Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / Why Your Partner Never Seems to Get It (and How to Finally Reach Them) | Love | E538

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Why Your Partner Never Seems to Get It (and How to Finally Reach Them) | Love | E538 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

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  Speaker 2: It's going to be easy for me to say the
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  Speaker 2: reason and we can't communicate as you don't get it,
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  Speaker 2: and I think if we both do that, we're stuck.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, I'm going to confess something on a podcast that
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  Speaker 1: I probably shouldn't confess on a podcast ortually this podcast,
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  Speaker 1: but I'm going to do it anyway. You know, I'm
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  Speaker 1: a marriage and family therapist. I've been doing this work
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  Speaker 1: for like twenty years.
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  Speaker 3: I talk to paying clients all the time about how
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  Speaker 3: to improve their communication, and communication can still to this
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  Speaker 3: day sometimes go sideways in my own relationship, Like what
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  Speaker 3: I think I'm saying is not what my husband is hearing,
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  Speaker 3: and sometimes his responses to me are not always alignment
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  Speaker 3: with what I would like them to be.
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  Speaker 2: You know, anytime that there's a problem and we make
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  Speaker 2: up that the problems all attributed to somebody else, I
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  Speaker 2: think it's a little bit dangerous, you know, not to
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  Speaker 2: say it can't sometimes be all somebody else's fault. But
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  Speaker 2: I just think that's less likely than we might say it.
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  Speaker 1: And so you know, here's the deal. One hundred percent
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  Speaker 1: of adults who have been in a relationship with someone
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  Speaker 1: for more than six weeks can relate to this experience.
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  Speaker 1: And I think that is why we need to be
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  Speaker 1: talking about communication over and over again, because this is
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  Speaker 1: such an opportunity for growth for all of us. And
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  Speaker 1: today we are taking a bit of a different stance,
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  Speaker 1: an important one. We're talking about what might be the
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  Speaker 1: missing link to all of this, which are communication stylesmmunication types,
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  Speaker 1: the fact that different people need different things out of communication,
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  Speaker 1: and that cracking this code is what can really help
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  Speaker 1: us all improve. So that is what you're going to
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  Speaker 1: be learning about today.
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  Speaker 2: So if you're my person and I say here are
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  Speaker 2: the facts as I see them, and you say, well,
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  Speaker 2: actually I've got a different set of facts, then I
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  Speaker 2: want to learn from you. Then I want to say, okay,
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  Speaker 2: well let's talk about your facts.
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  Speaker 1: And if this is your first time tuning in, I
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  Speaker 1: could not be more thrilled that you found me, that
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  Speaker 1: you're here. I'm doctor Lisa Marie Bobby. This is a Love,
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  Speaker 1: Happiness and Success podcast. If we have not yet met
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: I myself, I'm a marriage and family therapist, a board
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  Speaker 1: certified coach. I'm a license psychologist, founder of Growing Self,
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  Speaker 1: and this is the show where we are talking about real, practical,
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  Speaker 1: evidence based ways to make your whole life better, including
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: your relationship. And on today's show, I couldn't be more
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: thrilled to introduce you to a very special guest, Jason
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  Speaker 1: Van Ruler. Jason is a license psychotherapist and he's the
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  Speaker 1: author of a brand new book, Discovering Your Communication Type.
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  Speaker 1: He has been doing this for fifteen years and has
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  Speaker 1: deep insight into these communication patterns communication types, and he's
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  Speaker 1: here today to share his wisdom with us. So welcome Jason.
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  Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward.
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  Speaker 1: To this well, thank you for being here. And you know,
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  Speaker 1: I hope that personal disclosure at the very beginning was okay.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, you're you're married too, from what I understand, and.
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  Speaker 2: I've just never struggled with communication ever. No, that's never
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  Speaker 2: happened to me ever. In all my I'm kidding.
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  Speaker 1: Of course, we shall wit at the feet of the
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  Speaker 1: perfect one and maybe like soak it in.
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  Speaker 2: Okay said six weeks. I thought we didn't wait six
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  Speaker 2: weeks in our relationship. We had communication problems. Two weeks in,
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  Speaker 2: Oh my god, early to it.
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  Speaker 1: Well, you know, I just mentioned that because like some
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  Speaker 1: people that I've seen and not to name names, like
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  Speaker 1: some people online, they talk about it like they have
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  Speaker 1: all this stuff figured out, and I think you and
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  Speaker 1: I in the business like it can still go sideways
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  Speaker 1: so easily. And I mean, I'd love to just dive
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  Speaker 1: into all of this with you, just what you've learned
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  Speaker 1: over the years about you know, communication types, how they
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  Speaker 1: play a role in what happens in that space between
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  Speaker 1: two people. And then even though nobody's doing it perfectly,
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  Speaker 1: what are some of the best practices that can help
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  Speaker 1: us improve the odds? Let's say that don't go better.
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  Speaker 2: I like that that is a great goal for today. O.
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  Speaker 1: Right, so where should we begin? I mean, what do
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  Speaker 1: you think is the easiest entry point to understand your work?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think for a lot of people
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  Speaker 2: they maybe don't even realize there are different types. And
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  Speaker 2: then I think for yourself, myself, probably a lot of
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  Speaker 2: people in the therapy coaching space, we'd probably say, yeah,
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  Speaker 2: well there are definitely different types, but we're not always
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  Speaker 2: great at naming what that is.
