Latest / Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson / Dressage Naturally: Happiness, Harmony & the Truth About Training | Karen Rohlf | LFRF 50

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Dressage Naturally: Happiness, Harmony & the Truth About Training | Karen Rohlf | LFRF 50 · Live Free Ride Free with Rupert Isaacson

0:00
Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.
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Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.
0:03
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times bestselling author of
0:06
The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.
0:08
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0:34
So now let's jump in.
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Welcome back to the show.
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I've got Karen Rolf here.
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A lot of you already know who she is.
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Her work precedes her and her program.
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Dressage naturally has been one of the, I'd say lynchpin approaches to trying to
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bring something a bit more humane back to dressage, which unfortunately, over
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the last few decades seems to have become dressage in, for horses and humans a bit.
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But more than that, she, she's got a lot more to her and her life and her
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work and her philosophy is something which I've been, you know, wanting
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a chance to explore for a while.
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So I'm, I'm quite excited that she's one of the people who.
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Has really trot a path of sort of horses and self-actualization and bringing
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together certain aspects of nature and the mind through the equine field.
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So Karen, thank you for coming on.
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Can you tell us, you know, a bit about your work, who you are and, and sort of
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how you got here, or why did you get here?
1:46
Karen Rohlf: That's a lot.
1:46
Well, first of all, Rupert, thank you so much for asking
1:48
me to join you on this podcast.
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It's it's fun to, to be able to sit and, and speak with you and hang
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out with you for a little while.
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So I really appreciate being here.
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But let's see where to start.
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I mean, I, I started, and this is really important to mention because it's,
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it's pervasive through, through me.
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It's just a little kid.
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In love with horses.
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You know, I was just one of those horse, crazy horse girls.
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I want a horse.
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I want a horse.
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I want a horse.
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And lucky enough that my mom had a horse for a little while when I
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was seven and was all very low key.
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This was like property at the end of our street.
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She did some fox hunting for a little while.
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I was not a, a showgirl, you know, it was not like Where
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Rupert Isaacson: was this, where did you grow up?
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Karen Rohlf: This was on Long Island.
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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
2:36
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
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Smithtown Hunt the Smith.
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Yeah.
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Smithtown Hunt.
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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
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Karen Rohlf: Near where Harry Dele was.
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His place was near us.
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And yeah, in the historic town of Au New York, part of the Revolutionary War.
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So there's some history.
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But yeah, I was not into showing.
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It wasn't, that was never my goal.
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I just like loved horses and wanna hang out with horses and
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got a horse when I was a kid.
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And did pony club and all that, and mostly spent a lot of time alone with my
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horse in the bushes doing stupid things.
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But luckily I survived.
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So, the, the dressage training came through Pony Club.
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You know, we had to do dressage in order to do the fun stuff of jumping and, but
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my the, the first horse I had took off with me once during a a junior hunt, and
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we passed all the hunt's people and the red coats, and we galloped right through
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the hounds, which is really not okay.
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Yes.
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Rupert Isaacson: It's like taking your clothes off in St.
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Peter's.
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Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
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Oh my God.
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Yeah.
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So the Huntsman galloped after me, grabbed my horse, led me up to my mom and said,
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take this kid for dressage lessons so she can learn how to control her horse.
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Rupert Isaacson: Well that was quite enlightened when I was
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growing up hunting in England.
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They probably would've just taken us to before a firing squad for that.
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So yeah, things have improved a bit.
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Karen Rohlf: Yeah, so, so my mom, I was like, okay, my mom did what she was told.
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And when I outgrew that horse and then got another horse I ended up going, I
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was taking lessons at the barn where of Anne Grins who was on Long Island and
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she's now, you know, international level judge and well known in the dressage
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world, really a pioneer dressage in the USA and she took me under her wing
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and that second horse off the track thoroughbred with an old bow tendon doing,
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you know, local, local hunter classes.
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Ended up learning everything and we represented the Young
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Riders team four years.
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And, you know, through him I became a professional.
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I didn't mean to become a professional, I was gonna do something else.
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But you know, when you're a horse crazy girl and people pay you to
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ride their horses, you know, why get a real job when you can do that?
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And yeah.
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And so that's how I ended up being a dressage professional.
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Rupert Isaacson: But why dressage?
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I mean, it sounded like if your first love was to go off into the
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bush and do silly things with your horse and go hunting and jump and
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do all the fun stuff as you put it.
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Okay.
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So the dressage had to be a way to get control of your horse.
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Why did it, why'd you get bitten by the bug?
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Karen Rohlf: Yeah, it was at, at one point my horse was pre St.
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George and getting ready to event preliminary level and I realized I'm
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kind of a chicken and we'd go, you know, galloping up to these jumps.
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And in my mind I was telling my horse, if you wanna jump this, I'll stay on.
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But if you don't, that's okay with me.
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And I thought, I'm gonna die.
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'cause like you, that's not a way to, to be an event writer.
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Rupert Isaacson: No.
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Karen Rohlf: So, and I really, so I was a little bit of a chicken
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and I really was getting into the the complexity of the dressage.
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I thought it was like a amazing, I mean, I remember riding in my diary like, horses
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can go sideways, you know, and drawing a little diagram on my first leg yield.
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I'm like, I had no idea.
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And what was interesting being at Noll Farm, like I actually, I had
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my horse in the bushes behind my house, and then I would trailer
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maybe once a week to Noll farm.
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And, but I would go in the afternoons after school when all the fancy
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horses were done being schooled.
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So I never, I never got, like, I was never comparing.
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I would just go do what I was told.
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We'd learn our stuff and I'd go home and practice and I didn't
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know that that shouldn't work.
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It shouldn't work.
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That someone, a kid who doesn't know dressage on a horse
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that doesn't, no dressage.
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Should be alone training in the bushes.
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But we just kept going.
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And I, because I didn't go there and compare myself to all the fancy horses
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that Anne had, 'cause I never saw them, we just kept going of the levels and
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uh, and yeah, then I was just hooked.
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I, I love the precision.
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I think it's amazing that you can teach a horse to do dressage movements because
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it's like teaching an alien to play piano.
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I mean, you know, jumps, horses get it, I gotta get over the jump.
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Cows, horses get that.
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So I thought it was really amazing that I could teach a horse to
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prance and skip and go sideways.
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And just because we asked them to.
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When it works.
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It's amazing.
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Rupert Isaacson: She was clearly a very good teacher, Anne, right?
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Karen Rohlf: Yes.
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She is a really good trainer, really good teacher, really supportive of youth in
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dressage and yeah, she taught me to ride.
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She taught me to train.
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She taught me to teach and she gave me lots of opportunities to like
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ride her horses when she went away or teach her students when she went away.
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And I was so scared, but like, she, she really supported me
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and, and she's, you know, nice.
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She's very petite.
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She's fiery and strong, but very petite.
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How unusual
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Rupert Isaacson: in the
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Karen Rohlf: horse world.
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Yeah.
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Had to be clever.
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Yeah.
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She had to be clever.
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She's not a brute force rider.
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Yeah.
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You know, she, she had to be light,
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Rupert Isaacson: right?
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But as you know, I mean, so precision can very quickly
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turn into that tyrannical word.
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That pervades the dressage world and has done for generations.
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I was just reading yesterday max, you know, one of the August dead
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dudes, you know, of history, who was the teacher of Ziga, who was the
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teacher of Steinberg to eth on the right hand of God of German dressage.
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And
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you know, he talks endlessly about Correct, correct, correct, correct.
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Instead, a German accent must be correct.
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German accent and there's a tyranny to that word.
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And, and innate stress to that word.
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Mm-hmm.
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And the difficulty as you know and I know, is that we have
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inherited the dressage tradition.
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In fact, the entire tournament riding tradition of any discipline.
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Outside of Western from the military and with military comes being an asshole
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because you've actually supposed to be an asshole because you're supposed
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to teach the humans and the horses how to cope with stress under fire.
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So they idea is you stress them.
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I was at military school, that's what they did to us.
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So what surprises me is that given how incredibly toxic the dressage world is,
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and I know this 'cause I'm in it because I'm a trainer why was it, do you think
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that in that moneyed suburb of New York, somehow you and Anne dodged that bullet?
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Why did that not end up?
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Because, you know, when you're an impressionable teenager, the, and
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then, you know, and then, okay, you didn't start with the shows, but
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pretty soon you were at the shows.
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Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
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Rupert Isaacson: And you were rubbing shoulders with that culture,
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and to some degree, that culture must have rubbed off on you a bit.
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Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
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Rupert Isaacson: I mean, one bit, you know, only human.
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How did you, how did you and she manage to navigate, to
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not be sort of subsumed by it?
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Karen Rohlf: Yeah, I mean, I think, I think she was much more in that culture,
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but on the nice end of the scale.
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Right.
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So there was enough things just in the way, I mean, there's a
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sliding scale of this, right?
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Yeah.
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So, but the still horses lived in stalls until they came out to work.
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And they shouldn't use too much energy when they're turned out
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'cause we need that for the dressage.
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So like, there's still that, but that's very traditional, you know?
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Mm-hmm.
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Well, it's military, that's the word.
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But, you know, the language that she used was all educational.
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It wasn't force and make, and that's stupid thing, but
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it was still sy systematic.
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I, I think my personality is so, I'm so, I don't know, born with
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this like fierce independence.
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Like I, I don't join stuff.
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So somehow I was enough in love with the horse that I, I didn't buy into anything
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that was forced, that I saw going on.
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So I think Anne was on the nicer side of the sort of
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normal dressage things for sure.
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But even some of the just lifestyle stuff within dressage, I, you know, I
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was part of it that I had horses there.
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I trained training horses, but I, I never liked it.
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Like, I still wanted my horses to be turned out and I wanted
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to go do fun things with them.
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And as far as the, like, the precision for it was really clear that there
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is riding and training and there's competing and those are separate and
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there's a certain additional skill that you need when you compete, which
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is the art of making things look like they're working even when they're not.
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Right.
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So, in the moment of the test, you have to kinda keep it together
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and put a little more leg on and hold them a little bit there and
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kind of, you know, use that skill.
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It's a skill and it's not a bad skill, but it needs to be used consciously.
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So the whole idea of.
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You know, classical versus competitive in, you know, and I
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don't even, who knows what classical means, so maybe I won't use that.
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But there's training, which is you ride today, so tomorrow's better.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
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Karen Rohlf: Right?
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You ride today, so tomorrow's better.
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And in competition you ride.
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So right now looks as good as possible and is good as possible, but if
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it's not good, make it look good.
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And I think a lot of times people look at dressage and they think
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competitive dressage, and then they're learning the skill of make it look
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like it's happening, even if it's not.
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And then that's what's taught to train.
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But you,
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Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
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Karen Rohlf: if you use that for training, you're, you're missing the chance to take
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something apart, deconstruct, educate, so that then tomorrow it comes out
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Rupert Isaacson: and there's a key, there's, I, I think
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you hit it on the nail there.
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The,
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going into an arena, you know, arenas are where.
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One focuses attention, right?
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And things like gladiatorial combat happen, you know, with blood upon
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the sand or people being eaten by lions or doing a dressage test.
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So there is an innate pressure and stress simply to the
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environment of the arena itself.
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And the, the footing of the arena in sand was also partly to drain blood.
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Originally, not just it's, it's also, it's still there for the bull ring.
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You know, I live in southern Spain and you know, that's what an arena is.
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It's, it's, it's there to give grip and to drain blood.
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So it, if one understands that, one always knows that when one enters an arena, even
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in a training context, there's going to be an in an innate sort of a pressure, which
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comes simply from the spirit of the place.
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The Romans had a great.
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A great way of understanding this.
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I dunno, you're probably aware of this, that the Golish Celtic goddess, a French
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Celtic goddess Aona, who sometimes represented as a horse and sometimes
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represented as a female goddess with a horse and of fertility in Plenty as
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well, was one of the only goddesses ever to be adopted by the Roman Army.
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The Roman Army often adopted gods from other cultures because they'd
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adopt anything from other cultures that they thought was so, the
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culture of Myth Rat, for example, was a military cult, but a poona.
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She's about peace.
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She's not about war yet.
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The Roman cavalry adopted her and they, you see shrines to her in
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Roman barracks that have been dug up, you know, all over Europe.
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There's often a dedication that you see where, which was an inscription
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above the horse training area, which was a, a sort of a dedication to
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opponent herself and the spirit of.
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Spirits of the training ground.
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So there was an understanding that the training ground had
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its own spirits, had its own
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Karen Rohlf: mm-hmm.
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Rupert Isaacson: Ghost if you like.
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And I think we feel that today, but we maybe don't express it like that.
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And that force can feel benevolent or malevolent depending upon a
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whole range of external factors.
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Right.
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And internal factors.
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W when you were going into the arena to compete, as you say, you're this girl
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who actually likes to do turn your horse out and likes to do naturalistic things
15:47
with your horse and you're accepting.
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Okay, now I'm going into the gladiator phase.
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Talk, talk to us about your competitive career and how you as that type
16:01
of personality coat, are you in fact, deep down, very competitive
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and you just hide it quite well?
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Are you fiercely competitive?
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Karen Rohlf: It, there's, there's nothing like the feeling of having a good ride
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and being rewarded and acknowledged and getting a, a, a pretty thing and
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standing up there and everybody pointing at you going, look what you did.
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Right?
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So, so I mean, that feels good, but the, one of the reasons I stopped competing was
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because I would go do the class and then I'd, you know, pack up and go and I go,
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oh wait, I forgot to look at how I did.
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Right.
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So I realized that you could be riding one horse who tried his heart out
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and did everything that you asked and might never score better than another
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horse who clearly was stressed out and you were wrestling the whole time.
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But he was a good mover.
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So he is gonna get a better score.
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And I just found that the, the results.
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I mean, I could see within one horse you do one test and then over
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time see how that score improves.
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But I, I, I stopped being interested in how we did, and I
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thought, this is way too expensive.
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If I don't really care, like I'd, I like the professional opinion, but
17:24
I could get that a different way.
