Latest / INSPIRE STORY / #099 _STORY INSPIRE: Decisions that transforman, with David Paulides

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#099 _STORY INSPIRE: Decisions that transforman, with David Paulides · INSPIRE STORY

0:04
Speaker 1: The Joe Rogan Experience.
0:06
Speaker 2: Train by day, Joe Rogan podcast by night, all day. David,
0:12
welcome to the show. Pull on up to the microphone
0:15
to get that sucker up like a fist from your face.
0:19
I first heard about you from that guy, Art Bell,
0:21
the GOAT.
0:24
Speaker 1: The greatest.
0:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was... I used to love listening to his
0:28
show coming home from the comedy store. We'd come home
0:30
at like 1 o'clock in the morning. Coast to coast
0:33
with Art Bell from the kingdom of Nye. It was awesome.
0:37
And that's when I first got turned on to your work.
0:41
So tell everybody you started off in law enforcement.
0:45
Speaker 3: Right.
0:45
Speaker 2: That's your background.
0:46
Speaker 1: Correct.
0:47
Speaker 2: How did you get involved in this mystery of people
0:51
going missing?
0:54
Speaker 1: So I had already written a couple of books. And
0:57
I was at Yosemite National Park doing some research on
1:01
another topic. And two rangers are following me around. And
1:07
I went back to my room that was at the park.
1:12
And about an hour and a half later, one of
1:13
the rangers comes to my room. And he's in plain clothes.
1:16
And he knocks on my door. And he says, hey, Dave,
1:19
I'm Ranger so-and-so. I'm here off duty. I want to
1:21
talk to you about some missing people. I said, come
1:24
on in. So we start talking and he says that
1:27
he knew about me, probably the way he knew about me.
1:31
And he says, I know you're from law enforcement. Somebody
1:34
needs to look into this. About an hour and a
1:37
half later, his partner shows up at the door. And
1:39
they said that they've worked at different parks over the years.
1:43
And while they were working at those parks, there were
1:45
missing people. And he said at the beginning, there was
1:48
a lot of publicity, a lot of people interested, a
1:52
lot of activity. And then with time, within about 10,
1:57
15 days, all of that would end. And he said,
2:01
we got concerned and we did a Freedom of Information
2:04
Act against our own agency to get the reports and
2:07
we couldn't get the reports. And then we did a
2:10
Freedom of Information Act request on other cases and we
2:13
couldn't get the reports. And we got concerned because after
2:17
that initial 10, 14-day period of searching is all over,
2:22
there's nothing else that happens. That's it. And he said,
2:25
somebody ought to look into this because there's a lot
2:28
of people missing and the Park Service doesn't talk about it.
2:32
Speaker 2: Now, what was he assuming? Was he assuming something nefarious
2:35
was going on or was he assuming that it was
2:38
a lack of commitment to finding the bodies? Because you
2:41
got to assume most people after 14 days lost in
2:44
the woods are probably going to die.
2:47
Speaker 1: I think all the above. He thought that there were
2:50
too many people going missing. There wasn't enough follow up
2:53
being done. And nobody seemed to care.
2:58
Speaker 2: So if you were being pragmatic and you weren't like
3:01
diving into mysteries and the stuff that I like, the
3:04
fun stuff, you would say, well, they don't have any resources.
3:08
You know, there's not enough people to go looking. When
3:10
you think about the actual square miles that you would
3:13
have to cover to find a body. And then also
3:16
the reality of predators and all these different animals that
3:19
are going to eat bodies. If a body's there, there's
3:21
not going to be much left. You spent obviously you
3:24
spent time in the woods. Have you ever seen a
3:25
dead mountain lion?
3:28
Speaker 4: No.
3:28
Speaker 2: Me neither.
3:29
Speaker 1: I've never seen a dead bear.
3:33
Speaker 2: I've only seen dead bears because I was hunting. I've
3:37
never seen a dead bear. Well, no, that's not true. No,
3:39
we did find one. But I think it's very rare,
3:44
but that one was recently dead. He was killed by
3:46
another bear. I think most of the time when you
3:49
find dead animals, it's very recent. And if an animal's
3:55
dead and it's left alone in the woods within a
3:58
certain amount of time, something's going to eat it. Everything's
4:00
going to eat it, including the bones. There's almost nothing
4:03
left by the time they get done with it.
4:04
Speaker 1: A hundred percent.
4:05
Speaker 2: Yeah.
4:06
Speaker 1: But one thing I learned from being around rangers in
4:10
all these years now is that there's few things that
4:13
belong to us that we go into the woods with
4:16
that are always going to be there. Namely our shoes,
4:18
belt buckles, belt buckles, leather, anything, um, the rubber waistband
4:26
of your underwear, these kind of things stay forever. A rifle,
4:32
a pistol, a bow. And those things you're going to find.
4:37
But getting back to the point of these guys, there
4:41
were too many people going missing in a short period
4:43
of time that no one seemed to care about. That
4:46
was really their main focus. And somebody ought to look
4:50
into it. Somebody ought to start collecting data, nobody did.
4:56
And maybe somebody from the outside, they're the inside, maybe
5:00
somebody from the outside would have more luck putting this
5:02
all together rather than them. That's kind of the gist
5:05
of it.
5:06
Speaker 2: Well, there's some cases that are just flat out weird.
5:10
Like some cases, like people go missing, they die, animals
5:14
eat them. That's a wrap. That makes sense to me.
5:17
But there's a few cases. And one of them you
5:20
covered was a guy, I believe he was from Canada,
5:23
that went skiing in New York. And he went missing.
5:29
And then he showed up 2,500 miles later in California
5:34
with his ski clothes on. And he didn't know what happened.
5:39
Speaker 1: Yeah. He was a fireman from, I think, Toronto that
5:44
went with a bunch of friends to New York on
5:46
like a weekend ski trip. And the guys were all
5:50
getting together at the end of the day to leave.
5:53
They couldn't find him. He says he wakes up on
5:57
a truck traveling from like Reno to Sacramento.
6:03
Speaker 2: Woke up in the back of a truck?
6:04
Speaker 1: No, sitting in the front seat. And he said that
6:07
he was, as he wakes up, he's talking. It's not
6:11
like he was asleep and woke up. It's like his
6:13
mind suddenly flashed open. Hey, you're alive now. You can
6:16
keep talking. And he goes, but I was talking to
6:18
the driver and we're traveling. The driver drops him off
6:23
at Sacramento airport. He doesn't remember anything, but he remembers
6:27
his home phone number. He calls his wife in Toronto
6:32
and she goes, hey, everyone's searching for you thinking you're
6:35
still at the ski resort. He has all the ski
6:37
clothes on.
6:39
Speaker 2: How many days later?
6:40
Speaker 1: I don't remember. But even he doesn't make sense of it.
6:45
He doesn't know how he got in the truck. The
6:47
truck driver left. Nobody knows who the truck driver was.
6:53
That was kind of the whole story. It wasn't a lot.
6:56
Speaker 2: So he didn't ask the truck driver, hey, where'd you
6:58
pick me up?
6:59
Speaker 1: I think he was embarrassed.
7:02
Speaker 2: Just embarrassed that he was in the truck and doesn't
7:03
remember how he got in there?
7:05
Speaker 1: Yeah.
7:06
Speaker 2: Okay. So he didn't say anything. And did he have
7:09
any memories from skiing to like, did he ever do
7:13
like regressive hypnosis or anything?
7:16
Speaker 1: If he did, it never went public.
7:19
Speaker 3: Hmm.
7:20
Speaker 2: Is that the weirdest one? Oh, no.
7:23
Speaker 1: There's weird ones.
7:23
Speaker 2: What's the weirdest one you heard of?
7:27
Speaker 1: The strangest disappearance story. There's a lot of people that
7:32
disappear that don't have a memory. And if you look
7:36
back and you study missing people, those people historically have
7:41
been abducted. And There's something about that abduction experience where
7:46
they can take away part of your mind.
7:47
Speaker 2: You think alien abduction. That's what you're saying.
7:50
Speaker 1: Alien entity.
7:51
Speaker 2: Something.
7:52
Speaker 1: Some type of foreign.
7:53
Speaker 2: Just want to be clear. We're not talking about like
7:56
a bad person abducting a person.
7:58
Speaker 3: No.
7:58
Speaker 1: We're talking about some kind of entity.
8:00
Speaker 2: Okay.
8:02
Speaker 1: And they take away part of that mind where they
8:06
were probably doing something to you that they don't want
8:08
you to know.
8:09
Speaker 3: Right.
8:10
Speaker 1: And there's a lot of those. There's a whole segment
8:14
of people that I have chronicled that were truck drivers
8:20
who have amnesia, who were found in conditions that were
8:24
very strange. There was a truck driver in the Midwest
8:27
where salt of the earth kind of guy, drove independently,
8:33
wifing a couple of kids. He picks up a load.
8:36
I want to say it was pigs. And his truck
8:40
is found like outside of Indiana on a little two
8:43
lane highway stopped on the side of the road. He's
8:47
not anywhere to be found, but his coat is found
8:50
in a ditch on the other side of the other lane.
8:54
So the sheriff comes out, they do a huge search, flyovers, canines,
8:59
goes on for like four or five days, nothing. Week
9:04
and a half later, his body is found in that
9:07
field in the spot where they had searched all that
9:10
time Impossible to miss. Coroner says he's been dead for
9:16
two weeks. The sheriff can't make sense of that because
9:20
he searched that with dogs and people. That guy should
9:23
have been there. But, Joe, I have 1,500 of those
9:28
cases where canines were brought in, multiple canine teams, multiple searches,
9:35
and people were not found. And the point I try
9:38
to make about this is that it's not that the
9:40
searchers are inept. Because I don't believe that. And I
9:44
don't believe that the canines fail multiple, multiple times because
9:49
I don't believe that can happen. I don't believe they
9:51
were there when they were searching. They were left there
9:54
later on. And so you've been you've into this for
10:00
a long time, right? What was the first case that
10:03
you looked into that got you thinking something weird's going on?
10:08
Probably would have been at Yosemite. And there was a
10:11
girl named Stacy Aris. And she, just weirdly, she grew
10:17
up like five miles from me. I grew up in
10:21
a little city, Cupertino, California. She grew up in Saratoga,
10:24
the next town over. She went with her dad on
10:28
a trip by horse sponsored by a contractor in the
10:33
park at Yosemite. And they were going to ride into
10:35
this place called the High Sierra Camp. Her and her
10:38
dad and five other people. And they get escorted in
10:43
by a cowboy contractor. And they come to these cabins
10:48
And her dad's an older guy. They get to the cabin.
10:52
And she says, hey, dad, I want to go over
10:54
here to the point. I want to take some pictures.
10:56
She brings her camera. And one of the guys, a
10:59
72-year-old guy, is sitting at that point. And she goes,
11:02
I'm going to go right there and sit with him
11:04
and take some pictures. He goes, sure. Dad watches her
11:08
walk out. They sits down. Old, old guy. Barely could
11:11
ride the horse. She's taking pictures. She gets up. And
11:16
down at the bottom of the hill, there's a small lake.
11:19
And surrounding the lake, there's trees. She walks down into
11:23
the trees, presumably to take pictures of the lake, but
11:27
she doesn't come back. Big search. I'm talking about one
11:31
of the biggest searches in Yosemite history. And they find
11:34
the lens cap to her camera inside that path in
11:39
the tree line. They never find her. And That happened
11:47
46 years ago. I filed the Freedom of Information Act
11:51
for that report and all the investigation into it. And
11:54
I get denied.
11:55
Speaker 2: I appealed.
11:56
Speaker 1: I got denied. Finally, a special agent from the Park Service,
12:02
just so people know. The Park Service has uniformed police officers,
12:08
National Park Service police that patrol their parks. And they
12:12
go to the National Law Enforcement Academy. Up above them,
12:16
they have special agents, detectives, and they are doing all
12:22
the follow-up work that the police officers in the field do.
12:25
This case goes to a special agent. There's been nothing
12:30
done on this case in 40 years. The special agent
12:32
calls me. Why do you want the case? I said, well,
12:37
that's an irrelevant question. According to FOIA, you can't ask that.
12:41
And he goes, well, I want to know. I said, well,
12:44
It's been 47 years. I doubt anyone's looked at it.
12:45
Have you looked at it? No, nobody's looked at it.
12:48
I said, well, I'd like a copy of it just
12:50
to understand what happened. He goes, you're never going to
12:54
get the case. This guy's name was Special Agent Yu.
12:57
Why Yu? I said, why? And he says, none of
13:01
your business. You're never going to get it. I said,
13:03
first of all, why talk to me like that? I'm
13:05
prior law enforcement. I'm not being rude. I just want
13:08
to know. He goes, forget it. Drop it. You're never
13:10
going to see it. I said, no, I want that case.
13:14
And he goes, you know, you've never seen any other
13:17
missing person case and you're not going to see this one.
13:20
I said, whoa, I have over 30 missing person cases
13:24
from your agency from around the United States that I
13:27
FOIA before and I've received. You're a liar. You said
13:32
that to me. I said, no, I'm not a liar.
13:35
I don't lie. And this is the truth. And he goes, well,
13:38
you're not getting this one. Anything else you want to know?
13:43
I said, no, I think you've done it. And that
13:46
was it. In that amount of time, I've really found
13:50
out nothing more about the Stacey Harris case. 14-year-old girl disappeared,
13:56
never found. Nobody's ever done anything on the case in
13:58
40 years. I still haven't seen it. Now, I talked
14:02
to Tim Burchett, who you had in here the other day.
14:06
And I explained to him, I want a meeting with Burgum.
14:10
And I want to lay out what I have and
14:12
explain the obstructions.
14:13
Speaker 2: Who's Burgum?
14:14
Speaker 1: The head of the Department of the Interior.
14:15
Speaker 4: Okay.
14:16
Speaker 1: Doug Burgum.
14:16
Speaker 4: Okay.
14:18
Speaker 1: And explain to him the obstructions that are happening in
14:20
his agency. Those are our reports. If nobody's looked at
14:22
it in 40-plus years, what does it matter if I
14:24
have it?
14:25
Speaker 4: Right.
14:25
Speaker 2: The people that were working back then aren't working anymore.
14:28
It's not like anyone's going to get in trouble.
14:30
Speaker 1: No. Half of them are dead.
14:31
Speaker 2: Right.
14:33
Speaker 1: And Tim said, okay, I'll have my people get a
14:37
hold of you. They got a hold of me. They
14:38
said that they called DOI. They said that DOI people said, yeah,
14:42
we'll get a hold of you. I called them three times.
14:44
They won't call me back.
14:45
Speaker 2: So what do you think is going on?
14:52
Speaker 1: So when you look at the totality of, and let's
14:54
just talk about Yosemite. As I dug into it, there's
14:59
probably over 50 people missing in Yosemite as we talk
15:04
right now. When I asked for a list from Yosemite,
15:08
from the Department of the Interior 12 years ago, They
15:10
said they don't have a list. I asked for a
15:13
list of missing people from the entire system in the
15:16
Department of Interior. They said, we don't have a list.
15:19
And I said, well, okay, I've written so many books.
15:23
I'm a printed author. I'm going to ask you to
15:25
put that list together for me. According to the rules,
15:29
I fit that criteria to ask.
15:31
Speaker 2: But they said they don't have a list.
15:33
Speaker 1: Right. But I asked them to put one together.
15:35
Speaker 2: Okay.
15:36
Speaker 1: And they said, we'll get back to you. They said, no,
15:39
you don't qualify. But if you want us to put
15:42
together a list from the entire system, it's going to
15:45
cost you $ 1. 4 million. If you want a list from Yosemite,
15:49
that's going to cost you $ 34, 000. So that got me
15:55
really upset. Over the next two years, I put the
15:58
list together. Joe, the third year, you know what Yosemite did?
16:02
They released a list of missing people from Yosemite. So
16:05
I know I got all the people from Yosemite. I
16:08
wrote about them in my books. They still haven't released
16:10
a List from the entire system.
16:13
Speaker 2: So do you think they released it because you were
16:15
pressuring them? No, it's like you could look at it
16:18
a bunch of different ways. I'm trying to like look
16:21
at it from the skeptics perspective. You'd say, well, this
16:24
is clear. A bunch of people don't want to do
16:25
their job. They're lazy. They don't like this guy coming
16:28
along and asking for information. But you think there's something
16:31
weird going on. So I found on.
16:36
Speaker 3: Their website that was sent to him in 2011.
16:37
Speaker 1: It says that.
16:41
Speaker 3: The appeal was properly invoked because of exemptions 7A. And
16:49
here's– I'll let you read what that is.
16:51
Speaker 2: 7A permits the withholding of records of information compiled for
16:56
law enforcement purposes but only to the extent that the
16:58
production of such law enforcement records or information could reasonably
17:02
be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings. So– They could
17:10
withhold it because you could interfere with enforcement proceedings?
17:14
Speaker 3: 40 years later. Or 30 years later, I guess.
17:17
Speaker 2: That's fucking weird. The exemption is intended to prevent premature
17:20
disclosure of the investigatory materials that might be used in
17:26
law enforcement action. 40 years later?
17:28
Speaker 3: It says the incident is still ongoing. The criminal investigation
17:30
of the incident is still ongoing.
17:32
Speaker 2: 40 years later?
17:33
Speaker 3: What?
17:34
Speaker 4: Okay.
17:36
Speaker 1: Okay.
17:37
Speaker 2: Tinfoil hat firmly placed on your head. What do you
17:40
think is going on?
17:41
Speaker 1: So first of all, missing people investigations are not criminal investigations.
17:46
Speaker 3: Right.
