Latest / Virtuous Leaders with Dr. Johann D'Souza / Ep.59 - Jamie Baxter Fires Up Faith, Exodus 90’s Bold Stand | Mens Formation | Catholic | Personal Freedom | Spiritual Discipline

Transcript

Ep.59 - Jamie Baxter Fires Up Faith, Exodus 90’s Bold Stand | Mens Formation | Catholic | Personal Freedom | Spiritual Discipline · Virtuous Leaders with Dr. Johann D'Souza

0:00
Jamie Baxter, you're the founder and CEO of Exodus 90.
0:03
Thanks for joining today. Johan, it's a delight.
0:05
Thanks for the invitation. Really humbled to receive it and
0:08
excited for our time together. So your your program, Exodus 90
0:12
for those who are familiar with it, well, why don't you just
0:15
describe it real quick before we get into your purpose for
0:18
founding it? Yeah, yeah.
0:20
So I guess I got to start mission, if that's OK.
0:25
So fundamentally, why we exist is to be uncommonly free.
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So everything that we do, all of our programming kind of revolves
0:36
around this theme of personal freedom as Catholics.
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So we're a Catholic apostolate for men.
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Freedom is very different from like the world's kind of ideas
0:48
about, you know, even even within an American context of
0:52
rights and responsibilities or certainly from, you know, kind
0:56
of license and doing what you would like, which is manifold,
1:02
you know, in today's kind of worldly thinking, we look at
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freedom as becoming who you were created to be.
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You know, God our Father has a design and intention for every
1:15
one of us uniquely. And freedom is ultimately, you
1:19
know, kind of the correspondence of yourself with your purpose
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and who you were, who, who, who he made you to be for our time
1:28
and he who, you know, which is different from anybody else.
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And so that's what freedom really is about is kind of
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creating the conditions for us to be able to more fully
1:38
surrender to God and by that to, to ultimately to become, you
1:46
know, fulfilled and, and, and really to fulfill your purpose.
1:48
So freedom is is the thrust we do.
1:52
You know, basically we have programs that run all year round
1:54
for a small groups of men. They typically have a prayerful
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ascetic or a kind of a discipline and a fraternal
2:03
element to them. So prayer, asceticism and
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fraternity are kind of the dimensions of the work.
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And really what we're about is trying to create a place of
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holistic formation for men, you know, an offer formation that
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touches minds, hearts, and the way that we live.
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Often times the faith and faith formation is reduced to ideas
2:30
and just kind of touching our minds, which is all important.
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I mean, every battle we face in the world is ultimately at the
2:37
level of ideas. So ideas are very powerful, but
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we look at our work as one of, of, of holistic formation, body,
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mind and soul. So when you come into Exodus 90
2:49
experiences, you know, you know, they, they, they definitely
2:53
touch and affect the way that you, you live and, and the
2:55
lifestyle you take up. So we are most known for a 90
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day program that leads up to Easter Sunday called Exodus 90.
3:04
And it's a journey through the book of Exodus and that small
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groups of men take together, they commit to a particularly
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challenging way of life and to a meeting together in in
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fraternity. Again, all of that is oriented
3:16
to growth and personal freedom. And I've been on it now for 10
3:19
years, which is kind of crazy to say, but it's been a wild ride.
3:23
It's been fun. And you free people by
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convincing them to deny themselves in all kinds of areas
3:29
for 90 days. It's it's very counter cultural.
3:33
Most people wouldn't consider themselves capable of doing it
3:35
but a lot of people do. So what what?
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What exactly are they sacrificing and or slash adding
3:41
to their life in those 90 days? Yeah, yeah, you're, you're,
3:45
you're right to say that you kind of you kind of sign up for
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for a bit of a challenge. I mean, I guess it's kind of not
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unlike going on an adventure. What's interesting about this
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adventure is it happens in your real life right in front of you.
3:57
And I think part of the, you know, there, there's a couple of
4:01
ideas buried within that, but it's I have this, so I'm really
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big into the the desert Fathers and we're doing a series right
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now on the desert Fathers. It's called Desert Fathers in a
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year. And this was like early
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Christians. We're talking like 2-3 hundred
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years after Christ, OK, So really close to his presence
4:20
among us when God became a man. And what's so interesting is
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this wisdom that's emerged in this what's called the sayings
4:30
of the desert fathers. And you read this stuff and it's
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like so practical. And these like these, these,
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these men and women became masters of the human condition.
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And one of the thrusts of the desert was this idea that, you
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know, go to your cell and your cell will teach you everything.
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Like sit there and you will find everything that you need.
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And, and so the point of our stuff is like, hey, you don't
4:57
need to go anywhere to find opportunities for sacrifice.
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They're right in front of you. And we ultimately live in a
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cultural context where every corporation in the country is
5:07
incentivized greatly to make our lives easier, cheaper, faster,
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more enjoyable, more distracting.
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And we kind of take a different approach.
