Latest / Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast / IFH 772: Screenwriting the 80’ Classic Cocoon with Tom Benedek

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IFH 772: Screenwriting the 80’ Classic Cocoon with Tom Benedek · Indie Film Hustle® - A Filmmaking Podcast

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• 1:52
  Speaker 2: today's episode with guest host Dave Bullis.
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  Speaker 3: Hey, Tom, thanks lof for coming on the show.
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  Speaker 4: I'm really happy to be here, Dave, thanks for having me.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: Oh, you know, my pleasure.
• 2:03
  Speaker 4: Tom.
• 2:03
  Speaker 5: You know, you're a person I've been I've been mean
• 2:05
  Speaker 5: to have on the podcast for a while. You know,
• 2:08
  Speaker 5: I really admire you, know, your work and the work
• 2:10
  Speaker 5: that you and Scott do for Screenwriting masterclass, and you
• 2:14
  Speaker 5: know it's good that we could actually, you know, have
• 2:15
  Speaker 5: this conversation now.
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: Oh, it's great. I'm glad. I'm glad you've been enjoying classes,
• 2:19
  Speaker 4: and it's been good to have you in with us
• 2:22
  Speaker 4: in our in our classes.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I've been enjoying the classes a lot.
• 2:27
  Speaker 5: And you know there's a question I usually uh ask
• 2:31
  Speaker 5: most people, you know when when we start off, is
• 2:33
  Speaker 5: I want to ask Tom, you know, how did you
• 2:35
  Speaker 5: get started, you know, in the film industry.
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: How did I get started? Well, I I we fell
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: in love with movies when I was a kid, and
• 2:44
  Speaker 4: we had a neighbor who was a filmmaker, Burt Ballaban,
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: and we were on the set of his movies a
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: couple of times. And I just love to go to
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: the movies. I have this weird you know. There were
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: these movie theaters in our town, and I would go
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: and see The West. We'd go and see the you know,
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: when I was a little kid, the you know, twenty Cartoons,
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: Mattinee in the afternoon, and then an Avene Costello movie.
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: And my mom my parents really liked movies. My mom
• 3:11
  Speaker 4: really liked movies. So, like the first movie I saw
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: in a theater was Bridge over the River Kwai, and
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: she took us to New York and so that in
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: the theater when I was a little kid, so you know,
• 3:21
  Speaker 4: I was just I really I just always really loved
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: movies and I would just go. I wouldn't go by
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: myself when I was a kid, but I read this
• 3:29
  Speaker 4: one memory of I really wanted to go see this
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: this western that was playing, and my friend Larry didn't
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: want to go. So I actually said, Okay, I'll buy
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: your ticket, so I like paid for him to go,
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: just so we would do that in that afternoon. I
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: think the movie was She Wore a Yellow Ribbon, you know,
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: And I have no idea what, you know, how that
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: whatever promotion for that movie made me want to see it.
• 3:53
  Speaker 4: But yeah, so I just really liked movies. And then
• 3:57
  Speaker 4: when I was in college, I started making films and
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: I just, you know, decided that's what I wanted to do.
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: And at that time, there was sort of the seventies
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: and the eighties was a great time for movies. There's
• 4:11
  Speaker 4: a lot of excitement and there were a lot of
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: film students who were breaking into film. And I did
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: my junior year abroad in Paris and went to film
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: school and made a film. It was actually in French.
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: It was my student film. And I then came out
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: to California when I finished school with my French student
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: film under my arm and a spec script that I'd
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: written and tried to make my way and you know,
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: sell the script and get work and that was a process.
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: But then you know, I worked at I did like
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: different kinds of jobs, and this guy hired me to
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: write and direct an educational film. She was like, it
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: was a story film. It was sort of a red
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: balloon kind of film. And I made that film and
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: it won an award in a festival, which kind of
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: gave me a little bit of hope. And I kept
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: scripts along the way, and then I got an agent
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: and had some jobs and you know, nothing to nothing
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: that really panned out into anything. They were fun and
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: interesting jobs that I had. I optioned a script to
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: a guy to actually Rick Rosenthal, who became a director
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: and TV director and still very active out here as
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: a company called Whitewater, and so I opted a script
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: to him. And then I wrote a script that got
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: got some interest from Bob's and Mechus through My brother
• 5:40
  Speaker 4: was was a lawyer and he was working with Larry
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: cast and six was a friend of his, and I
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: wrote the script. My brother liked the script, and he
• 5:47
  Speaker 4: gave it to those guys. He gave it to Kas
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: and Kas and gave it to some Mecchas and so
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: Mechas really loved the script and he wanted to make
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: the movie. So, you know, that was that was my
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: first taste of anything which really was going to be
• 6:04
  Speaker 4: you know, breaking into the the you know, so scaling
• 6:06
  Speaker 4: the walls of the studios, so to speak. And that
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: project ended up nothing ended up happening with it. You know,
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: we because Bob's a Meccas. I thought, you know, it
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: was like this he had done used cars and I
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: want to hold your hand. He was steel. He and
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: Bob Gail were Spielberg's sort of proteges of the time.
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: And then Spielberg directed their script nineteen forty one, which
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: was huge flop at the time. You know, it was
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: just like a big you know, it was like Spielberg's
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: first movie that he'd made that hadn't worked. So when
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: Zamechas got interested in my script, it was like the
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: tail end of his that first wave of what he
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: you know, had going in the business. So it wasn't
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: the greatest of times for him, but you know, he
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: loved my script and he wanted to do it, and
• 7:01
  Speaker 4: he you know, we took it to all these places
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: and nothing happened with it. So I, you know, I
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: was kind of charged by that. You know, I felt like, wow,
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: you know, it was like more than it ever happened
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: to me. And I was exciting and it was it
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: was a fun thing, and I, you know, we were
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: still I was still kicking that script around, trying to
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: do things with it and working on another script. And
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: then about six months later, the phone rang and it
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: was Mechus and he said, I, hey, Tom, I have
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: this project at Fox and they I need a writer
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: to develop it with me. Would you be interested? And
• 7:37
  Speaker 4: you know, I, yeah, of course I was interested. So
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: that was Cocoon. It was this unpublished novel, and uh,
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: there was the producers or these mega producers h Richard's
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: Richard Zanak and David Brown. You know, they'd done Jaws
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: and Staying and all these things. They had this big
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: deal at Fox. So he had that deal with developing
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: that project with him, and there a writer had done
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: an adaptation. It was an unpublished novel and this guy
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: had done an adaptation of it, and it wasn't it
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: wasn't really no one was very happy with it. And
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: so they gave me the material and said, well, you
• 8:16
  Speaker 4: know what, what can you do something with it? So I,
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: you know, figured out a pitch and I had to
• 8:24
  Speaker 4: go in and you know, I pitched it to Bob,
• 8:26
  Speaker 4: tried to figure out something that like would sort of
• 8:28
  Speaker 4: work with his sensibility in terms of what the material was,
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: and I kind of reinvented what they had before and
• 8:35
  Speaker 4: reinvented the novel and novel the novel in a lot
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: of ways, and used the story and just changed a
• 8:40
  Speaker 4: lot of elements, characters and things to it and kept
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: some you know, the basic sci fi story that was there.