17:47
Speaker 1: There's nothing criminal about disappearing. If it's a criminal investigation
17:51
and there's criminal aspects to it, it shouldn't be a
17:54
missing person case. It ought to be suspicious circumstances investigated
17:58
by a criminal investigator.
18:00
Speaker 4: Right.
18:00
Speaker 1: It has a classification as a missing person. And what
18:04
they're not saying there is what about the other 40
18:06
cases I've already gotten from them that are since that
18:10
that are missing person cases?
18:12
Speaker 3: Right.
18:14
Speaker 2: So that's a little weird, but I could also see
18:17
incompetent people that don't want to work. They don't want
18:20
to do their job. They're like, fuck this guy. I
18:22
don't want to do his work. I don't want to go.
18:24
Why is he asking me for this information? He's just
18:27
a kooky author. I could see that. But like, what
18:31
do you think? might be going on with these people?
18:35
Speaker 1: So when I was in law enforcement, I worked on
18:37
the SWAT team and we had canines assigned to our team. Joe,
18:41
I can't ever remember us looking for someone with a
18:45
dog and the dog didn't find the person.
18:47
Speaker 2: Right.
18:49
Speaker 1: I have 1,200 to 1,500 cases where they bring a
18:53
canine to find a missing person and the dog can't track,
18:57
won't track, or turns around, comes down and sits down
19:00
and is not interested in tracking. That's totally outside the
19:03
behavior of a dog.
19:04
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Meet your match with ZipRecruiter. Isn't that what happened to
20:16
that woman recently that went missing that was a part
20:19
of this whole group of scientists that were involved in
20:22
propulsion research?
20:23
Speaker 1: Reza? Yeah.
20:26
Speaker 2: Same sort of situation, right? She was with her friend.
20:28
They were hiking. They had just talked. The friend was
20:32
ahead of her. And the friend turned around to ask
20:34
her a question. She was gone. They do an investigation.
20:38
They bring in dogs. Can't find anything. The lady's just gone.
20:42
Speaker 1: 100%. You're 100% right. It doesn't make any sense. And
20:48
it fit that 411 criteria that I laid down, which
20:52
is why I did a video about it. Her disappearance
20:56
doesn't make sense.
21:01
Speaker 2: So do you have suspicions? Like, do you think something...
21:06
supernatural is going on? Do you think something extraterrestrial or interdimensional?
21:12
What do you think is involved in these people going missing?
21:19
Speaker 1: First of all, I don't know. In my books, I've
21:22
laid out facts and I let the viewer decide. But
21:25
one thing I did find, because I've written about a
21:28
lot of hunters that have disappeared. And let's say you
21:32
and I go out and we're going to go pig
21:34
hunting in at your friend's farm down the way. And
21:37
you say, hey, Dave, you go that way, and I'll
21:39
go that way, and I'll meet you in an hour. Okay.
21:44
So in my world, I call that point of separation.
21:47
Every time on a missing hunter case, it's at that
21:50
point of separation that something happens. It never happens when
21:53
they're together. It always happens when people are alone. That's
21:57
point number one. Number two is the canine issue. Canine's
22:02
failure to pick up a scent, They bring in professional
22:05
trackers and they can't find tracks. That's not normal. A
22:09
lot of times, say in Alaska, they have some great
22:15
native trackers up there. And they can't find people. And
22:19
every other time they can't. So it's like if you're
22:22
going from A to B, you're going to leave a
22:24
scent and you're going to leave a track. Well, they
22:27
can't find that. And that's not normal. So I made
22:32
a movie called Missing 411 the Hunted. And in that movie,
22:36
there was a case of 12 guys are planting trees
22:41
on the side of a mountain in Washington State. And
22:43
there's a herd of elk at the bottom of the mountain.
22:47
And all of these guys see this classic UFO come
22:51
up the mountain, hover over one elk. The herd scatters,
22:55
but one elk doesn't. It just stands there. And then
22:58
without anything between the UFO and the elk, it picks
23:03
the elk up. And it's gone. The guys all say,
23:07
F this. I'm out of here. The whole group of
23:10
planners leave. And the manager for the company says, whoa, guys,
23:14
hold on. What's going on? So they call MUFON out,
23:18
Mutual UFO Network. They bring some investigators out and they
23:21
interview these guys one by one. And they all say
23:25
the same thing. And they say, what we're afraid of
23:29
is we're next. They just took that elk, but we're next.
23:32
So that's in the movie. Keep that in the back
23:34
of your mind. There's a guy named Carl in Wyoming.
23:39
He's hunting in the Medicine Bow National Forest alone. See
23:45
some elk 100 yards away, lines up with his rifle.
23:49
Speaker 3: Boom.
23:51
Speaker 1: He says, Dave, it's like everything went into slow motion.
23:53
I see the bullet come out the gun about three
23:56
or four feet and it drops to the ground. He says,
24:01
I walked over. And he goes, the elk didn't move.
24:04
And I pick it up, the bullet. I put the
24:06
bullet in my pocket. And then two alien-type entities walk
24:11
up to me. And they engage him in mind speak.
24:16
And what they do is they eventually take him on
24:19
a craft. And they take the elk on the craft.
24:24
And it's like the elk are frozen there in time.
24:28
And they have him march behind a screen. And they said,
24:32
we don't want you. You're going back, mind of mine.
24:35
And he goes, what's going on? He goes, you're going back.
24:39
He says, the next thing I remember is falling 10
24:43
to 15 feet. He's guessing. He hits his shoulder, probably
24:47
displaces it, and he rolls down a hill. They're already
24:51
searching for him because he's missing, his wife, the sheriff.
24:54
They take him back and they take him to a hospital.
24:58
And they're taking x-rays. And he had tuberculosis scars as
25:03
a kid. Those are no longer there. And he had
25:08
other medical issues that are completely cured. The investigators came
25:13
out and the Wyoming Department of Law Enforcement looked at
25:17
that bullet and did an exam on it. And they
25:20
could not figure out what that bullet hit to make
25:22
it deform in the manner that it did. I have
25:26
pictures of it in the movie. It's very odd.
25:29
Speaker 2: See if you can find the pictures online. Of course
25:32
you are.
25:32
Speaker 1: If you go to Tubi, T-U-B-I, Missing 411, The Hunted,
25:36
the movie is there for free. You guys could watch it.
25:39
Speaker 2: Also check out Gearheads Gone Wild. It's my friend's show.
25:43
Speaker 1: Okay, so no tuberculosis, scars, the bullet. So I'm talking
25:50
to Carl, and I said, well, why do you think
25:51
they sent you back? He says, well, I think it's
25:54
because I had a vasectomy. I said, oh, did they
25:58
say anything to you about that?
25:59
Speaker 4: No.
26:01
Speaker 1: Okay. So he was 91 years old when I interviewed him.
26:04
Sharp as a tack. How old was he when this
26:06
encounter happened? I think he was 38, 39. And again,
26:14
this happened in the Medicine Bow National Forest.
26:17
Speaker 2: Where is that?
26:17
Speaker 1: Medicine Bow is directly, I'd say about 75 miles northwest
26:25
of Cheyenne. So at about the same time, the Air
26:30
Force Base in Cheyenne is having a group of cluster
26:35
UFO sightings above the ICBM sites. And that was never
26:41
made public at this time. It was 30, 40, 50
26:45
years later through Robert Hastings and other Air Force personnel
26:50
came out that these documents started to show up. So
26:53
Carl would have never known what was happening there. At
26:57
the same time, these things in Cheyenne were happening. And
27:02
then you think about what's going on in Wyoming that
27:04
would cause this. But really the epiphany to me with
27:07
Carl is there's a lot of people in the woods
27:10
that are found, quote unquote, they fell. They always fall alone.
27:16
And they always fall in places where if you and
27:18
I are in the woods, we're going to be pretty
27:20
careful when we're alone. We're not going to be walking
27:22
off a cliff. We're going to be careful. lot of
27:26
these people are found under very unusual circumstances dead at
27:29
the bottom of an area that you just don't think
27:31
makes sense and they couldn't be tracked so with Carl
27:38
when you think about him being taken a hunter hunting
27:44
elk nobody gets seen nothing's heard so I did a
27:50
circumference around the area where he went and it's in
27:55
the movie There's a group of German hunters. Carl was German.
28:00
German hunters that have disappeared. Nobody else but German that
28:04
have disappeared in that area. And then when you look
28:07
at the scope of what I've done in my work,
28:10
I went backwards and I found there's a lot of
28:13
German people that have been abducted. More than the normal
28:18
population of people. And these German hunters really were the
28:24
opening valve to me that something odd was happening with German.
28:28
Speaker 2: What do you think that is? Why German?
28:30
Speaker 1: I really wish I knew. That's probably outside my pay grade.
28:34
I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of rumors
28:36
about the Germans having associations with aliens.
28:41
Speaker 2: During the Nazi times?
28:42
Speaker 1: Yeah.
28:43
Speaker 3: Right.
28:44
Speaker 2: Well, there's a lot of, like, weird occult stuff going
28:46
on with the Nazis, right? And they were making, like,
28:51
What looked like a UFO. They were constructing these things
28:54
that looked like flying saucers.
28:56
Speaker 1: Right.
28:58
Speaker 2: You know the Travis Walton case?
29:00
Speaker 1: Oh, very well.
29:01
Speaker 2: I have his bobblehead. He came in here. That's another
29:05
guy that went missing in the woods. And it's a
29:07
similar story. You know, he was taken aboard some sort
29:12
of a craft. Multiple witnesses, including people who hated him.
29:16
One guy who he actually got in a fist fight
29:18
with earlier that day. And they all told the same story.
29:21
They all passed polygraph tests. He shows up days later
29:26
with this crazy story that he had been hit by
29:29
a beam of light. They took him aboard this craft,
29:31
fixed him, fixed whatever happened to him and communicated with
29:36
him and then dropped him back off.
29:40
Speaker 1: I know Travis well. In fact, I was doing a
29:42
conference in Phoenix and he brought his son to the
29:46
conference because his son wanted to meet me because a
29:49
lot of my work focused around things that happened to Travis.
29:53
And I think Travis's case is probably not unique. And
29:59
there's probably thousands of people out there that just don't
30:03
want to talk about it. They just want it to
30:05
go away.
30:06
Speaker 2: Because it's too weird and because you feel like a fool.
30:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, that and I think maybe they're afraid that they're
30:12
going to get pigeonholed as what you just said, odd, strange.
30:15
Speaker 2: You're a crazy person.
30:16
Speaker 3: Yeah.
30:16
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the Travis case is very interesting because, I mean,
30:21
this is just– I mean I'm just saying this but–
30:27
Most people who lie, they lie about a lot of stuff.
30:30
They don't just have one crazy lie from the 1970s
30:34
that they keep repeating exactly the same way and have witnesses.
30:40
The whole thing is very strange. Also, the fact that
30:43
he went missing in the woods and then showed up
30:46
multiple days later. There's nothing wrong with him. He's not dehydrated.
30:50
He's not starving to death. He's fine. He's just weirded out.
30:55
And he has this crazy story. And it's not like
30:59
his story is unique either. That's what's very strange. The
31:02
people that have been abducted, they all have very similar stories.
31:06
They have similar stories about medical examinations, being taken aboard
31:10
a craft, things communicating with them telepathically. There's no delusions
31:18
of grandeur, like you're the chosen one, you're unique, you're Neo,
31:22
you're the one we wanted, we came here for you.
31:24
There's nothing kooky like that.
31:26
Speaker 1: It's all.
31:27
Speaker 2: Just they want to know what's going on with the
31:31
human species. And they find a specimen. They do an examination.
31:36
And it sounds completely insane. But we do that. We
31:42
do that with species. We do that with other things.
31:44
We do that with primates. We do that with all
31:47
kinds of different animals that we research. I mean people do.
31:52
There's probably someone doing it right now in the Congo,
31:54
probably looking for some animals, tranquilizing some animal, doing studies
32:00
on it, releasing it back into the wild. We do
32:02
it all the time.
32:05
Speaker 1: One of the things I say at conferences is, what
32:08
if we're the ant farm?
32:09
Speaker 3: Yeah. That took a while to find.
32:11
Speaker 2: So this is the bullet. So this is, thank you, Jamie.
32:17
This is the bullet that this guy shot and it
32:20
hit something right in front of him. It just completely deformed.
32:24
That bullet looks like it hit a wall, like it
32:26
hit like something like a giant plate of steel or something.
32:31
I mean, it's just completely flattened. That's not like a
32:33
bullet that hits an animal. You know, bullets that hit, well,
32:37
could hit bones and stuff and get distorted, but it
32:40
wouldn't be intact like that. That looks like an intact
32:44
bullet that just flattened out hitting something completely immovable.
32:50
Speaker 1: Very weird. One of the things that Carl said that
32:56
they told him is when he got on that craft
32:58
is he said, hey, you have my elk. And they said, yes, Carl.
33:03
They said that we often come down to your earth
33:07
and we take animals and we study them.
33:10
Speaker 4: And.
33:12
Speaker 1: You happen to be one of the people that was
33:14
right there when we were taking that, so we took
33:16
you too. And I've heard this before from other abductees
33:21
that just like you said, we look at and test animals. Apparently,
33:26
they're monitoring the health of our planet by testing animals themselves.
33:33
Speaker 2: So he said they communicated with him telepathically?
33:36
Speaker 4: Yes.
33:37
Speaker 2: What did he say they talked to him about?
33:42
Speaker 1: So the elk.
33:44
Speaker 2: Why are they interested in elk?
33:46
Speaker 1: That's a good question.
33:47
Speaker 2: Because they're cool? Elk are very cool. Pretty cool.
33:52
Speaker 1: Yes, they are. Now, that's an interesting point because there
33:57
are more hunters that are abducted or that disappear hunting
34:02
elk than any other animal. And it's not that there's
34:06
more hunters hunting elk. There's more hunters hunting deer on
34:09
the whole in the United States than But for some reason,
34:13
there's more hunters that disappear hunting elk. And I've said
34:15
this in my books before.
34:17
Speaker 2: Well, as a hunter, one thing that I would say
34:20
is that when you're hunting elk, you're in the backcountry
34:24
for the most part. You're in wild, remote areas with mountains.
34:29
You're in a place with very few people. It's very
34:32
hard to get to them. Whereas deer hunting, a lot
34:35
of it is done on farms. A lot of it
34:37
is done on flatland areas. You know, a lot of
34:39
tree stand hunting. Deer, whitetail deer specifically in America, North America,
34:45
are the most hunted animal. But if you've ever gone
34:48
whitetail hunting, a lot of it is in and around farmland.
34:53
And you never, very rarely at least, you're hunting whitetail
34:57
deer in the mountains, remote mountain ranges. Mule deer, you
35:02
hunt mule deer in remote mountain ranges. But whitetail deer,
35:06
they're they tend to populate around humans and around agriculture.
35:11
So that kind of makes sense. If they want to
35:14
be stealthy, if they're trying to not be detected by
35:18
as many people, you would, you'd probably also, you probably,
35:24
if you were going to abduct someone and be reasonably
35:26
sure that no one was going to see you do it,
35:30
you would probably go where there's very few people and
35:33
just some random guy, who's decided to hike up to 10,000
35:39
feet and chase a herd of elk.
35:42
Speaker 1: Another thing I've heard from Carl is that he was
35:47
told that these entities, whoever they are, have the ability
35:52
to freeze time and space. And remember what I said,
35:56
the elk he was looking at, he said he shot
35:58
and they didn't move. It's like they were frozen. And
36:01
they were frozen in that same position when he got
36:03
on the craft. Time and space being that everything around him,
36:09
nobody could walk in, nobody could walk out. It's like
36:12
the time and space that he and the entity and
36:14
the elk were in were frozen. It's a hard thing
36:19
to grasp, but I've heard this before.
36:22
Speaker 2: It is a hard thing to grasp, but the people
36:24
that speculate on how these advanced species, whatever they are,
36:30
they're able to travel, that there's some sort of manipulation
36:34
of space-time. That it's not as simple as like what
36:38
we do, which is very crude. We do propulsion. We
36:42
burn things and push stuff out the back and it
36:44
makes stuff go forward. Or we have an internal combustion
36:47
engine that does the same thing. It makes explosions inside
36:52
the engine, burns things, pushes the pistons around, forces the transmission,
36:56
and it moves. What these things supposedly do– and again,
37:01
this is all just crazy talk– but What they're able
37:04
to do is manipulate space-time itself and instantaneously travel from
37:10
one place to the next because they have a control
37:14
over the universe in a way that– with us, it's
37:17
like completely theoretical. Like there's this woman that speculates that
37:22
in the future someday with many, many, many advancements and
37:25
who knows how many years, we will be able to
37:28
travel quantumly. Like the way quantum particles are entangled. She
37:33
believes that perhaps the entire universe works that way and
37:37
that everything is connected and that this thing that we have,
37:42
this idea that the distance between stars is far too
37:47
vast for a human to travel because you can't travel
37:49
past the speed of light. And if you did travel
37:52
past the speed of light, it would still take, you know,
37:55
even if you went like two times the speed of light,
37:57
three times the speed of light, it would still take
37:58
thousands and thousands of years. to just get to the
38:02
closest planets outside of our solar system. And she thinks
38:06
that one day, perhaps, if not humans or whatever's coming
38:10
after humans, we'll be able to quantumly travel. And you
38:16
would imagine that would involve some sort of manipulation of
38:19
space and time that we can't quite understand. We're talking
38:26
about it like it's magic. But again, if you were
38:29
talking to someone from the 1400s about a cell phone, hey,
38:33
I can FaceTime my friend in Australia. They'd go, what
38:37
the fuck are you talking about? Well, I pick out
38:40
this device in my pocket that's as thin as a
38:43
few slices of paper. And through that, I can like
38:49
stare at my friend and he can see me and
38:51
I can see him. Like that's magic. You're talking crazy talk.
