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Marissa McCourry · Calm Under Fire

• Col. John Boggs: I will welcome back to Calm Under Fire. I'm Colonel John Boggs, the president of Fortitude Consulting. And Fortitude Consulting is a executive leadership and coaching firm. And today we have Marissa McCrory. She's an executive coach and leadership development architect who's worked with tens of thousands of leaders across global organizations. Her focus is simple, but not easy. Helping high performing leaders sharpen how they think, show up and lead when the pressure is real. Whether coaching individuals or building enterprise leadership systems, her work centers on one question. How do you sustain performance without losing yourself in the process? Marissa, welcome and thank you very much for being here today. Marissa McCourry: Thank you. I know we've talked about this before that you are a retired Marine Corps Colonel and I am a Colonel's daughter. So we can be the Colonel and the Colonel's daughter, just not this Colonel's daughter. Col. John Boggs: There we go. Well Marissa, do you mind if we jump right into it? Marissa McCourry: Yeah, let's get into it. Col. John Boggs: Okay, well you work with high performing leaders, who they deliver, these people are really good at what they do, but often it comes at a personal cost. When does that pressure become visible? Marissa McCourry: Yes, a lot of the people that I work with are very senior leaders or high performing individual contributors. And these folks didn't get to where they are without knowing how to manage the optics. So when do you see that pressure happen? When do you see that pressure become visible? I would say the answer is later than you would expect to see it. Because these folks are accustomed to showing up, to performing, to delivering, even under circumstantial pressure and under internal pressure. So oftentimes some of that internal pressure doesn't show. For the pet owners out there, you know, they always say it's hard to be a cat owner because you don't know when they're in pain. The same can be said of a high performing leader. Sometimes you don't know when there's internal struggle or strife happening because they do a pretty good job of guarding that from the external view. Col. John Boggs: Yeah, I like to say that the people I work with, very good at what they do. And I know it's the same with you. They're very good at what they do. And I think it's great. It's that invisible thing. It's that thing. So what's the first signal for you that they're having issues, that they're struggling? Marissa McCourry: Yeah, well, I think the first signal for them that then they convey to me, the first signal for them is mental fatigue, some brain fog, maybe beginning to second guess their own decisions, feeling like they have less patience for those around them, for the situations around them, feeling like they have less presence for those around them, for the situations around them. And those who are really self-aware can kind of identify that and say, here's what's happening internally. And maybe I want to engage with a coach. Maybe I want to talk with somebody about this and see how I can get out of my own way on this. Those who aren't so self-aware, Col. John Boggs: Have you ever worked with the, have you ever worked, go ahead. Uh-huh. Marissa McCourry: you know, over time, they're pretty good at concealing this, but over time it does start to leak. it does start to leak and be visible by the external environment. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: And what that looks like is that lack of patience is seen in their temperament, in their voice, in their tone. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: Sometimes their responses are shorter, purter. Sometimes they avoid harder conversations. They begin operating more reactively. instead of intentionally. And so that's when others begin to notice it and see it externally. Col. John Boggs: Do you find that it's others that are telling them or, because you said self-aware, I love that, because that's the whole point of the exercise is that you've got to be self-aware. But have you run across those who are, it's almost as though they're fighting on being, they hear it, but they don't want to accept it. They don't believe that's what's happening. Have you ever run across that? Marissa McCourry: Well, I think most leaders in pressure filled roles are accustomed to getting feedback and tough feedback. And so most leaders at these levels are receiving pretty candid feedback. So it is often the case where sometimes my clients will say to me, you know, there is some things that are going noticed by my team. My team is telling me more of this or my My leader is telling me some of that. And sometimes it's just kind of a deep dissatisfaction with the way work is going. I have a lot of folks that say I'm really successful on paper. And in my mind, I don't feel that. In my mind, sometimes I feel like I am not quite sure why I have a seat at the table, or I'm not sure if I'm earning my seat at the table, or I'm not sure that I'm keeping up with some of my peers or I'm not sure that I'm keeping up with the changing environment. So sometimes some of this self-awareness comes about quite frankly through self-doubt and that's when folks sometimes will reach out