Latest / FUTURE OF XYZ / Future of Music | Marcus G. Miller | S6 E2

Transcript

Future of Music | Marcus G. Miller | S6 E2 · FUTURE OF XYZ

• 00:00:04:00 - 00:00:21:15 Speaker 1 Hello and welcome to season six episode two of Future of XYZ. With us today talking about the future of music, another big, bold, audacious topic is the most amazing Marcus Miller. Marcus, thanks so much for joining us on Future of XYZ. 00:00:21:17 - 00:00:23:19 Speaker 2 Lisa Thanks for having me. 00:00:23:21 - 00:00:46:18 Speaker 1 Well, I've been looking forward to this conversation for a lot longer than we've had it scheduled. When we met at Grace Farms Foundation, where you are the music director, which is based in New Canaan, Connecticut, and we'll talk about a little bit. You were also fresh off a tour with Jon Batiste, who you've worked with and collaborated with quite extensively. 00:00:46:20 - 00:01:17:04 Speaker 1 But I think, you know what really inspired me when we met was I had just seen some performances at Grace Farms, and it was very obvious that your approach to music was perhaps a little a little different than just standard. Typical musician. You seem to have a bigger sense of what music means. So as I do always and the future of X, Y, Z, I'd love to start with, you know how do we define music in the context of this discussion and especially in light of your expertise and experience? 00:01:17:06 - 00:01:42:03 Speaker 2 Sure. So so for these kind of definitional questions, I like to keep the definitions really short and simple and parsimonious because you get into too many distinctions in the conversation and then all the thoughts kind of become unwieldy. So I think the way that I define music is organized sound. So, you know, you can say like some people are of the opinion that noise is on the street or music and you can interpret kind of anything that that vibrates musically. 00:01:42:06 - 00:02:03:03 Speaker 2 And I'm not of that opinion. I think that it has to be organized. There has to be some intention behind it. And really where one can start talking about good music, bad music, what music means, you know, and start to start to apply traditions and judgments and that kind of thing to it is really in the choice of how things are organized. 00:02:03:05 - 00:02:23:18 Speaker 1 I love that. I think I mean, and I didn't intend to jump right into your kind of pathway. Obviously you were always musically inclined. I think it was your it's often the interviews. You say it's your first great love that you came back to, but you studied mathematics at Harvard Law and then you went to work for Bridgewater Associates. 00:02:23:18 - 00:02:51:08 Speaker 1 Like most most I would say famous, infamous, but certainly reputed hedge fund in perhaps in the world. You know, so your approach perhaps to music now and the organization of it, I think is is perhaps special to that perspective. But I think even more than that, it's like, you know, music pulled you back in. Right. I mean, it is it is such an important part of humanity. 00:02:51:08 - 00:03:01:24 Speaker 1 So that organization of music, what is it that is is about music that you are just like feel is so human. 00:03:02:01 - 00:03:06:01 Speaker 2 What is it about music that is human. 00:03:06:03 - 00:03:08:10 Speaker 1 Or that touches us so profoundly? 00:03:08:12 - 00:03:48:08 Speaker 2 You know, if I can purport to begin to answer that question, well, I know what it does for me. And and I know what happened in the moments when I thought that I wasn't going to participate anymore. But I don't think it does that for most. What it did for me is that when I didn't have music in my life or didn't have music as a as at least a secondary focus of that primary focus, most of my life started to it started to feel like it was deteriorating, like it was devoid of the meaning, you know, like colors felt like they became muted in flavors, less so. 00:03:48:08 - 00:04:11:24 Speaker 2 And there was this kind of malaise that that that sit in that set in. And when I would return to music or put music back in my life, there was this kind of vibrancy and and energy around what, you know, life was. And and so a lot of musicians will say, well, it's a very tough career. Don't do it unless you have to. 00:04:11:24 - 00:04:48:11 Speaker 2 And these kinds of moments let me know that it was something I had to do, even if doing something else would make me more money or or would, you know, afford me kind of more status or be kind of a smarter, logical move. It was something internal that pulled on me and I think that generally, you know, if you look at the long history of music and I'm not a deep scholar on this, although there's one author that I really enjoy, Ted Gioia, who has a fantastic substack and he has a book that he's published on Substack about the kind of the long history of music. 