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: I stuck with that, and you know, it's about the
• 8:52
  Speaker 4: you know, the story is exactly what the movie is,
• 8:54
  Speaker 4: but you know, many adjustments later, I think. And so, yeah,
• 8:59
  Speaker 4: pitched that at to Zanik and Brown and Lily Zanik,
• 9:04
  Speaker 4: Richard Zanak's wife, and yeah, they they bought, you know,
• 9:08
  Speaker 4: they they hired me to write that script and uh
• 9:13
  Speaker 4: so that was my first and that you know, amazingly,
• 9:18
  Speaker 4: there was all this drama, you know, the studios, the mechas,
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  Speaker 4: then went off to do Romancing the Stone and they
• 9:26
  Speaker 4: ended up having a lot of problems with the studio
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: with Romancing the Stone. In our movie Cocoon, I wrote
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: the script and it got green lit. You know, it's
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: like they wanted to make that movie. Was a mechus.
• 9:36
  Speaker 4: But then he was off making this other movie for
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: Fox and they were having all this He was really
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: tangling with some people with with Michael Douglas and other
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: people in the studio about that project in some ways.
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: So it ended up they ended up not wanting him
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: to direct Cocoon. So we had this movie that was
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: green lit and we didn't have a director.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: And then it was some I then suggested Ron Howard
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: because of Splash, and miraculously Ron Howard had read the
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: script before and was interested in the project, and you know,
• 10:20
  Speaker 4: the producers convinced him to do it. And so you
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: know that's and that was my you know, my big
• 10:27
  Speaker 4: way if that was my way in that was my
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: first writer skilled job and that was my you know,
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: first uh movie that got made.
• 10:35
  Speaker 5: So so after that, Tom did did you get a
• 10:37
  Speaker 5: lot of like people wanted to work with you, and
• 10:39
  Speaker 5: like a lot of directors wanted wanting to sit down
• 10:42
  Speaker 5: with you to talk about their projects.
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean that was like, yeah, it was pretty
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: you know, it's like such Yeah, I was, you know,
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: because well, once the movie got going, I started getting
• 10:54
  Speaker 4: you know, some work started coming my way, you know,
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: with other other producers wanted to work with me. Because
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: the movie was you know, in development. I was sort
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: of like you know, in the game a little bit,
• 11:03
  Speaker 4: so to speak. And then when the movie came out
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: and it turned out to be a hit, and you know,
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: and it was it was it was well liked by
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: people in the in the by the people in the business.
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: It was just you know, people really really really were
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: very kind about the movie. And so yeah, I just
• 11:22
  Speaker 4: started getting you know, and the business was so different
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: than the studio system. You know, the studio like Cahun
• 11:29
  Speaker 4: would not get made. Now. I mean, it might get
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: made somehow, someone would struggle and fight and get him made.
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: But you know, it was like a twenty million dollars
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: at that time, a twenty million dollar movie, which is
• 11:38
  Speaker 4: a very low budget studio movie, about as low as
• 11:41
  Speaker 4: you could do at a studio at that time, I think,
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: and with no stars. You know, Steve Gutenberg wasn't really
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: you know, he was a star, but he wasn't you know,
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: like a movie star. He wasn't a you know, it
• 11:52
  Speaker 4: wasn't a guy who was known to just you know,
• 11:55
  Speaker 4: put to get movies. Any movie couldn't put be put
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: together with with him. And at that time, so yeah,
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: so that was you know then you know, people just
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: started throwing me every kind of job you can imagine.
• 12:08
  Speaker 4: You know, it's just like, yeah, things change. So I
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: got I got a lot of work after that, definitely
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: definitely a lot of you know, things going on that way.
• 12:17
  Speaker 5: And you touched on something to Tom and that I
• 12:20
  Speaker 5: wanted to talk about, which was you mentioned you know
• 12:23
  Speaker 5: that movie wouldn't get made today, and you know, I
• 12:25
  Speaker 5: think you're right because I you know, everything now is
• 12:28
  Speaker 5: either like a low budget you know, one to five
• 12:31
  Speaker 5: million dollar movie or it's a huge superhero movie, and
• 12:35
  Speaker 5: you know that that's something now where I wonder, you know,
• 12:38
  Speaker 5: where where is that middle ground that that used to be?
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
• 12:42
  Speaker 5: And so you know where I wanted to ask you
• 12:44
  Speaker 5: is is excuse me, I want to ask you is
• 12:48
  Speaker 5: is you know, what would you do if you were
• 12:51
  Speaker 5: a screenwriter starting off right now? You know what would
• 12:54
  Speaker 5: you do you know to sort of you know, get
• 12:56
  Speaker 5: your foot in the door again, knowing the marketplace is
• 13:00
  Speaker 5: where it is right now.