for another perspective through a leadership coach. Col. John Boggs: When they reach out, the hidden pressures are finally, it's a bit much. Let me let me turn this just a little bit have have you ever run across the leader who they're new in the position and They know they need they know they need help right up front. This is the self-aware person. I need help And I'm new here, and I'm not gonna let this thing go off the rails I'm gonna go get me some help have you have you noticed anything about what I? guess they call it the imposter syndrome, but What is it that they reflect? What is it that they show? I know I need help. I'm not sure what help I need. Marissa McCourry: Yeah, I think people who are new in role are often finding themselves in the position of feeling competent in their function or their skills, the things that brought them into that role, but not always confident in the surrounding water. So it might be that a new newly appointed vice president, maybe they were brought in from the outside and they're finding that, Hey, I'm not sure. what kind of water I'm floating in here. I knew the seawater pretty well at the last place, but I'm in this new place and I'm not sure what the vibes are. I'm not quite sure what the unspoken rules are here. And yeah, I really want to get traction in my first 100 days. I really want to hit the ground running. I really want my time to impact to be as short as possible. so oftentimes executives who are onboarding do work with coaches like us for those. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: those initial days. And although you may walk in the building with as much confidence as anyone else, sometimes when you're the new kid on the block, the seawater feels a little bit of a different temperature. And so that can Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: throw us into an imposter syndrome kind of a phenomenon. The same can happen even with internal promotes, know, someone who is newly promoted to let's say a VP or an SVP level in a large corporate enterprise. may feel like, you know, are they gonna find me out? I'm not sure that I know everything there is to know on day one or day 30, or my gosh, I'm nearing day 100 and I still haven't finished my listening quest or my, I still haven't quite figured this place out. How does work really get done around here at this particular level? What do I need to jettison from the past? What do I need to adopt moving forward into this new role? So that can cause a lot of internal questioning, a lot of internal Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: wrestling, and it can create quite a lot of internal noise. Col. John Boggs: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. can you tell, now you spend a lot of time working with people with these sorts of things and sharpen their thinking and doing, what happens to their thinking quality when the pressure rises like that, when they put themselves under pressure? Marissa McCourry: What happens to their thinking when the pressure rises? Yeah, Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: okay. So, you know, the pressure is real. The weight of responsibility for senior leaders is real. They have the weight of people-based decisions, culture-based decisions, client-based decisions, product-based decisions. They've got responsibility for outcomes. They've got... in large part responsibility for other people's careers and professional lives. And so the responsibility is absolutely real and sometimes it can feel a little invisible to carry this burden without having the ability to release it. Oftentimes what I'm hearing from senior executives is that it's a lonely place. Leadership is not only hard, but it's lonely. And there are very few safe spaces that you can rest that burden, that you can lay down that weight without judgment. You know, lot of folks who are on succession plans and sort of vying for C-suite roles feel like their peers Col. John Boggs: Yeah. Marissa McCourry: are their competition for some of the Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: same roles. So speaking to peers about the weight and the burden and the responsibility and the pressure. may not feel prudent. Sharing that with your own leader may make one feel like their competencies may be called into question. know, C-level executives certainly can't go to the board and share this with them. And many people feel like they have spouses or partners in their home lives who they can talk to about things, but just sort of don't understand the context of what is really happening for them at work. And so it can be a lonely place. when one is under pressure, pressure condenses things, right? Col. John Boggs: Yes, it does. Marissa McCourry: Pressure from the sides, pressure from above, pressure condenses things. So Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: it condenses our time to make decisions. It condenses the expansiveness that we have to give thought and to give perspective to things. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: And so when we have to move faster, we're not always moving more efficiently. Speed doesn't always Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: increase efficiency. And speed simplifies our thinking. Pressure simplifies our thinking. And what simplified thinking looks like is reliance on patterns. reliance on old habits. reliance on Col. John Boggs: Mmm. Marissa McCourry: knee-jerk and default decision-making when we're under pressure, when we're under time pressure. And looking for patterns can be fine when we're sort of in simplistic or even complicated scenarios. Looking for patterns can be really beneficial, and acting on patterns can be really beneficial. and doing that at an expedited rate can be efficient. There's the clear realm of things where following a recipe is easy. There's a step-by-step. And so when we can do that faster, we can follow that recipe faster, we can follow those best practices faster, great. Speed is our friend. Outside of that clear realm, there's another type of situation which is complicated situations. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: Those might also have processes and steps. but maybe there are several consecutive steps or several parallel steps. And so subject matter experts must be brought in for different components. The analogy that I would make is maybe the clear environment is sort of learning the recipe, learning the tools, maybe learning the levers in the cockpit, learning the buttons in the cockpit. And when we move Col. John Boggs: It could. Marissa McCourry: to a complicated environment, it's about, okay, take the plane. up off the runway. We know how the buttons move. We know what the sequential steps are. Now we need to do several of these sequential steps in parallel. We need different subject matter experts as part of Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: complicated process, but it's still a repeatable process. Still Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: a bit of a recipe involved. What leaders these days are finding themselves in is not in clear situations, not even in complicated situations, but in complex. which is Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: sort of the next step beyond that. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: And in those environments, the patterns aren't as obvious and there's not sequential steps. And we're trying to look for patterns Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Marissa McCourry: and we're trying to detect. Actions that would be helpful and so we're experimenting. We're we're putting new and novel thought. and innovative thought into things. This is where speed is not our friend. So in the first Col. John Boggs: Okay. Marissa McCourry: two, speed is our friend because we're moving through patterns and the faster and more efficient we can do that, great. In the complex environment, we need to slow down and we need to make time for expansive thought, multiple perspectives so that we can see what kind of experiments might we want. What are some safe to fail experiments that we can run? Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: What are some test and learn? kind of experiments. So, you know, a complex environment is one where the same pattern doesn't, Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: following the same pattern time and time again doesn't guarantee the same results. So for instance, if we're flying a plane, we know if I pull these levers in the sequence, if I obey what traffic control says, you know, I'm going to have a successful takeoff and a successful landing. In a complex environment, we don't know that. Flying a plane is less complex than something like parenting. Going to the moon in the space shuttle is less complex than parenting by these definitions. Col. John Boggs: Hahaha. Marissa McCourry: Because there's a repeatable process and there's patterns that we can expect. In the complex world, there is no guarantee that following the same pattern is going to yield the same results. And so we really Col. John Boggs: Ooh. Marissa McCourry: have to try experimentation. And Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: that's where leaders need to use some expansive thought and really take the time. And then there's yet a fourth realm of situations that leaders find themselves in, and that is chaotic. That's the chaotic environment. And by the way, this is not the world according to Marissa, these five Cs, clear, complicated, complex, and chaotic. This is something called the Kenevan model. which Dave Snowden coined, and it's a model for understanding complexity. And the fourth most nutty one is the chaotic environment, which means that there's no rhyme and reason. There's no relationship between cause and effect. And in that environment, leaders have no best practice. They have no good practice. They have no experimental practice. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: The goal for leadership in that realm is to calm the storm and stabilize things. And so that is where we advise leaders act first and adapt later instead of the other way around. So action is what's needed in order to stabilize a chaotic environment. and we stabilize it hopefully so that we can take it back down one notch into that Col. John Boggs: huh. Marissa McCourry: complex environment where we can experiment. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: So when you say, what does pressure do to thinking? It compacts time and it compacts our ability to think, which is sometimes helpful when we're in the really predictable environment, the clear, the complicated, but when we cross over, in Dave Snowden's model into this unpredictable world of complexity and chaos, speed is not our friend. And so we do need to carve out time to not have compressed thinking and compressed decision-making. Col. John Boggs: Wow. And you use this model in your coaching? Marissa McCourry: I do, I use it in my coaching and it can sometimes be helpful when we look at a situation to say which of these four realms am I falling in? Which of these four realms does this particular reorg fall in or does this particular marketplace shakeup fall Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: in? And when we can do a little bit of diagnostic and sort of say like, okay, it falls into the complex realm. or it falls into the complicated realm. Okay, well that helps us know what sort of actions to take. So if we know that this is a space where I need to rely on not best practice, but good practice, then I can call in some SMEs and pull those levers for aid in decision making or for data in decision making. But if we do a little diagnosis and we say, this is really over here in the complex or the chaotic environment, then Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: it's really about the leader stabilizing the system so that experiments can be run and then see what patterns emerge from that. Yeah, so I think that's Col. John Boggs: Okay. Marissa McCourry: it in coaching. Col. John Boggs: Does emotional intelligence play in what you do? Marissa McCourry: absolutely. Absolutely. You know, you know this as well as I do. Leaders with higher EQ are more effective and Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: they garner more followership. leaders who have more of a handle on their own emotional intelligence can navigate their own emotional data better. and navigate the emotional data that other people bring to the table better. So oftentimes in any of these environments, in the clear and the complicated and the complex and the chaotic in any of them, our emotions can run away with us. And we as leaders need to be able to self-regulate. We need to be able to be a bit introspective, be a bit self-aware so that we can self-regulate. in order to respond instead of react. Reacting almost always gets us in trouble. Col. John Boggs: Yes, isn't it? my, my. Well, what has working with so many leaders, I mean, you've worked with plenty, what have working with so many leaders, what has that taught you yourself about leadership? Marissa McCourry: Leadership very rarely has to do with title, doesn't it? Col. John Boggs: Aha. Marissa McCourry: Hahaha very rarely has to do with title. Leadership is much more internal than it is external. And I'm sure you would agree that you have seen leaders who excel at all levels of the leadership pipeline, at all levels of title. And you've probably seen Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: leaders at high levels who do not, right? In spite of credentials or title. Col. John Boggs: Yes. Marissa McCourry: Yeah. Col. John Boggs: Yes, yes, I like to say leadership is a verb. It's not a noun. It's not a title. It's action. Marissa McCourry: Hmm. Col. John Boggs: It's action. Where has the arrogant leader? Now I'm kind of zeroing in on something here. Where has the arrogant leader surfaced? What do you do with them? Marissa McCourry: You chopped up just a second there, but I think I made out what you said. Where have I encountered an arrogant leader or where, when does Col. John Boggs: Yes, whereas the arrogant leader reared their head and you've got to work with them. You've got to get them to become self-aware. You've got to get them to work in the clear, complicated, complex and chaotic. But the arrogant leader knows everything and they're not willing to share. They're not willing to share that they really, you know, behind their eyeballs, they know. that they have some issues that they want to work on. But they're just too arrogant to. claim it. Marissa McCourry: Hmm. That's interesting question. I think most of the senior leaders that I work with don't fall into that category. Most of them actually espouse. lower confidence than you would expect at their levels. And I think it has something to do with the old adage that the older I get, the less I know, right? Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: The more times around the block you've experienced life, the more at bats you've had, you may be more skilled in hitting the ball, but it also tells you, there's so much more to hitting this ball. There's so much more nuance here. There's so many more metrics. There's so many more elements to the perfect swing. And so most Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: of the senior leaders that I work with understand that there's no possible way that they can know it all. if I've ever encountered arrogant leaders, I would probably have to say that that's at the lower realm of leadership, where Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: folks don't know what they don't know. And they don't know how difficult it is. And maybe that's at the first turn of leadership when we move from being an individual contributor to being a first time leader. Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: And you sort of think, I've had good bosses before, I've had bad bosses before, I'm gonna knock this out of the park, you know, and then you get your first team. Then you get your first team and now you're leading someone who used to be your peer or you're leading someone who also applied for the role that you're now in. Col. John Boggs: OOOO Marissa McCourry: And it's the old Mike Tyson quote that everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face, right? So Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: you can be a know-it-all leader and an arrogant leader until you're presented with your first leadership challenge. What do you think? When do you encounter arrogance in leadership? Col. John Boggs: Yeah. that, well, I'm going to tell you, Marissa, that was a question that was really intended for people who are listening to this, because there's a lot of leaders out there. Well, let me, I'm going to rephrase that. There are leaders out there who don't believe that coaching could do any, you know, they don't need a coach. It's not, I'm good. I know it all. I'm so good. My confidence level is 11 out of a scale of 1 to 10. But in the silent moments, in those silent moments, those arrogant leaders actually do realize that they have some soft spots. They have some soft spots. what I found is, and I think you've done it very well, I think you've done it beautifully here, you talked about clear, complicated, complex, chaos, chaotic. You talked about the environment that they work in. You talked about it. And hopefully this is resonating with some people out there who think they don't need a coach. But there's someone like yourself out here who understands, who's worked with enough people, who understands what it takes to really become a great leader. And it's... It's not that you're an arrogant leader, you're a great leader because people will follow you, people believe in you, they trust in you. And the Marissa McCourry: Yeah. Col. John Boggs: arrogant leader can probably look around at five o'clock and see there's no one following them even to the parking lot. Marissa McCourry: Well, I tell you, another piece of coaching that I do is speech coaching. Once upon a time, used Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: to be in an environment, I worked about 10 or 12 years in something called corporate theater. And I used to work with leaders on a literal stage, on a big stage Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: with a live audience in front of them, sometimes 800 people, sometimes 3000 people. And I would work with these leaders on how to use teleprompter, how to... their bodies on a big 60 foot Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: stage where they see IMAG, know, image magnification. Their head is 30 feet tall on the other side of the stage. There's media in the room, this sort of thing. And inevitably, the leaders who needed the speech coaching the most were the ones who said, I don't need it. I'm good. I'll just do a quick rehearsal. I'll get up on stage. I'll be fine. And then they weren't. And the folks who said, my goodness, I'll take all the help you can give me. Those were the folks who usually didn't need as much help. So Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: it's interesting, you know, when you sort of speak about like the arrogant leader who thinks that they don't need assistance or help, sometimes that's a smokescreen for a lack of confidence. I'll Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: also say that coaching is an interesting industry in that the word coach and coaching means so many things to different people. And Most folks know, think they know what coaching is because everyone's Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: had a tennis coach, a softball coach, a debate coach, a karate coach, a dance coach, a gymnastics coach, or their kid had one, or you know, the track coach. And so folks think, I know what coaching is. That person tells me what to do. They tell me how to win. They tell me what the rules are. They discipline Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: me. They say drop and give me 20. You know, they give me tough love when I need it. They support me sometimes, but they really, they sort of tell me how to do it. And why would I need a coach to tell me what to do? That coach doesn't know my world. They don't know my role. They don't know my industry. How could Marissa work with me? I'm in the construction industry. She's never worked in the construction industry. Why would I need her? And so I think it's Col. John Boggs: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Marissa McCourry: a, it's a misconception of what coaching is because Col. John Boggs: Yes. Marissa McCourry: the type of coaching that you and I do. And the type of coaching that is meant by professional and leadership and executive coaching is one where we do not tell anyone what to do. We don't tell anyone the rules, how Col. John Boggs: That's correct. Marissa McCourry: to win, what to do, drop and give me 20. And so it's really much more about helping them bring out what's already inside of them, helping them bring out what they already know. It's much more about being a non-judgmental partner. for someone where they can have a safe space in place to sort of lay down that responsibility burden to unpack it. And so if, you know, if folks are saying, you know, why