Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Writing, Church Hurt, and Brown Baby Jesus | Guest Dorena Williamson Enneagram Nine

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Writing, Church Hurt, and Brown Baby Jesus | Guest Dorena Williamson Enneagram Nine · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_01: I think it's always such a healthy thing to be called back to.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: God began the good work in me.
0:06
SPEAKER_01: Even in the parts of my story that are are very broken.
0:11
SPEAKER_01: Even if right now it's a very hard season, we often have both, right?
0:17
SPEAKER_01: It's not like, oh, it's a great season now, or right now it's a really hard season.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: Like there's there's even some diamonds in the midst of the pain or in the midst of the beauty and the goodness, there's still some hard places.
0:30
SPEAKER_01: So we're typically walking both at the same time.
0:34
SPEAKER_01: But I think just that simple reminder that God began the work in you and it's his job to carry it to completion.
0:40
SPEAKER_01: So may our focus, and I say this to my heart, may our focus be to walk in agreement, to keep in step with the flow of the Holy Spirit as He's working his will and way out in our lives.
0:53
SPEAKER_01: And may we cooperate with that and make a difference in this world.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Amy Wicks, wife, mom, author, certified Enneagram life coach, and host of the Simply Wholehearted Podcast.
1:30
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the sixth annual advent series, where you're gonna hear all about the practical rhythms for cultivating gratitude and celebration this holiday season.
1:40
SPEAKER_00: Let's usher in this time of year with a tone of excitement because Christ's birth is something that has changed everything for you and me.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: I can't wait to share these powerful guest conversations with you about food freedom, navigating lost during times of celebration, sharing favorite holiday traditions, and even how to relate to all the Enneagram types, even unhealthy ones, at all those family gatherings.
2:07
SPEAKER_00: I pray this wholehearted take on the Aven season blesses you richly, sweet friend.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: Merry Christmas.
2:18
SPEAKER_00: You know, there are some frustrations about social media, in particular Instagram, but I also experience that Instagram can be a wonderful way to cultivate new friends.
2:29
SPEAKER_00: I'm not kidding, it's actually happened a time or two for me.
2:33
SPEAKER_00: And this is the case for my guest today, Darina Williamson.
2:37
SPEAKER_00: A while back I saw someone post about her book on Instagram, and I started following her after that.
2:42
SPEAKER_00: And then after reading a lot of her posts and seeing her work, I knew I had to have her on this podcast.
2:49
SPEAKER_00: Darina is fabulous.
2:51
SPEAKER_00: Like I expected it to be good, but it was so good.
2:54
SPEAKER_00: And she is many things.
2:56
SPEAKER_00: She wears a lot of hats.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: She's a pastor's wife, best-selling author, past neighbor of Beth McCord, yes, aka your Enneagram coach.
3:05
SPEAKER_00: And she has seven children's books published.
3:08
SPEAKER_00: Really, she does a lot of things.
3:11
SPEAKER_00: Today I get to share a beautiful conversation surrounding conflict in the church and how that season of difficulty led her to the Enneagram.
3:19
SPEAKER_00: And we also dive into her latest children's book, Brown Baby Jesus.
3:24
SPEAKER_00: I'm going to link to all her books in the show notes for you to check out, just in time to order several of them for the kiddos in your life this Christmas season.
3:33
SPEAKER_00: Alrighty, friend, let's get this podcast episode going and start learning from the amazing Darina Williamson.
3:40
SPEAKER_00: Now, Darina, I I think I found you because someone posted about your book, but I don't remember who.
3:48
SPEAKER_00: I'm assuming you have plenty of friends in the social media world who are like, hey, you gotta check out this book.
3:55
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: Well, um, I don't know if you lots of the Enneagram folks are all like it's just like with so many things, it's a small world.
4:04
SPEAKER_01: So I don't know if you are well connected with the McCords and their Enneagram work.
4:09
SPEAKER_01: Um, I know Beth has posted um here and there about some of my releases because we actually were um friends and neighbors before they started their Enneagram work.
4:21
SPEAKER_01: And so God kind of took us all on our journeys.
4:24
SPEAKER_01: And here and there we get to connect.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: So I got to connect with their newest book, do a podcast recording with them.
4:31
SPEAKER_01: And um I think I actually endorsed it as well.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: And I think on release day for Brown Baby Jesus, she may have posted something anyway.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: Obviously, she's got a a large, a large following.
4:40
SPEAKER_01: So a lot of times that's kind of people are like they find it through the larger, but I'm grateful for anybody willing to share.
4:47
SPEAKER_01: I'm grateful, whether they have five followers or five million.
4:51
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
4:52
SPEAKER_00: Me too.
4:53
SPEAKER_00: And yes, Beth and Jeff have become dear friends.
4:56
SPEAKER_00: I stumbled upon their work back like 2016, 2017.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: She was, you know, smaller and graced me with uh being a guest on the podcast.
5:05
SPEAKER_00: And I thought it was such a big deal.
5:07
SPEAKER_00: And they have been champions of my coaching journey.
5:10
SPEAKER_00: I've gotten to be on the podcast and it was one of my dream podcasts.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: I was like, I think that would be so cool to guest on there.
5:15
SPEAKER_00: So um, so I love it.
5:17
SPEAKER_00: I love how this circle is small and beautiful, and it has been such a gift to me.
5:23
SPEAKER_00: So um fun, fun to think of that connection and that that can be it.
5:28
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, that's exactly right.
5:29
SPEAKER_02: That's right.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: Well, the Lord knows how sometimes we can't remember how we get connected, but just the beauty of that kingdom as you prayed.
5:37
SPEAKER_01: I'm a I'm a kingdom of God gal.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: Like that is my passion as a and we can talk about it as a preacher's kid and pastor's wife.