38:54
There's nothing, just no cord. There's no nothing. Somehow or another,
38:57
there's like, what are you sending that's being received? And
39:01
it comes into HD video with sound and it perfectly
39:06
lines up with the way the person's talking. You hear
39:09
it in real time.
39:10
Speaker 1: That's crazy.
39:11
Speaker 2: That doesn't even make sense. But yeah, we just are
39:13
so accustomed to it that it's normal. Oh, I'm getting
39:15
a FaceTime call from my friend. Oh, hey, what's up, buddy?
39:18
You know, we think it's normal. And then you got
39:21
to imagine if you could just push into the future
39:25
and imagine thousands of years of innovation in technology. Like
39:29
what does that look like? Communication used to be you
39:33
had to shout. Bob's over there 100 yards away. You
39:36
had to put your hands. We're going to the left.
39:39
Now you could just text him or you could call him.
39:44
And the ability to communicate at vast distances– will one
39:51
day be very similar to the way we travel. We
39:54
can travel vast distances instantaneously.
39:59
Speaker 1: Part of the entanglement idea that you talked about, what
40:03
if you're in Austin and I go back to Whitefish, Montana?
40:07
And what if we had the ability to think, hey, Joe,
40:10
I forgot to tell you this when I was on
40:12
your show and I told you by my mind? Now,
40:16
people would say, oh, that's stupid. That's ridiculous. But I've
40:19
talked to people that are way smarter than me that
40:22
say that part of this entanglement is, is that what
40:24
if you're in space and you're on the far side
40:26
of the moon? And what if we all have that
40:29
ability right now to affect others in other places? And
40:33
our thinking and our mind is really more powerful. And
40:37
we are this spider web of entanglement that we don't
40:40
quite understand right now. And let me, where this came
40:44
from is George Knapp been on a show like 30 times.
40:49
He had a guy named Colm Kelleher, who was the
40:51
head of all investigations for Bigelow at Skinwalker Ranch. And
40:56
George said, hey, Dave, Kelleher wants you to come out
40:59
to Las Vegas. He thinks some of the work that
41:03
they're doing at the ranch right now overlaps with your
41:05
work on missing people. So I came out to Las
41:09
Vegas three or four times, met with Kelleher. And we
41:12
talked about just what you're talking about right now, this
41:14
overlapping of understanding consciousness. Because it's much more complex than
41:20
some people are willing or even for us to understand.
41:24
But what if what's happening on Earth right now, whether
41:28
it's abductions, cattle mutilations, UFOs, is really something that is
41:35
so beyond us. We try to think in rational terms. Well,
41:38
they're taking us for our sperm or they're taking us
41:40
for our eggs. What if it's something a lot more
41:44
deep than really we could comprehend right now?
41:48
Speaker 2: Like what? I don't know.
41:52
Speaker 1: I'm asking you, Joe. But his point being that all
41:58
the time they spent almost 20 years at that ranch
42:00
investigating things. And he tells me about this one incident.
42:05
And he says, I've got a physicist up on the
42:07
hill with another researcher. It's two o'clock in the morning.
42:12
They're looking down at the meadow and they see this
42:14
bright light. And this bright light starts to get bigger.
42:19
And if you could tell your guy, he could pick
42:21
it up right now on, if you go to Amazon,
42:25
to the movie American Sasquatch, Man, Myth, or Legend, it's
42:28
my movie, we have it there. And it starts getting bigger.
42:34
And one guy doesn't have night vision. The other guy does.
42:38
And this round thing keeps getting bigger and bigger until
42:42
eventually it's like you're looking down a tube of And
42:45
he says, it's almost three-dimensional because you could see something
42:49
at the far end of the tube. And the physicists
42:53
just hand in the night vision back and they're sharing it. Eventually,
42:56
the tube gets to be about this big that something
43:01
twice the size of you and I could crawl through.
43:05
All of a sudden, they see something crawling down the tube.
43:10
It crawls out. It jumps down onto the land. And
43:15
they see it's so dark, even with night vision, that
43:17
they could just see a silhouette. And it's bipedal, seven
43:22
or eight feet tall, all black in color.
43:26
Speaker 2: Is this it?
43:27
Speaker 3: No.
43:28
Speaker 4: Okay.
43:30
Speaker 3: Well, I don't like it.
43:31
Speaker 2: I don't like what you're saying. Is that the documentary
43:35
you're talking about?
43:36
Speaker 1: No, it's not mine.
43:37
Speaker 2: Something different?
43:38
Speaker 4: Yeah.
43:39
Speaker 2: Sasquatch?
43:39
Speaker 3: American Sasquatch.
43:40
Speaker 2: Man-Myth or Monster?
43:42
Speaker 3: Isn't that what you said?
43:43
Speaker 2: Is that it?
43:43
Speaker 1: That's it, yeah. Okay.
43:46
Speaker 2: So this is your film?
43:48
Speaker 1: That is the film, but that's not what I'm talking about.
43:50
Speaker 2: Where is it in the film? Do you remember?
43:51
Speaker 1: That's near the end, like three-quarters of the way through it.
43:56
It's with my interview with Kelleher, and he's talking about it.
43:59
And this thing, and then it walks away on two feet.
44:05
And when we talk about this, he said, it doesn't
44:09
make any sense to us. You know, did we just
44:11
see a portal open up? and an entity from another
44:16
dimension crawl through into our dimension? And is that the
44:20
access point that they're using? And can they open this
44:23
at certain times and close it at certain times at will?
44:28
And really, that was the first time that I had
44:30
heard this from someone credible that this can happen. And
44:35
if you think about the people at the ranch today,
44:37
they said, well, the amount of energy it takes to
44:40
open a portal so many times greater than an atom bomb,
44:44
that it doesn't make sense that that could be the
44:47
answer to this. Well, maybe their answer to what a
44:49
portal is is different. But what these guys saw doesn't
44:54
make a lot of sense to us.
44:56
Speaker 2: Well, the whole Bigfoot thing doesn't make a lot of sense.
44:58
One of the reasons why the Bigfoot thing doesn't make
45:00
a lot of sense is that Native Americans don't have
45:05
a lot of mythological creatures. It's not like they have
45:08
a ton of Dragons and demons and pixies and wood sprites.
45:13
There's not, but there's over a hundred. Didn't we look
45:17
this up? The, the, the, the name for Sasquatch. There's
45:23
like 50 different names that they have for this one
45:26
thing that they universally described as a bipedal hairy ape
45:32
like creature. That's eight to 10 feet tall. And, There's
45:38
so many sightings of this one thing. It's not like
45:42
people keep talking about different animals. Like I saw an
45:46
elephant that has six legs. No, it's always bipedal hominids.
45:54
It's weird. It's a weird– because like I've never seen
46:00
compelling Bigfoot footage. It all looks bullshit. The Patterson footage
46:04
I think is nonsense. I think it's a guy in
46:06
a monkey suit for sure. I think most of what
46:11
you see in terms of like photographic evidence is nonsense.
46:15
But there's too many stories. There's too many stories for
46:18
me to completely dismiss it. And I've always wondered if
46:24
it's some sort of an interdimensional experience and that this
46:29
thing may be the fact that it's in the woods
46:33
and that they happen under heightened– awareness because you're in
46:40
the woods and you're probably very nervous and freaked out.
46:42
So you're probably in a very bizarre state of mind.
46:46
And all of a sudden you encounter something that makes
46:49
zero sense. And the same thing gets encountered by people
46:54
over and over again. And you could write that off. Now,
46:57
if you're a cynical person or a rational person, which
46:59
I'm neither one of those, you, you could, you could
47:02
write it off and you could say, well, there's an archetype.
47:06
People have talked about this creature. For so long that
47:09
that's what you expect to see. So that's what you
47:11
make yourself see.
47:13
Speaker 1: Maybe.
47:14
Speaker 2: Maybe. Maybe it's a bear that walks on two legs.
47:18
Because we know they do that. Particularly black bears. They
47:21
walk on two legs all the time. I've seen them
47:22
walk on two legs. It's very weird. But they don't
47:27
describe it like a bear. They describe it like an ape.
47:30
They say it has long arms. Like an ape. And
47:34
that it looks at you. And that these things... exist
47:39
in the forest, like deep in the forest where there's
47:41
no people. And then when people go out there, they
47:44
encounter them. And the story is just, it's like the
47:49
UFO abduction story. It's so similar. It's so similar over
47:53
and over again, like a very similar story. And you've
47:57
always got to separate the kooky stories because there's always
48:01
a bunch of crazy people that make things up. There's
48:03
a bunch of people that are probably on psychiatric drugs
48:05
or they're tripping balls on mushrooms or whatever it is.
48:08
There's a bunch of people that see things that maybe
48:10
aren't there at all. But then there's enough of these
48:14
stories where you got to go, man, if just one
48:16
of these is true, one out of 100, and then
48:19
there's thousands of them. Like how– what is going on?
48:25
Speaker 1: Not an ape. It's not a gorilla. If it was,
48:29
we'd have it in the zoo and we don't. It
48:33
walks like a man. Ape and gorillas don't walk like
48:35
a man.
48:36
Speaker 2: Well, Gigantopithecus did, right?
48:38
Speaker 3: No.
48:39
Speaker 2: It didn't?
48:39
Speaker 1: There's no evidence it was bipedal at all.
48:41
Speaker 2: I thought it was the jaw structure.
48:44
Speaker 1: So they have one piece of jaw and a bunch
48:46
of teeth. And there's a lot of theories behind that.
48:50
But there's no evidence it was bipedal.
48:52
Speaker 4: Oh.
48:52
Speaker 1: That's number one. Number two, there's no evidence it's ever
48:56
been in North America.
48:58
Speaker 2: Right. But the sightings that they find of this thing
49:01
are in Alaska and the Pacific Northwest primarily. This is
49:05
where you get a lot of them. And the idea
49:09
would be that when the Bering Land Bridge was around
49:12
before the Ice Age or during the Ice Age, when
49:15
the ocean levels were much lower and there was more
49:18
land exposed. that these things could walk across Asia like
49:22
we know the short-faced bear did. And we also know
49:25
people made it from Siberia into North America.
49:30
Speaker 1: So let's just take Gigantopithecus. That wouldn't be an environment
49:35
it could live in though.
49:38
Speaker 2: That was a jungle animal. Right. Right in Asia.
49:41
Speaker 1: Correct. So let's get back to that.
49:44
Speaker 2: But before you go on, there's also Gigantopithecus, they found
49:50
less than 100 years ago. So these, I believe they
49:55
were anthropologists and they were searching for different bones in
49:58
an apothecary shop in China. And they found a molar
50:02
that was extraordinarily large, like way too large. And it
50:05
was a primate molar. And they were like, what is this?
50:08
And so they took them to where they found it.
50:11
And then as they started digging, they found some more
50:13
bones and some different things. How much stuff have they
50:17
found of Gigantopithecus?
50:19
Speaker 3: Only jaws and teeth.
50:20
Speaker 2: That's it. Now imagine if they never found that. Here's
50:25
the question. If they never found any of that stuff,
50:28
show me what they got.
50:29
Speaker 3: It says what they have here.
50:32
Speaker 2: Okay. We only have jaws and teeth for Gigantopithecus, not pelvis,
50:35
leg bones, or full skeletons. So its exact gait can't
50:38
be observed directly. Researchers infer its posture and locomotion by
50:42
comparing its anatomy and evolutionary relationships with living great apes,
50:46
especially orangutans, which are all quadrupedal and not habitual bipeds.
50:52
So why do they think it's– okay. No, Gigantopithecus is
50:55
not thought to have been bipedal. Scientific consensus is that
50:59
it was a large, mostly quadrupedal ape. So why does
51:02
some people say it's bipedal? Where the idea came from? Okay,
51:06
a minority of researchers and many Bigfoot enthusiasts have proposed
51:10
a bipedal gigantopithecus, often linking it to Sasquatch, but those
51:14
arguments rely on speculative interpretations of jaw shape rather than
51:19
solid post-cranial fossils. These bipedal reconstructions are generally rejected by
51:25
specialists in fossil apes who regard them as highly unlikely
51:28
given current evidence. So Perplexity, our AI sponsor, says no.
51:35
Says Bigfoot's something different. But the thing is, if Gigantopithecus
51:40
was a real thing and all we have is a
51:44
tiny amount of fossilized bones and teeth, how many things
51:50
make fossils? Very few.
51:52
Speaker 1: Very few.
51:53
Speaker 2: So there very well could have been a bipedal ape
51:56
like a human that was much larger. I mean, we
51:59
know at one point in time bipedal hominids, like, you know,
52:03
the early versions of human beings were very hairy and
52:07
some of them were larger than us. We just don't
52:12
have fossils because most things don't leave fossils. Like the
52:15
fossil record is incredibly incomplete, right?
52:18
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
52:19
Speaker 3: Yeah.
52:20
Speaker 1: So, you know, in East Texas, there's a lot of
52:22
Bigfoot sightings.
52:23
Speaker 2: Really?
52:24
Speaker 1: East Texas? East Texas.
52:25
Speaker 2: This episode is brought to you by Visible. Ah, spring
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See visible.com for plan features and network management details. What
53:35
kind of terrain?
53:39
Speaker 1: Mushy, swampy.
53:41
Speaker 2: Okay.
53:43
Speaker 3: Wet.
53:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, right on the border.
53:46
Speaker 2: East Texas.
53:47
Speaker 1: Tennessee.
53:48
Speaker 2: The border of what? Oklahoma?
53:50
Speaker 3: No.
53:51
Speaker 1: Down near the ocean.
53:52
Speaker 2: Oh, okay.
53:54
Speaker 1: So when you talked about– you were talking about Alaska,
53:59
Pacific Northwest, a lot of Bigfoot sightings. A lot of
54:03
Bigfoot sightings in Tennessee too, Kentucky.
54:06
Speaker 2: A lot of moonshine in Kentucky, Tennessee too.
54:08
Speaker 1: Yes.
54:09
Speaker 2: A lot of people smoking crank.
54:11
Speaker 1: Yes. So– After I was a policeman, I had a
54:16
master's degree. I worked technology for a while. I had
54:19
a master's in HR and I ran HR organizations. Did
54:23
that for five, six, seven years. I said I had
54:25
enough and I'm leaving. I had young kids. I was
54:28
going to leave with my family and have fun. Two
54:32
founders of this company, super rich, come to me and
54:34
they say, hey, Dave, we got a job for you.
54:38
At your own space, at your own will. Here's the story.
54:41
When they were younger, they didn't know each other. They
54:44
grew up in different parts. They went up into the
54:47
woods with their families, backpacking, camping, having fun. They get
54:52
up in the middle of the night, take a leak,
54:55
and independently, didn't know each other, they saw a Bigfoot.
55:00
They found each other. They formed this company, made millions
55:04
of dollars. One day they're at lunch, and they start
55:07
talking to each other, and they had the same experience.
55:10
They said, wow, that's freaking bizarre. So let's get to
55:13
the bottom of it. So I'm leaving. They know I
55:16
have an investigative background. They said, hey, we're going to
55:18
hire you. We want you to go find out if
55:20
it's true, false, or a hoax.
55:23
Speaker 2: They hired you to go check to see if Bigfoot
55:26
was real?
55:27
Speaker 1: Flipped the whole bill. They said, you can do it
55:30
at your own pace, own will, we'll pay for everything.
55:33
I said, not interested. They came back to me like
55:36
four or five times. Finally, at the end of the year,
55:38
my wife is divorcing me. I now have only 50% custody.
55:43
I have 50% of my life open to do whatever
55:45
I want. They came at me again. I said, okay,
55:49
I'm going to shorten it down to from what took
55:51
five years to five minutes. Tennessee, Great Smoky Mountain National Park.
55:59
There was a man there named Scott Carpenter. Scott, rest
56:05
his soul, has since died. But he took me into
56:07
an area in the park. And he said, Dave, this
56:11
is the part where I've had all kinds of evidence.
56:14
Speaker 2: What kind of evidence?
56:16
Speaker 1: Footprints. Hair.
56:20
Speaker 2: Hair?
56:20
Speaker 3: Hair.
56:21
Speaker 2: So has he ever had the hair analyzed? Okay.
56:24
Speaker 1: So we start talking about it. How can we get
56:27
a good sample of hair? So I said, you know,
56:29
with Bayer, they take Bayer samples and DNA samples from
56:33
Bayer all the time. Let's try this. Let's take some
56:37
packaging tape, wrap it inside out on the outside of
56:39
a tree. put something at the fork of the tree,
56:44
some kind of food, whatever, honey, something. If they lean
56:49
up against the tree, it's going to pull the hair out,
56:51
which we need the follicle for the DNA. Let's see
56:55
if that works. She says, Brian, we did it. It
56:59
worked in that area. We had tracks now, just so
57:03
you know, and everyone else knows there's hair and fiber
57:06
experts in the world and they testify in superior court
57:09
all the time. Uh, Like out in the lobby, you
57:12
have all these different kinds of animals. If we took
57:14
a hair from one animal and gave it to a
57:15
hair and fiber expert, he could tell you within two
57:18
minutes what animal that came from because every hair looks different.
57:23
So we took those hairs, went to a hair and
57:24
fiber expert, and they said, well, where'd you get that?
57:28
And I go, what do you mean? We've never seen
57:30
that hair before. It's not classified. It doesn't exist.
57:35
Speaker 3: Hmm.
57:36
Speaker 1: Okay. So that means we're onto something. So then I took.
