Latest / The Book Deal / Debut author Carla Salmon on writing fiery stories for the young adult market

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Debut author Carla Salmon on writing fiery stories for the young adult market · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Tina Strachan and Madeleine Cleary: This is the Book Deal podcast where you will discover the inspiring stories, the authors behind your favorite books.
• 0:15
  Tina Strachan and Madeleine Cleary: No matter what sage of writing you are at, we've got you covered.
• 0:19
  Tina Strachan and Madeleine Cleary: I'm Tina Strachan.
• 0:20
  Tina Strachan and Madeleine Cleary: And I'm Madeleine Cleary.
• 0:21
  Tina Strachan and Madeleine Cleary: And join us as we pull back the curtain of published authors one deal at a time.
• 0:29
  Madeleine Cleary: The book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on and pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:46
  Tina Strachan: Good morning, Carla Salmon and welcome to the Book Deal podcast.
• 0:50
  Tina Strachan: Thank you so much for having me, Tina.
• 0:51
  Tina Strachan: I'm so excited.
• 0:52
  Tina Strachan: Oh, it is our pleasure.
• 0:54
  Tina Strachan: And congratulations on your debut, young adult novel.
• 0:58
  Tina Strachan: We saw what you started.
• 1:00
  Tina Strachan: Thank you.
• 1:00
  Tina Strachan: It's, um, crazy to think it's actually out in the world now.
• 1:03
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 1:04
  Tina Strachan: It's such a long buildup, isn't there?
• 1:06
  Tina Strachan: Um, but I'm gonna get into that.
• 1:07
  Tina Strachan: I wanna ask you all about how long that was.
• 1:10
  Tina Strachan: Um, but I have lots of things to ask you actually.
• 1:12
  Tina Strachan: So I was just telling you about the timeframe that we try and put on our interviews, and often we just.
• 1:17
  Tina Strachan: We go over'cause there's so many things and debut authors have so much to, to give and to share, um, to our, for our listeners.
• 1:24
  Tina Strachan: Um, but you know, you're an author and you're a teacher and you have a career in marketing.
• 1:30
  Tina Strachan: I do.
• 1:30
  Tina Strachan: Uh, which we can tell from your incredible promotional circuit that you're currently on, um, and you're a mom.
• 1:39
  Tina Strachan: And, uh, you have just published in a category that's quite, that is very dear to my heart, actually.
• 1:45
  Tina Strachan: Young adult and oh, but it's also, yeah.
• 1:48
  Tina Strachan: Incredibly hard to be published in.
• 1:51
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 1:51
  Tina Strachan: Uh, so I have lots of questions about all those things, so let's see how we go try to fit that in.
• 1:57
  Tina Strachan: Love it.
• 1:59
  Tina Strachan: So first off, color, um, can you give us your one-liner and tell of four, we saw what you started and give us a little pitch.
• 2:09
  Carla Salmon: So we saw what you started is a mystery thriller for 11 to 15 year olds set in a surf lifesaving club.
• 2:17
  Tina Strachan: That is, that sounds incredible.
• 2:19
  Tina Strachan: And I live, you know, I live on the Gold Coast, so I, so for me it had like all the things that Yeah.
• 2:24
  Tina Strachan: Felt really familiar.
• 2:26
  Tina Strachan: Um, so yeah, that's really exciting.
• 2:28
  Tina Strachan: Um, and a great one liner.
• 2:30
  Tina Strachan: I think that's, um, yeah.
• 2:31
  Tina Strachan: What would draw in lots of the kids, um, one liners are so
• 2:34
  Carla Salmon: hard.
• 2:35
  Carla Salmon: I feel like I always need to put so much more into it, because then I know I go on the spiel for the, you know, what it's actually about with the characters.
• 2:42
  Carla Salmon: But yeah, you do need to try and think of something that.
• 2:44
  Carla Salmon: Sums it up and, and is at the heart of the story, but is also going to be a little bit different and a little bit, um, you know, something that's gonna grab attention.
• 2:53
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 2:54
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 2:54
  Tina Strachan: Well, I think you've done a very good job and you've done that, but it is, it's, it's, it is a skill to create a good one-liner.
• 3:00
  Tina Strachan: Um, so.
• 3:02
  Tina Strachan: You know, we love debuts here on the pod of which you are, and we love a good old debut success story and publication journey.
• 3:10
  Tina Strachan: So can you take us on that journey?
• 3:13
  Tina Strachan: Can you start from like when you actually started writing I sure can to, yeah.
• 3:18
  Tina Strachan: To when you actually signed that elusive book deal.
• 3:21
  Carla Salmon: Yes.
• 3:22
  Carla Salmon: So it's about two and a half years ago now from, I guess, conception to the actual.
• 3:28
  Carla Salmon: Book being on the shelves.
• 3:29
  Carla Salmon: So it has been, um, a really amazing period of huge growth and learning, and it's been very exciting.
• 3:38
  Carla Salmon: A lot of hard work, but it's the type of work that, um, gives me adrenaline and really fills my cup.
• 3:44
  Carla Salmon: So it is, it has gone very quickly.
• 3:47
  Carla Salmon: But two and a half years ago, my son was 11 at the time, and he started wanting books that felt older.
• 3:54
  Carla Salmon: He wanted Eder reads with, you know, more particularly the humor.
• 3:58
  Carla Salmon: He felt he wanted something a little bit more mature and he also wanted stories that really reflected, I guess, his friendship groups and the more complex relationships.
• 4:10
  Carla Salmon: Within his own world and his own life.
• 4:13
  Carla Salmon: Um, and some of those challenges, and I was quite open for him to read up because obviously they're the ingredients that usually are part of a really wonderful young adult fiction read that is usually targeted at slightly older readers.
• 4:26
  Carla Salmon: But even those books that I was willing to, I guess, let him dabble in, even though I was a little bit nervous about some of the themes and the language in those texts, he just didn't connect with them because I guess his own experiences just didn't ring true for him at that younger age, that late tween, early teenage years.
• 4:46
  Carla Salmon: So he started, um, I guess pushing back against reading, which completely broke my heart because we worked so hard, um, to try and get our kids.
• 4:54
  Carla Salmon: To be in good reading habits, you know, from picture books through beautiful junior fiction and then middle grade.
• 5:01
  Carla Salmon: And then I do notice even at school, kids are starting to, I guess, get a little bit lost in knowing what to choose next.
• 5:08
  Carla Salmon: And so it was a trend I was noticing at school as well as a teacher.
• 5:11
  Carla Salmon: And I, you know, never thought in a million years that I would actually try and write something for that group of kids until I was, I guess, reflecting on where I was with my career as a teacher.
• 5:24
  Carla Salmon: I was acting head of year at the time and really, really busy.
• 5:28
  Carla Salmon: But when you're in a management role at school, I guess your classroom time is reduced a little, which is your creative time is being in the classroom.
• 5:37
  Carla Salmon: So I was looking for something else that was just for me, just pure joy and.
• 5:42
  Carla Salmon: That creative, um, time to yeah, look at something a little bit different.
• 5:48
  Carla Salmon: And my cousin suggested, you know, that I do something that's a side hustle that I guess compliments teaching, but is going to, I guess, meet that need that I had personally.
• 5:59
  Carla Salmon: And so yeah, over a couple of margaritas one afternoon, um, on a rainy day in Harpy Bay during the holidays.
• 6:04
  Carla Salmon: That's one of the best ideas happen.
• 6:06
  Carla Salmon: The best.
• 6:06
  Carla Salmon: It's the best.
• 6:07
  Carla Salmon: She's actually printed a photo for me of the, of that day and, and sent it through as my, as a gift when I was published, so it was so beautiful.
• 6:15
  Carla Salmon: Anyway, um, but yeah, so then she's just suggested, you know, what about writing?
• 6:20
  Carla Salmon: And again, the actual novel didn't really come into play until I was driving home from that holiday a few days later.
• 6:27
  Carla Salmon: And I thought, well, you know, if I was going to write a book, what would it be?
• 6:32
  Carla Salmon: Where would it be?
• 6:33
  Carla Salmon: And you know, thinking of my son and also my daughter at the time who was 13 and really loving mysteries.
