Latest / Rethink Revive with David Leake / Is Church for God or for People? Exploring the Real Purpose of the Church

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Is Church for God or for People? Exploring the Real Purpose of the Church · Rethink Revive with David Leake

• 0:00
  Dave Leake: So today I want to talk about the question, Who is church for when we talk about a weekend service for a church? So there's this whole, whole factor of people that we're focusing on, and then there's also, like the hidden figure, which is then church being for God. Okay,
• 0:19
  Jeff Leake: so why should people care about this question. Why does this matter?
• 0:24
  Dave Leake: Hey, everybody, welcome to the Allison Park leadership podcast, where we have our culture creating conversations. My name is David Lee
• 0:31
  Jeff Leake: and my name is Jeff, and of course, we're father and son. I'm the pastor at Allison Park church, and Dave is now a church planter. Moved to Jacksonville, Florida to plant salt church. And so this is, this is our first episode since the move. Dave, how you doing good?
• 0:45
  Dave Leake: Yeah, back up here for a week to teach at APLA. And yeah, left 73 nice degree weather, and came to 25 I know, and it's snowing and everything so, but it's for a week. It's nice to be back for a little bit. Yeah, and yeah, next time we record, hopefully we'll be on like a new virtual thing where we go back and forth, and I'll be on my couch in Florida, and he'll be here. And so, yeah, excited for this continued process.
• 1:09
  Jeff Leake: So and this set that we're on right here is actually going to be the set that melody now are going to use for the character based parenting podcast, which the first episode should be out fairly soon. So that's another thing that we're doing. I know we have some people to shout out, right? We haven't had this for a little while, and this today, we got four Yes. Come on
• 1:28
  Dave Leake: so quick. Shout outs. Thank you to Nikki, 1016, Karen p4 444, trellis, 66, and then Susie hellblink, thank you for your kind words.
• 1:37
  Jeff Leake: Yes. Thank you so much. And anytime that you subscribe or leave us a like or a comment or five star review like this, it helps spread the word, so we appreciate you doing that. And as we say, This podcast is culture creating conversations. And so last time we talked about parenting and spanking and biblical guidelines for things like that. What is our what is our culture creating conversation for today? Okay, this is a surprise. You haven't even told me. No, I've told you, but I didn't tell you which one I picked. Okay, okay, yeah, people would be surprised to know that sometimes. So you prep. But I think this works better when, when I'm reacting to what you've prepared. Sure, sometimes I prepare a little bit, but yeah, today we're just going for it. So
• 2:27
  Dave Leake: okay, yeah. So today I want to talk about the question, Who is church for?
• 2:30
  Dave Leake: Okay, all right, so let me frame this when we talk about a weekend service for a church, I realized that there's a there's a multiple, layered target audience, if you will. Like, there's not just like one group people that church is for. For the weekends, we're having people that have never been to church ever in their lives, with people that are from other countries, that are from different cultures. We have people that have been believers for a month or a week, or sometimes for 3540 more years.
• 3:08
  Dave Leake: So there's this whole, whole factor of people that we're focusing on. Some of them are members. Some of them are just attending. They're going to different churches. And then there's also, like the hidden figure, which I want to talk about more, which is then church being for God, which sounds weird, but I'm just talking about when we're talking about, who is church for? Our meetings are, yeah, we're not, not, not the capital C church in general.
• 3:33
  Dave Leake: Meet when, weekend services.
• 3:36
  Jeff Leake: Okay, so why should people care about this question?
• 3:39
  Jeff Leake: Because, because that this seems very theoretic. So if someone's listening to this podcast on a regular basis, what, why is this matter?
• 3:48
  Dave Leake: So I will, let's okay. Let me get into this. All right. So I'm focusing right now on getting ready to launch a church in a little less than a year. Okay? And I had a dream that kind of was like a burden from God dream. You know, you've had those, like you talked about the one with the tiger and the baby itself, and so that's where this comes from. Okay, I've been thinking about this a lot. Here was the dream. The dream was that I was, I was in like, a worship setting, like, and I don't know, like, I guess so it zoomed in, and I think it was at the service, whatever. And there's a worship leader that as a ghost by the name of John Wilds. He's on, like, a lot of like, he's on up room and Bethel and Jesus image, you would, you would maybe know him. You saw him, or heard his voice, and he was singing a song. I don't think it's a real song, like I've never heard the song before. I don't know the lyrics either now, but I know the the general part of the song. He was singing this song, and he was like, it was a song where, at this part, he was repenting for being so focused on guests that he was neglecting or we were.
• 4:58
  Dave Leake: Collecting to focus on God, that that was in the song. That was in the song, okay? So it's, I don't think it's right. I'm coming back to the heart of worship, kind of that spirit. It was sort of that, because it's all about you, yes, yes, but, but that song is sort of like, I'm not going to just get caught in the motions of church, yeah.
• 5:18
  Dave Leake: And let's focus on the heart of worship, which is on God, this was more of a is
• 5:24
  Jeff Leake: this John Wilde's kind of a theme? I
• 5:27
  Dave Leake: don't think so. He was just in the dream. And then after, after that was over, John, if you're hearing this podcast, you need to call David Lee happy wild literally, yeah, no, but yeah, that. So the dream, you know, went from there, and then I was having a conversation about this, you know, this worship service with some friends, and then the dream ended, and I woke up, and I just started to feel sort of this burden, like I should be praying about this. And so from that, it sort of sparked this question for me that I think is worth playing out. I'll say this. I don't have a full stance or answer, but it's a question that I don't think I've asked or heard asked a whole lot, that I think is worth exploring. And I think it's for more than just for leaders. I think it's for our
• 6:16
  Jeff Leake: church. So when you come to church, who is it for?
• 6:20
  Jeff Leake: So let's when you design a service, who are you designing it for? Yeah,
• 6:25
  Dave Leake: so So us as a church, whether you're Allison Park church, or in the future, you're gonna be part of salt church, or you part of a different church altogether. And we're talking about who the service the weekend services are targeted at. And I know the answer is more than one answer, yeah, but I'm saying the primary focus
• 6:45
  Jeff Leake: so, right? So one of the things we've talked about often is that some people go to church like a consumer, and they think this is for me, right? And so they evaluate everything, like, did the sermon that I did?
• 6:54
  Jeff Leake: Like? Did I like it? Did I enjoy it was helpful to me? Was the worship? Did I prefer those songs? Would that make me feel connected like so if you think of it just as a consumer, you're coming in and saying, how would I rate this, this experience on a scale of one to five, based on whether or not it made me feel motivated, inspired and and challenged? Okay? So, and obviously we know that's not proper, right? Because if you're going to church as a consumer, then you end up with a consumer version of Christianity, sure.
• 7:28
  Jeff Leake: So, so, so, but you're talking something beyond, yeah,
• 7:31
  Dave Leake: okay, so, so let me, let me break down how I think I see it. So when we talk about, okay, now for for the average person that's not in ministry leadership, right now this, this is probably like talking ministry strategy, but I think it's broader than just that.