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I don't have to go to show, but I liked the showing as a
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moment to rise to the occasion.
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It's like, can I plan on having a best day?
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In this place at this exact time with this horse.
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Like that's exciting to me.
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But and I, and I, as part of my education, the showing dressage
17:50
levels was, was hu beautiful?
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Like we go, okay, this year's first level, okay, now we're gonna work on second and
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third level stuff and then we'll do this.
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And like, as a student learning to go through that progression on one
18:02
horse, the first time doing dressage to take the one horse from zero all
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the way up the levels was pure gold.
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Priceless to my education.
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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
18:12
Karen Rohlf: Because I know how a system can work and I know how it
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progresses and I know how doing this level then changes the stuff underneath
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and improves the basics and what do you need in order to do the next.
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So that's why I don't, I'm not at all anti-competition.
18:28
It's, it's just a date on the calendar, on a particular piece of dirt.
18:31
And can you rise to the occasion and train in a way that gets there?
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Then the, the tricky part is can you as a human with an ego
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Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
18:42
Karen Rohlf: Do that and still have boundaries, and still have things that
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you won't do in order to get that, even if you spent a lot of money on it,
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can you still do right by the horse?
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And so that's the, that's the competition and the mental, emotional part of that
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as being a human invested in this.
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Can you still, you know, be right by your horse?
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And that's a whole other skill set.
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Rupert Isaacson: Indeed, I mean, I'm, I'm sure once you had taken that professional
19:14
track, there would've been a certain amount of pressure to consistently win
19:19
or at least place because, you know, you need cred In those days, particularly
19:25
the most of the credibility was based upon your, your competition record.
19:30
How did you resist.
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And also with that first horse, how far did you, did you go with that horse and at
19:36
what point did you encounter limitations beyond which perhaps he could not go?
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Karen Rohlf: Yeah, he, he learned everything except massage, interestingly.
19:44
Interesting.
19:45
Yeah.
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And so, and I remember we, you know, we tried, and then there's one, I
19:48
remember one day when my trainer was riding him, which he rarely did.
19:54
And and he had a great pee off and a really good cantor, and
19:57
he, like, he should massage.
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But at one point it was getting a little, you know, hard and then he broke out
20:05
into this perfect pace and Ann and I just stopped and we said he, it's like he, he
20:12
just, he's trying, like, he tried so hard.
20:14
He, he broke the diagonal rhythm of his gait to try to please us.
20:18
And we both just looked at it and go, he's not gonna do massage.
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And that, that was fine.
20:24
He, he had done, he had done enough.
20:27
And so that, like, I remember that moment going.
20:30
He's really trying to figure out what the heck we want.
20:34
And we just decided that, you know, it wasn't fair to
20:38
push him to do that anymore.
20:39
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
20:40
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
20:40
So, and I just, I think I like on the professional track, yeah.
20:44
There's that moment where you're like, okay, it's going, it's going.
20:47
And yeah, here comes the part where someone, you know, puts a really
20:51
expensive, fancy horse under you.
20:53
And, and you know, so I was seeing that happening around and you know, oh,
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how come nobody and does it with me?
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And then like, but it's, there was one moment where, you know, I'm reviewing
21:06
my goals and I realized, like, I could imagine, oh, it would be so cool to
21:12
be on the podium at the Olympics, be, but then I realized, oh, I think
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that's the goal I think I'm supposed to have, because that's the narrow track.
21:19
What else are you supposed to do?
21:21
Mm-hmm.
21:21
And I realized.
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I was not interested in any, in most of the parts involved in having that happen.
21:29
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
21:30
Karen Rohlf: I didn't wanna pour my heart into horses that other people owned.
21:33
I was doing a lot of that and starting to get very heartbroken.
21:37
I'm like, I can't imagine being, I don't wanna be in that situation where I'm
21:42
just a, a rider on a sponsor's horse.
21:46
I really didn't wanna take, you know, I didn't have enough
21:48
money to buy my own horse.
21:50
I really didn't like the idea of flying horses all over the world.
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I didn't like how these competition horses were kept.
21:59
I like being home and I just like, wait.
22:02
I don't think I actually have that goal.
22:03
I think it's just sort of a nice idea, but it, it wasn't actually a goal that
22:08
I really wanted to do, so I let go of it and I realized I really enjoy just
22:17
working with any horse to help them.
22:20
Move better, or the horse and the rider understand each other
22:23
better and have fun and be healthy.
22:26
And you know, I just, I was in that scene and I realized it wasn't,
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it didn't fit my personality.
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Rupert Isaacson: How long were you in that scene?
22:38
Karen Rohlf: Gosh, from, you know, like from when I was like 16, started
22:44
really competing and then I came to Florida in 2003 and that's when I
22:51
left, you know, Ann's I left the, the training thing and I came to
22:55
Florida and that's when I had started dabbling in the natural horsemanship.
22:58
And I just came to Florida for the winter season for two months.
23:02
And after six weeks I called home and I said, I'm not coming back.
23:05
I like doing my own thing with my own horses.
23:08
I am free and I can do all my silly stuff.
23:11
And yeah.
23:13
Well,
23:13
Rupert Isaacson: that's interesting though.
23:13
You said most people go to Florida out of the dressage world to
23:16
do more sport dressage, right?
23:17
I mean that's
23:18
Karen Rohlf: Well, that's what I, that's what I did.
23:19
It just I had already started to fiddle around with natural horsemanship with
23:23
some horses of, with a horse of mine.
23:25
And yeah.
23:26
Then I had it where I went in Florida, just happened to be like seven miles from
23:30
Pat and Linda Pelli, who was, which was the program I was learning at the time.
23:35
And and I just, all of a sudden I was out of this training facility
23:39
with all the eyes on me and I was all by myself, you know, in this barn.
23:43
I mean, there were other people around, but I didn't know them and I could kind
23:47
of do whatever I want and I was like, yay, I can just be who I wanna be.
23:51
And and I just like that this is because I was really ready to quit horses.
23:55
Rupert, like, I was burned out.
23:58
I was working, I was tired of the attitude I was.
24:01
I'm tired of riding everybody else's horses and just, I was, I
24:06
thought I was gonna quit horses, so I did the winters, you know,
24:08
came down to just be in the warmth.
24:11
And a student had moved down here, so I was like, just work
24:13
with her and some other people.
24:15
And then I was like, oh, it's not horses that I wanted to quit.
24:18
It was, it was the professional dressage trainer lifestyle and
24:23
circumstance that I wanted to quit.
24:26
And so now I was in Florida riding bareback and bridal
24:29
list as much as I wanted to.
24:31
And I was a little kid in love with horses, and I'm like,
24:34
just more of this, please.
24:37
Rupert Isaacson: How did you afford it though?
24:37
Because, you know, if you're not coming from a money background and
24:40
Karen Rohlf: mm-hmm.
24:40
Rupert Isaacson: You're now making your living as you say, riding
24:43
other people's horses up the levels.
24:45
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
24:45
Rupert Isaacson: And then you make a sudden break.
24:47
You're in Florida, those parts of Florida where say the Perellis live,
24:51
that's not a cheap area of Florida.
24:52
That's not a cheap area.
24:54
So how did you, how did you manage to make that transition?
24:58
Karen Rohlf: Yeah, no, it's a good question.
24:59
But I mean, I was working my butt off in New York and giving
25:03
a lot of it to the facility.
25:05
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
25:05
Karen Rohlf: So, you know, I brought I had three horses in
25:08
training here, plus my own horse.
25:12
And it's amazing how when you get to keep all that money and rent the stall, I was
25:17
doing all the work myself, but, you know, I was in my mid thirties, I could do it.
25:20
Yeah.
25:21
And you know, and I was just like doing the math.
25:23
I'm like, this is actually better.
25:27
Yeah.
25:28
I'm making more money riding fewer horses.
25:30
And you know, it's just different kind of work.
25:33
But it was time and then you,
25:34
Rupert Isaacson: it
25:34
Karen Rohlf: was time to change.
25:35
Rupert Isaacson: So you started building up at that point, a
25:38
clientele and a, and a practice.
25:40
Mm-hmm.
25:41
How long did it take you to bring that new practice into coherence, into the dressage
25:47
naturally thing that we know today and w.
25:50
Then what is dressage naturally and and how does it differ from what
25:56
other people generally would think of?
25:59
Karen Rohlf: Yeah, well, I came, I came to, I'd started fiddling
26:03
around with, you know, partnership based, natural horsemanship, be
26:06
kind of stuff in the late nineties.
26:09
And so then 2003 I came here and then I ended up going and taking
26:14
a clinic with Linda, and then they were just really generous then
26:18
Rupert Isaacson: lieutenant.
26:19
That would be
26:20
Karen Rohlf: Linda, sorry?
26:20
Linda Pelli.
26:21
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, Linda Pelli.
26:23
Karen Rohlf: Okay.
26:23
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
26:23
Yeah.
26:23
Karen Rohlf: And, and you know, that point mixed up, like no sport people or
26:27
dressage people for sure were anywhere interested in anything they're doing.
26:31
But I had seen some results with my horses, so I was curious
26:35
to learn a little bit more.
26:37
And they were really excited that a dressage person was interested.
26:39
So they were very generous and spent the, you know, a lot
26:43
of time with them in Florida.
26:44
And then they invited me to go to Colorado with them.
26:46
So I like, took, took some horses and went to Colorado with them.
26:50
And so for a couple years I kind of just did that, lived outta my horse
26:54
trailer and schlep back and forth from Florida to Colorado and was very happy.
27:03
And then, and then I ended up buying some property here in Florida.
27:08
And and then I was like, okay, I'm done.
27:11
I'm not hanging around with the pres anymore.
27:13
Like, I need to, you know, work as a trainer and.
27:17
I had to figure out like how, like I, I have all this like
27:22
foundational partnership stuff.
27:23
I have my dressage training.
27:25
I'm like, how am I gonna figure out, like when do you do what?
27:28
So I ended up writing the book Dressage Naturally.
27:31
And that was started out as a process for myself of like, how do I decis,
27:36
how do I know when to do what, when, when do these skills come in?
27:39
When do these skills come in?
27:41
How do they dovetail?
27:42
How do they reconcile?
27:43
'cause some of them is so opposite, like most natural horsemanship
27:47
then was like so Western and the horses weren't moving anywhere the
27:50
way I wanted my horses to move.
27:53
So, yeah, in 2005, six, I wrote the book and made a video and it came out in 2007.
28:01
And so it was during those years that I really sat myself
28:04
down and go, how does this.
28:06
How does this fit together?
28:07
And I'm, I'm pretty happy with how it turned out.
28:09
And so, so dressage naturally really is, for me, hopefully
28:13
the best of both worlds, right?
28:15
The mental emotional parts that I learned from more partnership, e training,
28:19
and the physical from the dressage.
28:21
But it's, I think how it's different than most dressage training is, it zooms out.
28:28
It's like dressage is just one little piece of my time with my horses.
28:35
Like if any particular horse, okay, so five days a week I spend 40 half hour to
28:40
45 minutes doing dressage, quote unquote.
28:43
That's a small piece, but it really takes a holistic view.
28:48
And so my goal for it is that it helps, you know, horses and rider enjoy the
28:53
process of learning to be in harmony, but you have to have a holistic view of this.
28:59
And so what I, I have a.
29:03
Training scale that I use.
29:05
But underneath that is like the, the principles and the priorities.
29:10
So much of the humans get like laser focused on techniques.
29:14
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
29:15
Karen Rohlf: And there's so many different techniques and yeah, they
29:17
can all work or not depending, but where things fall apart I think is when
29:22
everything gets really narrow focus and no one's zooming out and looking
29:26
at the horse's life and, and the, the holistic view of where this silly folly
29:35
of training my horse to prance falls in.
29:39
Right?
29:40
So, you know, so there's like some, some basic principles.
29:44
So number one, five ba five basic principles.
29:48
If I had to pick the, the top five.
29:50
So one dressage should be for the horse.
29:53
The basics should be for the horse and feel good to the horse.
29:57
It's about healthy movement.
29:59
Principle two, everything comes from and returns to relaxation.
30:05
Three, mental, emotional, and physical are all equal doorways to the goal.
30:10
And four, precision.
30:12
You talked about precision.
30:13
I think precision arrives outta the possibilities that play creates.
30:19
And then the last, well, principle five is dressage can only be as good
30:24
as the partnership, the communication, the biomechanics and writing skills
30:28
combined and all of those matter.
30:31
So, so no matter what we do, like those principles need to be upheld.
30:37
And then, and then layered on that as these three priorities, one,
30:43
our respon, our responsibility to the horse, number one priority.
30:47
They did not ask for any of this and their entire life experiences in our
30:53
hands, and we owe it to them to give them.
30:56
You know, a, a decent life at least priority two is what I call
31:00
the happy athlete training scale.
31:02
So there's like prioritization within that and I can talk about that in a minute.
31:06
And then priority three is our never ending quest for our own self-awareness
31:11
and our own personal development.
31:13
So, we can be the best humans that we can be for our horses.
31:17
'cause horses make us happy, but they shouldn't have to.
31:23
Rupert Isaacson: That's a good quote.
31:26
Karen Rohlf: I know that's a lot in there.
31:27
Boom.
31:28
Rupert Isaacson: Let's talk about your training scale.
31:30
So some listeners and viewers will know what the training scale is, and
31:36
Karen Rohlf: yeah,
31:37
Rupert Isaacson: people talk about the training scale, but of course the training
31:40
scale is simply a set of principles coming largely outta the German school, which
31:46
is only one of the various schools of dressage, but it happens to be the one.
31:52
That prevails for historical reasons in what we think of as competition, dressage.
31:58
And there's an interesting accident of history that created that, which probably
32:03
is worth telling that story in a moment.
32:05
But, so what is it, if I remember correctly, it's rhythm, relaxation
32:14
contact or connection.
32:16
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
32:17
Rupert Isaacson: Impulsion.
32:19
Straightness and collection.
32:21
Isn't that right?
32:22
Yeah.