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  Speaker 1: But you know what I would just to say, I mean,
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  Speaker 1: so you know, a marriage and family therapist. I never
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  Speaker 1: learned anything about different communication types. It's only been you know,
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  Speaker 1: many years after that. Learning like theory of personality I
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  Speaker 1: think influences communication styles. But generally speaking, it is, you know,
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  Speaker 1: what is the problem. There could be a psychopathology thing,
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  Speaker 1: or it could be what is the dysfunctional part of
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  Speaker 1: the system. So don't assume that there's like common knowledge
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  Speaker 1: about communication types. I think we should start at the
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  Speaker 1: very beginning.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so there are yes. So I mean that's
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  Speaker 2: that's the thing. And really what started this book for
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  Speaker 2: me was getting to work with a lot of people
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  Speaker 2: doing retreats and workshops. So I always feel like, you know,
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  Speaker 2: being in that space, there's so much wisdom because you're
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  Speaker 2: learning from so many people at once. And so what
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  Speaker 2: would happen is I would try to teach people empathy,
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  Speaker 2: and so empathy is tricky for most people, and so
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  Speaker 2: I would say, Okay, this might be a way you
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  Speaker 2: could communicate empathy. And what I would watch is that
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  Speaker 2: people would try to repeat what I said, you know,
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  Speaker 2: and so they'd go, Okay, well he said it, I'll
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  Speaker 2: say the same thing. And I would look down the
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  Speaker 2: line and I would see for some people that landed
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  Speaker 2: perfectly right, they just they completely parroted what I just
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  Speaker 2: said to their partner. Their partner was like, this is awesome.
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  Speaker 2: I wanted to hear this. But there were some other
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  Speaker 2: couples where it didn't land at all, even though they
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  Speaker 2: had just said the thing I said. And it started
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  Speaker 2: to be kind of wondering. I wonder why that is,
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  Speaker 2: Because if you've ever talked with someone where you know
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  Speaker 2: what you meant, you know what you wanted them to hear,
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  Speaker 2: but they walked away with something wildly different. Yeah, you
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  Speaker 2: know that feeling of kind of what's going on?
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  Speaker 1: Right?
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  Speaker 2: And so when I had that, it really led me
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  Speaker 2: down a path of let's figure this out. Why did
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  Speaker 2: that work here and it didn't work there?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, that's a great point. And even something that
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  Speaker 1: you would think is as basic as empathy and you know,
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  Speaker 1: defining the term right, like an accurate understanding of how
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  Speaker 1: some one else is feeling and the ability to acknowledge
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  Speaker 1: that right in in a way. And for some people
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  Speaker 1: that's very meaningful. But what you saw is for other
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  Speaker 1: people that also didn't land. So then what did you learn?
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  Speaker 1: I mean, what was different about those couples where empathy
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  Speaker 1: was not the coin of the realm, so to speak, well,
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  Speaker 1: what's going on?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they were speaking in a way that
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  Speaker 2: the other person understood deeply. And what I mean by
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  Speaker 2: that is they were communicating to their type, right, and
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  Speaker 2: so for that person, and especially the challenge around empathy
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  Speaker 2: is being seen, right, and so how do we see
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  Speaker 2: somebody best? Well, we speak to them in the language
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  Speaker 2: they speak. And so what I found is that where
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  Speaker 2: that worked was where a person really understood their partner
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  Speaker 2: and what communication was about for them. And so that
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  Speaker 2: started me kind of considering, I wonder what would all
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  Speaker 2: factor into this, And early on I kind of thought
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  Speaker 2: of it as different accents. You know, I'm from the Midwest.
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  Speaker 2: I've got a bit of a mid West accent. If
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  Speaker 2: you were to go to New York or LA or
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  Speaker 2: all these different places, we all have a little bit
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  Speaker 2: different accent that's really born and raised with us based
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  Speaker 2: on where we're from. And that made a lot of
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  Speaker 2: sense to me because I think our communication types are
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  Speaker 2: like that, that there's something we're kind of given in
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  Speaker 2: childhood that we develop in our family systems and then
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  Speaker 2: we end up living those out. And that's the language
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  Speaker 2: that we most naturally speak, especially when we're under pressure.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, I could see, you know, family culture, the way
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  Speaker 1: that communication was conducted in our family of origin is
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  Speaker 1: so important the life experiences of you know, healthy versus
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  Speaker 1: unhealthy feeling communication, and I think also wiring can have
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  Speaker 1: an impact. Okay, So we're going to talk more deeply
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  Speaker 1: about all of this, but would it be okay to
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  Speaker 1: ask you, I mean, just even for a quick overview
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  Speaker 1: of like I think you said, five primary communication types Okay.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so there are five, and I always preface
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  Speaker 2: it with there there's no one better than the others,
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  Speaker 2: you know, although we all think our own is the
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  Speaker 2: best obviously, but there's no one better than the others.
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  Speaker 2: And they're all full of just strengths and opportunities. Okay,
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  Speaker 2: And so they follow the acronym pads, p aths, and
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  Speaker 2: they're really the why behind our communication. So, for instance,
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  Speaker 2: the p is the peacemaker, and peacemaker's familiar term and
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  Speaker 2: what it means in our communication type is when I'm
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  Speaker 2: talking to you, I want you and I to have
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  Speaker 2: harmony at the end of our conversation. Okay, even if
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  Speaker 2: there wouldn't naturally be or maybe there shouldn't be. I'm
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  Speaker 2: always scanning as we're talking, going is she doing okay?
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  Speaker 2: Are we okay? Is this going to end the way
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  Speaker 2: I want it to? The A is the advocate, and
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  Speaker 2: their communication is really about what's fair, what's just, and
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  Speaker 2: what's right, And so they're scanning the conversation going was
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  Speaker 2: that moral? Was that just? Am I sticking up for
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  Speaker 2: the person that needs me to stick up for them?
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  Speaker 2: Am I saying the thing that needs to be said?
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  Speaker 2: They make great friends because if you've ever been in
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  Speaker 2: a space where like, is someone going to say something?
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  Speaker 2: The advocate's going to say something? They definitely will. The
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  Speaker 2: next one is the thinker, and the thinker is more
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  Speaker 2: of your internal processor. They're the person who wants to
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  Speaker 2: get it right. They want to be accurate, precise, factual.