00:04:48:11 - 00:05:25:14 Speaker 2 It's important in ritual, it's important in forming legal codes and and mythology with the way it corresponds to mythology and kind of larger narratives about how we interact with each other. And part of that maybe a neuroscientific thing is in that music is, you know, when you had these kind of added rhythm in patterns, words kind of are easier to remember and easier to inculcate when you don't have extensive written language and reading, then you communicate things to be solved, its attendant in rituals, its attendant in very repetitive work. 00:05:25:16 - 00:05:32:18 Speaker 2 You know, there's a natural rhythm to, you know, if you're, you know, cutting down the tree or, you know, gathering something. 00:05:32:20 - 00:06:02:22 Speaker 1 So there is I actually hosted a conversation on the future of learning with a social entrepreneur named Sage Salvo. And he's using you know, he grew up in DC area and he's using music, especially hip hop, to teach kids in school how to remember things. Like it's like, how do you tie learning into the culture? So I think that that that always ties I think what you've just alluded to in terms of like what you were lacking when you when you were missing music in your life, even though you were doing this math. 00:06:02:24 - 00:06:18:06 Speaker 1 I think at the end of the day, you know, music is fundamentally a creative endeavor, but it's also really big business, right? What's your kind of take on the state of music today and the business of music? 00:06:18:08 - 00:06:47:05 Speaker 2 Huge question. So I think music is fundamentally in a good place. I think there are lots of very talented people and there is lots of creativity, and the fact that we're all connected through the Internet means that more people have access to the the great ideas of others and the great ideas of the past and the tools available to us make it really easy to make it easy for people with talent to learn and create. 00:06:47:07 - 00:07:24:09 Speaker 2 I think that there is a countervailing phenomenon, which is that as things become as we lose this kind of community, human grounded kind of sense of meaning and everything becomes an Internet identity or a kind of a short form meme or just information to consume, amongst other information to consume, the the meaning of music becomes diluted. So like what songs are important or what music is important or what kind of feeds us or informs our traditions or families or that kind of thing, and what do we want to pass on? 00:07:24:11 - 00:07:45:12 Speaker 2 And these questions easily get muddled and it makes it hard for us. So there could be somebody who was, you know, extraordinarily brilliantly talented. And they're pushing the they're pushing the state of the art forward. And they may or may not get heard about because we're not the culture that everybody kind of knows. Okay, this is the state of the art and here's what an improvement looks like. 00:07:45:12 - 00:08:08:18 Speaker 2 And we can all share in that accomplishment because everybody's so all over the place. And so there's this there's a strain there which happens at the same time as a lot more creativity. And I think that something like federated niches end up being healthy. Like if you think about people who come from musical families, will music mean something in the family? 00:08:08:18 - 00:08:41:01 Speaker 2 Not just because it's good to be good at this thing or because you are famous, but because this is what the family's done? cool. We're all going to sing at the table and you really sound good on that part. And then there are larger cultures that have this, like the black church or New Orleans or like Appalachia as I've read it in the first half of the 1900s, a great school music program, great classical music camps like Interlochen and things like dancing, like like these are all places where music is endemic to the lifestyle and life is lived and it's incorporated into other things. 00:08:41:01 - 00:09:11:01 Speaker 2 You do have these ties of meaning rather than it just being something that's amusement, something that's kind of like a lifestyle accessory or something whose values are just like, whatever is whatever is popular or on trend at the moment. And these kinds of these kind of cultures of families, ways of viewing music, I think lead to better music in that there's a higher level of training and there's more depth to what the things mean, there's a deeper connection to the past. 00:09:11:03 - 00:09:29:05 Speaker 2 And so then we get to, well, what is the music business like all of this? Then it needs to be translated into money. And the music business is tricky because the fundamental issues there a lot of hands of the pot side. If you say like, I have a soul, well, what does it mean for you to have a song? 00:09:29:11 - 00:09:46:09 Speaker 2 Like I have a song in my head. I write songs all the time, but none of it is listenable yet. In order to make it listenable, I need to record it. Then I need to get it, mix it mastered and then. Okay, now it's listenable. But now it needs to be published. Needs to exist somewhere that people can hear it and sending it around on my phone to my friends. 