5:45
SPEAKER_01: Like that's my jam, is really talking about the kingdom of God and how we build it and not tear ourselves down if we claim to be part of that, if Jesus is in fact our Lord and He's our head, that we not attack ourselves in coming against our brothers and sisters, but that we build up.
6:05
SPEAKER_01: And so that's really been like that's been my conviction.
6:09
SPEAKER_01: The thing the Holy Spirit and I have been talking a lot about lately with just all the things in the world and yeah, maintaining that Enneagram nine.
6:21
SPEAKER_02: I think that's the Lord is like, this is your tension, Dorina, this is your calling, and this is how we're working this out.
6:26
SPEAKER_01: So I think it just overflows in those conversations with people.
6:30
SPEAKER_01: So when you mentioned that in your prayer, I was like, yes, yes, yeah, yes.
6:35
SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, we're gonna have to go with that because I mean, I have so many questions now.
6:39
SPEAKER_00: You were, you know, neighbors with Beth McCord.
6:42
SPEAKER_00: So that's probably where your Enneagram journey started.
6:44
SPEAKER_00: It wasn't.
6:45
SPEAKER_01: So I'll I'll I'll share, I'll share um where you want me to share it as we're gonna go for it.
6:51
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: So I learned about the Enneagram during a season of church conflict.
6:59
SPEAKER_00: Oh, girl.
7:00
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
7:01
SPEAKER_00: Yes, we talk about that a lot around here.
7:03
SPEAKER_00: So as a pastor's kid, I worked in ministry.
7:07
SPEAKER_01: So you feel me.
7:08
SPEAKER_01: Okay, we got that commonality.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: So during a season of uh just difficulty, you know, my husband has been a pastor for 27 years.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: We've had a beautiful journey as we've served and done life with our wonderful multiracial church.
7:27
SPEAKER_01: During a season of conflict, we were introduced to the Enneagram as an opportunity for the staff to uh grow, to work through some conflict as they discovered more about how to appreciate one another and how to work together to build up the body.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: And so the staff members, my husband included, were given the opportunity to take the Enneagram.
7:51
SPEAKER_01: And so my husband said, Hey, you know, the person that, you know, is coming alongside to help has also offered this as something that the staff wives or spouses could do.
8:02
SPEAKER_01: And so I had never heard of Enneagram, or maybe if I had, I wasn't really clued into what it was.
8:07
SPEAKER_01: And it's so funny, Amy.
8:09
SPEAKER_01: This past Sunday I was talking to a guy at church who's an Enneagram coach.
8:13
SPEAKER_01: And so you Enneagram folks will talk about it to everybody, right?
8:16
SPEAKER_01: In the grocery store, like, you know, it doesn't matter.
8:18
SPEAKER_00: Like, hey, you don't talk about Enneagram, let's go.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: And so it's a great evangelism tool I've come to find.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we can bridge the gap through Enneagram, and then it's fair game.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: Sure, for sure.
8:30
SPEAKER_01: And so it was so illuminating to me because I was talking to Lauren, and we have the chords in common as well, because he was certified uh as an Enneagram coach through their work.
8:42
SPEAKER_01: And he asked about when I first learned about it.
8:45
SPEAKER_01: And I said it was during a season of conflict, and I actually remember being so grateful that my husband was learning about his Enneagram eight as a way to own how God had created him.
9:03
SPEAKER_01: And I have to also insert Amy as a black man as well, who is a passionate, you know, he's an eight, so he's a prophetic, fiery leader.
9:13
SPEAKER_01: And that mantle, that prophetic part, right?
9:16
SPEAKER_01: That part that tells the truth, that speaks the truth, because he's willing to challenge, because he's created to be a protector.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: But often people see the challenging part, they see the bulldozer who's willing to charge forth.
9:33
SPEAKER_01: And while they appreciate that person making a way and telling the truth, as long as the truth doesn't hurt them, as long as the truth doesn't offend them or unsettle them, that's probably the better way to say it.
9:43
SPEAKER_00: Unsettle, yeah.
9:44
SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, or knock them off with their complacency.
9:46
SPEAKER_01: Complacency.
9:48
SPEAKER_01: And as a black man whose truth telling is based on the word of God, but also speaks into culture, it was a season where he was really feeling fractured in his soul because doing that in the way that God created him to was was just intensely hard at that point.
10:09
SPEAKER_01: So as I was telling my friend Lauren this, he said, You were so focused on how it affected your husband because you're a nine.
10:17
SPEAKER_01: And I never thought about that.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: Like I was not even owning at that time what my type was.
10:22
SPEAKER_01: Like I took the test and was like, okay, yeah, I'm a nine.
10:26
SPEAKER_01: Okay, I'll unpack what that is.
10:28
SPEAKER_01: But first, I'm really happy that my husband's unpacking his eight-ness and like we're getting into that.
10:34
SPEAKER_01: Like, how does he steward that well?
10:36
SPEAKER_01: How does he make sure that it's gospel-centered and um just again saying, Wow, I don't have to let people put me in a box, and I don't have to let how people feel about my type cause me to shrink back from being living up to what God has called me to be, but I can obviously steward that well, and that was a great learning curve for him.
10:58
SPEAKER_02: So it was beautiful that my friend said, the reason you were so into your husband's type first before your own is because of your type.
11:04
SPEAKER_02: And I was like, that's hilarious.
11:08
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
11:09
SPEAKER_02: That is that's where the majority started.
11:11
SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes.
11:13
SPEAKER_00: And then even okay, so then unto this idea about building the kingdom of God.
11:18
SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you're multi-passionate.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: You've worn many hats and you're multi-passionate about the kingdom of God.