• 6:40
  Carla Salmon: Um, if I was to write that kind of book, where would I set it?
• 6:43
  Carla Salmon: And for some reason, the Red Sand Surf Lifesaving Club just kind of popped into my head and I thought, well, I can't really think of too many books or any books actually in young adult fiction that is positioned as a mystery in a surf lifesaving club.
• 6:57
  Carla Salmon: Maybe that's something that's different and it obviously is open for boys and girls.
• 7:02
  Carla Salmon: It's a sport that offers.
• 7:03
  Carla Salmon: You know, a wide range of participants, all ages, all stages.
• 7:07
  Carla Salmon: Maybe I can work with this.
• 7:08
  Carla Salmon: And then from there, I, I guess, started trying to write a story and I had no idea what I was doing.
• 7:15
  Carla Salmon: And I remember, you know, taking my, I think it was about 20 or 30,000 words, which I thought was a book at that point, um, into school and giving it to one of my beautiful, trusted teaching colleagues.
• 7:26
  Carla Salmon: And said, you know, would you mind to have a read of this draft?
• 7:30
  Carla Salmon: You know, I don't know really what I'm doing, but do you think it would be okay?
• 7:32
  Carla Salmon: And she's like, oh, you mean your manuscript?
• 7:34
  Carla Salmon: I'm like, what's the manuscript?
• 7:36
  Carla Salmon: I don't know.
• 7:37
  Carla Salmon: Isn't that what you do later?
• 7:39
  Carla Salmon: But anyway, so, or even the language of the industry, I had no idea about, but she read it for me and she was very kind because I certainly can't reread that draft now because it's dreadful.
• 7:49
  Carla Salmon: It's truly dreadful.
• 7:50
  Carla Salmon: Um, and the story has changed so much.
• 7:53
  Carla Salmon: Being the wonderful kind teacher she is with constructive feedback, she said, yeah, look, I think there's something there.
• 7:58
  Carla Salmon: I love the idea.
• 8:00
  Carla Salmon: You should actually do some courses and, and find out more about it.
• 8:04
  Carla Salmon: And that was when I first started finding this amazing community, um, that we have in Brisbane, but also all throughout Australia.
• 8:13
  Carla Salmon: These, you know, this writing community where authors are.
• 8:16
  Carla Salmon: Available.
• 8:17
  Carla Salmon: Um, and you can talk to them and you can find out and go to their launches and attend workshop visits, um, and people offer to, to read your work once you have formed really wonderful relationships.
• 8:30
  Carla Salmon: So yeah, from there then I just got completely addicted, um, to learning as much as I could.
• 8:38
  Carla Salmon: Going and, and chatting to people.
• 8:40
  Carla Salmon: And I guess it was probably about 12 months before I had an actual manuscript that was suitable for a young adult pitch.
• 8:50
  Carla Salmon: Um, and then it was another author who actually offered to read it for me and she said.
• 8:56
  Carla Salmon: I love it, but that inciting incident that's, oh, sorry.
• 8:59
  Carla Salmon: The inciting incident is, is too slow.
• 9:01
  Carla Salmon: I think you should bring the really big, um, event at the end that's in the climax to the very beginning of the book.
• 9:09
  Carla Salmon: And I thought that's a wonderful idea.
• 9:11
  Carla Salmon: But I only had three days before the closing date for, for the agent I really wanted to submit to Annabel Barker, um, actually closed.
• 9:20
  Carla Salmon: So I basically said goodbye to my family, bunker down.
• 9:24
  Carla Salmon: Rewrote the whole book, kind of, I guess, with unpicking and retreading the threads and managed to get it into Annabel and.
• 9:31
  Carla Salmon: Sure, sure enough, um, a month later I heard back from her saying that she would like to request the full manuscript and then of course it went from there.
• 9:40
  Carla Salmon: So, oh my gosh, color.
• 9:42
  Tina Strachan: There's so many incredible things about that, but I'm mortified about the three days of pulling it apart.
• 9:46
  Tina Strachan: I have to say holy smoke.
• 9:48
  Tina Strachan: It was intense.
• 9:48
  Tina Strachan: That's hard.
• 9:49
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 9:49
  Tina Strachan: And it's not even just moving the inside.
• 9:51
  Tina Strachan: 'cause a lot of people start the book in the wrong spot.
• 9:54
  Tina Strachan: Exactly.
• 9:55
  Tina Strachan: Um, like a couple of chapters too early and so it's.
• 9:58
  Tina Strachan: It's bringing forward, you know, you can get rid of a couple of chapters at the beginning.
• 10:02
  Tina Strachan: Um, I've actually even just done that recently myself, but they're still important.
• 10:05
  Tina Strachan: You have to write them.
• 10:06
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 10:06
  Tina Strachan: So don't be discouraged if that's what you've done, because that's almost you getting it out on the page.
• 10:11
  Tina Strachan: Right.
• 10:12
  Tina Strachan: And, um.
• 10:14
  Tina Strachan: And, and actually working out your characters and your setting.
• 10:17
  Tina Strachan: So it's important, but you just gotta, you gotta kill those darlings and just start off in that action.
• 10:23
  Tina Strachan: But I've never had to bring something right from the end to the very beginning.
• 10:28
  Tina Strachan: And that is, and of course when you do that, there's those threads, like you said, unpacking and picking and, and just the thought of, um, yeah.
• 10:36
  Tina Strachan: Trying to follow those threads through is, um.
• 10:40
  Carla Salmon: Yeah, heart very hard.
• 10:42
  Carla Salmon: It's crazy.
• 10:42
  Carla Salmon: So I hope I don't have to do it again, but it was so worth it.
• 10:46
  Carla Salmon: I mean, obviously I would do it 10,000 times over to have that opportunity, you know, to, for the agent to read it and, and be interested in it.
• 10:56
  Carla Salmon: And of course then there was so much work that was then done with the publishers after that.
• 11:00
  Carla Salmon: Um, but I think it's that whole idea of if you get an opportunity, you've just gotta grab it.
• 11:06
  Carla Salmon: Um, and I guess that's.
• 11:07
  Carla Salmon: Always been my mindset when I first started, you've got nothing to lose.
• 11:12
  Carla Salmon: Mm-hmm.
• 11:12
  Carla Salmon: It's, you know, it's, it's your time and everything's an opportunity to learn more.
• 11:16
  Carla Salmon: Just go for it.
• 11:17
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 11:18
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 11:19
  Tina Strachan: And, um, did, did they, so there's a reason for this question.
• 11:24
  Tina Strachan: Did you find after you submitted and Anabel got back to you, did you find some thread that hadn't actually been like, picked up?
• 11:34
  Carla Salmon: Oh, definitely.
• 11:35
  Carla Salmon: And look, yeah, the whole book then, you know, as we, as I learned how to write a novel still throughout that process, um, was, was continuous right up until publication.
• 11:48
  Carla Salmon: So Annabel then came back to me with her suggestions, um, and we workshopped a little bit further before we went actually out to market.
• 11:58
  Carla Salmon: And then once.
• 11:59
  Carla Salmon: It was then signed with the publisher and we started that, um, that structural editing process.
• 12:05
  Carla Salmon: There were significant threads that changed again throughout those edits.
• 12:11
  Carla Salmon: Um, the story was at the heart and soul of the story.
• 12:13
  Carla Salmon: It was always consistent.
• 12:15
  Carla Salmon: Mm-hmm.
• 12:15
  Carla Salmon: Um, because I wanted that.
• 12:17
  Carla Salmon: Edgy teen voice.
• 12:19
  Carla Salmon: Mm-hmm.
• 12:20
  Carla Salmon: Um, something that was, I guess, quintessentially Australian and had those, those dual points of view.
• 12:26
  Carla Salmon: So those characters were always quite solid.
• 12:29
  Carla Salmon: But definitely we enhanced the characterization of.
• 12:34
  Carla Salmon: Both, um, milli and Otto throughout that editing process.
• 12:37
  Carla Salmon: But in terms of the extra characters and the mystery itself, the person who was first responsible for, you know, for the crimes in the initial edits is no longer even in the book.
