Latest / Plausibly Live - The Dave Bowman Show Podcast / DDH - Alvin York

Transcript

DDH - Alvin York · Plausibly Live - The Dave Bowman Show Podcast

0:00
History is strange, it's alien, and it won't give us what we
0:04
would like to have. Dave Bowman, Let's get to Dave
0:09
does history. What do you got in front of us
0:11
today, pal? In 1918, the vast majority of
0:16
rural Americans live lives that were tied closely to their land.
0:21
They were far removed from the bustling cities and the
0:24
industrial cities of the East Coast.
0:26
They worked hard to provide for their families, face challenges,
0:30
poverty, limited education, and very little exposure to the
0:34
world beyond their little local community there.
0:37
Many in the rural areas, like those in the hills of Tennessee
0:41
where Alvin York was growing up, had only heard about the war in
0:45
Europe through newspapers or from traveling salesman.
0:49
For them, the conflict raging across the Atlantic seemed
0:52
distant, unconnected to their struggles of day-to-day life.
0:57
So why would a young farmer from Appalachia, someone who had
1:01
likely never left his county and his entire life, feel the need
1:05
to pick up a rifle, travel thousands of miles to fight in a
1:08
war that, on the surface of things, seemed to have very
1:11
little to do with him or his way of life?
1:14
After all, most Americans viewed the war in Europe with with
1:18
great skepticism. They were isolated from the
1:21
global political tensions. We had no clear sense of what
1:24
Americans presence in Europe or France could accomplish.
1:28
Many were reluctant to see their sons drafted.
1:30
They didn't want to see them shipped off to a foreign war,
1:33
uncertain of the reasons of the outcome.
1:35
And keep in mind that they had just re elected a president
1:38
whose entire campaign was he kept us out of the war.
1:42
But by 1918, the United States was in the war.
1:46
Thousands of American men, both from the cities and the rural
1:48
heartland, were called up to serve.
1:51
So why would someone like Alvin York, a devout Christian, a
1:54
committed pacifist, join the military?
1:58
What could he possibly expect as he was shipped out to fight?
2:02
For many of these men, including York, the decision to fight was
2:04
not easy. They wrestled with the question
2:06
of whether it was right to do this, what it truly meant to
2:10
serve their country. It's in this context that York's
2:14
story emerges today, not just as a tale of one man's battlefield
2:18
heroics, which we're going to talk about here in a minute, but
2:21
as a reflection of the struggles and sacrifices of countless
2:23
Americans who found themselves far from home, fighting for
2:27
reasons that they didn't really understand, in a war that they
2:30
never really imagined would affect them so deeply.
2:34
Sergeant York stands as one of the most decorated and
2:36
celebrated American soldiers of all time.
2:40
His actions on the battlefield this day in the Argonne Forest
2:43
in 1918 would make him a national hero.
2:45
But it was his deep faith, his humility, his commitment to
2:49
service that will make him an enduring figure in American
2:52
history. Dave Bowman with us with Dave
2:56
does histories we take a look at Sergeant Alvin York struggle for
3:01
someone that has pacifist intentions Dave and be
3:04
interesting to see I came to that decision.
3:07
Yeah, it's an interesting story because there's some personal
3:11
connection to that. My great my grandfather was also
3:14
a a conscientious objector, and it's something that I struggled
3:19
with accepting for myself. So when I see another soldier
3:23
who's in that same position, it, it intrigues me.
3:26
York was born in 1887 in Powell Mall, Tennessee, in the heart of
3:31
Appalachia there Bill. And in that era, it was not
3:36
unusual for someone never to leave their their home county to
3:39
just kind of hang out in the same place their their entire
3:43
life. He had a pretty typical of that
3:47
era childhood, limited formal education, rugged rural life in
3:52
Appalachia. But in 1915 everything would
3:56
change for him. In 1915 his his good friend died
4:01
in a bar fight and this caused York to experience a conversion,
4:06
a profound conversion to Christianity.
4:09
He would join something called the Church of Christ in
4:11
Christian Union, which was a pacifist denomination that
4:15
rejects violence and war. His new found faith would
4:19
transform him, turning him away from the vices of his youth and
4:23
toward a life of devotion, humility, and service to others.
4:27
He would become known not for his rowdiness of his youth, but
4:31
for a strong moral compass and deep commitment to his religious
4:34
beliefs. Again, very similar to my
4:38
grandfather in many ways. When war came knocking, though
4:42
York faced an enormous internal conflict.