00:09:46:09 - 00:10:08:05 Speaker 2 Like not really going to do that. So that will need to jump on, jump online. I need to maybe work with the label and then so the song exists and but maybe then it also needs to be performed to be delivered home or there needs to be some of it to solidify it. And now we're dealing with an ever increasing number of people who have to get paid. 00:10:08:11 - 00:10:39:20 Speaker 2 And you could say like, Well, who's responsible for the success of the song? Is it you having the brilliant idea or is it the great musicians you hired, or is it the fact that you. Is it the fact that the platform did a lot of work in broadcasting your work? Is it the art designer who you know, your art or your logo was So stand out that people are going to remember it forever And like, we actually don't know, like in being the fairest I can possibly be and not, you know, raising my fist about like greediness or like people wanting to watch that and not like, not doing that thing is like for any 00:10:39:20 - 00:11:03:15 Speaker 2 individual media success, it can be very unclear about who is the driving force for the success and how much they should be paid and what's appropriate for that. And and that means that you have a lot of hands in the pot and that means that nobody if you're trying to create a fair system, let's assume that this is not a correct assumption, but let's assume that people are like equitable and fair and how the business is. 00:11:03:17 - 00:11:08:04 Speaker 2 I people aren't going to get paid as much as they want to because so many people need to get paid. 00:11:08:06 - 00:11:26:18 Speaker 1 It's totally fascinating, actually. I mean, just I mean, business in general. Let's like, we could just do like business equals money, right? Like, I mean, Dave and, and I like that breakdown. I mean, I actually had early on a friend of mine who's a former, you know, and person at one of the big labels, she came on and talked about the future of the music industry. 00:11:26:18 - 00:11:59:10 Speaker 1 And she was talking about how actually the way that artists get paid, you know, you a lot of these artists, you have to like give them an education on money, too, because like they they then have entourages around them who in many cases who are, you know, newly experiencing money. And and so I just came to my mind when you're talking about the business of music, I mean, you've performed I mean, last night when we're recording this, you know, you've just performed at the Bill Melinda Gates Foundation, you've performed at the Obama White House, you've been at Coachella, you've been at Carnegie Hall. 00:11:59:10 - 00:12:26:21 Speaker 1 I mean, you you really like. But your main thing is you're a jazz musician by training Sax is I think, if I'm not mistaken, your preferred instrument. But you're pretty virtuosic and like and versatile and a whole bunch of other other ways you arrange you, you write as you said, you produce like music is. So as we said, it's a creative endeavor, but you're also talking about you have to get it into the world. 00:12:26:21 - 00:12:58:08 Speaker 1 There are all these people, but in terms of just pure music, there's also a lot of complexity, right? You have this role as musical director, specifically at Grace Farms, which is a foundation based, as I mentioned, in New Haven, Connecticut, which is known for its architecture. The Grace Farms Foundation is a phenomenal summer designed space that everyone who is there but you see this oversee this musical programing for this very sacred space that's dedicated to education and community and faith and all these kind of architects in the arts. 00:12:58:08 - 00:13:14:03 Speaker 1 Like what is the opportunity, given what music is, which is so many things, as we just said, what is the opportunity that being the musical director at Grace Farms in conjunction with your touring and your producing and your writing and all the rest of it has provided. 00:13:14:05 - 00:13:40:07 Speaker 2 That it is an opportunity to really push forward this thesis about beauty. And if we're talking about, well, let's get out of the music business and get out of the culture and how crazy society is and all these these, these complicating factors and try to get to like what is the value of music and what is a value musical experience To me, the thing I like to focus on is is this sense of beauty. 