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: Uh, I would just write. I would write a great
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: script in whatever whatever you are interested that writers feels
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: they have in their heart that they can embrace one
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: hundred percent and really feel committed to emotionally and and
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: spiritually and physically and just like you know, on every level,
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: and just write a great script. And if you write
• 13:23
  Speaker 4: a great script, then you have a writing sample. And
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: you know, in terms of the practicalities of what can
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: get made, yeah, you know, it's it's better to write
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: something that can be made for a price. And even
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: if the marketplace doesn't allow for that kind of thing
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: as much. If you want to be in the feature game,
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: you have to write a feature film. And you know so,
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: and it may be that writing an inclo a lot
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: something doing you know, mixing it up, writing something right,
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: writing something that's you know, an enclosed thriller or something
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: that's extremely low brudged. You know, it can be really
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: made cheaply, and yet is a genre film. I think
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: that's something that the studios are interested in. It's you know,
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: I think that if you if you embrace a genre,
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: you if you want to work for the studios, if
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: you want to work in that context, you kind of
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: have to look at the movies that they're making and
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: embrace that kind of movie and do something which demonstrates
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: that you are can do that better than anybody else
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: that they're going to have. So you know that they're
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: my agent, as all these writers working for Marvel, you know,
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: I mean, so you know, so there there are these
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: there are people who are specialists in that and that's
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: that's that they've dedicated themselves to that. They love that
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: and that's what they do, and that's the kind of
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: work that they're getting. And they may have come at
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: it from somewhere else. They may have written something that
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: was a more specific sci fi or very you know,
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: heightened kind of action film that got them there, but
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: something that really corresponds to what that realm is and
• 14:56
  Speaker 4: the kind of kind of scenes and the kind of
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: character development, the kind of story that are in that genre.
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: And you know, there are like there are other kinds
• 15:04
  Speaker 4: of genres that you know, there's the horror genre, and
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: you know, there's there's a few, you know, there's action
• 15:10
  Speaker 4: thrillers that you know, one character action thrillers, which is
• 15:14
  Speaker 4: probably you know, the most you know, a simpler version
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: of you know, a less expensive kind of movie that
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: the studios can make where they can make it with
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: one star and if it's you know, if it's a
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: compelling story, original, it can be you know, I think
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: it's going to be the next Taken or something like that.
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: So that's that's the way in. And it's much more limited,
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: you know, I mean that the I can't well, you know,
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: there used to be development executives. There used to be
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: a point of pride that a development executive would have
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: two projects that were that they loved but were very
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: difficult to get off the ground or sort of impossible,
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: but they loved them, so they had you know, so
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: that those people aren't that's not something that is part
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: of the part of the mix right now. The people
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: who were left as the development executives are you know
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: there it's business. You know, it's just very you know,
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: it's pared down to the being specific to what the
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: necessities of international distribution are and that's you know, that's
• 16:18
  Speaker 4: the studios, and then there's television. You know, I think
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: that television is kind of that picked up the slack
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: and all these people are moving into television and the
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: television is just taking a lot of different forms and
• 16:32
  Speaker 4: six episode series or ten episodes here, you know, cable
• 16:35
  Speaker 4: shows are ten episodes and pers season and that's it.
• 16:38
  Speaker 4: And then there are you know, Netflix does these small films. Now,
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: there's Tululu. Tulula just came out on Netflix. Was a
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: good little film with with Ellen Page and uh Alison Janney,
• 16:51
  Speaker 4: which is like Juno's but it's straight up there on
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: on Netflix and boz Lrman's doing the get down on
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: on Netflix. Really interesting. Know, so television is relly, and
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: what we're saying about in television, there's you know, limited
• 17:08
  Speaker 4: series are are significant and series that have few episodes
• 17:12
  Speaker 4: are significant. So something that could be a feature film
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: could also be put into one of those contexts. But
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: you know, and also making making your own film, making
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: an independent film. We're just trying to do something that's
• 17:24
  Speaker 4: really small that goes to the independent market and there's
• 17:27
  Speaker 4: not a lot of money in that. But if your
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: heart is in an idea in a project, you kind
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: of have to you kind of have to do it
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: and try and find a way, and people find a way,
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: things rise up. You know, everybody's hoping that this year,
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: that at the festivals and wherever, that some great stuff
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: is going to rise up. So if people keep making
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: movies and keep writing scripts and then good things will happen.
• 17:55
  Speaker 5: You know, you made another good point, Tom, which is
• 17:57
  Speaker 5: about TV. You know, that's where a lot of good
• 18:00
  Speaker 5: writers now that even you know that I even know personally,
• 18:04
  Speaker 5: are all aiming for TV now rather than feature films.
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: And I think part of the reason is is because of.
• 18:11
  Speaker 5: The budget issue where you know, you want to make
• 18:13
  Speaker 5: a feature film, you know, and they look at it
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: and they go, well, you know, maybe this would be
• 18:18
  Speaker 5: better as episodic because that's you know, everyone has been
• 18:21
  Speaker 5: you know, conditioned to to binge watch it or you
• 18:23
  Speaker 5: know what I mean.
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: And there's and we're in the golden age of TV.
• 18:26
  Speaker 5: There's so many good TV shows on, you know, out there,
• 18:29
  Speaker 5: and you know, I think, you know, even some of
• 18:31
  Speaker 5: the producers that maybe would have made those movies, those
• 18:34
  Speaker 5: feature films even a few years ago, have maybe too
• 18:38
  Speaker 5: much on their plate or they just aren't making those
• 18:41
  Speaker 5: types of movies anymore.
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think you have a little. I mean, they're
• 18:44
  Speaker 4: not there. It's hard for the producers. The producers are
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: reluctant to develop a lot of things because it's really
• 18:51
  Speaker 4: hard to set them up. It's just they don't you know,
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: the studios aren't giving the producers budgets for development, and
• 18:57
  Speaker 4: they're just not buying. It's not a it's a it's
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: it's they only buy. They buy scripts when they're going
• 19:03
  Speaker 4: to go into production a lot of the time now apparently.
• 19:06
  Speaker 4: So yeah, it's TV is really picking up the slack
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: and uh, you know, and I think that it's it's
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: this breakdown which is occurring and the but I think that,
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: you know, once things eventually, the theatrical theatrical film is
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: not going to go away. It's that form is important,
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: and people don't just want to watch series. People don't
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: always want to just get hooked into something that's going
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: to take them ten hours to watch. They want to
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: sit down with a group of people or by themselves
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: and watch something that's two hours. And that's that form
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: is primal to film entertainment. So it's not going anywhere.
