rattled off.
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Speaker 1: Charles Manson, Jeffrey Dalmer, Henry Lee Lucas, John Wayne Gacy,
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Speaker 1: Ted Bundy, David Burklew, son of Sam, Albert de Salvo
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Speaker 1: the Boston Strangler. And I said, son, you are a
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Speaker 1: serial killer. And he said, Darrell, I've never killed anybody.
13:07
Speaker 1: I said, your genus legend hasn't come out yet. He said, well,
13:10
Speaker 1: that's stupid, and I said, well, duh, it is stupid.
13:15
Speaker 1: And he got very, very quiet, and I could tell
13:19
Speaker 1: that the gears in his head were spinning super fast,
13:23
Speaker 1: probably you know, burning a hole in there. And then
13:25
Speaker 1: he a moment later he changed the subject. But within
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Speaker 1: five months this guy quit the Ku Klux Klan. Since
13:34
Speaker 1: that car ride thirty years ago, Daryl Davis has gone
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Speaker 1: on to convince dozens of people to leave the Ku
13:40
Speaker 1: Klux Klan. Convincing someone else to change their minds their
13:43
Speaker 1: view of reality is one of the most elusive, coveted
13:47
Speaker 1: types of change, which is why Darryl's story feels so improbable.
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Speaker 1: So how does he do it? I'm Maya Shunker. As
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Speaker 1: a cognitive scientist, I've always been fascinated by how we
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Speaker 1: change our minds and why we change our minds. On
14:02
Speaker 1: this show, I'll have intimate conversations with people who've navigated
14:05
Speaker 1: extraordinary change, and hopefully their stories will get us to
14:09
Speaker 1: think differently about change in our own lives. This is
14:13
Speaker 1: a slight change of plans, our constitution, our constru Darrel
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Speaker 1: didn't set out to change anyone's mind. He was mostly
14:40
Speaker 1: just focused on his music. But one night his life
14:43
Speaker 1: took an unexpected turn when he was playing a show
14:45
Speaker 1: at a bar called the Silver Dollar Lounge. The Silver
14:53
Speaker 1: Dollar Lounge at the time was an all white lounge.
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Speaker 1: And I say that not meaning that black people could
14:58
Speaker 1: not go in, but meaning that they did not go
15:01
Speaker 1: in by their own choice because they were not welcome there.
15:04
Speaker 1: And when you go somewhere where you're not welcome and
15:08
Speaker 1: alcohol hall is being served, sometimes it does not make
15:11
Speaker 1: for a good combination, especially when you're out and numbered.
15:14
Speaker 1: So we took a break after the first set, and
15:17
Speaker 1: I was walking across the dance floor to go sit
15:19
Speaker 1: you with the bandmates when somebody approached me from behind
15:23
Speaker 1: and put their arm around my shoulder. No, I don't
15:25
Speaker 1: know anybody in this place, so I'm turning around to
15:27
Speaker 1: see who's touching me, and it was this gentleman, maybe
15:30
Speaker 1: fifteen eighteen years older than me, and he's all excited.
15:33
Speaker 1: He says, man, I sure like your piano playing. This
15:36
Speaker 1: is the first time I ever heard of black man
15:38
Speaker 1: play piano like Jerry Lee Lewis, and I told him.
15:42
Speaker 1: I said, well, Jerry Lee got it from the same
15:43
Speaker 1: place I did, from black blues and boogie woogie piano players.
15:48
Speaker 1: Oh no, no no, no, no, I never heard no black
15:50
Speaker 1: man play like that except for you. Jerry Lee invented
15:52
Speaker 1: that style. I said, look, I know Jerry Lee Lewis.
15:55
Speaker 1: He's a good friend of mine. He's told me himself
15:57
Speaker 1: where he had learned how to play. The guy didn't
15:59
Speaker 1: buy that either, but he was so fascinated with me
16:02
Speaker 1: that he wanted me to come back to his table.