11:25
SPEAKER_00: So, what does it look like to be a peacemaker and not a peacekeeper, especially when this conflict is surrounding you and within you?
11:35
SPEAKER_00: You're mitigating some of the elements of your husband's challenger and the prophetic voice.
11:42
SPEAKER_00: Like, I would love to give that caveat for those who have the gift of prophecy.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: And this may be uncomfortable for some of our friends who are like, well, I don't know if these sort of gifts are active in the body of Christ.
11:52
SPEAKER_00: And I would subscribe to the idea, absolutely, yes, they are.
11:55
SPEAKER_00: I see them in my home, I see them in my family, I see them in some of my kids.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: And it can feel a lot more challenging and assertive than their natural personality.
12:07
SPEAKER_00: So it can even like come out of the blue, this because the prophetic voice tends to draw the line in the sand of the right, wrong.
12:13
SPEAKER_00: So you combine that with a challenger who tends to see either or in a love it or hate it manner.
12:22
SPEAKER_00: There's some fire happening.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: There is, and I love it.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: And as we've been married longer and been in ministry longer, Amy, I think what what has been so beautiful about the Enneagram is it's helped me own why sometimes I want to just go shrink into my little corner because it I think it puzzled me until the Enneagram helped me learn more about myself.
12:51
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
12:52
SPEAKER_01: I wondered, okay, I'm a preacher's kid.
12:55
SPEAKER_01: So as you understand, you're raised in this setting where your family life is spent giving and serving and being surrounded by people all the time.
13:07
SPEAKER_01: And I grew up in a family with five kids.
13:11
SPEAKER_01: So it's not like I had a lot of time by myself.
13:15
SPEAKER_02: No, it was busy and lively and talkative all the time.
13:19
SPEAKER_02: And then I went from that to being married and having four children.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: So again, it's not like I'm so it's even like there's no crawling in a hole and escaping.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: It is it is here.
13:35
SPEAKER_01: And I think as I've gotten older and I realize, why do I not want to always be fired and engaging and all like I just want to go get in my little corner?
13:46
SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking, who is who is that person?
13:48
SPEAKER_01: Like, who am I now?
13:50
SPEAKER_01: As I've gotten older and and in those ways mellowed out.
13:53
SPEAKER_01: So, to your point about being a peacemaker, I think the mantle of becoming an author is really how God has gently guided me into helping to bring peace to people in the way that Christ is our peace, and that that Jesus being our peace means being a mediator.
14:16
SPEAKER_01: You know, he's the one that tore down that dividing wall that Paul talks about, that separated Jew and Gentile, men and women, you know, and so in Christ now, we all who once were far away have been brought near.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: And I very much feel that the work God has called me to do as a children's author, unpacking relevant topics with grace in a way that adults and children can go, oh, I hadn't seen it from that light before.
14:45
SPEAKER_01: But that makes sense that I'm walking out that that peaceful mediator that that is also willing to tell the truth, you know, because there's some there's some eight-wing in there.
14:57
SPEAKER_01: There's some, you know, parts where, you know, you're telling people things that that they go, I haven't, I haven't thought about that before.
15:03
SPEAKER_01: And our human tendency is often to step back or to want to deflect when it's something that feels uncomfortable to us.
15:13
SPEAKER_01: But I believe that the way that God has designed me to share it really does fall in line with with my type.
15:20
SPEAKER_01: And so owning that, not trying to be, well, I want to be more like this person, or I want to be more like my husband, or you know, I've had to go through that journey of I have to communicate and walk this calling out in the way that God has crafted me.
15:35
SPEAKER_01: And that is right and good.
15:37
SPEAKER_01: And as long as I am walking in the in the spirit, right, and not letting that wounded child, you know, speak up and cause me to shrink back or question the gift, but lean in and say, no, this is what God has called me to do.
15:51
SPEAKER_01: And I want to be faithful and I want to do it the unique way that He's designed for me.
15:57
SPEAKER_01: And that has been such a difficult but blessed journey for me to learn.
16:05
SPEAKER_00: Beautifully said.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean, come on, if I could just encapsulate what you articulated right there, the beautiful journey of it, the path for a nine, all of it really well summarized and ultimately the gift, the gift that it is, it's Christ that brings the freedom.
16:24
SPEAKER_00: But this Enneagram typology tool helps amplify these places that you were going, wait a minute, what where's the tug of war coming in?
16:35
SPEAKER_00: Who am I really?
16:37
SPEAKER_00: What is there inside that is just longing to get out?
16:40
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
16:41
SPEAKER_00: And then that gentle grace that you're offering, I see it just in such a it's pervasive of who you are and how you're articulating on your platform and utilizing these messages.
16:53
SPEAKER_00: The the gentleness and going to the lowly, even going to the children, right?
16:59
SPEAKER_00: And and we're obviously exhorted in the word of God to come like children.
17:04
SPEAKER_00: So how better, how better to engage at that level.
17:08
SPEAKER_00: So tell me a little bit, like being a children's author, I like it's such a gift.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: It's beautiful contribution to the generation coming up, which is desperately needed.
17:22
SPEAKER_00: So, what has that journey been like?
17:24
SPEAKER_00: Because becoming an author at all, much less a children's author and getting those, you know, getting those book babies in the world, it's not easy.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: There is not a easy path.
17:37
SPEAKER_01: There is not an easy path.
17:39
SPEAKER_01: And if there's anyone listening who does aspire or feels this is something that they are called to do or even curious about, I hope that they will put a pen in what you just said because it is not an easy path.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: But nothing worthwhile is.
17:55
SPEAKER_03: Yes.