4:45
His church taught him that to fight was wrong, that killing
4:49
was wrong, but his country was calling on him to fight.
4:54
He's struggling deeply with this idea.
4:56
How can you reconcile your faith with violence of the
4:59
battlefield? Could you in good conscience go
5:01
to war? Would he be able to take another
5:04
person's life, even if it was in defense of himself or his fellow
5:07
soldiers? These are not questions that
5:09
York takes lightly, nor should we in his personal
5:12
transformation from a brawling youth to a man of deep faith
5:17
would shape that would shape that journey as he eventually
5:21
would answer that call. He was very reluctant to enlist.
5:26
He was very many Americans in that era.
5:29
And and we don't really talk about this much anymore because,
5:33
you know, it's more than 100 years ago.
5:35
The United States was deeply divided in 1917 over whether or
5:40
not we should be involved with this war.
5:43
We have talked about the fact that Wilson's entire 1916
5:46
campaign was based on the based on the slogan, he kept us out of
5:51
the war. There was no reasonable reason,
5:56
I think in many Americans minds for us to get involved in that
6:01
war, for us to start down that road.
6:05
And so it was with great reluctance that most Americans
6:11
accepted this. Now by 1917, with the German
6:15
reinstitution of unrestricted submarine warfare, the Zimmerman
6:19
Telegraph, a few other incidents along the way, it was not.
6:24
It's a fascinating study to get into the, the, the propaganda
6:28
side of the American involvement in World War One.
6:32
And there's a great book called Selling the War in the Creole
6:36
Committee and these kinds of things and how became how it
6:39
became very patriotic to support America going into the war.
6:43
So when York is drafted into the army in 17, he faces a conflict.
6:48
Now his deep religious convictions compelled him to
6:52
seek that conscience objector status.
6:55
But the problem was the military just didn't really go along with
6:59
that. They don't and, and saw this
7:03
again in my own family, but the military was not buying that.
7:07
And they they denied the request to be a conscientious objector.
7:12
Now, at the time that was very limited and so he was not a big
7:18
surprise. You could only get a
7:20
conscientious objector if you were a Quaker or Mennonite, and
7:24
they were typically granted those, but the other other
7:26
denominations were not. He was drafted, and he was
7:29
ordered to report to duty for the 328th Infantry Regiment of
7:32
the 82nd Division. Despite the denial of his
7:36
conscience as objector, his struggle didn't end there.
7:39
He continued to wrestle with that conflict.
7:41
During training. He sought counsel from
7:43
superiors. This there's whole records of
7:47
these, these discussions and letters back and forth.
7:52
Eventually, York would conclude that serving in the military
7:55
could be compatible with his religious principles if it meant
7:59
protecting others and promoting peace.
8:03
That's an interesting approach to things because again, in the
8:08
context of a World War, if you are a pacifist, how do you
8:13
resolve those things? How do you, in your own mind,
8:16
settle that argument? In the face of pure evil like
8:21
Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan, it's probably easier.
8:26
But in the case of World War One, it wasn't.
8:29
Again, it wasn't absolutely clear.
8:33
Despite the attempts of the Creole Committee and and the
8:36
Wilson administration, it was not completely clear to a good
8:40
30 to 40% of Americans that Germany was at fault, that
8:44
Germany was the bad guy in all of this.
8:46
There were there was a lot of emotional feeling that both
8:50
sides at best were at fault and at worst Britain was at fault.
8:56
But he was able to conclude that if he was protecting peace,
8:59
promoting peace, and protecting others, he could go ahead and
9:02
serve. That allowed him to move forward
9:05
with a clear conscience and it would set the stage for what
9:08
would happen this day, October 8th, 1918, during in the Argonne
9:12
Forest, one of the most incredible moments of the First
9:17
World War. Dave, you're a little younger
9:20
than I am. I grew up in an era where I was
9:22
worried about Vietnam still going on.
9:24
What happens when I turn 18? Can be drafted?
9:28
Do I join a branch? Do I do whatever?
9:31
By the time I got 18, Vietnam was over for a few years and the
9:35
draft was not applying to my age group.
9:37
So what did I do? I went and joined the Air
9:39
National Guard. So why not anyway?
9:42
And great experience, great learning and great folks that I
9:45
ended up working with. We'll talk more about Sergeant
9:47
York after we get our Hurricane update with Heather Zayer when
9:50
we continue. Dave Bowman bringing us our
9:52
regular edition of Dave Does History a little abbreviated
9:55
with the weather we had to get in here, Dave.