00:13:40:07 - 00:14:03:12 Speaker 2 Music does a lot of other things, so music is very functional and not necessarily very beautiful, but it does its job and it says job well. But because Grace Farms is such a beautiful space, I figure my thesis should run with the overall title of of, you know, where I, where I work. And so and here's why I think that here's why I chose that thesis. 00:14:03:14 - 00:14:25:02 Speaker 2 So you know what I always say at the beginning of my the concerts that I hosts or the concerts that I give myself is that beauty is important because it allows us a sense of communion with with ourselves, with our history, with our neighbors, with something transcendent. And then the problem is that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 00:14:25:02 - 00:14:58:13 Speaker 2 And so there may be something that that may be beautiful to a group of people or to a certain culture, to a certain tradition. And because you don't know anything about what you're experiencing, that that flies over your head and you miss this opportunity for communion. And so what I like to do at Grace Farms is, is bring in artists who are top of class, who are immersed in a tradition, and they can share the kinds of judgments and decisions and choices that make their tradition, their tradition, and you being educated and exposed to that and say, I understand why this is this is so remarkable. 00:14:58:15 - 00:15:06:12 Speaker 2 And that's kind of my headline. But what I was hoping is that I could say a little bit more about I can unpack that a little bit, please. 00:15:06:14 - 00:15:29:19 Speaker 1 Because I think I think, you know, as I've understood it, as as a guest at Grace Farms. Right. And just in reading about you, Marcus, in preparation for our conversation here today, I mean, because you're not kind of typical in the fact that you're schooled in mathematics, frankly, have the best Ivy League education, all this, and you pursue these many intellectual avenues. 00:15:29:21 - 00:15:39:18 Speaker 1 It seems to me that like this, there's an intersection that you're cultivating or curating that's very unique. So, I mean, I'd love to hear more about it. 00:15:39:20 - 00:16:00:01 Speaker 2 Yeah. So, so like, beautiful things elicit a kind of particular human response. And I'm not going to go and define what beauty is because it's a headache. But what I can say is that we can we can talk about beauty by like what it tends to do. And these ideas, I think, are best refined by two philosophers that I like. 00:16:00:01 - 00:16:25:24 Speaker 2 Elaine Scarry, who wrote an essay called On Beauty and Justice, I believe. And then Roger Scruton, who is who is a philosopher, is Sir Roger Scruton, actually passed away recently, but he's the philosopher and critic and very, very brilliant individual. And so what beauty does is it inspires all wonder, humility, a desire to protect or honor memories of other beautiful moments. 00:16:26:01 - 00:16:44:13 Speaker 2 And especially if the beauty of the other thing is not passing judgment somehow on you. So if you say, well, there's somebody who is more attractive than I am, or if we're talking esthetics like they play better than I do or something like that, then a whole bunch of other emotions pop it. But let's hold that that part of the conversation off. 00:16:44:15 - 00:17:05:15 Speaker 2 And what I would argue is that those kinds of those kinds of experiences, a sense of awe, a sense of wonder, a sense of smallness that you're part of, like a larger lineage or legacy or a desire to protect our art or compete or become better. I this is kind of what is the best in humanity. You know, we do a lot of things and we do a lot of things well. 00:17:05:15 - 00:17:32:22 Speaker 2 But like, these are like pretty you describe somebody with these characteristics is like, man, it's probably a pretty solid person. And and so, you know, what, what in particular like being part of a lineage of offers is that you get you get to draw on the strength of people in ideas that came before you and then show up to the challenges that you know that you're facing now. 00:17:33:02 - 00:17:50:01 Speaker 2 And maybe you come with the perspectives like, Hey, other people have either done harder things or they'd actually done this thing before, maybe commuted into something else. And I can use this wisdom of whereas if you, you know, don't experience anything like that, you're just like, well, I'm on my own. And like, I got to, like, figure this out. 00:17:50:02 - 00:18:20:06 Speaker 2 And, and I would say that like, beauty is it's something that is because it's so connected to history and because it's so connected to the human experience as a whole. It is reliable and permanent and robust in a way that trends are in a way that, you know, just a purely analytical approach to things may not be. And and I actually, you know, I also still kind of think and do some work around mathematics. 