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  Speaker 2: If they were on your show and they gave you
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: a stat and they said, hey, it's twenty nine percent,
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  Speaker 2: but it was actually twenty four, they might lie awake
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  Speaker 2: at night in their bed going how could I have
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  Speaker 2: done that? I was percents off? And that would really
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  Speaker 2: bother them. The H is the harbor, and harbors are
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  Speaker 2: about their feelings and others, and so a lot of
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  Speaker 2: people in the therapy space coaching. Not everybody, but they
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  Speaker 2: have a leaning towards that where I want to talk
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  Speaker 2: to you about how you feel. You know, if you
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  Speaker 2: and I said, hey, let's just riff on our feelings,
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  Speaker 2: I could do that. I could do that for a
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  Speaker 2: long time. And then the last one is the s
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  Speaker 2: and the spark is the person who brings the ennery.
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  Speaker 2: They're charismatic, kind of magnetic. They like to go really
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  Speaker 2: fast and they struggle slowing down to deal with things
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  Speaker 2: that aren't.
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  Speaker 1: As fund I mean, I have to ask you now
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  Speaker 1: what your communication type is, don't I. I'm like legally
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  Speaker 1: obligated to.
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  Speaker 2: So yeah, So what you get from the assessment is
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  Speaker 2: there's a primary and a secondary, and so that primary
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  Speaker 2: is kind of our go to. Now we can adapt
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  Speaker 2: different styles based on our environments. So sometimes we're in
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: an environment where we have to kind of adapt and
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: be something different because that's what it requires. But we
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: all kind of have that primary and then we all
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  Speaker 2: have a secondary. And so for me, I'm a harbor thinker,
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  Speaker 2: and so I lead with feelings and then I kind
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: of go is it accurate, factual? Does it add up?
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  Speaker 2: And so it's an interesting space to be in. I
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  Speaker 2: am married to a thinker advocate, and so we've got
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: some things in common, but we also see some things different.
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: And so that it's not just communication style, but you
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: see things differently that there it impacts worldview. Is that right?
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because it's what we talk about.
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  Speaker 1: Well, and you know, as you're describing these and I
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: guess this would be a question for you, so tell
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  Speaker 1: me if this is misguided. But I could see there
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: being certainly many positive things and many strengths to each
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  Speaker 1: communication type, but also some things that could you know
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: that that flip side, that light and dark of the
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  Speaker 1: same thing, where you know, a peacemaker might also be
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  Speaker 1: kind of avoidant or potentially passive aggressive or an advocate
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  Speaker 1: could you know, be like your your champion in one situation,
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: but also getting upset with people when they're not following
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: the rules that they have decided on sometimes like have
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: you seen that in your work? That kind of both and.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, you nailed it. Yeah, it is that right. It's
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: both of those things. And so what I say is
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: is a strength and an opportunity and and so that
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: opportunity you know, for each and you did a great
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: job there with peacemaker advocate. You know, for the thinker,
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  Speaker 2: it's sometimes the facts aren't the most important things. Yeah,
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: and and sometimes they have to narrate their process because
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: they kind of go internal instead of letting people know
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: where they're at and talking about feelings. On the harbor side,
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: feelings aren't always the things that should drive the conversation.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: Sometimes we need to have conversations about other things. You know,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: I'm I'm kind of known as like a bad dinner
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: party guest because when I meet someone, I'm like, hey,
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: tell me about your mother and your relationship as a child.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: And and then people are just like, can we just
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: talk about the weather or Jason?
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: Why the time we hung out with Jason?
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: Okay?
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: And my friends who are hosting, they're just like, Jason,
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: come on, can you please? And so, you know, it's
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: a lighthearted example, but but sometimes you know, we have
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: to adapt and say it's not all going to be
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: about that. And then this spark their opportunity is to
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  Speaker 2: slow down a little bit, because sometimes they're just running
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: through life. And so as they run through life and
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: that it's great, they got good momentum, but sometimes they
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: run and people get left behind and so their job
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: is to kind of include some people with that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, you know, it's so funny because as you're
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: talking through these and about all these things, of course,
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: I'm naturally thinking, like, so, how how do you figure
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: out what person type you are? And I think you
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: mentioned something about an assessment. I obsolutely want to hear
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: more about that. But I think as you were describing them,
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: I'm probably that like spark type a lot of like
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: I like to go fast and I'm like always off
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: to the next thing. But I think also, you know,
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: I also related to what you were talking about with
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: the peacemaker part, like you know, when it's important and
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: when I care about someone, I tend to prioritize the
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: way they feel. And I don't know if that's part
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: of the peacemaker thing, but I need to think more
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: about all of this. But like, what what would be
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: the best way for people to first get clear about
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: their own communication type it ended, of course get clear
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: about their partner. So you know, how do those things
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: go together? But we're saying that you have an assessment
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: towards it sort of like things to think about.