9:57
But where are we at with Sergeant York now, Sir?
9:59
It's October 8th, 1917, sorry, 1918.
10:06
We are in the Argonne Forest in France, and the United States is
10:11
involved in the the spring push for the Allies, which is an
10:15
attempt to kind of end the war. And it's, it's really one of the
10:20
most intense fights in the history of the United States
10:24
Army. The battle is very dangerous.
10:30
And it's not clear that the United States is going to even
10:33
win this battle because there is a group of German machine gun
10:38
nests that are just slicing the Allies to to to bits.
10:44
The squad that York is assigned to is assigned the task of
10:50
silencing these these machine gun nests.
10:53
And he charges forward with his with his squad, but they are
10:57
just absolutely decimated. And by the time he is reaching
11:04
the German line, he's alone. His entire squad has been killed
11:10
or wounded or taken out. And in one of the most
11:14
incredible, I I don't know that you can even explain it
11:18
militarily. It doesn't make any sense.
11:22
Somehow or another Sergeant York, Alvin York, this this
11:27
unassuming pacifist from Tennessee manages to capture 132
11:35
German soldiers. He kills another 25 of them,
11:38
which silences all their machine guns, but he captures 132 of
11:43
them. It's an incredible military
11:47
accomplishment, but even more so, it's, it's an accomplishment
11:51
that that essentially saves his unit, his entire unit, the the
11:57
the brigade that he's a part of, because now this German defense
12:01
has been taken out and they are able to push forward in the
12:04
battle of Argon. The battle of the Argon force
12:07
goes the the United States wet. Can you imagine how I There are
12:15
books galore about. Him sleeping where they have it,
12:18
where they in a mess hall, What was.
12:20
Going on. So it's in the middle of the
12:21
whole battle and he just overwhelmed them.
12:24
He just basically scared them into surrendering.
12:28
Was he wearing a Superman suit it?
12:30
Might have been. It is something else.
12:34
I don't know that Superman had been invented yet, but.
12:36
Not yet. That's still 15 years off or
12:39
better. Yeah, it's an amazing story.
12:42
What happens next might be even more amazing.
12:46
And we get to that as we conclude, Dave does history on
12:48
this Tuesday. We continue in moments right
12:51
here here on WMNB. So Dave, how in the world does
12:57
he single handedly capture 132 Germans while he killed 25
13:03
others and silenced 35 machine gun nests?
13:06
It it sounds like it's almost a story that was made-up in order
13:10
to bolster morale or something. Well, I mean, oh, wait.
13:16
A minute. I didn't have you turned on here
13:17
if something had happened. There you go.
13:18
Now you're back. Try lingerie.
13:20
It works for me. Yeah, it it's one of those
13:24
accidents of war. And again, you're talking about
13:26
a very unassuming, humble man. And you're talking about a
13:30
situation in 1918, mid 1918 in Germany, where the German army
13:36
wasn't exactly stout. At that point.
13:40
They, many of them were looking for reasons to get out of the
13:43
war and looking for excuses to to surrender as well.
13:47
What ended up happening is in in the confusion of the battle, he
13:51
actually ends up behind them, behind their lines, and they
13:55
think they're surrounded. And so they surrender, which is
13:59
not all that unreasonable a thing.
14:01
There might be a little bit of embarrassment when they realize
14:04
that they surrendered to one guy, but you know, it's very.
14:09
I'd like to see that portrayed. I mean, did he tell him, take
14:13
all your arms, stack them up over in the corner over there,
14:16
come over and stand on this side?
14:18
I mean, how did that work? I'm not, I'm not sure how he did
14:21
at that point. Yeah, it's.
14:23
Like 3 of us are going to get shot, but the rest of us are
14:26
going to beat you up if that's all we got to do.
14:28
Here, except that again, you're talking about a morale situation
14:30
where the Germans really don't want to, they want get out of
14:33
this. So it's not unlike 1991 when the
14:39
when the Iraqi tanks were surrendering to airplanes
14:42
because they wanted to get out. So.
14:45
So there's that element of it. His actions, of course, are
14:49
going to earn him some awards. He's going to receive the Medal
14:54
of Honor next year in 1919 from the United States.
14:58
France will honor him with the CRO de Guerre.
15:00
The Legion of Honor. Italy awards him a similar
15:03
declaration Montenegro, which is an interesting country because
15:06
it's a country in 1918 that it's not than it is again.