in the world would I want to coach? I think it's probably a misunderstanding of what coaching really is. I have a mantra that is everyone deserves a coach. We all need. and deserve good coaching. And one of the things about professional coaches is that we have coaches. We practice what we preach. We have coaches that work with us as well. Col. John Boggs: That's true. That's true. That's true. Marissa, what advice would you give a leader who's, they're achieving results, they're performing well, what advice would you give the leader who's doing okay to, what would you tell them about staying sustainable? Marissa McCourry: Hmm. Well, I would say sustainability is about high performance that doesn't have to come at a cost. So anything that costs your mental well-being or your physical well-being is a cost too high. And it does not have to be a trade-off. You can have consistent and sustainable high performance and really a healthy mental and physical well-being. I'm not sure if it's advice, but it's something to consider and that is leadership's lonely and yet you don't have to go it alone. You don't have to go it alone. Col. John Boggs: is a lonely spot. Marissa, for leaders listening who want to elevate their impact without paying the personal cost we were just talking about here, what's the best way for them to connect with you? Can you tell us a little bit more about your practice and how people can connect with you in the event that they want your leadership, they want your coaching? Marissa McCourry: Sure, sure. My practice is called influence, which is easier to read than it is to say. It's as in Marissa, fluence, or as in my, fluence, influence. And in that practice, I do coaching with leaders of all levels. And I consider everyone to be a leader, everyone, including individual contributors. So leadership is about how we conduct ourselves, not about our title. There are many of us who are formal leaders and there many of us who are informal leaders. And so I work with leaders at all levels. I work with them on things like complexity and navigating ambiguity and emotional intelligence and how do we increase our emotional intelligence and how do we get the most out of our team dynamics and how do we become a leader worth following? what do we do when we feel like we are going through a self-doubt phase? and all kinds of areas that are related to leadership. So, and then as I said, I do speech coaching as well, which is a whole nother of flavor, flavor of ice cream in my ice cream shop. But the easiest way to find me is on LinkedIn. I believe I'm the only Marissa McCurry in the world. So it's M-A-R-I-S-S-A and my last name is M-C-C-O-U-R-R-Y. I think I'm the only one of those on LinkedIn. And also if you Google that, you'll find me. If you Google Marissa McCurry, if you can only remember the first name and you Google leadership coach, Marissa leadership coach, Arizona, that's where I'm based, you'll find me. It'll pop up. If you Google Marissa influence, it will pop up. And so I offer, you know, anyone who's interested in exploring what coaching is and what coaching can be. complimentary call, you know, we just we would explore what what your current challenges are and and see if coaching is is something that is a tool in your toolkit that would be beneficial. Col. John Boggs: Thank you. Marissa, would you mind giving us your email address? Marissa McCourry: Yes, my email is firstname.lastname.gmail.com. So that's pretty easy. And then my website is not so easy to say, but I'm an ICF coach, ICF meaning the International Coaching Federation. And so I'm certified with them. And that has been a multi-year certification process. I tell folks it took just as much time as my master's program did. So I really love my affiliation with ICF. And my website is actually on the ICF website. So my website is ICF, standing for International Coaching Federation, hyphen, not underline, but hyphen, coaching.org slash influence, and then another slash, another forward slash. So ICF hyphen coaching.org slash influence, and then another slash. Not so easy, doesn't roll off the tongue, but. That's where my website is housed. Col. John Boggs: Thank you, Marissa. Thank you very much. Hey, folks, let me go through that one more time. ICF-coaching.org forward slash influence forward slash. Too easy, right? Okay. But Marissa McCourry: you Col. John Boggs: Marissa's exactly right. You can find her on LinkedIn and I do believe she's probably is the only Marissa McCoury you can find out there. But Marissa, thank you so much for being here today. This was really wonderful. I can't thank you enough for this. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Marissa McCourry: Thank you for having me on your show. really enjoy having a conversation about leadership at any and all turns. It's my jam and it's your jam too, I know. So we can talk Col. John Boggs: Yep. Marissa McCourry: about this stuff all day. I love it. Col. John Boggs: All day. Well, hey, to those who are listening, thank you very much for tuning in. And I tell you, you couldn't get a better coach than Marissa. So get out there and look her up. All right, that's it. Out here. Marissa McCourry: Thank you, Tom. Col. John Boggs: Thank you all very much for being here. Talk to you later. Bye now. Marissa McCourry: All right. Col. John Boggs: Alright.