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: It's just right now we're in kind of a it's
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: in kind of a downswing in terms of the certain
• 19:50
  Speaker 4: sectors of the kinds of films that are getting made. Uh,
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: and it's it's probably gonna it's probably gonna change, and
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: it may not be that the movie theaters are going
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: to be as important as they were.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: But I think that there's still there's always going to
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: be room for for a good movie, for a good
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: script and a good movie. It's just but I think
• 20:18
  Speaker 4: that in practical terms, having a TV script is something
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: where people feel like they can do something with it.
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: There's there's all these channels, there's all these outlets that
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: are all looking for stuff, so you know, and there
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: you know, if you take the difference between the way
• 20:36
  Speaker 4: that Warner Brothers is trying to find material for movies
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: on Warner Brothers films versus the way that AMC, the
• 20:46
  Speaker 4: AMC channel is looking for projects, I would guess that
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: AMC is is a lot more you know, fun place
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: to go to if you really want to sell something
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: these days.
• 21:01
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, because AMC, you know, with The Walking Dead,
• 21:03
  Speaker 5: and they also have breaking bed and you know, and
• 21:07
  Speaker 5: you know, I, like you said to a lot of
• 21:08
  Speaker 5: people are taking more chances because you know, I heard
• 21:11
  Speaker 5: a rumor that Voodoo, which is owned by Walmart, is
• 21:15
  Speaker 5: going to start making their own original content. Because everyone
• 21:18
  Speaker 5: wants to get into that game of creating their own
• 21:20
  Speaker 5: original you know, movies and TV shows.
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean someone this idea of the content bubble
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: is you know they said two years ago, somebody said
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: that there was a content bubble and it was going
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: to go you know, there are too many shows and
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: all this. Well, the bubble hasn't gone away, and you know,
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: I was the truth is that a show that a
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: cable show that is doing really well the number of
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: people who are actually watching it, it would be canceled.
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: It would have been canceled fifteen years ago if it
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: were a network show. So it doesn't have to do
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: that much business like this. It's kind of this large
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: scale version of the long tail where people, you know,
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: where there there are so many niches now and if
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: you if you fit into a niche and you write
• 22:11
  Speaker 4: something of quality, creat show of quality that really that
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: people who are passionate about that niche and beyond respond to.
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: Then you know, it's it's gonna it's gonna work. So
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: you have all these channels and they're all they're all
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: looking for stuff. They're all looking for ways to survive
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: or make themselves more prominent than they are. And so,
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: you know, you so there are all these channels you
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: never heard of are all sort of have one eye
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: on doing some you know, some kind of TV series
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: or some kind of filmed entertainment show that's not just
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: what their standard mix might be. So yeah, so there's
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: you know, there's a lot going on. There's also you know,
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: things that are just on the web, just web series
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: and uh, you know there are these verticals which are
• 22:55
  Speaker 4: grouped groupings together, group grouped together web shows that are
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: you know, just a bunch of web channels that are
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: that are that are part of one organization. And there's
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: just gonna be more that's just starting. And now it's in.
• 23:10
  Speaker 4: You know, people you know treat it like, oh, you know,
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: some people love YouTube and some people feel like they
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: don't relate to it and they feel like it's not
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: for them, and they then they generalize that that realm
• 23:21
  Speaker 4: is never going to be something that they would ever
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: want to work in. Well, it's going to evolve. I mean,
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: all these things are going to evolve. Maybe it won't
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: be YouTube specific. Maybe YouTube will will stay the realm
• 23:33
  Speaker 4: of what it is now, which is, you know, I
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: enjoy some of the things that are on there, but
• 23:38
  Speaker 4: it may be that it will really you know, there'll
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: be more diversification, There'll be more different kinds of shows
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: even within YouTube. So there's plenty of there's a lot
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: of opportunity and there's a lot of you know, a
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: lot of ways to go, and you can you know, having
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: a good script is a beginning and then being industrious
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: about figuring out where it can fit in.
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: You know, we just were talking about web series too,
• 24:04
  Speaker 5: uh because uh, you know, I took that class with
• 24:07
  Speaker 5: you about creating a web series and you know.
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: That is something too.
• 24:11
  Speaker 5: You know I've noticed was that there's more web web
• 24:13
  Speaker 5: series competitions springing up more and more, uh, you know,
• 24:17
  Speaker 5: and they're very open because there's no you know, set
• 24:20
  Speaker 5: page count, you know what I mean, Like, so some
• 24:22
  Speaker 5: can you know, they're like hey, if you're if your
• 24:24
  Speaker 5: entry is five pages or whether it's twenty five pages,
• 24:28
  Speaker 5: as long as you're you know, you have this concept
• 24:30
  Speaker 5: for for you know, the channel or for the project
• 24:32
  Speaker 5: in general.
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: You know you will accept these entries.
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, yeah, you can. It can be whatever
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: you want it to be. I mean, someone can define
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: if if something is really compelling and it's thirty minutes,
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: it's people are gonna watch it. I mean, it's just
• 24:46
  Speaker 4: a matter of a matter of doing something that's of quality,
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: doing something that really you know that that really is
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: you know, outstanding for people and satisfies and you know,
• 24:55
  Speaker 4: is resonant. And I think you know, you can bring
• 24:57
  Speaker 4: the same skill sets of same same emotional tools that
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: you put in in a screenplay to these short forms.
• 25:08
  Speaker 4: And you can also use the short form to boost
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: a boost a script or a movie. There's a lot
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: more of people putting together reels to try and sell projects.
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: You know, they're sort of like to really investing in
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: whatever their ideas and having a way to present it
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: that really injects it into people's heads in a creative way.
• 25:30
  Speaker 4: So it may not just be reading the script. It's
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: you know, there's there's more to it, and that's you know,
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: as a writer, I would prefer if it was just
• 25:38
  Speaker 4: this level playing field, it was this orderly situation where
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: people were reading the scripts and then you know, making
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: rational decisions about them after having you know, a good
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: experience reading the script. But there's it's gotten. People are
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: doing more and more to try and uh and and
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: enhance the possibility of something, get people's attention to to
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: the material that they have.
