Latest / Wrongful Conviction Podcasts / 597: #597 Maggie Freleng with Gwen Graham

Transcript

597: #597 Maggie Freleng with Gwen Graham · Wrongful Conviction Podcasts

• 00:00:00 Speaker 1: The episode you're about to hear was originally released in 2023 and hosted by Maggie Freeling. It's the story of Gwen Graham, who has now spent more than 37 long years in a Michigan prison for murders they've always maintained never even happened. And a note for listeners. When Maggie interviewed Gwen, Gwen identified as a woman. They now identify as a trans man. Gwen was convicted back in 1989 of killing five elderly patients at the nursing home where they worked. But the case rested largely on the testimony of Gwen's former girlfriend, Kathy Wood, who claimed that she and Gwen had smothered patients as part of a so-called lover's pact. Now, despite the lack of physical evidence of any kind of smothering, Gwen was sentenced to life without prey. Meanwhile, Kathy took a plea deal, testified against Gwen and was released on parole back in 2020. But Gwen remains incarcerated. And the prison where Gwen is being held, Women's Huron Valley Correctional Facility, Michigan's only prison for women, is now facing serious scrutiny of its own. Toxic mold has been making prisoners sick, and several women have even died from the combination of the mold and receiving substandard medical care The problem has grown dire. Incarcerated women and their families have joined forces with elected officials, advocates, and even former guards to bring the horrific conditions to the public's attention. The issue has now reached federal court. So, as Glenn continues their long fight for freedom, their story provides a window into what it means to grow old inside the prison system, especially in a prison like Huron Valley. And now, here's Maggie Preling with Gwen Graham. 00:01:54 Speaker 2: A warning for listeners, this episode contains discussion of suicide. Please listen with caution and care. In 1987, Gwen Graham was 23 years old and had high hopes and dreams for her future. She was a natural caretaker and wanted to be a veterinarian. After moving across the country to Michigan, she went to work at a nursing home called Alpine Manor. Gwen liked it there. She enjoyed her coworkers and loved helping people. Gwen met a woman named Kathy, who also worked at the nursing home, and they started a relationship. During that time, some of the patients at Alpine Manor passed away. It wasn't unusual, though. Many of the residents were elderly or in poor health and died of natural causes. But months later, after Gwen had broken up with Kathy, she learned that Kathy had accused her of doing the unthinkable. 00:02:57 Speaker 3: One thing I know, the police are coming down to talk to me. They told me, they said, your ex-girlfriend said that you killed somebody at the nursing home. And I laughed at him. I said, I can't believe you came down here for that bullshit. But then when they charged me with four more, that's when I started losing it. My name is Gwendolyn Graham. I've been incarcerated in Michigan for 35 years for something that I didn't do, that didn't even happen. 00:03:31 Speaker 2: From Lava for Good, this is Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. Today, Gwen Graham. 00:03:37 Speaker 4: Lava for Good. 00:03:56 Speaker 2: Gwendolyn Gail Graham was born in Santa Maria, California on August 6, 1963, to Mack Wade and Linda Ruth Graham. 00:04:06 Speaker 3: I had a normal upbringing. I went to public school. I have a younger sister, Corina, and an older brother, Robert. We were always at the beach. My dad used to take us down there. He had bought an old vintage truck. And those kids would be on the back of the trucker, like on the sideboards and stuff, and he'd be driving around the dunes. He'd let his kids drive, so we felt grown up and everything. 00:04:37 Speaker 2: Gwen and her siblings were growing up on a farm just a few miles from the beach. 00:04:41 Speaker 3: We had chickens in the backyard, and it was fun to have the little chicks when they'd be born. We'd turn the eggs in the incubator and stuff. We had a duck. They would follow you around just like a puppy dog would. 00:04:55 Speaker 2: Gwen's younger sister, Karina, remembers how Gwen loved and cared for these animals. 00:05:01 Speaker 4: Watching her take care of her animals and her little pig, Petunia. She loved that little pig. You know, she had a dog named Mitzi, and she loved that little animal. So she was always very compassionate. 00:05:22 Speaker 2: But while Gwen cared for everything and everyone around her, She was struggling with herself. 