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so there's an assessment in the book that
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: you can take, and there's also one online and so
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: you can take that as it's a free assessment and
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: then it will actually rate you in your categories. And
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: so that's a great start, you know. I always say
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: a good communicator kind of understands themselves. A great one
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: knows themselves and others. And so I think the first
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: step is learn a bit more about where you're at
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: and how you show up, and then learn about the
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: people you love, because it helps us approach important conversations differently.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think that that, you know, when I
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: get side with my husband, is you know, needing really
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: to modify the way that I talk to him or
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: to other people around what they will take on board, right,
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: And I could see how that is inc ardiably important
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: and so I would love to get some tips from
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: you about that. But but before we go into you know,
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: actualizing all this stuff, is it okay for me to
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: ask and you can ask me questions too if there's
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: things that you're curious about, But would you be willing
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: to share an example, even from your own relationship, about
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: you know, the combination of communication styles you mentioned you
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: and your wife having like an example of how that
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: can get challenging, like what does that look like when
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: people with different communications styles are missing each other? And
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: perhaps some of the changes you've made in your own
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: life to incorporate some of these ideas. Is that Okay, yeah.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Totally, I'm happy to share. And by the way, I've
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: been married long enough, I've got a lot of examples,
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: so I could give many, many examples. So I'll select
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: one for our purpose. Yes, So one kind of thing
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: that's happened a lot and our experience. So I get
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: to do new things and projects, and I get to
• 20:04
  Speaker 2: speak different places, and so I would learn about something
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: i'd be excited about. Right, So I would come home
• 20:11
  Speaker 2: and I would go to my wife, and you know,
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: we'd be sitting down, and I would proceed to tell
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: her all about my feelings, all about what was happening, okay,
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: And so I'd say, I'm so excited and I feel
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: this and I feel like it's working out and just
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: feeling feeling feeling okay. And she would hear that, and
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: because she's a thinker, she would go, well, what are
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: the details? Okay, So you've got a speaking engagement, you're
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: really excited about it. Where are you speaking? When are
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: the dates. What are the times she would go right
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: to the details, okay, and before I really did the
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: work on the book and really dug into this even
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: earlier than that, though, is I would hear that as
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: an attack on me. Oh no, okay. So I would go, well,
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: I'm so excited I'm telling you about my feelings and
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: you're making it go sideways because now you you to
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: kind of start an Excel spreadsheet and talk about other details. Yeah,
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: And I don't want to talk about the details. I
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: want to talk about the feelings.
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: Right, And then I would think, like, because you're supposed
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: to know these details, and maybe you hadn't liked I
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: don't know what hotel I'm staying out, okay, Like I hadn't.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: Even thought about it, right, hadn't even thought about it,
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: And it's not particularly enjoyable for me to talk about that.
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: That wouldn't be something I'd want to spend time talking about.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: But it is something that matters to her that she
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: talks about, and for her the details matter a lot,
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: and when the details are in order, she can be excited.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: I see.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: So it's kind of like that happens first, then the
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: feelings come, and so when that would happen. What I
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: would make up is that we weren't on the same
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: team anymore, that I was excited and she couldn't be
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: excited for me, and why did I share this? Because
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: she just had this reaction that I didn't really want
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: her to have. And she would exit that conversation kind
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: of feeling the same. Right, She'd go, I am excited,
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to love you. Well, I just have some
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: questions about details and the facts, and I don't understand
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: why you're upset. And so in that moment, we would
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: lose each other. You know, we're best friends, we're doing
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: life together, we're partners. So in that moment, my best
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: friend would kind of turn into something else. And learning
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: these different types and learning that she's different than me
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: has helped me to stop seeing that as something attacking
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: and just see it as that's how she communicates. And
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: so what I started to do when I would come
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: home and be really excited is I'd lead with the facts,
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: the details, logistics, and then I'd say, hey, can we
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: switch gears?
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: And she would go, yeah, totally, we can switch gears.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: And we had the best conversations, but I just had
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: to kind of know how to speak to what she
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: needed to hear and she knows what I need to hear,
• 22:46
  Speaker 2: and when we both make space for that, we actually connect.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for sharing that example. And I
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: mean there's just so much there. But like the level
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: of self awareness that you were each able to have
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: of you know, and like what you first said, nobody's wrong, right,
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: but being able to just understand, Yeah, this this is
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: how I think about things, how I communicate things, what
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: I want to have happened in conversations, and just having
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: a lot of awareness of yourself but also the other person.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: And then it's almost like being able to take turns
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: in a really intentional way so that you're each getting that.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: And also, if we're supposed to be best friends, how
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: did we lose each other? You know? That was kind
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: of the question that drove a lot of that, is
• 23:26
  Speaker 2: we're supposed to be best friends, Like what happened that
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: made us not? And didn't we want that?
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah? Right?
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: Because of frustration and that we are not connecting, we
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: are not speaking the same language. What does this mean? Right?
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, it can in a very real way aroad
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: a connection after a while, especially if you if you
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: don't know why that secure bond and that had started
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: maybe to happen, like are you still my best friend?
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: What's going on here? But then able to find out?
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: And don't you wish we made up good stories about
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: why it happens? You know, we don't it wouldn't it
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: be great if we made up something positive? But a
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: lot of times our narrative about sort of that experience
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: is not usually very positive towards the other person.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: That is so, right? Well, okay, so listen, we do
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: need to take a super fast break. But can I
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: tell you what I would love to hear your thoughts
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: about on the other side of this is exactly this.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: But and more so listen, as well as being a
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: podcast and a therapist and you know, a human, there
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: is this really weird thing happening in our culture right now.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: I feel like it's accelerating, especially over the last few years.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: But there is this story in the air, specifically about
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: men and their capacity to be emotionally intelligent, self aware
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: humans communicators, right like, there's this weird stereo typing about
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: who men are. And I what I have SAI in
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: my therapy practice is sometimes women make up stories around
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: the capacity of their partner, like they'll come and be
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: like I think maybe he has autism spectrum disorder, like
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: he does not actually like you know, like right, But
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: that could even be one or avoidant attachment style with
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: all kinds of things. But I think it is challenging.
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: I've even had people come on the show and want
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: to tell me about who men are and what that
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: does to women in relationships. I shut it down immediately.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, that has not been my personal experience at all,
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: and you and I both know it isn't true. On
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: the other side of this break though, I would love
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: to get more of your thoughts about that, particularly from
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: a male perspective when it comes to communication and communication
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: types and how to maybe manage some of the storytelling
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: that can happen in relationships. Partially as a product of
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: our culture right now, is that Okay.
• 25:56
  Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely.
