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Why Divorce Costs More Than You Think (Unless You Do This…) · Work It Like A Mum

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Elizabeth Willits and I'm obsessed with helping as many women as possible achieve their boldest dreams after kids and helping you to navigate this messy and magical season of life.
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: I'm a working mum with over 17 years of recruitment experience and I'm the founder of the Investing in Women job board and community.
• 0:22
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• 0:29
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• 0:42
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• 1:07
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• 1:10
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• 1:17
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• 1:51
  Speaker 1: Now back to the show.
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to this week's Work it Like A Mum podcast.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: Today I am chatting with Karen Ant, who is the CEO and co-founder of WhatWouldAJudgeSaycom, which is a disruptive legal tech platform helping couples in England and Wales get judge-led clarity on how their finances would be divided in divorce without going to court and without sky-high legal fees.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Karen has led a remarkable global career across media, marketing and tech, with leadership roles at IBM, dentsu and Ogilvy in cities including Leeds, amsterdam, new York, tokyo, düsseldorf, berlin and Atlanta.
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: Along the way, she has raised three children, built a thriving international career and reinvented herself across cultures, languages and industries.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: Karen is now based back in Yorkshire.
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: She speaks fluent Dutch and German with a touch of Japanese, and is using her personal experience and professional firepower to make divorce smarter, faster and fairer for working women.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: Thank you for joining me.
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: Thanks for inviting me.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: No, I'm really doing we've not really touched on divorce yet on the podcast.
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: So as soon as um I got your message, I thought we've got to talk about it, because I know this is something that affects so many couples throughout you know, not just the uk, but throughout the world, um, so I'm definitely really interested in you know touching on what the reasons for divorce.
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: You know maybe some of the stats.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: I don't know if you know them off the top of your head how many couples end up in divorce and you know how can women protect themselves?
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: How many people do end up divorced?
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, in England and Wales it's about 100,000 people a year.
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: So it's huge and you know you kind of think, wow, £2 billion.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: Family law, the family law sector raised £2 billion, exceeded £2 billion last year for the first time.
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: So if you are going through a divorce, you're wondering where your fees are going.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: That's where they're going.
• 4:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's astronomical.
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: It's a huge machine and I think for us we just wanted to, we wanted to disrupt it and you know kind of help people just navigate through that horrible divorce process.
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: We had an incredible statistic that said something like you know, aviva did a study and said it costs on average, £44,000 on average for couples to get divorced and it takes on average, 69 weeks to get divorced like one and a half years of your life.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: That's crazy, you know it's like a part time, it's like you know working moms, it's like an extra part-time job to get divorced and I just thought there's got to be an easier way than this.
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: So we, yeah, we kind of stripped it right back and then rebuilt it and, yeah, we've been going since January the 1st, so it's still quite new.
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: So tell us, before we dive into all the reasons why people get divorced and etc.
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: What would a judge say dot com, what is it?
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: And you know who do you serve and how do you serve them.
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: So, as I say, our main objective was to say right, what is the worst part of a divorce, what is the part of the divorce which is the most contentious?
• 5:27
  Speaker 2: So I've been working with a law firm for the last five years quite closely and we partnered up with that law firm.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: They're an absolutely fantastic guys, award-winning family law firm solicitors, they're all pretty geeky, obviously in the area of law, and they brought me in just to kind of look at how the tech innovations are happening.
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: You know, chat, gpt, is it going to take our jobs?
• 5:51
  Speaker 2: Is it going to become a super judge?
• 5:54
  Speaker 2: Is it going to, you know, totally disrupt the legal industry?
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: And we looked at it and we looked at it and when we realized how old fashioned and opaque the family divorce, family law sector is, we thought we really do have to do something about this which just streamlines it and makes it intuitively easier for people to deal with.
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: So every judge, every lawyer I've ever spoken to has kind of said you know, the um, the most contentious part of a divorce is financial remedy, is the financial part.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: So couples asking what does the financial asset split look like?
