Latest / The Partial Historians / Episode 171 – The Gallic Sack of Rome – Part 6
Transcript
- Dr Rad 0:15 Welcome to the partial historians. Dr G 0:19 We explore all the details of ancient Rome, Dr Rad 0:23 everything from political scandals, the love affairs, the battle's waged and when citizens turn against each other, I'm Dr rad Dr G 0:33 and I'm Dr G, we consider Rome as the Romans saw it, by reading different authors from the ancient past and comparing their stories. Dr Rad 0:44 Join us as we trace the journey of Rome from the founding of the city. Dr Rad 0:56 Welcome to a brand new episode of the partial historians. I am one of your hosts. Dr Rad, Dr G 1:04 and I am, Dr G, and we are deep, deep, deep in the Gallic sack of Rome. Dr Rad 1:12 Is this our longest kind of series, if you will? Dr G 1:17 Dr G, our longest mini series. It might be. It could possibly be rivaled by Coriolanus, but nevertheless, we are now in what is part six of 390 BCE, and that is a lot of parts. Dr Rad 1:33 It is, I feel like the decemvirate, it lasted for a long time that dragged on. Dr G 1:39 That's true. I don't even think forgotten, yeah, Dr Rad 1:42 I don't even think that the decemvirate it lasted as long as 390 BCE, but there's just so much drama. Listeners, we have to explore every detail, Dr G 1:52 so many of those details. And in our previous episode, it was a lot of Livy's details, if I recall rightly. Dr Rad 2:01 It was so to give a broad recap of where we have been, the Romans have been very rude to the Gauls interfering in something that really was, quite frankly, none of their business. Whereas maybe what actually happened is maybe we had some sort of Fabian rogue warlords who did something a bit trashy that they weren't supposed to do, like, I don't know, kill a Gallic leader and strip his body during the battle, sparked off some resentment between the Romans and the Gauls, if we are to believe it, although, again, alternative accounts would suggest that maybe Rome was just something that the Gauls encountered on their way to somewhere else, and they decided, Hey, that looks like a cool place to sack. Dr G 2:46 Yeah, there seems to be competing theories. Either Dr Rad 2:49 way, we have had a military encounter between the Gauls and the Romans. Didn't go well for the Romans. The Gauls have then followed them back to Rome itself. They've set up siege. Lots of Romans have had to flee to various places, including just randomly, the countryside or other cities for safety. But we have a valiant band of Romans who remained in the city, Dr G and they were holding out for so long, but finally, in our last episode, they realized that they couldn't hold out much longer in my account, they were waiting for Camillus to turn up, because Camillus had somehow been appointed dictator, even though the Romans are scattered throughout Italy at this point in time. And indeed, Camillus does show up, not in time to stop the people who are defending the Capitolini and the citadel of Rome from the Gauls from surrendering, but he shows up just in the nick of time to prevent the Romans from having to hand over this ransom that they were going to pay to the Gauls in order for them to go away, which was very opportune. And then Camillus proceeds to use the soldiers that he's been training whilst in exile to kick some Gallic butt. Excellent. Dr G 4:08 It strikes me that Livy is offering us a very convenient narrative that really positions Camillus as the Lord and Savior of our grand city, Rome, and yet his account does not tally up very well with Diodorus Siculus. And I have been flagging this for a little while, and it is, it is now time, I think, to see the great divergence that happens in our source material. Because up until now, they've agreed about a lot of things, stories like the sacred geese, stories like people approaching Rome from Fay being like, we're here to help. There's a secret force in another place, and all of that kind of stuff. The offensiveness that has happened from the Fabian side that has precipitated this insult, all of these details seen. Him to be part of various narrative sources. But when we get to the issue of what is going on with Camillus, we have Livy's suggesting that he's made dictator in absentia and has been preparing even though he's been in exile for quite some time. And yet, when we turn to Diodorus Siculus, we get a very different sort of recount of the unfolding of these events. So I'd like to take you through some of them. Dr Rad 5:31 I'm not sure I want to hear this. Dr G I would rather Camillus remained on his pedestal. But if you insist, I shall not be rude. Dr G 5:40 I'm not sure that I'm going to tear his pedestal completely away, but just to add a bit of complexity. Dr Rad 5:50 You mean, I haven't added complexity where I basically questioned almost every detail. I mean, last episode, we basically agreed that there's very little archeological evidence that the Gauls actually did sack Rome, even though we're in part six of the Gallic sack, we're going to Dr G 6:06 work with the premise for now. Yeah, there was some sort of Gallic sack, yeah, but obviously, a lot of this is open to question, and from an archeological perspective, we're a little bit confused, and particularly because our sources do emphasize this idea that there is a rebuilding phase, yes, so we have the Gauls take the gold, and the Romans do hand over this huge sum of money, and the Gauls do walk away. Dr Rad 6:37 Do they agree on the amount of gold that was handed over? At least Diodorus and Livy. Dr G 6:41 Oh yes, oh yes, yeah. It's 1000 pounds of gold. It's, it is a huge sum for this time period. I mean, it would be a huge sum at any time if somebody came to say 1000 pounds of gold, I'd be like, I cannot. Dr Rad 6:54 I didn't even have any gold jewelry to give you. Yeah, my Dr G 6:57 earthly possessions, if you converted it to gold, would not tally up to anywhere near that. So it is massive what has been asked and what has been handed over. And in Diodorus Siculus, there is no Camillus on the scene. Dr Rad 7:14 Well, suspect immediately, suspect. Dr G 7:18 Questions need to be asked. So the Gauls start to leave. They take the gold with them, and the Romans immediately turn to rebuilding the city, because there has been plenty of damage created by the siege. And we get this idea that the Romans gather together, they decide that there will be a state funded rebuilding program, Dr Rad 7:42 essentially sounds very formal, Dr G 7:44 very formal. Yes. Sign on the line here, and you're entitled to 10 Roman roof tiles which you can use to rebuild your home. Yeah. So these, this idea of roof tiles being manufactured and given out to Roman citizens seems to be part of the rebuilding program, and Camillus still nowhere to be seen. People are like, I'm just gonna rebuild my house. I got these public tiles. I've got my willpower, and I'm just gonna try to rebuild So fair enough at the same time. And I think I've mentioned this previously as well. The Volscians have seen this as a prime opportunity. Rome is at its most vulnerable, and they can see from afar that presumably there's like a sort of a pile of trash where a city used to be, and there's some people picking through it being like, I can rebuild. It's our time to take the spot we can take them. So that's what they decide to do. They roll up to Rome, essentially, and the Romans can see them coming, and they're like, Oh, we better try and muster as many people as we possibly can. This is a Roman force that has just endured a siege. They're probably not most robust in their physicality right now, but they do try to field an army to propel the Volscians. And it is only at this point where, and we don't know where Camillus has been all this time, because it's not entirely clear. Dr Rad 9:21 Ardea, obviously, he's been doing a rocky montage. Dr G 9:29 He has been very busy with his rocky montage, that's true, and he is now appointed dictator. So finally, he re enters the narrative way too late for the Gallic sack of Rome. He misses it all not there. Just want to underline that point. He missed the whole thing. Dr Rad 9:50 Livy has far too many rhetorical gems for this to be untrue. Dr, G, I mean, what are you suggesting that he can. Instructed most of the first of his 10 books, and almost certainly book six to 10, around the figure of Camillus, because he had such a grand reputation in the late Republic. Dr G 10:13 Maybe, certainly, certainly Livy's operating under the constraints that Diodorus Siculus is not and this might mean that for this portion of Diodorus' history, for which he rarely focuses on Rome, because let's face it, he's more interested in what's actually happening in the broader Mediterranean, which is Greece, naturally. But when he does decide to focus on Rome, he might be a little bit more objective than say, somebody like Livy putting it out there. Dr Rad 10:49 You're gonna be very sorry when I tell you what else Livy has to say about this whole deal, my friend. Because we haven't even got to the end of this year in Livy's account, there is plenty more Camillus to come. Dr G 11:01 Oh, and there's plenty more Camillus to come in Diodorus Siculus as well. So there might be moments where this all starts to make sense again. On some level, Camillus forces are able to take down the Volscians, and apparently they are slaughtered, almost to a man. So that's pretty bad. And it's at that point that Camillus then starts to go on what appears to be an all over Italy sort of rampage with his forces, because once he locks in the victory over the volscian he immediately turns towards the city of bola, which is thought to be the same place as modern Labici, 35 kilometers south east of Rome. So we're in the Castelli