• 7:44
  Dave Leake: Well, let's start here, when we're talking about how we how we design services, or the purpose or our why, I think a very, very common way to design a service is a service is for the guest. It's for the unbeliever. And we would even like, we've talked about this over the years, so it's like there are certain things that we're going to reserve for believers only rooms, but we are designing our services with the unchurched or the unbeliever or the curious or the spiritually sensitive in mind. Doesn't mean that it's just for them. It's obviously for much more than just them, right? But like, there are certain things that we are specifically doing because we want to make sure we're ready for them. And that's not, I don't think it's a bad thing.
• 8:27
  Dave Leake: I'm not coming against that right? Then there are some churches that I think are very believers focused, and their services are like, Hey, listen, you know, we love guests. We want you to be a part of this, but we're going to go really, really deep and meaty on our teachings, because we're all about understanding the depths of God's Word. We want to be growing. And I think again, these are purposes that they overlap for churches in general, okay, but it's like a believer
• 8:53
  Jeff Leake: story, or you find a church that's not going deep in terms of teaching, but they're having more expressive and lengthier encounters with God, yeah, like long times of worship, and maybe times around the altar. Maybe there's gifts of the Holy Spirit that are operating that might feel awkward or weird to someone who's a guest, but it really isn't for them. It's for the people that have come for that experience.
• 9:18
  Dave Leake: That's right, okay, so, and then there's then there's some churches are
• 9:22
  Jeff Leake: built to suit the taste of their more prominent givers or their longtime members. And so it becomes a sort of a traditional approach that you don't change anything because you don't want anybody be mad, right? Exactly. And then there's the whole bill hybrids movement, which was a seeker driven Church, which was make the church to be like the slickest performance that you can find, that would rival going to the theater downtown, right, and in the context of bringing your guests to a great musical, dramatic, motivational talk.
• 10:00
  Jeff Leake: Right? You would then be able to present the gospel to them so that they could, they could get saved Exactly. So we've just named this full spectrum of options. And, okay, all churches are designing services, right?
• 10:10
  Jeff Leake: No doubt. And there's and you probably have a you're listening to this podcast, you probably have a preference, sure, like, you're like, Well, I prefer I like a church that goes like in the Word, or I like a church that has more longer experiential worship, or I like a church that is guest friendly, or that it really focuses on fellows, yeah, or that is more traditional liturgical that follows, you know, a liturgy that's been going back for hundreds of years, which I understand is very attractive, traditional to a lot of young people right now. So, yes, go ahead.
• 10:41
  Dave Leake: But the question that I have, that I'm talking about is, when we talk about church and specifically about our weekend experiences, who is the primary target? And I think it's important to ask that question I heard, you know, I know we've talked about a couple times, Nathan finocchio was talking about how sometimes we're really, really, really focused on unbelievers, but a lot of times New Testament.
• 11:07
  Dave Leake: We're talked we're taught to treat believers actually a specific way, and the church is often like, you know, outsiders are welcome. We want every we want to expand the kingdom. We want to spread the gospel. But church should also be focused on the saints and not just on people that are not Christian.
• 11:24
  Dave Leake: So he talked about that. But this, this dream, I felt like, was oriented around the question, like, when it comes to like, who this is for? Is this mostly for like? Is the main target, the one that, the one that wins, that gets the top level decisions made, like, well, we got to make sure. Or is that, is that our unbelievers?
• 11:46
  Dave Leake: Is it like, just the curious? Is it members? What did you feel like the dream meant to you? I felt like what the dream meant was that we don't talk about God as being a target of our services.
• 12:01
  Jeff Leake: So, but if it's a prophetic dream, yeah, the Holy Spirit was saying something to you. So what's the Holy Spirit saying to you?
• 12:08
  Dave Leake: So, you know? Okay, where Jesus talks about the the commit the great commandment, you know. He says, Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind, strength, and the second is like it, love your neighbor as yourself. So there was a book that Josh and I have been discussing where the proposition in the book is, maybe the Evangelical Church, the Protestant church in general, has sort of said, well, we love the Lord our God by loving our neighbor by outreach, by services, but he's saying the priority was always meant to be love God first, okay, and then love people. But you gave me an educational answer. Give me a personal answer. What do you feel like? The Holy Spirit I feel like. I feel like, with saying to you, in the dream with this next generation that I'm a part of okay, and nothing against how things have been done. I'm just talking about where I feel like, the what Spirit's leading us. I think that the thing that I felt instructed on is that we need to be a church. And when I say we, I'm talking about my church that I'm starting, yes, that's focused on hosting the presence of God. Okay, where, where the order of priorities is first and foremost. How well are we doing at hosting the presence of God, and then we have whoever comes next after that, and it's important to do all those things. I don't think it's just one or the other, but where, where we have an order of priorities and so, but that
• 13:34
  Jeff Leake: sounds less strong than your dream. So your dream said that John will Wilds was repenting for the fact that God had not been the primary audience. Yes, and did you feel like I was saying that was for you that you're supposed to repent change your mind about the way that you've been approaching things. I
• 14:02
  Dave Leake: felt like what God was saying was when, when you're building this new house, like, for God, make sure you have the priorities in order. Okay, where what you're doing is considering who the primary audience is. I don't think I've ever like, this is weird to say. But when, like, I realized church is all about Jesus is all for Jesus. But when we're talking about services, I don't think I've thought of an audience being God as one of the primary talk targets. Like, well, what does he think about this? It's like, well, this is, this is, I'll give a really good example of one of the things I've been wrestling through. You know, when it comes to worship and the theology of worship, my understanding is, as I've been looking into it, more worship is a ministry that's unto God. So it's a way that we give Him praise and it pleases Him, and so when we worship His people, we're ministering to God by giving Him our praise. It's a god focused ministry the way.
• 14:58
  Dave Leake: Yeah, I've thought about it previously, in the past, is almost as if it's a moment for people to connect with God and so like, let's create an environment and a situation where
• 15:09
  Jeff Leake: even the way that you described it host his presence. That also implies an experience.
• 15:16
  Dave Leake: But is the experience meant for people, or is it meant to serve God as the person we're inviting, like the top person that gets the top seat? Okay, you understand what I'm saying and so. So for me, I think what I've been exploring is what does it look like when a church does a really good job, first and foremost, at focusing on hosting, the presence of God versus what does it look like when we maybe are a little bit, I don't know, I don't know if the word is imbalanced, but when we have our priorities where maybe we're a little too focused on hosting, let's say a guest hosting, guests over hosting God's presence. Okay, are you okay with where this is going?
• 16:01
  Dave Leake: No,
• 16:01
  Jeff Leake: yeah. So I wanted to make sure that before we moved on into my thoughts of this, that I got clear on what the dream meant for you. Because a prophetic dream is a very significant, sure, sure. And if it really was a god dream, then it's obviously something God was trying to say to you, sure. And so you were feeling around it, but I think we got to the core of what you wanted to say. Yeah.
• 16:20
  Jeff Leake: So all right, so how do you want to proceed? I can react a little bit if you want me to.
• 16:27
  Dave Leake: So let me do this. I wrote down some initial thoughts on what I think the contrast looks like. And then maybe we can go into reacting. We can discuss what things could look like or should look like. Maybe we want to talk about the biblical basis for these. Okay, that's where
• 16:44
  Jeff Leake: I was going to go first. Great. The big biblical basis.