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: How much do I get, how much does my?
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: is it not just a 50 50 split, because that's sometimes the assumption, isn't it?
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so that's often the assumption, and in fairly obsessed with is the length of the marriage.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: So if it's been a relatively long marriage of 15-20 plus years, then yes, it's normally a 50-50 split, but it's not always as straightforward as that, as you may know, if you've ever spoken to anybody that has been through a divorce.
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: It's really quite formulaic in the way that the law looks at it.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: So you could say right, these are the marital assets, let's split it down the middle.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: And if that were the case, then that would be super easy and there'd be no need for us or for anybody else to step in.
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: But the problem is that finance, children, the legal side of getting divorced, these are all mixed and intertwined together.
• 7:43
  Speaker 2: And the idea that we had about what would a judge say was when we spoke to judges, to solicitors, who all said, karen, if you can get your clients to agree on the finances early on in the divorce, early on in the separation phase, so you know what you're going to end up with, what your life is going to look like after divorce, then that just makes everything else so much easier down the line.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: The children aspect and the legal separation bit, that just makes everything else flow nicely.
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: It's the financial remedy side of it which always causes the problems, and so we said okay, we will set up a company which essentially gives you access to a judge's opinion right at the start.
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: So through our solicitors, you can have access to the judge through your financial disclosure.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: That's all the judge needs.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: The judge is not concerned with who did what in the marriage.
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: You know we have a no-fault divorce here in England and Wales.
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: They don't care about that.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: So they don't care about the reasons for divorce.
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: That would have no bearing on the financial split.
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: No bearing whatsoever.
• 9:02
  Speaker 2: No bearing whatsoever.
• 9:04
  Speaker 2: There are some cases where if somebody has racked up a lot of debt due to, um, gambling or something like that, then possibly that would that would have a bearing on the case, but in general, uh yeah, you can't say so.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: You know he cheated on me with the woman next door and therefore he's in the wrong exactly, and so, um, it's really really quite a disruptive new service and we use real judges, we use real solicitors, so you're still getting that, you know that real judicial oversight, but then you're getting it a lot quicker and for a fixed fee so how much are you typically saving, then, using your services, compared to going to a normal family solicitor, both in terms of time and money?
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: right.
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: So, as I just you know, 60, if it takes you an average 69 weeks.
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, divorce, that's one and a half years.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we say, once you've finished your, once you've completed your financial disclosure, then we pass it through to a judge.
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: You'll have that judge's opinion within six weeks.
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: There's no other firm out there that offers, within a you know, an absolute period of time, a set period of time, that certainty of within six weeks, you'll know what, how your assets will be divided, and that is very, very unusual that we're able to offer that.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: But we do that.
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: We offer it within a set time frame and we also offer it for a set fee.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: And that set fee, um, covers the, the judge's time, the solicitor's time.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: It covers everything that that is required for us to be able to make sure that you have what you need within that set time period and that it is clear and fair and you understand very clearly what your financial position is going to be at the end of it.
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: And we have people that just say, wow, I had no idea that that's what it was going to look like.
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: It really is quite a light bulb moment when they get that judge's opinion to be able to say right, you know that, that, you know shit gets real at that moment in time and then what happens?
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: today what?
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: do those people, then so, uh, once I, it's always with a qualified solicitor.
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: So whether you're a couple or whether you're an individual coming to us, they'll sit down with a solicitor, they'll go through the opinion.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: The solicitor at the end will say so.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: So within the judge's opinion there's kind of a range.
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: That's the range of what you would get and what your spouse would get, because what the judges believe is that everybody has agency.
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: Right, you can decide for yourself, you know yourself, you know your life, you know your, you know what you need to do for your family.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: And so we do believe that there's some give and take there between the couple.