• 12:49
  Carla Salmon: Mm-hmm.
• 12:49
  Carla Salmon: So we, um, we rewrote, I guess, the start and the finish multiple times throughout the process.
• 12:56
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 12:56
  Tina Strachan: And I love that and it's really important.
• 12:58
  Tina Strachan: It's really important and I wanted to just chat about.
• 13:01
  Tina Strachan: Because I think a lot of people put all this emphasis on being absolutely 100% perfect with their manuscript.
• 13:10
  Tina Strachan: And of course you have to make it as polished as you could be.
• 13:13
  Tina Strachan: You would have thought at the end of those three days that everything was smooth.
• 13:18
  Tina Strachan: You, because you're in such a, you such tunnel vision and you've just looked at it so much, you're not picking up things anymore.
• 13:24
  Tina Strachan: You a hundred percent need new eyes.
• 13:26
  Tina Strachan: Um, and.
• 13:27
  Tina Strachan: Things do still get picked, picked up and worked on with the agent and the publisher.
• 13:32
  Tina Strachan: And maybe it's, you know, timeline issues or, uh, making sure the, that the threads, uh, all match up again because it's been moved.
• 13:41
  Tina Strachan: Or there's characters, like you said, that completely come out.
• 13:44
  Tina Strachan: I don't even know how, how you start with that or come, come in.
• 13:47
  Tina Strachan: Like I've heard people write characters in and, um, I think that's important to, you know, kind of for people who.
• 13:56
  Tina Strachan: Are just still tinkering.
• 13:58
  Tina Strachan: Stop tinkering.
• 13:59
  Carla Salmon: Absolutely.
• 13:59
  Tina Strachan: Because like you said, it's the heart and the soul, isn't it?
• 14:02
  Tina Strachan: That they're looking for, they have read your work, they know that you can write, um, but it's the heart and the soul of the story that they're looking for and the message and.
• 14:11
  Tina Strachan: Everything else creates that package.
• 14:14
  Tina Strachan: Um, there's multiple, I guess, points that they're looking for and values that they're looking for.
• 14:19
  Tina Strachan: Uh, they a hundred percent understand that you can fix a character, you can fix a plot, you can flick, fix a timeline, but everything else needs to be there.
• 14:27
  Tina Strachan: Um, yes, I agree.
• 14:28
  Tina Strachan: Important.
• 14:29
  Carla Salmon: I totally agree.
• 14:30
  Carla Salmon: And I think also, I guess what I focus on as well is the characters being, um, as fleshed out as possible and as real as possible.
• 14:41
  Carla Salmon: Because I feel like it's a bit like, you know that saying, you know, you don't remember what people, what someone did, but you remember the way they, that they made you feel.
• 14:49
  Carla Salmon: Yes.
• 14:49
  Carla Salmon: It's a bit like that with books, I think, because we don't necessarily remember exactly the plot beats or the moments in a story, but we fall in love with the characters so.
• 15:00
  Carla Salmon: Whilst of course, you know, you, you might adapt them and, and develop and deepen their character arcs their characteristics and who they are.
• 15:10
  Carla Salmon: If you can flesh that out as much as possible, then I totally agree.
• 15:13
  Carla Salmon: Then it's kind of like playing with Barbie dolls, you know, like you're back, you're back as a kid and you're just changing the story of as to what these characters are doing.
• 15:22
  Carla Salmon: Mm-hmm.
• 15:22
  Carla Salmon: Um.
• 15:22
  Carla Salmon: I think that is also what, what, what publishers and agents are looking for is, you know, have we got really, have we got characters here that will really connect with people?
• 15:33
  Carla Salmon: And you know, that's the feedback that I'm receiving through my, through my drafting process.
• 15:38
  Carla Salmon: And now when the book's out on shelves is how much people can.
• 15:42
  Carla Salmon: To those characters, and if they don't, then that's a real problem.
• 15:46
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 15:47
  Tina Strachan: I a hundred percent agree with you, and I remember thinking this just recently.
• 15:52
  Tina Strachan: I finished a book, it was a great book.
• 15:54
  Tina Strachan: I really enjoyed it.
• 15:56
  Tina Strachan: I literally put it down and the next day I was thinking about it, which is a sign of a good book, right?
• 16:00
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 16:00
  Tina Strachan: Could it tell you what a single name of any of the characters were?
• 16:03
  Tina Strachan: Just like, you just gloss over that.
• 16:05
  Tina Strachan: But I remember how it made me feel and I remember how it made me think about it, and that's important.
• 16:09
  Tina Strachan: But yeah, I couldn't.
• 16:11
  Tina Strachan: Couldn't tell you now half the characters that I've read because, and we spend so much time agonizing over names and things, don't we?
• 16:17
  Tina Strachan: No one cares.
• 16:17
  Tina Strachan: Absolutely.
• 16:18
  Carla Salmon: No cares.
• 16:19
  Carla Salmon: No, that's exactly right.
• 16:21
  Carla Salmon: I mean, I'm sure they do all that's more details.
• 16:23
  Tina Strachan: That's right.
• 16:24
  Tina Strachan: Uh, that's amazing.
• 16:25
  Tina Strachan: So, such an incredible story.
• 16:27
  Tina Strachan: Um, and signing with Annabelle Barker, who's amazing.
• 16:32
  Tina Strachan: Oh, she's, that's, yeah.
• 16:33
  Tina Strachan: She's like a, a dream agent.
• 16:35
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 16:35
  Tina Strachan: And can you tell us what happened after that?
• 16:37
  Carla Salmon: I can.
• 16:38
  Carla Salmon: Yeah.
• 16:38
  Carla Salmon: So, um, so we, I signed with Annabel and then yeah, we workshopped the manuscript for a little bit.
• 16:45
  Carla Salmon: Um, and then, you know, you, you get that message from her that says, okay, we're gonna send it out.
• 16:50
  Carla Salmon: And, you know, it's the, I think that was probably the most exciting thing that has happened so far, because it's that initial, oh my goodness.
• 17:00
  Carla Salmon: This is actually going to be read by these incredible people in the publishing world.
• 17:06
  Carla Salmon: Um, and it, it's happening.
• 17:08
  Carla Salmon: And so I was incredibly nervous and that that actual process then takes a few months.
• 17:14
  Carla Salmon: Um, and so she sent it out to a number of publishers.
• 17:18
  Carla Salmon: I think three of them, um, came back and said, look, it's just not quite right for us.
• 17:22
  Carla Salmon: But three did come back and said, yes, please.
• 17:25
  Carla Salmon: We would, we would like to talk further.
• 17:27
  Carla Salmon: Um, and they were incredible.
• 17:30
  Carla Salmon: Names and just dream publishers.
• 17:32
  Carla Salmon: And they were all spectacular.
• 17:34
  Carla Salmon: And I then had meetings, zoom calls with each of the publishers, um, and they talked to me about what they thought the book could be and what I could be for them as well and where I would fit.
• 17:48
  Carla Salmon: Um, and, you know, that was surreal.
• 17:51
  Carla Salmon: That was completely ridiculous.
• 17:52
  Carla Salmon: I remember hanging up from that call, just going, you know, each one going, sorry, is this actually, is this actually real?
• 17:58
  Carla Salmon: Um, it's the dream.
• 17:59
  Carla Salmon: It was amazing.
• 18:00
  Carla Salmon: And you know, I guess that is the benefit of, of having someone, um, who as an agent, able to negotiate and, and put those opportunities in place.
• 18:11
  Carla Salmon: Um.
• 18:11
  Carla Salmon: Yeah, and you know, each, it wouldn't have mattered which one, um, I went with in the end, like it, in terms of they all had wonderful opportunities.
• 18:21
  Carla Salmon: I ended up signing with Pam McMillan because the publisher I met with there just really, I guess, connected with me personally, and I just felt like.
• 18:33
  Carla Salmon: They were gonna look after me as an author as well as with all of my books, um, or hopefully more of my books.
• 18:40
  Carla Salmon: Um, and the idea initially for the story was always that I wanted to have it, um, specific for I guess that young, those young teens, early tweens, sorry, late tweens age group, and.