00:18:20:06 - 00:18:52:13 Speaker 2 And to me, math has the same qualities like this is something really reliable and permitted. We're talking about inclusion. Well, every major culture in the world has contributed to mathematics from the the architecture and the education coming from ancient Egypt, which is, you know, entwined like ancient African history to Mesopotamia, to India, to China, to Europe, like the Mayans, like everybody can participate in these things because a triangle is always a triangle like Pythagorean theorem is true. 00:18:52:13 - 00:19:15:21 Speaker 2 It gets discovered by us, but it can be discovered by anyone at any time. And so that permanence really, and that opportunity for discovering that experience for discovery is is also beautiful. And so and so what I like to do at Grace Farms is, you know, it's a it's a very large topic and something that can't be covered by everything. 00:19:15:21 - 00:19:44:21 Speaker 2 But I'd like to give people experiences that allow them to touch this thing. A lot of this touch something that that gets them in touch with something very deep and perhaps beautiful about themselves, appreciate laterally the people around them appreciate people who come from different cultures and understand that they're they have these touch points for them or for themselves, get a sense of their history and get a sense of something that ultimately transcends and and and touches all of humanity and the human experience. 00:19:45:01 - 00:20:16:11 Speaker 2 And I'll add one thing with respect to business is that beautiful things are a great long term investment because because they are so they're so deeply a part of who we are, you know, in terms of tradition and in culture, they tend to add value for a long time. We're still very interested in going to great cathedrals or great temples, and we're still very interested in, you know, reading, you know, ancient texts of ancient poetry. 00:20:16:16 - 00:20:30:04 Speaker 2 Somebody just just said, you know, she's studying the poet Sappho from from from ancient Greece. And, and these things, you know, like there will always be money for this. 00:20:30:06 - 00:20:49:05 Speaker 1 I think what's so interesting is obviously like, you know, if design is the presenting sponsor of a feature of X, Y, Z now and and I'm the managing director of the U. The U.S., I mean, I've been with the organization now for a year and a half, but the organization has been judging, frankly, what is excellence and impact in design for 72 years. 00:20:49:05 - 00:21:20:21 Speaker 1 And it's an amazing thing because what you're describing 72 years is nothing either, you know, I mean, and music, what I'm loving about what you're saying and we're going to we're going to move into kind of like future really future topics. But what I'm hearing and correct me if I'm wrong, Marcus, but what I'm hearing is beauty, which is, you know, design, esthetics, you know, nature, frankly, musicality, like it's these really like only human and universal inclusive aspects of the human experience. 00:21:20:23 - 00:21:40:20 Speaker 1 And they're long lasting when they're done well, right. They and so the future, the past, the present, the future of music in this sense is really it's I mean, I think not to jump ahead to the end thesis, but I'm hearing you say like all of it the spectrum of time is about beauty. 00:21:40:22 - 00:22:01:11 Speaker 2 Yeah. Yeah. That that's one of the things that that lasts after everything. Kind of everything kind of vibrates away. And, you know, trends come and go and rulers come and go, political ideologies come in and out of fashion. There are certain things that seem to endure over time. And this sense of beauty as far as humanity goes, is something that that that sticks around. 00:22:01:13 - 00:22:24:20 Speaker 1 And I love that. So we're going to totally now like it drop into the weeds, although there's still big topics. So last year in 2023, you and I first met, I was fangirling you at the Fast Company Innovation Festival and introduced myself. And that's how we've landed here. And last week was the Fast Company Innovation Festival again, where I saw some of your colleagues. 00:22:25:00 - 00:22:55:09 Speaker 1 But I actually heard Timbaland that like legendary music producer on stage, like, you know, just right in front of me talking about the music industry. And it really struck me because there is a lot of conversation about like artists rights in the age of AI. That was the name of the panel. And what I thought was really interesting from him was he was talking about like the need to embrace AI for musicians, specifically to embrace AI as a tool that can enhance their creativity, right? 