15:10
They give him an award and all of these things make him the
15:13
most celebrated American soldier of World War One.
15:16
Once the word gets out, which isn't for another year and a
15:20
half before even his hometown finds out that what has happened
15:25
and then he has received the Medal of Honor.
15:28
He's very quiet about it, very unassuming.
15:31
And in my life experience, Bill, I have met now 4 Medal of Honor
15:37
recipients and I can tell you that they were all this way.
15:41
They don't want to talk about the Medal of Honor.
15:44
They want to talk about their fellow veterans.
15:47
They want to talk about fishing. They don't they don't want to
15:51
talk about it at all. And one of the most interesting
15:55
ones I met Dick because. Of the horrors of war because
15:58
they're just so humble and, and I, I just did my job.
16:01
That's what I was there to do. I, I think there's a lot of
16:03
that. Dick Pitman was the one that I
16:07
knew the best actually had a Medal of Honor from Vietnam.
16:11
And he would regularly forget to tell the VA that when he went in
16:15
for his, you know, checkups and appointments and stuff, because
16:18
Medal of Honor people go to the front of the line.
16:20
And so he would forget to tell them that he was a Medal of
16:22
Honor recipient, and unless they knew, they would just treat him
16:26
like any other veteran, which he was fine with, he didn't have a
16:29
problem with. Sure.
16:30
York was the same way. He returned home to Tennessee,
16:34
tried to live a very quiet life. He establishes the Alvin C York
16:38
Agricultural Institute, which is designed to provide rural
16:42
children with better educational opportunities.
16:45
He becomes a very vocal advocate for his fellow veterans, the
16:49
vet, the these many of these veteran service organizations
16:54
that we have today, veterans, fraternal organizations come out
16:57
of this war. And he's one of those leaders.
17:00
He leads efforts to boost economic development in the
17:03
Appalachian area, building infrastructure, advancing
17:06
education, and he rejects bill speaking engagements.
17:11
He doesn't want book deals. He doesn't want to commercialize
17:14
his wartime fame. He values his privacy.
17:18
He believes his actions were simply part of his duty, not
17:21
something to profit from. And it isn't until 1941 that he
17:26
agrees to let Hollywood produce the film Sergeant York, starring
17:29
Gary Carp, Gary Cooper, and most of us have seen that film at
17:36
some point or another. He lives a life of humility.
17:42
He lives a life that is representative of his beliefs
17:45
and his service. And it's, it's just a reminder,
17:51
I think, that you can go from your beliefs, even if you have
17:58
to think about them deeply and do the things that you have to
18:04
get done. And when he does those things,
18:06
he wants to remind us that, look, I was just the right guy
18:11
in the right place at the right time.
18:13
It wasn't anything special about me.
18:15
It just happened to be me in that spot at that time.
18:19
If it happens a year earlier, it probably doesn't end that way,
18:24
but it did. And so that's while Sergeant
18:27
Alvin York becomes the most decorated, Well, not the most
18:30
decorated, but one of the most famous soldiers in American
18:33
history. And we wrap up with Sergeant
18:36
York when we continue in a minute on Bill Mick Live.
18:40
Dave Bowman with Dave Does History on Bill Mick Live.
18:42
So, Dave, you said he had influence on other American
18:46
soldiers. What?
18:47
What was he doing in that regard, you said.
18:48
He had like his influence extends beyond things like
18:53
advocating for veterans and and veteran services.
18:57
I I think in in the same way that Washington set the example
19:01
of 2 presidential terms. There was nothing written that
19:04
said that, but everybody said if 2 is good enough for Washington,
19:08
2 is good enough for me. Yeah.
19:10
Until FTR, I I think that his humility and his unwillingness
19:16
to capitalize on his on his reps receiving the Medal of Honor
19:23
really influenced most of the the subsequent Medal of Honor.
19:26
And the Medal of Honor kind of changed during World War One.
19:29
It became more about of combat award.
19:33
You don't see Medal of Honor winners out there, you know,
19:36
writing books and selling movies and, and getting big speaker
19:41
fees because they're very humble about it.
19:42
I and I can't, you know, again, having met four of them and
19:45
gotten to know one of them really well, It, it, it's a very
19:50
humbling experience because they really don't want to talk about
19:54
it. They want to talk about what
19:56
they can do to help other people.
19:59
And it's, I think that all starts with Alvin York.
20:02
And I think that he's his influence.