• 18:55
  Carla Salmon: In that group though, I want it to be as edgy as possible and to really push it within those boundaries so that yes, parents can give it to teenagers to read and allow them to read it.
• 19:08
  Carla Salmon: Completely independently and feel comfortable that the themes and the language is age appropriate.
• 19:13
  Carla Salmon: And also for teacher librarians, I think we have to remember that with teacher librarians working in schools and we're, you know, we're accountable to parents.
• 19:22
  Carla Salmon: Um, it is tricky sometimes recommending books that are.
• 19:27
  Carla Salmon: You know, obvi for older, older children to read.
• 19:30
  Carla Salmon: Um, so I really wanted to offer that because I, I, that was what I was wanting for my own son at the time and, and the students at my school.
• 19:37
  Carla Salmon: Um, but I also know that these kids wanted something that felt older.
• 19:43
  Carla Salmon: And so that meant that I needed help to try and make this probably quite, the story was a little bit gentler at the beginning, um, and.
• 19:52
  Carla Salmon: Pam McMillan just said, I think we can take this further.
• 19:56
  Carla Salmon: We can make it grittier.
• 19:57
  Carla Salmon: We can make it punchier and edgier and let's, you know, push it right to the very edge that we can within this age group that you want to write for.
• 20:07
  Carla Salmon: And I just thought, yes.
• 20:08
  Carla Salmon: That's, that's what I want.
• 20:09
  Carla Salmon: That's exactly what I want.
• 20:10
  Carla Salmon: Um, and delightfully that has been the process all the way along.
• 20:15
  Carla Salmon: It is, it's been one of true collaboration.
• 20:19
  Carla Salmon: Um, all of my ideas, uh, taken really seriously, right from, you know, the writing stage through to the cover design, through to, um, you know, the notes that go in the back of the book to the kids that we got for, you know, endorsements.
• 20:32
  Carla Salmon: So at every point of the way.
• 20:35
  Carla Salmon: Um, I felt like it's just been such an amazing teamwork, um, situation, which I'm, I'm really grateful for.
• 20:43
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 20:44
  Tina Strachan: Um, can I ask practically when, and for authors that are listening who want to write some ya or, um.
• 20:52
  Tina Strachan: Some older middle grade and there's that sort of crossover isn't there in the middle.
• 20:56
  Tina Strachan: Mm.
• 20:56
  Tina Strachan: And making it grittier and punchier.
• 20:59
  Tina Strachan: What does that look like?
• 21:00
  Tina Strachan: Like how can you make something grittier and punchier?
• 21:03
  Carla Salmon: Mm.
• 21:04
  Carla Salmon: I think it comes down to the language that you are using when you are speaking in the character voice.
• 21:10
  Carla Salmon: Um, so I chose to write in first person present tense, um, because I also love books.
• 21:16
  Carla Salmon: That are written in that, um, in that style.
• 21:19
  Carla Salmon: So I guess a Holly Jackson voice minus some of the, the older, more mature language and, um, some of the themes and, and actions that happen in those types of texts.
• 21:31
  Carla Salmon: So I guess I was trying to.
• 21:33
  Carla Salmon: Think about how I can use language that is shorter sentences, sharper sentences for boys particularly.
• 21:41
  Carla Salmon: I think that's, and I really was really trying to listen to the teens in my life, um, and to That's right,
• 21:47
  Tina Strachan: bro.
• 21:47
  Tina Strachan: A
• 21:48
  Carla Salmon: fair second sentence.
• 21:49
  Carla Salmon: That's exactly right.
• 21:50
  Carla Salmon: Well, I got in in trouble for that.
• 21:52
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 21:52
  Tina Strachan: Well, yeah, that's another thing to touch on, not being too slanging and not, and, and words that can date.
• 21:59
  Carla Salmon: That's right.
• 21:59
  Carla Salmon: And actually the teens don't want that.
• 22:01
  Carla Salmon: So it was my own son who said, oh my gosh, that is so cringe.
• 22:05
  Carla Salmon: You like, that's what you sound like.
• 22:06
  Carla Salmon: I know I did.
• 22:07
  Carla Salmon: I'm like, I'm just mirroring exactly what you talk, how you say it.
• 22:11
  Carla Salmon: Um, and, but I did need to be conscious of that.
• 22:13
  Carla Salmon: So whilst they wanted to be a reflection of how they speak, they.
• 22:19
  Carla Salmon: It actually can't be a true reflection.
• 22:21
  Carla Salmon: So it's this really weird kind of fine line that you play in.
• 22:25
  Carla Salmon: Um, and I think that's the word that I wanna focus on.
• 22:28
  Carla Salmon: If we are writing for teens and tweens, you have to play, you have to play with the words, and you have to think, um, how can I make this sound?
• 22:38
  Carla Salmon: Fun and a little bit edgier and cooler with the way that I'm mixing it up.
• 22:43
  Carla Salmon: So I play with hyphens, like a hyphenate, bunches of words together for the girls.
• 22:46
  Carla Salmon: 'cause you know, if we've, we've got young teen girls, they use four or five adjectives in a row.
• 22:52
  Carla Salmon: Um, or they string their, their words together.
• 22:55
  Carla Salmon: They're not necessarily speaking in a really cohesive, fluent pattern, so you can't write a whole sentence like that.
• 23:02
  Carla Salmon: But throwing in a few of those every now and again, I really, I like to play with that.
• 23:06
  Carla Salmon: Um, for the, and like I said, for the boys, shorter, sharper, edgier, keeping it really practical.
• 23:13
  Carla Salmon: And also removing some of the technical language.
• 23:17
  Carla Salmon: So, you know, with when my son's editing my book now, um, you know, one of his, his quotes from the book two that he's reading at the moment was, okay, enough with the environmental facts, it's sounding too educational.
• 23:30
  Tina Strachan: Mm-hmm.
• 23:30
  Tina Strachan: Yes.
• 23:30
  Tina Strachan: And so
• 23:30
  Carla Salmon: they see through it and they don't, because they don't give each other.
• 23:35
  Carla Salmon: You know, I guess factual advice about a setting.
• 23:38
  Carla Salmon: Do they, they just aren't yet?
• 23:40
  Carla Salmon: No.
• 23:41
  Tina Strachan: Do boys even talk to each other?
• 23:42
  Carla Salmon: Sometimes I wonder.
• 23:43
  Carla Salmon: I don't know.
• 23:44
  Carla Salmon: They just, and that's the thing, they're so quiet sometimes.
• 23:46
  Carla Salmon: Sometimes it can be.
• 23:48
  Carla Salmon: Um, and so trying to thread that in instead to descriptive sentences through the character's eyes.
• 23:56
  Carla Salmon: But again, even limiting that, so focusing as well on pace and keeping that pace really nice and, um, tight, I think is, is a real key point for writing for, um, young teens and tweens because they, they will simply put it down.
• 24:13
  Carla Salmon: They, they used to, like, they're in a world where they, if they don't like what they're watching, they swipe to the next thing, or they flick the channel.
• 24:21
  Carla Salmon: They don't even have to watch for, you know, the next Dawson's Creek episode to drop in a week.
• 24:25
  Carla Salmon: Do they like, they just.
• 24:27
  Carla Salmon: Ads gonna switch it on to another series, there's no ads.
• 24:30
  Carla Salmon: Um, and so I think as writers, we need to be conscious of that and aim to do everything we can to give them the opportunity to keep turning the page.
• 24:43
  Tanya Scott: Hi listeners.
• 24:44
  Tanya Scott: I'm Tanya Scott and my debut novel Stillwater is out on the 29th of July with Alan and Unwin Stillwater's a crime thriller.
• 24:51
  Tanya Scott: It's about Luke, a young man who's recently returned to his home city of Melbourne after several years running away from his troubled early life and his chaotic father.
• 25:00
  Tanya Scott: He's keeping a low profile, but he's broke.
• 25:02
  Tanya Scott: His car's dying and his university exams are hanging over his head.
• 25:06
  Tanya Scott: Luke's quiet.
• 25:06
  Tanya Scott: Life is thrown into turmoil when Gus Alberici, the criminal he worked for as a teenager, tracks him down and wants him back on the job.