32:22
More or less,
32:22
Karen Rohlf: yeah.
32:23
Something like that.
32:24
Yep.
32:24
And there's
32:24
Rupert Isaacson: some
32:24
Karen Rohlf: little variations.
32:26
Rupert Isaacson: There's some variations on this.
32:27
Some people call it a scale and some people call it a pyramid.
32:30
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
32:31
Rupert Isaacson: And one of the things I've always wondered at
32:33
with that is, well, two things.
32:35
There always seem to me one crucial word missing from it, and one
32:40
absolutely ignored part of it.
32:44
And what you said just now, you actually.
32:48
Spoke about the missing bit, and you spoke about the ignored bit.
32:52
So the missing bit to me was joy.
32:56
When you see a horse in nature, pull all the fancy moves, when do you see that?
33:01
You see that when a horse is playing, when a horse is flirting, courtship, rituals,
33:07
and when a horse is fighting, they lower their center of gravity just like we do.
33:11
Mm-hmm.
33:12
We dance, we fight, we play, we lower our center of gravity, and we move in
33:15
three dimensions as opposed to when we're just walking to the toilet,
33:19
when we walk in two dimensions or walking over the hill or whatever.
33:23
And that seemed, that's the dressing of the horses to be able to move in those
33:28
three dimensions for whatever reason.
33:31
But if horses are doing this in behaviors of passion and ecstatic emotional,
33:44
states, then surely that ought to be the primary thing through the training
33:55
scale because otherwise the horse could only do it in a sort of mechanical echo.
33:59
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
34:00
Rupert Isaacson: But they wouldn't be able to actually do it because
34:04
they wouldn't be feeling it.
34:04
So that would be the first thing.
34:05
And you did just now mention the enjoyment.
34:08
So my ears pricked up.
34:09
And then the other one is of course, the second phase of that training
34:13
scale that you always see relaxation.
34:15
It's the one everybody seems to ignore when one goes into your
34:20
average sport barn, you see everything except relaxation.
34:25
Mm-hmm.
34:25
And no one's relaxed with two legs or four.
34:28
The environment is set up so that you can't be because whether it's a horse
34:34
boiling over in a stall or whether it's a human terrified and anxious, or.
34:40
Fierce and ambitious, or the whole environment is artificial or whatever.
34:49
Just the fluorescent lights you're doing it under or whatever, you
34:51
know, it, it, the entire thing is designed to kill relaxation.
34:56
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
34:56
Rupert Isaacson: And
34:56
Karen Rohlf: also, and that's why that, sorry
35:00
Rupert Isaacson: go ahead.
35:00
Karen Rohlf: That idea of everything comes from and returns to relaxation.
35:03
Yeah.
35:03
That doesn't mean that in between you're supposed to stress your horse out.
35:05
It just means a well-regulated nervousness.
35:07
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, a hundred percent.
35:08
I mean,
35:08
Karen Rohlf: and it's like these bell curves of like, you're, you
35:11
have start with a calm, cool horse that loves his life, and then you
35:15
do hard stuff and then it returns.
35:17
And it's not just that, like training just gets harder and harder and harder and
35:20
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.
35:21
Or you can start with a five breathing dragon.
35:23
I mean, you, you come in on a stallion who's feeling very stallion today.
35:26
Mm-hmm.
35:27
But he's still in his authentic self.
35:29
He's, he's like, mm-hmm this is where I am right now.
35:32
And one has to be relaxed enough to say, okay, that's cool.
35:35
Let's be there together.
35:36
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
35:37
Rupert Isaacson: And to.
35:38
It always seems to me that the mark of a really good horse human
35:42
partnership is that you can fizz the energy up enormously, but then when
35:46
you drop the rain, it's over and you're both like, ah, yeah, okay.
35:49
That was cut.
35:50
That was cool.
35:50
That was fun.
35:51
Now let's go relax.
35:53
And there was an innate relaxation through the whole thing even.
35:56
Exactly.
35:57
Everyone was at the apex of a physical thing together.
36:01
Right, right,
36:01
Karen Rohlf: right.
36:02
And yeah, you take that, that horse, that's a little fizzy when he comes out.
36:04
It doesn't mean you just sit there and stare at him until he is relaxed.
36:07
It just means that that priority is like at the end of this thing,
36:11
you know, the goal is that he's like more relaxed than Yeah.
36:15
When we, you know, you're just trying to, to feel like that's the, the
36:18
goal we've got endorphin, cortisol.
36:20
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
36:21
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
36:21
And horses can be up like relax, doesn't mean.
36:24
Dead.
36:25
Exactly.
36:26
Rupert Isaacson: So, no, exactly.
36:27
Exactly.
36:28
So it's, it's interesting to me that you've, you've, you've
36:30
yourself pinpointed those two
36:33
Karen Rohlf: mm-hmm.
36:33
Rupert Isaacson: Missing things because I've often wondered why
36:36
that isn't more spoken about.
36:38
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
36:38
Rupert Isaacson: I
36:38
Karen Rohlf: mean, you take a, you know, think of, you know, how you would be
36:43
sitting if you were bored outta your mind or feeling or peed or scared, you know,
36:49
just think of what posture that would be.
36:51
And then if someone came along and put a strap on to make my head go there and
36:55
then did something with my shoulders and make, put my body in the shape of
36:59
someone who is engaged in athletic, you just described my, just get me excited.
37:03
Like there's a million dollars over there.
37:04
Ready.
37:05
He get set, go do it.
37:06
Rupert Isaacson: You just described my school days.
37:08
Karen Rohlf: I described your what?
37:09
Rupert Isaacson: My school days.
37:10
Karen Rohlf: Oh, right.
37:13
Yeah.
37:13
So yeah, so this training scale that I have, the dressage scale
37:19
can fit inside there somewhere.
37:22
But for me, the base is happiness.
37:25
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
37:26
Karen Rohlf: Right?
37:26
Happy, healthy, calm content, comfortable for the horse and the
37:30
human meaning, like deal with your own stuff before you show up to your horse.
37:35
Right?
37:35
Because frustrations, anger, whatever garbage that we
37:40
humans, you know, carry with us.
37:41
So the first is happiness and, and what I'm, I like to think about when
37:47
I'm not with my horse, how's his life,
37:50
Rupert Isaacson: right?
37:50
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
37:51
Is he just staying in a stall or is he be like, no, I'm not good, you know, so.
37:55
Mm-hmm.
37:55
And so just happiness and, you know, that's a weird word,
37:58
but like, just not unhappy.
38:01
Like feeling okay.
38:02
Like, yeah, life is good.
38:03
Yeah.
38:04
And then, and then from there is harmony.
38:07
So the next layer up is harmony.
38:09
So that's the second priority.
38:11
That's where like self carriage comes in, that you, you and your horse
38:14
together can be in the space and there's trust, there's a attentiveness,
38:18
there's attunement, you're, there's an emotional connection, right?
38:22
So when, when you and your horse, you know, and two individuals that are happy
38:28
are gonna be easier to harmonize together.
38:30
And if two beings are in harmony with each other, then.
38:36
Okay.
38:36
Like, I'm good.
38:37
You're good.
38:38
We're good together.
38:39
Now, the next priority we can think about is communication.
38:42
All right?
38:43
And because if you're in harmony already, but you know when you
38:47
enter the space, your horse isn't running away or attacking you.
38:50
Like, now we can talk, right?
38:52
So now we can think about the quality of the communication,
38:55
responsiveness, eagerness, understanding, willingness, mental connection.
39:02
So many dressage problems can be traced to poor quality communication.
39:07
The horse looks in the good shape, the rider is told good by their instructor,
39:13
even though they feel like they have to ice their hands after their
39:16
ride and their legs are cramping up.
39:19
So to me, what it looks like means zero.
39:23
If the quality of communication between the horse and rider isn't
39:28
understood, isn't magical, isn't light.
39:31
So.
39:32
If you're two happy individuals, you get along fine together and
39:36
now they understand each other.
39:38
Now we can start thinking about how the horse is moving.
39:43
We don't care how the horse moves.
39:45
If the horse and rider are hating each other and the horse is trying to run out
39:50
the arena, like it's just ridiculous.
39:52
Right.
39:52
Who cares?
39:53
But that happens a lot in dressage.
39:55
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
39:56
Karen Rohlf: Right.
39:57
So, mm-hmm.
39:58
You know, and, and PS when I go through these steps is even someone coming
40:05
with dress, very dressy problems.
40:07
When I work on the quality of the communication and the harmony and the
40:10
happiness, already the dressage already the horse is moving better, they're moving
40:15
differently, they're moving more freely.
40:17
The riders can let go because they trust, you know?
40:20
So there's already improvements in the horse's biomechanics.
40:24
Right.
40:24
So if the horse energized, balance rhythmic aligned, are they physically
40:30
connected and moving in a healthy way?
40:33
So that's the fourth priority.
40:34
And then if you got all that now, no matter what sport you're in now
40:40
you're ready for the sport specific.
40:42
So that would be the upper level dressage, the fancy stuff, right?
40:47
That you know, anything that you're, you're doing sports
40:49
specific skills, you're becoming more agile, athletic, strong.
40:54
You're strengthening the muscles of a happy, harmonious, connected under,
40:59
you know, understanding horse's, moving really freely and healthily.
41:03
You're strengthening those muscles, you know, coordination,
41:07
power, things like that.
41:09
And so when to keep that zoomed out view, you can start to see.
41:17
That a lot of dressage problems are not dressage problems.
41:21
There's something further down on the scale, and so many problems with
41:27
horses can be solved by just lifestyle changes or just taking little small,
41:34
simple things and just getting the communication between the horse and rider.
41:38
What did you ask for?
41:39
Did your horse answer you?
41:40
Did you give him feedback?
41:42
Did you tell him yes?
41:43
Was he feeling successful?
41:45
Can he anticipate it the next time?
41:48
Or are you just controlling him and wanting him to be mindless?
41:51
Some people want their horses to be mindless.
41:54
I like my horses to think.
41:56
So, so that scale I just find so helpful because it, it incorporates a lot, but
42:04
it also gives you some decision making.
42:07
Ways to decision make in your horse's training.
42:10
Like, well, this is not working well.
42:11
Is there anything below there that I could, you know, improve?
42:15
And it helps remind to have a holistic view that like how your
42:21
half passes is way up on that scale.
42:25
And there's this, an example I like to give.
42:28
I mean, you can probably think of a million examples, but, you know, dressage
42:32
clinic in a covered arena, young horse comes in, doesn't wanna go in the arena,
42:39
bulks at the door, they get him in.
42:43
Now he's in, now he's tense and he's kind of frozen and not going forward.
42:49
Come on, come on, get your leg, tap him.
42:51
Pretty soon the instructor's behind him with a lunge whip.
42:54
Now they're chasing the horse around the arena.
42:57
This is not dressage, but that was a dressage.
43:01
So they had to make it look like it was working when it wasn't.
43:05
And I'm sitting there going, there's an outdoor arena right next door that he
43:09
warmed up in that he was perfectly fine.
43:11
So for me, the choice would be stay in the covered arena.
43:16
But the goal is that he's confident in there that he trusts
43:20
you, that you have some harmony.
43:22
They were ruining harmony, they were chasing him with a whip
43:25
that's not very harmonious, right?
43:28
So stay in the covered arena and let the horse go, oh, I was
43:32
scared, but actually it's okay.
43:33
Or if you really wanna take advantage of the dressage of professional there
43:38
and have a dressage lesson, go outside.
43:41
'cause he is fine outside and you can actually do dressage.
43:44
And I'm watching this going, what the heck?
43:47
But they all went to the default.
43:50
Mode of, we must make it look like it's working, even if it's not.
43:55
And that what you said, that militaristic background attitude comes in.
43:59
He must, and I'm thinking No, he, he doesn't must.
44:03
Rupert Isaacson: Well, and, and the idea that one is doing this
44:05
to perform for a judge rather than
44:07
Karen Rohlf: Right
44:08
Rupert Isaacson: for its own sake is so built in.
44:12
I remember, I forget where we were training a horse in Pife and
44:17
the, we got the horse really gave this beautiful result and someone
44:22
said, yeah, but that wouldn't get you a nine in front of a judge.
44:25
I'm like, absolutely it wouldn't.
44:27
Karen Rohlf: Yeah,
44:28
Rupert Isaacson: because that's not the point of what we're trying to do here.
44:31
There could come a day where that might be a relevant thing to
44:35
think about, but that's not today.
44:38
Why, in your mind, are you already there?
44:42
Why are you not just within the joy of.
44:45
PFA, which is a joyful thing.
44:47
It, of horses do it in nature when they express joy.
44:50
And but you could tell that that person that made that comment was actually not
44:55
coming from a bad place, that it was just what had been drummed into them.
44:59
Karen Rohlf: Exactly.
44:59
Rupert Isaacson: And again, the tyranny of, of correctness
45:02
and then what even is Correct.
45:04
One of the things that yeah, if I'm, if I'm, I, I've, I've abandoned giving
45:08
clinics, actually what I will only do now is workshops where a certain
45:13
number of people will bring a certain number of horses, will kind of have
45:16
an idea of where they're at and where we quite like what concepts would we
45:22
like to introduce and are there things that maybe we would like to polish?
45:28
And then I'll, I'll involve everybody.
45:31
And if a horse is that way I don't have to rush and say There is this hour in which
45:36
this person and this horse, because that.
45:39
I, I fell into that trap and it began to stress me.
45:41
And then I realized I was stressing the horse and the rider as well,
45:45
because I was projecting my stress.
45:47
And I was like, hold on, hold on, hold on.
45:49
And, and it got to this point, I was giving a clinic, an island, and the, the
45:53
horse was so tense and I said, you know, we should just take off his saddle and
45:56
bridle and let him just walk around in here and let him roll and let him explore.
46:01
And luckily the rider saw the sense in that, and I said, you know, don't worry.
46:06
Just let him do that and then put him away and then come back an hour
46:10
from now, because I, I guarantee you, you, we won't run out of time here.
46:14
But anything that we do with the horse in this emotional state would be pointless.