17:56
SPEAKER_01: Anything that we desire to do that is going to make a difference, shape hearts and minds and lives is going to take a great deal of hard work.
18:08
SPEAKER_01: And I love what you said about coming as a child, because as I think about writing for children, I tell people that I write for the greatest.
18:30
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, who can sit next to Jesus?
18:33
SPEAKER_00: And mom, the mom's asking, he has that seat next to the throne.
18:38
SPEAKER_01: And we we look at them and criticize and go, Man, isn't that a shame?
18:42
SPEAKER_01: It's Jesus is headed towards the crucifixion that you know his disciples are arguing about greatness.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: But we do, we may not argue in the same way they did, but we argue on social media, we argue in our churches, we we put up people and put down others and assert ourselves.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: And so I see the brilliance of Jesus calling a child to his midst and saying, This is what greatness looks like.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: And the greatest in the kingdom are the children, the greatest, the last will be first, and the first will be last.
19:13
SPEAKER_01: So the kingdom of God, that upside down paradigm that is not of this world, that we all need to be called back up to.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: And to think that this is who God would call me to, I feel incredibly honored.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: And I see the power, as you mentioned, of shaping the next generation.
19:38
SPEAKER_01: And I also think, Amy, that my heart is when I see parents and grandparents passing down to their children what they know, or perhaps what they don't know.
19:54
SPEAKER_01: So the ignorance gets passed down just as much as the knowledge.
19:59
SPEAKER_01: And I think we forget that.
20:01
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's all of these instinctive things.
20:04
SPEAKER_01: This is this is how I cook green beans.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: So when our children are watching, well, mom, why do you do that?
20:09
SPEAKER_01: Well, this is what granny did, and this is you know, this is what we like, and we pass that down.
20:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, and and you know, that's simple and silly how we cook green beans, but with you know, these relevant conversations about cultural issues, about seeing the image of God in our brothers and sisters who don't look like us, whose family stories are different than ours, who may even have lifestyles and convictions that we don't agree with.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: But how we see them and how we speak about them is shaping the attitudes and the mindset of our children.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: And it happens in our homes, it happens when grandparents are taking their grandchildren shopping or to the park.
20:53
SPEAKER_03: It happens- Yes, it does.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: It happens at Thanksgiving, you know, it happens in our churches.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: And so the opportunity to come alongside and to say to the aunties and the uncles, even to all of those adults who are influencing children here are some books that are going to give children some beautiful images.
21:15
SPEAKER_01: They are absolutely and unashamedly based on my Christian faith.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: So I like to say they are faith-filled, but they are universal messages because I know that the power of story can transform not only across race and culture, but even across people who claim other faiths are no faith.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, yes, and a lot of times finding that commonality on, you know, we want to teach our children to value a child with a disability.
21:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, I would bet whether that parent shares my faith or lives a different lifestyle or speaks another language, that somehow we could find a commonality to say, you know, that is that's a good thing towards our fellow humans.
21:59
SPEAKER_01: And so So I base that conviction from the word of God, from you know, Psalm 139, where you know David says that I praise you because I am fearfully or wonderfully made, remarkably made.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: And that's any person, that's every human, no matter what they look like, no matter how their body works, they are wonderfully made, made in the image of God, Genesis one says.
22:22
SPEAKER_01: So it's an honor, it's a privilege, it is a beautiful challenge that I accepted when God gave it to me.
22:31
SPEAKER_01: You know, it's a calling, it's a calling that found me.
22:33
SPEAKER_01: It's not something that I thought up one day and said, this would be a great way to become famous and make a lot of money.
22:39
SPEAKER_00: I guess I don't think that way typically.
22:42
SPEAKER_00: I've come to find out those who have entered the book world, it just really like the Lord had to drop that in their lap practically.
22:50
SPEAKER_01: For sure.
22:51
SPEAKER_01: Well, that you see me raising my hand.
22:53
SPEAKER_01: That is absolutely my story.
22:55
SPEAKER_01: And even that has been a challenge to own because I wished my story had been more likely, more.
23:06
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I went to college and got a degree in journalism, and then I worked at a magazine, and then I transitioned and the way that you think it should go.
23:17
SPEAKER_01: And instead, my journey has been well, my degree was in psychology.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: And and then now I connect that to the way that I unpack stories.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: I it's very heartfelt and it's very um, it's very personable.
23:30
SPEAKER_01: It's very much wanting to draw children into feeling and uh empathy and understanding.
23:37
SPEAKER_01: And so I see redemptively how God connected those dots in my story.
23:41
SPEAKER_01: But there's certainly been times where I've gone, I wish my story had been more the way that people tell people to approach publishing.
23:49
SPEAKER_01: And instead, God said, No, that's not the journey I have for you.
23:52
SPEAKER_01: And part of my story is owning that and walking it out with the person and the partnerships that God has assigned to me.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: Uh, so good.
24:03
SPEAKER_00: We do, we crave a linear, straightforward, step-by-step process, path, journey.
24:10
SPEAKER_00: It is squiggly lines, friends.
24:12
SPEAKER_00: I don't care how you've been able to articulate it now when you were in the midst of it.
24:18
SPEAKER_00: You were going around chasing your tail, chasing this thing, going after this or pursuing this.
24:24
SPEAKER_00: And and now the beauty is being able to have hindsight and go, oh, I see how the Lord was working it all out, but man, you know, I think anyone who's trying to sell us the linear path is just trying to make a book and sell us something when it's all so uniquely different.
24:41
SPEAKER_00: There are some proven processes out there that will help us, but they're not the the formula to these things that we want, it it just doesn't exist, I don't think.
24:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, because it's the Lord's working the unique story in the world.