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• 28:27
  Speaker 1: I'm back with very special guest, Jason Van Ruler, psychotherapist,
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: relationship expert, and author of Discovering Your Communication Type. So, Jason,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: just before the break, I oppose to you perhaps a
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: power bomb. I might get in trouble for asking, but
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: you know, I'd love to hear your thoughts about a
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: representation of mails and their capacity to have feelings and
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: or communicate it in relationships, just even in our culture
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: right now, and what you've seen that doing, I mean,
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: people internalizing it, people buying into that idea, the way
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: it can show up in relationships versus the reality of
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: what you've seen in your own life or in those
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: of your clients.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this is I mean, in being on social media,
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: I've seen a lot of this, you know, and it
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: has become a pretty powerful narrative about you know, men
• 29:20
  Speaker 2: and their capacity and emotional capacity to really have these
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: discussions and you know, what I think is probably like
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: you would say, you know, anytime that there's a problem
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: and we make up that the problems all attributed to
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: somebody else, I think it's a little bit dangerous, you know,
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: not not to say it can't sometimes we all somebody
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: else's fault. But I just think that's less likely than
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: we might say it. And so when we kind of
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: get into those waters, I just think that's dangerous territory
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: because sometimes it reflects maybe a lack of awareness on
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: our part. And so I think, like even tying it
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: to what we're talking about today, I think a lot
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: of men, you know, they really connect with the thinker,
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: and a lot of women connect with harbor, and so
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: neither one is right or wrong. But if I'm a
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: thinker and you're a harbor or vice versa, it's going
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: to be easy for me to say the reason we
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: can't communicate is you don't get it. Now, what's true
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: is each party could say that, right. They could just say, well,
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: the reason we don't communicate is you don't get it.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: And I think if we both do that, we're stuck.
• 30:24
  Speaker 2: I think men and women, you know, they have strengths
• 30:27
  Speaker 2: and weaknesses in their communication that aren't universal, but we
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: all have totally. That's just part of being human. So
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: I think we just have to really watch out because
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: I think we, you know, if their brains. We always
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: want to label something because that seems really convenient and
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: then we can kind of make it true. But I
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: think if that labeling means that we miss connection with
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: somebody we care about, that's that's not really a win
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: for anyone.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And that it is that we can't stereotype,
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: we can't pigeonhole, we can't generalize. And only in my
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: own life. I mean, my husband I think fits that
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: Harbor communication type, and have worked with so many men
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: who are very emotionally attuned, more so than female partners,
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: and so I think it can look like many different things.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: And can you know, but to not assume who people
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: are or how they feel or what they care about
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: based on you know, these superficial like a gender demographic
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: for example, I need to be more curious.
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: True.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, let them teach you their capacity, you know.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: So sometimes what I'll see too with a couple or
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: a team is someone will say, well, they don't have
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: the emotional capacity for this, you know, they're they're a guy,
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: they don't really get it, and I'll say, well, let's
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: give them space to actually communicate and see. Yeah, And
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: so what I find sometimes is that people are quickly
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: labeled and they're given a very little amount of time
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: to talk, and then of course they don't have a
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: whole lot to say. And so sometimes we just have
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: to let that person teach us about their type. And
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: guess what, most people are willing to do that, and
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: it's gotten not got anything to do with capacity.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I'm also thinking right now about what also
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: universally happens in distressed relationships. I mean, there are distressed
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: relationship dynamics that will always take over. One person tends
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: to be the pursuer wanting to connect and talk, and
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: sometimes that looks and feels and sounds like hostility and
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: criticism and like no, there are you know, a lot
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: of energy, which then will create withdrawal, like it is
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: not safe for me to tell you how I feel actually,
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: so I'm not going to do that, which then of
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: course makes the other person pursue. So it's like a
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: chicken and the egg kind of thing. But I'm also
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: wondering about, you know how you tease a part what
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: is a natural communication style? Communication type? When you're working
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: with a couple, I'm guessing who's coming in because communication
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: is hard and there is water under the bridge, and
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: a lot of the emotional safety and the trust between
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: them has been lost. Because that will impact how people
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: show up in relationships. So how do you start to
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: think through that? You know, and I'm asking for the
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: friends listening with us right now, if they're thinking about
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: how their partner shows up in communication right now, you know,
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: what is that style versus what is the product of
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: a relationship that is not feeling good for either of them?
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, And that's that's the challenge, right, is
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: that if there's been that you know, sort of unresolved
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: stuff or as I would call it, residue, you know,
• 33:32
  Speaker 2: relation or residue, how do we kind of deal with that?
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: And and a lot of times what it is is
• 33:38
  Speaker 2: is just you know, even the example I gave in
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: my own marriage, we've just missed each other so many
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: times that now it's become something much bigger. And so
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: what I try to do in my office is to
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: get a couple to speak to each other in the
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: way the other one listens for the first time because
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: it gives them some hope. Right, they go, Actually, we
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: maybe could do this, you know. I think so many
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: times we just get in these loops where we know
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: how to do it in a way that doesn't work,
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: but we have no idea about the alternative. Yeah, and
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: so what I want to kind of demonstrate for them
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: is there is a different way. We can't undo what's happened,
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: but if we can really capture what the experience was
• 34:15
  Speaker 2: for the other person and communicate that in a way
• 34:18
  Speaker 2: that they can hear it, it starts to open some doors.