57:39
Speaker 2: Does it have follicle? Can they do a DNA on
57:41
it or is it just hair?
57:42
Speaker 1: They did. Okay. They did. So I called the... I
57:45
was living in California at the time. I called the
57:47
University of California, Davis, the biggest animal lab in the world.
57:52
And they said, what do you got? And I explained,
57:53
they said, Bigfoot, we're not touching it. We don't want
57:55
anything to do with it. I went to University of Texas,
58:01
UC Davis. I went to like six or seven. No
58:03
one would touch it. But then I found a woman...
58:06
that testified in the courts here in Texas as a
58:10
DNA expert. I call her up. Her name is Melba Ketchum. Dr. Ketchum,
58:16
I have this sample here. Would you be willing to
58:19
do DNA analysis on it? Absolutely. It's going to cost
58:22
you so many thousands of dollars. I go, no problem.
58:24
We've got somebody who's going to pay. So she goes, okay,
58:28
let's do one better. Dave, send me the sample. Let
58:30
me look at it first. I'm going to give it
58:31
to my hair and fiber expert. They look at it.
58:35
A hair and fiber expert says, it's nothing we've ever seen.
58:38
So that's good. So she goes, okay, here's what we're
58:42
going to do. Can you get any more samples? I said,
58:45
I have an idea. Let me try. So I go
58:49
on coast to coast. And I laid it out. I said, hey,
58:53
we have these samples. We're looking for hair samples. Don't
58:57
bullshit us because we'll know right away. Send us hair
59:00
samples with everything attached. And we're going to send it
59:05
to a lab. You don't have to pay the bill.
59:08
We got $ 125. valid samples that were not deer, antelope, bear, whatever.
59:17
She goes through the DNA analysis on it. I think
59:20
it cost us $ 400, 000 at the end of the day.
59:23
It's a lot less expensive now. And they all... So...
59:29
Hair will give you mitochondrial DNA from the maternal side,
59:33
but it won't give you fraternal DNA from the father's side.
59:37
That you need nuclear DNA, blood, tissue, saliva. And we
59:44
got some of those. Son of a gun. At the
59:48
end of the day, the DNA comes back 12 to 15,000
59:53
years to the Middle East on the mother's side. Father's
59:58
side It doesn't exist in GenBank. 352 billion base pairs
1:00:03
of DNA does not exist. The father's DNA does not exist.
1:00:09
GenBank says it's impossible. Since that time, other people have
1:00:15
come forward and said, hey, you know, on the elongated skulls,
1:00:20
we've had the same problem. We can't find the fraternal
1:00:22
DNA just like you. That's a guy named L.A. Marzulli
1:00:26
that was doing the research there. And then Ron Moorhead,
1:00:30
who's doing other DNA studies on elongated skulls in South America,
1:00:35
said the same thing. That's odd, Dave. So the maternal,
1:00:42
we understand. The fraternal, we don't. And the DNA, they
1:00:48
did a paper about it. It's online. Having a lot
1:00:53
of people say, oh, you know what? That's BS. It's
1:00:57
it's bad. But nobody else has ever done a test.
1:01:02
And I could get you more hair within two weeks
1:01:03
if we wanted to. Nobody wants to test it.
1:01:07
Speaker 2: I'll test it. What do we have to do?
1:01:09
Speaker 1: The truth is, the truth is, the truth is.
1:01:13
Speaker 2: Jamie, you ready to go? Let's go. Let's get some tape.
1:01:17
The truth is.
1:01:18
Speaker 1: It'll all come back the same. And I believe that
1:01:20
the researchers who have done it, they've gotten the same results.
1:01:24
And so if you say that it. On the fraternal side,
1:01:27
it doesn't exist. On the maternal side, it's showing thousands.
1:01:32
Explain that again. So like I'm Greek. So they could
1:01:38
chase my DNA backwards through time to, I don't know, Greece.
1:01:41
Speaker 2: Right.
1:01:42
Speaker 1: 10, 15,000 years ago. Well, they were able to chase
1:01:45
the maternal side back to the Middle East 12,000 to 15,000 years.
1:01:49
Speaker 2: And what did they say it was?
1:01:52
Speaker 1: That's all they said. But what they're saying is, is that,
1:01:55
and a lot of people have picked up on this,
1:01:57
That has a lot of religious connotations to it.
1:02:02
Speaker 2: Why does it have religious connotations to it?
1:02:04
Speaker 1: Because of the Middle East 12,000 to 15,000 years.
1:02:10
Speaker 2: Right. But why is that religious? It's a part of
1:02:14
the world 12,000 to 15,000 years ago. What gives it
1:02:17
religious connotations other than the fact that that's the origins
1:02:21
of a lot of religions?
1:02:22
Speaker 1: That's it.
1:02:24
Speaker 2: Right, but it's also humans and different animals live there.
1:02:27
Like there's probably deer down there that weren't religious at all.
1:02:30
You know, their DNA tracks back to that too. Specific
1:02:34
results she reported. She claimed 111 samples from 34 North
1:02:37
American sites produced two patterns, human mtDNA and unusual or
1:02:43
novel nuclear sequences that supposedly did not match known animals.
1:02:48
Her interpretation was that About 15,000 years ago, an unknown
1:02:52
hominin male population interbred with modern human females, leading to
1:02:57
a hybrid lineage whose descendants are today's supposed Sasquatch. How
1:03:02
and where it was published did not appear in a normal, established,
1:03:05
peer-reviewed journal. Instead, it was put into an obscure outlet
1:03:09
called De Novo Scientific Journal, which Ketchum herself effectively controlled
1:03:15
to get the paper online. Science reporters and skeptics noted
1:03:19
the absence of transparent peer review, the paywall for self-published paper,
1:03:25
and the lack of independent labs reproducing her findings. But
1:03:28
did independent labs try to reproduce her findings? That's the question.
1:03:32
Scientific criticism. Geneticists and forensic biologists who examined the data
1:03:38
and methodology have repeatedly pointed to contamination and poor lab practice.
1:03:44
as the most likely explanation for her hybrid sequences. Analysis
1:03:48
noted that the mtDNA being 100% modern human is exactly
1:03:52
what you would expect from contaminated or human origin samples.
1:03:57
and that the odd nuclear sequences are consistent with mixed DNA,
1:04:01
sequencing errors, or low-quality data, not a new species. Current
1:04:06
status of her DNA claims. No major genetics lab or
1:04:11
independent research group has replicated Ketchum's results or confirmed a
1:04:15
novel hominin genome corresponding to Bigfoot. In mainstream science, her
1:04:20
study is treated as an example of flawed junk science,
1:04:24
interesting to Bigfoot enthusiasts, but offering no accepted evidence that
1:04:29
Sasquatch exists. But here's the thing. Did anybody else try
1:04:33
to test those things?
1:04:36
Speaker 1: No. And let me explain. That argument they just used,
1:04:41
they're talking to a bunch of idiots. So when they
1:04:43
say it's contaminated, so let's say I contaminated the sample. Right. Well, Joe,
1:04:50
my dad was Russian. The contaminated sample would show on
1:04:55
the fraternal side, Russian. Right. It wouldn't show nothing.
1:04:59
Speaker 2: Right.
1:05:00
Speaker 1: That's why that argument makes no sense.
1:05:03
Speaker 2: Well, I'm not a geneticist, so I don't know if
1:05:04
it makes sense. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Like
1:05:07
if you could say, oh, this is why, you know,
1:05:09
if you had someone who understood DNA and contamination and
1:05:13
the whole process, they could maybe explain it in a
1:05:15
better way.
1:05:16
Speaker 1: So what.
1:05:19
Speaker 2: The idea that humans interbred with things is not a
1:05:22
new idea. I read something recently. I actually watched a
1:05:27
YouTube video and then read an article. I think we
1:05:30
talked about this. I'm pretty sure we did. Where they
1:05:33
believe that Neanderthal– they used to think that Neanderthal was
1:05:37
a subspecies, like a different version of humans and that
1:05:41
they interbred with us. There's a group of people that
1:05:45
now are speculating that Neanderthal was the result of humans
1:05:51
breeding with another ancient hominid and that that created Neanderthal.
1:05:58
So it's not that we interbred with Neanderthal but that
1:06:02
humans actually created Neanderthal by breeding with this other hominid.
1:06:08
Speaker 1: So– There's only one country in the world that ever
1:06:11
took this topic seriously.
1:06:13
Speaker 2: Which country?
1:06:14
Speaker 1: Russia. They took their science academy and took the five
1:06:19
top scientists. This happened 40 years ago. And they started
1:06:22
studying what was called Almasty, the same as our Bigfoot. Okay.
1:06:28
And I'm not bullshitting you. This is 100% true. Two
1:06:32
of their scientists came to the U.S. I met one
1:06:35
of them at a conference in Colorado. seven or eight
1:06:39
years ago. And I walk into the room and he's
1:06:44
holding both of my books as I walk in. And
1:06:47
he says, Dave, you're the only guy to tell the
1:06:49
truth out of everybody out here. What you're saying about
1:06:52
the DNA, what you're saying about the lineage is 100% fact.
1:06:57
It's what we found. And we know that they aren't
1:07:01
any kind of ape or gorilla. It's a human hybrid
1:07:06
that people don't understand.
1:07:10
Speaker 2: So did the Russians think that it exists currently?
1:07:12
Speaker 1: 100%.
1:07:14
Speaker 2: So how are they hiding?
1:07:15
Speaker 1: How are they hiding? Yeah. So if you think about,
1:07:19
we don't even have the ability to do something with
1:07:22
a DNA like they, like whatever this is.
1:07:25
Speaker 2: You mean making a hybrid?
1:07:27
Speaker 4: Right.
1:07:27
Speaker 1: Okay. So something far greater than us has learned to
1:07:33
manipulate DNA. And if you think that Bigfoot is interdimensional,
1:07:40
then wherever that came from probably makes a whole lot
1:07:46
more sense scientifically than something organically made here. And therein
1:07:52
lies the reason that we haven't found a body. It
1:07:57
can move in and out like it did through that
1:07:59
tube at Skinwalker Ranch. And there's footage in our movie
1:08:05
where Of what appears to be a Bigfoot evaporating into nothingness.
1:08:11
Speaker 2: What footage is this?
1:08:13
Speaker 1: Filmed by Scott Carpenter.
1:08:14
Speaker 2: What is it called? What's the same one that we
1:08:17
were just talking about?
1:08:17
Speaker 1: American Sasquatch.
1:08:18
Speaker 2: Can we see that footage? Where is that in the film?
1:08:22
Speaker 1: It's during my interview with Scott.
1:08:25
Speaker 2: And so who took this footage?
1:08:26
Speaker 1: Scott.
1:08:28
Speaker 2: And what year was this taken?
1:08:33
Speaker 1: Sometime in the last 10 years. Okay.
1:08:36
Speaker 2: And it shows something evaporating like that. There's it looks
1:08:40
like a Bigfoot evaporating into nothing.
1:08:44
Speaker 1: What you see is something kind of like smokiness looking
1:08:49
down a trail. And then it slowly evolves to look
1:08:53
like something that you and I would call a Bigfoot.
1:08:56
Speaker 3: Okay.
1:09:00
Speaker 2: So what you're saying is that we're not dealing with
1:09:05
a standard biological organism. We're dealing with something that's probably
1:09:11
the product of some advanced species. And that they've created
1:09:16
this thing. And this thing has the ability... To move
1:09:21
in ways and appear and reappear in ways that don't
1:09:25
make any sense to us.
1:09:27
Speaker 1: Correct.
1:09:28
Speaker 2: Well, that would make sense if it was true. And again,
1:09:32
putting that fucking tinfoil hat on tight right now. That
1:09:37
would make sense if you think about how many sightings
1:09:39
there are and that there are no bones and there's
1:09:42
no body. No one's found anything. There's nothing. There has
1:09:45
been footprints. The footprints are weird. So I'd like to
1:09:49
dismiss the footprints like, oh, come on. Somebody just like
1:09:52
made a fake footprint. The problem is there's dermal ridges
1:09:55
on these footprints. Some of them exhibit what's very similar
1:09:59
to fingerprints. And that's very strange. And these are going
1:10:05
back decades. So super hard to reproduce something like that.
1:10:09
And someone you would have I mean, you'd have to
1:10:12
be a very, very advanced person. And have some sort
1:10:17
of incredible ability to manipulate material science just to be
1:10:22
able to create something that recreates a dermal ridge and
1:10:29
then use it and make footprints with it that are
1:10:32
similar to what like a creature would make. It was
1:10:36
very heavy moving to the ground and pressing down on
1:10:41
moist ground or mud and leaving footprints that have fingerprints
1:10:45
in it. It's weird because these are not– it's not
1:10:49
something like– I weigh like 205 pounds or something like that.
1:10:52
Like it's not like that. It's like something that weighs
1:10:55
like 700 pounds, like deep into the ground. It's weird.
1:11:01
Speaker 1: Abnormally heavy.
1:11:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, abnormally heavy, large feet. But again, no bones, no nothing.
1:11:08
And the only DNA, it's like– it's disputed. But of
1:11:13
course people are going to dispute everything. No one is
1:11:14
going to look at it and go, this is definitely
1:11:16
not human. They're going to go, well, who did this?
1:11:19
How did she do it? Oh, this is a lab
1:11:23
that's like not doing it well and they're publishing in
1:11:27
some journal behind a paywall. This is nonsense. But then
1:11:31
you have to think, well, OK, but are any other
1:11:33
reputable labs– these reputable labs, are they interested in doing
1:11:38
this work? Have they done the work? Have they taken
1:11:40
the same stuff and done it through the exact same
1:11:42
process but not found the same results that she had
1:11:45
or is there no other studies? It seems like there's
1:11:47
no other legitimate studies of the same DNA.
1:11:51
Speaker 1: Dr. Ketchum took that DNA to four certified labs. One
1:11:56
of them was the University of Texas. And all of
1:11:59
those labs got the same result. She extracted it. They
1:12:05
did the analysis. She did the comparison at GenBank.
1:12:08
Speaker 2: And she did this all herself or she had other
1:12:11
scientists do it?
1:12:12
Speaker 1: So she wrote a white paper and six different PhDs
1:12:15
wrote it. The slam job there, I think it's interesting
1:12:21
because have you heard of an organization called BFRO?
1:12:25
Speaker 4: No.
1:12:26
Speaker 1: Biggest organization in the United States for Bigfoot sightings.
1:12:29
Speaker 2: Oh, okay. Bigfoot Research Organization. Yeah. Yeah. From finding Bigfoot.
1:12:34
Speaker 4: Right. Right.
1:12:35
Speaker 1: So a man named Wally Hersham was their benefactor. He
1:12:40
gave them millions of dollars over the years. And they
1:12:43
had one job, find DNA.
1:12:46
Speaker 3: Okay.
1:12:46
Speaker 1: 10, 15 years, they said they couldn't find it. We
1:12:51
found it in less than a year. Wally came over
1:12:56
when we had the DNA and looked at the results,
1:12:59
met with Dr. Ketchum, said, I am completely done. You
1:13:03
guys have proven to me exactly what it is. I
1:13:05
now know what it is. Pulled all of his funding
1:13:09
at that point. He was out of the Bigfoot world.
1:13:12
And he goes, you guys did what nobody else could do.
1:13:16
Speaker 2: How come there's no good camera trap photos? You know,
1:13:20
like there's a lot of trail cameras out there that
1:13:22
hunters use. How come there's no good trail cam photos?
1:13:26
Do you think the idea is that these things know
1:13:28
that cameras are there?
1:13:32
Speaker 1: So I think they have that ability to look in
1:13:34
the infrared range and they just stay away.
1:13:38
Speaker 2: Well, if they are from somewhere else and, you know,
1:13:43
we're assuming they're primitive because they're covered in hair. But
1:13:48
what if they have some sort of psychic ability or
1:13:53
some sort of intellect beyond what we would attach to
1:13:58
an ape and they understand what cameras are?
1:14:02
Speaker 1: So do you know what the hitchhiker effect is?
1:14:04
Speaker 4: No.
1:14:06
Speaker 1: So at Skinwalker Ranch, the investigators coming onto that ranch,
1:14:10
when they left and they went home, they took those
1:14:13
entities home with them. And the entities didn't ever bother
1:14:16
the scientists. They bothered the relatives, the wives. They did
1:14:21
spooky things. They'd come around, show up in the home,
1:14:24
chase the kids around in the yard.
1:14:26
Speaker 2: What kind of entities?
1:14:28
Speaker 1: A variety of things. Sometimes orbs, sometimes silhouettes of people.
1:14:34
But things that never happened before happened after the scientists
1:14:37
went home. And they talked about it on their show.
1:14:40
And it's happened a lot. One of the things that
1:14:43
happens to people that study Bigfoot is they have the
1:14:47
same hitchhiker effect. It doesn't matter where you go. For
1:14:51
some reason, and you were talking about, you know, maybe
1:14:54
they read your mind or something. There's some kind of
1:14:57
effect there that they'll follow you wherever you go. As
1:15:01
an example, I live kind of in the middle of
1:15:02
nowhere and there's big woods behind my house. And I
1:15:08
was walking behind the house one day, one track, middle
1:15:11
of a muddy trail. No other tracks anyplace else. 17 inches.
1:15:16
Just one track. I can't tell you how many times
1:15:20
other friends of mine and researchers have had the exact
1:15:23
same thing happen. In the movie, I interviewed, I think,
1:15:26
seven or eight researchers, all the best ones. They all
1:15:30
say this has happened to them. It's that hitchhiker effect
1:15:33
that they talk about at Skinwalker Ranch, which goes to
1:15:36
the point of it being something extra-dimensional.