• 12:18
  Speaker 2: If, at the end, when they sit down as a couple or as an individual, and they've had the judge's opinion and they say, right, well, we've got quite a lot to work through here, we need to sit down with somebody and work this through.
• 12:34
  Speaker 2: We have some wonderful mediators that can help.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: We've partnered up with them on our resources page.
• 12:42
  Speaker 2: We can say look, don't litigate your way through this.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: Sit down with a mediator, trained mediator, with no skin in the game, that can sit down with both of you.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: So right, the judge has given you the goalposts Within this.
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: How are we going to resolve this?
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: How are we going to resolve the children?
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: Where are the children going to live?
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: And a trained mediator is far, far better at doing that than a lawyer and a lawyer, shouldn't you know I?
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: I don't want to speak badly of lawyers, but they earn a lot of money that the, the, the economic operations of it, means that you know, conflict is great for them.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, conflict is great for them.
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: I've had people come to me in the last four months and say, you know, but karen, I want to take him to the cleaners.
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: And I say, but hang on a sec, you're going to take yourself to the cleaners as a result.
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: You do know that, right, your marital pot is this You're going to spend a huge chunk of your marital pot.
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: It will go to your lawyer and your spouse's lawyer, and the lawyers win in that case.
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the lawyers taking you both to the cleaners.
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: The lawyers are taking you both to the cleaners.
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: Why would you do that?
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: It might make you feel better in the long run.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: But, honestly, get some therapy.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: Get some therapy with a divorce coach.
• 14:07
  Speaker 2: We have wonderful divorce coaches.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: We have fantastic uh mediators, uh people that can support for the children issues.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: Um, you know the the we, we.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: What we like to say is that we are very we're kind of the niche side of it, we're very dry.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: We talk about the finance, right, but we also have a group of people that we can surround you with, that can help you with the emotional side of it, help you with the children.
• 14:40
  Speaker 2: So we've had wonderful mediators, coaches, financial advisors have come to us.
• 14:48
  Speaker 2: We have selected them personally, we've spoken with them, we've seen their reviews, we've seen their good people and we can surround you with a kind of you know team.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: You, if my best friend was getting a divorce, that's what I would do.
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: Do that for your finance, go there, go to Sushma for this, go to Vivian for that.
• 15:07
  Speaker 2: You know, because it's got to be curated around what you and your family need.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what is a financial disclosure?
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: So financial disclosure, if you were to go to court, it's called a Form E, and everybody that has been divorced me included, I've been divorced as well.
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: Like a Form E is like oh God, don't talk to me about the Form E, I hate it.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: It's like a 20-page document.
• 16:27
  Speaker 2: It's horrible, and we're very, very conscious of the fact that.
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: You know, within the Form E, people have to almost document their entire lives.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: They have to almost put a pound value on absolutely everything.
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: The for me is very exhaustive and the for me is for if you are going down the litigation route.
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: So what do you mean by a?
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: pound.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: What would you be including?
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: It's not just like what's in your bank account at the moment and how much maybe your house is worth.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, mortgage debts, credit card debts, school fees.
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: How much do you spend on utilities In the?
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: For Me it says how much do you spend on hairdressing?
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: Health, do you go on on hairdressing?
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: Uh, you know.
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: Uh, health, health, you know.
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: Do you go to the gym, gym?
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Uh, you know.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: Every, every aspect.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: I mean it gets very basically is your day today, isn't it?
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: because we, you know, most people, spend at least something every day, don't they?
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: it really is.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: It really is and I and I've seen the for me and it is horrible.
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: I can't imagine how you would do that.
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: But we don't ask you to fill in a for me, but our judges, our judges don't need you to be that exhaustive.
• 17:46
  Speaker 2: So we've built it.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: We've, we've created our own financial disclosure, which is what the judges require.
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: So, as part of our service, we send you what we call our financial disclosure.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: It's a watered down version of the For Me, so it's still quite.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: We still need quite a lot of information from you and your spouse, or, if you don't have your spouse involved, that you know the marital pot, you know what they earn, you know how much bonus they received last year and things like that.