Romani region. Something's been going on there. Bola is being besieged by the Aequians. So, you know, while the Gauls have been doing things, all the neighboring people have been getting up to naughtiness. As far as the Romans are concerned, Camillus goes and clears them out as well. So he immediately heads 35 kilometers south. So we really need, like, a map montage for the things that are going to happen, because he starts off with the volscian He then marches south east, deals with the Aequians. He then marches all the way to Sutrium, 50 kilometers north of Rome, a Roman colony there is being plagued by the Etruscans, so they need to be dealt with as well. Dr Rad 12:33 This all adds up. Now I see where Diodorus is going. And look, I think this has to do with our confusing chronology for the events of this year. Because, of course, we're saying that the Gallic sack of Rome, Gaelic attack on Rome, whatever you want to call it, happens in 390 but of course, that's not 100% certain. In fact, I would say it probably didn't happen in that year. It's just the confusing nature of the chronology of this time. And certainly in Livy's account, Camillus is about to do all of those things, but not yet. Dr G, he has something else to deal with. And this is again, where you can see how Livy's very much making this the Camillus show, and he's focusing on something totally different to what you've just been talking about, because that's going to come later. Dr G 13:21 So he takes Sutrium back, because apparently it was a Roman colony and it needed to be returned to Roman control. So the Etruscans, they see Camillus coming and like, Oh no, Rome's back, and it's a disaster for them. And then it turns out that the Gauls have not really left Italy. After all, they've taken a small break at a city called Vascium, which is 125 kilometers north of Rome. Camillus hears wind of this, and he's like, this is our chance we can get the gold back. And so it's another quick march further up into Etruscan territory, they attack the Gaulish force. Slay them in huge numbers, because obviously the Gauls are also sort of suffering from the siege aftermath, and they're not having a great time. And it is there, apparently, all this way north of Rome, deep inside Etruscan territory, that Camillus is finally able to take back Rome's gold and return it back to the city. So this is a quick fire, sort of moving south, moving north, moving north again, attacking everybody. Camillus comes in like a train, and nobody can, nobody can resist the power of his militarism, and he gets back the gold. Dr Rad 14:46 So Diodorus still has Camillus being responsible for the return of the gold, which is interesting, because we do have these snippets in other sources, like Suetonius tells the story about one of Tiberius' ancestors in. Getting into like a duel with a Gallic character, and winning the gold back that way. We also have a little tidbit in Strabo, I believe, where he talks about the people of Caere which was the city you might recall, where the Vestal virgins took, apparently, a lot of room sacred objects when the siege was imminent. And it's perhaps because of this and the people from Caere recovering the gold and giving it back to the Romans, that the Romans have this special relationship with them, which we'll get to, I'm sure, in both of our accounts very shortly. So it's interesting that Diodorus is still maintaining that Camillus is responsible for it, even though it happens in a very different order and a different way. Dr G 15:42 Yeah, so we have a certain amount of consistency with Livy. It's just that the timelines really don't match up at all. And Camillus does all of these sort of really what sounds like fantastical, sort of military movements in quick succession, one after the other, and is kind of everywhere in central Italy, and then all of a sudden, is like, Haha, I found it. And then comes back to Rome, Dr Rad 16:06 the goal at the end of the rainbow, Dr G 16:09 definitely, as far as he's concerned, he's found the treasure. Yeah. Dr Rad 16:13 Okay, so in Livy, the timeline is quite different. He gives a lot more detail to these, these military escapades that you're talking about, and they happen in, I think, different years. So that's why it's it's kind of a bit more spaced out. And this is, perhaps, again, as we talked about, like the the slight padding that might have gone on with some of the years in this time period, and the way things are, the way things are adding up, and perhaps also, as you have highlighted, the way that Livy may or may not have inserted Camillus in moments where Camillus did not actually belong. So we will see. But in my account, Camillus goes from basically killing all of the Gauls immediately so he prevents the gold from leaving Rome. He then uses the troops that he's been training in exile once he knew that Rome wanted him back and wanted him as dictator to absolutely annihilate them. The Romans are thrilled. Everything is looking much, much better, even though, obviously it's still not great because they still just come out of the siege and their city apparently has been burnt to the ground. However, this is where we need to switch to the classic conflict of the orders kind of material? Dr G 17:24 Ooh, yes, yes, do tell Dr Rad 17:28 we're going back to an issue which has been flagged in some of our previous episodes, which is that ever since the Romans have conquered they there has been a group that think it would be a good idea to move at least some of the Romans to ve to live there. So this is where this issue comes back up. The tribune of the plebs, who we haven't talked about for a while, decide to be bothersome ruin camilius good time, because they desperately still want the Romans to move to vain now they have a real reason to argue for that. It's not just, Oh, hey, there's this whole city just sitting there. Why don't we move some people over there? Now they're looking around and saying, Hey, did you notice that our city's just been burnt to the ground by some invading Gauls, rather than hanging around here, which is depressing and there's no shelter, etc, why don't we just take this opportunity to pack up and move to they the plebs are listening because they can see the sense in this. Because they're looking around too and saying, Oh yes, I see what you mean. Burnt city seems like a lot of hassle when there's this empty city just sitting right there, not that far away from Rome. However, this is absolutely abhorrent to Camillus. He completely shuts it down. Won't hear talk of this at all, and he actually gets to keep his dictatorship, even after he has dealt with the Gauls and massacred them, because the Senate feel that they need him in this position of authority in order to make sure that this whole crazy Veii plan doesn't gain any traction. So he's still got some time. He's managed to accomplish everything very quickly, saying once he's back on the scene in Livy's account. So he's still got some time. And so they want him around to oversee the process for Rome at this point in time, post sack by the Gauls. Okay? Dr G 19:41 So he's kind of in a disaster relief position, Dr Rad 19:45 yes, and they the Senate feel safer because, again, this is lending, This is lending to that conflict of the orders narrative. We're presuming that most of the senators, at least in Livy's account, are meant to be, obviously, patricians, we presume, even though we know that. That's not always the case, apparently, and Camillus would be protecting their interests and what they want to see happening at this point in time. So what ends up happening is Camillus decides that religion needs to be his focus as dictator. Because this is a very big characteristic of Camillus and Livy's account, he's extremely pious, and as I've been trying to highlight with Livy's account, he is at pains to emphasize when the Romans have been displeasing the gods, and then to emphasize when the Romans are actually doing things by the book, and therefore kind of deserve the God's favor. And what we've seen is that ever since the Gauls started attacking Rome, and things went bad for them at the Alia in that initial battle, the Romans have been trying to do things correctly. So we've had, you know, Fabians wandering about with seemingly not a care in the world in order to carry out family rituals. And we've seen Camillus, you know, refuse to be accepted as a refuse to be appointed as a dictator unless the proper procedures have been followed. So this is carrying on, this idea that the Romans are back on track. They're laser focused. Dr, G, they're not just to do anything to upset the guards. This time around, they've learned their lesson. Dr G 21:19 It is a very bizarre time, and it's a confusing time within the source material as well. So this is where I would start to have a look at plutarch's Life of Camillus, because he is obviously trying to write some moral edifying biographies. And it's like, what can we learn from people, and what would be the appropriate things to do. And he taps into some of this. And there is a sense in which Camillus becomes fundamental in certain narratives, and certainly in plutarch's narrative, to the proper and right way of doing things when it comes to ritual practice in the wake of the Gallic sack. So we first of all hear about the priests all returning, so slowly the news gets out that the Gauls have gone and people can start coming back to Rome. That's really important, because a lot of Rome's ritual practice is dependent on the geography. So you can't be a Vestal virgin in practice, unless you're in the temple in the Aedes Vestae. Likewise, what would it mean to read the signs of the birds if you're not standing in the right location? Because it