16:05
Speaker 1: He's want to buy me a drink, so I don't drink,
16:07
Speaker 1: but I agreed to have a cranberry juice. He bought it,
16:09
Speaker 1: paid the waitress, and then he took his glass and
16:12
Speaker 1: he clinked my glass and cheered me, and then he announces,
16:16
Speaker 1: you know, this is the first time I ever sat
16:18
Speaker 1: down with a black man and had a drink. So innocently,
16:21
Speaker 1: I asked him why, and he didn't answer me at first.
16:24
Speaker 1: I asked him again, and his buddy sitting next to
16:27
Speaker 1: him elbowed him and said tell him, tell him, And
16:29
Speaker 1: the guy looked at me and said, I'm a member
16:33
Speaker 1: the Ku Klux Klan. Well I burst out laughing at
16:37
Speaker 1: him because now I do not believe him. I thought
16:40
Speaker 1: he was putting the joke on me. I'm laughing. He
16:43
Speaker 1: goes inside his pocket, pulls out his wallet, flips through it,
16:46
Speaker 1: and hands me his clan membership card. I recognized the
16:50
Speaker 1: clan insignia, which is a red circle with a white
16:52
Speaker 1: cross and a red blood drop in the center of
16:55
Speaker 1: the cross, and I'm thinking myself, oh my goodness, you
16:58
Speaker 1: know this is for real. So I stopped laughing. But
17:01
Speaker 1: he was, you know, very friendly and very appreciative of
17:06
Speaker 1: my music and all excited. He gave me his phone
17:09
Speaker 1: number to you know, to call him whenever I was
17:13
Speaker 1: to return to this bar with this band, and so
17:16
Speaker 1: I'd called him every six weeks and say, hey, man,
17:18
Speaker 1: you know I'm down there at the Silver Dollar this
17:19
Speaker 1: week and come on out. You say, it's so nonchalantly
17:22
Speaker 1: like so I called the guy. It is remarkable that
17:25
Speaker 1: you called this person. And you know, I don't think
17:28
Speaker 1: I'm alone in struggling to understand, you know, what was
17:31
Speaker 1: going through through your mind at this moment. If someone
17:34
Speaker 1: told me that they were in the freaking clan. I
17:37
Speaker 1: would certainly not call them back. In fact, I'd probably
17:41
Speaker 1: just flee the scene. And I think this is for
17:43
Speaker 1: pretty good reasons. Well, you know, I was questioning myself
17:48
Speaker 1: for a second, like what the heck am I doing
17:50
Speaker 1: sitting here with a klansman. But the guy was friendly.
17:54
Speaker 1: He disputed the things that I had in mind of
17:58
Speaker 1: the image over typical klansmen, and he wanted to share
18:01
Speaker 1: my music with some of his fellow clansmen and clanswomen.
18:05
Speaker 1: And they would, you know, get on the dancelore and
18:07
Speaker 1: danceloor I'm music. You know they didn't come in rope
18:09
Speaker 1: and hoods, right, you know, they came in regular street clothes.
18:12
Speaker 1: This goes on for a year, an entire year. Darrell
18:16
Speaker 1: would play a gig at this bar, and he would
18:18
Speaker 1: invite clan members to watch him play. This is one
18:21
Speaker 1: of those things that makes Darrell so unusual. I mean,
18:25
Speaker 1: for me, a huge part of what makes someone who
18:28
Speaker 1: they are is their belief system. And so if we
18:31
Speaker 1: share the same taste in music, that's fine, that's great.