• 25:13
  Tanya Scott: And Gus is not the kind of bloke who takes no for an answer.
• 25:17
  Tanya Scott: Luke is roped into a hunt for his estranged father who's vanished, along with a chunk of Gus's cash.
• 25:22
  Tanya Scott: In the meantime, Luke's navigating a new relationship with a flamboyant actor, and he's pulled into her family dysfunction while grappling with people and events from a past he'd much rather leave behind him and holding on tight to secrets that just might get him killed.
• 25:37
  Tanya Scott: Stillwater's a story about a reluctant criminal.
• 25:39
  Tanya Scott: It's about not allowing your past to define you and about learning to be the Stillwater when the sea around you is churning.
• 25:46
  Tanya Scott: I hope you enjoy it.
• 25:52
  Tina Strachan: it's a real epidemic at the moment, isn't it?
• 25:54
  Tina Strachan: Um, reading amongst kids, but mostly boys is a real issue and they drop out of that, like even middle grade with just, they're just dropping out of, and I guess for listeners who aren't aware, middle grade, so the difference between.
• 26:08
  Tina Strachan: Middle grade, and then there's junior fiction as well, which is younger, but middle grade is, um, it can be eight or nine plus usually, um, up to about 12 characters, generally speaking.
• 26:21
  Tina Strachan: And there's always, you know, uh, exceptions to the rule, but generally speaking, uh, protagonists can't really, or shouldn't really be teenagers.
• 26:28
  Tina Strachan: So then 13 and up kind of becomes, um.
• 26:33
  Tina Strachan: Young adult, yes, but thirteens still quite young.
• 26:36
  Tina Strachan: Um, but, so then young adult is teenage protagonists, but that can be so wide and so varied as well, you know, 13 through to, you know, 19 even guess 19, 20.
• 26:48
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 26:48
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 26:49
  Tina Strachan: And the kids do like to read up and from all ages, from young ages, like generally their cha, the characters are a couple of years older.
• 26:56
  Tina Strachan: So there's that real in between period where, you know, you have 11 and 12 year olds wanting to read up and then you just, their only options are these, ya sometimes just maybe a little bit inappropriate or, or not.
• 27:11
  Tina Strachan: They're not ready for it.
• 27:12
  Tina Strachan: Like you were saying, it's, it's kind of a real gap.
• 27:14
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 27:15
  Tina Strachan: Um, I've heard recently that the, the girls are reading up, but not just like way up, like out of ya.
• 27:21
  Tina Strachan: They're reading like Col, Colleen Hoover and things like that.
• 27:25
  Tina Strachan: They're just really, um, whether or not they're ready for it, I don't, I don't know.
• 27:29
  Tina Strachan: Or is it just they're so used, what they're seeing these days and hearing and watching is so beyond.
• 27:36
  Tina Strachan: What we are used to them, so, so they're so used to it and it's not as.
• 27:41
  Tina Strachan: Kind of shocking or for them and yeah, reading up and I, and I can only imagine what's I, I don't meet Colleen Hoover, but I can only imagine there's a lot of romance in
• 27:51
  Carla Salmon: those ones, right?
• 27:52
  Carla Salmon: I think so, yeah.
• 27:53
  Carla Salmon: And I think, I think sometimes in middle grade, the moral of the story.
• 27:58
  Carla Salmon: Um, can be really clear.
• 28:00
  Carla Salmon: Mm-hmm.
• 28:00
  Carla Salmon: And if you've got a more mature kid, they, they don't, they, they really don't wanna be told what to do or, and they don't want to be feeling like a parent or a teacher is speaking to them through the character voices.
• 28:14
  Carla Salmon: Um, and, you know, there's wonderful, wonderful middle grade.
• 28:16
  Carla Salmon: I'm such a huge advocate for middle grade, um, who, which doesn't do that.
• 28:21
  Carla Salmon: And they do it really well.
• 28:22
  Carla Salmon: Of course.
• 28:22
  Carla Salmon: I mean, your own books Tina are, are fantastic.
• 28:25
  Carla Salmon: Um, but it is a fine line, right?
• 28:27
  Carla Salmon: Because.
• 28:27
  Carla Salmon: You want it to be somewhat wholesome and to have a lesson that is.
• 28:34
  Carla Salmon: Um, at the end of it that kids can take away, because that's the whole point of books, right?
• 28:37
  Carla Salmon: We wanna build empathy and offer something that makes'em a slightly better human in some sort of way, especially in those younger years.
• 28:45
  Carla Salmon: And for some of those kids who are reading middle grade, uh, younger as well, and they're wanting those beautiful, gentler, um, and, you know, fun reads.
• 28:56
  Carla Salmon: So it's tricky when you get a kid who's.
• 28:59
  Carla Salmon: Old enough to read or a very good reader to read up, but not, you know, they see through sometimes the morals and those types of things, but they're definitely not ready for that high level complex, um, mature themes in the older YA and, and in just normal fiction as well, of course.
• 29:18
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, it's really tricky and I have heard an agent say before, you know, a, a kid can smell a parent or an adult from a mile away.
• 29:27
  Tina Strachan: So if you make any of your words set, like they don't want a mom coming through to them while they, while they're reading.
• 29:33
  Tina Strachan: Um, so that's really important too, just.
• 29:35
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, absolutely.
• 29:36
  Tina Strachan: In young adult, definitely.
• 29:38
  Tina Strachan: Um, making sure that that doesn't shine through, but like you said, yeah, middle grade there, I think, I mean, I'm not an expert on the genre, but I, yeah, I think most of the time it's expected that there's a little bit of a learning, a little bit of a message at the end, but absolutely.
• 29:52
  Tina Strachan: Still you can't make it.
• 29:54
  Tina Strachan: Feel like they're being How explicit?
• 29:57
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 29:57
  Tina Strachan: Educated.
• 29:58
  Tina Strachan: Uh, definitely.
• 29:59
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 29:59
  Tina Strachan: You have to hide it.
• 30:00
  Carla Salmon: Well, they're wanting to read for, we we're wanting them to read for fun and for pleasure, right?
• 30:04
  Carla Salmon: Mm-hmm.
• 30:04
  Carla Salmon: So I guess in that time, they're not in a, an educational mindset that they're willing to take in, um, I guess the life lessons necessarily.
• 30:14
  Carla Salmon: Um, certainly explicitly.
• 30:16
  Carla Salmon: So yeah.
• 30:16
  Carla Salmon: We, we need to thread it through with invisible thread.
• 30:19
  Carla Salmon: Yes.
• 30:20
  Carla Salmon: Yes,
• 30:21
  Tina Strachan: that's right.
• 30:22
  Tina Strachan: So, uh, like I said, ya is, um, very close to my heart.
• 30:27
  Tina Strachan: I love reading it and I love writing it as well.
• 30:30
  Tina Strachan: Um, but it is, uh, hard to, to get across the line.
• 30:34
  Tina Strachan: Multiple publishers and agents just say, it's just really tricky.
• 30:38
  Tina Strachan: Um, did you get any, sorry, could you.
• 30:41
  Tina Strachan: Just tell us a little bit about your journey with that and any thoughts on the market and have you had any, you know, conversations with, you know, publishers and agents, um, that can offer some advice to people who do love to write ya and r writing ya and trying to get their ya across the line.
• 30:57
  Tina Strachan: And, you know, I've, I know people who've been told, just age it down.
• 31:00
  Tina Strachan: Just make all the characters, age them down.
• 31:03
  Tina Strachan: Get rid of any romance.
• 31:05
  Tina Strachan: 'cause also romance is not, is something that's.
• 31:07
  Tina Strachan: Not usually in middle grade.
• 31:10
  Tina Strachan: Um, and just age it down or age it up.
• 31:14
  Tina Strachan: Just make them adults and.
• 31:16
  Tina Strachan: So there's again, this gap.
• 31:20
  Tina Strachan: Um, any advice or thoughts on that?
• 31:22
  Carla Salmon: Yeah.
• 31:22
  Carla Salmon: Yes, and I was, um, encouraged by the one publisher to potentially age it down as well.
• 31:28
  Carla Salmon: So I did receive that and I took it seriously because I understand.