1:15:40
Speaker 2: I went to Skinwalker Ranch with my friend Duncan a
1:15:42
few years back. I was doing this show for the
1:15:45
Sci-Fi Channel called Joe Rogan Questions Everything and one of
1:15:48
the things we did was we went to Skinwalker Ranch
1:15:50
and we talked to a bunch of people there and
1:15:54
some of them were just clearly full of shit but
1:15:57
there was this one guy who was not and he
1:16:01
didn't have a lot of stories but he said there
1:16:04
was this one experience that he had where these orbs
1:16:08
made it into his house and this orb flew through
1:16:11
his wall, was inside of his home, and it seemed
1:16:14
like it was interacting with him. And then it was
1:16:18
like paused, frozen in front of him, and then took off.
1:16:21
This guy seemed like a completely rational, regular guy. Like
1:16:28
I said, he didn't have a bunch of crazy stories
1:16:30
about other things. I forget what his job was, but
1:16:32
it was a regular job, regular guy. Seemed totally normal
1:16:36
to talk to. But he said he had this one
1:16:38
inexplicable experience. He said it was very strange. He said
1:16:42
this thing just flew into his home. He said it
1:16:45
was like– I think he said it was like the
1:16:47
size of a softball, maybe a little larger. And it
1:16:50
seemed like it was interacting with him.
1:16:53
Speaker 1: So one of the people I interviewed for the movie
1:16:56
was a former Navajo ranger. You ever hear of those?
1:16:59
Speaker 3: Yes.
1:17:01
Speaker 1: So they went to the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center,
1:17:04
full law enforcement credentials, super smart guy. He comes back.
1:17:08
He works 10, 15 years for the Navajo Rangers. One day,
1:17:12
the lieutenant calls him in, he and his partner. They say,
1:17:15
you got a new assignment. Oh, what's that? You're going
1:17:18
to do nothing but investigate Bigfoot and UFOs.
1:17:23
Speaker 2: I'd be like, fuck, yeah.
1:17:24
Speaker 1: He goes, wait a minute.
1:17:27
Speaker 2: I don't want to.
1:17:28
Speaker 1: I didn't sign up for that. He goes, I don't care.
1:17:31
That's your new job. Because you guys are the two
1:17:33
most credible people I have. You're going to go do that.
1:17:36
Speaker 2: Well, because why? They had some sort of a suspicion?
1:17:38
Speaker 1: Well, they had tons of calls about Bigfoot being on
1:17:41
the property, UFOs showing up over property, all the above.
1:17:46
And they wanted some expertise in that team. So he
1:17:51
and his friend start investigating Bigfoot. And all of the
1:17:55
things I've just told you happened to him and his
1:17:58
partner over those years. They'd get a call at a
1:18:03
lady's house that She just saw Bigfoot on her back porch.
1:18:06
All the dogs are afraid. They're hiding under the porch.
1:18:09
He goes there and he finds a track in a
1:18:12
straight line. One thing about Bigfoot, as you and I
1:18:15
would walk down a street, we walk staggeredly. Bigfoot walks
1:18:19
one foot right in front of the other. And that's
1:18:22
how you'll know it's real. It doesn't walk staggered like
1:18:25
you and I.
1:18:26
Speaker 2: It walks like it's doing a DUI checkpoint. Exactly.
1:18:30
Speaker 1: Yes. Like it's walking on a balance beam. And he
1:18:37
talked about the stride was four or five feet. He goes,
1:18:40
I couldn't do it. And just like you were saying
1:18:43
that the track was so deep in the soil, they
1:18:47
couldn't match it. He said it had to have been hundreds.
1:18:50
and hundreds of pounds. That's just one thing. But over
1:18:54
the years, they started to make this association between Bigfoot
1:18:59
and UFOs. They did this all on their own. And
1:19:03
then he talked about the Native American belief. Well, Native
1:19:06
Americans believe that they came from the stars. Each tribe does.
1:19:11
And just like you said, all of the tribes have
1:19:13
a different name for these.
1:19:14
Speaker 3: Yeah.
1:19:15
Speaker 1: But nobody, no tribe believes it's an animal.
1:19:19
Speaker 2: Really?
1:19:20
Speaker 1: No tribe believes it's an animal.
1:19:22
Speaker 2: What do they think it is?
1:19:23
Speaker 1: It's a human. It's an offshoot. There's a very.
1:19:27
Speaker 2: They think it came from the stars?
1:19:29
Speaker 1: They came from the stars. There's a very, very famous
1:19:32
set of stories coming out of the Pacific Northwest out
1:19:35
of the 1920s and 30s where.
1:19:39
A tribe of Native Americans hear that there's some people
1:19:43
walking down a trail through the woods. Bigfoot walks in
1:19:46
front of them, starts throwing rocks at them, doesn't hit them,
1:19:49
throwing rocks at them. The people go home. They tell
1:19:53
the sheriff, hey, these huge hairy things are throwing rocks
1:19:56
at us. Sheriff says, oh, that's BS. We'll go out there.
1:20:00
We'll kill them all. The tribe hears about this. In general,
1:20:05
it makes no sense. They have a press conference. Swear
1:20:08
as I'm talking to you. And three tribes in the
1:20:11
Pacific Northwest have a press conference, and it's in the
1:20:14
Oregonian newspaper on the front page. When I found it,
1:20:18
I said, how come no other Bigfoot researchers ever talked
1:20:21
about this?
1:20:21
Speaker 3: Why?
1:20:22
Speaker 1: Because it doesn't support their belief system that it's an–
1:20:25
they think it's an ape or a gorilla. And here
1:20:27
are the tribes saying it's a tribe of people. We've
1:20:31
traded with them at times. What? They trade things with
1:20:35
us at times.
1:20:36
Speaker 2: What do they give you back?
1:20:37
Speaker 1: Sometimes they will give them ornaments or certain kinds of
1:20:41
foods that they have a tough time getting, and they
1:20:43
will come back and they will give them certain kinds
1:20:45
of food, animals, etc. But in this story on the
1:20:51
front page of the Oregonian, they talk about this. And
1:20:54
when I've gone to the Pacific Northwest, and Joe, there's
1:20:57
not one tribe up there that believes they're an animal.
1:21:01
None of them do. And they're the ones that have
1:21:04
lived with them and handed these stories down over the ages.
1:21:08
Speaker 2: And they all think that they come from somewhere else?
1:21:11
Speaker 1: Yes.
1:21:12
Speaker 2: How do they think they got here? What's their, like,
1:21:17
origin story?
1:21:19
Speaker 1: So there's a man who owned a herd of cattle
1:21:23
and was wintering them on the Oregon-California border up north
1:21:28
of Crescent City. And every year he'd done this. This
1:21:33
one year, this is another article in the paper, this
1:21:36
one year, They winter with the Native Americans there. He
1:21:42
sees this Native American walking with a tray of food.
1:21:46
Doesn't think much of it the first day. Second day,
1:21:48
he sees the guy walk up into the mountains up
1:21:50
to this cliff area. Guy comes back and he says, hey,
1:21:53
what's that for? He goes, I can't talk to you
1:21:55
about that. So he goes straight to the chief. He
1:21:58
owns all the cattle. He's working with the Native Americans.
1:22:01
He goes to the chief. The chief goes, we've got
1:22:04
Harry Moon up there. Harry Moon. He goes, yeah, this
1:22:09
thing came and it comes every couple months. There's usually
1:22:12
two of them that come together. He goes, what do
1:22:15
you mean? He says, we see a moon come out
1:22:18
of the sky. It's very bright. It comes down near
1:22:21
the land. And these two jump out of the moon.
1:22:26
And they're friendly. They get along with us. And they
1:22:29
stay there. And we feed them sometimes. So that was
1:22:33
in like 1885 newspaper magazine. And you think about that story,
1:22:39
how else would they describe an orb, say?
1:22:42
Speaker 2: Right.
1:22:43
Speaker 1: There's no other way to describe it back then.
1:22:44
Speaker 2: Right.
1:22:46
Speaker 1: It comes down, these things jump out of it, and
1:22:49
they run into the woods. And the Native Americans have
1:22:52
been dealing with them for all these years. That's really
1:22:56
the story.
1:22:58
Speaker 3: Wow.
1:23:00
Speaker 2: Now, the rational part of me, of course, wants to
1:23:02
call bullshit, but The part that's willing to speculate, again,
1:23:08
if so many people are having this very similar experience
1:23:13
with this tall, hairy, ape-like thing in the woods, you
1:23:19
got to wonder, like, why is it the same thing? Like,
1:23:22
why is it over and over again? And why do
1:23:25
Native Americans have so many different names for this? And again,
1:23:28
they don't have a bunch of mythical animals. It's not
1:23:31
like they have tons of these, like, weird things that
1:23:34
no one's ever seen before. Dragons and No. Just one thing.
1:23:39
Speaker 1: Well, they do have these things called little people. Have
1:23:42
you heard of those?
1:23:43
Speaker 2: What are those?
1:23:45
Speaker 1: That's very odd. Something that kind of looks like you
1:23:48
and me, but they're only about three feet tall. And
1:23:52
they look like miniature, kind of like dwarves.
1:23:55
Speaker 2: Well, people have those experiences when they do mushrooms. Do
1:23:59
you know that there's a specific mushroom that when you
1:24:02
take it, everyone sees little tiny people?
1:24:05
Speaker 1: I didn't know that.
1:24:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is there was a recent article about this.
1:24:09
You can find that, Jamie. There's one very specific type
1:24:15
of hallucinogenic mushroom where when you take it universally, everyone
1:24:20
experiences little tiny people like little like, you know, elves
1:24:25
from ancient stories. I mean, what do you think?
1:24:29
Speaker 3: Why?
1:24:29
Speaker 2: Why is that so common? Like, what is that? They
1:24:33
saw them on their dishes when eating the mushrooms that
1:24:36
make people hallucinate dozens of tiny humans. Now we're saying hallucinate,
1:24:42
but we don't, if everyone's seeing the same exact vision,
1:24:47
that's very strange. Every year, doctors at a hospital in
1:24:51
the Yunnan province of China brace themselves for an influx
1:24:55
of people with an unusual complaint. The patients come in
1:24:58
with strikingly odd symptoms. Visions of pint-sized elf-like figures marching
1:25:05
under doors, crawling up wells, and clinging to furniture. The
1:25:09
hospital treats hundreds of these cases every year. All share
1:25:13
a common culprit. I don't know how to say this.
1:25:16
La Mao... La Mao... Azi... Asiatica? Asiatica?
1:25:25
Speaker 3: Oh.
1:25:26
Speaker 2: Okay, Asiatica, duh. Lamao, whatever it is. L-A-N-M-A-O-A. Asiatica, a
1:25:36
type of mushroom that forms symbiotic relationships with the pine
1:25:39
trees in nearby forests and is locally popular food known
1:25:42
for its savory umami pack flavor. In Yunnan, L-Asiatica is
1:25:49
sold in markets. It appears on restaurant menus and is
1:25:53
served at home during peak mushroom season. Between June and August.
1:25:57
One must be careful to cook it thoroughly, though. Otherwise,
1:26:02
the hallucinations will set in. Or, don't cook it at all, pussy.
1:26:06
Speaker 1: Come on.
1:26:07
Speaker 2: Don't you want to see the elves? Why would you
1:26:09
cook it? Outside of Yunnan and a couple other places,
1:26:13
the strange mushroom is largely an enigma. There are many
1:26:17
accounts of the existence of this psychedelic mushroom and many
1:26:20
people who looked for it, but they never found the species,
1:26:24
says Juliana Ferchi, a mycologist and the founder and executive
1:26:30
of the Fungi Federation, a nonprofit group dedicated to discovering, documenting,
1:26:35
and conserving fungi. Uh, This person, Dom Naur, is on
1:26:43
a quest to solve the decades-old mystery about this fungi
1:26:46
species and identify the unknown compound responsible for its unusually
1:26:51
similar hallucinations as well as what it can potentially teach
1:26:56
us about the human brain. You know, the thing is, like,
1:27:01
is it teaching us something about the human brain or
1:27:03
is it allowing you to see something that's actually there
1:27:05
all the time? What's at the bottom of that? Lilliputian?
1:27:09
Speaker 3: I was going to show you. Oh. When I typed
1:27:11
it into Perplexity, there's at least one type. The Choctaw
1:27:16
have something.
1:27:17
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:27:17
Speaker 2: It says, many indigenous nations have their own name for
1:27:20
little people. And the English phrase is just a loose
1:27:23
umbrella term. Each language has specific words. It usually means
1:27:27
something like little people, dwarves, or forest people. The Cherokee
1:27:31
have it. What's that word? Yunwe Sunsdai. Um, usually translated
1:27:41
as little people, Choctaw. Um, they have another crazy word, uh,
1:27:46
little people and forest dwelling type called Kaui Anukasha or
1:27:53
forest dweller. Chicksaw have them for little people, small supernatural beings. Yeah.
1:27:59
There's so many of these things like.
1:28:02
Speaker 3: Medicinal plants, uh.
1:28:04
Speaker 2: Describes a little person who provides corn and medicinal plants. Well, many, many,
1:28:12
many people who have taken mushrooms see little tiny people,
1:28:16
see little elves. And in fact, you know, that is
1:28:20
a core part of the Santa Claus mystery. You know,
1:28:23
Santa Claus, have you ever seen the relationship between Santa
1:28:28
Claus and a mushroom called the Amanita muscaria? Do you
1:28:31
know that whole thing? Yeah. But one of the weird
1:28:33
things about Santa Claus is if you go back and
1:28:36
look at old Christmas art, like Christmas. art from the
1:28:40
turn of the century, all of it has Amanita muscaria
1:28:45
mushrooms in it and elves. It's very weird that you
1:28:49
would connect Christmas with elves and a known hallucinogenic mushroom.
1:28:56
And that these little elves and these big mushrooms are
1:28:58
all together and it's Merry Christmas. See if you can
1:29:01
find some of those old– they're really weird. Because it's
1:29:05
like how did we forget that and how did that
1:29:07
go away? And there's also the way Santa Claus looks himself.
1:29:12
Santa Claus with his red outfit, with his bright red outfit,
1:29:17
with the white cuffs and the white buttons. The mushroom
1:29:21
itself is bright red with white spots on it. Like
1:29:24
look at these. Look how weird that is. Look, Santa
1:29:29
Claus with psychedelic mushrooms.
1:29:32
Speaker 3: Got to be careful a little bit now because we've
1:29:34
talked about it. Some of it has to have been created.
1:29:36
Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, 100%. We've fucked up the whole world.
1:29:38
Speaker 1: That's brand new.
1:29:39
Speaker 2: Is it brand new? That's not vintage. Look at that.
1:29:42
Speaker 3: That looks awesome.
1:29:43
Speaker 2: Are you sure?
1:29:44
Speaker 3: I made it. Yeah, it's on Etsy.
1:29:46
Speaker 2: Yeah, probably. But some of the old ones are real.
1:29:48
The one in the middle is legit. That one's legit
1:29:50
right there that you just put up there. And that
1:29:52
one's from somewhere else. Look at that. How crazy is that?
1:29:56
Speaker 1: I wrote an.
1:29:56
Speaker 2: Article for my website. Santa Claus was a mushroom a
1:29:59
long time ago about this. And I probably fucked up
1:30:03
the whole algorithm. But if you look at these images,
1:30:06
these are ancient images that the one that you had
1:30:10
up there with the foreign language on it, where it
1:30:12
says psychedelic. Yeah, that one. Like, how weird is that?
1:30:15
That these little elves are carrying these giant psychedelic mushrooms
1:30:19
with them. And they're walking off with it. And this
1:30:23
has to do with Christmas? How? Why does Christmas have
1:30:26
to do with psychedelic mushrooms? The question is, are these compounds,
1:30:31
are you hallucinating when you take these compounds? Or is
1:30:34
it opening up your vision to see things that are
1:30:38
there all the time anyway?
1:30:41
Speaker 1: Good question.
1:30:42
Speaker 2: Right. And like how many people have gone and taken
1:30:46
mushrooms in the woods and seen Bigfoot? It's another question.
1:30:50
Like how many people have taken psychedelic compounds that dissolve
1:30:54
the ego, completely put you in a different space in
1:30:59
terms of your head space, and then you're able to
1:31:01
see things perhaps that are there all the time anyway?
1:31:05
The Bigfoot one is so weird because I always want
1:31:07
to dismiss it. The rational part of me wants to go, oh,
1:31:10
shut up. It's all nonsense. I go back and forth
1:31:13
with Bigfoot. And then the other part of me goes,
1:31:15
too many people. Too many people see the same thing.
1:31:19
Too many people have had that. They can't all be
1:31:22
crazy or liars. They can't all be. And if they're not, then, like,
1:31:27
what is that thing? And why is there no dead body? Well,
1:31:32
maybe because it's not the same as we are. Maybe
1:31:36
it comes from somewhere else. And maybe that is the
1:31:41
whole experience, that the whole experience is weird and that
1:31:45
you really can't quantify it. You can't. talk about it
1:31:49
the same way you talk about like, oh, you know,
1:31:52
I know where a sloth lives. You know, it's like,
1:31:54
it's a different kind of a creature.
1:31:57
Speaker 1: So I've been around some people that say they believe
1:32:00
that we're part of a simulation. And part of that
1:32:03
simulation is you get enough coins and you can drop
1:32:08
in a new entity in the game that can screw
1:32:11
with you.
1:32:14
Speaker 2: Oh boy. Yeah. You get the right mushrooms. You see
1:32:16
little people crawling up your chair.
1:32:19
Speaker 1: Or let's see how this guy handles a Bigfoot walking
1:32:22
in front of him.