18:35
Speaker 1: But if I then find out they're a flagrant racist,
18:38
Speaker 1: that's going to fully eclipse everything else about them. So
18:42
Speaker 1: how does Darrell look past that, he says, It's not
18:46
Speaker 1: like that. He wasn't looking past it. He wanted to
18:49
Speaker 1: learn from it. See, Darrell had spent his early childhood
18:52
Speaker 1: overseas in a school he describes as a United Nations
18:56
Speaker 1: for little kids. Race was always in the background, But
19:00
Speaker 1: when he moved back to the States when he was ten,
19:03
Speaker 1: he couldn't escape racism, and ever since then he's been
19:06
Speaker 1: interested in why people hate. I had had an experience
19:11
Speaker 1: at the age of ten where some racist people threw
19:14
Speaker 1: rocks and bottles at me during a parade in which
19:16
Speaker 1: I was the only black participant, and never having had
19:20
Speaker 1: this happened to me before, I was perplexed as to
19:23
Speaker 1: why people were doing this, And when later my parents
19:26
Speaker 1: explained that it was racism, my ten year old brain
19:29
Speaker 1: could not process the idea that someone who had never
19:32
Speaker 1: seen me before, who had never spoken with me, and
19:35
Speaker 1: knew nothing about me, would want to inflict pain upon
19:38
Speaker 1: me for no other reason than the color of my skin.
19:41
Speaker 1: You know, that just did not compete with me. Well later,
19:44
Speaker 1: when I realized this was true, there are people like that,
19:47
Speaker 1: I formed a question in my mind, which was, how
19:50
Speaker 1: can you hate me when you don't even know me,
19:52
Speaker 1: And some people would just say, well, Darrel, you know
19:54
Speaker 1: that's just the way it is. Well, no, it's not
19:56
Speaker 1: just the way it is. There has to be a
19:58
Speaker 1: reason behind it. Well it's always been that way. That
20:02
Speaker 1: was not good enough for me. I wanted to get
20:04
Speaker 1: to the nucleus of it. So Darrell dedicates himself to
20:07
Speaker 1: answering this question. He devours books about race and racism.
20:12
Speaker 1: He reads nearly every book that exists on the clan,
20:15
Speaker 1: but he's still unsatisfied, so he decides he wants to
20:18
Speaker 1: write his own book about the clan. All the books
20:22
Speaker 1: written on the clan except for mine, have been written
20:26
Speaker 1: by white authors. You know, white authors obviously have an
20:29
Speaker 1: easier time getting in contact with the clan and sitting
20:32
Speaker 1: down and not fearing any ramifications or whatever, or they
20:35
Speaker 1: might even join the clan undercover. A clansman would have
20:39
Speaker 1: a different perspective sitting there talking to a black person
20:42
Speaker 1: than he would a white person. And how do you
20:45
Speaker 1: feel that perspective would have been different because he's sitting
20:49
Speaker 1: there telling the person that he hates why he hates them.
20:52
Speaker 1: So now he's having to face me and face those
20:55
Speaker 1: same questions. You know that somebody would ask or even
20:58
Speaker 1: different questions that a white interviewer journalist would not ask
21:03
Speaker 1: because they don't think of him, because they don't feel
21:05
Speaker 1: the things the same things that I feel. As Darrell
21:08
Speaker 1: starts read searching for his book, it suddenly dawns on
21:11
Speaker 1: him he already knows someone in the clan, that guy
21:15
Speaker 1: from the Silver Dollar Lounge. So he goes on a
21:17
Speaker 1: mission to track him down. It takes a while, but
21:20
Speaker 1: eventually he finds the guy's address. And I knocked on
21:24
Speaker 1: the door, you know, unannounced, and he opens the door
21:27
Speaker 1: and sees me, goes, Darrel, you know, what are you
21:29
Speaker 1: doing here? And look, he looked up and down the
21:31
Speaker 1: hallway to see if I brought anybody with me. So
21:34
Speaker 1: it was more of him that who was intimidated than me.
21:36
Speaker 1: And when he stepped out of his apartment, I stepped in.
21:40
Speaker 1: So he turns around, comes back in. So now we're
21:43
Speaker 1: standing inside his apartment and he says, you know what's
21:45
Speaker 1: going on? Are you still playing? What's going on? I said, yeah, yeah, yeah,
21:48
Speaker 1: I'm still playing. But listen, I need to talk to
21:51
Speaker 1: you about the clan. He says, the clan. I said, yeah.