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: And we talked to a wonderful financial advisor, phil.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: He's an external financial advisor, but he says give us a call, we can help you with that financial disclosure.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: We we can help you.
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: We can find out what's the value of your pension, what what's you know the situation with your mortgage.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: We can absolutely help you with that.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: We can create a budget for you for two households.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: Um, just in case the person decides one of you decides they have to move out during this, this period.
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: So there's also finance is a huge part of divorce and I would say it's quite central to your divorce, because what the judge is looking for is looking for a fair division of the assets, and fair has to be, uh, the primary and we're talking about moms today.
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: The primary focus is on the children, to make sure that the children's needs are met.
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: That trumps everything, and so, from a financial perspective, the children have to be, their needs have to be met first, and then we're looking at okay, what does each, each person receive out of, out of the marital pot with?
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: There's been quite a lot of discussion in the last few weeks.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: Uh, there's been a case in the supreme court called standish v standish, and in standish, they're talking about what's included in the marital pot.
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: Uh, you know things like inheritance, people's bonus inheritance that they've already received or maybe are yet to receive no, well, that's a very good point, because that is a question that people ask.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: You know, if your divorce is going to take 69 weeks and your parents they die during that time, they leave you quite a big inheritance.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: Is that then ring fenced and put to one side?
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: So that's not part of the marital pot?
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: The situation with Standish is that when you have a long marriage, like Standish was, you've got all sorts of external money coming in from inheritance, from bonus, from all sorts of other things that become what they call matrimonialized.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: It becomes part of the marital pot or not, and that's the big argument, right, you know, in the high net worth divorces talking about what is part of the marital pot and what is excluded from the marital but that will affect normal people.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: I guess you know.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: Whatever the decision is um, yeah, the end of that case will then triple down.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: I guess, Exactly.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: But these are really good questions to ask, because if you have just received a big inheritance, or if your parents gave you money to buy a house, maybe 10 years ago, five years ago, maybe last year or maybe even 20 years ago, what happens to that money?
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: Maybe it was family money, maybe your parents gave you that money so that you could start out on the property ladder.
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: And then your spouse says well, I want half of that, the value of that.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: You say no, no, no, our parents gave us 100K, I want that 100k yeah back and that's then the discussion and that is a reason to ask the judge.
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: so right at the start, when you fill in your financial disclosure, we ask you are there any specific questions that you have?
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: If your parents um, is, is, uh, is, unwell, is not, you know that, know?
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: Or if we have had clients during the time that somebody has died and somebody is in line for an inheritance and is that, then, do we then include that inheritance as part of that marital pot?
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: It's a big discussion and it's one that we go straight to the judge with right at the start.
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: If you've got a question about it, we will answer that question right at the start.
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: So you say it's quite formulaic.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: So you've got, obviously, the financial disclosure.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: That's the middle.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: Then the children are at the end, um, at the end, um, and is the decision about what happens to the children based upon the result of what's decided about, um with the financial?
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: disclosure, so we do not get involved in the children discussion, so we are just about the finance, and what I would say, uh, to all couples going through a divorce is to say that there's so many brilliant free tools out there to help you work out what should happen with the children, where the children should live, the the resources that that we partner up with the children, mediators, the support there.
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: They are the people that you should go to and ask how do we sort this out, how do we sort out what's best for the kids?
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: And we do not go into that in any way, shape or form.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: Children and finance is very much kept separate.
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: And it's kept separate for a reason.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: But I have to say, in all the years I've been around family lawyers and I've been around family lawyers for over 20 years now it does muddy the waters very much.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: You have that sort of the finance and you have people using the kids as leverage to get more finance.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: You know you're not seeing the kids.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: Once you get the finance sorted, all of a sudden they let you know and I hear this a lot from dads that contact us to say she's not allowing me to see the kids.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: And this is.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: This is very, very bad, bad.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: Uh, judges hate that.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Judges hate it and they see it a mile off.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: And I always say to people don't include, don't use the kids as leverage.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: No, keep it very, very much separate.