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We just kind of want to offer a way out, an exodus from, you
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know, that that environment that has does not lead to much
5:25
wholeness or flourishing, you know, if we're honest with
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ourselves. And so, yeah, during Exodus 90,
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guys take up, you know, they commit to an hour of daily
5:33
prayer. You, you know, you journey
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through the book of Exodus with us.
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You take up a kind of an ascetic way of life, a challenging way
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of life. You know, cold showers is part
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of it. You know, fasting on Wednesdays
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and Fridays, not eating between meals, you kind of re re you
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really reconsider how you use technology and really try to
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return it to the domain of a tool and not as a place of
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leisure. So you limit basically any
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unessential technology use. And I'm sure there's other, you
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know, exercise as an element of it too.
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So kind of these things that kind of touch the way that you
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live. But what well, you know, what
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makes it special as you're part of a tribe.
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I mean, you know, we got exit disguise now all over the world,
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huge United States by God's grace, which is really cool.
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And so, you know, you join a brotherhood man of other guys
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who are living a similar way of life.
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And you know, I wish I could tell you like Exodus stuff is
6:27
for this kind of guy, but we see so many different things and
6:32
Exodus 90 is so misunderstood when it's kind of talked about
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us this thing for the elite or for like these like really holy
6:38
Catholic men. That's just not that the lived
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experience of this on the ground at all.
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You know, we have a lot of guys who aren't Catholic, a lot of
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guys who have not had a serious spiritual experience honestly
6:49
before this. And somehow, you know, men find
6:55
fruit. And I think this is actually
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kind of goes back to the fundamental mission.
6:58
It's like when you grow in freedom, you grow in uniqueness
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and you overcome the conformity of sin in the world.
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And that's what I love about the work is you talk to any guy,
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he'll say something so different.
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And that's what keeps me interested.
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It's just these testimonies from guys having these experiences
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and, you know, you know, taking away very different things from
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one another really excites me. You're a great CEO.
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You're, you're really good at highlighting the mission and the
7:24
purpose and saying it in an inspiring and articulate way
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where I, you know, I'm just trying to get to the meat and
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potatoes and you're, you're, you're explaining the
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background, which is a lot more inspiring.
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Oh, well, no, I appreciate that. I mean, for me, I look at the
7:38
work as apostolate. So, you know, I don't really
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just look at it as a job or, you know, a company.
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And what is apostolate in a Catholic understanding
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apostolate. It's it's to to engage in
7:51
Apostolic work, you know, and I look at the whole thing as a
7:54
part of Jesus mission to save the world.
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And so for me and for our team, our first charism that really
8:01
animates all of our work is the contemplative life and being a
8:05
contemplative first. So everything has its origin in
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our, you know, silent prayer, you know, that's starts with me
8:12
as a, as a, as an example, but all the way down to our newest
8:16
employee, you know, learning to really pray seriously and to
8:20
receive from God the inspiration for your work so that we can, we
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can accomplish what, what, what God has created us to, to be and
8:28
to do today. So I appreciate that.
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I think the reason why I always go back to mission is for me,
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you know, it's not just like ideas I've had and you know, I'm
8:38
not just like doing stuff, you know, to do it.
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It's, I feel like deeply called to do this and grateful to be a
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part of it and however long it goes.
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So I'm here for it. And, you know, my goal is just
8:50
to, to kind of stay out of the way and, and, and let the Lord
8:53
work through through us as reservoirs of his love.
8:57
Well it's a much more profound reason for doing it than
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thinking. How am I even get these lazy
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slobs to practice self-discipline so I can
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congratulate you on that. Yeah, yeah, you know, and me,
9:09
you know, for me too, it's like I'm, I'm a pretty, I don't know,
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I like to think I'm realistic. But, you know, maybe, maybe I
9:15
could be bent towards optimism, I guess.
9:17
I know there's some positive positives and negatives to that,
9:22
you know, but but you know, really, I look at the whole
9:24
thing as an invitation. It's like, hey, you know, if
9:27
you're a man looking to grow in freedom, we're here for you.
9:29
We'd love to have you, you know, if we can support your journey.
9:33
If not, no problem. I mean, the the church is a
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treasure full of so many wonderful ministries,
9:39
apostolates, companies doing great things.
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And you know, we just try to stay focused on what we feel
9:45
called to do. And if it resonates with you,
9:47
awesome, and if not, no problem. Dude, I just want to buy
9:51
something from you right now. You're just you're, you're great
9:54
at pitching. So I was talking to a spiritual
9:59
director and he said that excess 90 is the best way that he's
10:03
seen for people to practice self sacrifice and to break habits
10:07
like pornography addiction because they're taking that the
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fasting from the screens and that sort of thing.
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So I'm curious is that is that part of the intention?
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Why is it 90 days? That's pretty long three months.
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Does that have anything to do with like breaking addictions?
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If if anything, like my one critique would be it's man, it
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just, it just crushes me when I see people in the Christmas
10:32
season starting Exodus 90. But but maybe you do that
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intentionally because they need the 90 days to break out of bad
10:40
habits. Yeah, those are all really good
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questions and A and A and a thoughtful observation too on
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Christmas season, which I'll get into at the end.