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, you know, if it's okay, At some point I
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: would love to take for you to take us into
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: some examples of you know, not just what it is,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: but might what it might look like or sound like
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: in action. Do you feel like you need to know
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: your own communication style before you do that with somebody else.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like it's very helpful because it informs
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: us about probably how the other person's hearing us, you know,
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: so giving the sort of story about the dinner party
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: and and you know, being you know, joking around about it,
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: but also some truth. I wouldn't have necessarily thought that
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: was a problem, you know. So to me, Okay, I'm
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: talking to somebody about something I want to talk about.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: You know, I'm interested, I like to go deep. All
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: of that to me is just that's just sort of
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: a Friday night mm hmm. So had I not known
• 35:20
  Speaker 2: that about myself, I probably would just approach situations assuming
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: everybody like that, Well, yeah, and you know what.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, really like, you're offering your conversation partner something
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: that would probably be so meaningful and valuable to you,
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: Like for somebody to come and engage with you that way,
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: it's like, this is the best conversation I've had in
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: a long time. If somebody's like, so, how did you
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: feel when you're dot you know, right, versus somebody else
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: they're like, I don't know what to there right now,
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: and so can we just talk about this a little
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: bit more? Like so for people listening, and of course
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: everybody after they finished listening to this podcast is going
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: to go to your website or read the book and
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: take that to fight out for sure. But some of
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: the questions that you might ask yourself, like what are
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: one or two questions that would be like, yeah, that's
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: traveling me for each of the personality types, is that
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: okay to ask?
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, of course. And I think, as I kind
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: of discussed it, if those are the important things, so,
• 36:18
  Speaker 2: you know, for for that peacemaker, if it is really
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: hard for you to say no, if it's hard for
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: you to kind of introduce friction into a conversation, if
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: it's important to you that when you're communicating you can
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: kind of wrap it up with a nice boat at
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: the end, there's there's probably some peace maker peer.
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, I relate to that.
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, on the advocate side, if it's Yeah, when I'm
• 36:44
  Speaker 2: talking to somebody, what I really want to have happen
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: is that they see me as a person who's fair
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: and just and moral, and I want to see them
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: as that, and I want to catch them if they're
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: not an ask about it, probably leaning towards the advocate, okay, right,
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: the thinker. Usually the thinker's self identify pretty quickly because
• 37:04
  Speaker 2: they're like, yeah, that's meat. The facts, the logical, the
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: practice are all they're like totally, I think on the harbor.
• 37:09
  Speaker 2: You know, if you are kind of feelings driven in conversation,
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: even just noticing the words you use, if you use
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: a lot of feeling words that that's probably a good sign.
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: And sparks are fun because sparks are usually kind of
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: the life of the party and they know it. So
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: if you're kind of the person where you're like, I
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: can talk to anybody anywhere and it's always fun and
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: it's kind of moving and it's great, it's like if
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: you're that, you can kind of identify. So, I mean,
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: I think we see ourselves in so many of these,
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: but I think there's one we kind of come back to.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: And one of the things that I've noticed with a
• 37:42
  Speaker 2: lot of people who have taken the assessment and just
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: conversations is a lot of times our primary has a
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: lot to do with what our family needed from us
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: as communicators. So, for instance, I grew up in the Midwest.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: We're not really known for being big feeling people, right,
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: And most people go, oh, yeah, those people living out
• 38:01
  Speaker 2: on farms and stuff, they're they're really feelings oriented. And
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: so I grew up in a family where and this
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: isn't a good or bad thing, but just there wasn't
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: a lot of discussion of that, and so it sort
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: of felt like and this is all you know. Subconsciousness
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: was not intentional thing. But what do I add to
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: the conversation. Well, this is the thing not being said,
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: I can add. And so what I see for a
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: lot of people is their primaries really driven by what
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: was needed. And how did I learn to communicate that way?
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you became the feeling voice of the entire family.
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah. But then for other people, sometimes advocates, they're like,
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: someone needed to say something. You know, in my family system,
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: there there was no one talking about the elephant of
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: the room, and somebody needed to so I did.
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, who So, Jason on the other side of this
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: next break where I'd like to pick this back up
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: if it is okay with you, unless you think this
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: would be this would be too much, because I certainly
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: don't want to upset anybody listening to this podcast, But
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: I feel like self awareness is so important, right. What
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: I'd love to hear you talk about is how other
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: people perceive you or you know, to give people listening
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: visibility into how other people see them as communicators and relationships.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: And then what I'd love to do is talk about
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: how to communicate according to your partner style. Welcome back,
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: Jason Van Ruler. You guys were picking up again with
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: Jason Van, author of Discovering Your Communication Type. So, Jason,
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: just before the break, I asked you to illuminate the
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: spotlight of self awareness on something that but I think
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: can be hard for all of us to take on board.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: But that is how other people probably perceive us in relationships.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: And I wanted to ask about this because even though
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: this is so hard, I think that many times, all
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: of us, myself included, right, we can become very focused
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: on what other people are doing or not doing, which
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: of course is always part of the equation. But I
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: think that there needs to be visibility into how we
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: are contributing to a relationship system. And so I know
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: that this is very general and everybody's unique circumstances will
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: always be a little bit different. But in broad strokes,
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: how would somebody who is a spark, for example, how
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: are they typically perceived by others, especially in the context
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: of intimate partnerships.
• 40:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And that's such a good thing to note,
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: because you know, there's what we meant and there's what
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: people experience, and there's often a gap there, and the
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: bigger the gap, the more likely the conflict. So you know,
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: we need to understand the gap, and so I think,
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: you know what I hear when I'm working with people,
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: you know, we can go through them. But if you're
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: with say, you know, a peacemaker, you might say, they
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: don't want to have the hard conversation Jason, they just don't.