• 16:47
  Dave Leake: Okay, so can I just, I sort of was, was focusing on fleshing out my thoughts on what it looks like when there's an imbalance. Can I talk about that quickly? Or do you want to do scripture first? You're
• 16:58
  Jeff Leake: leading this, my friend, right? So let me do this.
• 17:02
  Dave Leake: Where do I have this? Okay, so here's, here's what I have. So and by the way, for the record, I think APC does a very good job of hosting God's presence. This did not feel like a
• 17:15
  Jeff Leake: criticism of, oh no, no, no. I'm not taking it that way. I guess so if I have a sensitivity to anything about this, is that, you know, I've lived a long time, and I've seen the seasons come and go, and the emphasis is shift over time, sure. And what I have a personal objection to was when someone says this is the right way to do it, because I've been through some cycles with that. And I think there's, there's, um, there's always, I don't want to use the word balance. There's always different emphasis that are all of equal importance, or at least should be of some degree of importance, that if you ignore the other influences, then you end up off in some weird spot. Yeah. And so I don't want the pendulum to swing too widely, but I like where you're going, and I'm not taking it critically of Allison mark at all. All right, so keep going.
• 18:09
  Jeff Leake: Okay.
• 18:10
  Dave Leake: So all right, so here's what I have. What is a church focused on hosting God's presence look like? These are raw thoughts that are probably not finished, and this might change wildly in the next 10 months forever. So one thing I have is this, a church focused on hosting God's presence, I think has a focus on what I would term as the purity of worship. What that means to me is this, I think that if worship is God focused? I think it should be. I think that's there's really not a biblical case for the other I think people connect with God in worship, but the purpose is not connection. The purpose is giving him praise. The purpose is giving him the glory He deserves.
• 18:53
  Jeff Leake: That's a prejudice of mine. I always, I always feel that the songs selected in a public gathering should be declaring the attributes and the majesty of who God is. A lot of songs sing about me, songs, some songs are me, what God does for me, what I feel when God I worship him. Sure they're they're songs about my relationship with God, which have their place, sometimes there are prayers that I'm praying, but I think in its purest form, I always want to, I always say upward declarative the recognition of who he is, the glorification of his name.
• 19:30
  Jeff Leake: That's my preference for for the public, which tends to be the things when you activate your your will in that way that that invites the presence of God. I agree, powerful way. Yeah, so, but when I'm thinking of a pure also has to do with holiness, yes, confession of sin. So,
• 19:51
  Dave Leake: so here's right, here's where I'm going with this. I think that if worship is a ministry more to God than it is to people, which I think is how we should. Be looking at it.
• 20:01
  Dave Leake: I think we're talking about more than just music, more than just slow songs. We're talking about a life, but a life that brings so on our weekend experiences, where we're bringing this moment to specifically all focus on giving God worship and praise and glory for who he is. I think that there's like there is an aspect. I know this is going Old Covenant, but I think it's a good comparison. I think there's almost like a Levitical aspect to worship. We're talking about worship music, where I think I would want people to be seeing themselves on the worship team and the worship leaders as as doing something sacred and holy and reverent, you know, to God in a way that is different than just every other aspect of life or of of even a church service.
• 20:53
  Dave Leake: I'm not saying it's better, but I'm saying it's different, like we're going to treat this moment, or we're bringing worship to God is holy. And so for me, you know, I realized that not every Church's assignment is the same. So I'm not saying this is the only right way to do it. When I'm thinking of purity of worship, I'm like, well,
• 21:09
  Jeff Leake: that's, that's a significant statement. What Not every Church's assignment is the same. So this isn't a matter of of the right way. This is a this is a particular calling. Is so is this what every church should be doing, or is this a particular calling depending upon what church you lead in pastor? Well, also because if you're saying, what is church primarily about, then it isn't a matter of interpretation, okay?
• 21:37
  Dave Leake: Well, this part is methodological. Okay? I think a purity of worship is something that we all should be focusing on. My methodology for that would be that I would want, like, again, I'm saying would, because my church doesn't exist yet, but when we're talking about like, who is leading and on the stage for worship, I would rather have less band members and less of a full worship experience, but the people on stage have the right hearts and are all in unity that have a phenomenal thing full of people that don't follow Jesus at all. Do you know what I'm saying? I realize some philosophy that's two pretty big extremes. No, but there, there are some philosophies that are like, You know what? Like, let's get paid musicians. They don't have to be Christians, okay, yeah, see what you mean. We're gonna, like, we just want to have good music, because as long as people are able to connect with God, that's a value decision, yeah, but, but for me, I think, because it's a life thing, okay, then a life that's not a life of worship. I don't want to be part of the work. Do you understand? Yeah, and that's that's in a different way than somebody, I think, like we have to have inroads for somebody who's just starting to start a lord to greet. And by the
• 22:47
  Jeff Leake: way, that might be shocking for some people to hear that there are some churches that hire musicians that are not necessarily a part of their church, a or hired for their heart. They're hired basically for the skill, or their skill.
• 22:59
  Jeff Leake: Yeah, that is not Allison parks approach, but there are churches a lot, sometimes very large ones that that are that,
• 23:06
  Dave Leake: yeah, for sure. I think that probably the ones that do it tend to be larger, yeah, because they can afford to pay their musicians, whereas if you can't, you're just like, hey, who could play something right? Okay, but so purity of worship, it goes beyond just worship moments, but I think it's
• 23:20
  Jeff Leake: there, but the balance of that is too sometimes, when you start a brand new church, you don't have a worship leader, you may be starting with a immature, young believer who wants to have a pure heart
• 23:30
  Dave Leake: and is still working on it, no doubt, a matter of perfection. No, no, no, no, no.
• 23:32
  Dave Leake: We're not talking about we're not talking about finished articles only, yeah, which none of us are anyway, just talking about hunger. We're talking about hunger and the dedication of my life to follow the Lord.
• 23:43
  Dave Leake: Okay, good, right. Keep going.
• 23:43
  Dave Leake: Okay. Second one I have is, I think a church focused on hosting the presence of God has a priority on making space to do listening and not just speaking.
• 23:55
  Dave Leake: Okay, so when a guest comes in the room, if you're just, if you're you're ready to host them, but you here's the debt, but here's we're watching the game, we're doing this, and you have it's so packed that they never even have a chance to say anything. I don't think you're being good host.
• 24:07
  Jeff Leake: Okay? I think so you're inviting God in, and you're going to give some time of waiting in his presence at some point where the Holy Spirit can speak. Yeah,
• 24:16
  Dave Leake: it just has a regular practice, even if it's just little moments that are designed for that. Okay? I think, okay, good. Some of these are just part of our DNA, and they're obvious. But I think hosting the presence of God, you know, without faith, it's impossible to please God. I think bold faith where we're expecting, like, where we're treating God like he's a big God, okay, not like we can only believe for we're positive is going to happen,
• 24:38
  Jeff Leake: expecting the supernatural, yeah, okay.