24:56
SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
24:57
SPEAKER_01: And I think that that's what we should communicate more, is not just a formula.
25:04
SPEAKER_01: As you said, there are general principles with anything, with parenting, with wise usage of money.
25:09
SPEAKER_01: But so often we want, okay, I want a guaranteed one, two, three that I can hold on to.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: And again, it's God's unique guiding in each of our story.
25:21
SPEAKER_01: And I find as that nine, as that peaceful mediator, I find great peace when I rest in this is how God is unfolding it for me.
25:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
25:32
SPEAKER_01: And let me let God be God.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: Oh, yes, yes, and amen.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: I would love to know and maybe answer or give us the story with this frame of reference, because a lot of times when I coach women who lead as a four, five, or nine, and they that person, those three personalities fit in the withdrawing stance.
25:58
SPEAKER_00: So they they tend to go inward to create the peace, the the belonging, the knowledge that, you know, take care of their inner world.
26:08
SPEAKER_00: Those personality types, uh, when I coach them, especially, I I can even think of a couple who are authors or aspire to be or building a business.
26:18
SPEAKER_00: The doing gets in the way.
26:21
SPEAKER_00: And it's a phraseology that's called doing repressed, which sounds so insulting.
26:25
SPEAKER_00: We all have an area of repression, but what does it look like to pursue this dream and get a book out there when your natural self might cause you to discount or to step back or just not uh have the inertia and the momentum to get it done?
26:42
SPEAKER_01: It is such a day-by-day.
26:46
SPEAKER_01: And I've also learned to rest in that to give myself more grace.
26:51
SPEAKER_01: It's good.
26:52
SPEAKER_01: You know, I really don't need anybody in the world to be hard on me because I'll I'll be playing hard on myself, right?
26:59
SPEAKER_02: Yes.
27:00
SPEAKER_01: And so it's really resting as I do the the work that I have to do.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: And and I will say specifically in this season with a new book out, which requires, you know, for those who don't know in publishing, unless you are already super famous or you already have a a team, a well-paid team.
27:24
SPEAKER_01: You know, you have a lot of resources.
27:25
SPEAKER_01: So there's a well-paid team that does everything, and you just nod and say, Yep, that all looks good.
27:30
SPEAKER_01: For the the rest of us, which is most of us, yes, yes, there are very specific tasks that you do.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: You know, you have to make sure you're marketing and you're speaking up about it and you're planning um events and um allowing your audience to come into your story and how it develops and how um you are wanting to share your messages with the world.
27:57
SPEAKER_01: And so I find the most peace in remembering that I'm engaging, you know, being someone who engages energizes me.
28:09
SPEAKER_01: Thinking of it as I'm promoting myself or I'm getting my book out there as much as I know it's a business and you know, we don't need to spiritualize.
28:21
SPEAKER_01: Yes, it needs to sell.
28:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh, we would like to earn royalties, amen.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: Um still have a child, we still have a child in college and another head of graduate school.
28:30
SPEAKER_01: So, you know, uh-huh.
28:31
SPEAKER_01: We do need to be good stewards of what God has given us.
28:34
SPEAKER_01: So, yes, we need the books to sell, and that's not it's not wrong to think that way because we all have to work, we all have to live and and and be good stewards of the life that God has given to us.
28:45
SPEAKER_01: So instead of thinking of it as I'm promoting myself or I'm I'm trying to get people to buy a lot of books, I have to frame it as I want to continue to grow and engage with people.
28:56
SPEAKER_01: And every opportunity I have to engage, whether it's a sweet mama and her biracial daughter at a book signing who's longing to see books with people that look more like her, she's longing to know her place in the world and know that she matters, just like God made her with the hair she has and the skin color she has and the story she has of having two parents of different races, that she matters and she needs that engagement at my book table.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: And whether they buy one book and have five followers, or whether I get to engage with a quote unquote celebrity who, you know, has almost a million followers.
29:35
SPEAKER_01: It's about engaging with people.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: And when I stay focused on that, then I am healthy and I am joyful, and I am able to keep the momentum going and not get stuck in the whatabouts and the oh, will anyone come?
29:58
SPEAKER_01: And does anyone like what I'm doing?
30:00
SPEAKER_01: And those thoughts come and I have to see them for what they are, see the fear or the anxiety or the comparison or all the traps that constantly come for all of us at all of our ages or whatever our our work is.
30:14
SPEAKER_01: So identifying those things, but framing it in a way that makes me excited to do the necessary work.
30:22
SPEAKER_01: I think that's been really helpful for me, specifically as it pertains to the work as an author.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: That is huge.
30:29
SPEAKER_00: Keeping that at the forefront of your mind to propel you to take one more step, to take the next possible step.
30:40
SPEAKER_00: Especially, I know for the four, five, and nine, the process can feel overwhelming at times.
30:47
SPEAKER_00: And we're constantly breaking it down.
30:49
SPEAKER_00: And so, but keeping that why almost, it's like that is at the center, helps you cut through the clutter, cut through the overwhelm.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: Let's just do the next possible thing.
31:00
SPEAKER_02: So yes, love it.
31:03
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: We have covered so much territory, and we haven't even overtly talked about the book, Brown Baby Jesus.
31:14
SPEAKER_00: You conveyed some of your heart, your desire to create a work of art and a story that other kids who maybe have felt excluded from the conversation or can't find themselves in a book or can't find their story.
31:29
SPEAKER_00: You are providing the opportunity.
31:31
SPEAKER_00: That sounds like a lot of your mission behind this, but tell us about this new beautiful book and this work that is here for the holiday season.
31:40
SPEAKER_00: So exciting.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: It is so exciting.
31:43
SPEAKER_01: And we were talking earlier about getting in the Christmas mood.