46:17
Right.
46:18
Because we'd just be forcing something.
46:21
Frankly, it could even be dangerous.
46:23
Why, why, why do that?
46:25
And then I was, oh, right, okay.
46:26
I've been going about this the wrong way.
46:29
It should be collegial, it should be collaborative.
46:31
It should be something different when we come together for some
46:35
sort of learning experience.
46:37
What, so it's, it's very interesting to me what you're saying, but now
46:45
talk us through, paint us a picture.
46:47
Let's say you are out giving a clinic or somebody comes to you and they, they do
46:53
come say, okay, I'm a dressage writer.
46:55
I've got this dress problem.
46:56
It's my half pass, it's my pf, it's my flying change, whatever.
47:01
And you can tell that what they need is happiness and harmony.
47:07
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
47:09
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
47:09
And what they want is something, what we call in German in sport liquor, you know?
47:15
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
47:15
Yeah.
47:15
Rupert Isaacson: How are you going to get them to see what you, and
47:21
then that's A, and then B, what actually would you do for them?
47:25
As you may know, if you've been following my work, we are also horsey folk here.
47:30
And we have been training horses for many, many years in the manner of
47:35
the old classical dressage masters.
47:38
This is something which is often very confusing for people.
47:41
We shine a light on that murky, difficult stuff and make it crystal clear.
47:47
If you'd like to learn to train your horse in the manner of the old masters and
47:51
really have fun and joy for you and your equine, go to our website, heliosharmony.
47:57
com Sign up as a premium member.
48:00
and begin to take the Helios Harmony course, which will take you from zero
48:04
to the Piaf, where the horse is dancing on the spot in hand on the ground.
48:10
And then from there, you can develop out to anywhere you want to.
48:15
Heliosharmony.
48:16
com to unlock the secrets of the old masters.
48:20
Karen Rohlf: Okay.
48:21
Those a low that you.
48:23
Brought this up and shared your experience with teaching clinics, because you
48:28
know, in talking to lots of students and horse owners and professionals,
48:34
there's a, there's a group that isn't interested in this sort of conversation,
48:38
but there's a whole group of us that is, and there's this thing where the clients
48:48
don't always feel good about what's happening, but they feel like they have
48:52
to follow what the professional says.
48:55
And the professional doesn't like what's happening, but they feel like they have to
49:01
have meet the expectation of the client.
49:03
Yeah.
49:03
And so this is so good that you did that because both of them are feeling something
49:08
ain't right and no one's saying anything.
49:10
And I, by the
49:11
way,
49:11
Rupert Isaacson: I had another experience where I did the same
49:13
thing and the rider never came back.
49:14
They just thought I was full of shit.
49:16
You know,
49:16
Karen Rohlf: that's okay.
49:17
Rupert Isaacson: I wouldn't
49:18
Karen Rohlf: be able to do anything.
49:18
But see, this is okay and this is where.
49:21
So many problems that horses have are made.
49:25
It's a, it's a money decision.
49:28
Mm.
49:28
I don't wanna lose that client, or I don't wanna, so I think we all have
49:32
to be really brave in what I tell my professionals is like, you have to go
49:37
on record of stating what you're seeing.
49:40
That's what you're there for, your professional opinion.
49:43
And so I'll give an example of a clinic I gave and let me see which one.
49:50
Okay.
49:51
I have a couple, well this one, this is just a normal student.
49:55
And she was like, she had trouble getting to the clinic 'cause her
49:58
force wouldn't load in the trailer.
49:59
And then she got there and she wanted to work on her lateral work.
50:03
And so I, I, I would meet them where they are like, okay, show me your warm up.
50:08
Show me your shoulder ins.
50:09
Okay.
50:10
Show me the Shoulder Inn.
50:11
It was a mess.
50:12
So like, okay, well just talk me through, you know, your aids.
50:16
What are the aids for the shoulder in?
50:17
And so usually it's like a paragraph.
50:20
I'm like, okay, I got the paragraph of AIDS you're using for the shoulder
50:23
in, and then and they're like, okay.
50:26
So it was like leg and nessy.
50:28
It's like, okay, well, you know, are those aids working just in general?
50:34
So like, what happens when you just put your leg on and ask
50:37
the hind end to step under?
50:39
And so I just, just show me that and like, nothing.
50:42
You know, she's like squeezing with his purse.
50:44
So, and then like, okay, well show me what happens when you move
50:46
the shoulders in, like nothing.
50:48
So I was like, okay, all right, well that, this makes sense that
50:52
your shoulder isn't working.
50:53
'cause like, so like, I was like, let's, let's pick one, let's just work on,
50:58
you know, moving the shoulders around and okay, we got something like that.
51:01
I said, you know.
51:03
How about like, let me move the horse's shoulders, and you just
51:06
follow, so I move the horse's shoulders and she's twisting around.
51:08
So I'm like, okay, now try not to twist when, when I move the shoulders.
51:11
And then I was like, would you like, and then we got it going and I was like,
51:14
would you like to learn how to do that?
51:16
You're like, what?
51:16
I just did.
51:17
So pretty soon she's on the ground.
51:19
Now.
51:19
Could I have said we're gonna start with groundwork and do the basic yields?
51:23
And she came for shoulder for lateral work help?
51:26
Probably not.
51:26
Yeah.
51:27
But I followed the logic.
51:29
I was like, show me.
51:30
And I, I always like to do this.
51:31
I, I like students to just show me what they've got.
51:34
I rarely go in and just orchestrate a lesson.
51:36
I'm like, you show me what you are doing and tell me what's not
51:39
working and tell me what isn't.
51:41
I'll see if I can help.
51:42
And so I try to find the biggest pieces of disharmony and like, let's
51:47
clear, let's, let's clear that up.
51:49
If it's a trust thing, then it's like, okay, well what are you worried about?
51:53
If you're, don't trust your horse to let go of the reins?
51:55
What do you think is gonna happen?
51:57
Are they gonna run off?
51:58
Are they gonna.
51:59
Not be able to steer or like, what's the thing?
52:01
And then we work on that.
52:03
So I do a lot of talking to my students.
52:06
I ask them questions.
52:07
I listen to their tone of voice, and I, through those questions, we
52:13
usually go, okay, does it make sense that if we do this, it'll help that?
52:18
Yes, okay, you want something for that?
52:20
Great.
52:21
And now we're together.
52:22
And if I really butt heads with someone, then you know, they don't have to
52:27
stay, they don't, you know, that's, I'm, I'm not gonna compromise that.
52:32
But yeah.
52:33
And I, once I once worked with, I did a clinic and the owner of the
52:36
facility was a Grand Prix rider, and she's like, at the end of the clinic,
52:40
she's like, Hey, can you help me?
52:41
I've got this big horse and I need help with the canter pirouettes.
52:45
He's really gets, you know, he's heavy.
52:48
So I watched her ride around and we stopped to talk.
52:53
And the horse, I was standing in front of her and the horse kept
52:56
like wanting to inch forward.
52:57
And so she had like a grip on the reins and I was like, oh, just drop the reins,
53:00
like, we're gonna talk for a minute.
53:01
And she dropped the reins and the horse would walk forward.
53:03
So she'd, pretty soon she'd be gathering up on the reins holding.
53:06
It was like just standing there.
53:08
So it was clear the horse couldn't stand still on a loose reign.
53:13
And so I started talking about the importance of this and she
53:17
thought that was really boring and went on and did her thing.
53:21
And I was like, no, you really need to be able to stop your horse from your seat and
53:26
drop the reins and have 'em stay there.
53:28
And and she again thought, no, she needed to half halt and do all this fancy stuff.
53:33
And finally she wouldn't listen to me.
53:36
So I was like, just go ride around.
53:37
And I sat in the back wall and started checking my texts.
53:42
I'm like, you don't wanna listen to me, I'm not gonna watch you.
53:43
But I'm like, peeking.
53:45
And so I'd give her this, this example of like canter around and then halt and
53:49
drop the reins and have 'em stand there.
53:50
Like that's your exercise.
53:52
And she kind of got the idea and was trying to sort of work on it her way, but
53:57
then it started getting better, right?
53:59
And she's like, huh.
54:01
And she slowly started to ride closer to where I was and she's
54:04
like, it's starting to get better.
54:06
I was like, oh, okay.
54:07
So I put my phone away and went up and engaged and talked to her
54:10
and she still wasn't like fully committed, but I said, and she had
54:15
these two big mastiffs for dogs, two great big dogs, very well trained.
54:21
And I said, we're talking about the canter pirouette and sitting and all this.
54:24
And she couldn't figure out how what I was doing was related to
54:27
sitting in the canter pirouette.
54:29
And I said, how do you teach your dogs to sit?
54:33
And she's like, I tell them, sit.
54:34
And I go, okay.
54:35
And if they don't, she said, well, I lift up on the collar and push
54:39
down on the rear end and I go.
54:41
Then, and then she went, I let go and I went, oh.
54:49
And she said, oh, I get it.
54:52
So then she went back and played with canner to halt and drop the reins.
54:57
And then I said, okay, now collect the canner and drop the
54:59
reins, but stay at the cantor.
55:01
And we did that a little bit and pretty soon she did a canter
55:03
pirouette with a loop in the res.
55:05
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
55:06
Karen Rohlf: So it's, it's tracing.
55:08
It's like tracing.
55:09
But with her, I probably had to bridge it a little bit more,
55:12
but I thought I made it clear.
55:14
But just had to think of it differently and, and say, I need the communication.
55:19
I need the trust, I need to educate the horse on the elements, not just keep
55:24
trying to make it happen when it's not, or cont or just use controlling aids.
55:31
'cause you can't really control a horse.
55:34
If that's,
55:34
Rupert Isaacson: well, especially not in a pirouette.
55:35
No.
55:36
Because in a, in a pirouette, as you know Yeah.
55:38
There's a point at which the horse has to carry themselves in it
55:42
and we have to be out of the way.
55:44
And if we in the way, it'll destroy it.
55:47
Pf is the same.
55:48
Is the same.
55:49
Yeah.
55:49
Any of these things that have that really fine balance, if we stop, we have
55:53
to set it up and get out of the way.
55:56
Right.
55:56
If we try to,
55:56
Karen Rohlf: and if you drop the reins, it's not gonna cure everything, but
55:59
you'll find out what piece you need.
56:01
Like, oh, when you drop the res.
56:02
Right.
56:03
Do they need more engagement?
56:04
Do they need to be around or do they need to be a quicker t like
56:07
you'll find out stuff but you, you, it's got to come to a place where
56:12
the horse is carrying themselves.
56:13
'cause that's the point
56:16
Rupert Isaacson: I think.
56:16
Yes.
56:18
In your first story.
56:20
What I found of interest there particularly was.
56:24
You know, the, the school I came into, because I came into dressage through
56:28
the back door, I never intended to have anything to do with dressage.
56:32
It was only that when my son became verbal in the saddle in front of me.
56:38
And I noticed that it was when the horse was in a soft collected
56:41
rhythm that this was happening.
56:42
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
56:42
Rupert Isaacson: That I realized I needed to learn more about soft collected rhythm.
56:45
So that's when I went on this journey that ended up with dressage and I tried going
56:52
through this sport dressage riding lesson route, and I just saw everyone stuck its
56:58
shoulder in for 20 years for the very same reasons that you described and thought,
57:01
well, I, I haven't got time for that, so I need to find something more efficient.
57:06
And that's how I found my way down to the French Portuguese system down in
57:10
Portugal, in Lisbon with the Valencia, and realizing that the entire thing.
57:17
Could, was so much more efficient if you did it on the ground first.
57:21
If you did it.
57:22
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
57:22
Rupert Isaacson: In hand if you understood from the ground what was going on.
57:27
Can see it, get the feel the horse understands.
57:31
You're both together on the ground, then including the counter work.
57:35
And then you are in the saddle.
57:37
You are the sky monkey as I call it.
57:39
But you've got a ground monkey who usually knows more than you,
57:42
who's the one who's doing what's called the assisted in hand work.
57:45
And then you transfer the ground aids to the rider.
57:48
Slowly, slowly.
57:49
That says under, oh, I see.
57:50
When the rider does this with his leg, it means the same as when you
57:53
do that with a stick on the ground.
57:54
Okay, yeah.
57:55
I accept that.
57:56
I understand that there's no stress.
57:58
And then little by little the ground monkey kind of comes away and
58:01
leaves sky monkey and pony together.
58:04
And if, but if sky monkey and pony run into some difficulty, ground
58:07
monkey can come in again and help.
58:09
And this is entirely rational.
58:11
And I realize, oh.
58:13
When I was on the right, what we think of as dressage is
58:15
only actually one small niche.
58:17
There's this thing DOMA Vara, which is what people now call working quotation.
58:22
That is dressage.
58:23
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
58:24
Rupert Isaacson: There is this thing called eo, which is the bull
58:27
fight style, fast combat style, but it's dressage all the way.
58:32
And then there's this Dorma Classica thing where you formalize
58:35
it in a rectangular arena and do it in a sort of balletic style.
58:39
And not every horse likes some horses, like only one of those most, they almost
58:44
all like the working Equitation, Dorma, va Carra one, and some horses like all three.
58:49
And some horses like, you know, there's something there for everyone.
58:53
And this was very clear.
58:56
And so then we just went and started producing our therapy horses this way.
59:01
And what we saw was that within, you know, 24 months, 36 months, you
59:07
could get backyard quarter horses.
59:10
To like intermediate, you know?
59:11
Mm-hmm.
59:12
Because you're doing it on the ground with them, and then when you take it to the
59:16
saddle, they, they understand, and then I realize, oh, that's what self carriage is.
59:19
The horse is able to carry itself, either ride or I'm not carrying the horse.
59:23
This horse, no matter what mistake I make, and I make so many mistakes,
59:26
I'm such an imperfect rider.
59:29
My horse doesn't give a shit because they understand.
59:31
They, they're, they probably prefer it.
59:33
If I was a better rider, they're probably rolling their eyes a bit and going, oh,
59:36
Rupert's sitting off to the right again, and Rupert's collapsed his shoulder again.