• 26:06
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 26:06
  Speaker 5: One comic tactor that I've seen is to make something
• 26:09
  Speaker 5: into like a transmedia project, you know, where it's you know,
• 26:13
  Speaker 5: a web series and or it starts off as a
• 26:17
  Speaker 5: novel and then you make the movie, or then you
• 26:19
  Speaker 5: write the script and say, hey, it's based off the
• 26:21
  Speaker 5: novel by the same writer.
• 26:23
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 26:23
  Speaker 5: I've seen people, you know, more people trying to package things,
• 26:26
  Speaker 5: you know, like we were talking about setting setting up projects,
• 26:29
  Speaker 5: and you know what they would try to do is
• 26:30
  Speaker 5: also get Facebook page fan pages or sorry, Facebook fans
• 26:33
  Speaker 5: for their page, you know, Twitter followers, and that way,
• 26:37
  Speaker 5: when you're pitching to people, they can say, hey, look
• 26:39
  Speaker 5: we already have you know, ten thousand people on this
• 26:41
  Speaker 5: on this fan page.
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and that you know, that speaks the idea that
• 26:45
  Speaker 4: you can so much, that you can do yourself, and
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: that you can't you know that that whole the other
• 26:52
  Speaker 4: going back to the feature realm. You know, there's there's
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: you know, people who are doing a Kickstarter. You know,
• 26:58
  Speaker 4: you can a movie done that way. You can, you know,
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: if you have a script and if you you know,
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: you have to. It's there's a whole there's an art
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: and a science to doing kickstarter or seed in spark,
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: and that's a way to build the following for your
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: your script and kind of figure out well is there,
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: you know, find the audience for it. And then if
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: you do if you do a Kickstarter and you start
• 27:23
  Speaker 4: a Facebook page and you do all these things and
• 27:25
  Speaker 4: people and you're able to communicate what your film is
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: and get people and people resonate with it, then that's
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: you know, that's the kind of a test of you know,
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: if you do that, then your your project. It bodes
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: well for your project, so you know, so it's a
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: good thing to do. But again that's it's really like
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: it's just not just not just having the script, but
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: then doing all these other things. And sometimes rather than
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: going around and trying to get sort of go around
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: to the agents and managers and producers try and get
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: permission to do something or you know, or get them
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: to approve what you've done. So that they can then
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: go out and market it if you really just go
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: into the trenches with it and just you know, try
• 28:11
  Speaker 4: and try and figure out a way to get it
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: done yourself or that that may be more productive ultimately.
• 28:19
  Speaker 3: So yeah, very very true, Tom.
• 28:22
  Speaker 5: You know, Tom, I wanted to, you know, ask because
• 28:24
  Speaker 5: you know, we need to tell our conversation about you know,
• 28:26
  Speaker 5: making projects. You know, what sort of advice you know,
• 28:29
  Speaker 5: would you give to somebody who was, uh, you know,
• 28:31
  Speaker 5: who was thinking about writing a screenplay, uh for for
• 28:35
  Speaker 5: you know, I usually say beginners, but if you don't mind, Tom,
• 28:38
  Speaker 5: what would you say to somebody who maybe even is
• 28:40
  Speaker 5: beyond the beginner and maybe like intermediate to advance? You know,
• 28:44
  Speaker 5: what would you give, you know, any advice to them
• 28:47
  Speaker 5: about about you know, sort of writing for writing for
• 28:49
  Speaker 5: their next screenplay, whether it be about structure or whether
• 28:52
  Speaker 5: it be about concept. Is there any anything new that
• 28:55
  Speaker 5: you could comment about?
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: I would say, no, great character driving great characters and
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: really having a you know, making sure that your movie
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: is really about something and you know, working working to
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: the heart of what it is, and you know that's
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: probably you know, just just just giving it giving your project.
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: I've been saying this, giving your project love, you know,
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: giving it all the loves you can and really you know,
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: make it great and uh, you know, and be able
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: to enunciate what it is, really say, say what it
• 29:36
  Speaker 4: is and not to oversimplify it, but to really sort
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: of have an you know, be able to be clear.
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: You know, you might not know it when you start
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: out what it was really about, but by the or
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: or you might not know what sort of the mirror,
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: you know, what the important things that your characters go
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: through that they really discover about themselves or what they
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: you know, what they finally conqueror just like you know
• 29:59
  Speaker 4: what that could to people.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Will be right back after a word from our sponsor,
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: Who would be hearing about the project? So they hear
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: about you know, they might hear about a high concept,
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: some sort of hook of what the plot is or
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: where it takes place, which sounds really Oh, it's interesting,
• 30:22
  Speaker 4: I haven't heard that, you know, that's I haven't that
• 30:25
  Speaker 4: sounds I'd like to see that. But then if the
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: closer is and this person, this guy or this woman,
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: they what they what happened to them? They're the main
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: characters experience in their own life in their own terms
• 30:38
  Speaker 4: of what happens to them through through the story, which
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: is going to translate to you know, it's gonna be
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: the people who hear the story, watch the film and
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: read the script. They're gonna they're gonna grow from whatever
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: that growth is that takes place in the character. And
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: you know, sometimes that's not it. Sometimes characters don't change.
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: They don't and it's not every movie and not to
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: be formulated that has to be that way. But I
• 31:04
  Speaker 4: think that even if that's not the case, the character
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: will have there's a certain kind of heart story that
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: will take place at the center of most films, which
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: is what people remember. That's what people that's why people
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: remember movies is because of that story within the story.
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: And you know, I'm always chasing it down with my
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: own stuff, and you know, sometimes I don't know. Sometimes
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: I start with the story that's very external and you
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: have to start somewhere and you're not really you may
• 31:33
  Speaker 4: not know what it's really about until you've written it
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: and you can outline and outline and outline. But I
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: think in the in writing is where if you really
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: let yourself go when you're writing, if you really you know,
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: take the ride with it. You'll discover what you'll learn,
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: what you're you know, it's it's in you and you're
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: sort of the instrument that's gonna get it out, but
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: it's gonna you wanted to have a life of its
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: own on the page. Yeah, you know.