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: Sort out the finance.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: We'll sort out the finance with you, um, but the children?
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: That stays out of it.
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: You can sort out the children after you've sorted out the finance with you, but the children that stays out of it.
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: You can sort out the children after you've sorted out the finance.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: You're trying to muddy the water by concluding it all together.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: And this is what I have a problem with with your traditional law lawyers, law firms that muddy, that they write a long letter to the side the other side a couple hundred quid for those letters exactly yeah, and, and you know it, you're not, you're getting nowhere fast with it.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: And so we say don't do that, you don't have to do that.
• 26:25
  Speaker 2: The system um is is created so that you, you don't have to go through that pain, you don't have to put your kids through that pain yeah keep them separate, keep them out of it.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Um, and we will help you with that because we will.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: We will point you in the direction of experts far better than me that know very well how to advise you how to navigate that children arrangements bit of where do they live, what do they need, who gets access, when and how are we going to do this?
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: And, as I said, some wonderful tools out there to help parents communicate with each other, but not communicate with each other, if that makes sense.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: What happens before the financial disclosure, because I think you mentioned there was like three stages.
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so are you talking about the separation stage?
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess yeah.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: So if you decided you wanted to divorce your spouse or they wanted to divorce you, I'm just wondering how you get to you know your bit, the financial disclosure, what the steps that happened before then.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: That's a really, really great question because I was talking to a Relay counsellor a few weeks ago, obviously you know, in the business of divorce, and she was saying.
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: She said, karen, you know, on average people spend six years before they actually get divorced.
• 27:54
  Speaker 2: And during that six years within that six years, they'll have arguments, maybe a period of separation and then, at the end of those six years, and they might have very small children as well.
• 28:14
  Speaker 2: Actually, statistics show that if you have very small children, toddlers, you're feeling sleep deprived.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: You've gone through this tsunami of a wonderful new family.
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: But then you know, the couple dealing with all of that can be very difficult.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: And I said, wow, six years.
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: People take six years before they even decide to get divorced.
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: So by the time they get to us, they're pretty exhausted, they're ready, they're on the floor, they're on the floor.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: They're kind of like you know, I, I god, you know what have I got to do now?
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: Um, and after that, if you, if you're to believe aviva, aviva's research says, then you've got another year and a half of people seven and a half years it's kind of like my god, that's seven and a half years before you're out of this.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: You know, you, it's uh, so so when you, when you think about separation and divorce, and I, I, I always say separation is quite different to divorce, but separation means that you do need to put some financial protections in place to help you during that separation phase.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: I'm very aware that you know a lot of mums may be listening to this and sort of thinking, yeah, but you know, I don't.
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: Actually I don't know the ins and outs of what he earns or what his bonus is.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: You know, a lot of the time mums are juggling their jobs, they're juggling the families.
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: They might also do the finances for the family.
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: Often in a couple, one person does the finances and the other doesn't have a clue.
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: There's no clue.
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: What do we spend on sky a month?
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: What do we spend on bread, milk, whatever?
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: They've got absolutely no idea.
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: And so some people come to us and they say, well, you know, what can I do now to kind of protect myself financially, to make sure that, you know, my spouse doesn't go off and run a load of rack up a load of debts in my name during that separation phase.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: But the reason why I'm mentioning this is because you mentioned, you know, there's some time before financial disclosure.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: But we've had people in financial disclosure phase where they've said, my god, I had no idea that my husband was so much in debt has got so because we, you know, uh, they find out during this period, sorry, this has fallen out.
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: And so a lot of things come to light that financial infidelity that we were talking about earlier.
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: And there are some steps.