would be bird signs for somewhere else, not for where you are. All of these things become dependent on geography. So having the priest come back, super important moment in terms of getting Rome back on track, and that seems to be facilitated by the Gauls leaving. And Camillus seems to also be involved in this, to a certain degree. He apparently starts to restore some of the temples that have been damaged in the wake of the sack. And plutek makes reference to one that we really don't know anything about, called a temple to rumor and voice, which is a new temple, apparently. Dr Rad 23:11 Yeah, that might be related to the, you know, how there was that plebeian who heard the voice warning? I think that might Dr G 23:18 be that was ignored. Yes, quite possibly it's called the Ara Aii Locutii, yeah, that's the one, yeah, and we kind of don't hear about it again, but it's apparently very important, and Camillus is involved, so there is that. But we also have this continuing discussion, as you mentioned, between what about they versus what about Rome? And it seems to be an almost irresolvable question for the Romans about what do we do with this place that we've we took so long to take but now we're not really doing anything with it's Dr Rad 23:57 Valuable real estate. It's just sitting there. Dr G 24:00 Yeah, I'm just gonna let it accumulate value in this late stage capitalism. It's gonna be great. So they're just sort of sitting on Veii, but not actually utilizing it. And I can see, from a plebeian perspective, why that would be such a waste. And I'm not sure that I understand the mindset of these very conservative patricians about nobody can go there, and maybe they're just worried about having rivals, because obviously a new elite would emerge in a different location. So I find these things really quite interesting, because it's all happening at the same time. We've got Rome expanding and then immediately contracting, and now having to deal with its expansionist legacy in a moment where they're still recovering from the contraction, which is the Gauls arrival. Dr Rad 24:50 Well, Dr, G, you could not have given me any more perfect a segue. You want to understand the mindset of the conservatives that don't want to go to Veii. You're about to get pages of it be. Because Livy's about to give you a giant speech from Camillus. No, before I get into the speech, I will give you the exact details that Livy tells me Camillus focuses on first. So he goes to the Senate and he gets them to issue a decree so that he can actually go about the religious program that he thinks needs to happen in order to make sure that everything is square for the Romans. So exactly as you said, shrines and temples, they obviously need to be purified. They need to be restored after the Gallic sack. If we think of the Gallic sack as maybe being more about the Gauls seizing any portable wealth that Rome had as a city, that would make sense. Shrines and temples are places that the Gauls definitely would have gone to to see if there was anything valuable inside those buildings, which presumably would have been a bit more monumental or perhaps well cared for than some of the other dwellings that would have existed in Rome at this time. And I kind of do think that that's probably what the Gauls were more after. I don't think they were actually that interested in setting Rome on fire, and certainly there's no evidence of that. And we also have this reference to duumvirs, who who are asked to look through the sibylline books to make sure that the proper rights are followed. And the sibylline books come up again and again in our histories of Rome. These are books that the Romans tend to turn to in times of trouble when they need to look to the answers for things in this collection that has been put together and and also make sure that everything is is going according to plan, as seems to be what they're doing here. This is where Camillus also suggests that Rome needs to have this covenant of hospitality with car a now in Livy's account, that's because car a took in the refugee Romans, so the vessels who were fleeing with the sacred objects, carre took them in and kept them safe. And this is why it's important to honor that. Because of that, the Roman gods have still been able to receive some worship whilst the galaxy was going on, which, as we've talked about in a previous episode, apparently, was like six or seven months, so quite a long time. However, it could be, as we were just talking about, that the people of carre are the ones that actually retrieved the gold for the Romans, and therefore that's why they have this reputation. But that is not mentioned by Livy, Dr G 27:33 yeah, we owe you big time. Dr Rad 27:37 He also wants the Capitolini games to be held. So these are games that are set up in honor of Jupiter, because Jupiter did not allow Rome to completely fall. They held that tiny piece of territory amidst all the trouble, even though some modern historians don't actually think that that is true, and that Rome was maybe captured in its entirety. We'll run with the version that the Romans have, which is that they held that Capitolini Hill till their dying breath. Dr G 28:09 They held out that little square where Jupiter's temple also stands. They managed to salvage that. Thank you, Jupiter, Dr Rad 28:18 yes, and in order for this to happen, he puts together a college of priests who are going to be involved in organizing and holding the Capitolini games called the Capitolini, once again, Rome with the clever names. Dr G 28:36 They do love a clever name. Dr Rad 28:37 These men are chosen from the men who were involved in holding the hill originally. Obviously, that can't be true forever, but he chooses from amongst those men who had stayed behind in Rome the whole time and helped to hold the hill. Now, we actually don't know for certain when the Capitolini games were first held in Rome. We, as usual, have varying accounts that show the Romans themselves are a little confused. Certainly, Camillus is a popular choice as the person who founds the Capitolini games or sets up the Capitolini games, but we do also have references to figures like Romulus organizing the first Capitolini games. What we can say safely is that they old. They real old, Dr G 29:22 quite, quite old. Yes, okay, that's really interesting. I think tapping into the idea of having held the Capitol line, and that being the foundation story essentially for the capitolini's games is it feels like a nice, neat narrative. So I can see why it would be an appealing sort of backstory, so an etiology for what's going on here. Yes, there are some weird sort of connections that sort of crop up amongst all of this, and I don't want to destroy what might be coming up for you, but. But are we going to talk about the head? Dr Rad 30:03 Yes, but not quite yet. That comes up in the speech, okay. Oh, building up. We're talking about the same head. Dr G 30:12 Wink Wink. Listeners, watch out if you already know about the head. This is a spoiler. Dr Rad 30:19 So this is where Livy also tells me about the temple being set up to Aius Locutius. So that's the God that is now recognized because of the omen that was given to that plebeian who was ridiculed and not believed before the Gallic Sack actually happened. And now, of course, Camillus also has to decide what to do with the gold because in this account, the Gauls never got it. The Romans collected it, but they kept it. Now, this is where it gets a bit confusing, because, as you know, Livy was very clear that the gold was somehow taken from state funds and also topped up by contributions from people like the matrons, this group of random women that we get to reference every now and then, Dr G 31:04 oh, look. And Diodorus Siculus also backs up that idea that the women contributed to that fund. So that is a sort of an enduring, kind of repeated narrative as well, that the women were involved. Dr Rad 31:16 Sure, I believe that the women were involved. Do I believe that the Romans didn't borrow a little bit of their funding from maybe some temple treasury. I don't know that I do. Dr G, Dr G 31:30 it's hard, you know, you're stuck on a hill. What are you gonna do? Dr Rad 31:33 Yeah, well, the Romans had gathered up certain temple treasure and stored it all in the temple of Jupiter, because, of course, that's on the Capitoline, which is what they were defending. And now that the siege is all over, they can't remember where it all came from. They're like, Ah, I guess we should have labeled this. Oh, this is awkward. I don't know what to do. Dr G 31:56 Did nobody keep a spreadsheet for this guys? Guys, I Dr Rad 32:00 know this is what Excel was invented for Jesus Christ, Marcus. So they decide that they're just going to wave their magic wand and say, poof, all of this gold is now sacred and it's going to be placed under Jupiter's throne. Dr G 32:18 Ta, da, ooh. All right, well, at the risk of making all the other gods that have their temples elsewhere in the city, that have had their treasure poor loin to go up to the top of that hill. Well, that's bold move Rome. Dr Rad 32:32 It didn't happen. That's why we don't have to worry about it. Now this is where the Romans also decide they're going to give a vote of thanks to the matrons for their contribution, and they are, once again, recognized in the traditional manner that matrons usually are when they help the other Romans out, which is they get to have eulogies at their funerals, like their superior men or something. Dr G 32:59 This is big, all right, somebody's going to talk about you after you die. It's a special privilege, exactly. Dr Rad 33:06 It's very unusual for women to get this sort of honor. Again, we're not entirely sure that this would