• 32:03
  Speaker 5: And even in talking with Scott you know, you know,
• 32:06
  Speaker 5: Scott Meyers, the other half of writing masterclass for those listening, uh,
• 32:09
  Speaker 5: you know, we were talking about character and how character
• 32:12
  Speaker 5: is everything because character suggests plot. You know, everything comes
• 32:16
  Speaker 5: from character, you know, And and those movements, movement moments
• 32:19
  Speaker 5: where they change in the film, that all comes from
• 32:21
  Speaker 5: you know, their character and and either wanting or needing
• 32:25
  Speaker 5: to change.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: And you know, this.
• 32:27
  Speaker 5: Whole idea where you can you know, sort of take
• 32:30
  Speaker 5: a you know, an outline, formulaic outline and just plug
• 32:34
  Speaker 5: whatever in there. I think it's a downfall to a
• 32:36
  Speaker 5: lot of screenwriters because I've seen them, you know, try
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: to say, oh man, you know, on page seventeen, I
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: got to have this, and on page thirty, I gotta
• 32:43
  Speaker 5: have this, and and you know, you just go, you know,
• 32:45
  Speaker 5: you wonder why why movies become formulaic, Well, it's because
• 32:48
  Speaker 5: of stuff like that.
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that's true. I think that, you know,
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: I mean the form you know, the formulas or the
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: dramatic structure was it wasn't invented before the story. The
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: first stories were told. The stories were told naturally. People
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: just told stories. And then after a while people sat down,
• 33:11
  Speaker 4: well why is everybody listening to him or her? You know,
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: and then they realized, oh, well, you know this is
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: where you know, they they set it up here and
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: they you know, they worked it, and then they oh,
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: there was this point where everything went went downhill, come
• 33:27
  Speaker 4: completely to the bottom of the main character, all bottomed out,
• 33:30
  Speaker 4: and then there was this lift you know, at the end.
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: So yeah, they figured they maybe they saw that in
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: what the but the stories came first, and so there
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: was no theory. So and the theory is a way
• 33:41
  Speaker 4: to sort of you know, sometimes you may write just okay,
• 33:46
  Speaker 4: I know I'm going to need these things, and it's
• 33:48
  Speaker 4: a way to start writing, it's a way to get going.
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: But you want to just let the story. You want
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: to just kind of find the story in its ross form,
• 33:56
  Speaker 4: and then it may be misshapen in some way, or
• 34:00
  Speaker 4: it may be missing some elements, like you know, and
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: then you can go to the formula or go to
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: those models of how how scripts are structured, and you know,
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: the idea the lessons about dramatic structure, and just sort
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: of measure what you have against those ideas about structure,
• 34:20
  Speaker 4: and it might say, wow, you know, I never really
• 34:22
  Speaker 4: I didn't really explore my characters enough before the point,
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: you know, before the you know, when everything got really bad,
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: the all's lost moments, so to speak. You know, So
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: you can use it to kind of diagnose, but you
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: may not want to necessarily start. You may want to
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: write instinctively at first and then see how it fits
• 34:43
  Speaker 4: into those structural models as kind of a remedy. It's
• 34:46
  Speaker 4: like an acting, you know. The method method acting, you know,
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: is this wave of this wave sort of imagining all
• 34:55
  Speaker 4: over simplify it. But it's if a character, if an
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: actor has a part that they're doing, they may dig
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: deep in their own experience to find moments that will
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: make them feel the moments in their real life that
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: made them feel in a similar way to the characters
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: where the character might be feeling because of what's going
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: on in the story. So they'll plug that in and
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: they'll realize, Okay, at that point, I'm going to think
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: about when my you know, when when I saw the
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: elephant get euthanized or whatever it is, you know, so
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: that'll make me cry, So they'll and maybe in the
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: movie they're watching you know something completely you know, they're
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: observing a soldier dying in a bed or something, you know,
• 35:39
  Speaker 4: whatever it is. But they use that emotional moment from
• 35:42
  Speaker 4: their real life to sort of make themselves feel and
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: appear are the way that they're supposed to fear appear.
• 35:50
  Speaker 4: And that's method acting, but some actors may need to
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: do that every second of how complicated would that be?
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: Every moment you're trying to gotch tape together something that
• 36:01
  Speaker 4: happened from in your life. I think most of the time,
• 36:04
  Speaker 4: most actors, even method actors, are just imagining it. They're
• 36:08
  Speaker 4: just they jump into the character and they imagine it,
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: and then they reach a bump in the road at
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: a certain point where you know, they're facing that soldier
• 36:16
  Speaker 4: dying in the bed, and they just they're just not
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: feeling it, or they just don't feel like they really
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: have a clear understanding of what it would really they
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: can't bring They're just looking for more from what they
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: want to be from their performance. So in that piece
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: of the of their performance, they may use that idea
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: from that that experience from their real life and bring
• 36:40
  Speaker 4: it in and then just use that there so that
• 36:42
  Speaker 4: and then on film people, you know, it will work
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: really well because there they seem to be the emotion
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: is really you know, appropriate for what they're they will
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: for for what's going on at that point. That could
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: be a great performance. But that's that's a technique, and
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: that may not be a technique that is used every
• 37:04
  Speaker 4: second of you know, it's just like you don't do
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: that all the time. An actor doesn't do that all
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: the time, just the same way a writer may not
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: use the form you know, the formulas all the time
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: as they write. They may just write and when they
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: hit that bump in the road when they just want
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: something more, they feel like there's something missing, then they'll
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: go to the technique. Then they'll go to the formulas
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: and use it as a as a helper.
• 37:28
  Speaker 5: So, you know, and it's also something to time, you know,
• 37:32
  Speaker 5: as we talk you know about about writing and you
• 37:34
  Speaker 5: know and talking about outlining, because you know, when I
• 37:37
  Speaker 5: when I've outlined and then I started actually write it
• 37:40
  Speaker 5: I've had a lot of aha moments as I'm actually writing,
• 37:42
  Speaker 5: you know, I'm sort of like, oh, okay, you know,
• 37:44
  Speaker 5: maybe this could happen.
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean.