1:32:23
Speaker 3: Right.
1:32:24
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:32:25
Speaker 1: See how much his blood pressure goes up.
1:32:27
Speaker 2: Right.
1:32:28
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:32:29
Speaker 2: Well, it's also whatever we're doing in this– as a
1:32:35
human being going through this life, you have a certain
1:32:40
understanding of what's real and what's not real and what
1:32:43
to expect and what not to expect based on– your
1:32:47
life experiences based on what everybody else is telling you
1:32:50
about the world around you. And you kind of categorized
1:32:53
everything into what's real and what you, what you're going
1:32:56
to experience walking through this world. But just what we
1:33:01
know about the material world is so bizarre. Just what
1:33:05
we know about subatomic particles, just what we know about
1:33:08
the very nature of matter itself. That's all energy condensed in,
1:33:13
in different weird ways. And that, Most of what atoms
1:33:18
are is empty space and that a particle, like subatomic particle,
1:33:23
can appear and disappear. We don't know where they're going.
1:33:27
They can be both moving. They can be moving and
1:33:31
still at the same time. They can be in a
1:33:33
place of superposition. Like what are we talking about with
1:33:36
just reality itself? Reality itself, the lowest observable, the smallest,
1:33:41
the deepest we can look at it, it's fucking magic.
1:33:45
Like reality itself is magic. And then you have the
1:33:47
weirdness of the observer effect, that when you pay attention
1:33:53
to particles, they behave differently.
1:33:56
Speaker 1: That's right.
1:33:58
Speaker 2: And that there's some sort of research that shows that
1:34:02
somehow or another we can actually affect particles in the past.
1:34:06
Like quantum physicists talk about this, not kooks like me,
1:34:10
but quantum physicists talk about There's some sort of evidence
1:34:15
that the observer effect can affect things in the past. Well,
1:34:20
how far in the past? If it's only a few seconds,
1:34:22
is it a millisecond? Is it limited to that or
1:34:25
is it not? Like is it the whole world flexible?
1:34:29
Is everything malleable? Is everything dependent upon consciousness? And then
1:34:34
what is consciousness? Is it simply what's in between your
1:34:38
ears or are you tuning in to consciousness? And it's
1:34:42
just the limitations of your radio that's making the world
1:34:46
around you shape into the form that you currently see.
1:34:49
And maybe that is why when you add things to
1:34:52
that radio, like psychedelic mushrooms, like the ones that make
1:34:56
you see the little people or the ones that make
1:34:58
you see elves at Santa Claus. You know, I think
1:35:02
we get real arrogant when we talk about what reality is,
1:35:08
especially when we know from our understanding of reality that reality, again,
1:35:13
at its quantum state is essentially insane and impossible. It's magic.
1:35:18
Speaker 1: A friend of mine the other day said, hey, Dave,
1:35:20
why don't you go with me? I'm going to go
1:35:22
do ayahuasca again. He's done it a few times. And
1:35:26
he says, Dave, it'll open up your mind to things
1:35:28
that you just don't understand that are real. And he goes,
1:35:31
I've done it a couple times. I've had replicant seeing
1:35:35
the same thing multiple, multiple times that I know I
1:35:38
could never see without it. Have you ever done it?
1:35:40
Speaker 2: I have not done ayahuasca, but ayahuasca is the orally
1:35:44
active form of DMT, and I've done that.
1:35:46
Speaker 1: Yeah. Is your experience positive?
1:35:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've never had a negative experience. But it is
1:35:54
very strange, and it feels more real than reality itself.
1:35:59
And you are 100% communicating with creatures, some beings, things
1:36:06
that are– they appear to be living geometric patterns. I've
1:36:11
had multiple experiences with jesters, with things that look like
1:36:16
jesters where they're giving me the finger. And they were
1:36:21
basically telling me that I take myself too seriously. They
1:36:24
were like, fuck you. And then I was like, what?
1:36:27
And then I was like, oh, I get it. And
1:36:29
they're like, right. They were like telling me like, yeah, yeah,
1:36:32
you take yourself too seriously. I was like, oh, you're right.
1:36:36
You're right. Like, yeah, you have to be very careful
1:36:39
with the experience because if you're a control freak, if
1:36:41
you can't just let go, you can lose your marbles.
1:36:45
You can really go crazy. And it's not really recommended
1:36:49
to anybody that has a slippery hold on reality already,
1:36:53
like people with psychiatric conditions and people that are already
1:36:56
kind of fucked up. But if you're reasonably stable and
1:37:01
you are calm and rational and you can just let go,
1:37:05
it is a wild experience. It's a wild experience that
1:37:09
should not be illegal and should probably be studied and understood.
1:37:14
What was the guy that we had on recently, Jamie?
1:37:17
The guy who was doing– Andrew Gallimore? How do you
1:37:22
say his name? Who was doing those– they're setting it
1:37:25
up on a country– Where it's legal and they're doing
1:37:30
IV DMT trips that last like five hours. And these people,
1:37:36
they go and they have this experience. And when they
1:37:40
do it, they all encounter similar places, similar beings, and
1:37:47
similar patterns. Like they come back with very similar stories.
1:37:50
Like they're making a map of the territory of whatever
1:37:53
this is that you're doing. And they all have the
1:37:56
exact same way of describing it, which is similar to
1:37:58
the way I described it before I ever heard of
1:38:00
any of this, is that it feels more real than
1:38:03
reality itself. Reality itself seems very dull and very mushy
1:38:11
and not crisp, if that's the way to say it.
1:38:17
Whereas the DMT experience is very vivid. The colors are
1:38:21
insanely bright. The experience that you get by encountering whatever
1:38:26
these creatures seems way more powerful than any kind of
1:38:29
experience that you have in normal everyday consciousness.
1:38:33
Speaker 1: So does that drug open some kind of door or
1:38:36
receiver or transmitter?
1:38:37
Speaker 2: We call it a drug. But the problem with calling
1:38:39
it a drug is the human brain makes it. So
1:38:42
Terence McKenna had a great line. He said, if DMT
1:38:45
is a drug, everyone is holding. Because you got to
1:38:48
make something illegal that's produced by the human body. Like
1:38:52
we know for a fact it's produced in the brain.
1:38:54
We know for a fact that the mind actually makes
1:38:58
this compound, which is the most potent psychedelic compound known
1:39:02
to man. It's very weird when the human mind, the
1:39:05
human brain rather, makes a psychedelic compound that's the most
1:39:10
potent compound known to man. Not just that, but it
1:39:13
exists in thousands of different plants. The problem is when
1:39:18
we eat them, it gets broken down in our gut
1:39:22
by monoamine oxidase. Like there's a bunch of different– like
1:39:26
phalaris grass is very rich in it. The acacia tree
1:39:30
is very rich in it. In fact, there's some scholars
1:39:32
from Jerusalem that believe that the story of Moses in
1:39:37
the burning bush was Moses burning the acacia bush, which
1:39:42
has DMT in it and experiencing God. which completely tracks.
1:39:49
If you think about it, like this is what the
1:39:51
experience feels like. It feels like you're dealing with an
1:39:54
all powerful entity that's filled with love and understanding and
1:39:58
knows you better than you know yourself and gives you
1:40:02
guidelines on how to live life. And that Moses came
1:40:06
back from this experience with these commandments, how to live
1:40:09
life that we all agree today. We look at those commandments.
1:40:12
Like these are very reasonable. Makes a lot of sense.
1:40:16
Speaker 1: So sometimes I'm sitting at my desk and I've got
1:40:18
my dog laying next to me. And the dog's looking
1:40:21
down the hallway at my kitchen. I've got a great
1:40:25
pair of knees. And she's just laying there looking. Then
1:40:30
like one every four or five days, she'll just jump
1:40:33
up at like 10 o'clock at night and start growling
1:40:36
at something down the hall.
1:40:37
Speaker 2: Little people.
1:40:38
Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. She sees something we
1:40:40
don't see. So are they always there? Mm-hmm.
1:40:45
Speaker 2: It's a good question. And what can the animal see
1:40:47
that we can't? Because they definitely see things that we can't.
1:40:50
They experience things. I mean their senses are so different
1:40:52
than ours. We just assume that we both live in
1:40:55
the same world, but we clearly don't. Dogs live in
1:40:58
a different world than us. The world that they experience
1:41:01
is rich with smells and sounds and they hear things
1:41:05
and they smell things that we couldn't even imagine what
1:41:07
they are. Yeah. The weird thing about DMT is that
1:41:13
someone– figured out in the Amazon thousands and thousands of
1:41:18
years ago, no one even knows when, how to make
1:41:22
this plant orally active. So what they did is they
1:41:25
took the leaves of one plant and the roots of
1:41:29
the other. So one of the plants contains dimethyltryptamine and
1:41:33
the other one contains haramine, which is an MAO inhibitor,
1:41:37
monoamine oxidase inhibitor. And this MAO inhibitor allows DMT to
1:41:43
be orally active. Whereas if you just ate that plant,
1:41:46
the monoamine oxidase in your gut would break the plant
1:41:49
down and you would never experience the DMT trip. Like how?
1:41:53
How did they figure out how to do that? And
1:41:55
you ask them, they tell them the plants told them
1:41:57
how to do it.
1:41:59
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right.
1:42:02
Speaker 2: Like what? But when you think about people that were
1:42:05
living in this incredibly rich life filled jungle for thousands
1:42:12
and thousands and thousands of years, And with no contact
1:42:17
with the Western world as we know it today, right?
1:42:21
So this is thousands of years ago. They're living in–
1:42:24
they have this subsistence lifestyle, living with animals and plants
1:42:28
and fish. And they probably are deeply in tuned with
1:42:33
the jungle and deeply in tuned with the wildlife and
1:42:35
the plants in a way that we can't even possibly understand.
1:42:39
And that we've probably dulled all those senses or they've
1:42:42
atrophied to a point. where we just assume that everybody
1:42:49
sees the world the way we do. And I don't
1:42:51
think those people did or do.
1:42:53
Speaker 1: 100%.
1:42:55
Speaker 2: They all talk about experiences with entities from somewhere else too.
1:43:01
Speaker 3: Yes.
1:43:01
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's a very weird world out there. And that's
1:43:06
why when someone tells a story about being abducted, by
1:43:11
a craft from another dimension. It's so easy to just
1:43:14
dismiss them. It's so easy to just throw it all away.
1:43:17
But I mean, look, I was watching Fox News yesterday
1:43:20
where they were talking about the different kinds of entities
1:43:23
that the United States government has encountered.
1:43:25
Speaker 1: Did you see that? I saw it. Have you seen it?
1:43:28
Speaker 2: Did you see that shit, Jamie?
1:43:29
Speaker 3: But I've been waiting to see it. I'll show you
1:43:30
this thing that was part of the movie. He shows
1:43:32
it on this.
1:43:33
Speaker 1: I have it on the screen.
1:43:34
Speaker 3: That's the box, if you will, the transparent box that Carl...
1:43:40
who we talked about earlier, was taken into.
1:43:43
Speaker 2: Oh, Jesus.
1:43:44
Speaker 3: Once he was in there.
1:43:45
Speaker 2: Hold this thought because I've got to pee. We'll come
1:43:46
right back and we'll talk about this box. I've got
1:43:48
to pee real bad. We're back.
1:43:51
Speaker 3: All right.
1:43:52
Speaker 2: So we were at this portal thing.
1:43:54
Speaker 3: I was showing you this guy. So he had this transparent,
1:43:59
which I would say is like, you know, transparent cube.
1:44:02
Speaker 2: This is what he described?
1:44:03
Speaker 3: Probably could have a sphere in it. Yes. So he
1:44:05
said he described that showing up. And... A six-foot-tall figure
1:44:10
came out and didn't tell him to come there, but
1:44:14
said telepathically, come with me. He got in it, and
1:44:17
there he saw his targeted elk frozen in beams of
1:44:21
light alongside five figures.
1:44:24
Speaker 2: Human-like figures that seemed more spectral than alive, stiff, unblinking,
1:44:29
like passengers in stasis.
1:44:32
Speaker 3: And then the ship shifted gears. It took him 163,000
1:44:36
light years away and ended up on a tower on
1:44:39
an alien planet where they fixed all of his ailments.
1:44:43
Speaker 2: A tower on an alien planet under a violet sky.
1:44:47
Speaker 3: Yeah. And then they said like, they're not, you're not suitable.
1:44:50
They don't, we can't use you. Sorry.
1:44:51
Speaker 2: Cause of his, cause he's got no jizz.
1:44:54
Speaker 1: And then he was.
1:44:54
Speaker 3: Found miles away. Sort of just like how, um, Travis
1:44:58
Wallace found. Whoa.
1:45:00
Speaker 2: Hypnosis sessions later revealed more, uh, What's his name? Auso? Iuso?
1:45:07
Speaker 3: That's the, in quotes, alien. That would be the entity.
1:45:10
Speaker 2: Iuso-1. Okay.
1:45:12
Speaker 3: Yeah.
1:45:14
Speaker 2: Kind, we're experimenting on humans and animals possibly for genetic
1:45:17
or dimensional purposes. Carl's truck was found miles away in
1:45:21
impassable terrain embedded in mud with him inside babbling about
1:45:27
lights and voices. In impassable terrain. Yeah.
1:45:31
Speaker 3: Whoa. So there's a bunch of, I'm not sure.
1:45:34
Speaker 2: So his truck was just placed in a place where
1:45:37
it couldn't get to.
1:45:38
Speaker 1: Correct.
1:45:38
Speaker 3: There's a bunch of pictures that– I don't know if–
1:45:41
I'm imagining he drew some of these because in that
1:45:44
video– No, bro.
1:45:44
Speaker 2: Those are photos.
1:45:45
Speaker 3: No.
1:45:46
Speaker 1: That's it.
1:45:46
Speaker 2: He holds up this photo.
1:45:48
Speaker 3: So I think he drew this.
1:45:49
Speaker 2: Right.
1:45:50
Speaker 3: So he's an older man and drew what he remembered.
1:45:52
So a little bit of leeway.
1:45:53
Speaker 2: Oh, so he drew the one there and then someone
1:45:55
did an artist's recreation.
1:45:57
Speaker 3: Oh, look at that weird– Like weird arm, like a
1:45:59
knife for an arm or something.
1:46:00
Speaker 4: Yeah.
1:46:01
Speaker 1: So he said he thought that those were almost robotic.
1:46:06
Speaker 2: Oh, interesting. Well, that kind of makes sense, right? That
1:46:11
eventually being– this is the photos of the bullet. It
1:46:14
kind of makes sense that eventually we would realize like
1:46:18
why would we travel places where we could just make
1:46:20
like an artificial person to do it and report back
1:46:23
to us everything. Why risk a human's life?
1:46:25
Speaker 3: Which is what we're about to do. That's what Elon
1:46:28
is doing.
1:46:28
Speaker 2: To the moon.
1:46:29
Speaker 3: He's going to send the robots up to make the
1:46:31
stuff on the moon way easier than sending people.
1:46:34
Speaker 1: Of course.
1:46:34
Speaker 3: They don't need air.
1:46:36
Speaker 2: That makes sense why he's canceling the Model S and
1:46:40
the X.
1:46:40
Speaker 3: Get to work.
1:46:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, get those Optimus robots because he's transformed some of
1:46:45
his factories. They've stopped the Model S and the Model X,
1:46:49
and they're using it to make these Optimus robots instead,
1:46:52
that factory. And then these robots are going to fly
1:46:55
to the moon.
1:46:55
Speaker 3: So if we had that idea, no one else, like,
1:46:58
you know.
1:46:58
Speaker 1: Of course.
1:46:58
Speaker 3: No one else has had that same thing.
1:47:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course.
1:47:01
Speaker 2: It makes sense. So he got a sense that this
1:47:03
was a robot?
1:47:04
Speaker 3: Yes.
1:47:04
Speaker 2: A lot of people have also said that about the greys,
1:47:06
that they get the sense that they're not really an
1:47:09
actual physical, like, or a biological organism, that there's some
1:47:13
sort of a hybrid thing or some sort of a whatever.
1:47:18
Speaker 1: The thing that got me about that is that if
1:47:20
it was robotic, but it still has the ability to
1:47:23
mind speak?
1:47:24
Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.
1:47:25
Speaker 1: That is really advanced.
1:47:27
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I mean we have to figure out what
1:47:29
consciousness is, right, and what communication is. And if there's
1:47:34
something you could tune– you could have a robot that
1:47:38
could speak out loud. So why can't you have a
1:47:41
robot that transmits? Why couldn't– I mean with sufficient enough technology,
1:47:47
it kind of makes sense. You would have something that
1:47:49
has the ability to transmit into your mind. So do
1:47:52
you think when you're studying all these different people missing
1:47:56
and like do you try to put a percentage on
1:47:59
how many of these people you think just got eaten
1:48:01
by bears and how many of these people you think
1:48:03
are having these kind of experiences?
1:48:05
Speaker 1: So if there's any evidence of animal predation, I don't
1:48:08
even work with them. I just push them out.
1:48:11
Speaker 2: Right.
1:48:11
Speaker 1: Won't even look at the case.
1:48:12
Speaker 2: You're only looking at the cases that are super weird.
1:48:15
Speaker 1: That fit that. No animals can track. Canines can't track.
1:48:18
Speaker 3: Right. Right.
1:48:20
Speaker 1: They bring in a professional tracker. They can't track. There's
1:48:25
a weather issue in relationship to the disappearance. Sometimes the
1:48:30
people are found next to water or amongst a boulder field.
1:48:36
There's another one, Joe. Boulder fields. Now, if you think
1:48:40
about where's the most boulders and granite, it's Yosemite Valley.