31:46
SPEAKER_01: And I tell you what, the tree is up in our house, and all things Christmas is happening because of Brown Baby Jesus.
31:54
SPEAKER_01: So yes, this is a labor of love, and it is something I've long desired to do to release uh a holiday book because I'm a December baby.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: So me too.
32:07
SPEAKER_00: Oh my goodness, look at another thing in common.
32:10
SPEAKER_00: Three of us in our house, which is a little crazy, and it's all the week of Christmas, and a sister-in-law.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: I'll stop there, but it's not so okay.
32:18
SPEAKER_01: Well, and I have two November children.
32:22
SPEAKER_01: So November and December are very, you know, they're they're very full months, very expensive months for our family.
32:30
SPEAKER_01: We we and we try to plan well for that.
32:33
SPEAKER_01: But brown baby Jesus is a beautiful offering to the world, as you said.
32:40
SPEAKER_01: It is an opportunity to say, this is Jesus, and his story is so much more than just the manger or the shepherds and the wise men that we kind of complimentarily throw in there.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: Um, to a world that needs to see that Jesus, the historical, the biblical Jesus, was much more likely to be a man with melanin than the Eurocentric Jesus that has pervaded our imagery for thousands of years, right?
33:14
SPEAKER_01: The images as we when we think about what Jesus looks like, which so many people don't until the holiday season.
33:20
SPEAKER_01: And then they have the default of a very Eurocentric white Jesus.
33:24
SPEAKER_01: And so this book is certainly saying, let's let's agitate that, let's give something that's gonna give a fresh representation of Jesus that's also so biblically rich, which will probably be agitating for people who might welcome a brown melanated Jesus as, oh, finally we see a Jesus who looks like he like he more likely did, is but then they're gonna see a biblically rich story that weaves scripture, that weaves the women in Jesus' genealogy that's set in Egypt during the time that the holy family spent there when they had to flee Bethlehem because you know, jealous King Herod was seeking to kill Jesus.
34:09
SPEAKER_01: And so people who may not share our Christian faith or who might give a little nod to sweet little Jesus at Christmas and then otherwise dismiss him are going to see in this book, I pray, a story that really calls them to the gospel and really shows them that Jesus came from all kinds of people in his story because he came to save us all.
34:31
SPEAKER_01: And that was his purpose, and that is his purpose as our savior to save.
34:37
SPEAKER_01: And so it's clear on the pages of this book.
34:40
SPEAKER_01: And my hope and my prayer is that churches will give this out to the children in their church to use it as a tool, a gifting tool, but also an opportunity to share Christ broadly in a culture that needs to see Jesus is the answer, to quote that beautiful song from Andre Crouch.
34:58
SPEAKER_01: He is the answer for the world today.
35:00
SPEAKER_01: And in that story, my hope and my prayer is that um it is spread far and wide.
35:06
SPEAKER_01: And I'm, of course, as biased as I should be as an author, but I'm so pleased with how it turned out.
35:13
SPEAKER_01: Uh, again, for those who who may go look it up, it's a large copy book.
35:20
SPEAKER_01: And um, if I can just add any, the publisher and I are planning some great buy one, gift one opportunities during the Black Friday week.
35:29
SPEAKER_01: So I love for people to look out for that because that'll be a great way to not only buy for your home or for your neighbor, um, for your church, but then gift one to someone, add it to the Christmas gift planning or send it out to some family members as you send out your Christmas packages.
35:46
SPEAKER_01: So um, we've also developed a beautiful Advent resource that will be an accompaniment.
35:51
SPEAKER_01: It's a free downloadable resource that people can use.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: And uh, and then there'll also be a U-verse five-day reading plan, a children's reading plan that families could use together.
36:01
SPEAKER_01: So, again, just building opportunities to engage uh for our brothers and sisters in Christ, but also beyond.
36:08
SPEAKER_01: Because I I hope this gets in the hands of people who don't share our faith who might just be intrigued because they see a brown look in Jesus.
36:14
SPEAKER_01: And if that's what God will use to draw them, to Him be the So be it.
36:19
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes, and amen.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: Oh my gosh, this is brilliant.
36:23
SPEAKER_00: I'm loving the words too that you've used, that that terminology agitated, which nines would typically maybe shrink back.
36:32
SPEAKER_00: But I love this is right there, encapsulate the what it looks like to live as beloved, as minted in Christ, where you are giving and you are willing to step into that discomfort onto building the kingdom of God as you have for for both sides of it.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: And oh, I just like I I'm gonna gush and so I'm gonna like hold back and pull the reins in before I get carried away.
36:59
SPEAKER_00: I I just I love it.
37:01
SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking through, as you said, I want to give it to the school and I want to give it to the the kids program at church.
37:09
SPEAKER_00: And of course, my I mean, my most favorite moments of my kids in their younger years was reading aloud and they're way beyond that.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: But I know that this is gonna be added to our book list of Christmas stuff that we have under the tree every year, and they are going to look through it and they are gonna love it and um all the resources surrounding it.
37:30
SPEAKER_00: Just brilliantly done.
37:32
SPEAKER_00: Well, well done.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: And thank you.
37:34
SPEAKER_00: Many it goes far and wide.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: Amen.
37:37
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: It's so good.
37:40
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
37:41
SPEAKER_00: Before, like I said, before I'm gonna get lost on this, I have some fun, rapid fire questions, and then we'll come back and just have an opportunity for those last bits of wisdom and sharing to do together.
37:54
SPEAKER_00: So I don't think this, the answer to this question is gonna be a surprise.
38:01
SPEAKER_00: It's the last quarter of the year.