• 31:32
  Carla Salmon: Um, it's partly, I think, to do with.
• 31:34
  Carla Salmon: The reach to schools, so we know, which is an absolute tragedy, that schools, um, and all librarians in schools are becoming fewer and fewer.
• 31:45
  Carla Salmon: So, you know, not, there's so many high schools now that don't actually have teacher librarians, um, which, you know, breaks my heart completely.
• 31:55
  Carla Salmon: But it's a reality and hopefully we can change that as a society.
• 31:59
  Carla Salmon: And we've got wonderful organizations fighting really hard to make sure that there are librarians still in every single school because you know, we know the stats on reading and we know how in absolutely crucial it is for every part of literacy, but also as a space for a community and just to offer.
• 32:18
  Carla Salmon: So many wonderful things.
• 32:19
  Carla Salmon: So we know all about that.
• 32:21
  Carla Salmon: But as well, the majority of teacher librarians are in primary schools.
• 32:25
  Carla Salmon: So if we are aiming to, um, from a marketing perspective, try and reach, um, our books into schools and to have that, um, I guess that market be accessible as widely as possible.
• 32:39
  Carla Salmon: I understand that publishers are saying, well, yeah, we've still got that, that in, um, at that primary school age.
• 32:46
  Carla Salmon: And also parents are still buying books a lot for children in that younger age category because the kids are still reading, I guess, at that, at that.
• 32:55
  Carla Salmon: At that age group, once kids tend to get their first phone, they're catching the bus home, they're involved in a whole bunch of co-curricular, um, you know, parents themselves are really, really busy with teenagers.
• 33:09
  Carla Salmon: I, myself, as a parent, definitely don't, um, I guess, hassle my kids as much to try and designate that reading time.
• 33:19
  Carla Salmon: And that's as an author and an English teacher.
• 33:20
  Carla Salmon: So, so it's, it's really challenging, I think.
• 33:24
  Carla Salmon: And so I, I understand why numbers tend to drop off a little bit in that, you know, older, older tween, young teen age group.
• 33:32
  Carla Salmon: Because books are competing with so many things.
• 33:35
  Carla Salmon: Uh, in saying that though, that's why I think it's absolutely crucial that any books that we do put in the hands of those young teens, it has to ring true for them and it has to hit home and it has to grab them so that they, we start getting that really positive experience again then, and then of course the demand increases.
• 33:55
  Carla Salmon: Mm-hmm.
• 33:55
  Carla Salmon: Um, so yeah, I think if you are aiming to write.
• 34:00
  Carla Salmon: If you've got a beautiful ya that you're really passionate about, thinking about, well what is, what is the market in beyond just your own?
• 34:09
  Carla Salmon: I guess publishing world, how can you make connections beyond who you know within the writing community?
• 34:17
  Carla Salmon: So for example, I've looked to influencers, teen influencers, and who can I reach and who can I team up with, um, who are creative types.
• 34:26
  Carla Salmon: And who have got, you know, fabulous followings as well who are working with parents.
• 34:31
  Carla Salmon: Um, and that's been a really big positive because all of a sudden you've got people who wouldn't normally follow authors, for example, on different various social media platforms.
• 34:40
  Carla Salmon: They're becoming aware and most kids don't know that you can go and see an author present at a launch or that they are, that, that, you know, our bookstores and our libraries are doing all of these fantastic events.
• 34:53
  Carla Salmon: They actually don't know about it.
• 34:55
  Carla Salmon: Especially if they don't have a librarian in their school promoting these things.
• 34:59
  Carla Salmon: Um, so yeah, I think thinking creatively about how you can come up with a plan to reach people.
• 35:06
  Carla Salmon: Um, I did talk about that when, um, you know, during the process, um, when, when the auction was happening and who I was actually going to, to go with about how to reach people beyond.
• 35:19
  Carla Salmon: I guess what the norm is, um, to try and maximize all the connections that we had between us.
• 35:27
  Carla Salmon: So I think, yeah, if we can think ourselves, who else is out there that can draw kids back into making reading cool and fun, let's connect and let's work with these people and the influencers who are in these kids' world.
• 35:41
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, because they play such a big role for them, don't they?
• 35:44
  Tina Strachan: That's where they're getting these words from and, um, all the things that they're asking to do and have and buy is all.
• 35:51
  Tina Strachan: Coming from that whole different type of marketing that we were ever brought up with.
• 35:55
  Tina Strachan: Um, though I do think for girls it's a bit easier because it's a bit more accepted and they, you know, they love a good sort of book talk sort of situation and book influencers, especially if you write romantic or Yeah.
• 36:09
  Tina Strachan: Um, fantasy for young adults, that seems to still be going pretty strong.
• 36:13
  Tina Strachan: Absolutely.
• 36:14
  Tina Strachan: But yeah, it is about marketing and trying to find those different ways of.
• 36:17
  Tina Strachan: Getting your book into people's hands, like you said.
• 36:21
  Tina Strachan: Now, can you please share some advice for.
• 36:25
  Tina Strachan: Those of us who don't, who aren't, don't have marketing backgrounds, uh, because it's always something that's discussed a lot between the debut crew.
• 36:32
  Tina Strachan: Uh, you know, how, what do I do to, to help get my book out there?
• 36:38
  Tina Strachan: Because a lot of, um, debut or a lot of aspiring authors don't realize that, um.
• 36:45
  Tina Strachan: Your publishers do a lot to do a lot for you as an author and, you know, get your book on the shelves, which is the most important thing.
• 36:51
  Tina Strachan: But when it comes to publicity and promotion and marketing, it's um, different for everybody.
• 36:56
  Tina Strachan: And probably the one thing that is, um.
• 37:00
  Tina Strachan: You know, the same for everybody is that you do have to put in an effort yourself, and there are things that you can do.
• 37:05
  Tina Strachan: Um, can you help us with that color because you've been everywhere and doing lots of things.
• 37:12
  Tina Strachan: And, um, yeah, a, a really good example of how to yeah.
• 37:17
  Tina Strachan: Use your connections and your network and, um, and get your book out there.
• 37:21
  Tina Strachan: So what practical tips and advice do you have for us?
• 37:25
  Carla Salmon: Yes, I think, um, my background is public relations and marketing.
• 37:29
  Carla Salmon: So before I was a teacher, that was my life for 10 years.
• 37:33
  Carla Salmon: And so for me, it kind of just made sense immediately that if I'm going to write a book and I'm gonna dedicate all of these hours.
• 37:42
  Carla Salmon: Into creating a product.
• 37:43
  Carla Salmon: 'cause that's essentially what it is then.
• 37:46
  Carla Salmon: Well, of course it's a business, right?
• 37:47
  Carla Salmon: And you have to be really conscious of that and own it as a business from the beginning.
• 37:53
  Carla Salmon: Um, imposter syndrome is rife and I don't think any of us ever escape that.
• 37:58
  Carla Salmon: And I don't know if we ever, it doesn't matter how successful you are.
• 38:01
  Carla Salmon: I speak to other authors all the time and they still feel like imposters because it is a personal reflection of.
• 38:07
  Carla Salmon: Your own work.
• 38:09
  Carla Salmon: It's such a, it is such a personal thing, but it's also a product.
• 38:13
  Carla Salmon: Um, and you as an author are a product potentially, especially if you're writing for children because you are offering your services to go and visit schools and, um, potentially be as, be a speaker and.
• 38:25
  Carla Salmon: Offer those visits.
• 38:27
  Carla Salmon: So I was very conscious right from the beginning about setting up my platforms before I even thought about going to an agent, um, to make sure that I had those bases established, that I would come across as the professional business owner that.
• 38:45
  Carla Salmon: I want it to be.
• 38:47
  Carla Salmon: Um, and I think we, yeah, we need to be really confident of that as creatives, and you can do it yourself.
• 38:54
  Carla Salmon: So I have actually, um, built my own website on Squarespace.
• 38:58
  Carla Salmon: Now, I'm not a tech person at all.
• 39:01
  Carla Salmon: Um, but there's, you will know someone in your life who can help you through developing the basics of a website, thinking about every single.