have happened, but sure, let's run with it. Give the women something in return for their contributions. Dr G 33:19 You can have a gift, but you have to be dead first, so make the most of it. Dr Rad 33:23 Well, I think that in See, this is the thing in Livy's account, as you say, it is very neat. In Livy's account, the Roman women contribute this. They contribute their gold so that sacred treasure can be left untouched. So they've got their state funds secured on the Capitol. They don't have quite enough to pay the Gauls, so the Roman matrons chip in, and that way it's all nice and neat. No sacred treasure is touched in Livy's account. But as we say at this point in time, what is money? What is goods? What are we talking about? And it just seems really unlikely that these besieged Romans, when everyone else has fled the city, actually had this large lump of capital just sitting there that wasn't temple treasure. But anyway, I've talked about this enough. Once all of this stuff is taken care of, Camillus can rest easy. Dr G he's got all his piety out of his system. He feels like Rome is now in a good place. Now is when he can turn to properly deal with these troublesome tribunes and the question of they so he goes to an assembly, as do the Senate, and he's about to give the mother of all speeches. Dr G 34:38 Dare I ask? How many pages this runs to in the translation. Dr Rad 34:42 Oh, pages. Well, I mean, for Livy, it's long, like it's nothing compared to probably what you used to have to go through with Dionysius back in the good old days. But it's long as far Dr G 34:51 as when I had a source. Okay, all right, I'm gonna strap myself in. Dr Rad 34:56 Yep. Get ready for it. Yeah. Camillus is particular. Ly distressed by this whole situation, because the one thing that sort of made him feel somewhat okay about being in exile in Ardea was the fact that he actually he hated the idea that people even wanted to go to they kind of made him go, You know what? Maybe I shouldn't be in Rome. Maybe Rome does suck. Maybe our deer is not so bad, because the Romans are actually considering going to Veii - disgusting, Dr G 35:29 such a low move, he Dr Rad 35:31 actually says he would never have even gone back to Rome, even if the Senate and the people had begged him just so he could avoid tribunes like this. Dr G 35:44 I just this Roman mindset is baffling. It really is. Dr Rad 35:48 He really only came back because Rome was just in such a bad situation. He felt like he really couldn't say no. But I mean, if it had been a little bit better, maybe he wouldn't Dr G because tribunes, they're the worst. He then points out, annoyingly logically, why even bother to fight the Gauls? Why drive them out of Roman territory if you're then just going to turn around and abandon the City immediately? Why did I do all of this? Why did I come out of exile? Why did I do the Rocky montage? Dr G 36:21 But counterpoint, counterpoint. It's not all Rome moving to Veii. It's just some of the people moving to ve like we're not talking about leaving Rome in the dust and pretending like it never existed. We're just saying some people are now living on this hill over here. Dr Rad 36:38 That was the initial proposal back before the Gallic sack had happened, you're absolutely right, they were talking about maybe dividing the population and only sending some I think at this point though, Rome is so atrociously destroyed in Livy's account that maybe it's more we actually all relocate. Even worse, even be like, Dr G 36:59 Guys, yeah, everything's been burnt down here. Like, let's Veii still has some building standing. Like, bite the bullet, just let's move. Dr Rad 37:08 Yeah, so Camillus so Camillus then says, you know, the Romans have managed to hold the Capitol and the Citadel all throughout this terrible time. Again. Why would you put yourself through that. I mean, basically the brink of starvation and all that deprivation. We can't even imagine what those guys went through, and then they're just going to walk away and leave it voluntarily, that patch that they defended for so long. I don't think so. Camillus also brings in his religious side here. Of course, he feels like Rome's gods, their religious traditions that had endured for hundreds of years at this point had always managed to protect Rome, even in this moment, there has been that level of protection. How could the Romans think of turning their backs on their gods now? Because, as you pointed out, there are certain things which are very much tied to the city of Rome itself. You can't just move them to a new location, at least the way that the Romans have done them in the past. Camillus points out that if the Romans actually do their math, get out their Excel spreadsheet over the past few years, whilst Yes, they'd had some very high hives and some very low lows, but the highs had always coincided with moments where the Romans were listening to the gods. Need he say more? Dr G, this misfortune with the gods had all happened because the Romans had started turning their backs on the gods and not listening to the many warnings that were provided to them that could have helped them to avoid this whole situation. Once the chips were down with the Gauls, then the Romans started to get back on track again, get religious again. They had made sure that they held the capital and Jupiter Optimus, Maximus had helped them out as well. The Gauls had never managed to take the Capitol line. They'd also buried their holy relics, because the Romans were trying to make sure that such things could not fall into barbarian hands as mere loot, mere booty. It had all been protected. The earth of Rome itself had protected their holy relics. How could the Romans think of leaving the earth the soil? Dr, G, Dr G 39:31 well, I feel like Camillus is getting carried away, because part of the trouble that Rome has faced is because he's forgotten some of his oaths. Like, lest we forget that Camillus is part of the problem. Dr Rad 39:45 Look, maybe he's not trying to deny that. Maybe he's trying to, I think the thing is, here's the thing is forgetfulness. You know, once you realize you forgot something, he's like, Ooh, this is going to be awkward, guys, but I need some of that booty back. Yeah, he always tries and does the right thing. He just sometimes he seems to be a little bit of a buffoon, Dr G 40:12 debatable, but yeah, look here he is getting up and being like, you just got to make things right with the gods. I'm like, buddy, you need a mirror. Dr Rad 40:20 Nonetheless, he's very much on this bandwagon that once the Romans were facing danger, they did the right thing. They made sure that everything was safe, that was holy, kept the temple treasures safe, and due to this, it's because of this that the Romans managed to get back their land, not necessarily because of him, but because the gods were now back on their side, and this is something that Livy also mentioned, that fortune was now back on the Roman side. When they were able to massacre every living goal, there are no goals left. Dr G, the Romans have killed them all, and the Gauls got their punishment, because when they tried to do their trickery with the scales, what happened? They didn't get the girl, did they? No, no, the gods made sure that Camilla showed up at just the right time to make sure that they would be punished. I mean, do you need any Dr G 41:21 certain scholarly accounts only for certain types of evidence? Dr Rad 41:28 Camillus really wants the Romans to realize that they have only, just by the skin of their teeth, managed to avert total disaster, and yet, if they decide to relocate today, they're just going to be running headlong into another one, and he is here to give them their wake up call. The entire city of Rome is completely shot through with their religion, their gods, the sacrifices that need to happen every year, the Holy Days that have to be observed every year. Are the Romans really thinking they can just leave? He comes back to this point a lot. Do the Romans really think they can just leave? Not just the state deities. Dr G, think of the family gods. So I presume he's referring to things like the lares, which FYI we've done a special episode on archaic religion in Republican Rome that you might like to listen to to understand more about that. But they are definitely important to the Romans. He thinks, how does this stack up when you also compare the conduct of the Romans right now where they're thinking of leaving to that of Gaius Fabius during the Gallic sack. I mean, he had risked death to make sure that the appropriate rituals had been carried out. He did not let the worship slip. Famine or no famine, Siege or no siege, and now the citizens we're not even faced with any danger are again thinking that they can somehow be more cash about all these rituals when there's no immediate reason for them to ignore what is going on? What are they thinking? Dr G 43:20 Just a slight question, is it the case that when Livy is writing that there seems to be some concerns about people leaving Rome for other places? Is Is there some sort of contemporary anxiety around robe itself at this point in time when Livy is composing this history? Because this sounds like somebody who's a little bit scared that maybe things aren't going well in contemporary, late Republican Rome. Dr Rad 43:47 Well, I mean, I think the Gallic sack is meant to be a pretty bad time, even if it didn't happen exactly the way that Romans say it happened. I mean, we're calling into question a lot of the details that we're given, but I don't doubt there was some conflict with Gallic peoples at this point in time. I absolutely don't dispute that. There's way too much evidence to the contrary, and not just in Rome. Definitely