1:48:44
And what goes through the middle of Yosemite Valley? Water,
1:48:48
the Merced River. And that area specifically, that's a hard
1:48:53
valley to get lost in. But yet, how do these
1:48:57
people get lost? And we're not talking about people going
1:48:58
into the backcountry. We're talking about people getting lost in
1:49:01
Yosemite Valley that disappear and aren't found. And there's a
1:49:05
couple of cases, probably 10 cases that are just absolutely bizarre.
1:49:10
There's a case that was investigated by Yosemite investigators back
1:49:14
40 years ago as a woman came out and they
1:49:18
found her body so far away from a cliff that
1:49:23
they said she, their words, she was launched. So it's
1:49:31
like if you jumped or you fell, you could only
1:49:33
go so far from the cliff.
1:49:34
Speaker 2: Right.
1:49:35
Speaker 1: She was found too far from the cliff. And they
1:49:38
called it launched, but they couldn't understand how she got
1:49:41
that far.
1:49:43
Speaker 2: Not possible with a gust of wind?
1:49:44
Speaker 3: No.
1:49:46
Speaker 1: How far was she? That was their wording.
1:49:50
Speaker 2: That she had to have been launched. Right.
1:49:53
Speaker 1: And Norm, I've never seen that wording before in any
1:49:58
park service report. They're usually very conservative in the way
1:50:02
they discuss things.
1:50:03
Speaker 2: And so this aligns with this idea that they get dropped. Correct.
1:50:07
Speaker 1: Correct.
1:50:10
Speaker 2: That's very disturbing that aliens would do that to us,
1:50:13
just drop us. Like I would think that if they're
1:50:17
going to abduct you, hey, place me back in my bed.
1:50:20
Be nice.
1:50:21
Speaker 1: So pay attention when the next time you see a
1:50:24
story about somebody being abducted, a lot of times they're
1:50:26
dropped in their bed. They're not placed. They're dropped. Yeah.
1:50:35
Speaker 2: How many of these people that go missing like this
1:50:38
under weird circumstances die versus just disappear forever?
1:50:45
Speaker 1: I would say that it's probably 40 percent, 50 percent
1:50:48
are never found. I would say that maybe half of
1:50:52
that half that's left, 25, 25 split between alive and dead.
1:50:58
But you find out a lot more about the case
1:51:02
if you get the body back. Because the body sometimes
1:51:05
will show things that doesn't make any sense at all.
1:51:08
A lot of times the person will disappear and it's
1:51:12
an 80 degree day. We talk about that point of separation.
1:51:16
You go on this way, I'm going to the right.
1:51:19
And a hundred yards from where I last saw you,
1:51:21
there's a pile of clothes there. And you're thinking, well,
1:51:25
it's 80 degrees out. Why is there a pile of clothes?
1:51:27
His underwear, his socks, his shoes, everything. Pile right there.
1:51:32
He's never found. Where'd he go? Why would he take
1:51:34
all of his clothes off? People would say, well, it's
1:51:40
hypothermia and there's a condition where you take all your
1:51:43
clothes off.
1:51:43
Speaker 2: Not in 80-degree weather.
1:51:45
Speaker 1: Not in 80-degree weather. Not that fast. It doesn't happen.
1:51:49
And so missing clothing, missing shoes are part of this
1:51:52
that don't make any sense. If you're in the woods,
1:51:55
you're on a trail, you're not going to take your
1:51:57
shoes off.
1:52:00
Speaker 2: It's all very weird. Does anybody ever– Have an experience
1:52:05
where they go and they get abducted and then they
1:52:09
ask what happens to some of these people? How many
1:52:12
people do you do this to?
1:52:16
Speaker 1: It must have happened, but I don't know if they've
1:52:17
ever gotten a response from it.
1:52:21
Speaker 2: Has anybody ever asked how many people do you abduct?
1:52:24
How many people have you taken like this?
1:52:27
Speaker 1: I'm sure they've asked, but I'm not sure that they
1:52:29
would have gotten an answer.
1:52:30
Speaker 3: Huh.
1:52:33
Speaker 1: And then you know that there's a theory out there
1:52:35
that there's more than one type or one group taking people.
1:52:39
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, this is the Fox News thing. See if
1:52:42
you could find that Fox News report because it's kind
1:52:44
of wacky. Because watching it on Fox News, you're like,
1:52:48
is Fox News all of a sudden coast to coast
1:52:50
with Art Bell? Like what the hell has happened? Because
1:52:53
they were talking about the reptilians and the Nordics, the greys.
1:52:59
Fox News.
1:53:00
Speaker 1: TV.
1:53:01
Speaker 2: Like regular TV.
1:53:02
Speaker 4: TV.
1:53:03
Speaker 2: Like what is going on here? Is that nonsense? Are
1:53:07
they being fed nonsense or is this disclosure? And are
1:53:11
they slow trickling this out to us to get regular
1:53:16
folks like boomers, get them accustomed to this idea of
1:53:21
there are entities out there?
1:53:23
Speaker 1: What if they're just acclimating you to the reality of
1:53:27
our world? And what if the truth is, is that
1:53:32
there's people around you that are aliens and you don't
1:53:36
even know it.
1:53:38
Speaker 2: I think Elon's a fucking alien. That's the only thing
1:53:40
that makes sense. I think I met a few aliens, definitely.
1:53:44
Joey Diaz might be an alien. There's a few people
1:53:47
that I've met that I'm like, you're not real. There's
1:53:49
no way you're real. But Elon's the top of my list.
1:53:53
He doesn't even make sense. I've met a lot of
1:53:56
people that are smarter than me. I'm not the smartest guy.
1:54:00
But there's only a few people that I've met I'm like, okay,
1:54:02
we're not even the same thing. Okay, let's hear this.
1:54:06
This is with Dan from Age of Disclosure.
1:54:09
Speaker 4: People I interviewed in my film, senior intelligence officials, went
1:54:13
on the record saying that there have been dozens of
1:54:16
crashed craft of non-human origin over the years, and elements
1:54:20
of our government have recovered those crashes. And they've gotten
1:54:24
out of that technology of non-human origin and, in some cases,
1:54:28
non-human bodies that were on these craft. A number of
1:54:32
people in my film go on the record saying that
1:54:34
the bodies were not all the same type, meaning there
1:54:37
were multiple species.
1:54:38
Speaker 1: Were the bodies alive or were they dead?
1:54:44
Speaker 4: The people in my film talked about events where they
1:54:48
were dead bodies, they were deceased bodies.
1:54:50
Speaker 1: OK.
1:54:51
Speaker 3: And there's a lot of speculation about the amount of
1:54:56
UFO information we've been given on this first tranche.
1:55:00
Speaker 1: We expected more. We know there is more.
1:55:03
Speaker 2: I've never used that word before.
1:55:05
Speaker 3: Tranche.
1:55:06
Speaker 2: Have you ever used that word?
1:55:10
Speaker 3: Yeah.
1:55:10
Speaker 4: So the president gave his directive in middle of February.
1:55:13
Essentially instructing all federal agencies to declassify evidence of non-human
1:55:17
intelligent life and UAP. What happened after that is the
1:55:21
White House had to go get that evidence out of
1:55:24
the hands of all these federal agencies. And they all,
1:55:27
for the most part, pushed back. The people who have
1:55:29
gatekept this information for 80 years, they don't want to
1:55:33
share it. They've gotten a lot of power and control back.
1:55:37
Speaker 3: Over the years.
1:55:38
Speaker 4: And it's just frankly not human nature for people to
1:55:40
want to give up power and control. So there's a
1:55:43
tug of war happening behind the scenes. There are a
1:55:46
number of other reasons guiding their desire to keep this secret,
1:55:50
including a general belief that the public can't handle the truth.
1:55:54
I would argue the public can't handle the truth. I
1:55:55
think my film shows that. People aren't watching it and
1:55:59
jumping out of windows.
1:56:00
Speaker 3: They're curious and they want to learn more.
1:56:02
Speaker 1: There's also a.
1:56:03
Speaker 4: General feeling that— a concern that They can't tell the American
1:56:08
public what they know and don't know without also telling
1:56:10
our adversaries and giving them some sort of advantage. But
1:56:15
I think that that's– Is that good?
1:56:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's good. Go back to that one weird one
1:56:19
in the beginning, the black and white one that looked
1:56:21
like a star. That looked like– That's been debunked I think.
1:56:25
Is it?
1:56:25
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:56:25
Speaker 2: Oh, how dare they? That one?
1:56:27
Speaker 3: Yeah.
1:56:28
Speaker 2: That's debunked?
1:56:28
Speaker 4: Yeah.
1:56:29
Speaker 2: But this is one of the more recent ones that
1:56:31
was released in this immense dump of information. How has
1:56:35
it been debunked? I'm going to debunk the debunkers. Fuck off.
1:56:41
That thing's awesome. I want that thing to be real. Yeah,
1:56:46
that's Dan Farah from Age of Disclosure, which if you
1:56:49
haven't seen it, folks, amazing documentary, very interesting. You know,
1:56:53
it's a bunch of different people that have inside information
1:56:57
that are talking about it. And here they're just debunking it.
1:57:01
The eight-pointed star refers to a declassified 2013 infrared military
1:57:06
video released as part of the government UFO files. The
1:57:10
footage was widely debated online and linked to alien or
1:57:13
biblical origins. However, experts debunked the phenomenon, explaining it is
1:57:18
simply a distortion caused by a hot jet engine's exhaust
1:57:22
plume hitting a military infrared camera.
1:57:26
Speaker 1: Allegedly.
1:57:28
Speaker 2: I prefer to believe that it's something else. I don't know.
1:57:32
Speaker 1: Let me add another twist to this missing person thing
1:57:34
for you.
1:57:34
Speaker 2: Okay, please.
1:57:35
Speaker 1: So it's more of an evolution for me learning what
1:57:40
could be happening in those woods. And I started off
1:57:43
in national parks. And the most recent thing I've done,
1:57:47
Missing 411 National Parks, Washington State, there's a case where
1:57:52
a guy in 2006 disappeared in Olympic National Park. He
1:57:57
was a former Army intelligence officer. He worked in Israel.
1:58:03
He worked in Africa. He worked in a lot of
1:58:04
different places, spoke six languages. And then he started to
1:58:08
work in campaigns. And he worked for a woman who
1:58:11
was campaigning to be a congresswoman in Washington state. She lost.
1:58:15
She became the head of retirement services in the state
1:58:18
of Washington. She brought him along as the assistant. His
1:58:22
name is Gilbert Gilman. When I wrote the story up
1:58:26
for my books, He was supposed to show up at
1:58:30
this meeting for her on a Sunday. He stopped off
1:58:33
at Olympic National Park, parked his car, was playing the
1:58:37
music loud. A ranger come by, asked him to turn
1:58:40
it down. He turned it down. He got out and
1:58:41
he walked into the woods. He never came back. Huge search.
1:58:45
He's never found. That's all I really knew. And I
1:58:49
wrote it up like that. Canines couldn't follow his track.
1:58:51
It disappeared. Blah, blah, blah. Then I interview. We set
1:58:56
up doing this thing for the movie, interviewing his relatives.
1:58:59
And I interview his girlfriend. And his girlfriend said she
1:59:02
saw him a month beforehand. And she said, a week
1:59:07
before he disappeared, he was trying to call me like
1:59:10
he wanted to tell me something. And I was busy
1:59:11
and I couldn't talk to him. And I knew he
1:59:14
wanted to tell me something, but then I put it up.
1:59:16
So something was wrong. I never got to talk to
1:59:19
him again. So I start talking to her about his past.
1:59:23
And I said, well, did he ever work for the CIA?
1:59:25
And Joe, she goes, I don't know if I can
1:59:29
talk about that. I said, well, why can't you talk
1:59:33
about that? Well, I don't know. I don't think I can.
1:59:37
Speaker 2: That means yes.
1:59:39
Speaker 1: Exactly. So she gets emotional. She's upset. She can't see him.
1:59:47
And then we go into the next room, interview his mom.
1:59:51
And his mom says, well, Dave, a lot of people
1:59:53
don't know this, that before he disappeared, I have a
1:59:58
penthouse in Chicago. This woman's really wealthy. And Gilbert has
2:00:03
a bedroom there. And he asked me to stack a
2:00:07
couple books on his nightstand. And he wrote something on
2:00:12
a yellow pad on my coffee table in Arabic. And
2:00:17
I said, how long was that sitting there? And she goes, well,
2:00:19
I went one week and he disappeared. I never got
2:00:22
to really look at it. And then I flew to Washington.
2:00:25
So I don't know what he wrote. So Joe, here's
2:00:29
the kicker. I said, well, that's pretty strange. And she goes, no, Dave,
2:00:32
what's really strange is I'm in Washington and we're doing
2:00:36
this search for Gilbert. And the people who run my townhouse,
2:00:41
my condominium, she lives like on the 30th floor, call
2:00:44
me and said, two FBI agents were just here. And
2:00:48
they said they needed to get into your townhouse. And
2:00:50
I gave them the keys and they went into your
2:00:53
townhouse and took some things. I said, Mrs. Gilman, they
2:00:57
can't do that. I don't care what they say. They
2:01:00
need a search warrant to go in your house. He
2:01:02
can't give permission. What was taken? Well, I went back,
2:01:07
the yellow pad was gone and a couple of his
2:01:09
personal things were gone. So I said, this doesn't make
2:01:15
any sense. Why would the FBI go into your house
2:01:19
to retrieve anything of Gilbert's if this is a missing
2:01:22
person case and he has no relationship to the government?
2:01:26
And she goes, well, Dave, you're asking what I've been
2:01:28
thinking all along. Now, this happened 15 years before I
2:01:34
interviewed her. She's sharp as a tack, girlfriend sharp as
2:01:38
a tack. And she says, things haven't seemed right. And
2:01:43
she said, I think he's alive somewhere. So as she's
2:01:47
saying all this, my mind's racing and I'm thinking, how
2:01:50
many other people have disappeared in a national park under
2:01:53
circumstances that I just heard from a girlfriend and the mom,
2:01:59
but I don't know about them because I haven't been
2:02:00
able to interview their girlfriends and their moms. And why
2:02:05
wouldn't the park service give me the information on the
2:02:09
report if it was a straight missing person case like this?
2:02:13
They would. So really, is there something more nefarious going
2:02:17
on in the parks about taking people That they're in
2:02:23
conjunction with some other body, some other three-letter agency to
2:02:28
make people go away.
2:02:32
Speaker 2: So they're doing this on purpose with people that have
2:02:34
information that's inconvenient or that's top secret. They don't want
2:02:39
it being leaked somehow.
2:02:42
Speaker 1: I had the feeling Gilbert knew. I think it was
2:02:45
all planned.
2:02:47
Speaker 2: He knew that they were going to take him?
2:02:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think he agreed to go.
2:02:53
Speaker 2: Why do you think that?
2:02:54
Speaker 1: Because he left that pad with the writing in Arabic.
2:02:58
Speaker 2: Did he speak Arabic?
2:03:00
Speaker 1: He spoke six languages.
2:03:02
Speaker 2: And we don't know what he wrote down in Arabic.
2:03:03
Speaker 3: No.
2:03:04
Speaker 4: Okay.
2:03:06
Speaker 1: And she also said a peculiar thing. I'm sorry, I
2:03:11
don't remember the books. But he asked her to get
2:03:15
two books and put on the counter. And she thought
2:03:18
that that was a clue to what happened. Dante's Inferno
2:03:22
might have been one of them. And I forgot the
2:03:25
other book. But she said, Dave, I think that's a clue.
2:03:29
I just don't understand what he was trying to say.
2:03:33
Speaker 3: Huh.
2:03:35
Speaker 1: But that's also not the first time something like this
2:03:37
has happened where somebody disappeared and it was all pointing
2:03:42
to the government. In the 1950s, there was a man
2:03:46
that was going to Miami University. He played in their band.
2:03:50
He was a wrestler for the varsity wrestling team. He
2:03:53
was an all-around guy. One night, he comes home to
2:03:57
his dorm, and strangely, there's a fish in his bed.
2:04:02
And he asks the RA for new sheets. She brings
2:04:07
in new sheets. He gets them changed. Make a long
2:04:11
story short, he disappears right after that, that night. So
2:04:15
it's like, that's the message that you're going to go
2:04:17
that night or something? I don't know. So everything just
2:04:21
looks like the guy disappeared from college. Except five months later,
2:04:25
the head of housing for Miami, Ohio, is at a
2:04:33
city 10 miles north of the Pennsylvania border in New York,
2:04:37
a little tiny city. He and his wife are having
2:04:40
dinner at a bed and breakfast. And sitting across from him,
2:04:46
10 feet away, are three men at a table. And
2:04:51
he says, I'm telling you, that was Ron Tammen. That's
2:04:55
the guy's name. And he's talking to the wife and
2:04:58
they keep looking at each other. So they go out
2:05:03
to the parking lot and he tells his wife, I've
2:05:04
got to go back in. Ron's disappeared. I've got to
2:05:06
go talk to him. So he goes back in and
2:05:08
all three of the guys are gone, all dressed in suits.
2:05:12
That was another indicator that the government had something to
2:05:16
do with the disappearance. Now, Ron's family lived in L.A.
2:05:21
They never saw Ron again, never heard from him again.
2:05:24
Speaker 2: What do you think they're doing? Like, why would they
2:05:26
do that?
2:05:28
Speaker 1: Well, the question I and I've talked to my team
2:05:30
about this. Why would the government need you to separate
2:05:34
yourself from the family under unusual circumstances? What would be
2:05:39
that point? I don't understand. If you wanted to go
2:05:43
to work for government services, why wouldn't you just do it?