• 24:42
  Dave Leake: And at atmosphere of love. You know what I mean? Like where, where we show honor, both to God and to people, and we create a loving atmosphere fear of God and reverence. I've been reading these really good books by John Bevere recently, where he talks about how the key sometimes to inviting God's presence into a place. Is treating God with the same fear and respect that he's supposed to have, you know, not, not as in afraid of God and having distance, but treating him as holy and having the reverence that comes with that. So fear of God and reverence, I think you do an excellent job of this one.
• 25:17
  Dave Leake: But messages aim to please God, even at the expense of popularity. I think one of the problems with church in general, in America is sometimes there's a big risk of, if I say these things on a weekend service, I risk losing a lot of people.
• 25:35
  Dave Leake: Yeah, but I personally think the weekend service Okay, while sometimes you need more time to handle complex issues. So some of them might be broken up over weeks, or done in podcast, or done in a podcast, as we do, because it might be very detailed, like, well, we got to really explore this. I don't think that the weekend service should have anything as being off limits.
• 25:58
  Jeff Leake: By the way, I received one of the most precious compliments ever about my preaching ministry, and honestly, I won't mention their name. They're they're new to Allison Park. They said this, so it was such a raw response. And they said, We just love when you speak because you preach dirty.
• 26:16
  Dave Leake: Yeah, I was like, what
• 26:20
  Jeff Leake: they said, Now, like, like, you get up, you get up in it, like, your sleeves are rolled up and you're down there in the dirt with us. And, like, you know, sometimes, sometimes you watch someone make a meal, and then sometimes, like, their sleeves are rolled up and they got flour everywhere. Like, you, you're like, in you're like, you're taking the meatloaf and you're, you're grinding it with your hands, and you're putting it on our plate. So they were like, I feel like you're making it real for me, like it's like I'm there, and it's hitting the parts of where I actually live, and you're breaking the word down, and you tell me the truth.
• 26:52
  Jeff Leake: And so I thought, wow, that's that is a real compliment. Yeah, I think that's what you're talking about.
• 26:59
  Dave Leake: Well, I think, I think when I hear that too. So I think some of that's your delivery and your style, but some of that is like, okay, like, like, recently, you've been on, like, a, I just need to tell you this, and that's that's like, honestly, a god focused service where he's the main patron, he's the main stakeholder, shareholder. You know what I'm saying? It's like, there are some things that I don't think are fun to say or talk about right now, and it's, it's gonna and it might create a mess, because it's like, maybe something we don't talk about enough as an American church.
• 27:33
  Jeff Leake: So there's always, there's a bunch of ways you can do that wrong. So one way is, this is going to be over your head. But I'm going to say this intellectual thing, whether you understand it or not, because sure it's sure, it's the right sounding theology, for sure, or somebody like I'm going to tell you what is my personal pet peeve or prejudice, and I'm going to say it in an unfiltered way, because it makes me feel like I just vented to you. No doubt, right? That's not all that helpful either. Sure I'm really angry about sin, and I'm going to preach angry, because I think God should be angry about this. That's probably not helpful. But someone that says with humility, you know, I've been grappling with this issue, and it's been dealing I've been dealing with it personally. And I just need to say to you, if you're here and you're and this is how you're living, look at what the scripture says here, like honest humility, but like, penetrating clarity about what the Word says, calling people to a place of repentance. Well, even if you're not, this is actually what I love about Philip. Anthony Mitchell, yeah, is he? He preaches that way, like, at least it hits my spirit that way. I feel like, man, he is unapologetically willing to lose followers in order to tell you the truth that you need to hear to save your soul. Yes, yeah.
• 28:44
  Dave Leake: So So in I think humility is key it. I don't think it always be that I've personally wrestled with this, yeah, no, right? I get it, but, but I think it's like a hey, the Bible does say this, yeah. And as your pastor, I'm accountable before God to tell you what the Bible says, right? And if you don't like that, I'm sorry, but I have to at least put it out there, because you need to know, right? Better for somebody to know than to be like, well, this is going to cause so much of a mess if we Yeah,
• 29:10
  Jeff Leake: and I've come to the place better for somebody to leave for the right reason. Yes, they're like, this is what happened with Jesus a lot. You know, he would teach, and then people would walk away and be like, That was a hard teaching.
• 29:21
  Jeff Leake: I don't think I can follow this guy anymore. And you never saw Jesus chase them. Like, oh, it's not that bad. Like, no, let me explain. Like, he, he, let it be what it was, yeah. And he walked away, right? And I think that's good. Now, there's a little bit of a danger with this. Let me, let me. Let me go into the biblical piece, if we use first covenant paradigms to describe the worship setting, I think we can be in danger of producing an Old Covenant approach to God.
• 29:50
  Jeff Leake: Sure, because when you actually look at the New Testament gatherings, they were targeted for different reasons in different places. Places like when they when the early church would meet, when they would meet in the temple courts. I think that was with guests in mind, sure, because it was an outdoor public gathering with a lot of people who were hearing things for the first time when they met together for communion celebrations. I think that was a believers only meeting, sure when they when they gathered together in homes. I think that that was a raw let's get real.
• 30:24
  Jeff Leake: We're all following Jesus. Let's hold each other accountable.
• 30:28
  Jeff Leake: Sure, kind of a meeting. I don't ever see anything in the New Testament where they had long worship services like the Levites in the temple.
• 30:36
  Dave Leake: Well, for the record, I'm not talking about the length, I'm talking about the reason for why we're doing
• 30:43
  Jeff Leake: but even in even in that because what it does seem to be is, if you read First Corinthians, chapter 1213, and 14, and it talks about the function of the gifts of the Spirit, and especially Corinth, which seemed to be the kind of church that's focused, like you said, on the presence of God, on the operation of the supernatural, on pure worship.
• 31:04
  Jeff Leake: They had lost sight of the fact that there could be some people in the room that didn't understand, sure, and so, so they didn't have enough explanation. But you don't really, you don't really get New Testament examples of how church happened.
• 31:16
  Dave Leake: No, right? You don't. Right? You do. Which one may which is
• 31:19
  Jeff Leake: what makes this conversation a little bit complicated, because in our model of ministry, we're trying to pattern everything we do after the church in the book of Acts, like the early church is the be all and end all for us, right? So how do we get back to being like the early church was, and there isn't an early church liturgy, sure or service order or weekend approach. We know they met on the first day of the week. We know they brought their offering to God. We know that this was a symbolic celebration of the resurrection life of Jesus. We know the five purposes were practiced. They worshiped God, they ministered to each other, they fellowshiped with each other, they preached the gospel. You know, they were practicing stewardship. They were involved. And you know, I forget what the first fifth one that I didn't mention there, but you get the point, like they were a balanced congregation that was meeting for all these purposes. But we don't get now Old Testament. We have them bringing things to the sacrifice to the temple and offering it unto God and and in the Levites singing in the temple courts.