there are Gauls about they're looking, probably for land. They probably are looking for portable wealth. So I'm not disputing that. It might be a bad time, but they, I think, is the big thing here about Romans sort of deciding its destiny, as we've talked about. It seems odd, given that the siege of Veil lasted for 10 years, and then when the Romans finally win, they seem somewhat surprised and don't really have a plan as to what they're going to actually do with Veii once and conquer it. Dr G 44:36 But this is one of those classic lessons from history where people do not anticipate the consequences of their actions, and then things work out in the way that they were hoping, but they do not have any idea about the next step. And you're like guys, you're now in the position where you have exactly what you want. Dr Rad 44:55 Now this is where Camillus also starts to try and anticipate some of the arguments that the tribunes. Going to throw back at him, of course, he says, you know, maybe the tribunes are going to say, don't worry about it. You can just transfer all the rites and rituals and all the family gods to Veii. Or what if the pontiffs and the flamens, they just visit the old side of Rome when they need to for the rites. You know, they just fly in, fly out, they're there and back in the day. No sweat. But to this, Camillus says, No, this will not satisfy the gods. It is not good enough. So don't even think about it. The gods have high standards. You cannot hold the feast of Jupiter anywhere else but the Capitol period. Now, what he is referring to here is a banquet that was held on the 15th of November where a couch would be set up for Jupiter and Juno and Minerva had little stools on either side, and they would have this feast for Jupiter. So that's what he's particularly referring to, and you'll like this. Dr G, this is where he brings up the Vestal Virgins. What about Vesta's fires? They can't just be moved. They belong to Rome itself. He also brings up, and I'm going to quote my translation directly here, the image which is preserved as a pledge of empire in her temple, which is a reference to an image of Pallas known as the Palladium, which was supposedly brought to Italy by Aeneas, so very much part of the Roman foundational myths, linking them to the Trojan Wars, something very important to them. He also brings up what he refers to as the sacred shields. Yes, these go back to the reign of NUMA Doctor G Another favorite of yours, indeed. Yes. So it started up with Mars Gradivus, or Gradivus and Quirinus, the idea of the sacred shields, and they're sometimes, I think, called the ancillia. I believe, I think we probably actually referred to these things before, but supposedly the original one came from heaven. There were 11 replicas made, and each one was given to one of the 12 Salii Priests of Mars. No one knows which one the original one is, but there is an original. Dr G and Camillus is not happy about this situation. Dr G 47:32 There is an original. And the priests of the Salii are the ones who look after that, right? And it is very important, and you do not want to lose any of the shields, because each one of them could be the one that fell from heaven. And Camillus is tapping into ideas here that Romans do have about location being a primary feature of their devotion to the gods, because there is no doubt, from a Roman perspective, that you would not be able to perform the rites of Vesta in a different location. Each city could have priestesses to Vesta, but if you went to Veii, they would be priestesses of Vesta in Veii. So it's fundamentally not Rome anymore. So this taps into a kind of fundamental sense of like, what is Rome? In terms of like, the broader understanding of self and Rome is at least in part, fundamentally about the location. It's that spot on the Tiber. It is those hills on which they have built those structures, and nothing is able to replicate that. And the real concern is that their understanding of their relationship with the gods is dependent on that location as well. So there's no guarantees if you move to Veii that things will work out for you, because the gods are the same, but you are now different. And what does being in a right relationship with the Roman gods really look like? And because they have this sense that it's tied to location, it's impossible to leave, and we see that coming through in other things as well. So I think we talked recently on Let's Talk about Myths, Baby podcast, about the triumphal procession, and that in two is geographically tied to the city of Rome. You wouldn't have a triumph somewhere else. Romans up expanding a lot, but some things are fundamental to location, and so Camillus is tapping into a deep Roman definition of self, which is about this place, and only this place which is really quite fascinating. And I think Livy is doing something interesting here by tapping into that as well, definitely. Dr Rad 49:51 And so even though this might be a speech invented for Camillus by Livy, maybe May, May. See at the same time the stuff that Camillus is referring to as examples of things that are particularly tied to Rome. As you've just say, they are definitely of tremendous antiquity to the Roman people. You know this feast of Jupiter that was held every year, it does go all the way back to a point where we can't really trace when it started the Palladium. Again, there's definitely question marks about how Aeneas supposedly brought this to Rome. But nonetheless, the idea of it is something again, that's it's quite old. It's meant to be quite an old example, and it just goes to show some of the stuff that the vessels were put in charge of protecting the vessels themselves, obviously very ancient. You know that there's a lot of stuff here that he's tapping into that is so archaic we can't be 100% sure of the origin these things. So he is tapping into those really, really archaic traditions, including like the lares, for example. You know, when we were talking about religion, the lares, the Romans themselves, didn't even know exactly when that all began and when that started, and exactly where that came from. They have lots of theories, and some of them are probably tapping into something, but we can't say for certain this is how it began and this is how it evolved. So he's bringing in all of that kind of stuff, which makes sense, because at for this time period, obviously that stuff is a little less ancient than it is for someone like Livy writing many years later. And so Camillus goes back and points out there's just such a contrast he feels between the Romans that he's addressing now and the ancestors of the Romans who helped to establish these temples, these rites. I mean, they set them up as rituals to be passed down and to be carried out. And what are the current day Romans actually going to do with them? Just leave them, disregard them. He points out exactly what you said. How can they actually move cities and move all this ritual without it ending up being absolutely horrific. I mean, they thought the Gallic sack was bad. That was just after ignoring a couple of things and getting a few things wrong. What are you gonna do now Dr G 52:13 when you ignore a plebeian, what if you ignore the whole geography of the city? Yeah, exactly, guys, it's too risky. Yeah. Dr Rad 52:21 And he also points out the effort they went to to entice Juno over when they conquered they're like, why did we even try and tempt Juno over to Rome and then build her this whole temple on the Aventine? Why did I just build the temple to Aius Locutius? Why did I found the Capitoline and games if you're all just gonna leave, because this is all stuff that's obviously, you know, happening in the city. The vestals always stay in their same place, unless there is an extremely serious enemy attack, like the one that just happened that absolutely forces them to leave the flamen diailis, which, again, we talked about in our episode on religion. As you said, there are so many rules that the Flamen dialis has to follow, including they're not allowed to sleep outside of Rome even for one night. So how is that going to work if you just want to move to they? Is he just gonna stay there by himself, all alone? Dr G 53:23 Well, obviously he's not moving, so, yeah, well, he'll be there with his wife. So cute. Those two can stay. Everybody else has to move. Dr Rad 53:34 Yeah, sorry. I probably should actually say, sorry, he Flamen dialis is one of the most important flamens In the Roman system, there are three big ones, and he's one of the three big ones. Very important, very important. And he says, And what about all the other stuff? What about the pomerium? We have a sacred boundary. Have you not noticed it's a pretty big deal. We have all these rules about what you can and cannot do inside, outside that line. You know, there's all these rituals that have to go with making it bigger. What are we going to do about that? How is that all going to work? How does that work if we just going to move posh? What about how the declaration of war happens? That has to do with the pomerium. It has to do with where people meet. It has to do with the curious Comitia. Okay, all the rules around them. How is that all going to happen? How the auspices going to be taken exactly as you highlighted so you and Camillus, you're not as opposed to each other as you think. We're in sync, yeah. Dr G 54:35 Oh, I'm not opposed to Camillus. I just think that you know his story has been overblown Dr Rad 54:39 for sure. Yeah, absolutely. Now, once again, Camillus tries to anticipate what the tribune is going to come back with, because they haven't been allowed to say anything yet. It's just the Camillus show. Still, he thinks his enemies will