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: I was talking to our wonderful financial advisor, phil, who's got a kind of checklist as to some of the things you can do to protect yourself during that separation phase.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: You know, just kind of looking at what, what is the finance, what's coming into the household?
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: Uh, what are the household bills that need to be paid?
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: The number one mistake is from what I'm hearing people, people do during that separation phase is one one partner may leave the house and then say, right, I, I'm not paying the mortgage, I'm not paying this, I'm not paying that.
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: So they may have had joint bank accounts and then just separate them, yeah exactly, and do you think that's?
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: Sort of too early, then in the separation phase you should maybe keep the status quo.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: I think that's from the checklist that I've seen from the finance guys and again, I can't speak to this.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: The only thing I can say is, if you look at some of the things that you need to look at, it's separating your income If you are working.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: If you are working, if you are a working mum, it means making sure what are the joint household uh bills that need to be paid on a monthly or a quarterly or an annual okay, so maybe setting up a separate pot then that you both pay so it's.
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: it's really important at that moment in time to say what do we need to pay this month, this quarter?
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: So you've got a joint bank account where you're both putting money into that joint bank account that covers those bills.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: And one of the big things is understanding your credit rating at that point in time.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: So find out what your credit rating is at that moment in time, because you need to make sure that your mortgage and your debts have been and that your credit rating is healthy.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: A lot of the time, like I said, the number one mistake people make is that they decide I'm not going to pay, that I'm leaving the house, I don't need to pay the mortgage.
• 33:28
  Speaker 2: Well, the mortgage doesn't care if you have a big row with your husband or your wife, but the mortgage company doesn't care about that.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: If it's not, if your mortgage isn't being paid, then you're going to get evicted and your credit score is going to be affected.
• 33:41
  Speaker 2: Why is your credit score really important?
• 33:43
  Speaker 2: Your credit score is really important if you want to get a new mortgage in the future, which you may well want to do because you're going to live somewhere else.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: You're going to be applying for credit in the future.
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: So we say please don't cut your nose off to spite your face.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: Please do have that conversation with your, with your partner, to be able to say what are the joint expenses, what am I paying, what are you paying?
• 34:10
  Speaker 2: Let's be really clear about that right now.
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: Um, there's something called the and I'm just going to pause here for a second.
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: It's called the uh, got it.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: It's the vulnerability registration service.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: And the vulnerability registration service is something that you can flag.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: You can put your name against it and that that means that if anybody applies for any credit, any money in your name, it flags it to you.
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: And this is really important in that separation phase, because we have seen quite a number of spouses People tell us no, you would never do that, you would never do it.
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: Well, they do.
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: What's it called?
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: I'm going to make a note of this and we'll definitely in the show notes.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Vulnerability it's called the uh vulnerability uh register, vulnerability registration service all right dot couk and it means that banks or lenders have to double check with you.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: It's like having a digital security guard.
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: Essentially, I like that.
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: It's a wonderful thing, and it just means that if your spouse has left and has decided I'm going to rack up a load of debt against your name, it did happen to one of our female clients two months ago when she realized all of a sudden, oh my goodness, when she looked at her credit score, where is all this debt coming from?
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: It was the spouse that had racked up a load of debt because they had separated two years ago.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: They weren't actually living together.
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: She was starting the divorce proceedings, she was quite happily going on in her life.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: This guy's got a load of debt against her name and she said if she'd have known about the Vulnerability Registration Service at that time, she would absolutely during that separation phase and just do it quietly.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: Just, you know the Vulnerability Registration Service is not going to tell your partner.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: You know Liz is on this service and Liz has.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: It just alerts you to the fact that somebody has applied for credit against your name and I think it's it's so massively important.
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: The other.
• 36:27
  Speaker 2: The other thing that I would say is you know, do separate your income joint bank account and your spouse is saying let's separate, then I would absolutely set up your own bank account, redirect your salary through to that account and then have a joint account as you, as you may have for all your joint expenses.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Just make sure you've got a separate bank account for your own money and then you're transferring it through to the other one, again listing your assets and debts as you know them.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: Again, we just said making sure bills are paid and then making sure that that account is obviously being topped up on a monthly basis and it's just really getting involved in your own finances.