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But yeah. So, you know, men come to Exodus
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for all kinds of different reasons.
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And there are patterns that we observe and we call them, you
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know, we all have our idols, We all have our Pharaohs.
10:59
And I don't stand here and say like, oh, I'm the perfectly free
11:02
man. It's like, no, it's like I I
11:04
absolutely have places in my heart that, you know, more
11:09
growth and more freedom as, you know, as possible for, you know,
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I believe that. But but, you know, every one of
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us has, you know, our own things, you know, but there are
11:18
patterns. And so pornography is one of
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those those patterns. But you know, but there are,
11:24
there are many others as well. And so I've really tried to, you
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know, in the Catholic life, you know, when you start talking
11:30
about freedom, everyone goes towards chastity.
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I don't really like that. I don't think that's right.
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Dude, I don't. I don't like chastity either.
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Oh no. Just.
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Talk about something that was a joke.
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Actually one of my values, one of my values of my private
11:46
practice is the beauty of chase love.
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So I just I just want to clarify to everyone that that.
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Was just a joke. Yeah, no.
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And it's no jab on on chastity itself.
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It's more just, you know, freedom is bigger than the
12:00
sexual domain of life, right. So I don't know, I think
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sometimes in an American context, we get so fixated on
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that to the detriment actually of overcoming the actual
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struggles. So the other thing I would just
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say is that, you know, I'm really big, we were talking
12:14
about this earlier, Johan, but I'm really big on the
12:17
integration of our humanity with our spirituality.
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And, you know, grace builds on nature.
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So I don't look at Exodus 90s stuff as magic bullets for
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addictions at all. You know, some people in the
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throes of habitual, you know, struggle for decades are going
12:35
to need a lot more support than we can offer them.
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Obviously clinical help, other support groups locally, you
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know, all of those things in the coming year, we're going to be
12:47
really focused on playing our part to to better support that,
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you know, men in the, you know, the struggle of pornography and
12:54
a couple of other struggles that you know, are, are key themes to
12:58
help them kind of in their own kind of, you know, formation
13:01
around those topics and how to understand them.
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Mostly just to stay encouraged so that they don't give up at,
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you know, as you know, as they struggle through, you know, the
13:10
journey to overcome sin by the power of God's grace.
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And so I would just say again, I, I don't look at, at the work,
13:18
as, you know, magic bullets overcome addiction.
13:20
A lot of the time addiction needs a lot closer, more
13:23
intentional support, you know, and, and that's just based on
13:27
cutting edge science, you know, and, and So what we'll do what
13:31
we can to support that journey, but we don't pretend to be the
13:35
full destination there. So there's, there's that
13:39
element. At the same time, it is long. 90
13:41
days is a long time part of that's borrowed just from, you
13:44
know, kind of fundamental elements around a A and, and,
13:48
and, and the successes there. And again, I, I don't look at it
13:53
as a, as a magic bullet, like don't do these things for 90
13:55
days and you'll be better. Like maybe, you know, like, you
13:58
know, you, you, you, you'll, you'll certainly start to
14:00
rewire, you know, neural networks in, in the brain.
14:03
But, but it's ultimately daily decisions that build up over
14:07
time, you know, that create these patterns of, of, of, of
14:10
greater freedom. So I like 90 days because it's
14:13
like long enough to, you know, have successes, have failures,
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keep going, hopefully make progress.
14:20
It's attainable. It's like, OK, it's 1/4 of the
14:22
year, but it's not forever. And at the same time, the thing
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I would also say is we offer daily formation for men grafted
14:32
onto the surgical calendar. So what you may not know is even
14:35
in the, you know, the Christmas season, we actually all, all of
14:39
our formation revolves around entering into the joy and
14:42
festivity of those, those sacred days.
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And we, we absolutely do modify disciplines around the
14:51
celebration of holy days. So, you know, I would say say
14:54
that the other thing element I would add is, you know, we're
14:56
about to, you know, as we wrap up Lent and transition to
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Easter, we have a whole 50 day Easter celebration experience
15:03
called Easter 50. And the reason for this is no
15:08
one knows. I mean, so the the Easter season
15:10
is longer than length. Yeah, OK.
15:13
And no one knows. And and I've been at this now
15:16
intentionally for decades. How do you live the Easter
15:20
season in a meaningfully sustained way?
15:23
So our team has been obsessed with this problem and really
15:27
trying to offer formation around how to continue to make the, you
15:31
know, build on the progress that many people find and Lent, but
15:34
not overcoming to kind of like the Easter Blues of like going
15:37
back to the sins that weren't good for us anyway.
15:41
So that we can actually live in the joy and light of the
15:44
resurrection and ultimately receive the Holy Spirit at
15:47
Pentecost. You know, for the personal
15:50
missions we all have. Great, so it is.
15:54
I have a feeling it's not just like stuffing your face with
15:56
chocolate. Yeah, no, yeah.