2:05:46
Speaker 3: Story about. Fish in Ron's bed on RonaldTamman.com. Is this
2:05:51
the right guy?
2:05:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's him.
2:05:53
Speaker 3: It says this was a prank. Someone confessed it to
2:05:56
him in 2010.
2:05:58
Speaker 2: The fish was a prank.
2:05:59
Speaker 3: That's what it says. In 2010 he confessed to me
2:06:01
the culprit behind the fish prank.
2:06:04
Speaker 2: Okay. But still the guy disappeared. Think of it this way.
2:06:10
In these emotionally charged and divisive times when no one
2:06:12
seems to agree on much of anything, I present to
2:06:14
you the one shining example of a core belief with
2:06:17
With which all of humanity can surely agree, at that
2:06:21
time honored value is this. No one in his or
2:06:24
her right mind would ever knowingly sleep with a dead
2:06:27
fish in their bed. Depends on how tired you are.
2:06:31
Speaker 1: Okay.
2:06:37
Speaker 2: This doesn't make any sense to me. So when these
2:06:40
guys just disappear, like you think that he knew he
2:06:43
was going to be taken?
2:06:45
Speaker 1: Ron, I don't know.
2:06:47
Speaker 2: You don't know. But the other guy that went into
2:06:48
the woods, you think he knew?
2:06:50
Speaker 1: I think Gilbert knew.
2:06:51
Speaker 2: And how do you think he was taken?
2:06:52
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I don't know.
2:06:55
Speaker 3: He might be a victim of a serial killer that
2:06:58
someone else investigated on a TV show 10, 12 years ago.
2:07:02
Speaker 1: That's completely BS.
2:07:04
Speaker 2: Why do you think that?
2:07:06
Speaker 1: If a serial killer killed him in the middle of
2:07:08
the woods, they would have found his body.
2:07:12
Speaker 3: Hmm. The guy said that he put at least... One,
2:07:16
maybe up to eight bodies, 100 feet at the bottom
2:07:19
of the lake. Oh. Maybe. He admitted to at least
2:07:24
eight slayings before he died at age 34. Oh. Didn't
2:07:28
say he killed this guy, but.
2:07:30
Speaker 2: But he killed him in that area? Yeah.
2:07:32
Speaker 4: Oh.
2:07:33
Speaker 2: Well, that's possible. That would be why they didn't find
2:07:36
the body.
2:07:40
Speaker 1: They should have found tracks to a kill site. They
2:07:43
would have found evidence.
2:07:44
Speaker 2: Right. They would have probably found some blood.
2:07:46
Speaker 1: And remember, they were on that from the day he disappeared.
2:07:49
Speaker 2: And they had dogs.
2:07:51
Speaker 3: Yeah.
2:07:51
Speaker 2: They would have found blood.
2:07:52
Speaker 1: Correct.
2:07:53
Speaker 2: Unless they strangled him.
2:07:54
Speaker 1: Well, even if they would have strangled him, there would
2:07:57
have been so many people in that area, that guy
2:07:59
would have been saved.
2:08:00
Speaker 3: At least. Really?
2:08:03
Speaker 2: How– was this like wooded? You're talking about a lake?
2:08:07
Are you sure they'd been seen?
2:08:08
Speaker 1: It was a small parking lot, not a big area.
2:08:10
Speaker 2: Right.
2:08:11
Speaker 1: This isn't like a real big parking lot, a real
2:08:13
big tourist attraction.
2:08:14
Speaker 2: But if this guy had done this to a bunch
2:08:15
of people, for sure.
2:08:17
Speaker 1: Not right there.
2:08:18
Speaker 4: No?
2:08:18
Speaker 3: No.
2:08:19
Speaker 4: No.
2:08:20
Speaker 2: Okay. The guy who disappeared and went to the woods
2:08:23
and you think that guy, what was his name again?
2:08:26
Speaker 1: Ron Tammen?
2:08:27
Speaker 2: No, the other guy. The guy that disappeared and went
2:08:29
to the woods.
2:08:30
Speaker 1: Gilbert Gilman?
2:08:30
Speaker 2: Yeah.
2:08:31
Speaker 1: Yeah.
2:08:32
Speaker 2: When that guy disappeared, which is Gilbert? This is the
2:08:36
serial killer one. Okay. The guy that you said parked
2:08:40
his car and went to the woods and you think
2:08:42
that he knew that he was going to be taken.
2:08:45
Speaker 3: Yeah.
2:08:46
Speaker 2: What do you think happened to him when he went
2:08:47
to the woods?
2:08:49
Speaker 1: I think somehow they had some extraction method and who
2:08:53
knows what that is. He was wearing Bermuda shorts, flip-flops.
2:08:57
He wasn't somebody that was going for a hike. That
2:09:00
was the other indicator. He was wearing like a Hawaiian shirt.
2:09:04
Even the ranger said she thought that him playing the
2:09:08
loud music– Was a signal? That was a signal for
2:09:12
her to come over and acknowledge that he was there.
2:09:16
Speaker 3: OK.
2:09:16
Speaker 2: So he planned his disappearance maybe.
2:09:20
Speaker 1: Or he wanted her to see her there. See him there.
2:09:24
That was the indicator.
2:09:25
Speaker 2: Do you ever wonder, like, if you're losing your marbles
2:09:28
studying all these different things? You know what I mean? Like,
2:09:30
you're going over so many different cases and so many
2:09:33
kooky circumstances and different people disappearing that your whole perspective
2:09:39
on this stuff gets a little weird?
2:09:42
Speaker 1: I would say so, except I wrote this up as
2:09:44
just a standard everyday missing person case. These weren't my beliefs.
2:09:49
That's These were the beliefs of the girlfriend and the mom.
2:09:54
And I have to say that the FBI going to
2:09:57
that house is completely outside the realm of anything normal.
2:10:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very bizarre. And also taking the legal pad
2:10:04
with the Arabic writing on it and the books.
2:10:06
Speaker 1: Correct.
2:10:07
Speaker 2: It's very weird. But, I mean, who knows what that's
2:10:09
all about? That seems to have something to do with
2:10:11
the government, whereas some of these things seem to have
2:10:14
something to do with either extraterrestrials or interdimensional things.
2:10:19
Speaker 1: Correct.
2:10:21
Speaker 2: A lot of weirdness in this.
2:10:22
Speaker 1: World, David. I think our world is much more complex
2:10:25
than we think.
2:10:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would agree with you.
2:10:29
Speaker 1: Just like humanity. Everyone's– there's a lot of complex people.
2:10:34
For sure.
2:10:35
Speaker 2: Well, certainly the people that have access to this information,
2:10:38
like the stuff that Dan Farah was talking about. Like
2:10:42
imagine the mind of a person. Let's assume that there
2:10:47
are really extraterrestrial bodies somewhere. that there are recovered crafts,
2:10:53
and that these people like Bob Lazar really have been
2:10:56
back engineering. Don't you imagine being one of those people,
2:11:00
one of this select group of people, a small amount
2:11:03
that have information that's completely different from what the rest
2:11:08
of the world has about the reality in which we
2:11:11
exist in, that we share this reality with things that
2:11:16
have technology that is beyond our comprehension. They can do
2:11:20
things that We can't even imagine. And that these people
2:11:24
all know it's real and that they're holding on to
2:11:26
this information. They don't think we can handle it.
2:11:32
Speaker 1: I mean, the radio shows I've been on and the
2:11:33
people I've talked to have said the same thing about
2:11:36
me and missing people. It's been a revelation that this
2:11:39
many people are missing in our woods that are unaccounted for.
2:11:44
And our government won't acknowledge it. Acknowledging it by releasing
2:11:49
a list, releasing the documents. Why can't we see him?
2:11:53
Speaker 2: But you could attribute that to sheer incompetence, like the
2:11:57
people that are running the parks and working for like,
2:12:00
you know, you get bad investigators in all sorts of.
2:12:04
I mean, you're a cop. You know about all that.
2:12:07
What's going on with this guy?
2:12:08
Speaker 3: From two years ago, Gil's mother thinks he might have
2:12:13
disappeared to be a spy for the U.S. government and
2:12:16
is still alive. And their authorities say that's possible.
2:12:20
Speaker 1: What?
2:12:20
Speaker 3: He had a long history. He said he was an
2:12:22
interrogator and knew six different languages. He worked for the UN.
2:12:27
It said when he went missing, he had survival skills
2:12:30
from his military training. He was a paratrooper. Huh. And
2:12:34
he had a camera on him was apparently all he had.
2:12:36
Speaker 2: So they could have staged his disappearance so that they
2:12:39
could position him somewhere else. People would think he's dead.
2:12:43
You give him a totally new identity. Now he's working
2:12:46
undercover somewhere.
2:12:47
Speaker 3: Yeah.
2:12:48
Speaker 2: Well, I would imagine that's possible. I would imagine like
2:12:51
if you wanted someone to work for you and you say,
2:12:54
you know, this person is going to work undercover in
2:12:57
some top secret mission. OK, but you've got to disappear.
2:13:00
You got to disappear from regular life so that we
2:13:03
can give you this new identity. We can't just have,
2:13:07
you know, your friends looking for you. We have to
2:13:09
move you to some of the new part.
2:13:11
Speaker 1: Of the world. So, Joe, if you were me and
2:13:14
you were sitting across from his mom, that's really something vile,
2:13:18
I think, to do to your parent.
2:13:20
Speaker 2: Oh, for sure. Horrific.
2:13:22
Speaker 1: She was a broken human. Yeah.
2:13:25
Speaker 2: No, that's terrible.
2:13:27
Speaker 1: And I asked her, I said, there's a good chance
2:13:29
Gilbert's somewhere in the world watching this. What do you
2:13:32
want to say to him? She said, Gilbert, just please
2:13:35
come home. She was like an 88-year-old woman then.
2:13:38
Speaker 2: Oh, boy.
2:13:40
Speaker 3: Yeah.
2:13:41
Speaker 4: Yeah.
2:13:41
Speaker 1: No, that's brutal.
2:13:44
Speaker 2: Well, that's a very different thing we're talking about. That's
2:13:46
not a fun thing.
2:13:47
Speaker 3: No.
2:13:47
Speaker 2: The fun things, the alien stuff.
2:13:49
Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
2:13:49
Speaker 2: That's the fun stuff.
2:13:50
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I got off track there.
2:13:54
Speaker 2: No, but I mean, look, I get it because you're
2:13:56
dealing with like a wide swath, like a bunch of
2:13:58
different kinds of encounters and different things. You know, those, yeah,
2:14:04
that's dark.
2:14:05
Speaker 1: So do you know much about Mount Rainier?
2:14:07
Speaker 2: Not much, no.
2:14:09
Speaker 1: So do you know that the original UFO period of
2:14:14
time started with a UFO sighting?
2:14:16
Speaker 2: Kenneth Arnold.
2:14:17
Speaker 4: Right.
2:14:17
Speaker 3: Yeah.
2:14:18
Speaker 1: So do you know that when Arnold, do you know
2:14:21
what Arnold was doing when he was flying around?
2:14:24
Speaker 3: No.
2:14:25
Speaker 1: So six months prior to that, three transports, marine transports
2:14:30
were flying from El Toro Marine Base into Seattle. Boom,
2:14:35
one after the other. They hit bad weather. One of
2:14:39
those planes came around and they lost it. Arnold, there
2:14:44
was like a huge reward if you could find it.
2:14:47
Arnold was flying by Rainier looking at the mountain trying
2:14:50
to see if he could find it, and these things
2:14:52
went by. Long story short, months later, they found the
2:14:58
transport had crashed into the side of Rainier. First of all,
2:15:03
do you know that the Marines never took one body
2:15:05
off of there?
2:15:08
Speaker 2: Did they recover the vehicle, the craft?
2:15:11
Speaker 3: No.
2:15:12
Speaker 2: No.
2:15:12
Speaker 1: They didn't recover anything.
2:15:13
Speaker 2: They just left it there?
2:15:14
Speaker 1: They left it there.
2:15:16
Speaker 2: Was it because the extraction is too difficult?
2:15:18
Speaker 1: That's what they said.
2:15:19
Speaker 2: Isn't that possible?
2:15:21
Speaker 1: I guess so.
2:15:22
Speaker 2: I mean, if it's not traversable, if they can't get
2:15:24
in there.
2:15:24
Speaker 1: But they did get in there.
2:15:25
Speaker 2: They did.
2:15:26
Speaker 1: They did. They said they got in there. They saw bodies,
2:15:29
but it was too dangerous to remove any, and they
2:15:31
left them all on the side of the mountain. So
2:15:35
that's the reason that Arnold was there. A lot of
2:15:37
people don't know that.
2:15:39
Speaker 2: Okay.
2:15:40
Speaker 1: And when he saw those things fly by him at
2:15:43
an extraordinary pace— He said, hey, that's nothing that no
2:15:48
planes we have. And there were multiple ones he saw
2:15:50
go by. Now, since that time, Mount Baker and Mount
2:15:55
Rainier have had dozens of UFO sightings. And if you
2:16:00
look at the dispersion of people who have disappeared on Rainier,
2:16:06
most of them aren't way up here on the mountain.
2:16:08
They're down here at the bottom. And when we put
2:16:14
that in the movie, they People couldn't believe how many
2:16:16
people there are missing.
2:16:18
Speaker 2: How many people?
2:16:19
Speaker 1: There's probably at least 15 that have never been found.
2:16:23
And it makes no sense.
2:16:26
Speaker 2: And are they all hikers or what?
2:16:29
Speaker 1: Hikers, photographers. One kid worked for Alaska Airlines, went into
2:16:35
the woods like every week because he lived near Rainier.
2:16:39
And on his days off, he took pictures of the
2:16:42
mountain and panorama shots. And some of his photos actually
2:16:46
made it into the National Park headquarters. They're that good.
2:16:50
He went up to take pictures one day. He has
2:16:52
a tripod, real nice camera. He disappears. They search for
2:16:56
him for 10 days, bring in canines, everything. They can't
2:16:59
find anything of him. Now, this is one of those
2:17:02
cases where let's say there was bear predation. Yeah, there
2:17:06
may be nothing left of him, but the tripod will
2:17:09
be there forever. The camera is there forever, his boots,
2:17:12
his belt. But they never found anything. There was a
2:17:17
medical doctor that disappeared just recently within the last couple
2:17:20
of years, hiking in that same area, a giant loop backpacking.
2:17:28
I think he was 34 years old. Absolute genius guy.
2:17:31
Came from UC Berkeley. Just recently moved up to Seattle.
2:17:35
Took a new job. Went on a backpacking loop there.
2:17:38
He disappeared. Never found nothing. But it's repeatedly this big search.
2:17:45
Find nothing. No tracks, no scent trail, no evidence.
2:17:50
Speaker 2: Of them being there in the same area where there's
2:17:52
dozens of sightings yes but if you wanted to get
2:17:56
abducted that's the place to go if you really want
2:17:59
to find out what's going on have you ever just
2:18:03
ever thought about have you ever seen anything yourself as
2:18:07
far as what as far as like something that looks
2:18:08
like it's from another planet.
2:18:10
Speaker 1: Oh, we've seen orbs and UFOs many times.
2:18:14
Speaker 2: Many times?
2:18:14
Speaker 1: Yes.
2:18:15
Speaker 2: Have you taken photos of them or anything?
2:18:18
Speaker 1: We have some, yeah.
2:18:19
Speaker 2: You got good ones?
2:18:21
Speaker 1: There's a lot of really good orb photos out there.
2:18:24
Speaker 2: Right.
2:18:25
Speaker 1: So that's not unusual. I think after what I've seen,
2:18:33
after I've made five documentaries now, I've seen 12 and
2:18:37
14 and 15-year-olds do things with special effects that if
2:18:42
you watched it on film, you wouldn't know if it was.
2:18:45
Speaker 2: Real or not. Well, certainly today. Today, I mean, all
2:18:48
bets are off. You really can't tell what's real and
2:18:50
what's not real.
2:18:51
Speaker 1: That's why somebody who sends me a Bigfoot photo or UFO,
2:18:55
I don't even watch it because you can't tell what's
2:18:58
real anymore.
2:18:59
Speaker 3: Right.
2:19:01
Speaker 1: You'd have to go all the way back for me
2:19:03
to film, actual film, and then I'll look at it.
2:19:08
Speaker 2: Well, David... Thank you very much for being here. It's
2:19:11
certainly a very interesting subject. I can't imagine what your
2:19:15
brain is like having studied this for all these many years.
2:19:19
You've got a very weird version of the world that
2:19:22
we live in because you've been inundated by this stuff
2:19:25
for decades. But I think there's something there. I don't
2:19:29
know what it is. Do you?
2:19:30
Speaker 1: I'll have to wait for that for maybe round two, huh?
2:19:34
Speaker 2: Okay, round two.
2:19:35
Speaker 3: Okay.
2:19:36
Speaker 2: Well, thank you very much. Tell everybody where they can
2:19:39
find your work, where they can watch your documentaries.
2:19:42
Speaker 1: My two most recent movies, Missing 411, National Parks, Washington
2:19:47
State is on Amazon. American Sasquatch, Man, Myth or Monster
2:19:52
is on Amazon. And then you can watch my three
2:19:54
movies for free on Tubi. And that is Missing 411.
2:19:58
That's the number one. Missing 411, The Hunted and Missing 411,
2:20:02
The UFO Connection. And my website is missing411. com, and it
2:20:06
has all my books.
2:20:07
Speaker 3: All right.
2:20:08
Speaker 2: Thank you very much.
2:20:09
Speaker 1: Thank you, Jim.
2:20:09
Speaker 3: My pleasure. All right.
2:20:10
Speaker 2: Bye, everybody.