00:05:29 Speaker 3: I didn't really know what to ask or what was going on. I just felt like there was something. It just made me feel real different. Probably around seven, six and seven, because I liked girls. And I knew then that there was something wrong with that because you're supposed to like little boys and I didn't like little girls. And I didn't know what it was. I just knew that it was different and I kept it to myself. 00:05:55 Speaker 2: Especially because her family was pretty conservative. They were religious, and in their world, being gay was taboo. 00:06:03 Speaker 3: My parents had put us in a private Christian school, and my uncle was the head administrator there. And I remember at some point, there was a discussion about homosexuality, and it was certainly not in a favorable light, and I realized at that time that that was me. And I had a friend at school, and I went and talked to her, and I told her, I think I'm gay. And she told her parents about it. And I believe they contacted mine. That's how they found out. 00:06:32 Speaker 2: Gwen doesn't remember much about the discussion she eventually had with her parents about her sexuality. But she does remember the aftermath. 00:06:41 Speaker 3: The philosophy or whatever means of it was just to pray it out of you, I guess. My uncle kept me after school for, I think, about three weeks. And we prayed on it, prayed about it, talked about it. And it just never went away. It just didn't happen like that for me. And that just made me feel like there was even more wrong with me because that didn't work. 00:07:04 Speaker 2: So Gwen kept to herself after that. 00:07:08 Speaker 3: There used to be these really, really tall trees across the street from us. And I used to crawl way into the top of these really tall trees and look over like the entire city. I just felt like I was on top of the world. That's where I would go sometimes. I always would go find some place to be alone. 00:07:28 Speaker 4: She was pretty much closed off. 00:07:31 Speaker 2: This is Gwen's sister, Karina, again. 00:07:33 Speaker 4: As far as being gay, that's not something that she and I really talked a whole lot about. I know that she had her struggles with it. 00:07:47 Speaker 3: I would decide I was just going to go ahead and pretend like I wasn't and just try to be what I was supposed to be, date guys, which that was like super rare. Most of the time, I just pretended like I didn't want to date. It didn't bother me. And I just ignored it. You know, I didn't discuss it. They didn't ask. 00:08:16 Speaker 2: When she was in the second grade, Gwen's family moved from California to Texas. She lived there until she was about 16. That's when her parents split up and she went back to California to live with her dad. In California, Gwen found herself becoming more accepting of her sexuality. 00:08:33 Speaker 3: I became acquainted with people that were comfortable with that lifestyle. They were out in the open about it and it made me comfortable to be out in the open about it and not be, you know, like ashamed, outwardly ashamed. publicly ashamed about what I was I accepted it that's who I am and if that makes me happy there's really nothing I can do about it I can choose to be miserable the rest of the rest of my life and live live for everybody else or just live for me and just be okay with it. 00:09:10 Speaker 4: When did you find out that Gwen was gay It was in my later teen years. I guess I was like maybe 15. She was 16. Then I found out. And I just, I didn't have a problem with it. It didn't change how I felt about her. I've always loved her just for who she is. 00:09:38 Speaker 2: Gwen moved back to Texas a few years later. She soon met a woman from Michigan, And the two started dating. They decided to move to Michigan together. But when Gwen got there, she realized the change was not what she anticipated. 00:09:52 Speaker 3: She had told me she had a really good job at either Ford, I think it was Ford, one of the car companies in terms of finance. she did not. When I got here, she was on public assistance and felt like the state owed her a living, and she just wasn't going to work anymore. So I walked into a really bad situation. 00:10:13 Speaker 2: Did you start working at the nursing home right away? 00:10:16 Speaker 3: Yes, I did. I took the first job. I hit the ground running. 00:10:21 Speaker 2: Gwen took a job at Alpine Manor Nursing Home in Walker, a suburb of Grand Rapids. Alpine Manor Nursing Home was a safe haven for its residents and its workers. Many people who identified as queer or LGBTQ worked there. It was a comfortable environment where they felt free to joke around with each other and pursue all kinds of relationships. 