15:59
I mean, you know, there's nothing wrong with that a little
16:00
bit, but no, it's not, not just that.
16:04
And so you're having an initiative to help people with
16:07
pornography. Any preview of that?
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What where, what resources you're going to use for that, or
16:11
who you're going to collaborate with?
16:13
Thank you. I'm in the earliest days,
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honestly, on that initiative. I'm also kind of thinking about
16:19
struggles that men often come to us with, with work, finding
16:23
purpose and meaning in work, but also just struggling with
16:26
overworking, you know, to kind of escape life.
16:29
You know, in some sense I'm, I'm focused on that alcohol, you
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know, obviously some men are in addictions.
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It's not so much the addictions element of alcohol that I'm
16:39
interested in. It's more just the numbing
16:40
effect that alcohol can casually be culturally and not.
16:45
Again, this is not a I'm in no way saying on alcohol like if
16:49
you I'm not a teetotaler. To be.
16:51
Fully transparent. It's just how do we, how do we,
16:54
how do we drink? Well, you know, and then when
16:56
I'm not and I know that I'm not, why, you know, and you know,
17:00
trying to offer help there. So I'll just say that, you know,
17:04
we will be working with subject matter experts who are the best,
17:07
you know, at these things and then pairing them with our, you
17:12
know, the the the priests and monastics that work with us to
17:16
kind of pair the best of human and spiritual formation, you
17:19
know, for men today. And my goal on all of it is for
17:22
it to date as fast as possible. I just, I want to stay on the
17:25
cutting edge as possible on research.
17:29
And as we learn more, just continue to update to and, you
17:33
know, to provide to more perfectly accomplish our
17:35
mission, you know, of helping our men to grow an uncommon
17:39
freedom. So that's the goal.
17:42
That's what we're after. And I cannot wait, you know, to
17:47
get after that and offer that kind of support.
17:50
You know, the other. There's two other aspects,
17:52
though of that work, though. First is just encouragement.
17:56
I'm big on like, hey, life's tough.
17:59
The fall is challenging. Our sins make it even more
18:02
complicated. We've all endured traumas, you
18:04
know, in our earliest years and even through life.
18:08
Life is hard. You know, it is really hard.
18:11
But in a Catholic vision, those who are baptized, you know, we,
18:16
we are sons and daughters of a loving father.
18:18
And he has allowed even very painful things to happen to us
18:23
if we can persevere in his love. They've been happening to us,
18:26
you know, to accomplish something truly beautiful that
18:28
otherwise would not have otherwise been possible.
18:32
And it's just my fundamental belief that reality, even when
18:34
it's hard, will never betray us because God has become a man and
18:40
redeemed us and everything that happens to us.
18:44
And we're all children, you know, in our Father's hands.
18:46
And so I just like to try to stay really encouraging even
18:50
when we. Suffer.
18:51
And even when we struggle, it's, it's, it's part of life that's
18:55
really challenging. And we won't fully know why, you
19:00
know, until the end. But we just want to offer daily
19:02
encouragement for those suffering in those kind of
19:05
struggles, in those idols, those Pharaohs, to encourage them on
19:10
their way. And the last element is I'm big
19:12
on real life stuff. OK, so we we build a software
19:17
product, but our fraternities are real by fraternities.
19:20
When you think, when our regular guy thinks of Exodus, he doesn't
19:23
think like, wow, that's a great app.
19:25
He thinks of his local friends. And when you come to the app, we
19:30
can help you find local friends, you know, that are willing to
19:34
take these these kind of challenges.
19:37
And this is just our incarnational worldview, you
19:40
know, as Catholics. So my, I would just say that I'm
19:47
big on reality. And so when, as we go into this
19:49
human formation work, I also want to encourage, you know, our
19:54
guys like, hey, if this struggle is just more than we can really
19:57
do for you, or you can manage yourself even in your local
20:00
fraternity context, which is there as a place of
20:03
encouragement and mercy and accountability, all those
20:07
things, then hey, you can, you're going to need to get
20:09
help. And we'll, we'll do our best to
20:12
do kind of the quality assurance work too.
20:14
Help, you know, send our men to the real life resources that
20:17
they need. And you know, obviously there's
20:19
a lot of stigmas around all these things, especially for
20:22
men, and there's no need for that.
20:26
And we can overcome that and we're going to.
20:29
Who would you say the subject matter expert for pornography
20:32
treatment? You know, I, I don't want to be,
20:36
I don't there. There's a lot of of folks that I
20:39
look up to kind of in that space.
20:41
And so I just say I'm kind of waiting to see what's possible
20:45
for them and doable for them from a, from a, from a
20:47
standpoint before I kind of make these promises.
20:50
But there's, there's another number of, you know, of
20:52
wonderful, you know, men and women who've accomplished a lot
20:56
that I would love to be able to, to partner with, but we don't to
20:59
be, to be transparent and honest, because you asked this
21:01
so directly, I don't know, I don't actually have our partners
21:04
lined up yet. I just have my wish list.