59:39
Oh, well, you know, but I still know what it is Rupert wants, so I'm gonna do it.
59:44
You know, he is carrying himself, and of course I need that when
59:47
I'm up there with your child.
59:49
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
59:49
Rupert Isaacson: Because I cannot give my attention too
59:53
much to the horse at that point.
59:54
My attention is all with the kid.
59:56
So I need to say to the horse, can you please do this lovely rhythm thing
1:00:00
and can you sustain it, please, for as long as me and this child need you to.
1:00:05
And the horse, if they understand, can say, yeah, and then I can
1:00:08
give my attention to your child.
1:00:09
So the difficulty of, you know, 'cause dressage arose outta
1:00:13
doing jobs on horseback, right.
1:00:14
It arose out of livestock work, it arose out of war, it arose out of
1:00:18
hunting, and then it got formalized into the, managed, into the, and even
1:00:22
the managed the, what we call the arena, but the es comes from the word
1:00:26
ma, the hand mano and ma in, in French.
1:00:31
It's where you work the horse to the hand, which is the work on the
1:00:34
ground, and then taken to having the horse Don Ma, which we call on the bit
1:00:40
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
1:00:40
To the hand.
1:00:41
Not from the hand.
1:00:43
Rupert Isaacson: Well in the hand don't.
1:00:44
Karen Rohlf: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:00:45
But it, you know, there's a difference between just Oh good.
1:00:47
I get to use my hands now.
1:00:48
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.
1:00:49
Exactly.
1:00:51
And so, but this of course is so missing because in the, particularly the East
1:00:55
Coast American tradition, you know, it came out of the British colonial.
1:01:00
Tradition of riding, which abandoned all dressage in the 18th century and went to
1:01:05
forward seat jumping fox hunting, da da.
1:01:08
So we've had to rediscover it.
1:01:09
It was the same in the UK and we've discovered it through the German
1:01:14
sports system, which weirdly abandoned all the in-hand work somewhere
1:01:20
in the early to mid 20th century.
1:01:22
But when you read Zieger and Steinberg, they're all about the in hand work.
1:01:27
All those guys were doing it.
1:01:28
And then somewhere in the military schools around the early 19
1:01:33
hundreds, you you, you pick up those.
1:01:35
Was it HDV 12, that book from the German cavalry, suddenly
1:01:40
it's not really in there anymore.
1:01:42
And the Germans will still train the piaf and to some degree the
1:01:45
passage from the, the ground.
1:01:48
But the rest of it they don't.
1:01:50
And what it means is then I lived in Germany for eight years
1:01:54
and trained and worked there.
1:01:55
And I realized, oh my gosh, this country that is supposed to be producing all the
1:01:59
top dressage writers, mostly producers, really shit dressage writers actually.
1:02:03
And there's just a very, very, very few at the top mm-hmm.
1:02:06
That get money pumped into them that become the representatives.
1:02:11
But the vast majority of the people are riding no better than anyone that you'd
1:02:17
see in a, in a regional show in Missouri, and are not being taught any better.
1:02:25
The trainers are no better.
1:02:26
But somewhere in there it got lost.
1:02:27
So it's interesting that you found your way also through the natural horsemanship.
1:02:31
So, which of course is largely ground-based.
1:02:34
Mm-hmm.
1:02:35
And when you are training, do you get at a certain point, most of your
1:02:41
clients to understand then, ah, yes.
1:02:44
If I start from the ground, it's probably going to be clearer, or do
1:02:49
you still have the vast majority of people with a real emphasis on trying
1:02:54
to do the whole thing from the saddle?
1:02:57
Karen Rohlf: It's a, it's a mix.
1:02:58
I mean, the, definitely the ground groundwork is, is a part of it.
1:03:02
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:03:02
Karen Rohlf: But I think, I think I have,
1:03:06
like, I really feel like if you, like, I'm not the one to go to, if you want to
1:03:11
like, learn all the classical stuff, you know, from the ground all the way up.
1:03:18
I really focus.
1:03:20
I mean, I can, I can't do it, but what I, what I really feel like I help people
1:03:25
with is whatever discipline you're doing
1:03:28
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm.
1:03:30
Karen Rohlf: To help create this.
1:03:32
This more harmonious relationship where like, whether you're gonna do jumping
1:03:38
or reigning or anything like the, I can get, I can help people like see that big
1:03:44
picture, get the happiness, the harm is the communication a freely moving horse
1:03:48
with a person who can not get, like, so many people get into dressage and then
1:03:54
they get frozen by, am I doing this right?
1:03:57
Mm-hmm.
1:03:57
Am I doing this wrong?
1:03:58
And correctness, before getting into that, just saying, you're,
1:04:03
you're asking the horse something.
1:04:05
What are you asking?
1:04:06
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:04:06
Karen Rohlf: How is the horse answering?
1:04:08
Are you giving the horse feedback?
1:04:09
Does he know when he's successful?
1:04:12
And are you getting to this neutral place where, where, you
1:04:16
know, there is this harmony?
1:04:17
And then even with the biomechanics, it's like if your horse is not
1:04:22
moving well, like, just on a really basic level, like what you would
1:04:25
do maybe in a warmup or something.
1:04:27
He's, it's, it's, you've gotta change the energy.
1:04:29
You gotta change the balance.
1:04:31
Or you've gotta like, say something about the level of relaxation.
1:04:34
Like, can you talk to your horse about that?
1:04:36
Can you turn those dials and can you play around?
1:04:39
And so like when I, when I help people, you know, if they're like,
1:04:44
oh, my horse is, you know, say they're on the, on line, on the ground and
1:04:48
the horse is, oh, he keeps falling in on his shoulder, on the side.
1:04:50
I was like, okay, change something.
1:04:52
Like, what happens if you lower the energy or raise the energy?
1:04:55
What happens if, can you, are you able to talk to your horse to
1:04:58
move the shoulder here and there?
1:05:00
Like if you want, if your horse is getting wound up, can you tell 'em to chill out?
1:05:04
And, and then to teach people to play with that and observe.
1:05:10
And at, by the end of the workshop or clinic, they are telling me when
1:05:15
their horse is in the best mode.
1:05:17
Like it's less about, here is the perfect shape for this, and now
1:05:21
I'm gonna show you how to get it.
1:05:22
I'm like, feel your horse.
1:05:23
What adjectives do you want to use?
1:05:25
Like, did it change?
1:05:26
Did you understand what you asked them?
1:05:28
And that's what I really wanna help people with.
1:05:32
And then from that, you can take that and go do whatever discipline
1:05:37
you want, follow this path.
1:05:39
Do Domo, Vaquero, do this, get classes, do competitive dressage, like, you know, do
1:05:43
it in arena and do the pre Saint George.
1:05:45
Go ahead.
1:05:46
Because all you can shape that into what you want at that sport level.
1:05:52
So those conversations, all those things that we're thinking of, yeah, they start
1:05:56
on the ground and can you influence them on the ground and then, you know, when it
1:06:00
gets into the more gymnastic movements, yeah, we can do those on the ground too.
1:06:05
But I think where, where my focus really is, is no matter what you're
1:06:09
doing with your horse, what discipline.
1:06:13
You know, when a rider comes to me, I'll like, what's working?
1:06:15
What's not?
1:06:16
Show me what you're doing.
1:06:18
And show me, you know, I'll, I'll look at where I see the disharmony is,
1:06:22
or the confusion or the imbalances.
1:06:24
You tell me what you're feeling and let's get to a place where we can
1:06:28
resolve those so that then you can go on.
1:06:32
And sometimes they come and I, they check all the boxes.
1:06:35
I'm like, yeah, let's work on your counter Changes a hand at the half pass.
1:06:38
Now we're in the gymnastic sport mode and we can get into the details of that.
1:06:42
But no matter what discipline you're doing, no matter what groundwork or
1:06:48
classical this or that you're doing, you gotta think what's the happiness
1:06:52
level, what's the harmony level?
1:06:53
What's the quality of the communication?
1:06:55
Okay, now we can, we can get precise and say, okay, a shoulder in is a
1:07:00
shoulder in, and it's exactly this.
1:07:02
But if all the boxes below that are ticked, it becomes.
1:07:07
Easier so that, that's really where my focus
1:07:09
Rupert Isaacson: is.
1:07:09
Right.
1:07:10
As you say, a lot of people are frozen and stuck and scared, and when, as you
1:07:15
know this, you know when your brain is flooded with cortisol, when you are
1:07:19
in front of a triage instructor, your brain tends to be flooded with cortisol.
1:07:23
You can't think, and you can't really take in information and learn, and your feel
1:07:27
goes away, and you may not have ever been able to cultivate, feel, because you might
1:07:33
have been so controlled and micromanaged.
1:07:35
Mm-hmm.
1:07:35
Exactly.
1:07:35
You know, one sees so many of those dressage rides with a trainer
1:07:38
micromanaging every minor angle of the shoulder and thinking, gosh, well, even
1:07:45
if that is working without that voice in the ear, the whole thing would fall apart
1:07:49
because there's a lack of understanding, as you say, a lack of communication.
1:07:54
Lack happens.
1:07:55
Yeah.
1:07:55
So when, when somebody comes in and they're not aware of these things like.
1:08:02
One says free movement or quality movement,
1:08:07
it's by no means a given that any of us would necessarily
1:08:12
know whether our horse mm-hmm.
1:08:14
Is in that or not.
1:08:17
So what do you do when somebody comes in and they, they're actually really unaware
1:08:22
that they're perhaps in good faith.
1:08:24
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
1:08:24
Rupert Isaacson: But they're really unaware.
1:08:25
So, so there is disharmony, but they don't know there's disharmony.
1:08:28
Karen Rohlf: Yeah,
1:08:28
Rupert Isaacson: there's unhappiness, but they don't know there's unhappiness
1:08:31
and there's poor quality movement, but they don't know that either.
1:08:35
And then of course, if you bring that to their attention, they're
1:08:38
gonna feel somewhat crushed.
1:08:40
How does one help them in a relatively short space of time to get there?
1:08:47
See that, and also not be destroyed by thinking, oh shit, I've been doing it all
1:08:51
wrong, and now I need to go kill myself.
1:08:52
You know?
1:08:53
As you know, if you followed any of my work, I'm an autism dad and we have
1:08:58
a whole career before this podcast in helping people with neurodivergence,
1:09:05
either who are professionals in the field.
1:09:08
Are you a therapist?
1:09:09
Are you a caregiver?
1:09:11
Are you a parent?
1:09:12
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?
1:09:16
When my son, Rowan, was diagnosed with autism in 2004,
1:09:21
I really didn't know what to do.
1:09:22
So I reached out for mentorship, and I found it through an amazing adult
1:09:28
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.
1:09:31
Temple Grandin.
1:09:32
And she told me what to do.
1:09:33
And it's been working so amazingly for the last 20 years.
1:09:38
That not only is my son basically independent, but we've helped
1:09:43
countless, countless thousands of others reach the same goal.
1:09:47
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1:09:52
If you would like to learn this cutting edge, neuroscience backed
1:09:56
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1:09:59
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1:10:02
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1:10:06
The important thing is to begin.
1:10:09
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.
1:10:12
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1:10:17
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.
1:10:22
com Sign up as a gold member.
1:10:25
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1:10:28
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1:10:30
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1:10:33
We really want to know.
1:10:33
We really want to help people like me, people like you, out there
1:10:38
live their best life, to live free, ride free, see what happens.
1:10:42
Karen Rohlf: Well, that, that part might be outta my scope,
1:10:44
but here, here's what I do.
1:10:45
This is actually the, this is the fun part for me.
1:10:48
Okay.
1:10:48
I'll try to think of an example.
1:10:50
I'll, I'll, I'll use there's a student, a very dedicated
1:10:54
student with a lovely horse.
1:10:57
She'd gone through several horses, you know, but this
1:11:00
is lovely horse number four.
1:11:02
But she was, you know, stuck, you know, stuck at the like
1:11:05
starting second level thing.
1:11:06
You the shoulder in will be the death of many people.
1:11:09
Yep.
1:11:09
Everyone
1:11:09
Rupert Isaacson: gets stuff at children.
1:11:09
Yeah.
1:11:10
Karen Rohlf: And she was, you know, very correct position.
1:11:13
I should use air quotes there.
1:11:14
Like, it looked good.
1:11:16
Lovely horse.
1:11:17
She was trying so hard to do all the right things, but like
1:11:19
Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm Mm.
1:11:20
Karen Rohlf: She couldn't get like a working trot and she was frozen.
1:11:23
So, so here's what I do.
1:11:25
This is my, I go, what adjectives would you like to use for your horse?
1:11:32
You know, I, I, first I say, what adjectives do you
1:11:35
use to describe your horse?
1:11:37
You know, heavy, lean, all the things.
1:11:39
And I say, what adjectives would you like to use?
1:11:41
And I get them to get those adjectives and I like them, feel
1:11:44
springier or softer or flowier.
1:11:46
I'm like, okay, great, let's put those in the front of the mind.
1:11:49
And then I go, okay, well the best trot is gonna be some degree of energy, either
1:11:56
higher or lower than what you're doing.
1:11:57
There's gonna be some balance shift different than what you are doing.
1:12:01
I don't know what needs to change.
1:12:03
Maybe the haunches to the left, maybe the NCH is the right, I don't
1:12:05
know, maybe shoulders, maybe the neck lower, maybe the, I don't know.
1:12:08
So we're gonna muck around with that and we're gonna make sure at any time that
1:12:12
you can just exhale and stop and your horse can stand still in a loose reign.
1:12:16
So we begin, and I might pick one of those.
1:12:20
But let's say we'll pick, we'll pick balance.
1:12:23
So sometimes playing with the energy already.
1:12:26
You know, you'd be like, okay, at high try higher energy, try lower energy.
1:12:30
Where does your horse meet?
1:12:32
Mm-hmm.
1:12:32
More of those adjectives.
1:12:33
Right?
1:12:34
So same thing with shoulders.