00:22:55:10 - 00:23:13:11 Speaker 1 Or their artistry is the word he use and as a way of making money. I mean, he's he's he's not a dumb guy, that's for sure. Right? He's talented and he's smart businessman. What's your professional take on AI and where it's leading vis a vis the music world and music generally. 00:23:13:13 - 00:23:40:21 Speaker 2 Definitely makes it easier for creators to create and tinker. And once again, you know, if you're a talented person and you have a vision, then you have access to to getting product created faster. And there's also this kind of thing where music, the history of recorded music is in the 20th century is generally the history of music. Generally, I think this is true, but it becomes really stark in the 20th century because of the speed of technological progress. 00:23:41:00 - 00:24:12:15 Speaker 2 These things are very deeply intertwined from like what radio frequencies are allowed to be used, influences, genres of music. The way that MTV changed the business model for which artists get elevated, the change from the albums to eight tracks to cassettes to CDs to digital downloads like these are all these all shaped like what is possible as far as music, as a business, and as kind of being in an economic space. 00:24:12:17 - 00:24:36:12 Speaker 2 And then you can talk about like improvements and changes in instrument manufacturers if you want to go back even far. So it's usually unwise to completely ignore certain technology unless you cast yourself as an archivist. I think that, but like, that's important too, because, you know, beauty is maintained by the people who choose to say, I'm going to devote my life to maintaining certain aspects of entertainment culture. 00:24:36:14 - 00:25:07:17 Speaker 2 So, so then, so I guess my, my concern about it is once again, having that much individualized control kind of breaks the common values, human to human participation, intergenerational of the culture. And that damage is something kind of fundamental to who I think we are as humanity. And we're in danger of of reducing music once again and just being kind of a lifestyle accessory. 00:25:07:17 - 00:25:29:18 Speaker 2 But then if you can actually just create anything you want at any time, then we're kind of like in Brave New World territory where it's like music is like sober or doomed. The drug of choice is like the spice mixed with similar to the spice mixed with music. And that like, is this thing called subaltern. The people who, like, become kind of incompetent because they're always getting high all the time. 00:25:29:18 - 00:26:10:16 Speaker 2 There's always music lousy at this. But so like, these things kind of appear in literature. I also have this other concern, as far as the technology goes, which is that there's another author I like, Marshall McLuhan, and he kind of notes that technology and humanity have this strange relationship where we invent technology to solve a problem, but then we have to behave in ways such that the technology functions so that the the pithy way to put that is that we create technology to serve us, but then we end up serving the technology. 00:26:10:18 - 00:26:29:13 Speaker 2 So we have to arrange ourselves in such a way that the technology works. And then the basic idea this is like a calculator like before is like you have to do math in your head or you have to do math on paper, right? Or abacus or something like that. You need some kind of internal mental faculty to manipulate numbers. 00:26:29:15 - 00:26:56:17 Speaker 2 And then comes the calculator and a couple of generations. It took a while, but like, no, no basic math. And like, we probably lost something important there. And, and, you know, one could say, well, yes, without said technology revolution, lots of kids didn't know basic math because education was widespread and. Sure. But to me, there's there has to be some kind of like I don't think it's a it's a monotonically increasing curve. 00:26:56:17 - 00:27:18:07 Speaker 2 There's like an optimal point and we don't know where that is. And so I'm always kind of like precautionary principle that there are things that, you know, where where we can kind of maintain a certain level of excellence within our humanity. I personally like to favor those things. I'm very worried about once again, having to become like servant of the machine in the McLuhan sense. 00:27:18:09 - 00:27:40:19 Speaker 1 I think. I think it's I think it's sorry to interrupt you, Marcus. I think it's absolutely, like brilliant. And I love hearing it from someone who is like world famous musician and has studied math because it seems to me like that's like it's I don't know anyone who would be a better messenger when you're at the intersection of science and art, you know, because it's I think you're correct. 