21:07
Yeah. I just be curious to hear a
21:09
little bit more of your role as CEO in the business side of
21:12
things like how what's the reach of Exodus 90 if you're, if
21:16
you're willing to share, like how profitable is it, if at all
21:20
or if not, like how do you fund it?
21:22
And then what like what is your day-to-day as ACEO look like?
21:25
What is your how big is your team?
21:26
That sort of thing. Yeah.
21:29
So we've been on an interesting journey and it's not been a
21:32
linear 1. So I've been at this now for 10
21:35
years. Originally it was a nonprofit.
21:39
Starting nonprofits from scratch in the faith space is really
21:42
hard. It's, it's hard to win the trust
21:45
of donors and it's easy when you have your institution built and
21:49
your endowment, you know, etcetera.
21:51
It's really hard when you're starting from zero.
21:54
And so I just struggled to raise the money that I needed for the
21:56
work that I wanted to do. And so I built a product in
21:59
2018. So we went to the mobile app
22:01
space before it was cool. I mean, we were so early to it
22:05
that I was like, you know, maybe apps will be over in five years
22:07
and we'll move on to the next thing.
22:10
And you know, we just got fortunate.
22:13
You know, we caught a kind of a trend there.
22:16
I wish I could say it was super strategic on our part, but it
22:19
really wasn't. It was just listening to our men
22:22
and their encouragement to us. So in the earliest days, like
22:25
we're just selling books and e-books and e-mail drips and
22:28
shirts and sending boxes and stuff.
22:30
But we went mobile in 2018. That transformed us when COVID
22:33
happened, we were uniquely positioned to serve the church
22:36
in a time of real crisis. So we did great, you know, in
22:40
those years and we've continued to kind of grow since then.
22:43
So from a, we were eventually though, we, we, we went private.
22:49
So nuances to that. It's not of it, it does happen.
22:53
It's not super common. Most of the time when nonprofits
22:57
fold up, it's because, you know, it's not work or, you know, it's
23:00
over. Ours was, you know, we, we, you
23:04
know, that things were going well, but we couldn't find the,
23:07
the money, the real money we needed.
23:09
And so I asked the guy for a donation.
23:11
He's a wonderful man and just threw his own Family Foundation.
23:16
They're like, hey, you know, they give away a ton of money
23:19
philanthropically, but they're like, you know, I'm listening to
23:22
you talk. You just sound a lot more like a
23:24
startup founder then like a bleeding heart missionary guy.
23:28
But I'm kind of both. And so, you know, he's like,
23:30
hey, why, why don't we figure out how to make the transition?
23:33
And basically through his generosity, he made that happen.
23:36
It opened up funding for us, which is great.
23:39
And so, yeah, I have one value aligned investor who thinks very
23:41
long term, is really passionate about our work.
23:46
And I'm so grateful, you know, that God brought us together in
23:48
his plan and that's just allowed us to, you know, improve the
23:52
quality of our team, the kind of, you know, people we can hire
23:56
now. And that's ultimately been to
23:58
the blessing of the men that we serve.
24:00
I mean, our work has transformed over the last three years
24:04
because of it. In terms of reach, you know,
24:07
what we say publicly is, you know, we've had over 250,000
24:12
Exodus men. That's a little bit, a little
24:14
bit. Dude, that's awesome.
24:16
Yeah, yeah. Thank you.
24:18
Yeah. So really grateful for that.
24:20
You know, we're reaching men all over the world by God's grace,
24:23
which is, you know, really humbling and, you know, but, but
24:27
to be honest with you, it's, it's all, you know, Exodus 90
24:30
girls by referral and word of mouth.
24:34
You know, we've tried all the paid marketing stuff and it just
24:38
hasn't really worked out. It's been like super
24:40
distracting. And I hate that work anyway.
24:42
And so, you know, we've really, you know, kind of kind of torn
24:46
down the kind of the things that startups do.
24:50
And instead we, we, we, we call it integrity as leverage.
24:53
So we, we just speak from the heart about what we're
24:56
passionate about and just invite men to join us if they want to
25:00
and if it's for them. And so what's so cool is like,
25:02
that's how Exodus really has grown up to this point.
25:05
It's, it's, it's men finding out about it and inviting men of
25:08
their local community to join them.
25:11
And our encouragement to our guys is never to invite, you
25:14
know, who they perceive to be the perfect Catholic or
25:16
Christian man. It's, it's, they should invite
25:18
them in that God places on their hearts and just see what
25:21
happens, you know, through the experience.
25:22
So, you know, that's how it started.
25:25
And I'd say got a little bit distracted trying to do the
25:28
things that you're supposed to do at our stage of growth and
25:31
all this stuff. And I was in the last year, I
25:33
found a lot of courage to just say, you know what, screw it.
25:36
Like we're doing this our way and makes it a little less
25:39
predictable, but it allows us to be, you know, I think just a lot
25:46
higher, higher quality, honestly, all around.