00:10:46 Speaker 3: I think it was mostly the women. There was a few men there. It was intimidating at first. I was just really shy. 00:10:53 Speaker 2: But soon, Gwen made friends and started socializing. A woman named Dawn became one of Gwen's first friends. Dawn's roommate also worked there at the nursing home. Her name was Kathy Wood. So she became a friend. What did you like about her? What was your friendship like? 00:11:10 Speaker 3: Well, Kathy was very intelligent. A lot of fun to be around. 00:11:18 Speaker 2: At the time, both Gwen and Kathy were getting fed up with their respective partners. 00:11:23 Speaker 3: Dawn had lost her job, and she was just sitting around the house doing nothing. My girlfriend didn't want to work. She didn't want to do anything. She didn't want to move forward in life. And I just felt like over time, her and I decided that, well, she didn't want to support Dawn anymore, and I didn't want to support the person I was with, so... I moved in with Kathy after she made Dawn leave. 00:11:48 Speaker 2: They started out as roommates. Gwen was seeing another woman who worked at the nursing home. And Kathy was married to her husband, Ken. But Kathy and Ken were going through a rocky time. 00:11:58 Speaker 3: She said that her husband was coming over that night to pick up some of his things. And I said, well, I'm going out on a date with a girl. So I went over to the girl's house. And I wasn't over there at the girl's house very long. And Kathy had called, and she was hysterical and saying that Ken was going to hurt her, and, well, please hurry back. And she was just really hysterical. I said, yeah, I'm coming. 00:12:22 Speaker 2: Gwen headed over, ready to go to battle for her friend. 00:12:27 Speaker 3: But she stops me at the door, and she said, everything's okay, everything's okay. So I walked in, and Ken was sitting there. He stood up, and he introduced himself. He was really polite, really well-spoken, and We sat down and had a friendly conversation the whole time. I'm thinking about the phone conversation and what happened and stuff. 00:12:50 Speaker 2: After Ken left, Gwen asked Kathy what that was all about. Kathy tried to explain, but things weren't adding up. 00:12:58 Speaker 3: It didn't take me too long to figure out that she had done that because she was, it was manipulative and she just didn't want me out with the girl. 00:13:07 Speaker 2: I want to ask you about that, like about Kathy being manipulative and a liar. Is this like one of the first times you started to realize that? 00:13:14 Speaker 3: Gwen really liked Kathy. But as time went on, she started noticing that Kathy was becoming increasingly jealous and manipulative. Over time, things got to be more vicious, more calculated, and not with good motives. Sometimes it took me a minute to sit down and think about the things that she did to figure out why she did them. 00:13:49 Speaker 2: Gwen remembers one day she was with her good friend Lisa outside of the nursing home, waiting for Kathy to get off work. When Kathy saw them together, she was suspicious and vindictive. 00:13:59 Speaker 3: She ended up calling Lisa's husband and telling him that Lisa had confided in her that the baby that they had together was not his, that she had had an affair on him. She just, really vicious stuff like that. It wasn't true, but this caused a conflict with him. And I do believe they ended up not together. Her and her husband ended up splitting up over it. 00:14:24 Speaker 4: If I was to pick a partner for Gwen, she would not be, absolutely not be one that I would choose for her. Some of the things that she done to Gwen, you just don't do to somebody that you say you care about and you love. 00:14:54 Speaker 2: Gwen dated Kathy for nine months before they split up. 00:14:58 Speaker 3: I just got tired of all the manipulating, the games. And I just couldn't do it anymore. I just wanted to be happy. I didn't want to be in this situation anymore. And I left her. 00:15:11 Speaker 2: Gwen and Kathy agreed to remain friends after the breakup. Gwen then left Alpine Manor for another job and started seriously dating another woman from the nursing home named Heather. The two decided to move out of Michigan, and out of respect for their friendship, Gwen told Kathy the news. 00:15:29 Speaker 3: And I thought that everything was okay. I told her I'm going to Texas, and I'm going with Heather. And she seemed to be okay with everything. 00:15:37 Speaker 2: So you thought everything was fine. So you and Heather go to Texas and then tell me what happens. 