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: They don't want to get into the thing that might
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: lead to conflict. I think with the advocate, the thing
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: might be they always want to get into the hard conversation,
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: you know, they're always wanting to say the thing for
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: their think er. I think it would be sometimes the
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: experience of them is that they're kind of removed or
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: checked out, and that they're they're very you know, succinct,
• 41:45
  Speaker 2: to the point that there's not a lot of conversation
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: for the harbor, you know. I mean, we could phone
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: my wife and ask her. But I think a lot
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: of times that anything would be you know, sometimes it's
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: about the feelings, and the feelings change, and so we
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: might communicate about this feeling today and that one tomorrow,
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: and it's a little tough to keep up. And then
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: about the spark is usually they're kind of a good
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: time friend, they're kind of a good time communicator, and
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: when it gets difficult, they sometimes exit and and so
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: I always joke I've got a really good friend and
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: they're a spark, as they should be because they're just
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: a spark through and through. But if I'm talking to
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: them and I say something negative, it's pretty much a
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: cue for them to get off the phone.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: So if we're having a ten minute discussion and everything's amazing,
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: there's opportunities, and then I go, eh, yeah, I've got
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: to do my taxes on Saturday, They're like, okay, we'll
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: take care. They just it just immediately, it's like, well,
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: the energy's gone, this is not fun. I'm out. And
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: that's not you know, the message they're trying to communicate,
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: but that's often how they're experienced.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, So like that related to that because you know,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: what you're describing in some ways is you know how
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: bad it can feel to be in a relationship with
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: someone or communicating with someone, what it feels like they
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: don't care or they don't really understand you or how
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: you feel. And so for a thinker or a spark,
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: there's a vulnerability there. You can seem like you don't care,
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: you're not invested, you're not engaged, you're not trustworthy maybe
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: in some ways versus a and maybe a peacemaker too,
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: you know, just like won't engage kind of like you
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: can't connect with that person on a deep level.
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: And that I think is.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like, well, a real barrier I think to authentic
• 43:41
  Speaker 1: intimacy is that if somebody just won't even engage with you,
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: that feels bad or a voidant. But then with the
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: advocate as you call it, and also potentially that Harvard
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: big feeling person, it can be I think on both
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: of those maybe intense or with a advocate uncomfortably conflictual
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: sometimes like you know, wanting to argue with you and
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: here's why you're wrong, like that kind of.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: Thing, and enjoying it, right, enjoy Yeah, And so if
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: you're not, you know, that's not your style, that that
• 44:15
  Speaker 2: can feel like a lot.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: That's true though, And I think there's certain personality styles
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: as well where they like it, you know. And so
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: some people are coming in with a goal of reducing
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: conflict in a relationship, but they're like, no, I like
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: it when we do this, and.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: So you know that kind of want more of this.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: This is this is wonderful. I'll take seconds. This is good.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: Let's do it again. That's that's great, But that that
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: a harper. There could be this well, and I mean
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: to your point, like things change. So if you're trying
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: to understand somebody in a factual way and then their
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: feelings change, then there's like, I don't know what's happening anymore.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: But I know from my own experience with my husband,
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: there can be this like like a big feelings, you know,
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: and like because are very important and deeply felt, and
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: you know, sometimes they're fear in different places with that
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: it's okay, but it's not okay. It's not okay, Jason.
• 45:13
  Speaker 2: So yeah, okay, but but yeah, I mean, well you're
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: highlighting is so good because it's not even like Sally,
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: we're trying to be hurtful or a personal thing. Yeah,
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: just all see it differently, right, And so in that space,
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: you know, it's easy to make up a story about
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: the other person being against us when they just they
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: just don't really get it the way we do because
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: they're different. And that's a great quality because I think
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: even in my marriage, I've grown so much and been
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: so strengthened by my wife's differences. You know, some days
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: they're not my favorite right, But I mean ultimately, once
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: you get through kind of the tough stuff, it's like
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: on the other side of it, it makes me better.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: So I don't think we actually want everybody to be
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: the same. We want to embrace the difference. But sometimes
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: it's kind of tricky.
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well no, especially if you don't have visit ability
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: into those differences for sure. But like, how what a
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: fantastic skill. And I'm thinking about, you know, in the
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: spectrum of emotional intelligence skills and the adaptability and flexibility
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: that comes when you have that awareness of yourself, but
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: can also like in communication with anyone and understand, Okay,
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: here's who this person is, and here's what I probably
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: need to offer in terms of communication in order to
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: have a bond with this particular genre of human you
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: know what I mean.
• 46:32
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: You were talking a few minutes ago before the last
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: break that one of the interventions that you'll do in
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: your couple's practice is actually set people up in enactments,
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: is you know what we call this, but where you
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: get people to practice communicating in the language of their partner.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: Could we go into that and I just like paint
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: some pictures and give examples of what that might look
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: like for those of us here are thinking about like, Okay,
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: my person is this way, so what does it look like?
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: What does it sound like?
• 47:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: And this is really impactful for couples because sometimes they've
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: never gotten to hear it that way. Yeah, And so
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: what what we want to kind of set up is, Okay,
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: what are the hallmarks of their type? So what do
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: I know? And you know, we've described those a little bit.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: So if I know that about them, how do I
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: speak to that point? And this is really impactful too
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: when it comes to if someone's been hurt and you're
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: trying to apologize, you're trying to speak to some wounded
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: met I mean, because if I'm going to speak to
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: a thinker that I've hurt and I'm going to tell
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: them all about my feelings about their hurt, a thinker's
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: probably not going to resonate with that. We're going to
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: fall a little flat. It's going to fall a little flat.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: And if anything, I might even overwhelm their communication where
• 47:54
  Speaker 2: they're just like, I'm not really sure what to say here,
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: and so what I might have a couple of practices. Okay,
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: if they're a thinker, I'm going to speak to what's
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: factually true, what's actually going on with precision. And so
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: when I kind of open with, hey, this is the
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: thing I did, this is how it happened, this is
• 48:11
  Speaker 2: when it happened. I acknowledge this was the mistake. When
• 48:14
  Speaker 2: I can kind of get that level of precision, a
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: thinker goes, Okay, they get me, they get it. They're
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: starting to understand what happened.
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: Okay. One follow up question. In my experiences, sometimes in
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: relational things, facts are very subjective. So in that scenario,
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: are you seeking to communicate facts that the thinker believes,
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: because sometimes those I mean, like, it's not like math,
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: there's not an objective reality around what happened. There's different
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: points of view. So are you trying to tell the
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: thinker almost like validating the facts as they see them.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm trying to Yeah, that's a really good question.