• 37:45
  Speaker 5: You start getting these ideas that you sort of maybe
• 37:48
  Speaker 5: can't see with the outline because you're the outline really
• 37:51
  Speaker 5: ends up becoming like a lot of broad strokes, if
• 37:53
  Speaker 5: you know what I mean. And that's what I've learned too,
• 37:57
  Speaker 5: is you know, as we're making this outline, to really
• 37:59
  Speaker 5: get in there, and it's you're able to sort of
• 38:02
  Speaker 5: now say, okay, now this scene has to come out
• 38:04
  Speaker 5: of this scene, and now we can do this, and
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: you know, within this scene, this is how this reversal
• 38:10
  Speaker 5: happens in this scene, because you know, it started off
• 38:12
  Speaker 5: with Guy A has all the power and then it
• 38:14
  Speaker 5: ends with Guy B having all the power.
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: You know, stuff like that.
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think I I completely agree. I think that,
• 38:21
  Speaker 4: you know, I feel sometimes I feel like I outline
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: too much and then I'd be better off just writing pages.
• 38:29
  Speaker 4: And then I sort of want to be I want
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: to be writing pages, just to let myself be writing pages,
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: And then there's this fear that oh no, if I write,
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: If I write pages, you know, it's just I'm going
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: to write myself into a hole with a stuff that
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: doesn't make sense. And I you know, but I think
• 38:44
  Speaker 4: that there is a point where you really want to,
• 38:47
  Speaker 4: you know, you want to write, and I think in
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: some ways you can. I also like to and I
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: advise get start writing, go forward, see what see what's
• 38:56
  Speaker 4: going to happen, and then go back to your outline
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: and play with your outline based on what you write.
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: You know, restructure based on the inspiration that comes from
• 39:03
  Speaker 4: the writing, because it will change, it should change. You know,
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: if you're writing for you know, if you have a
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: deadline and you have a producer you know, a company
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: or something, and they've they've approved an outline, well that's different.
• 39:17
  Speaker 4: You know, you can you can diverge a little bit,
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: but you may have to stick with it. But you know,
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: if you're just writing your own script, you're just just like,
• 39:25
  Speaker 4: you know, free yourself up.
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: No, yeah, I know exactly what you mean.
• 39:31
  Speaker 5: And you know, I actually, you know, I started off
• 39:35
  Speaker 5: writing feature films and now I actually just wrote two
• 39:37
  Speaker 5: TV pilots, one half hour, one drama, and now you know,
• 39:40
  Speaker 5: I sort of I see, you know, talking with like
• 39:44
  Speaker 5: Jennifer Gersoni as she was on the podcast a few
• 39:46
  Speaker 5: episodes ago. You know, we're talking about creating that bible,
• 39:49
  Speaker 5: you know, and just creating a pitch and then making
• 39:51
  Speaker 5: sure that all this stuff is set so that.
• 39:53
  Speaker 3: You know, they know that you have a vision of
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: where this.
• 39:56
  Speaker 4: Is going to go.
• 39:58
  Speaker 2: We'll be right back after a whord from our sponsor,
• 40:04
  Speaker 2: and now back to the show.
• 40:07
  Speaker 5: And you know, the whole thing sort of it sort
• 40:09
  Speaker 5: of folds back and you have the vision of where
• 40:11
  Speaker 5: it's going to go in the series arc, what's going
• 40:14
  Speaker 5: to happen in season one, which you know in which
• 40:17
  Speaker 5: is the season one arc, and then you have the
• 40:19
  Speaker 5: entire you know, episodic arc about that season, you know
• 40:21
  Speaker 5: what I mean. So it's you know, putting all this
• 40:23
  Speaker 5: stuff together and you realize, you know, making a TV
• 40:26
  Speaker 5: pilot is actually really really difficult, and I and I
• 40:29
  Speaker 5: and I actually might venture off Tom and saying, you know,
• 40:32
  Speaker 5: pound for pound, it might be the most difficult of
• 40:34
  Speaker 5: doing all this stuff, you know, whether we're talking about
• 40:36
  Speaker 5: writing web series or feature films or TV. You know,
• 40:39
  Speaker 5: I think TV writing it writing a TV pilot because
• 40:42
  Speaker 5: you have to get everything in motion and you have
• 40:45
  Speaker 5: to you know, make sure that you know, it's it's, it's, it's,
• 40:46
  Speaker 5: it's it's intriguing and all that stuff. And you have
• 40:49
  Speaker 5: to introduce all these characters and within you know, thirty
• 40:52
  Speaker 5: and you know, one hour, you know what I mean.
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree, it's really hard. And you know, I
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: think the idea of having to and this they want more,
• 41:02
  Speaker 4: you know, they want an episode and you know, the
• 41:04
  Speaker 4: pilot and then outlines for a couple of episodes and
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: then the whole you know, a season, summer, you know,
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: a season Bible of some sort or just you know,
• 41:12
  Speaker 4: descriptions of many many things. It's really it's like you're
• 41:16
  Speaker 4: pre writing a novel. It's it's pretty. It's tough, you know,
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: and and you can get away. I think you can
• 41:21
  Speaker 4: get away with less if you have a really strong pilot,
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: but you do have to give them a lot. I
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: was speaking with a writer, you know, who's done a
• 41:30
  Speaker 4: lot of a lot of stuff, and he was he
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: was saying that that they that it's that that most
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: of the that the speculation of the season of the
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: Bible is just like bes that most of the time
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: it's not going to end up that way. You know
• 41:48
  Speaker 4: that you can't really know, you can't really predetermine this
• 41:52
  Speaker 4: season from just writing the pilot, and maybe some people can.
• 41:57
  Speaker 4: I don't know. I don't know if that's okay. But
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: there are buyers who are buying the entire They're just
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: buying the entire season, so that that's really what you're
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: you know, you're going in and you want to sell them,
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: you know, the production of the entire season of the show,
• 42:15
  Speaker 4: so you better have something planned.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you're right. It is like setting up a novel.
• 42:21
  Speaker 5: It's you know, because you have to make sure they
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: they they know, they have to make sure that you
• 42:26
  Speaker 5: know where this is going, you know, it's not just
• 42:28
  Speaker 5: sort of like the pilot, and then you're like, well,
• 42:30
  Speaker 5: I got to kind of figure out where everything goes
• 42:31
  Speaker 5: from here, you know. And speaking of very for TV,
• 42:34
  Speaker 5: you actually have an upcoming uh TV writing class, Correct.
• 42:37
  Speaker 4: Tom, I do I have one. It starts this week.