00:15:43 Speaker 3: One thing I know, the police are coming down to talk to me about her saying that I killed people at the nursing home or killed a person at the nursing home. That's how it started out. 00:15:56 Speaker 2: In August of 1987, around the same time that Gwen moved away with Heather, Kathy told her now ex-husband Ken a shocking tale. Between January and April that year, while Gwen and Kathy were still working at Alpine Manor, a number of the patients passed away. Among them were 60-year-old Marguerite Chambers, Mae Mason and Belle Burkhardt, who were both in their 70s, and Edith Cook and Myrtle Luce, who were in their 90s. Like most of the residents at the nursing home, these women were either elderly, ill, or both, and their causes of death were listed as natural, such as Alzheimer's and heart attack. But Kathy told her ex-husband these five women hadn't died of natural causes. She told him she and Gwen had plotted to murder the women as part of a lover's pact that would bind them together for life. Kathy painted Gwen as the mastermind of the crime. saying that she herself had acted as a lookout while Gwen killed the patients by smothering them. Over a year later, in October 1988, Ken went to authorities and told them what Kathy had said. His report launched an entirely new investigation into these women's deaths. Three of the bodies had been cremated, but the medical examiner, Dr. Stephen Cole, had the other two exhumed in order to re-examine them. Upon this second look, Dr. Cole determined that these two women had died from asphyxiation. He proceeded to change the manners of death on both their death certificates from natural causes to homicide. Quickly, the media started buzzing about the case in salacious detail. Newspapers seized on Gwen and Kathy's sexuality, depicting them as a pair of lesbian serial killers. 00:17:50 Speaker 3: And it was in the paper, and They were saying that people were killed at the nursing home. And I wasn't too worried about it. I never really thought it was going to go anywhere. So when they showed up at the door, when they came to talk to me, I thought it was kind of ridiculous. They told me, they said, your ex-girlfriend said that you killed somebody at the nursing home. And I laughed at them. I couldn't believe it. I said, I can't believe you came down here for that bullshit. 00:18:15 Speaker 2: But on December 4th, 1988, Gwen was arrested for murder. When she was arrested and brought back to Michigan, Gwen still thought things would be cleared up, that the police would realize Kathy was lying and that she would be released. But that didn't happen. The police and prosecutors then used Dr. Cole's conclusions to bolster the story that Kathy was telling, saying that the other three women also must have died by asphyxiation. 00:18:47 Speaker 3: When they charged me with four, I think four more, That's when I started losing it. I couldn't believe that it got as far as it did. 00:19:06 Speaker 2: We'll be right back after this break. Gwen's trial started in September of 1989. The state's case was presented by Assistant Kent County Prosecutor David Scheiber. He started by telling the jury about the alleged lovers pact that Kathy had described. 00:19:30 Speaker 5: This idea of the lovers pact, this lovers tryst, this homicidal lesbian duo was extremely shocking and salacious at the time. 00:19:44 Speaker 2: This is Elizabeth Cole, clinical fellow at the Michigan Innocence Clinic. 00:19:49 Speaker 5: It was no secret. at the time that Gwen was in a relationship with another woman, that she had dated other women in the past, and that she identified as gay. And that played a really large part of trial. It was sort of central to the prosecutor's themes. 00:20:09 Speaker 2: And that's how the prosecutor targeted his audience. 00:20:14 Speaker 5: I mean, Grand Rapids is beautiful, but it is not the most liberal of towns, especially not in the 80s. As Gwen has told me before, there's a church on every street corner. And we have seen in the transcripts this intense undertone of homophobia throughout. 00:20:34 Speaker 2: Scheiberg used that to his full advantage when questioning Gwen on the stand. 00:20:39 Speaker 5: The prosecutor asks her about her relationship with Kathy and whether or not that relationship was satisfying. And there was a lot of questions about whether or not Gwen had attempted to seduce other women and whether or not Gwen had been faithful to Kathy in this relationship. And I think that all of these little things really tried to show how the prosecution was trying to portray Gwen, which was this controlling, corruptive individual who has no sense of morals and who is a danger from every aspect. 