1:12:35
So I might say, okay, move the shoulders one way or the other for
1:12:38
just a stride or two, and then just go back to neutral and we'll muck around.
1:12:43
And I said, tell me.
1:12:45
So I have them tell me when do you feel a moment where your horse is slightly more?
1:12:53
Any one of those adjectives that they just told me?
1:12:55
Mm-hmm.
1:12:55
I still haven't told them what they should be doing.
1:12:58
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:12:59
Karen Rohlf: And so then what'll happen is I'll start to see it
1:13:01
change and I see this, the student, and I'll go, how about there?
1:13:06
And then they'll hesitate and now the horse won't be in that moment
1:13:09
and they go, I think that was better.
1:13:11
And I go, oh.
1:13:13
So I'm like, you gotta tell me in the moment.
1:13:15
I said, I want you to tell me yes if you feel like your
1:13:18
horse is even infinitesimally.
1:13:22
However you say that word.
1:13:23
Closer to one of the adjectives you were looking for.
1:13:26
Just muck around.
1:13:27
Change something, go to neutral, change it again.
1:13:29
Go to neutral.
1:13:31
And I have to, and I have to keep it lighthearted and give them permission
1:13:34
to dare to say yes when they feel it.
1:13:39
And so that's a big thing.
1:13:41
'cause there's this delay.
1:13:42
'cause they go, oh my God, I felt it.
1:13:43
Is that it?
1:13:44
Was I wrong?
1:13:45
Should I say it?
1:13:46
I might be wrong.
1:13:47
And now the moment's passed.
1:13:48
So I'm like, listen, your horse is under you going, how am I doing mom?
1:13:54
And I said, you need to tell.
1:13:55
So we get them going around, muck around.
1:13:57
I'll be like, encourage them.
1:13:58
How about now?
1:13:59
Like say yes.
1:14:00
Say it louder.
1:14:01
Yes.
1:14:02
Oh, okay.
1:14:04
Now we go and I say muck around.
1:14:07
Go to neutral.
1:14:07
It feels better.
1:14:08
Say yes and at the same time, reach forward and rub your horse on the neck.
1:14:12
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:14:14
Karen Rohlf: You would not believe how breakthrough that can be the confidence
1:14:20
giving the, the rider permission to experiment because precision arrives
1:14:24
outta the possibility of the play crates.
1:14:25
Like move stuff around.
1:14:26
Mm-hmm.
1:14:27
Let's just, let's see what makes it worse.
1:14:29
You know, move stuff around the permission to dare to say yes out loud.
1:14:35
So you have to breathe while reaching forward, extending your fingers
1:14:40
and connecting with your horse.
1:14:41
There's a lot of cool things that happen with that.
1:14:45
And now the horse is going, oh thank God I did it.
1:14:48
Now the horse is getting this like, whew, I did it.
1:14:50
Oops, I lost it.
1:14:51
Muck around.
1:14:51
Muck around.
1:14:52
Yes.
1:14:52
Oh, I got it.
1:14:54
Oh, I lost it.
1:14:55
So then we just repeat this and it starts happening more and more frequently.
1:14:59
The rider now knows what they need to do 'cause they get to repeat
1:15:02
it a million times, not hold it together for one whole session.
1:15:05
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:15:06
Mm-hmm.
1:15:06
Karen Rohlf: And pretty soon now, now the ride, I was like, now you tell me when he
1:15:10
is in the better, the better spot today.
1:15:13
And now the students riding around going here?
1:15:16
Yes.
1:15:16
Here.
1:15:17
Oops, hang on a second.
1:15:19
And I tell them, I have two rules.
1:15:20
You gotta be either searching or enjoying nothing in between.
1:15:25
So, so either look for it or just sit there enjoying it.
1:15:28
And pretty soon the percentage of time searching gets smaller and the
1:15:31
percentage time enjoying gets longer.
1:15:33
And the, I never told them what to do.
1:15:37
They picked the adjectives, they mucked around.
1:15:39
I just gave them some things to muck around with.
1:15:42
They told me when is yes.
1:15:44
And Rupert like 99% of the time, I completely agree that what
1:15:51
they did improved things and that was better than it was before.
1:15:55
And I have not told them anything.
1:15:57
There's no right or wrong.
1:15:58
That is so powerful.
1:16:02
And there's so many students who are so.
1:16:06
Again, like frozen in this like, 'cause I read this technique and they said to do
1:16:09
it this way and is this the right thing?
1:16:11
I was like, get, get the connection between you and your horse going freely.
1:16:16
I was like, if you take that and go play in the bushes all by yourself just doing
1:16:21
that, you will be 80% more improved.
1:16:26
And I said, then go get an instructor and they'll tell you some more things
1:16:30
like, hey, I think a little quicker tempo or a little higher neck or
1:16:33
more, you know, more angle here.
1:16:35
I was like, that will be like easy to add on because you
1:16:39
already have this relationship and communication with the horse.
1:16:43
I was like, but I, I've never had anybody do that and come back and
1:16:46
now their horses choppier and more crooked and more, you know, heavy or
1:16:53
it's always better and it's empowered.
1:16:57
So that's what, you know, I tell people I'm empowered learning.
1:16:59
That sounds like you know, a nice thing to put on a website,
1:17:01
but that's what I mean by it.
1:17:03
It's like most clinics, I'm not telling.
1:17:06
At the end of the clinic I go, do you guys realize I never told you what to
1:17:10
what your working trot needed to be?
1:17:13
You guys ended up telling me what your horse needed.
1:17:17
And it's, it's for the basics, but like so many people are struggling
1:17:21
with the basics that it opens the door to then apply more refinement.
1:17:28
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed.
1:17:28
And in fact, I think one could say that no matter how educated you become,
1:17:32
you're always struggling with the basics.
1:17:34
There is no time that I'm not.
1:17:35
Oh my
1:17:36
Karen Rohlf: gosh.
1:17:36
Yeah.
1:17:37
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
1:17:37
One of the things that I love about what you just said, there were two things too.
1:17:42
I mean, I like, I liked it all, but two things again, stand out.
1:17:46
One was you encourage 'em to use their voice.
1:17:48
Yeah.
1:17:49
One of the inheritances of the military is have your voice taken away.
1:17:56
So you are either the officer in charge.
1:17:59
Or you're taking orders.
1:18:01
So, you know, when I was at military school, which I was the only acceptable
1:18:07
thing to say was, yes, Sarge, or yes sir, if it was a commissioned
1:18:12
officer, no more and no less, no.
1:18:16
If one takes that to horsemanship, so through pony club, which was taught by
1:18:23
ex-military, by it all comes to you were occasionally allowed, you know, going in
1:18:29
at a big fence when I was a kid to give your horse encouragement and also let
1:18:34
out some of your anxiety about going, oh, you know, as they go over the fence.
1:18:37
But that was about it.
1:18:39
But you were allowed to use your voice sometimes negatively.
1:18:43
Then I didn't realize how out of the use of the voice I was.
1:18:49
And then of course I'm faced with an autistic child who does not speak
1:18:53
and the greatest wish I'm having.
1:18:57
For voice.
1:18:59
And then through the horse side of the education I have to go through with this.
1:19:06
I run into Master Luis Valencia in Portugal who shows me that you can train
1:19:12
a horse right up through the air on the ground between two vocal tones basically.
1:19:17
Ah.
1:19:18
Which is, I like that a lot.
1:19:19
Please can I have more of that?
1:19:20
And ah, which is, I don't quite want so much of that, please.
1:19:24
And he said to me, Rupert, you've got to have about minimum 85%,
1:19:29
ah, or the horse will give up.
1:19:31
So you need this constant, and then he said, I said, well, what?
1:19:35
Okay, that makes perfect sense.
1:19:37
But what we going to do when we get back into a situation where we're not
1:19:41
allowed to use our voice anymore, IE an arena a, a a show ring or whatever.
1:19:45
I said, because I know people are gonna ask me that.
1:19:49
And he said, oh, well then there's all sorts of ways you can cheat Ruth.
1:19:51
You can just, and so he showed me all sorts of ways to bring it down.
1:19:57
So for example, if I'm doing, going between say, PF and massage and back again
1:20:01
if I just go make the sound of per, but
1:20:07
it, it, it's inaudible, but the horse of course hears it.
1:20:11
He'll spring into massage, but it starts with HA sar and it, and if
1:20:16
it's in PF and I put the vocal cue on it, you know, once we've, the
1:20:20
horse is understanding it and it's.
1:20:22
The one I was taught is rhythm, rhythm, rhythm.
1:20:25
Because I don't want to pee one 'cause I want to di I
1:20:27
want to distinguish up, right.
1:20:30
So that someone is standing, you know, some distance away, can't hear
1:20:33
what's going on, but horse sure can.
1:20:36
So I, you know, as, as you know, when you're going from passage down into p
1:20:40
that's notoriously difficult, you know?
1:20:42
Mm-hmm.
1:20:43
Going from the pi into the passage is somewhat more straightforward.
1:20:47
So in that deceleration, you know, if I'm beginning to say whisper rhythm, you know,
1:20:53
he knows exactly what I'm talking about.
1:20:55
Yeah.
1:20:55
And, but it's so interesting to have the voice repowered and your, your
1:21:01
point there of having a, a rider say yes and making it absolutely crystal
1:21:06
clear to their own nervous system, to the horse's nervous system and brain
1:21:11
and their endocrine, their emotional system, that this is good and that.
1:21:17
Blast of dopamine and that, you know, you're talking about
1:21:20
being in, in the seeking mode.
1:21:23
You're either searching
1:21:25
Karen Rohlf: mm-hmm.
1:21:25
Rupert Isaacson: Or you are enjoying.
1:21:26
I love that because the, in neuroscience, the, the seeking
1:21:31
brain is never the stressed brain.
1:21:35
Karen Rohlf: Right.
1:21:35
Rupert Isaacson: When we're hunting, when we're looking,
1:21:38
we're somewhere towards play.
1:21:40
Mm-hmm.
1:21:41
Always.
1:21:41
And horses are the same when there's, Ooh, what's that?
1:21:44
It's a problem to solve, you know?
1:21:46
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
1:21:46
Rupert Isaacson: When that's taken away, we're almost
1:21:50
always in some form of stress.
1:21:51
Right.
1:21:52
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
1:21:52
Rupert Isaacson: And I don't hear that being understood much
1:21:57
Karen Rohlf: mm-hmm.
1:21:58
Rupert Isaacson: In massage world.
1:21:59
So I love that you did that.
1:22:00
And then the physical connection.
1:22:01
Now I have this thing called spider fingers.
1:22:04
When I see people are tense, I, there's two things.
1:22:06
I, I make them sing silly songs.
1:22:07
I, I will go first.
1:22:09
Usually like the naughty limerick that we started this with, which I didn't
1:22:12
record, but if people want to email me, I will send them the Limerick.
1:22:16
But I, I make 'em come up with all sorts of silly songs about
1:22:19
being on the toilet and things.
1:22:20
'cause it's just, if you're laughing and feeling stupid,
1:22:22
it's a bit hard to be tense.
1:22:24
Right?
1:22:24
Karen Rohlf: Yep.
1:22:25
Rupert Isaacson: Anything I can think of.
1:22:26
But then what I'll also do is say, if you can do spider fingers on your
1:22:32
horse's wither and imagine that you were just massaging him a little bit as
1:22:36
you go along, you can still hold your reins with your thumb on top mm-hmm.
1:22:40
And caress your horse and make him feel, but you can also teach 'em to yield to
1:22:45
the outside reign that way actually.
1:22:46
Oh, look.
1:22:47
You know, and Yeah.
1:22:49
But make it pleasurable.
1:22:51
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
1:22:52
Rupert Isaacson: This concept of joy and pleasure, that it should feel good to
1:22:55
your horse, that it should feel happy.
1:22:56
It is missing.
1:22:58
Karen Rohlf: I mean, why else are you doing this at these days?
1:23:01
Rupert Isaacson: Say that again?
1:23:02
Karen Rohlf: I said, why else are we doing this?
1:23:04
I mean, this is all human folly, and indeed, we're supposed,
1:23:08
supposed to be doing it for fun.
1:23:09
We don't, we're not fighting wars anymore.
1:23:12
I mean, this is, you know, I tell myself all the time, I'm like, you
1:23:16
know, what's it worth to get my horse to fancy PR on my property
1:23:20
around when nobody's looking like it?
1:23:22
It come on like this.
1:23:25
Rupert Isaacson: Well, it's an exercise.
1:23:25
Enjoy.
1:23:26
Yeah, yeah,
1:23:27
Karen Rohlf: yeah.
1:23:27
Rupert Isaacson: And an exercise.
1:23:28
Joy is inherently worth it for its own sake.
1:23:30
Provided the horse's sharing in that joy.
1:23:33
Absolutely.
1:23:35
And you're doing it together well, now that you've reached this sort of all gust
1:23:38
position of being the car, Royal Highness,
1:23:42
Karen Rohlf: whatever that means,
1:23:44
Rupert Isaacson: carer ness.
1:23:45
Karen Rohlf: Actually, wait, I wanted, I wanted just to say before you get onto
1:23:48
the important subject of me I just read somewhere that the uk they're allowing
1:23:53
voice or they're going to allow voice.
1:23:57
And I'm really curious of like, which words are they?
1:24:00
You like the, when you said like the negatives, you're allowed to say, like,
1:24:03
I'm just so curious of how that's going to be used, but it's really I mean, it
1:24:08
opens up to being able to use at least soothing tones or, you know, absolutely.
1:24:13
That's the latest.
1:24:14
It's the lightest of aids.
1:24:15
Like, why not, how is that cheating?
1:24:18
Rupert Isaacson: Also the most clearly direct of aids?
1:24:20
Because it's the aid that anyone more or less can use.
1:24:23
Because I think if there's anything that defines our
1:24:25
species, it's the larynx, right?
1:24:29
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
1:24:29
Rupert Isaacson: We, we are called homo sapien sapiens,
1:24:32
which means the thinking ape.