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: Are when is this airing? I have? I have I
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: have a one week class this week, and then in September,
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: I have a pilot workshop that's going to be going on,
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: so and.
• 42:51
  Speaker 5: This will be airing about two weeks so maybe the
• 42:54
  Speaker 5: beginning of September.
• 42:55
  Speaker 4: Yeah, let me tell you here. We get the dates
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: here Warrior two weeks okay, September fifth, right after Labor Day,
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: I have a Pages one writing the first draft. That's
• 43:07
  Speaker 4: a feature class. And then on September twelfth, I have
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: Pages two. It's a rewrite class for features, and we
• 43:16
  Speaker 4: also do TV pilots in there as well, so it's
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: you know that one both both can be in there.
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: And then on the twenty sixth of September, I have
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: Pages TV Original TV Pilot Script Workshop. So that's a
• 43:28
  Speaker 4: ten week pilot workshop where we you know, we work
• 43:31
  Speaker 4: out a whole series concept and pilot script in that class.
• 43:36
  Speaker 4: So I have those things up coming at Screenwrinning Master
• 43:38
  Speaker 4: Class on theline.
• 43:41
  Speaker 5: Very cool, Tom, you know, so you know, and I'll
• 43:44
  Speaker 5: make sure to link to those in the show notes
• 43:45
  Speaker 5: everyone and you. In closing, Tom, I know we're just
• 43:48
  Speaker 5: about out of time. Is there anything that we didn't
• 43:50
  Speaker 5: discuss or anything you sort of want to say to
• 43:52
  Speaker 5: put a period at the end of this conversation, Well,
• 43:56
  Speaker 5: it was it.
• 43:56
  Speaker 4: Was great speaking with you, and yeah, I just I
• 44:01
  Speaker 4: encourage people to uh to to write, to tell their stories,
• 44:05
  Speaker 4: and just you know, I think that the product, the
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: writing itself and you know, create doing doing creative writing
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: and uh, you know, concentrating in a in a form
• 44:14
  Speaker 4: like screen screenwriting or pilot writing. I think that it's
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: its own reward. And simultaneously, there's a there's a great
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: world out there. And uh, as much as we're you know,
• 44:26
  Speaker 4: we're there, we still have one foot in the way
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: things were in feature films and we were, we've actually
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: moved forward into some this new realm and film entertainment
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: and it's really it's it's an incredible because of the
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: changes of technology and the changes in lifestyle have been
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: going on. It's an incredible time for film entertainment, and
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: it's an incredible visual time. Visual elements are so important,
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: and film video and filmed elements on the on the
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: web and always are so important. So imagining out these
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: stories and script form is just a great thing to do,
• 45:05
  Speaker 4: and it's important to have fun with it and to
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: you know, love find out what the shows are and
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: the and the movies are that you really love and
• 45:15
  Speaker 4: keep watching and keep reading and you know, that's that's
• 45:20
  Speaker 4: about all. That's that's that's it.
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: No very cool, Tom And where people find you out online.
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: Screenwriting Masterclass dot Com if anybody has any questions, I'm
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: Tom you know him at Screenwriting Masterclass dot com. And
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: I also have a podcast which I started very recently,
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: which we have the first three episodes are up. It's
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: called The Process dot I n K and we're on
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: iTunes and we're talking about the just like right it
• 45:50
  Speaker 4: we're talking about the creative process. And I've had some
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: amazing you know I had Today I spoke with Billy Finkelstein,
• 45:58
  Speaker 4: who's you know, he's he's a He's on the writing
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: staff of the spin off to the Good Wife, and
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: he did the feature he did he wrote the U
• 46:08
  Speaker 4: this uh bad Lieutenant, Bad Lieutenant City of the City
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: of New Orleans, that Werner Herzog directed with with Nicholas Cage,
• 46:19
  Speaker 4: which is a very good film. He just he did that.
• 46:21
  Speaker 4: So we talked about that. And he worked on l A. Law,
• 46:24
  Speaker 4: and he worked on Cop Rock and it's good friend
• 46:27
  Speaker 4: to David Milch and uh the real interesting guy. He's
• 46:30
  Speaker 4: worked on all these different shows, working on Law and
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: Order and now he's on this this show at CBS.
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: So talked about, you know, running shows and creating shows.
• 46:39
  Speaker 4: And I've had I've had I'm going to be talking
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: with Beck Smith, who's an indie specialist at you know,
• 46:47
  Speaker 4: talent agency next week and I'm going to speaking to
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: someone who works at Upright Citizens Brigade and stand Up
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: Comic and uh, I'm going to be And I've had
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: other interesting guests so the process dot im K please
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: check it out and any requests for kinds of guests.
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: I'm open to feedback about what I'm doing on the.
• 47:10
  Speaker 5: Show excellent and I will also link to that in
• 47:13
  Speaker 5: the show notes. Everyone, Tom, I want to say thank
• 47:16
  Speaker 5: you very much coming on the show, sir, Thank you
• 47:18
  Speaker 5: very much.
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: This is a pleasure, and I hope we'll we'll talk
• 47:21
  Speaker 4: to you and I'll see in the Warner Hers out class.
• 47:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah right, exactly. Yes, it's a small world. But yeah,
• 47:29
  Speaker 5: I know, Tom, I know we'll our pay will cross
• 47:32
  Speaker 5: again very soon.
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: Okay, thank you, thank you, Dave, take care of Tom. Hearbye.
• 47:37
  Speaker 2: I want to thank Dave so much for doing such
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: a great job on this episode. If you want to
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: get links to anything we spoke about in this episode,
• 47:42
  Speaker 2: head over to the show notes at any film asole
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: dot com. Forward slash seven seventy two and if you
• 47:48
  Speaker 2: have it already, please head over to Filmmaking podcast dot com,
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: Subscribe and leave a good review for the show.
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: It really helps us out a lot, guys.
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: Thank you again so much for listening to guys as always,
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: keep the hustle going, keep that dream alive, Stay safe
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: out there, and I'll talk to you soon.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the Indie Film Hustle podcast at
• 48:08
  Speaker 1: indiefilm hustle dot com. That's I N D I E
• 48:12
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• 48:14
  Speaker 1: dot com.