00:21:19 Speaker 3: They spent more time just going over details of my sex life, saying it was kinky. And I was thinking if it was my person, my grandma that had been killed and they were talking about that, I would have been out in the courtroom and probably would have said, what the fuck does that got to do with anything? Can we get back to You know, my grandma. 00:21:43 Speaker 2: But the actual evidence against Gwen was thin. It was a story that started with Kathy. And before trial, when Gwen and Kathy were in holding cells next to each other, Gwen says she had a chance to ask Kathy about it. 00:21:55 Speaker 3: I said, why are you doing this? She said, because you hurt me, because you lied to me, because you cheated on me. I said, there is nothing I can do to change that. And she started crying and saying, but I loved you, and started banging her head on the wall in there. And so I was calling the guards and telling them she's over there hurting herself. 00:22:22 Speaker 2: After that, Gwen thought that Kathy would come clean on the stand. 00:22:26 Speaker 3: That's not what she did at all. I don't know what happened to her between that and getting on the stand, but all of a sudden she was totally composed and nailing me to the cross. 00:22:45 Speaker 2: Kathy testified as to what she told Ken and eventually told police, that she and Gwen plotted to kill the women in a lover's pact. The medical examiner, Dr. Cole, testified that the cause of death for the two women he reexamined was asphyxiation. And finally, witnesses from the nursing home said they had heard Gwen and Kathy making jokes about killing patients. So what did the defense do at trial? How did they try and refute this? 00:23:16 Speaker 5: So the defense really tried, I think, to poke holes in every space that they could. 00:23:23 Speaker 2: Gwen's defense attorney, James Piazza, started with Kathy. 00:23:27 Speaker 5: The defense really tried to show that this was nothing more than a story made up by Kathy. But he was limited in what he was able to do. He requested mental health records on Kathy to be able to discuss that with her. So the judge says, after reviewing the records himself, that he was denying the motion for her psychological records to be revealed. 00:23:57 Speaker 2: The judge determined that Kathy's mental health records would be irrelevant to the defense and could potentially even hurt their case. Despite this being an attorney's decision to make, the judge maintained that having these files available might actually help the prosecution's case because it would help argue that Kathy was susceptible to manipulation by Gwen. After an unsuccessful attempt at dismantling Kathy's credibility, Defense Attorney Piazza then pointed out the homophobia that was on display in the courtroom. 00:24:29 Speaker 5: Everyone's sex life is not important because we're talking about murders here. And so I think he tried to sort of minimize the idea that because everyone is gay or was in a relationship with one another, that that meant something in this case. 00:24:49 Speaker 2: Then Piazza focused on Dr. 00:24:51 Speaker 1: Cole. 00:24:52 Speaker 2: On cross-examination, Piazza questioned Cole about changing the manner of death for two of the women on their death certificates. Did he see any evidence in these two bodies that it was a homicide? 00:25:06 Speaker 5: Based upon his testimony at trial, the short answer is no. There were a number of other things that these women people could have passed away from. They were residing at a nursing home. Most of them had multiple maladies that could have been the reason they passed away. 00:25:23 Speaker 4: And Dr. 00:25:23 Speaker 5: Cole at trial testified that there really wasn't any typical signs of smothering, which was the allegations that each of these individuals had been smothered, such as burst capillaries, bruising on the face or in the mouth, things like that. He said there was no evidence of that, but based on what Kathy stated, he determined that it was a homicide each time. 00:25:51 Speaker 3: Dr. 00:25:51 Speaker 2: Cole admitted that if it wasn't for Kathy's confession, which he knew was the reason for the reexaminations, he would not have determined the cause of death to be asphyxiation. As for the other three women, because there had been no reexaminations, Piazza asked the judge to determine that there wasn't sufficient evidence for the jury to conclude that they were murdered. His request was denied. Finally, Gwen took the stand to defend herself, but it didn't go over as she hoped. 00:26:23 Speaker 5: I think she feels like she didn't get to explain her side of the story the way that she wanted to when she was testifying at trial. I think that she tried to explain a lot of the things that were presented, like the joke about killing people. 