1:24:33
But that's not a terribly good description because anything with a brain thinks,
1:24:37
and some things have eight brains, like oc, you know, octopuses or whatever.
1:24:41
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
1:24:41
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:24:41
So.
1:24:42
But what most animals vocalize and some of them vocalize in a
1:24:46
very complex way, but we are the ones who came up with Shakespeare.
1:24:49
We are the ones that do rap, you know, storytelling.
1:24:53
That's us.
1:24:54
Mm-hmm.
1:24:54
Right.
1:24:54
So for us to use our voice comes so naturally to us.
1:24:59
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
1:25:00
Rupert Isaacson: Why would we cut away?
1:25:04
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
1:25:04
Rupert Isaacson: The most powerful thing.
1:25:06
Karen Rohlf: I think.
1:25:07
So this'll be interesting to see how, how it's used, but it, it's a, it's
1:25:11
a moving in a really nice direction.
1:25:14
I think.
1:25:14
So, anyway.
1:25:15
Good.
1:25:16
A little tidbit there.
1:25:17
Rupert Isaacson: I think the whole thing is actually moving in a good direction.
1:25:19
I think it has to because it's,
1:25:21
Karen Rohlf: I was gonna say it has to.
1:25:22
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:25:23
It's, you know, if it doesn't, it'll die.
1:25:25
Now that you've reached this position where you have a platform and people
1:25:29
listen to what you say do you.
1:25:33
Are you being brought back into the tournament world
1:25:38
now to help with these tools?
1:25:40
Because I mean, you are, you're sitting there in Ocala, which
1:25:43
is, it's not quite Wellington.
1:25:44
Wellington is real belly of the beast, but Ocala is not, not belly of the beast.
1:25:48
It's, there's a lot of pretty serious high dollar, high money, high ambition,
1:25:54
you know, sport ridey stuff going on from thoroughbreds to dressage
1:25:59
and jumpers and all Points and Western and all points in between.
1:26:03
Who comes to you?
1:26:07
Karen Rohlf: I, you know, it's students who love their horses
1:26:11
and want to learn what I'm doing.
1:26:12
So I ha I do have students that compete.
1:26:15
A student just did their their horses first Pre St.
1:26:18
George.
1:26:19
It was horse that was given to them because it was about to be put
1:26:22
down for extreme behavior issues.
1:26:24
Mm-hmm.
1:26:24
And, major.
1:26:25
Yeah.
1:26:26
Anyway, they just competed, so I'm not anti-competition, but I,
1:26:31
I am here to spread the word and help whoever would like to come.
1:26:39
I helped a young girl with a, with a Grand Prix jumper, who did an amazing
1:26:43
job with her horse, who was trained originally by a guy who dug a pit on
1:26:48
his property, would get the horses in the pit and then beat them until
1:26:53
they figured out how to jump out.
1:26:56
And now she can do Grand Prix bridals.
1:26:59
So I help the people who are attracted to my stuff and would like help in this.
1:27:04
I don't feel like it, I think at first I felt this crusade of I'm
1:27:11
gonna go change the industry.
1:27:14
I, I feel as far away from the horse industry, I don't feel like
1:27:18
I'm part of the horse industry.
1:27:19
Most of the horse industry I don't like.
1:27:22
And I think there's this inherent.
1:27:24
Problem in industry of money and pressure, and I don't know the solution.
1:27:31
And
1:27:32
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
1:27:32
Karen Rohlf: I don't even know if there should be a horse industry,
1:27:34
should there really be an industry of breeding million dollar horses
1:27:39
and then they have to perform.
1:27:39
I don't know.
1:27:40
I, I just do, I am with horses because I love horses.
1:27:46
I love the horses more than sport, and I love the individual horse in front
1:27:50
of me more than horses in general.
1:27:53
And yeah, I'm, I'm happy for the internet to be able to share this
1:27:58
and I'm happy for patients like this.
1:28:00
I just, in my part of my life, I'm, I'm, it's a weird blend of, I really wanna get
1:28:05
the word out and I will help who I can help and whoever would like this help.
1:28:11
But I really like peacefulness.
1:28:13
I.
1:28:15
Rupert Isaacson: Mm.
1:28:16
Karen Rohlf: And I love my horses.
1:28:17
I have seven and I want to Yeah.
1:28:21
Spend time being my, I think my goal for a long time as a professional
1:28:26
was to not live like a professional.
1:28:28
I'm like, I'm like, how come the amateurs get to have all the fun
1:28:32
hanging out with their horses?
1:28:33
Yeah.
1:28:33
While I'm doing professional horse trainer stuff.
1:28:36
So I live, you know, people say they wanna come see my facility.
1:28:39
I'm like, it's my living room, it's just my property and I have
1:28:42
my horses on it, and that's it.
1:28:44
'cause I like my horses to live free.
1:28:46
And if I have borders, then they can't live free.
1:28:49
And yeah.
1:28:50
So I am, I, I am trying to spread the message and the philosophy.
1:28:56
I have so much online access.
1:28:59
I will go yeah, I will teach anybody who's interested in this stuff.
1:29:04
I'm finding it even a little bit difficult to go.
1:29:08
Like you said, you stopped doing clinics, like I find even expos and stuff like
1:29:12
that, I find it more and more challenging.
1:29:15
I'm like, I still feel like I'm gonna have to go there and show something or
1:29:21
prove something or make some result.
1:29:23
And yeah, I think I, I am really focused on, at and in the one hand
1:29:28
spreading the word far and wide.
1:29:31
And on the other hand, the moments with the horses, I want it to feel
1:29:36
real and intimate and not like a show.
1:29:42
So
1:29:42
Rupert Isaacson: I think you put, that's the word intimate, isn't it?
1:29:46
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
1:29:46
Rupert Isaacson: Because
1:29:47
Karen Rohlf: like you said, like I wanna be able to make the decisions and be real
1:29:50
and not try to like demonstrate something.
1:29:53
So it's, I'm just, it's a funny place and it's more in my head 'cause I'm
1:29:57
sure I can go demonstrate something.
1:29:59
But I'm trying to, I, I get think just on the personal journey, part
1:30:02
of things I've been working really hard to let go of my ego and then
1:30:05
I'm like, well, how do I do that?
1:30:06
And then do marketing and then go put on a show for people.
1:30:10
Like, I just wanna be in the moment and see what happens
1:30:13
and help, help the, the being.
1:30:16
You
1:30:16
Rupert Isaacson: can, you can do it, you can do that, you
1:30:18
can do that if it's in service.
1:30:20
Mm-hmm.
1:30:21
So for example, as obviously I go through that because when, when I stumbled
1:30:27
into this thing with autism, that we really did stumble into something that
1:30:32
worked first, my son became verbal.
1:30:34
Verbal, and then it happened again and it happened again and it happened again.
1:30:37
And then we realized there was a structure to it and we started to
1:30:40
get the neuroscientist to explain it and okay, we could replicate this.
1:30:46
And then I went through this real shit.
1:30:49
If we do that, I.
1:30:51
Then a people will throw 'em mud at you and that's always
1:30:54
uncomfortable, but b you're gonna have to get out there and do it.
1:30:59
And then I thought, yeah, but if I don't, I'm a wanker because there are so many
1:31:02
parents like me standing in a living room or a field lost not knowing what to do.
1:31:08
And if I happen to have stumbled into something that works and I don't put
1:31:14
it out there in the public domain for people to either use or not use
1:31:18
as they wish, then I'm withholding.
1:31:22
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
1:31:22
Rupert Isaacson: And given that, that, that what I'm withholding is a way to
1:31:28
alleviate suffering, I don't actually have the right to withhold it weirdly.
1:31:34
And I think that you are probably a little bit in that position.
1:31:37
So if you found a way that addresses this dressing of the horse thing
1:31:45
that takes the suffering out.
1:31:49
You kind of do have to put it in the public domain.
1:31:53
Karen Rohlf: Well, yeah.
1:31:53
No, and that's where I, you know, I have a lot of resources and, you know, one
1:31:59
of the online courses that we have, I'm so proud of because it's, it's not just
1:32:04
material, but we do weekly calls, so we're, you know, we're in conversation.
1:32:09
I think this is what, you know, there's a, the world is bombarded with online
1:32:13
courses, but it's really the live support, it's the community and the being able to
1:32:17
like, talk about what's happening and, and help people with the thought process.
1:32:22
And, you know, this glo this more holistic view because it's not just a technique,
1:32:27
it's in the context of the whole thing.
1:32:29
So, I mean, I have a huge community.
1:32:31
I've got instructors that help.
1:32:33
I have a lot of resources out there.
1:32:36
And that makes me really happy.
1:32:37
I love being on podcasts.
1:32:39
I'm presenting next week with a group that was, is talking about the
1:32:43
historical, you know, perspectives of cruelty and horse training.
1:32:47
And I was looking at that and I'm presenting like the modern ethical,
1:32:51
I'm like, I just, this is, you know, to bring this awareness.
1:32:55
People have the resources.
1:32:57
I think I'm, I think it's just at this moment I'm trying to
1:33:01
balance that with my own personal peacefulness and that's tricky.
1:33:08
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:33:08
Karen Rohlf: So that's just yeah, that's,
1:33:10
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
1:33:10
Well, it's always easier to keep your ego in check when
1:33:13
you're not in front of anybody.
1:33:15
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
1:33:15
Rupert Isaacson: Which means that you have to go get in front of
1:33:17
people in order to learn how to,
1:33:19
Karen Rohlf: to keep your ego.
1:33:19
Oh, yeah.
1:33:19
It doesn't count unless you're in the, it doesn't count to be a, the, a prize
1:33:24
fighter if you never get in the arena.
1:33:25
No, I get that.
1:33:27
I have, I have, yeah.
1:33:28
I have been in public play, so it's just, yeah, it's just a kind of a reshaping of.
1:33:34
You know how, yeah.
1:33:36
How I'm spending my time, how I'm spending my focus.
1:33:38
And at the same time, you know, we have a new course for the
1:33:43
Happy Athlete Training Scale.
1:33:44
We've got the sweet spot of Healthy Biomechanic.
1:33:46
We got tons of stuff.
1:33:48
And and like I said, I love the, I love the live conversation part of it,
1:33:54
because it's not just the technique, it's the, it's the daily, you know,
1:34:00
when you're out there doing it and then okay, it works and now your
1:34:03
horse is doing something different.
1:34:05
And how we think through that and how we support the people's their mental
1:34:10
state through the process and yeah.
1:34:14
So it's,
1:34:14
Rupert Isaacson: you say we, is it.
1:34:17
Is it you and the team at this point?
1:34:19
Is it you and a main collaborator?
1:34:22
Is it, or is it when you use we, are you referring more to your
1:34:26
community and the exchange of ideas?
1:34:30
Karen Rohlf: Yeah, a little, a little bit of all of that.
1:34:32
I do have instructors, so I have instructor in the Netherlands and then
1:34:36
three in the US and one in Canada.
1:34:40
And they, they do a lot of the coaching calls for the, for the live calls, for the
1:34:45
sweet spot of healthy biomechanics course.
1:34:47
And they do clinics and we get together and you know, so
1:34:50
there's continuing education.
1:34:52
So they're really helping with the boots on the ground.
1:34:55
Boots on the ground, yeah, hearts on the ground.
1:34:58
And, yeah.
1:34:59
And then I'm, I'm working with hopefully developing something with,
1:35:02
there's a wonderful Hungarian sport writer and she's being a pioneer and
1:35:08
introducing Bitless dressage in Hungary.
1:35:11
And so we're doing stuff together.
1:35:13
I've been
1:35:13
Rupert Isaacson: reading about this.
1:35:14
Yes.
1:35:14
Karen Rohlf: Yeah, she's lovely.
1:35:15
So we're she's been through my courses and she's just, yeah.
1:35:19
Wonderful.
1:35:19
So we're hopefully developing something to bring the happy athlete training
1:35:23
scale to more people in a more applicable way instead of just a concept.
1:35:29
Rupert Isaacson: Hmm.
1:35:29
Karen Rohlf: And yeah, so I, I really feel
1:35:34
a desire to spread the concept now that I have the pieces in place
1:35:41
where people can learn to just have these conversations and give people
1:35:45
a different way of looking at things.
1:35:48
And that more holistic view is so important to me.
1:35:52
So that's why.
1:35:54
Super happy to be here.
1:35:58
Rupert Isaacson: I'm gonna ask you to go obviously to tell us a bit more about
1:36:01
your online resources 'cause a lot of people are going to go check 'em out.
1:36:05
But before I do, can you tell me about that horse on the wall behind you?
1:36:10
So for those who are listening, some of you're watching on YouTube and you've
1:36:14
probably been, but like me wondering who's that horse on the wall behind Karen and
1:36:18
why has she got that horse on the wall?
1:36:19
There must be a story there, so let's hear that.
1:36:21
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
1:36:21
Rupert Isaacson: But for those of you who can't, who can't see it, she's
1:36:25
riding, I presume it's you or someone is riding a very lovely SC ball.
1:36:32
Mm-hmm.
1:36:32
What we, the bricks would call a SC ball, but others would call a, a brown
1:36:38
and white pinto, but warm bloody.
1:36:41
Yeah.
1:36:41
Who looks very similar to an ACO bred Dutch warm blood
1:36:47
Oldenberg cross mare that I had.
1:36:49
Karen Rohlf: Mm-hmm.
1:36:49
Rupert Isaacson: Who was jolly interesting.
1:36:51
Tell us about this horse.
1:36:52
Why is she on your wall?
1:36:54
Karen Rohlf: That is Ovation and he is a paint.
1:36:58
It was a, his father was a jumper paint horse, and his mother was a Hol Steiner.
1:37:03
And he was locally bred and yeah, he was bred just around the corner.
1:37:07
And when I bought my property, I didn't have a whole lot of
1:37:10
money left over, but he was just.
1:37:12
Just enough.
1:37:13
And I got him when he was three.
1:37:15
And he is, he's just lovely.
1:37:18
He's a goofball.