say, look, it's not that we're saying that all of this stuff that you're highlighting isn't valid, but we really have no choice. Rome is completely. Be unlivable. Veii is untouched because of the genius way that you managed to take it by that sneaky tunnel and then basically everyone just sort of gave up. Veii is in pretty much perfect, pristine condition. We just have no choice. We have to leave because, you know, what's the alternative that we rebuild actually go into construction? I don't think so. But Camilla sees this as just a sneaky excuse, because this question of moving some people to they had existed before the Gallic sack, so they're just being opportunistic, and he sees through them. He has a completely different perspective to the tribunes. I mean, a more redundant sentence has never been said. He thinks the destruction is actually less reason to leave. Okay? He's like, no, wait, it would be basically admitting that the goals have won. You know, we we've managed to snatch victory from the jaws of defeat, if we were then to turn around and leave. Now we're basically giving it right back to them. You know, we're giving them what they wanted. We're doing what they were aiming for. It just doesn't make any sense. He says, Look, I may have massacred all the Gauls that I could see because I'm Camillus, but rumor has it that the Gauls are incredibly numerous. There might be more of them out there. In fact, he's pretty sure there are. What if they came back? What if another Gallic group came back and found Rome deserted and decided, hey, why don't we live here? This is a pretty cool place. I can't believe some idiots just left it here for us to take over, and the Romans would then have to live with the knowledge that they allowed that. Yeah, they let the Gauls just move in, pull up a chair, put their feet up in front of a fire, and live in Rome. He can't even think of Dr G 56:55 it very dramatic now, so dramatic. Dr Rad 57:00 And this is where he also highlights some people that you've been talking about. Let's not ignore the fact that Rome has plenty of enemies that are actually quite close by, the Volscians, the Aequians. They've been fighting them for ages. Again, abandoning Rome itself would be just handing them Rome what they've been after for seemingly centuries. At this point that cannot be allowed to happen are the Romans seriously okay with all of these suggestions that Camillus has run through just because they can't be bothered to do some building. It seems insane. Dr G, Dr G 57:38 it does seem relatively insane, but you could also read this as being like the biggest doubling down argument of all time. It's like we've been here, we got to stay here. We've been here, we got to stay here. You know it's okay to cut your losses, Camillus, so you could move to the next hill over. Dr Rad 57:56 Absolutely no, no, no, no, never. Camillus thinks it would be more honorable and a preferable situation overall for the Romans just to go back to their roots living in simple, very old fashioned huts, because at least then they'd be near their family deities. They'd be near all the sacred monuments they wouldn't be. And I quote a nation in exile, which is exactly what they would be if they moved to Vay after all, the Romans had managed to build their city up relatively quickly. Is it really that hard to just do that again. If the Romans, who were their ancestors, could do it, surely, the Romans of his own day, the people that had conquered Veii in the first place, could do it. And let's not forget that the Capitol and the Citadel, they are still in perfect condition, Dr G, thanks to those valiant defenders of Rome. So they have a good starting position, you know, and they have this really important part of the city this kernel preserved. So that's something to give them a bit of hope and inspiration. Dr G 59:10 Surely, I kind of like the idea that Camillus is giving this speech amidst the ruins of Rome, and everybody about him is like, but, buddy, just look at this place. It's been destroyed. Dr Rad 59:23 Well, he's starting, he's really starting to, he's starting to lose me a little bit with this part here. Dr G, don't worry. We are getting somewhat near the end. He then says, Okay, let's say that I allowed this to happen. Okay, that myself and the very conservative patricians said, Okay, let's move to they. Is this going to be the way that the Romans conduct themselves all the time? Is this the way you live your life? Fires, not uncommon. What if somebody didn't watch their fire carefully enough and they caught. Poured on fire, really badly damaged, and Romans all moved there. Are they going to just get up and leave again if he allows them to leave this time? Is it just going to always be on to the next and better thing that hasn't been burnt down, having no real attachment to where they live? Is this really how they want to live their lives? Do they really value just having, you know, a roof over their heads, more than places with actual meaning to their culture, to their people? Camillus himself, he Dr G values the land, the landscape of Rome. These were the things that he actually missed the most when he was in exile in aedea. It wasn't the fancy temples, although they're important because of the gods and all, but he really missed the landscape most of all, and that is something that you cannot transfer. You would miss that in Wow. Dr G 1:01:02 Now, I mean, Camillus is, it turns out, is a romantic and I had no idea, but you know, his love for the landscape, his love for place, it's like he's just stepped out of an early 19th century novel. Dr Rad 1:01:18 Well, this is where I could spoil it a little bit, even though we're so close to the end, and say that Livy's Probably borrowing a little bit from some Greek examples that exist where there are people who give these sorts of speeches about, you know, the beauty of the landscape and, you know, ties to soil and stuff In other sources that would have been available to him at this time. Dr G 1:01:44 This is shocking news. I know Alert, alert. Tell everybody Dr Rad 1:01:49 the fact that he's using his probable education to put this all together. Shocking news, indeed, that's it, Livy. It's over now. He also says the gods of Rome and Rome's ancestors had not just stumbled across this location by accident. It had been obviously deliberately chosen for good reason. It's amazing. Have they not noticed all the natural advantages that come from this particular place, I mean, the Tiber, dr, G, do we need to actually say the Tiber in order to convince these plebeians to do the right thing? It's so easy for transport, and they're not right on the coast. So it's not super easy for, you know, pirates just to come and raid their city. They've got a little bit of protection, and yet, still, the advantage of a river like the Tiber for transport the hills, the healthful Hills all around them. I mean, Rome is just clearly an awesome place. They keep being able to beat the Etruscans, the Volscians, the Aequians, their track record speaks for itself. He also then talks about other important religious moments which really should have already proved that the Romans can't just get up and leave. And this is where I come to the head, Dr, G, and I hope we're talking about the same head here. Dr G 1:03:15 Ooh, well, we're about to find out, aren't we? This is Dr Rad 1:03:19 where he reminds the Romans of the discovery of a human head on the Capitol. Now, was this the head you were referring to? Yes, the head nodding doesn't fly on a podcast. I'm afraid Dr G 1:03:33 I know Yes, so yes, definitely the head that is on the Capitol. So this severed head is found when the foundations for the Capitol line are dug up, and this idea is then translated in Roman understanding in that Rome will be the place that becomes the head of Italy itself. It becomes a symbolic thing. So this is part of an idea that goes back to really archaic Roman times, that this is the spot where the city needs to be. It's not just about the birds that Romulus saw. It's also about the physicality of this place. And that idea is also tied to, again, that idea of the sacred fire of Vesta, where the fire has to be in a certain location the Capitolini Hill, has revealed a severed head, which helps us to understand that the Capitolini is incredibly important and must be looked after at all costs. And it was during the Gallic sack even and really honing in on that idea that physicality is everything to the Roman definition. So it's just reiterating the same point. And Camillus has been doing this in this speech as well. He's really nailing it with all of these details. It's like there's no way we could do these things anywhere else. What could possibly happen? If we leave, it will be a disaster. That's what will happen. Yes, everything about Rome is about here. Dr Rad 1:05:05 Yes. And he, once again, brings up the flame of Vesta in connection to things like the head that was found on the Capitol. Again, it's not something that can just be moved. The Goddess wants it where, if she wants it, he can't just move it around. It's not a candle, guys. So he goes through all these sorts of things, and he and I think he's finally run out of examples, run out of steam. You'll be relieved to know Dr G Camillus speech is finally over. He has convinced them with this plethora of examples of why Rome is the best. Nobody beats it. You can't just move to Veii. So the Roman people agree with him, particularly the points about religion. That's what's really swayed them. Their whole relationship with the state gods, personal gods, it's all very overpowering for them. So he has won the day. I'm sure you're not surprised after the force with which he delivered that argument. Dr G 1:06:01 