00:26:43 Speaker 2: Gwen admits that the atmosphere at the nursing home sometimes led to gallows humor. 00:26:47 Speaker 3: I mean, there were things that we did that were silly and just to get through. It's a real hard place to work where, you know, people pass away and people are sick in there. And you know that this is not a place that people are coming to get too much better. 00:27:06 Speaker 2: What she was talking about was something witnesses testified to hearing at the nursing home. Gwen says this joke started with a horror movie, Motel Hell, that a group of them had watched at a party. In the film, motel owners killed their guests and sold their bodies as meat to unknowing customers. 00:27:26 Speaker 3: And so I believe it was two of the boys at the party that started saying, well, the bodies at the nursing home, what about doing a chili cook-off? And that's just where it started. It went from there and every time that somebody would die, it was just a joke that we're going to have a chili cook-off. That's all it ever was. 00:27:44 Speaker 2: How do you feel about making those jokes now? 00:27:47 Speaker 4: I mean... Really awful. 00:27:49 Speaker 3: Really awful. 00:27:50 Speaker 1: Yeah. 00:27:51 Speaker 3: Really, really awful. Considering where it went, I can't even imagine that if it had been my grandma or my mother and I heard her stuff like that and people making jokes about it and. 00:28:08 Speaker 5: I think she tried to explain that, but after so many people had testified to it, it sort of fell flat. And I think that Gwen wasn't able really to talk about what it was that she wanted to talk about, which was her innocence. And so... Looking at Gwen's testimony, it seems like they tried to address all of the issues that had been presented at trial. They sort of went point by point and tried to address every conversation she had had with every witness. And I just think that the impact wasn't felt by the jury, that sincerity wasn't felt by the jury. 00:28:53 Speaker 2: Kathy took a plea deal of second-degree murder in exchange for her testimony against Gwen. She was sentenced to 20 to 40 years. On September 20th, 1989, Gwen was convicted of all counts and given six concurrent sentences of life without parole. Were you surprised when you found out she was convicted of this? 00:29:16 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, I cried. I still cry. And I really feel like she was railroaded. 00:29:26 Speaker 2: It was 15 years before Karina was able to visit Gwen in prison. At first, she didn't recognize her sister. 00:29:32 Speaker 4: I know she was like 25 or so when she went in. but her appearance had changed. Of course, mine had changed. So, I mean, I remember standing in the middle of the room, just looking around, just like calling her name. And then I looked at this lady. sitting in her chair. And she was just crying. And I knew it was her. And so they allowed us to hug. And we were like, it's really you. 00:30:15 Speaker 3: You're really here. 00:30:15 Speaker 4: And I'm like, yeah, I'm really here. I told her she was so beautiful. It was. 00:30:30 Speaker 4: It was really nice, really great. A moment I'll never forget. To be able to see her again. 00:30:44 Speaker 3: I had a really hard time coping with how did this happen. I was in shock for probably years. I was just like on autopilot. I went through the motions. There were times when I just couldn't do it anymore. I just felt like I just couldn't do it anymore. I tried to hang myself a couple of times and officers found me and cut me down. And I quit trying because I figured, well, if God's not going to let me kill myself, I must be here for something. So let's get to it. I figured out through therapy that for me, fixing other things, I spend a lot of time fixing other things and helping other people and fixing their things because I have an inability to fix my own. No matter what I tried, I can't seem to fix this, to make people see that. How am I ever going to make them see it? But I didn't do this. 00:31:52 Speaker 2: We'll be right back. Although Gwen didn't think she could fix her wrongful conviction, she still tried Gwen wrote letters to experts, attorneys, and innocence projects. In 2022, Elizabeth Cole was handed Gwen's case to review by the Michigan Innocence Clinic. 00:32:12 Speaker 5: When you read the story of the case, it doesn't seem fully plausible. It seems really fantastical, like it would make great TV. And usually that stands out to us. The other thing is, About this case in particular, and I think why we decided to investigate, is that this case is based around some very weak evidence. 