21:54
Speaker 1: He goes well, I quit, Yeah, I quit a while back.
21:57
Speaker 1: I said, well, you know, where's all your clan stuff?
22:00
Speaker 1: He says, well, they came and got it. And I said,
22:03
Speaker 1: what do you mean they came and got your robin hood?
22:05
Speaker 1: You know, don't you own it? And he explained to me,
22:07
Speaker 1: when you joined the clan, if you have the money
22:10
Speaker 1: to pay for it, you can purchase your robin hood
22:12
Speaker 1: and it's yours to keep forever. If you cannot afford
22:15
Speaker 1: it at the time, you can still take it home
22:17
Speaker 1: with you, but you put a little extra money in
22:20
Speaker 1: every time you pay your dues until you pay it off,
22:23
Speaker 1: sort like layaway kind of thing. The bizarre financial lead
22:26
Speaker 1: system within the clan. Love it, yes, exactly, equal opportunity
22:29
Speaker 1: for everyone who's racist, that's right, okay, absolutely so. Anyway,
22:34
Speaker 1: he said that they came and got it, but when
22:38
Speaker 1: they came to get it, he could not find the mask,
22:41
Speaker 1: and he has since found it and he needed to
22:44
Speaker 1: return it. I said, what can I see it? So
22:47
Speaker 1: he goes down the hallway, comes back and hands me
22:49
Speaker 1: the mask and I said to him, I said, do
22:52
Speaker 1: you know Roger Kelly? He goes, yeah, Roger was my
22:55
Speaker 1: grand dragon. I know him. And I said, well, listen,
22:57
Speaker 1: I need you to hook me up with mister Kelly.
23:00
Speaker 1: I want you to interview him. I'm going to write
23:01
Speaker 1: a book on the clan. Now, let me explain how
23:04
Speaker 1: the hierarchy of the clan works. You understand these terms
23:07
Speaker 1: we would call a state leader of governor. They call
23:10
Speaker 1: that the Grand Dragon a mayor. That person is known
23:13
Speaker 1: as the exalted Cyclops. Anybody on the great level is Yeah,
23:17
Speaker 1: it's very self importance of these names, that's yeah. But
23:22
Speaker 1: see that's also what attracts people because you know, they
23:25
Speaker 1: get titles, they feel imported. Yes, it's a sense of
23:28
Speaker 1: self importance, you know, because they're not getting that from
23:31
Speaker 1: the society in which they live. So you know, this brotherhood,
23:34
Speaker 1: this gang, if you will, gives him those things. So
23:38
Speaker 1: at the time, Roger Kelly was the Grand Dragon state
23:40
Speaker 1: leader from Maryland. So I said, I'll tell you what
23:43
Speaker 1: you need to return this mask, right He said, yeah.
23:46
Speaker 1: I said, give me Roger Kelly's phone member and his
23:48
Speaker 1: address and I'll go and return it for you. And
23:51
Speaker 1: he snapped that thing right out of my hand and said,
23:53
Speaker 1: in no way. And so I begged and plead it
23:56
Speaker 1: with him. Well, he finally gave it to me on
23:59
Speaker 1: the condition that I not revealed him mister Kelly where
24:01
Speaker 1: I got it, and he warned me. He said, Darrel,
24:05
Speaker 1: do not go to Roger Kelly's house. Roger Kelly will
24:07
Speaker 1: kill you. And I said, well, that's that's the whole
24:10
Speaker 1: reason why I need to talk to mister Kelly. I know,
24:13
Speaker 1: why would he kill me? What is going on in
24:16
Speaker 1: his mind when he sees me. I have to understand this.
24:20
Speaker 1: You did realize that you might not get the answer
24:22
Speaker 1: to the question if, in fact the dangerous part happened first. Right, true,
24:28
Speaker 1: this is true, But but I was thinking, you know
24:31
Speaker 1: that I would I would prevail. I'm the eternal optimist
24:35
Speaker 1: if you will, Well, I am not the eternal optimist.