• 32:19
  Jeff Leake: But we don't know how much of that got practiced by the New Testament congregations. Yes, but let me, let me though. Okay, so what do you imagine they're in Philippi Paul's plan? Wait, was their
• 32:32
  Dave Leake: worship service like? I'm not sure what their worship service was like, but I think, I think their worship was worship focused, and it wasn't worship. Well, certainly, worship is not the same thing as evangelism, and when it all goes towards evangelism and everything is the purpose of evangelism, it's you miss the purpose of worship. All right, also, okay, so, so let me contrast this. I think. So what
• 32:54
  Jeff Leake: you're saying is seeker oriented churches tend to be only about evangelism, and even their worship is filtered through the lens of evangelism, yes, and the preaching is filtered through the lens of evangelism, and the meetings, and the
• 33:06
  Dave Leake: style that happens with that is, it starts good, but I think if you go there too much, it's, it's a, it becomes a growth focused church, yeah, and not a god focused church. And I know,
• 33:19
  Jeff Leake: hold on, can I have tweetable right there?
• 33:21
  Dave Leake: No, no, I'm not trying to blast I think it's really easy to get there quick, and it's not necessarily that now you're in idolatry. It could get to the point of idolatry, but anything could get to the point of idolatry if you take it too far, like when
• 33:34
  Jeff Leake: Jesus you're saying where we're okay, it's time for us to worship. This is not about the lost right now, this is about, this is about God.
• 33:41
  Jeff Leake: Worship God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, yes, we will worry
• 33:46
  Dave Leake: have the lost mind in terms of explanation, so that they understand what's happening. So you don't be invited in. Yeah, but the worship is about God. Worship isn't about the lost like and I think, I think that's a key distinction. So okay, when Peter, you know Jesus says, Peter, do you love me? He says, Yes, Feed my sheep. I understand that the Great Commission is about making disciples every nation. I realize that that's our mission. But if our mission comes before loving the Lord your God with all your heart, we're missing something.
• 34:16
  Jeff Leake: Well, that's but there are two challenges. The Great Commandment is what you're quoting, yes, love the Lord. You go with all your heart, mind, soul, strength, love your neighbor as yourself. The Great Commission is the other, the other command that Jesus gave.
• 34:27
  Jeff Leake: Well,
• 34:29
  Dave Leake: there's, there's also a new command I give you, love each other, right?
• 34:33
  Jeff Leake: Yeah. So all of them have to be practiced, yes, but they don't. They aren't necessarily practiced simultaneous, simultaneously, yes, which is, I think, when you try to say this one weekend service is going to accomplish all of the purposes that God has for the church, all at the same time, while reaching people that don't know Jesus. That's, that's, that's
• 34:54
  Dave Leake: a tall order. It is a tall order. And and I acknowledge like that God gives different people. People, different roles, different gifts, different assignments. So I'm not saying I know the right way to do church and every other way to do church is wrong, but what I felt the conviction about from this dream and onwards is I think that sometimes we're missing the point of
• 35:16
  Jeff Leake: why. Okay, so let's ask this question, then, is that dream God revealing to you the value system he has for the church in 2025 or has got that God revealing his specific assignment for
• 35:29
  Dave Leake: salt church. I don't know I'm processing through this here, but here's okay. This might help to clarify a little bit. I think that if we are over indexing into evangelism above everything else. It can, it can look a certain way, and it can miss some of the point of what we're supposed to be doing.
• 35:47
  Dave Leake: Okay, so let me, let me describe this. This is going to ruffle some feathers, but I think it's worth grappling with. I'm not saying first list was good list.
• 35:55
  Dave Leake: This list is bad list, and not everything on here is bad, but when it all comes together, I think maybe it misses something.
• 36:01
  Dave Leake: Don't react to every individual one. Okay, I think a church over focused on hosting guests for the sake of growth always, almost always, has a brevity of worship. Worship is something that we need to because everything needs to be brief, because our focus is growth and getting as many guests as possible. So the god part, we got some time for that, but we got to limit it like that's and I understand. Okay, let's keep going. I think that, you know, an over focus on guest church has an aversion to the full Bible. The filter for messages selects either easy passages and felt need topics only, okay? And it's the stuff that's like, complicated. We're not going to get into that. I think this this sort of a guest over focused Church. The messages are almost always aimed at what you get out of following God, and why God's way is the best way for you to live a great life. It's carried on the end of the stick preaching. Well, let me, I know it's hard, but let me explain to you why this is actually better for you.
• 37:03
  Jeff Leake: Now, you know, say almost at the end of that statement, okay, Boomer. Well, that's a boomer way of thinking.
• 37:09
  Jeff Leake: Ah, it's not just Boomer way.
• 37:09
  Jeff Leake: No, no, no, it is. Seriously.
• 37:13
  Jeff Leake: That is the model of church that came up during my era,
• 37:16
  Dave Leake: okay, but, but, I mean, if you think about Donald Miller story brand. He's the guy that wrote blue lick jazz. Like the way that companies tend to do marketing is that the customer is the hero of the story. So I love this. I'm not anti that. But listen,
• 37:33
  Jeff Leake: Dave, in the early 1990s when I was first becoming a pastor, yeah, there was a book that came out called marketing the church. It was, it was for the very first time, church leaders started to think about, hey, maybe we should clarify our message. Maybe we should have a vision statement, yeah, maybe we should tell the people who are outside of this building what we're really all about. Like, maybe we should think about who's on the platform and who can really sing or not before we sure? Like, maybe we should tighten things, maybe we should paint the building like, like, all of a sudden the church world became aware. We could probably do a better job of reaching people outside of us, if we just presented ourselves. We give a rep, which was really good. But then what happened is it became something that filtered everything. Every sermon became titled this way. Every series became titled this way.
• 38:25
  Jeff Leake: Everything about it was marketed. No, not all churches did this, but especially the ones that started to grow were like, this is working. Like this is really happening.
• 38:33
  Dave Leake: Look at how many people are appreciate this.
• 38:35
  Dave Leake: Yeah, I don't want to lose all of this. There was so much that I think was of God. But what we realized,
• 38:40
  Jeff Leake: especially during the pandemic, is with we we went way too far, yeah, and there needed to be a course correction, and we had to deepen. In fact, your generation is sort of like, I'm so tired of that, like, I don't want to hear that anymore. Yes, I want you to smack me upside the head with some truth.
• 38:59
  Dave Leake: Yeah, you know.
• 38:59
  Dave Leake: Okay, so for the record, I just talked about the Donald Miller thing. We use story brand. I like that. But I'm saying, if everything has to be you're the hero, and this is why it's an advantage for you, then it's actually not grappling with what the Bible talks about, which is actually God's the hero, and you're here to give everything to God, yeah, you know. And like, I think as pastors even too, it's like, Listen, I'm not trying to control your life. You can do what you want with this, but Jesus is trying to do that.
• 39:27
  Dave Leake: Like the whole following Him is surrendering everything to him.
• 39:31
  Dave Leake: So okay, let's keep going. Let's keep going again. This is, this is all balance things. This is not, I don't like these things at all. Think there's an over us over emphasis on bottom line.
• 39:40
  Dave Leake: Metrics like, be all, end all is, well, we can track how well we're doing as a church based on attendance. As an example, tithes, whatever campuses, okay next, reaching people versus obedience to God's word. Yeah, or like, what were the other metrics? Be. Okay, some of these are hard to measure. But, I mean, I think, I think discipleship and fruitfulness so people that multiply,
• 40:09
  Jeff Leake: it's always hard.