You were channeling Camillus. But the real Dr Rad 1:06:03 clincher came during a senate meeting. So they were debating things in the curio hostilia and some cohorts of Roman soldiers came back from guard duty. What are they guarding? I have to ask. I mean, it's a city in ruins, the population, I suppose whatever's left all that gold, Dr G 1:06:22 yeah, that pile of wood over there that was burnt. Dr Rad 1:06:25 Yeah, they happened to be traveling through the forum. When they reached the comitium, one of the centurions was heard to ask the standard bearer. So the standards are very important to the Romans. They're not just a marker of, hey, this is this group of soldiers, they come to have, like a sort of spiritual significance for the Romans, so very important, he turns around and asks the standard bearer to place his standard down in that place which he refers to as the best place to remain. The Senate see this as an omen that the gods are trying to tell them where they should live. So they obviously still had, even though Livy says Camillus' speech was so convincing, they're apparently still talking about this point they have the doubt. Dr G 1:07:08 Yeah, there are things to chat about here. It's a debate, yes, so the Dr Rad 1:07:12 Senate come flooding out after they've heard this incidental remark about the best place to remain, and they proclaim right there and then that this is the way they have been shown the way. And all the commoners who are just flocking about, they also join in the celebration, and they're like, yes, yes, this is the way. They're thrilled with the decision that the Senate has made that they're going to stay in Rome, and this is when, in Livy's account, Rome finally starts to be rebuilt. I guess while they've been debating, they've been doing nothing. They've just been living in the ruins. Nothing like animals. Dr G 1:07:53 We can't We can't do anything until we've made a decision. Guys, hold off on the rebuilding. We've got to decide where we're doing that. So don't waste your time. This story also comes up in plutarch's account. So he gives this sense that Camillus gives this rousing speech, although I haven't looked into all of the details of whether he recounted the speech itself, because I was focusing on Diodorus instead of Plutarch here, but he does have the moment where Camillus hands the floor over to the first senator, where it's like, okay, well, that's my speech. How are you going to vote? And it's this guy, Lucius Lucretius, who sees the standard bearer walk past, is given the command to put it in the best place. And that's the thing that turns Lucius vote essentially where he's like, Well, the gods have revealed that sign to us. I'm going with the gods. And that makes that brings all of this together, because Camillus is really emphasizing the divine aspect here, and Rome's connection to place. All of a sudden, the standard, which, as you've mentioned, is a sacred object and does have a ritual significance about it as well, seeing it being placed right outside where the meeting is happening, and having a sense that that's the best place for the standard. And it's like, okay, we all need to do this. And once one guy votes a particular way, there is no secret ballots in Senate voting. Everybody's then openly voting. And usually the weight of the first senator is quite significant, because they're usually the oldest or the most prestigious, and it just flows from there. So Camillus gets the job done. They're going to stay in Rome, absolutely. Dr Rad 1:09:43 And as you say, the first senator, if that's the account that Plutarch goes with, that makes total sense. I mean, that's where Augustus kind of draws some of his influence from, as well. This idea of being the first man to speak, because once you've spoken, and you're the person with the most auctoritus, probably the most experienced, therefore. Or and you're probably an old gent, people are going to bow to the weight of your opinion, because you're obviously someone who's highly respected in the Roman community. His name is not specifically mentioned in my account, but certainly the idea is that Camillus has given a very convincing speech, and they're just wrapping up the details, and then this omen is given. This is where Livy mentions something which most people find hilarious, which is that he says that this is why Rome is very higgledy, piggledy in his own day. He says, Yeah, look, Rome is a bit of a hot mess in my day, and that's because of this. Basically we have the reference to the formal state rebuilding program. Again, very funny, if you think about it, given where we're at in Rome's history, we've got the tiles being provided. The people are told they can just help themselves to whatever stone and wood they need. But in Livy's account, they are given a very tight deadline of just a year. We've got to rebuild this whole city in just a year, guys, because otherwise, this analytic way that Livy's writing just isn't gonna work. We want to move on from this whole scenario. You've got one year and so snappy. Guys keep it snappy. Yeah, it means that the streets become overcrowded. Things aren't necessarily set up in the most logical way. They're not carefully planning out exactly how the city should look. Afterwards, they're just basically grabbing vacant land and being like mine, I'm going to build here. This is my spot. Finders keepers, losers, weepers. And therefore, by the time you get to Livy's day, Rome is a mess. Pretty much no one believes this explanation at all for why Rome is overcrowded or not particularly well planned, it's probably to do with the fact that Rome just expanded in a somewhat haphazard fashion, and people who live in Sydney can appreciate how that might happen to a city, and the influence of, say, the Greeks, with their ideas of City Planning, probably hadn't really reached Rome before. The core of it had been set up in this kind of chaotic way, and yeah, it was just kind of left to develop from there. Dr G 1:12:10 Yeah, it does not ring very persuasively in our source material to be like we told the people that it's a state run rebuilding program, but we didn't actually tell them where they could build. We just said, here's some tiles. Knock yourselves out, and it's been chaos ever since. Now. You would think if it was a state run system, that maybe they'd be more systematic, but apparently not. And I think there is something to be said for the fact that Rome is way too early in its history to have a coherent sense of its own organization, and that's not the sort of thing that the Senate or the elites have ever been particularly across that's a very bureaucratic way to think about city creation. And if we're thinking about examples from Australia, Melbourne is a highly planned city, yes, but Melbourne was also not the city that was started first when Europeans decided to turn up and pretend that Australia was inhabited by nobody, they started in Sydney, and Sydney has a very organic structure to it. A lot of the streets follow the lines of the traditional owners, paths that they used. So we know that it's not following a grid like structure. And certainly we live in a city that does not present any kind of grid most of the time. But Melbourne, for instance, really does. And that has both pros and cons. In terms of both cities, there are some elements of an organically grown city that really work, and there are some that really don't. And Rome is very organic, even today, it is very organic structure about it, if you look at the maps. So Rome never gets over this. And even when it does become more organized under imperial rule, the chaotic aspects are never really going to go anywhere. I think this might be the spot to wrap up this episode. Dr Rad 1:14:08 Now, I think this might be the way to wrap up. I wanted to get through Camila's speech so I can finally put 390 BCE behind me. Put it to bed. Yeah, the one thing I will say before we wrap up is just highlighting, again, how much Livy is probably drawing from other writers in sort of his inspiration of putting this speech together. This is obviously a big set piece for him, because Camillus is his hero. He wants to show how pious Camillus is, and so this speech is a moment to really showcase that, as if his actions don't speak loud enough. So as well as those Greek examples I mentioned which he might be borrowing for parts of the speech there, but people also think he might have been influenced a bit by Cicero in terms of the speech's construction and that sort of thing. And one thing which I did find interesting in the commentary that I was looking at is this idea that the move to ve might have been something. Thing that was perhaps added in a bit later in the traditions around the Gallic sack. It might not have been something that existed from the beginning, even though you'd think they might go together, because obviously the fall of Veii and then the fall of Roma so close together chronologically. But it might have been something that was added in a little bit later. And one of the reasons, perhaps, that Livy goes down the path that he does is that during the late Republic, there was this period called the Social Wars, where there was fighting going on between within Italy, basically. And it was about a whole range of issues, which I won't bother to go into in full detail here. Certainly it was a contentious time where it was people were trying to decide, obviously, who belong, who's going to belong in this system, and who wasn't, and who was getting rights and who wasn't. And in this time period, part of the Roman response to this revolt by other Italians was to really dwell on the significance of the site of Rome itself, to try and emphasize that that was so