38:03
SPEAKER_00: There's Halloween, there's Thanksgiving, there's Christmas.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: Which one's your favorite?
38:08
SPEAKER_01: Oh, no surprise, Christmas.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
38:12
SPEAKER_00: And I love this because that time of recording, it's just the beginning of November.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: And the fact that you have your tree up, I was kind of thinking about it myself.
38:20
SPEAKER_00: At least one that I could do some of my recordings, you know, in front of because it'll just mix it up and make it more fun.
38:28
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
38:28
SPEAKER_01: Well, I have to add in that this is the earliest we have ever in our 31 years of marriage to put a Christmas tree up.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: And I will tell people the reason it's up early is because I have actually I have to record a reading of Brown Baby Jesus for a form I have to send it in in a few days.
38:46
SPEAKER_01: And so I told my husband, I either need to decorate the mantle or I need to put up the tree because I need a festive background to read Brown Baby Jesus.
38:55
SPEAKER_02: And so that would be the reason that our tree is up early this year because I love it.
39:01
SPEAKER_01: Typically, I am a hard, like I need to be thankful.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: I need to focus on Thanksgiving.
39:06
SPEAKER_01: It gets lost, and I just need every year that cultivating heart for Thanksgiving.
39:10
SPEAKER_01: So typically I'm a hard, like we celebrate Thanksgiving and then we put the tree up.
39:15
SPEAKER_02: But Brown Baby Jesus has changed everything this year, and I'm okay with that.
39:20
SPEAKER_00: So he is just disrupting everything for the good.
39:24
SPEAKER_02: He is.
39:25
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's awesome.
39:26
SPEAKER_00: It's a great reason.
39:27
SPEAKER_00: And if you use it again next year, we'll let you get away with it too.
39:31
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
39:33
SPEAKER_00: Uh, and on that note, because I too, I love Thanksgiving.
39:36
SPEAKER_00: I love having that opportunity to really be forced into reflection of what has been good about this year.
39:44
SPEAKER_00: So obviously the book, a lot to be grateful for there.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: Is there something else that you've been going?
39:50
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I'm just glad to take time to meditate and practice gratitude over.
39:56
SPEAKER_01: Now, this has been a providentially busy year for me with publishing.
40:03
SPEAKER_01: This is the third book that I had come out this year, which is not whoa, I didn't realize that the norm.
40:11
SPEAKER_01: Bless your heart.
40:13
SPEAKER_01: It's been a busy, you know, season.
40:16
SPEAKER_01: So I am grateful this year, you know, two years ago, I was asking God, what next?
40:21
SPEAKER_01: What do you have next for me?
40:23
SPEAKER_01: Because I don't have any book contracts on the table.
40:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, it was just a season we were all, you know, really trying to figure this pandemic out and our church and all the things.
40:36
SPEAKER_01: There was so much uncertainty.
40:37
SPEAKER_01: And I wrestled to rest in what God's plan was and had to call back on my heritage of faith, of trusting God deeply, of being certain about what I don't see, as Hebrews 11 tells us.
40:52
SPEAKER_01: So fast forward to now, where it has been so busy, and I've had to learn new strategies of work, life balance, and saying no to things I would like to say yes to.
41:07
SPEAKER_01: But I continue to come back to being so grateful that I even get to do this because mine is such an unlikely story that I'm even a published author and that I've had such a busy year.
41:20
SPEAKER_01: So it's gratitude for the full workload, I would say, yeah, because it's what I prayed for.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: And I try not to enter into complaining after I've asked God and begged and fasted and cried and whined and temper tantrumed and all the things that you do as you're like, God, please, and name something.
41:44
SPEAKER_02: And he did it.
41:45
SPEAKER_01: So I I am practicing gratitude and I I continue to just I feel like my social media posts over and over I say I'm grateful, but it's all I know to say because I truly, truly am grateful that I get to be a part of God's good work.
42:01
SPEAKER_00: Oh man, I what an amazing thing to even be thinking, reframing even ultimately what has been just a dramatic shift for a lot of people after the last couple of years and finding that new rhythm, it can feel daunting, but instead to be able to focus on oh, isn't it good that we can move about?
42:26
SPEAKER_00: Isn't it good that we have commitments?
42:27
SPEAKER_00: Isn't it good that we have opportunity?
42:29
SPEAKER_02: So yes, yes.
42:30
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
42:31
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I would love to know about a favorite Christmas carol, whether it's the one you have on repeat, what holds special treasure childhood memories or just speaks to you every year in a profound way?
42:44
SPEAKER_01: Well, that's such a hard question to do as a rapid fire for someone who absolutely loves so many Christmas carols.
42:50
SPEAKER_01: There's so many flitting through my mind.
42:52
SPEAKER_01: So the one I'll pick, the line that I love, is in Ohy Night, when it says, Long lay the world in sin and error pining till he appeared and the soul felt its worth.
43:08
SPEAKER_01: A thrill of hope.
43:10
SPEAKER_01: The weary world rejoices.
43:12
SPEAKER_01: And I just camp out every year on those lines that the soul felt its worth when he appeared, you know, that a weary world can rejoice.
43:22
SPEAKER_01: And I think every Christmas we're weary from something else, whether it's the loss during a pandemic, or the grievances in the body of Christ, or the difficult things we see culturally and racially and politically, and all the things.
43:40
SPEAKER_01: And yet at Christmas, a weary world gets to rejoice again because hope came in the form of Jesus.
43:46
SPEAKER_01: And that light continues to shine in the darkness, the darkness in our own hearts, the darkness in the world.
43:52
SPEAKER_01: And we get to shine that light.
43:54
SPEAKER_01: So it just kind of calls me back to that take a deep breath.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: And we're weary.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: And yet we can rejoice because of who Jesus is.