• 40:09
  Jeff Leake: When you get into qualitative measurements, it's always
• 40:12
  Dave Leake: harder. But Jesus typically measures more by quality. Yeah, he never
• 40:17
  Jeff Leake: really measured crowd size. No, they they reported it, but it wasn't the measurement of his success as a person.
• 40:24
  Dave Leake: It was, it was how many qualitative decisions that we have here. Yeah, even
• 40:28
  Jeff Leake: that, I don't know that they really measured. I'm not sure
• 40:31
  Dave Leake: that they're individual. I shouldn't say they're counting them as in, like, Let's track the numbers, but the
• 40:35
  Jeff Leake: stories, but people, tracking things is another part of our
• 40:39
  Dave Leake: culture, right?
• 40:39
  Dave Leake: That's part of the American culture, for sure. Yeah, I think. And there is a book of Numbers, yeah, I'll hit, I'll hit a few more, just very fast over focus on guests, reaching people, quote, unquote, equals weekly attendance and maybe involvement, but not necessarily, life transformation. Can't look that hard into that, because we don't really know that. Know what's happening. There's a premium on having an excellent program, quote, developing leaders and quarterly or yearly growth. And then ultimately, when I was processing this, I ended sort of on this question, like, to me, this is like leadership church, or this is like business church, and a lot of it's not, I don't think that's a heretical, awful thing. There's a lot of good but it maybe can get over focused on some things with businesses. You know, in corporate America, there are stakeholders and there are shareholders. This is part of what this question came out of. This question. So, like, if we're, if we're focused on, like, Hey, you're developing leaders. We're developing leaders. We're doing the same thing. Like, that's secular, but we're doing it. Like, leadership is discipleship kind of a thing.
• 41:39
  Dave Leake: I think there's a chance to miss some things, just even we need leaders. I love leadership books. I read them all the time, but disciples at their core are followers. Leaders at their core are leaders. You know what I mean. And we need leaders to make disciples, but we need disciples more than we need leaders. So I guess this is sort of the question like, if, if we think we're taking so many business and leadership principles to the church, and those are good, I don't want to lose them. I don't want to go back to scattered chaos. And we don't think about the building.
• 42:09
  Dave Leake: We don't think about but who are our stakeholders? Is it the members? Is it the number of guests? Is it the reputation that we have? Or is it? What does God think about?
• 42:22
  Jeff Leake: Well, yes, it's all those things. Okay, it's first of all, pleasing God. Of course, he's got to be number one. But it should be a community engagement. It should be people that don't know Jesus. It should be the people that that are your growing, committed believers.
• 42:35
  Jeff Leake: Has to
• 42:37
  Dave Leake: be always know if we're pleasing God, then like if God.
• 42:41
  Jeff Leake: So let me just say this You are now listening live to a conversation between an older pastor and his church planter. Yeah, right, and a son and so what I always say, I'm a little put a little parentheses in the middle of this intense discussion, is that church planting is the research and development arm of the church.
• 43:01
  Jeff Leake: One of the things I love about being so engaged with people who are planting churches is that you are, you get the opportunity to invent and reinvent church without the risk, because you don't have to worry about losing people right now, because you don't have somebody, right so you're, you're going to go in with a philosophy that you can afford to take some risks with, that someone who passes a pre existing church might not imagine these things because they have a group of people they have to lead somewhere. Sure.
• 43:32
  Jeff Leake: Okay, so Dave is having a very idealistic, Holy Spirit oriented assigned conversation that if you're a pastor, we don't want you to walk away feeling condemned about but no, no, please don't. Yeah, you were asking some very good questions.
• 43:47
  Jeff Leake: That that I think now will probably shape the formation of salt church, yes, and as your church is formed, may influence the way other churches do church, okay? Probably will influence how Allison Park does church, okay, so that's, that's all a good thing. So what was your question? Again, how do you know if you're pleasing God?
• 44:05
  Dave Leake: Well, when we're talking about shareholders, I know that's a weird thing, but I think it's an apt comparison.
• 44:11
  Dave Leake: We're growing our church. We're focused on producing a harvest 3060, 100 fold that you just talked about in his parable of the seed. And so when we're when we're talking about, like, the way we're designing church, and who needs to be most pleased?
• 44:28
  Dave Leake: There are a number of audiences.
• 44:28
  Dave Leake: There are there are, like, there's the unchurched, you know, Andy Stanley used to say building a church for those that unchurched people love to come to. There's members. They've been Chris,
• 44:39
  Jeff Leake: you would kind of object to that phrase. I would way I would object. You would say, building a church that the Holy Spirit loves to visit, yeah?
• 44:48
  Dave Leake: And I think you can have both, okay, okay, but in order of
• 44:51
  Jeff Leake: priority, yes, yes, you would say, if salt church has a value system,
• 44:56
  Dave Leake: it beats people.
• 44:56
  Dave Leake: Yes, God gets guests. Yeah.
• 44:59
  Dave Leake: Well. And you know what, I actually think in my
• 45:02
  Jeff Leake: building a church that the Holy Spirit wants to visit and that unchurched people will potentially love to attend.
• 45:09
  Jeff Leake: If they're willing to repent of their sin and deal with their issues and come to Jesus and follow Him, then yes. And if they're not, they're probably going to feel uncomfortable, right? Well, that's not Andy's philosophy, no, right? So that's a very different philosophy. No.
• 45:21
  Jeff Leake: Slam on Andy. For that philosophy, that's his assignment. What you're saying.
• 45:27
  Jeff Leake: But for you, salt, church will be a place where primarily the presence of the Holy Spirit will be welcomed, and that secondarily things will be filtered for guests. Yes, now you're not going to be the kind of church that says we're a solely believers church, and if you're going to make your way in here as a unbeliever, good luck.
• 45:43
  Jeff Leake: No, right? We are not going to make anything easy for you.
• 45:46
  Jeff Leake: We're not going to interpret anything. We're not explaining anything. If you get saved, you get saved. We're going to just, this is for this is for us, and God, right now, right which, I don't think God's pleased with that either, because he cares about the lost more than anything else. Yeah, 100% so if you're going to you're gonna, you're gonna invite the presence of God, you're gonna invite his heart into your atmosphere, which is for the lost, and it's for broken and hurting people.
• 46:07
  Jeff Leake: And okay, so, but yeah, I think that's, I think you got clarity for what kind of church
• 46:14
  Dave Leake: you want to build.
• 46:14
  Dave Leake: Yeah, I don't really know what it's gonna feel like,
• 46:18
  Jeff Leake: well, but nothing.
• 46:18
  Jeff Leake: But you're talking about values now, not methods. You're right.
• 46:20
  Jeff Leake: And methods will have to be shaped as you find your worship leader and you figure out what you're capable of, what your room looks like, and you know, so a lot of that. And if you are having pure, holy worship services with three people there, you're probably gonna say, we need to do some more outreach. You know what I mean, like, right? So it's, there's, there's always a balance to it, although I will say it's so I'll throw a little anecdote in from my friend, one of my one of the people I admire most in the world is Bishop Barnabas mutakambali, who's the Archbishop of the Assemblies of God in Tanzania. And he planted a church, and his, here's his church, better planning method, he planted more guru, which is a city in Tanzania. He would go up, there's a big mountain there in that city, go up on top of the mountain, pray until the Holy Spirit told him to go down.