25:50
So in terms of how I spend my time, so I'm, we have a small
25:54
team, we only have 8 full time staff members.
25:55
We could definitely have more than that.
25:57
But in the faith space, you know, most jobs are really, you
26:03
know, people are under compensated, you know, and they,
26:05
they, it's I, I look at that and I admire people's willingness to
26:10
commit and to make sacrifices for their employers.
26:14
In the first three years of Exodus, I poured everything I
26:17
had into it and I saw nothing in return.
26:19
But when it started to work, I knew that I was not going to ask
26:23
anyone else to do that. And So what I have tried to do
26:28
is stay committed to hiring very slowly.
26:32
And I've made some mistakes over this overtime.
26:33
I don't act like I've had this all figured out.
26:35
I've gotten here through a lot of failures, but or mistakes
26:40
that I learned from. So maybe it's not a failure, but
26:42
just just just mistakes on that. But but ultimately where I am
26:45
now is, you know, we got a couple 8-8 guys, they got great
26:48
jobs. They're really competitive jobs.
26:51
You know, I'm competing not against the faith space, but to
26:54
market And so and even better in some cases.
26:58
And I'm really proud of that because that's so rare in the
27:01
church. And I think that'll that, that
27:04
also kind of creates the conditions for people to be
27:07
fully focused on their on their work because they're not needing
27:10
to pile up side gigs to, to make ends meet.
27:14
Their spouse doesn't have to work if they don't want to work,
27:17
which is something I'm also passionate about.
27:19
And a lot of time, you know, faith-based families, they don't
27:22
necessarily want that equation, but they have to, you know, to,
27:25
to make everything work in our inflationary times.
27:29
And I'm trying to in my little sliver of the universe, you
27:36
know, create a different, a different path.
27:39
So there's that in terms of how I spend my day, you know, at
27:42
this point, I got great people here.
27:44
I was used to do everything. Obviously, every startup founder
27:47
is, is it is that way. But you, you hire, you know, the
27:50
best people you can, you know, in their domains of specialty.
27:53
And so I'm so grateful to get to work with the guys that I do.
27:57
I look at all of them. I mean, most of them have been
27:59
CE OS other places or founders. And if they haven't been,
28:02
they're capable of being that. And the reason I do that is
28:06
because you know, they're effectively one man departments
28:10
and so they've got a ton of leadership experience and it
28:12
keeps our communications super simple and I trust them.
28:17
You know, I step in when I need to to apply my founder kind of
28:21
pressure and urgency and all that stuff, which, you know, it
28:25
is the founder's job to inject risk, which is impossible, you
28:29
know, for an employee to fully be able to do.
28:33
And it's not their fault. It's just founders inject risk.
28:36
And so I tried to do that as I need to, but the vast majority
28:39
of the time, you know, I'm just taking kind of their
28:42
recommendations and we're going forward that way.
28:45
In terms of our workflow, we work in six week cycles.
28:47
We stole this from the base camp guys, Jason Frieden, David
28:51
Heinemeyer Hansen, who I look up to a lot and respect.
28:57
I probably have different first principles and values than they
28:59
do, but there's a lot on the work life stuff that they've
29:01
really figured out well. And so every six weeks we we
29:05
commit to our workflows. You know, we don't do hyper long
29:07
term planning. We do short term planning.
29:11
Six weeks is nice because it's like, you know, close enough
29:14
that you feel it from day one. And it's also not far enough
29:19
where, you know, you don't have to get started today, you know,
29:22
when a cycle starts. So we run on cycles, which is to
29:26
say, you know, because of that, we get a lot done around here.
29:29
And what we're able to do with eight people with leadership
29:31
experience, a lot of maturity, you know, with, with high trust
29:37
and with that kind of accountability, we get a lot
29:40
done. I'm really proud of them in
29:43
terms of my own life. You know, I, I look at the work
29:46
as a postulate, like I said earlier.
29:48
And so, you know, my mornings, I, I don't do well.
29:52
We avoid meetings at all costs. We.
29:55
Limit as much as. We can less is always more.
29:59
So when we have to have a meeting, we're trying to have as
30:01
few people there as possible. So you know, the team knows like
30:06
hey, a meeting of three is a red flag, meeting of 2 is better.
30:10
No meetings is the best. So, you know, we're able to do
30:14
that because of the high trust environment that we built up.
30:19
And that just creates a lot of space to actually doing the work
30:22
that makes the difference and blesses the men that that we
30:25
serve. And so, you know, for that
30:28
reason, applied to my own life as as the CEO, I don't take any
30:32
meetings in the morning at all. I pray for a lot of the time.
30:37
I read, I write, I think, I go on walks, I have a morning
30:43
prayer routine that's essential to me.
30:45
And so because if for me, if I'm not praying, this whole thing's
30:49
in vain and won't be fruitful. So everything for me starts
30:52
there. That's the foundation.
30:54
And then I kind of take that kind of deep work time,
30:57
borrowing that from Cal Newport is a guy I love.
31:00
And then the afternoon is for shallow work.