20:05
And his story of how he goes from conscience as objector
20:09
pacifist to being willing to do this.
20:13
I, to me that's fascinating because I, again, I share a
20:16
similar path as well. To me, he's just a fascinating
20:20
guy. And it was this day, October
20:21
8th, 1918, that that action happened. 321-768-1240 if you've
20:28
got thoughts here, Line one, you're up on Bill Mick live.
20:31
Good morning. Mario Garcia, Cape Canaveral
20:36
great discussion. I just looked it up and the
20:41
Alvin York did that on October 8th and World War 1 ended about
20:46
30 days later. So you hit that that absolutely
20:50
right, Dave. The they, they were right at the
20:54
very end. Within a few weeks at the end of
20:56
the war, they probably knew it was going to end.
20:59
And so you hit that right on the on the on the button.
21:01
They probably were not interested in dying for, for the
21:05
last, you know, few days of the war.
21:07
For the lost cause, yeah. Yeah, at that point they knew,
21:10
they knew it was a lost cause. Also, everything I've read about
21:12
World War One, you know, they, they, they knew it was a lost
21:16
cause. You know, a year or more before
21:18
it ended it, it was just another silly ass bankers war.
21:23
Anyway, thank you very much. Mario, thank you.
21:27
We appreciate it. It's good to hear from you.
21:30
It's it's stunning, Bill, these last days of World War One are
21:36
are just you've got, you've got this this weird confluence of
21:41
the Germans trying to get out of everything.
21:43
And you have American generals who think that this is our last
21:46
chance to get a bunch of glory. And there will come a time on
21:50
the 11th day of the 11th month, in the 11th hour, shortly before
21:55
1045, before the Armistice goes into effect, that an American
21:59
general actually order his troops forward into a machine
22:02
gun attack. And they're being slaughtered.
22:04
And the German troops are actually waving that.
22:06
Please go back. We do not want to fire.
22:09
We're 15 minutes from the end of this.
22:11
And this American general will sacrifice American lives to gain
22:16
a few yards in a stupid war that didn't need to be fought.
22:22
That is something else. Line one.
22:23
You're up on Bill Mick live. Good morning.
22:27
Morning, Mr. Bill, and thank you for the program you're having
22:31
right now. My father was in World War 1.
22:34
He went in when he was 16 in 1917.
22:37
And then two other boys from school, the School of
22:40
Providence, RI, they signed up. They didn't check their 'cause
22:45
you were born at home, you didn't have to have a birth
22:46
certificate. They took those three boys
22:50
shipping now Newport, RI over to France.
22:53
When our daddy got out 1918, all he would let us know is when he
22:58
made it back to America, he kissed the American spoil says
23:02
thank you, dear Lord. And he just told us that he did
23:05
his duty and went to work. My mom had five brothers that
23:09
went in the World War 2, Sir, and they would not talk about
23:14
anything either. She lost three of them.
23:16
They were in five different branches.
23:18
Here's what happened was we got killed.
23:22
The other two made it with the Salvation Army.
23:25
That sent them back to the United States.
23:27
And guess what? When they came to America, they
23:30
kissed the American soil and they wouldn't say anything other
23:34
than they did their duties and went to work.
23:36
So thank you for your show at that time.
23:40
They were cheerless, but they're not.
23:42
But they were very, very fabulous.
23:44
Like Gentleman said, thank you. Have a beautiful day.
23:47
God Bless America. Thanks, Barbara.
23:49
Appreciate that. Good to have you along.
23:51
Dave, have you taken a look ahead in the next week?
23:54
We got a storm to face down between now and then, but
23:57
anything? Any thoughts for next?
23:58
Well, assuming we're here and I don't, you know who knows what,
24:01
who knows what tomorrow holds, 'cause we don't.
24:04
You know the name, but do you know the story When the French
24:07
army executed Margaretha Zell on October 15th, 1917?
24:11
It seems to be the justified execution of a known spy, but
24:17
was it? We'll take a look at the woman
24:19
who went down in history as the definition of feminine Wiles
24:24
being used to subvert men to her will.
24:27
Was the Mata Hari really a spy? We'll find out.
24:33
Oh, that sounds interesting. And of course, those traditions
24:37
picked up by women through the years and we were all subject to
24:39
that. So there we have it, yes.
24:41
We were. Dave Bowman, thank you.
24:45
We'll see you Tuesday. Best of luck folks, Hunker down.
24:51
Check out more stories from history at Dave Does History
24:54
dot. Org.