1:37:19
He's my magnificent goofball is what I tell him because he's just powerful and
1:37:25
sporty and he's does everything in the Grand Prix and he is a complete goofball.
1:37:30
Most people, if you see him, if you see me on Facebook getting licked
1:37:34
in the face by a horse, it's him.
1:37:36
He regularly, after I tack him up, he'll like grab his, his favorite traffic
1:37:39
cone and try to bring that with him When I go ride, he'll pick up anything
1:37:44
from the ground when I ride him.
1:37:45
But he is turning 23 this year and I feel like I'm just figuring him out.
1:37:53
He's collection did not come easily for him.
1:37:56
He is a big, powerful mover.
1:37:58
A lot of pushing power.
1:38:00
Collection, not so much.
1:38:01
So I had to be really clever in teaching him.
1:38:04
And I mean, I feel like just this year.
1:38:08
We were like, I, I told him, I'm like, ovation.
1:38:10
'cause he's like a, he's a bit of a brute, you know, he's just like raw.
1:38:14
He's a very physical kind of horse.
1:38:16
And I was like, dude, you're 23.
1:38:19
I'm now just past 60.
1:38:21
I was like, we, we need to enter the zen master stage of our relationship together.
1:38:27
So I had to explain to him what, like, what a zen, you
1:38:30
know, a dressage school master.
1:38:32
I was like, dude, you're the most educated horse on the property right now.
1:38:34
Like, you're the zen master.
1:38:36
And so, yeah, so that's now it's like, I feel like we're like in that like,
1:38:40
you know, the chef's kiss version of dressage where he's just light
1:38:44
and he's really carrying himself and powerful and, but his favorite thing
1:38:48
to do, his reward is extended trot.
1:38:50
He's like, gimme me the big stuff.
1:38:52
So yeah, he's, that's why he's on my wall and he's I'm writing him in a rope.
1:38:57
He's in a rope halter right here, so he's like bitless and
1:39:00
Rupert Isaacson: ah, I guess he's fantastic.
1:39:02
I can't see from the angle 'cause he's beautifully, he's beautifully round.
1:39:06
When you say you had to get clever to teach him that he
1:39:10
could collect, what did you do?
1:39:13
Karen Rohlf: Well, like things like, like when, you know, pee off.
1:39:17
So he has a big swingy hind leg.
1:39:20
Like, so, you know, as far as his action, he can really swing
1:39:23
under with his hind leg, but not necessarily articulate his joints.
1:39:28
So, you know, in doing some groundwork and doing like school halt, when I first told
1:39:33
him school halt, he'd just like lean back.
1:39:36
But like the hawks wouldn't bend.
1:39:38
Like, what are you doing?
1:39:41
Like, you have to bend your joints.
1:39:43
So he'd, he'd be very engaged as far as like his feet were under his body.
1:39:49
I'm almost say engaged, but his hin feet were well under
1:39:51
his body, but he wasn't caring.
1:39:53
He just like push, push from those.
1:39:56
So I had this puzzle, I'm like, ask him to school halt.
1:39:59
And he's just sort of leaning back over his legs.
1:40:01
I'm like, you're gonna, you're gonna sit down.
1:40:04
So not in a good way.
1:40:06
So I'd have to like start the school halt and then I teach him to pick up his.
1:40:11
Back foot.
1:40:12
I was like, you know, those joints bend and so we just do a little bit like rock
1:40:16
your weight back and like, you know, those joints bend and teach 'em to pick it up.
1:40:19
And at some point he connected, he went, oh, I can like bend
1:40:24
them when my weight's on them.
1:40:25
I like, yes.
1:40:27
Same thing, he's got a big powerful hind end and not,
1:40:31
not that free in the shoulder.
1:40:33
So like, we first would start, you know, trying to like lift the front
1:40:37
legs and he, like, I noticed when I picked out his feet, if I picked up his
1:40:42
foot, he'd actually drop that shoulder.
1:40:46
I'm like, no, stay level or, you know, so in doing like working on
1:40:53
like Spanish walk kind of stuff, I was like, okay, I need to teach you to like
1:40:57
lift, you know, forget the extension, just lift up through the shoulder.
1:41:01
And so we just played until I could, he could like, oh my, I can do this.
1:41:06
And then when he was there, then extend, and now he already knew how to.
1:41:10
And this hawk.
1:41:11
So, but I had to do a lot of fiddling like that on the ground.
1:41:14
Literally going, your body can move like this.
1:41:17
Did you know that?
1:41:19
And then, and then taking that into the riding and, you know, you figured this out
1:41:25
because you went and studied with masters.
1:41:27
Who knew this?
1:41:28
I kind of had to figure out myself 'cause I didn't come from that
1:41:31
kind of dressage background.
1:41:33
But whenever I, he had injured himself and it was a front leg injury.
1:41:40
And so when we got back to the stage where, you know, they're allowed to move
1:41:43
more, and I thought, well, okay, it's a front leg injury, so this is good news.
1:41:48
So that means they, I can collect them.
1:41:50
And I thought it'd be smart to keep 'em collected, not just bomb around.
1:41:55
And so we were just allowed to walk.
1:41:57
So I spent a lot of time at the walk and being very particular.
1:42:02
About his balance and halt and then back up and walk forward just like
1:42:06
these little moves until the dynamic of energy through his body was such.
1:42:12
And so I could feel him really collecting his walk and not
1:42:15
just getting jammed together.
1:42:17
And yeah, after, you know, doing weeks of that and then I can
1:42:24
start riding, I'm like, holy crap.
1:42:26
He's like more collected than before his injury because I took the
1:42:31
time to just fiddle and find that dynamic, you know, get the dynamic
1:42:37
working and then adding power to it.
1:42:39
So, he really helped inform me about the power of just seeing the dynamic,
1:42:46
seeing how the energy's flowing through the body and, and being conscious
1:42:50
about where, what I'm adding power to.
1:42:54
Because he'll, he'll go forward, you know, anytime.
1:42:57
But it's like I needed to, like, let me organize it and, and
1:43:01
educate, educate his body to what it, its possibilities could be.
1:43:06
And then he, he was like, mm-hmm.
1:43:08
Oh my God, my hind legs bend.
1:43:10
Like, yes, now you can pee off and you can pirouette.
1:43:13
And, and Spanish wok was very therapeutic for him.
1:43:17
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
1:43:18
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
1:43:18
So he's just, he's just a character that I just love.
1:43:23
He's so goofy and so powerful and so resilient and and he's pretty,
1:43:28
Rupert Isaacson: can't wait to come be him.
1:43:30
Yeah.
1:43:30
Hopefully I'll be later this year.
1:43:33
So
1:43:34
Karen Rohlf: yeah,
1:43:34
Rupert Isaacson: I'd love to drop in, pay homage to him.
1:43:38
So listen, I, I feel that there are points in the conversation we
1:43:42
haven't yet had time to touch on.
1:43:45
And as we approach the two hour mark, what I think maybe we should do is if
1:43:51
you give all the resources now, the online resources, all the plugs where
1:43:55
you can find you, how they can sign up for your online stuff, how they can come
1:43:58
and learn, live with you and whatever.
1:44:01
And then what I'd like to do with your permission is I'd like to have
1:44:04
a rematch of this conversation, and I'd like to look at the use
1:44:10
of dressage for equine wellbeing.
1:44:14
You've, you've just been touching on it, you know, in, in this, you
1:44:16
know, for example, how can the, you know, the lifting of the shoulder
1:44:19
and the Spanish book be therapeutic?
1:44:21
You know, how can the pf.
1:44:23
Be therapeutic, particularly as horses age, you know, et
1:44:25
cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
1:44:27
And I think this isn't something that is talked about much yet
1:44:30
within the dressage thing.
1:44:32
Again, I've had to, because most of the therapy horses that
1:44:36
we use are old donation horses that we have to yoga, right?
1:44:41
And so again, that perspective luckily sort of came with the package.
1:44:49
But IS we all know that the current relationship that the public has
1:44:55
with dressage is that it's, it's not there for EQU wellbeing.
1:44:58
And the, that's a little bit like if we were all suddenly, if, if yoga suddenly
1:45:04
became an Olympic sport and suddenly everyone would be like dislocating
1:45:08
their shoulders and displacing their hips, doing the very thing that is
1:45:12
supposed to prevent you from doing that.
1:45:13
You know what I mean?
1:45:14
It's, it's, oh yeah.
1:45:16
So with your permission, could we, could we.
1:45:19
Have a second conversation this year, another podcast where we
1:45:24
can talk about that because I, I do think that would be useful.
1:45:26
I'd love it.
1:45:27
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
1:45:27
I, I'd love it.
1:45:28
And it's, it's so important and I just feel like, you know what you're just
1:45:31
saying, like, humans can ruin everything by then having to compete, like I
1:45:35
met somebody who's like, their hobby, their, their, you know, life passion
1:45:39
was, you know, orchids and then they're talking about all the competitions.
1:45:42
So I'm like, you got what?
1:45:44
There has to be like a best orchid.
1:45:46
Like, what the hell?
1:45:47
Can't we just enjoy them?
1:45:50
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
1:45:52
Karen Rohlf: Anyway.
1:45:53
But yeah, that'd be fun.
1:45:55
Yeah, because we have lots of stories.
1:45:57
Rupert Isaacson: Give us, how do people find you?
1:46:00
Tell us the, the names of your courses, your websites, the lot.
1:46:04
Karen Rohlf: Awesome.
1:46:05
Well, if you, if I'm very googleable, but if you go to dressage naturally.net,
1:46:10
you will find everything.
1:46:12
There's usually a little green bar on the top that gives whatever
1:46:16
is currently you know, the, the current thing that's happening.
1:46:20
But there's also a, a page called Learn and that will list all the courses and
1:46:25
it, it lists all the online offerings I have in kind of reference to that happy
1:46:30
athlete training scale of like, which part of the scale does it focus on?
1:46:34
So there's lots to choose from.
1:46:36
The, if anybody wants to kind of, the, the lowest price offerings
1:46:41
are my video classroom, which is just the entire library.
1:46:44
And you can go muck around and there's a free trial.
1:46:47
But a lot of people get lost and, and maybe don't want a subscription.
1:46:51
But the other one I recommend people go to is called How to Create a Happy Athlete.
1:46:56
And it's very concise and it goes through that happy athlete training scale so
1:47:01
that you really get the whole concept.
1:47:03
And then I have like key exercises in each section to, to help, help build that.
1:47:08
And so that's, that's my new favorite introduction to kind of get the
1:47:13
nutshell without being overwhelmed.
1:47:15
And I just leads you through, I just go through the modules and there's
1:47:18
a bunch of q recorded, Q and As.
1:47:21
Where you can hear me, you know, student questions and then how I think, talk
1:47:27
through and explain the logic and how I'm answering based on that scale.
1:47:31
So that's super fun.
1:47:33
And then twice a year we open our finding the sweet spot of Healthy biomechanics
1:47:37
course which is six months of you get lifetime access and then six months to
1:47:41
live weekly calls, which is super cool.
1:47:44
And that's gonna be opening up later in March.
1:47:47
And that's for anybody who's like, all right, I'm in.
1:47:50
We will hold your hand, we will walk you through it, and we will talk to you every
1:47:55
week to make sure you don't get stuck.
1:47:59
So that's it.
1:48:00
And we, you know, when you get to the website, if you look under the.
1:48:03
Contact us page or in, it's actually the link is also on the learn page,
1:48:07
but we do free private consults, which means you can get on the phone with
1:48:12
one of my instructors and my right hand person and you can sit and just have a
1:48:17
private conversation and tell her what's going on with you and your horse, and
1:48:22
she'll help point you to what she thinks will be the best the best resource.
1:48:27
And we are in touch all the time, so if you need to talk to me, you can.
1:48:31
But sometimes it's just in this internet world, it's so nice just to talk to a
1:48:35
human and be able to like, explain things.
1:48:39
So we really wanna offer, you know, the, the live support.
1:48:43
There's always someone you can talk to.
1:48:46
We welcome emails.
1:48:48
Yeah, just don't, don't be shy about reaching out if you
1:48:50
have a question or a comment.
1:48:52
We always available
1:48:56
Rupert Isaacson: and the book.
1:48:58
Karen Rohlf: Yeah, on the book you can get to that from our shop.
1:49:01
It's called, you know, dressage Naturally and it comes, the book itself comes with
1:49:06
three hours of video, which is super fun.
1:49:09
Rupert Isaacson: Cool.
1:49:10
Karen Rohlf: Yeah.
1:49:12
Rupert Isaacson: Alright, well you heard it lads, so go over there,
1:49:17
check it out, put your money down.
1:49:19
And we are gonna have Karen back on and we're gonna talk about, I, I think what
1:49:24
we'll do is I have a second podcast called Equine Assisted World, and I think that's
1:49:28
where we should have that conversation.
1:49:29
Okay.
1:49:30
Because sometimes, you know, we are assisting Equines Equines at assisting us.
1:49:35
Karen Rohlf: Yeah,
1:49:36
Rupert Isaacson: that
1:49:36
Karen Rohlf: interesting.
1:49:36
Rupert Isaacson: Look out for that one.
1:49:38
Please.
1:49:38
If you're listening and watching.
1:49:40
Karen, thank you so much.
1:49:41
This has been really educational and fun.
1:49:44
Well
1:49:45
Karen Rohlf: thank you.
1:49:46
Yeah, super fun.
1:49:47
And hey, will you come on my podcast sometime?
1:49:49
Rupert Isaacson: I would love to come on your podcast.
1:49:51
Karen Rohlf: Awesome.
1:49:52
We will, we will arrange that.
1:49:53
Then
1:49:54
Rupert Isaacson: shoot me an email or, or a text and we'll do, yeah, we'll do that.
1:49:59
Okay.
1:50:00
Until the next time, my friend.
1:50:01
Karen Rohlf: All right.
1:50:02
Thanks.
1:50:02
Rupert Isaacson: Bye.
1:50:03
Thank you.
1:50:04
Bye-bye.
1:50:04
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1:50:08
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