• 47:11
  Jeff Leake: Then he would go down into the city and look for the person that he that God would show him either needed to pray for physical healing or deliverance from demons. It's amazing. I love that. And so he would pray for someone. They would experience the power of God, and they would join his launch team after they had an encounter with Christ, yeah. They would go back up to the mountain to pray. And now his church has what, several 1000 people has planted, I think, 400 churches over the years. He's leading the whole nation, yeah. So that's not your typical American leadership oriented church planting method, but it was clearly his assignment from God. And there's a little bit of the dimension of what you're talking about there.
• 47:50
  Dave Leake: I think, I think the way that I'm painting it almost makes it seem like my church is going to be a worship church focus. But I don't think I'm even saying that the priority is on worship music, but I'm saying, I think the value has to be, what does God think about what we're doing, and not just we're going to do things that will please God, and by that we're serving Him, and it will be pleased like, Yes, that's true, yeah. And there are things that we should definitely be doing. But, you know, I just, I've had this for a while. I've had this, like, longing to experience some of the same things. Yes, that they experienced the book of Acts, but even just that a century ago that were exploding, like 1920s 1930s 40s, 50s. You know what I'm talking about, like with after Azusa Street and the
• 48:37
  Jeff Leake: outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the revivals. So I pastored through some of that I know I've been through. So I've been at Allison Park, and we've gone through eras where I would say we were very much presence focused, and had seasons of great revival. And then probably that became a little stale, simply because we got married to a liturgy, yeah, a Pentecostal liturgy, a format for a service.
• 49:04
  Jeff Leake: And was no longer about God.
• 49:07
  Jeff Leake: It's about following this pattern where that God had blessed in the past, and so then we had to keep on following what the Holy Spirit was doing. And after the revival we experienced, we went back into doing what I would call a holistic approach with small groups and outreaches and, yeah, Bible teaching. And then we started planting churches and functioning apostically. And there were times we swung, swung a little bit more Seeker oriented, and there have been times we've been swung a little bit more Holy Spirit oriented.
• 49:36
  Jeff Leake: And I think even your assignment as a church can sometimes shift and change depending upon the time and season. I agree with you. But like you might say, man, you know what, we have become so believer focused, we got to do something to start reaching people. Or you say, man, we have become so focused on guests that we aren't spending enough time seeking the face of God. I think this is a you'll never hit a perfect balance with it. I agree. But.
• 49:58
  Jeff Leake: You at least know the foundation of where God's leading you. I always say there are three things that have to be mobilized on a regular basis for a church to be healthy. Okay, so I don't know that I've ever told you this before. So the body, the word and the presence of the Holy Spirit. If you have if you have a church that mobilizes the body and preaches the word but the Holy Spirit is not active, that church will feel dead. If you have a church that the word is preached and the Holy Spirit is moving, but no one is ever equipped to do ministry, that church will feel like a show. If you have a church where the Holy Spirit is moving and the body's released but the word isn't preached properly. That church
• 50:44
  Dave Leake: will be weird. Yeah?
• 50:44
  Dave Leake: Heresy and yeah, yes. But
• 50:47
  Jeff Leake: when you have all three, when you're mobilizing and equipping the body, when you're preaching the word effectively, and when you're welcoming the Holy Spirit, there, you have a balanced congregation that will be healthy. Yeah? And those three things I try to keep in mind as I lead Allison park, there are times when I think we need to swing more toward the word. I think, if there's anything that's happened in the last five years at Allison Park is we've gone more in depth in the word, so
• 51:15
  Dave Leake: can I? Can I make a comment on this? Yes, I didn't read this part. I was almost into my list of hosting the President's church feel, but the last one I had was, you know, has a priority in reading the Word of God. And I don't just mean yes, personally, outside of church, but I read this. I don't know if I told you this. I was reading a Smith Wigglesworth biography, and one of the stories that made an impact in me is they were talking about how he went to one service, and he read, like, very slowly, like, a whole chapter of John.
• 51:48
  Dave Leake: And it like, took, like, I don't know, he was kind of eccentric in the way he would do things.
• 51:51
  Dave Leake: He was an evangelist from from England and the Yeah, 20th century, whatever, anyway. And after he finished preaching, there was a woman that came up to him that that essentially told him, like, I didn't really know that I got anything from your message, but I've never heard anybody read John like that. And it was like, as he was just slowly reading the word, like God spoke to her powerfully, and she was transformed just by hearing the Word of God. I think when I was younger, and you sort of you. I remember you. Well, that's
• 52:21
  Jeff Leake: actually one of the things Paul says to Timothy, devote yourself to the public reading of Scripture. Yeah. It's actually a New Testament idea.
• 52:27
  Jeff Leake: When you Pastor, devote yourself to the reading of the word,
• 52:31
  Dave Leake: yeah. You, you like, early on in my preaching career, you like, helped me with this, but you were, they were like, don't worry so much about, like, all the other parts of the sermon, like, really, like, stick in the text. And the more I've gotten older, like, I used to be, like, summarize this, give this part this understandable. Summarize, tell again, like all, and sometimes you have to do that because it's a long
• 52:53
  Jeff Leake: story. Yeah, one of the biggest failures of young preachers especially is you look for the perfect illustration.
• 53:00
  Jeff Leake: Yeah, great interest. A great interest, a funny story, yeah, but you don't grapple with what the text says, and you don't preach the Word is what Paul says. Preach the word in season and out of season. So, yeah, keep
• 53:13
  Dave Leake: going. I'm sorry.
• 53:13
  Dave Leake: Well, I know. I just think you were talking about activating the body, preaching the word having was the Holy Spirit there, you know, being welcomed.
• 53:22
  Dave Leake: I think I earlier, maybe had underestimated, and man youth ministry makes it harder too, because, yeah, those they have the attention. Man of goldfish, and I was there too. I get it.
• 53:34
  Dave Leake: I'm not criticizing, it's just the age group. But like, there is something powerful, I think about actually, not just teaching the word, but even just reading of the Scripture through complex passages, through stuff that doesn't make as much sense.
• 53:47
  Jeff Leake: Your grandpa, mom's dad, right? Melody's father, he had this project in Nicaragua where they went to the city square and they read publicly over a microphone the entire Bible, wow. They had shifts of people, and they read around the clock just to read the word over in Nicaragua. Wow, that's pretty amazing. Did that have results that they saw from that they didn't really measure it by result? Okay, do you know what I mean? The project was just that.