important. Because, of course, as you can imagine, in a rebellion, the people who were not on their side trying to establish like a rival place, you know, and have a rival center that was going to be disconnected from Rome in their own special place. I guess, if you kind of imagine any civil war, like if you think about the north and the south and the US Civil War or whatever, you can kind of understand how all of a sudden, different places take on different meanings when you've got people who are suddenly divided, who were once living in relative harmony. And so it may be partly some of the traditions that were developed in that time that have somewhat influenced the speech that Livy devises for Camillus in this moment here. Dr G 1:16:50 Very interesting, well, and that is just a really early teaser listeners for the Social Wars, which we will come to in 20 or 30 years? Dr Rad 1:17:01 Yeah, exactly. It happened till the first century. So, yeah, don't, don't even think about it again. I'm just telling you. It was a conflict. It happened in Italy. Dr G 1:17:11 So, but yes, there are, like, relative historical concerns in the Roman imagination about what it means to be Roman and to be in this space. And I think it's quite reasonable that they would influence something like this, largely potentially created speech by Livy. Dr Rad 1:17:29 And there was also apparently a suggestion by one of the Gracchi, I think of doing something with Carthage as well when Rome conquered that so there are influences that are probably coming through Livy's account, because he's writing so much later, but we can't be sure exactly what. But yeah, Dr G 1:17:49 oh, well, this has been a very interesting conversation. Dr Rad 1:17:53 It is you can really see the differences in our accounts coming out in this time period. Because, yeah, all the stuff that you talked about is going to take me another several because this speech, this speech is there. Speaker 1 1:18:07 I mean, yeah, yeah, Dr Rad 1:18:08 Livy said you can't move on. Dr, rad, not yet. I Dr G 1:18:10 mean, Camillus wasn't even in Rome, so. Dr, G, that means Dr Rad 1:18:15 it is time for the partial pick. Dr G 1:18:23 The partial pick, we are going to judge Rome against five criteria in which they could possibly win 10 gold Eagles if they perform very well. And our first category is military clout. Dr Rad 1:18:38 Who This is tricky, because your account does have some military action, yeah, but mine does not. We are Dr G 1:18:45 full of military clout over here. If diodosticulus is to be believed, it's just one battle after another, and Camillus is a blazing glory of victory. Dr Rad 1:18:54 Well, I mean, do we? We went with Livy's account last time and we gave him high points in certain categories because we were believing the account. I'm happy to do the same here, if you would like Excellent. Dr G 1:19:04 Well, Camillus smashed it out of the ballpark, didn't he? Not only did he take, Dr Rad 1:19:09 how long I've waited for you to say this word, Dr G 1:19:12 I mean, he took down the Volscians. He stopped the Aequians from doing some stuff in the South. He stopped the Etruscans from doing something in the North. He got back the gold. It's basically a 10 out of 10. Dr Rad 1:19:26 Let's do it 10 out of 10 for the possibly equally problematic account of Diodorus. Say nothing. Dr G 1:19:36 Say nothing. Our second category Dr Rad 1:19:39 is Diplomacy. I don't think so really. I mean, if we go with your account, it's just warfare. If we go with my account, Camillus is basically talking the whole time, and no one's responding. Dr G 1:19:52 He is, and that's not really diplomacy, because he's just talking to other Romans. I think has to be a zero, dr, G, well, that's that. Okay. Hmm, Expansion, nope. Dr Rad 1:20:02 Well, in your account, I mean, they're retaking a colony, but I when, when was it last? Not theirs? Wait, that doesn't make sense. Dr G 1:20:14 When are they How long have they had this colony? Dr Rad 1:20:16 Yeah, like, how long has this Dr G 1:20:18 been an issue? I don't know. I don't know, and I don't think it's really expanding to take something back, but it's like, this place is like a hot potato, yeah, they're just playing catch up on something that they thought was theirs. Yeah? Okay, so I feel like Dr Rad 1:20:32 that we're gonna give them nothing for it, or we're just gonna give them, like, our point. I suppose we could give them our point. I feel like it matters, you know? I mean, I don't think this is something that was taken by the Gauls, for example. So this is something that they're legitimately retaking, re establishing control over. Yeah, yeah, all right, 1.1 point. Dr G 1:20:53 Okay, Virtus. Dr Rad 1:20:57 I don't think so. Because even though Camillus says some impressive things in your account, there's no like, particular moment where I'd say it's weirdos, it's more just impressive generalship. Yes, there's no detail. Where's the detail Diodorus? Dr G 1:21:11 Yeah, then there's no particular story where Diodorus Siculus goes into detail about a moment that Camillus has in battle. So and in your version of events, he's really just having a bit of a chit chat that goes on for too long. So Dr Rad 1:21:30 I'll have you know, I've worked myself up into Dr G 1:21:32 quite a sweat. I can see you fanning yourself, yeah? Dr Rad 1:21:35 Oh my god, it's so hot in Australia. Guys, it's summer here when we're recording this probably may come out to winter, but just, you know, we are sweating through it. Dr G 1:21:43 Yeah, I'm very shiny on the screen, but yeah, hopefully I sound very calm, cool and collected on the audio. Dr Rad 1:21:53 I actually can feel myself getting dumber as we've gone through this episode, because I'm getting so hot. Dr G 1:21:58 Well, I'd hate to say it's the Camillus rubbing off on you, but Dr Rad 1:22:04 All right, so that's a zero. Then for virtus as well, Dr G 1:22:06 it's a zero, yeah, the final category is the citizen score. Dr Rad 1:22:10 I feel like we have something to work with here. Dr G, I feel like the military victories on your side, that's got to be good for the citizens. And then on my side, they seem happy with Camilius' decision, even though they were all totally prepared to just walk away and go to Veii at the beginning. Dr G 1:22:28 Yeah, certainly in the accounts that I have read as well for this is once the decision comes through that there will be no moving to Veii, everybody just sort of is like, okay, and starts to chip in with the rebuilding process, and doesn't cause much of a stink about it. Dr Rad 1:22:43 Yeah, look, I mean, if you think back to the previous accounts, where we've had this question about they it was controversial. It's not like all plebeians were on the side of going to Veii there definitely was division in the Roman population. So I guess they're just tapping into that. They're only convincing a certain amount of people, the rest of them were already kind of on their side. Yeah. Dr G 1:23:05 So I mean, obviously it's a good time for Roman citizens, in the sense that the Gauls have gone and it seems to be a good time, because regardless of how it has happened, they've either retained the gold or they've gotten back the gold, and they have decided to rebuild, which, I mean, is probably good for citizen morale. I would say Dr Rad 1:23:27 they can rebuild her stronger, faster, exactly. So, yes, I agree with you. I feel like it's going to be fairly high. You know, the matrons are honored as well. That's pretty cool. So I don't know. I mean but, but, but, but they have just lived through a siege, and they are allegedly living in a heap of rubble. Dr G 1:23:47 Well, sure, but like, there's living in a heap of rubble when there's no enemy around, and then there's still being under a siege, and surely the former has got to be better. Dr Rad 1:23:57 Yeah, and look with Camillus back on the scene, people must be happy. So I feel like maybe like a six. Dr G 1:24:04 Yeah, I was gonna say a seven. So I think we're pretty Dr Rad 1:24:08 I could go with seven. I could be persuaded to a seven. All right, all right. Dr, G, that means that the Romans have managed to accrue a grand total of 18 golden eagles, which was not expecting, given that I thought I was pretty much just going to be speechifying at you. Dr G 1:24:26 Look, I enjoyed every moment. It was full of drama and Camillus iterated some points very delightfully. And, you know, there were Vestal Virgins, I can't complain. Dr Rad 1:24:37 Look, if we needed any convincing that Rome is awesome and that we should continue to podcast for the next 50 years so we can tell her history. I'm convinced Camillus has done the job. There is no place for us in the room. Dr G 1:24:53 Yeah, we Yeah. Whenever there is a doubt, we will return to this speech as Camillus once said, Yes. Dr Rad 1:25:00 Yes, there's no place like Rome that might have to be the title of this episode. Dr G 1:25:05 Well, it has been an absolute pleasure, as always. Thank you. Dr G, Dr Rad 1:25:18 Thank you for listening to this episode of the Partial Historians. You can find our sources sound credits and an automated transcript in our show notes. Our music is by Bettina Joy De Guzman. The Partial Historians is part of The Memory Collective, creators and educators dedicated to sharing knowledge that is accessible, contextualized, socially conscious and inclusive to find more from the memory collective head to collective mem.com. You can support us by buying us a coffee on Ko fi. But you can also support our show and help us to produce more engaging content about the ancient world by becoming a Patreon. In return, you receive exclusive early access to our special episodes and ad free content. 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