00:27:40:21 - 00:27:58:17 Speaker 1 And I think a lot of people would say you're correct. I think in terms of, you know, we're going to run out of time to go through like all of the technologies that's on the horizon because there are there are I mean, there's AR, there's VR, there's obviously social media, there's 3D sound and, you know, blockchain and machine learning and all these like trendy terms. 00:27:58:17 - 00:28:15:14 Speaker 1 But they're real. So what among those are you like really excited about in terms of future of music? Are there is there one or two in there that you're like, this is actually maybe going to serve us better than we have to serve it? 00:28:15:16 - 00:28:48:07 Speaker 2 No, I kind of see both sides over over everything. Like social media is like it's fluctuating. Like it's probably not healthy for us now. But there's also a lot of creative destruction in it. Like these social media platforms have only existed since like around 2000, 2005, and they've they've gone through periods of ascendance and and recession. And so, like TikTok is a thing now, and there are lots of writers who are up in arms about TikTok because like it's TikTok going to be here in five years, Like, is it going to be something that is worse in the way that we think it's worse? 00:28:48:07 - 00:29:00:20 Speaker 2 Or there's or is there going to be a correction like a new generation will come in and they won't want to do what their parents are doing. So like Facebook was the worst for millennials, but then like the next generation came in is like Facebook is for old people. Like we don't like that anymore. So we jump to something else. 00:29:00:20 - 00:29:17:08 Speaker 2 Like the next generation is going to say, TikTok is for old people. Like we're not because we don't want to do so. Like what's going to happen? So I don't know. It does kind of emphasize celebrity and and brain hacks and that probably isn't too healthy for us. But like, who knows what the next thing is going to do then? 00:29:17:08 - 00:29:40:12 Speaker 2 Like 3D audio spatial sound, it's a it's cool tech. The hardware demand seems high. And I think that's the same thing with virtual reality, which is like, I don't necessarily want to walk around like looking like data from Star Trek. To me, I still have a relationship with the real world and that's primary, although that might not be true of later Gen Z and Gen Alpha, they may feel like their digital identity is more important. 00:29:40:12 - 00:29:49:22 Speaker 2 And so, you know, doing awkward, doing things that appears awkward in the real world is less of a concern if their digital identity is functional. 00:29:49:24 - 00:30:08:19 Speaker 1 And the like. Sorry to go, but like there are, there are certain like things like, you know, I mean it was 2019 that like Marshmello, the DJ like showed up in Fortnite and gave a concert to like 250,000 people, a crazy number. Maybe it was even more it was like something that you couldn't pack into a stadium at the biggest magnitude. 00:30:08:19 - 00:30:17:23 Speaker 1 And like these like people. It's not just kids like show up. I mean, that virtual space for exposure, I mean, to you and me, I'm sure we're like, what? Why would you do that? 00:30:17:24 - 00:30:19:04 Speaker 2 Right? 00:30:19:06 - 00:30:27:21 Speaker 1 Like, you're missing something. But maybe there's beauty in that as well. I don't know. I don't I don't feel judgment. I just know that that happened. And I was like, What? Look. 00:30:27:23 - 00:30:49:17 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah, there was. There was another one, I think Kid Cudi and Travis Scott did a did a similar concert in Fortnite that was like that was massive. So, no, I meet younger, younger people all the time and there's a sense that the cultivation of their digital identity is as if not more important than the cultivation of their physical identity. 00:30:49:23 - 00:31:20:03 Speaker 2 And I don't know what that means. That's, that's foreign to me. But, but it seems very real to them. And yet, like, I don't know, I have my misgivings about it, but like, I don't I don't know where it goes. Yeah. So blockchain, I think smart contracts could be really interesting. I can't tell how much it's going to take hold like the bitcoin hype was super big during the pandemic and then bitcoin crashed and then like all the bitcoin bro's like, wanted to like focus on becoming better men like that. 00:31:20:03 - 00:31:21:10 Speaker 2 I really do. 00:31:21:10 - 00:31:25:22 Speaker 1 I'm not touching that one. Yeah. 00:31:25:24 - 00:31:47:08 Speaker 2 It was just like this, this, this weird energy around it, you know, blockchain. I have a, I have concerns about like the with A.I. too. It's like there's an energy, like there's an energy consumption. It's very large and there's also an entropy thing which is like this is still powered by hardware. And how do you maintain such a large hardware demand? 00:31:47:08 - 00:31:48:15 Speaker 2 I don't know how to do that. Maybe the energy. 