• 54:14
  Jeff Leake: It was just, we're gonna go down and we're gonna read the word, wow. We're gonna read the Bible and we're gonna declare it over the city. Yeah, yeah, that's beautiful, yeah. Did he have results in the ministry? Yes. I mean, his church was in the 1000s, and they planted a bunch of churches. But some things you do just because God tells you to do it, you know, measure it based on success. You measure it based on were you faithful to do what I asked you to
• 54:39
  Dave Leake: do. I think that that's what I'm talking about with purity of worship, with focus on God's presence. It's not so much the experience of God's presence. Yeah, it's is what we're doing, devoted to pleasing God specifically, and not just on winning people. I'm all about the Great Commission and soul winning. And that has to be, it's an essential part of the church. Essential. Little Central. But I just am wondering if part of the shift of what God's so you have been so faithful to serve God in your generation, and I think you've shifted with the currents of the Holy Spirit over time. I'm grappling with the church that doesn't exist, yeah, and an assignment,
• 55:16
  Jeff Leake: what you should be doing. And honestly, I'm, I'm, hope, hoping I'm honest enough to look at my own life and admit there are times I was missing something or I wish I had done something different. Because, man, this is hard. Being a church is hard, and trying to do it in a way that's faithful to God and with the right values and emphasis is not easy. So I think it is what it is now, like, what can I do? Like, I'm not done leading, but honestly I'm looking back, and I want you to be and anyone that I work with, I wouldn't want you to be following what Jesus is calling you to do. I do think Dave, I'll just add this one little insight. For a little while, church planning was like I was getting church planters showing up in my life every couple weeks, yeah, saying, Hey, man, I have this dream. Then it, then it just died, like, for a little bit, like no one was applying, and then the pandemic hit, which put a almost everybody who's showing up now, who's saying I want to plant a church, is showing up with this disturbed feeling inside, yeah, right.
• 56:16
  Jeff Leake: They're like, sure, I don't like. So the reason why people are planting right now is this, I don't like what the church has become, and I want to imagine what it could be, and I feel like I can do that better by planting a fresh expression of it, sure. And so almost everybody that I'm having conversations with are coming at it from that angle, which is really great, because that will not only plan a whole bunch of new churches, it will reinvigorate the ones that that exist, because we're all going to learn from you as you pioneer these new method methods.
• 56:52
  Dave Leake: And for the record, I have the utmost respect for people. I mean, I don't have a church yet, but for people that have churches that are pastoring people and winning souls. I think that's amazing. And i i What one thing I feel like is a value. I'm not trying to be anti anything that's happening. To
• 57:10
  Jeff Leake: pick that up. It's but you do feel like it does feel like you have a word from the Lord about this. Now, this is, yeah, this is an assignment God's given you that you have to be faithful to flesh out, yes, yeah. I feel that too. I feel challenged by it, and that will make me go back and say, in the services that I lead in design, how can I make sure that I'm considering my primary audience, who is a holy God? Yeah, in the way that we design things, it's a good, it's a good it's a good question to ask, yeah. And if you're an attender of a church, when you show up on the weekend, how can you approach this experience, not as a consumer? I hope that this is a service that ministers to my needs, and approach it more from the perspective of, how do I interact today with the Holy God, yeah, and with His Holy Word, and with my need to submit myself to him and honor him, yes. And if you come to church with that mindset, that's really the right
• 58:09
  Dave Leake: mindset. And I just feel like there's a wave of a move of God that's coming that is going to be all this stuff and not better than the church that is in the past. I think it's different, but I also think God's doing something new. Yeah, you're launching that.
• 58:24
  Jeff Leake: He is, he is doing something new. And your your age group and younger, the 20s and 30s. Man, God's doing some really, you can feel it. There's a wave coming. There's a hunger coming. So many young men, yeah, that are stepping up and saying, I'm going to follow Jesus. I'm going to do it with all my heart, mind and soul and strength. That's It's inspiring to
• 58:48
  Dave Leake: comment quickly.
• 58:48
  Dave Leake: We're about to close, but to comment on what you mentioned about the church planters coming in that are have that disturbed feeling. I don't even some of it. It is some people. It is a disturbed feeling. But I think there is this, this thing that I've noticed that's a common trend that's sort of like, I know I'm supposed to do something, and I don't exactly have a model that's doing exactly what I feel like God's asking me to do. Yeah, it's sort of that. It's like, I want to take because when I think about my church, it's probably going to be very similar to Allison Park and so many ways. I'm sure people will come down there be like, oh, like, and they might not even notice the difference, but I will notice the difference, yeah, because I because I've heard God tell me something specific.
• 59:29
  Jeff Leake: Well, I don't mean disturbed, like I'm angry. I mean like a holy disturbance, like a burden from the Lord, like I feel inside, a constraint, like the prophets of old would feel Yes, when they looked out and they said, there is something that's not right in how we function, and we now need to speak into this situation so that we can course correct and come into alignment with what God's saying and doing. That's what I mean disturbed, not like I'm really mad at the church, and I'm leaving my church mad.
• 59:57
  Jeff Leake: No, no. A holy hunger for the best way forward, yeah, and this is what a lot of truth. This is what I think you're saying.
• 1:00:06
  Jeff Leake: That's what I would describe.
• 1:00:08
  Jeff Leake: You have a holy hunger for the best way forward, which I share, but you have the freedom to, like, really explore where I have all these people to lead, yes, and, and, so once, once, once you get it going, then we'll say it was, how's it going?
• 1:00:26
  Dave Leake: Yeah, I know. And it'll be all, it'll be a bunch of stuff, and I'm figuring it out,
• 1:00:29
  Jeff Leake: and you'll be like, well, this didn't work, or that that, man, this is really great.
• 1:00:31
  Jeff Leake: I never thought this would be so, but that's part of it. You know, it's great. And you know, some of you are life group leaders, and you need to rethink how you're leading your life.
• 1:00:41
  Jeff Leake: Group. Some of you lead ministries, you need to think how you lead. So how can I make the presence of God more of a priority in the stuff that I lead? This is not just about lead pastors. This is everybody.
• 1:00:52
  Jeff Leake: How I lead my family, how to make the presence of God more of a priority in my home.
• 1:00:57
  Dave Leake: And I even think it's often in moments like this, that somebody hears the assignment of God for their life, yeah? Like, maybe you're hearing this, and you're like, I know I need to plant the church, but I don't want to talk to pastor Jeff about that, yeah, because it's gonna become too real. But you needed to do that right now. Absolutely. His email, you know, yep. Jeff all at Allison Parker, we're in that mode right now. Let's do it.
• 1:01:15
  Dave Leake: Yeah, and we still got what? At least. Well, we have five,
• 1:01:21
  Jeff Leake: five planting in 2026, and several stacked that are possibilities, potentially three more so, but yeah, that's what happened with Colin Robinson, who's planning in New York City. When he was 16 years old, God spoke to him as we as he heard me talking about church planning. Yeah, so maybe you're on the podcast and you're like, Yeah, that's me,
• 1:01:42
  Dave Leake: yeah. Well, regardless as to what God's speaking to you about, you know, we want to challenge you to step forward into all that is because God has amazing things that he's doing in this next season. So hey, as always, thank you so much for joining us. You could actually, really help us out and do us a favor by helping to broadcast this. You can share it on social media. You can like and subscribe if you're on YouTube, you can leave us a five star review on whatever platform you're listening on. It'll just take you like two minutes, but it does make a big difference to us, but
• 1:02:13
  Jeff Leake: regardless, and before we go, big shout out to producer Matt for all the movements with the set, the cameras and the new setup, absolutely and little teaser the potential of a new name. No, we
• 1:02:26
  Dave Leake: do. You'll Yeah, we'll have a new set, new name coming in for the new year in 26 we'll tell you more about that in a little bit, but for now, thanks for joining us. We'll see you guys again next time you.