44:04
SPEAKER_00: The collective breath.
44:06
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
44:07
SPEAKER_00: Man, Arena, there are so many quotables here, so much wisdom to try to capture and gather.
44:14
SPEAKER_00: And I hope that those who are moot paused a moment and maybe wrote something in their notes app or hand wrote in their journal the wisdom that you have shared.
44:25
SPEAKER_00: There's probably a lot more.
44:27
SPEAKER_00: And I would, you know, I hope that we get to meet in person and talk again and all of those wonderful things.
44:33
SPEAKER_00: But what is something that you would love to leave us with just as we part for now and finish the conversation?
44:41
SPEAKER_00: What would you like to share with our friends here who are in wanting to wholeheartedly engage in the rhythm of celebration and the real reason for this season?
44:52
SPEAKER_01: I just read this morning in Philippians 1, where Paul is saying to that church that God began the good work in them and he will be faithful to carry it on to completion.
45:05
SPEAKER_01: Another version says that God will carry it to a flourishing finish.
45:08
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's that's fresh on my heart because I think often, even at this time of years, we typically, most of us, you know, take some pause from maybe some of our regular rhythms to spend more time with our families or celebrating these precious um holidays, you know, engaging in traditions.
45:30
SPEAKER_01: And it's often a very reflective time.
45:32
SPEAKER_01: We're thinking about the previous year, we're beginning to plan the resolutions and all the things for the following year.
45:39
SPEAKER_01: And I would want this community to remember that that it's God who began the work in them, and where we're tempted to lean too far into what we're supposed to manufacture.
45:56
SPEAKER_01: And there are things that we are to do, but I think it's always such a healthy thing to be called back to God began the good work in me.
46:06
SPEAKER_01: Even in the parts of my story that are are very broken, even if right now it's a very hard season.
46:16
SPEAKER_01: We often have both, right?
46:17
SPEAKER_01: It's not like, oh, it's a great season now, or right now it's a really hard season.
46:21
SPEAKER_01: Like there's there's even some diamonds in the midst of the pain, or in the midst of the beauty and the goodness, there's still some some hard places.
46:30
SPEAKER_01: So we're we're 100% typically walking both at the same time.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: But I think just that simple reminder that God began the work in you and it's his job to carry to completion.
46:42
SPEAKER_01: So may our focus, and I say this to my heart, may our focus be to walk in agreement, to keep in step with the flow of the Holy Spirit as He's working his will and way out in our lives.
46:55
SPEAKER_01: And may we cooperate with that and make a difference in this world.
47:00
SPEAKER_01: And may that really be a reflection that brings joy to our hearts during this time of year.
47:06
SPEAKER_00: Amen.
47:08
SPEAKER_00: Darina, you've given so many gifts to us today in this conversation.
47:12
SPEAKER_00: I can't thank you enough.
47:14
SPEAKER_00: I know my friends are gonna want to follow you and stay tuned for these special editions and the release of the book.
47:22
SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm not gonna wait.
47:24
SPEAKER_00: I will buy again.
47:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna get my book now and then wait for that Black Friday sale and jump on it again.
47:32
SPEAKER_00: But um, but thank you.
47:33
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for your time.
47:34
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for your work.
47:35
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for putting forth the energy to help build the kingdom of God in this way.
47:39
SPEAKER_00: It's uh you've done a beautiful job sharing your voice.
47:42
SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
47:43
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity to share and for your encouragement because you've given me energy.
47:48
SPEAKER_02: So I'm ready, I'm ready to like get to get to work today and and continue on the good things.
47:55
SPEAKER_02: So thank you for giving me the opportunity to share with your people.
47:59
SPEAKER_00: Ah, love it.
48:00
SPEAKER_00: You're welcome anytime.
48:03
SPEAKER_00: Are you an Enneagram Nine or do you know an Enneagram 9?
48:07
SPEAKER_00: I imagine that you could relate to some of the things that Dorina shared about her nine-ness, right?
48:13
SPEAKER_00: Or her experience as an Enneagram Nine and what it looks like to look through the lens of a nine.
48:19
SPEAKER_00: I think one of the best things about the Enneagram is it helps us defeat the lie of isolation and reveals to you that you are not alone.
48:28
SPEAKER_00: And others' experiences in life might be very similar to you.
48:32
SPEAKER_00: I really think that can be a healing process in our self-awareness journey, and it can provide a lot of comfort to us.
48:38
SPEAKER_00: Now, next week I am so excited to share with you once again the series that I love to do year in and year out for the advent season.
48:48
SPEAKER_00: And that is Christmas traditions, gifts, and also this year we're adding the favorite Christmas carols.
48:56
SPEAKER_00: It's a little bit like the rapid fire questions that I've been asking during this advent season, but it's with all nine types, and they each get their little segment of the show.
49:05
SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be in two parts because, well, as I've said before, it's supposed to be rapid fire.
49:11
SPEAKER_00: And I promised, you know, five to ten minutes, most of them did not fall within that time frame.
49:18
SPEAKER_00: But it's gonna be so, so good.
49:20
SPEAKER_00: Plus, you can expect me to share a lot of good information associated with Enneagram and gift giving on Instagram.
49:28
SPEAKER_00: If we aren't already friends there, I'd love for you to come say hi and just say that you've been a podcast listener and maybe have you even heard about the Simply Wholehearted podcast.
49:37
SPEAKER_00: Of course, I'll put the links to the show notes, but it's at wholehearted Enneagram on Instagram.
49:42
SPEAKER_00: Alrighty, friend, until next time, continue to pursue God's perspective, purpose, and plans for the wholehearted celebration that you desire this Advent season.