00:31:48:16 - 00:32:03:12 Speaker 1 And as you said, the energy that it takes to maintain the cloud, the data that all of this puts out, and most people are not thinking about this. And, you know, as a sustainability expert like it's a big deal. It's like that's our digital footprints. It's just growing. 00:32:03:14 - 00:32:05:10 Speaker 2 Right? Right. 00:32:05:12 - 00:32:21:04 Speaker 1 But it could be interest I mean, blockchain specifically for artists, I'm always curious, like to to maintain ownership, you know, But when you start then having AI like, you know, avatars of voices and things like it will be interesting to see how those two things might coalesce, right? 00:32:21:04 - 00:32:55:16 Speaker 2 Or like, so you have something on a blockchain and it's protected by smart contracts, let's say, but then do the smart contracts as they were conceived before the A.I. web scraping. Like are they actually going to give you a proper payout? And now, since your thing is on a blockchain and like completely on the Internet and, you know, I don't know the degree to which that the the insurance of having a very stable blockchain actually turns into a massive liability because everything is concentrated in one place and easily accessible to some kind of nefarious actor as well. 00:32:55:16 - 00:33:23:24 Speaker 2 Like back to this idea of federated niches like another author I like Nassim Taleb kind of talks about like redundancy is really important in nature. You don't want one one organism taking up a whole biological function for an ecosystem because if something happens and the whole ecosystem collapses as well, you got like a bunch of different kinds of bees, like, yeah, there's pesticides killing off this bee, but these bees can still pollinate and that thing doesn't completely fall apart. 00:33:24:12 - 00:33:25:05 Speaker 1 It’s evolution. 00:33:25:07 - 00:33:36:23 Speaker 2 Yeah, yeah. And like optimizing things digitally in this way, whereas like from an engineering perspective, like maximize efficiency, but you also kind of get this weird vulnerability there that you. 00:33:36:23 - 00:33:37:21 Speaker 1 Yeah, like if you have one master 00:33:37:22 - 00:33:38:10 Speaker 2 Right. 00:33:38:12 - 00:33:52:04 Speaker 1 Right? If you have one master, like shit, like, that's tough, tough luck, you know that the studio burns down like, which, you know, you can't have one master. Yeah, and I'm referring to music, and I. 00:33:52:04 - 00:33:54:18 Speaker 2 Yeah, I got. I got it. 00:33:54:20 - 00:34:10:20 Speaker 1 Well, we're on time, so I'm going to throw the last question, which I'm always super excited to hear about. Like with everything that you see and think and do, like what's your greatest hope for music, let's say like 25 years from now? Like, imagine it's 2050. Like, what's your greatest hope for the state of music? 00:34:10:22 - 00:34:37:19 Speaker 2 Yeah, that, that there will be enough people who have the rigor and discipline and, and skill and talent to be able to keep beautiful things alive. Like we're talking about beauty as being of a permanent and but it's only a permanent because up till now we've had people who recognize, recognize that certain things are beautiful and should be preserved. 00:34:37:21 - 00:35:08:08 Speaker 2 You think about, like what that was and like before the printing press, like you had monks copying out like the Vulgate Bible or scribes in Tibet doing the same thing for their holy texts. It's like, this is beautiful and this is really important knowledge. So keeping this and you know, when there's so much stuff and when the culture, so much stuff is overwhelming in life, become so individuated, we may we may lose a sense of common values, of being able to identify, select things that are beautiful. 00:35:08:08 - 00:35:45:13 Speaker 2 And we may lose the people who are capable of playing the best of classical music or playing the best of jazz or or that kind of thing, because the economy doesn't really allow them to continue to survive as an archivist. And the you know, so, like, my hope is if that doesn't happen and that this this kind of recognition of of what does kind of bring out the best in us is preserved by by the coming generations and can be and new things that enter into that can and can be recognized and elevated such. 00:35:45:15 - 00:36:02:04 Speaker 1 I could almost cry. That was absolutely beautiful. I hope for the same thing. Marcus Miller, musical director to grace his foundation that not to mention absolutely esteemed musical talent yourself. Thank you for joining us on this episode of Future Music, Future of X, Y, Z. 00:36:02:06 - 00:36:04:12 Speaker 2 Very welcome. It was a great time. 00:36:04:14 - 00:36:10:18 Speaker 1 Everyone watching and listening. We'll see you in two weeks. Thanks so much.