• 39:12
  Carla Salmon: Image on that website and the font and all of those elements, they all have to contribute to the feeling that you want your readers to feel when you are reading the book.
• 39:21
  Carla Salmon: Um, so for me, my book, I hope at the end of it when people have read it, is that it's been a, an escapist read.
• 39:29
  Carla Salmon: It's, it's a fun place.
• 39:30
  Carla Salmon: It's set in this Instagram worthy, um, location.
• 39:33
  Carla Salmon: It's.
• 39:33
  Carla Salmon: Coastal and beachy, and those are the vibes.
• 39:36
  Carla Salmon: And so those are the vibes that I try to put into my Instagram and into LinkedIn and also onto my website.
• 39:44
  Carla Salmon: And if you're going to be, I guess, writing in a positive way, thinking about your language when you're communicating on those platforms as well.
• 39:52
  Carla Salmon: Um, and so I think it's, yeah, thinking really holistically about.
• 39:57
  Carla Salmon: Who you want to be as an author, and of course it can and change, but at the beginning when you.
• 40:04
  Carla Salmon: Proposing that you're gonna team up with a publisher and an agent who, who is also, um, a business, then what can you contribute in the way that makes life as easy as possible for them?
• 40:16
  Carla Salmon: So yeah, building those bridges, um, right from the beginning also.
• 40:21
  Carla Salmon: Following and connecting with people through social media.
• 40:24
  Carla Salmon: It is absolutely crucial that it's a mutually beneficial relationship.
• 40:29
  Carla Salmon: So it can't be fake.
• 40:31
  Carla Salmon: It has to be authentic, and it should be because otherwise it'd be really unpleasant.
• 40:34
  Carla Salmon: Mm.
• 40:34
  Carla Salmon: Um, but you know, if you are connecting and supporting people, that's actually what makes it really fun as well.
• 40:40
  Carla Salmon: And some of my greatest connections are a result of a year's worth of me just being genuinely.
• 40:48
  Carla Salmon: Interested and excited and celebrating other people's successes.
• 40:51
  Carla Salmon: Um, and again, like that's, that's all so much fun that that's the easy part of the job.
• 40:56
  Carla Salmon: But it, it's also, I've found now kind of accidentally, I guess by this point is that, that that comes back around, um.
• 41:05
  Carla Salmon: If you can be active in looking at people you're following, manage your Instagram and, and your social media really, really carefully.
• 41:13
  Carla Salmon: Um, but yeah, being aware that everything that you post is part of your business brand.
• 41:19
  Carla Salmon: So what do you want kids to know you as?
• 41:21
  Carla Salmon: What do you want teachers to know you as?
• 41:23
  Carla Salmon: Um, what do you want parents and booksellers.
• 41:26
  Carla Salmon: So it's beyond just, I guess, the book as a product.
• 41:30
  Carla Salmon: Um, I'm not sure if that's actually what you're meant to say as a creative because it's, it's meant to be all about the book right from the beginning.
• 41:37
  Carla Salmon: Right.
• 41:37
  Carla Salmon: And it is, but, but if you want it to, to be, that's really good advice.
• 41:41
  Carla Salmon: Yeah.
• 41:41
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, it's really good advice and I love how you say to treat it like a business and it's, I think it's so true that you don't, you know, we created this product, which is our book, and anybody who, and, and I've, we always say multiple times on the pod that you know when it is, when you do start a business, it's many years until you actually make some money back out of it as well.
• 42:02
  Tina Strachan: Absolutely.
• 42:03
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 42:03
  Tina Strachan: So, you know, so there's lots of things that's, you know.
• 42:07
  Tina Strachan: Um, comparing, sort of creating a product, say that sits on a shelf in a, in Woolies, so a food product, um, you wouldn't do that.
• 42:18
  Tina Strachan: You wouldn't create this product.
• 42:20
  Tina Strachan: Then just not send it out anywhere or get advice on it or get feedback on it.
• 42:26
  Tina Strachan: And when you're approaching a publisher or an agent, they're, you're actually looking to them as like your investors, I guess, totally.
• 42:34
  Tina Strachan: In your product that you're putting on the shelf.
• 42:36
  Tina Strachan: And so when you said about presenting, like someone who.
• 42:41
  Tina Strachan: Running a business, a, a, a reputable business, and you're taking it very seriously, then you need to present like that with your website and your social media and all those things.
• 42:51
  Tina Strachan: It re like, it really is, look at it like you're starting a business and you're a business owner.
• 42:55
  Tina Strachan: I love, I love that.
• 42:57
  Tina Strachan: Yeah,
• 42:58
  Carla Salmon: I mean, we certainly know some authors who have just had so much success and haven't worried about the social media and, and I guess that el those other elements.
• 43:09
  Carla Salmon: Um, and that can certainly happen.
• 43:11
  Carla Salmon: So it's not a one size fits all, that's for sure.
• 43:13
  Carla Salmon: And it, it, I think it also, you have to be interested in it.
• 43:16
  Carla Salmon: Um, and so I really, I really enjoy.
• 43:18
  Carla Salmon: The connections that I have online.
• 43:21
  Carla Salmon: Um, and I love putting together the website and those elements, so that's fun.
• 43:25
  Carla Salmon: Um, if you really, really don't enjoy that, then you don't have to focus as much energy on it.
• 43:30
  Carla Salmon: But I still think it's good to have a nice polished platform as a starting base.
• 43:34
  Carla Salmon: Mm-hmm.
• 43:34
  Carla Salmon: And then see where I guess your time is best spent.
• 43:38
  Tina Strachan: Yeah.
• 43:39
  Tina Strachan: I think it just shows that you are serious about it, doesn't it, by having all these other touch points that you can refer back to.
• 43:44
  Tina Strachan: But yeah.
• 43:45
  Tina Strachan: Again, it all comes back to having a solid book and a solid story, um, in the first place, which, you know, overrides any of those sorts of things and authors would prefer that than you having a sparkly website, but Oh, for sure.
• 43:57
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, and it's certainly helpful.
• 43:58
  Tina Strachan: Sorry.
• 43:59
  Tina Strachan: Yeah, it's certainly helpful when, um, I.
• 44:01
  Tina Strachan: It's, you know, especially for categories like ya, where it's very hard to, you know, to, to be published and to be picked up.
• 44:08
  Tina Strachan: And sometimes, you know, when there's a, um, you know, publishers are getting so many manuscripts submitted to them every week, every little bit can't hurt.
• 44:19
  Carla Salmon: That, that was my thought as well.
• 44:20
  Carla Salmon: Like if I, and I guess that's probably my philosophy with all of this throughout the journey, which sometimes becomes, um, I guess, detrimental to my sleep and, and all of those elements.
• 44:31
  Carla Salmon: But, um, doing everything I possibly can to open as many doors as possible, um, has always been the way I've played it.
• 44:39
  Carla Salmon: So, you know, and, and because I also enjoy it, so, you know, going to events.
• 44:44
  Carla Salmon: Talking to people, pushing yourself outside your comfort zone when you walk into a room full of complete strangers as, as a like, feeling massive imposter syndrome.
• 44:52
  Carla Salmon: Mm-hmm.
• 44:53
  Carla Salmon: Because you didn't know the difference between a draft and a manuscript, um, when you first initially make those contacts.
• 44:59
  Carla Salmon: But if you can do that.
• 45:01
  Carla Salmon: Um, it certainly does come back around in a really positive way, but you're absolutely right.
• 45:06
  Carla Salmon: It's got to come back, back to the product that you make, that you should be really proud of.
• 45:12
  Carla Salmon: And again, you know, we tell our own kids and students at school the time, be really proud of your work and, and celebrate it.
• 45:19
  Carla Salmon: Um, but you know, as adults we're so conscious of it, of course, thinking, oh my gosh, what if it's rubbish?
• 45:24
  Carla Salmon: And what if.
• 45:25
  Carla Salmon: What if it's not good enough?
• 45:27
  Carla Salmon: Um, that sometimes we're a little bit shy to actually put it out there and say, Hey, you know, this is a collaborative opportunity.
• 45:34
  Carla Salmon: You know, should we pair up?