31:02
So meetings, e-mail base camp, that's our internal
31:06
communication tool as that we use as a team, which I can't
31:09
highly recommend enough. It's the best by far.
31:13
It's better than all of the tools out there.
31:16
Take that superlative. But we run our company on
31:19
Basecamp. I love it and proud customer
31:22
have been for a long time. And so it's awesome.
31:25
It's great and I try to wrap up the day in a timely fashion.
31:30
You know, the other thing I'll just say is listen, time will
31:34
fit the amount of our work will fit the amount of time you let
31:37
it. So you have to scope it and for
31:41
us in men's formation work, if me and my team are not really
31:46
great husbands and fathers and we claim to help men become who
31:50
they were created to be, the vast majority of guys are
31:52
husbands and fathers. The whole thing is hypocritical
31:55
and a contradiction. So I try to get off work early.
32:00
I don't work at nights, I don't work on the weekends.
32:04
Things do get left undone because of that.
32:06
But at the end of the day, the legacy I'm going to leave is in
32:10
the minds and hearts of my children and in my wife.
32:13
And I know that. And I'm not at all confused
32:16
about that as it relates to some of the, you know, some of the
32:20
true successes that we have had on the work side.
32:23
It's all great. I'm grateful for it.
32:24
I'm grateful to get to do this still.
32:27
But the impact that I make is when my son and my daughter, my
32:31
sons and my daughter reflexively just think of me in the air as
32:36
they're going about their day. They're like, he loves me, you
32:40
know, that's what in that, that's what I want them to, to
32:42
feel. That's the dent I want to make,
32:45
you know, in the universe. And so because of that, though,
32:47
I'm really passionate about what we do at work.
32:49
But if it becomes a, a contradiction or becomes
32:52
hypocritical, the whole thing is in vain and from a spiritual
32:56
perspective will not be fruitful.
32:58
It won't be fruitful, you know, into eternity, which is all that
33:01
matters to me. Your team sounds amazing that I
33:05
would love to work with a team like that.
33:07
How old are you man? I am.
33:10
I'm getting old. I'm 34.
33:11
Oh. Man, so I I started working.
33:14
On this at 24. How'd you How'd you learn how to
33:18
be a founder? Yeah, it's a good question.
33:22
I mean, you start by doing right, especially from a, from a
33:26
founding standpoint. I, you know, listen, like all
33:30
where I am today is not where I was in year 1 and wasn't where I
33:33
was in Year 5. And you make a lot of mistakes
33:37
along the way. And I think the, the best
33:40
founders that I have learned from are those that are really
33:47
humble and they know how fragile their thing is.
33:50
And my thing is fragile. And I make a lot of mistakes.
33:54
And I just do my best when I make a mistake to learn from it.
33:58
And, and, and with God's help and grace and my team, you know,
34:02
move forward in grace. So there's, there's, there's
34:06
kind of the humility element there.
34:09
And obviously humility is not something that you ever have.
34:12
You know, you're always growing in it.
34:14
You know, I mean, our lives are full of opportunities to, to be
34:18
grounded and, you know, the, the, the, the, the, the
34:21
fleetingness of our lives. And so there's that.
34:27
I think the other thing is I have relearned, you know, in the
34:31
earliest days you are taking risks, but they're not that big
34:36
because there's nothing to lose and there's nothing for me to
34:40
lose in the earliest days. But over time, as as you start
34:44
to experience success, it gets harder because success is hard,
34:49
you know, and growth is hard. And I think one of the many
34:55
mistakes that I've made over the years, it's, it's trying to
34:57
clone the success of other people and especially other
35:04
founders, right? So I think my greatest
35:07
encouragement to founders is be open to learning from everyone
35:12
you meet, you know, be they respectable or the homeless
35:18
person on the street. Be open to everybody.
35:21
Everyone is a human being made in God's image and likeness.
35:24
We're all aliens here on a journey to our homeland.
35:29
Learn from everybody. But as it relates to your thing
35:32
and your company, at least for me, Speaking of this in a
35:35
religious context, you, you, you, you receive it.
35:40
And then you've got to go on your gut.
35:42
And as soon as you start cloning other people and doing the
35:44
things that worked for them, basically you're just trying to
35:49
ask them to read you their lottery ticket number, stealing
35:52
a quote from Naval. And that's just, that's
35:54
unhelpful. And so in the last couple of
35:57
years, I'd say the last two, I've gotten a lot more in touch
36:01
with my gut and I do a lot more things that don't make a lot of
36:06
sense, but work for us, you know, So, and that's my
36:11
encouragement to all founders whenever you know people, cuz
36:13
people do, you know, humbly ask for advice and stuff.
36:16
And my, my, the first thing I say is like, Hey, I'll, I'll be
36:19
happy to give you my judgement on the situation you're
36:21
describing to me, but I am not you and I'm not called to do
36:24
what you're asked to do. Discount what I'm saying to
36:28
absolute 0 and go, you know, take it, but then go on your
36:32
gut, you know, you've got you've got to do that.