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: I'm trying to state the facts as I'm aware of them,
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: and then I want to work them out with you.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: So if you're my person and I say here are
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: the facts as I see them, and you say, well,
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: actually I've got a different set of facts, then I
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: want to learn from you. Then I want to say, okay,
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: well let's talk about your facts, okay, which is different
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: because I think a lot of times if we didn't
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: know that you needed that, we might even argue that,
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: or we might just try to skip over it while
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: you're still stuck at that place saying I really can't
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: move forward until we do this. And so it's that
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: sort of acknowledge it. And it goes a different way too.
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: If you're a harbor with feelings, A harbor can get
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: really stuck if you won't honor how they felt. Right.
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: So if you come into that conversation you say to
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: a harbor, hey, here are the facts as I experienced them,
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: and you don't mention anything about the feeling, a harbor
• 49:50
  Speaker 2: will go, wait, wait, wait, I'm not moving forward until
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: you've said the feeling I needed to hear.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: So give us an example. So you're in a relationship
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: with a harbor, and what does that sound like? Is
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: that I understand that you felt really angry in that
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: situation or how would you frame that?
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: No, I mean that's great. It's acknowledging that feeling for them.
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: So it's either saying I anticipate I imagine you must
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: have felt, it's naming a feeling or it's just and
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: sometimes this is a struggle for people to go, I
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: don't know what they felt. I go, awesome, ask them
• 50:24
  Speaker 2: what did they feel? So it's even as opening that
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: conversation and saying I have no idea what you felt,
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: but I don't think it was good. Can you teach me?
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: And most people go, I'm happy to tell you this
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: is how I felt. Yeah, But it's kind of leading
• 50:36
  Speaker 2: with that instead of making that something that either doesn't
• 50:40
  Speaker 2: happen or gets pushed to the side, or is.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: A problem that someone feels the way they do. You know,
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: I see that sometimes as well.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: Well. You can diffuse so much conflict by just kind
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: of speaking to that thing first. Most people kind of go, okay,
• 50:54
  Speaker 2: all right, I can take a breath. They want to
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: work it out. I think if we skip over the
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: thing that they need in communication usually kind of double down.
• 51:01
  Speaker 2: Then if it's really conflict and we say, well, I'm
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: not moving forward till I get it. Yeah, And so
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: it's just so much easier to speak to it, right.
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: Okay, one last one, and then I know I need
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: to let you go because we're just about up on time,
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: and so you guys. For other examples and pro tips,
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: you're going to have to check out Jason's book. But
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: but Jason, what about how to manage this when the
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: other person in a communications system a peacemaker, a spark
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: oriented person is there's there's an avoidant quality to that, right,
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: and so making them feel comfortable in a conversation. What
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: does that look like? Is it never mind?
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: Because that we can't do that either?
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: So what was your advice about acknowledge the struggle and
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: have an invitation? So with the spark, I might say, Hey,
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: I'm aware what I'm about to say is probably not
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: super fun, and yet we need to say it, and
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: so I just want to invite you to a conversation
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: for a couple of minutes about something important or a piece.
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: Or you might say, I understand that this is not
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: going to feel peaceful or harmonious right now, and yet
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: I just want to reassure you we are okay, but
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: we have to talk about this thing. And so I
• 52:10
  Speaker 2: think just kind of speaking to the challenge, because once
• 52:12
  Speaker 2: we know other people's strengths and challenges, we can just
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: acknowledge what's true. Hey, this is you know you probably
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: don't want to have a hard conversation today and yet
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: we need to so will you join me?
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: Well, and that's so beautiful and just the way that
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: you presented it, because I think that well intends conversations.
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: You know, there's a spectrum of comfort or desire to
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: do that. I think that universally what people want is
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: a good relationship. They want to be connected, they want
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: to have that intimacy with a partner. And I think
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: when you frame having this conversation is part of having
• 52:49
  Speaker 1: a really good, healthy, strong relationship, that feels more appealing
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: and that creates a as you say, invitation.
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we want the same outcome. So if we
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: have a shared outcome, let's do it together.
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: Amazing, What a good conversation. So my guest today has
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: been Jason Van Ruler. Again. The book is Discovering Your
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: Communication Type and Jason, I wish we had more time
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: to visit. But before we wrap up, would you just
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: share with our friends here more about you know where
• 53:20
  Speaker 1: to find you where to learn more about this above
• 53:23
  Speaker 1: and beyond the book of course, because this is great
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: and just so so actionable. You know where do we
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: go from here?
• 53:29
  Speaker 2: Thank you? Yeah, you can find me on my website
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: jasonvr dot com. I've got some resources there. We're on
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: socials at Jason dot van Ruler, where I give updates
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: daily on communication and relationships.
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: Amazing. I'm going to tune into that well, Jason. This
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: is a really fun conversation, and thank you again so
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: much just for coming here, sharing your wisdom, your perspective,
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  Speaker 1: and also your actionable tips with all of us. And
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  Speaker 1: I hope everybody tries at least one of these ideas
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  Speaker 1: today in your own relationship.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: I'm so grateful. Thanks for having me, my friends.
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: If you are a regular listener of the show, you
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: know that I love ideas. They are so fantastic, so inspiring.
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  Speaker 1: And it is also true that the people who create
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  Speaker 1: the most success in life, meaning they get the outcomes
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  Speaker 1: that they want. They're not just introspective, They're not just
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  Speaker 1: in contact with their feelings. Although both of those things
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  Speaker 1: are great. The difference between people who actually do the
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  Speaker 1: things is that they are intentional and they are taking action.
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: My practice growing self. That is what we are all about.
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  Speaker 1: We help growth oriented people like you bridge that gap
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