24:38
Speaker 1: And Darryll's decision feels incredibly risky. But anyway, he has
24:43
Speaker 1: a secretary Mary call and schedule the interview, and he
24:47
Speaker 1: gives her one important instruction, do not tell him that
24:51
Speaker 1: I'm black, and see if you would consent to sitting
24:54
Speaker 1: down and giving her boss an interview. I figured, you know,
24:58
Speaker 1: he might pick up in my voice that I'm black,
25:00
Speaker 1: and I didn't want him to hang up the phone,
25:03
Speaker 1: say am I talking to you, and my whole project
25:05
Speaker 1: would have ended before they ever got started. Roger Kelly
25:08
Speaker 1: agrees to meet for an interview one evening at a
25:11
Speaker 1: nearby motel. Darrel gets to the motel early with Mary.
25:15
Speaker 1: He's not sure if Roger will even agree to step
25:18
Speaker 1: foot in the room, but if he does, Darrel wants
25:21
Speaker 1: to be hospitable. He asked Mary to fill up the
25:23
Speaker 1: ice bucket and buy some sodas and then they start
25:26
Speaker 1: arranging the room. There's not much to arrange. There's the
25:30
Speaker 1: ice bucket, a table, two chairs, and Darrell's canvas bag
25:34
Speaker 1: which has his tape recorder and a Bible. The clan
25:37
Speaker 1: claims to be a Christian organization and they claim that
25:40
Speaker 1: the Bible preaches are racial separation. Now, in my reading
25:44
Speaker 1: of the Bible, I have never seen anything like that
25:46
Speaker 1: in there. So I want to be able to pull
25:48
Speaker 1: up my Bible and hand it to him and say, here,
25:50
Speaker 1: mister Kelly, please show me chapter and verse where it
25:55
Speaker 1: says blacksom whites must be separate. So I'm all prepared,
25:58
Speaker 1: right right on time, right to the minute. Five fifteen knock, knock,
26:02
Speaker 1: knock on the door. In Waltz, what is known as
26:05
Speaker 1: the Grand Nighthawk. Nighthawk means bodyguard security. He's dressed in
26:11
Speaker 1: military camouflage, and he has that clan patch on his
26:15
Speaker 1: chest on one side on the other side of his
26:17
Speaker 1: chest or the initials cakak and embroidered on his cap
26:21
Speaker 1: and said Knights of the ku Klux Klan, and on
26:24
Speaker 1: his hip. He had a semi automatic handgun in a holster.
26:28
Speaker 1: He comes in. Mister Kelly is walking directly behind him,
26:32
Speaker 1: carrying a briefcase in a dark blue suit and tie,
26:35
Speaker 1: and the Nighthawk turned the corner and saw me and
26:39
Speaker 1: just froze in his trap. So mister Kelly slammed into
26:43
Speaker 1: his back and knocked this guy forward. And now that
26:46
Speaker 1: they both are stumbling around trying to regain their balance,
26:49
Speaker 1: and they're like looking all around the room like somebody's
26:52
Speaker 1: not right here. And I'm just sitting at the table
26:55
Speaker 1: looking at their faces, and I could read their faces
26:58
Speaker 1: like a billboard. Their faces were saying to me, did
27:02
Speaker 1: the desk kirk give us the wrong room number? Do
27:04
Speaker 1: you do? Do we misunderstand something or is this an ambush?
27:07
Speaker 1: So you know, I saw the APPREHENDI and so I
27:10
Speaker 1: stood up and I displayed both of my palms to
27:13
Speaker 1: show I had nothing in my hands, and I walked forward.
27:16
Speaker 1: I extended my right hand and I said, Hi, mister Kelly.
27:19
Speaker 1: I'm Darryl Davis. I hope both of these conversations inspired
27:35
Speaker 1: thinking and conversation around issues of race. You can find
27:38
Speaker 1: more episodes of b Anti Racist and A Slight Change
27:41
Speaker 1: of Plans wherever you get your podcasts