• 45:35
  Carla Salmon: And what, what can we do to work together?
• 45:37
  Carla Salmon: Um, and I think we need to, to get better at trying to put ourselves out there.
• 45:43
  Carla Salmon: I've, I'm the worst.
• 45:44
  Carla Salmon: I'm still, you know, I still shutter every time someone says, oh, I've just read your book.
• 45:48
  Carla Salmon: And I go, oh gosh.
• 45:49
  Carla Salmon: That's right.
• 45:50
  Carla Salmon: That's the whole reading bit.
• 45:51
  Carla Salmon: That's, it's all, it's all well and good to create this.
• 45:54
  Carla Salmon: Fun.
• 45:55
  Carla Salmon: You know, this fun opportunity, but it's actually out in the world.
• 45:58
  Carla Salmon: Yeah, it's okay.
• 45:59
  Carla Salmon: Yep.
• 45:59
  Carla Salmon: You've gotta read it.
• 46:00
  Carla Salmon: Yeah.
• 46:00
  Carla Salmon: Um.
• 46:01
  Carla Salmon: We, we do have to just grab it and hold onto it and, and be proud of it and try and celebrate it as best as we possibly can.
• 46:08
  Carla Salmon: Yeah,
• 46:09
  Tina Strachan: I agree.
• 46:10
  Tina Strachan: That's good.
• 46:11
  Tina Strachan: Good points.
• 46:11
  Tina Strachan: But you know, it is time consuming though as well, and especially when you're a parent with kids.
• 46:15
  Tina Strachan: Like some, sometimes things just have to give and sometimes it is that whole social media and um, you know, creating that sort of business side of it.
• 46:25
  Tina Strachan: So.
• 46:26
  Tina Strachan: Um, this is for anyone who's listening.
• 46:28
  Tina Strachan: This is, you know, your permission to, to just let it drop sometimes, because you do.
• 46:33
  Tina Strachan: It is a con.
• 46:33
  Tina Strachan: It's just another thing that you do think about.
• 46:35
  Tina Strachan: And, and I have the amount of videos or photos that I have on my phone where I've gone, oh, that would look, that would look good for a post.
• 46:42
  Tina Strachan: Or, um, you know, I've made videos that I really wanna post, but, you know, it takes time to edit and put in.
• 46:48
  Tina Strachan: And um, post, and I just sometimes, you know, as a parent, your time is so, and a working, you know, writer also have another job also, you know, have kids that are, have a thousand sporting commitments.
• 47:00
  Tina Strachan: Exactly.
• 47:00
  Tina Strachan: Um, youre, your day is really blocked out every second of the day.
• 47:05
  Tina Strachan: Sometimes you have to say to yourself, well, what's best use of my time right now?
• 47:10
  Tina Strachan: Is it editing this video?
• 47:11
  Tina Strachan: Is it actually working on my next manuscript?
• 47:13
  Tina Strachan: You know, is this video taking out time from.
• 47:16
  Tina Strachan: Actually doing, progressing my career as a writer and Exactly.
• 47:21
  Tina Strachan: So, yeah, sometimes you just have to let these things go because, you know, an Instagram post is fleeting.
• 47:26
  Tina Strachan: Um, but the most important thing is getting your words down in the
• 47:29
  Carla Salmon: end.
• 47:30
  Carla Salmon: Oh, I, I agree.
• 47:31
  Carla Salmon: And I think also being aware of, once you've got your platforms established, it's all well and good.
• 47:37
  Carla Salmon: You've gotta keep that machine being fed to a certain extent, but.
• 47:41
  Carla Salmon: It's the same people.
• 47:42
  Carla Salmon: So how can you then look to connect with people beyond your current group and can you use your time strategically to develop those new connections?
• 47:51
  Carla Salmon: Um, so for example, Instagram's great, um, but LinkedIn is actually the place where so many wonderful teacher librarians are present.
• 48:00
  Carla Salmon: Mm-hmm.
• 48:00
  Carla Salmon: Um, and I found some fabulous connections there and I don't post a lot on LinkedIn.
• 48:05
  Carla Salmon: But I certainly, when I do, um, I've developed some, some wonderful connections there, and that's something that I would never have worried about.
• 48:12
  Carla Salmon: Mm-hmm.
• 48:13
  Carla Salmon: Um, but yeah, I totally agree with you.
• 48:14
  Carla Salmon: I think it's, it's really easy to get it to fall into that trap of thinking, oh, I've gotta, you know, gotta put it on.
• 48:20
  Carla Salmon: I've gotta put it up, you know, I haven't posted today.
• 48:22
  Carla Salmon: Mm-hmm.
• 48:22
  Carla Salmon: What are you doing again from that strategic business perspective, and can you schedule time?
• 48:28
  Carla Salmon: That you are doing that and trying not to just get that dopamine hit to see, you know, how many people have actually liked a really cute, funny video that you put up.
• 48:38
  Tina Strachan: You do.
• 48:38
  Tina Strachan: It is, it's hard.
• 48:39
  Tina Strachan: And it is a dopamine hit, isn't it?
• 48:42
  Tina Strachan: Oh, well, Carla, that is such great advice, and I'm sure everybody who's listening will take away lots of great, you know, tips from this.
• 48:49
  Tina Strachan: But what is your number one overall top tip for debut writers or for aspiring authors?
• 48:57
  Carla Salmon: My number one tip definitely is to try and have as many face-to-face meetings as you can with people in the industry.
• 49:07
  Carla Salmon: So talk to people, you know, go to their launches, um, go to these wonderful events that are offered all the time, and.
• 49:16
  Carla Salmon: And even if you find it exhausting from that emotional perspective, which it can be, that's the part that fills your cup.
• 49:23
  Carla Salmon: Um, because you know, it's those, those real human interactions and connections that is at the heart of storytelling.
• 49:31
  Carla Salmon: So, yeah, don't be shy.
• 49:33
  Carla Salmon: Everyone is so inviting and so generous, um, and you just never know who you're gonna meet when you go to these events.
• 49:42
  Tina Strachan: Hmm.
• 49:43
  Tina Strachan: It's very true.
• 49:44
  Tina Strachan: Very true.
• 49:45
  Tina Strachan: Um, thank you Carla, for that incredible insight into your life and into writing, and especially the really important discussion of, you know, getting kids to read and what we can do to make books that they actually want to read.
• 49:59
  Tina Strachan: It's really important.
• 50:00
  Tina Strachan: So what's next for you?
• 50:02
  Tina Strachan: What are you working on?
• 50:03
  Carla Salmon: Book two.
• 50:04
  Carla Salmon: Book two, madly editing.
• 50:06
  Carla Salmon: I will meet my deadline by the end of the month.
• 50:09
  Carla Salmon: Surely, surely I'll.
• 50:10
  Carla Salmon: Okay.
• 50:11
  Carla Salmon: Um, yeah, so book two, um, draft is due in a couple of weeks.
• 50:16
  Carla Salmon: Um, hence my children have their post-it notes out and are quite brutal in nice, um, their, their constructive critique.
• 50:25
  Carla Salmon: Mm-hmm.
• 50:25
  Carla Salmon: Um, it's fantastic actually.
• 50:27
  Carla Salmon: So, yeah, so just trying to get it to the best potential.
• 50:31
  Carla Salmon: You know, polished version.
• 50:33
  Carla Salmon: It can be, and then we'll see where it goes.
• 50:36
  Carla Salmon: Mm-hmm.
• 50:36
  Carla Salmon: See if the publisher actually likes it or not.
• 50:38
  Carla Salmon: I'm sure they will.
• 50:39
  Carla Salmon: It'll be incredible.
• 50:40
  Carla Salmon: Thank you, Carla.
• 50:41
  Carla Salmon: Thanks so much for your time today.
• 50:42
  Carla Salmon: Thanks so much.
• 50:43
  Carla Salmon: So, so much fun to chat to you.
• 50:48
  Tina Strachan: Thank you for listening to the Book Deal podcast.
• 50:50
  Tina Strachan: If you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe to the pod so you can receive updates as soon as our new apps drop and to keep up to date with what the pod is doing.
• 50:59
  Tina Strachan: You can also find us on Instagram.