36:34
So as it relates to how I've learned to be a founder, it's
36:36
like you learn everyday. You make a lot of mistakes and
36:39
those mistakes are blessings if you learn from them.
36:41
And I wouldn't even of the things that I would quote do
36:44
over, I wouldn't even do them over because I learned from
36:46
them, you know, and I'm just grateful to, to, to still be at
36:51
it. And, you know, we'll see what
36:53
the future holds and how long it how long it endures.
36:58
Incredible man. I wish you lived in Houston
37:00
dude. I would take you out for beer,
37:01
lunch, whatever. You look like a whiskey guy.
37:04
Oh yeah, I, you know, I, I don't drink a ton anymore, to be
37:09
honest with you. It's just like, I'm a, I'm a
37:10
sleep guy. So I'm like the opposite of the
37:14
founders that don't sleep. I like have to sleep 8 or 9
37:17
hours. Now I have young kids, so, you
37:19
know, obviously that doesn't always happen.
37:23
But yeah, but like, man, when I drink too much or even drink a
37:27
little bit, just message with my sleep quality and then I'm just
37:30
so awful the next day. And anyway, so I, I don't drink
37:35
a ton anymore, but when I do, I, yeah, I really love Balvini
37:42
Scotch. I I got into that when I turned
37:44
21. I still like it a lot.
37:47
So recommendation there. Yeah, I I'm actually similar
37:51
when it comes to alcohol. In fact, I recently basically
37:54
stopped, really. But yeah, yeah, just mainly for
37:58
just health reasons and, yeah, just mental acuity, that sort of
38:03
thing. You know, I tell my friends that
38:05
I always liked the idea of drinking more than the actual
38:08
drinking, so I'm. The same way man yeah.
38:10
And I have a lot of friends too that have kind of landed there.
38:13
So I love non alcoholic beers. I I like it kind of get gets
38:18
what you know, I kind of get the carbonation and you know, you
38:22
know, the taste that I need, but without any of the effects.
38:25
So anyway, that's worked for me. Dude, I'm I'm addicted to club
38:30
soda, like Tobo, Chico, that sort of thing.
38:32
Yeah, dude, my brother Doyle, who I work with, he's my my best
38:36
friend. He's my right hand guy.
38:39
Without him, none of this would ever happened.
38:42
And he, he should get more of the credit than he does because
38:45
he's essential to, to our success here.
38:48
But he's a big Topo Chico guy and club, yeah, club soda guy.
38:52
And he, he, he actually quit drinking, you know, four years
38:56
ago or so now. And that's incredible too,
38:59
'cause I, I, I am like, naturally moderate and he is
39:02
not, he's very, you know, you know, can struggle with
39:05
intemperance. And he's just done this
39:06
beautiful job of accepting that and moving forward in a way
39:10
that's just really worked for him.
39:11
And I'm really proud of him. Yeah, Yeah, man.
39:15
Well, hey, thanks. Thanks, Jamie.
39:17
I did you. You have an incredible story I
39:20
can tell you. You're going to go places, man.
39:21
I mean, you already have, but you're going to help a lot of
39:23
people. And if I ever start a board,
39:26
you're the first person I'm going to ask.
39:28
Oh man, yeah. Well, so here's my thing on
39:30
boards. Do you want to know?
39:32
Do you want to join boards? No man.
39:34
So. So here's my thing.
39:35
Even to founders, starting companies is like keep your
39:38
boards so small. The less voices the better.
39:41
And so yeah, I got invite invited to join an Advisory
39:44
Board yesterday and I just like, hey, I will, I will talk to you
39:48
whenever you want. Just call me and I'll give you
39:51
my gut on stuff. But like I just don't do formal
39:54
meet. Like I'm not a formal meetings
39:56
guy. Yeah, and it's because of.
39:58
My my my favorite St. is a is a man.
40:01
He lived in the 19th century, so in the 1800s in England.
40:04
His name is Saint John Henry Newman.
40:06
So Newman centers all around the country are named for from him
40:10
and. He has this quote.
40:11
He said nothing great was accomplished by committee, but
40:13
by, you know, individuals, you know, persons responding to
40:16
grace. And that's just something that
40:19
has really resonated with me. And that's honestly why we built
40:21
the company the way we have where, you know, you're really
40:23
close to your work. We don't do management, we don't
40:26
do middle management kind of stuff.
40:30
But I also, I could expand my own board and I actively resist.
40:35
Not like there's two people, me and my investor.
40:38
And so if you asked me, Johan, I'd say no, to be honest.
40:43
And I'd say. Don't respect one dude that that
40:45
just made me respect you even more.
40:48
And yeah, honestly, I don't see myself starting a board anytime
40:50
soon 'cause I don't want to be beholden to anyone and I don't
40:53
want anyone else to have a a piece of my company either, so.
40:56
Yeah. Well, let's, let's end it here.
40:59
Jamie Baxter, Exodus 90. Hey Johan, great to be with you.
41:03
Thanks for the invite man, it's been fun.