00:32:37 Speaker 2: Currently, Elizabeth and the Michigan Innocence Clinic are looking at two specific angles that reinforce how Gwen's case was set up to fail. First, they're exploring how Dr. Cole was prejudiced by outside information given to him prior to the re-examination of the two bodies. 00:32:55 Speaker 5: Each of these women were determined to have been murdered by smothering. And Dr. Cole was very clear about the fact that that all came from his conversations with the police and from Kathy's statement, which he believed. I can't stress this enough. There is no medical basis for the homicide determination. and this was testified to at trial and then reconfirmed during a review by another medical examiner some years later, that there is no medical evidence to support a theory of smothering. 00:33:32 Speaker 2: Elizabeth says the bottom line is any theory of a case should not be shared with medical examiners or similar personnel until after they make unbiased judgments, because this information can and likely will affect their opinions. The second avenue that the clinic is focusing on is the rampant homophobia exhibited throughout the trial. 00:33:57 Speaker 5: This was an incredibly salacious trial. The testimony was especially salacious. And so there was sort of this connection for the prosecution between this lack of morality and Gwen's sexual preferences. This idea of homophobia that was played very heavily throughout trial really colors everything else. It colors her relationships with the people who testified. It colors who she is. It colors police opinion of her. It colors jurors opinion of her. It certainly colored the media's opinion of her. It colors every aspect of this case. And so that impacted Gwen and really prevented her from having a fair trial. 00:34:43 Speaker 2: The Michigan Innocence Clinic is currently writing a clemency petition on Gwen's behalf that will focus on these two issues, with the ultimate goal of getting Gwen out of prison. In 2020, Kathy was released on parole, but only after spending almost 30 years in prison based on a lie she told to put Gwen behind bars. To this day, Kathy has not admitted she lied. Why do you think she's stuck with this story for so long? Or forever? 00:35:17 Speaker 3: I thought long and hard about it when she said that we were killing all people in the nursing home. And for her to sit there and tell anybody in the world that it was a lie and everything, and then she would have to have that on her shoulders for the rest of her life. And I just don't think that she can live with it. I think that she was okay with the time that she did because I'm here for nothing. I think she was okay with it, like she was paying her own little price for what she did to me. And as long as she never says anything, she'll always be in control of my life. She'll always be in control. 00:36:02 Speaker 2: When you do get out, what do you hope to do with your future, with your life? 00:36:07 Speaker 3: I'm going to take my sister around the world. I wanted to take her around the world and travel because she works so hard. All she does is work, work, work. And I just want her to slow down and have fun. And I just want to spend time with her. The older I get, the more I realize that if I walk out of here, I'm not going to have a lot of time left. So my bucket list is getting shorter and shorter. I'm not a killer. I'm a good person. I care about people. Though I felt like the world that I cared so much about left me behind and forgot about me, I still care. 00:37:03 Speaker 2: If you want to help Gwen, you can contact Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer in support of Gwen and her clemency petition. You can also contact the Michigan Innocence Clinic to share your support for Gwen. These links will be in our bio. Thanks for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling. Please support your local innocence organizations and go to the links in our bio to see how you can help. I'd like to thank our executive producers, Jason Flom and Kevin Werdes, as well as our senior producer, Annie Chelsea, producer Lila Robinson, and story editor Sonia Paul. The show is edited and mixed by Annie Chelsea, with additional production by Jeff Clyburn and Connor Hall. The music in this production is by three-time Oscar-nominated composer J. 00:37:57 Speaker 1: Ralph. 00:37:58 Speaker 2: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at Wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good on all three platforms. You can also follow me on both Instagram and Twitter at Maggie Freeling. Wrongful Conviction with Maggie Freeling is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company No. 1.