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: And uh, lady last month said I hate this, I absolutely hate it, don't want to do it.
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: And I said I'll tell you what.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: You actually feel a lot better once you've done it.
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: You, you fire up the old excel spreadsheet or you get a piece of paper and you go through it calmly and you actually do feel better at the end of it, because then that's kind of that's the situation you're in and that's what Phil, our financial guy, says Give us a call, we can help you with that.
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: There's all sorts of grants, all sorts of things that you can get.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: You know, from a tax perspective there's a single person you might be eligible for, so there's some some benefits to it as well.
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: So during that separation phase, just getting your ducks in a row, I would say, and a lot of people get back together during the separation phase and that's fine, there's no harm done.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: You haven't spoken to a lawyer.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: I must be the only person in legal services that is going to tell you don't go to a lawyer yeah, yeah go to a finance person and you know they'll, they'll help what about a prenup?
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: do they have any legal standing in the uk?
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: we, we, we are looking at at giving judicial advice on prenups as well and postnops, uh, but that's not something that we, we are involved but if somebody has a prenup, does that make it easier at this point it does.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: It does definitely make it easier uh, and more and more people uh have prenups now yeah so it's more in the high net worth um category.
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: But also what we're seeing with prenups is that second marriages.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: So you, you might be in your 40s or 50s you've already amassed quite, quite a good asset and prenups are really really good for that, that second marriage and and so.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: But if you do have a prenup and you are going through a divorce, then that is definitely something that would help the judge to frame the advice to you.
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: So if you say we're getting a divorce, we have a prenup, give us the prenup, let the judge see that, and then the judge can say yes, I can apply this prenup to this asset division say yes, I can apply this prenup to this asset division.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: Um, do they legally have to do that, the judge though, or not?
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Or is it just, I guess, an?
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: advisory document?
• 39:46
  Speaker 2: Really no, it's, it's absolutely um the the judge will absolutely take that into consideration and will use that, use the prenup as a, as a guide to the final asset division.
• 40:01
  Speaker 2: And so that's why we say, you know, do it, do include that if you are going to use our service and you have a prenup, then that is very much a vital piece of piece of the puzzle that the judge will be uh, I don't say ruling.
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: Our judgments are not, uh, binding in law.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: Why we call them a judge's opinion, not a judge's judgment?
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: Okay, because you haven't been in court and you have not had it stress tested through to barristers and lawyers and everything else the judge has simply is simply giving an opinion.
• 40:37
  Speaker 2: If you know this financial disclosure, or if your matter came in front of that judge today, what would that look like?
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: How would that judge rule?
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: and I think that's a really, really powerful insight right at the start of your divorce to say, yeah, what would it look like?
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: So if someone's not married and they're separating, what's the process?
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: Is it a completely different process?
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: well, it's not a different process.
• 41:06
  Speaker 2: We, we are doing that as well, actually, because quite a number of people contacted and said but what about us?
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: You know, we?
• 41:13
  Speaker 2: There's a big part of the country which is living together.
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: They have been living together.
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: They never got married.
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, they've got children we have a lot of tangled assets, right?
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: We, we we've got to untangle all of these assets.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: Can you help us out with that?
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: This and this is called the schedule one one in law and it's looked at in the same way.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: So a judge will looks at it and what will happen at the end of it?
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: The judge will certainly look at that.
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: The law is slightly different for Schedule 1 cases versus divorce, but the judge will be able to apply that Schedule 1 law to the asset division and so we can offer that as well.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: But, yeah, it's not as bad as it used to be.
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: It used to be.
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: Now people have far more rights than they used to have, so it's certainly a consideration.
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: Wow, I really enjoyed our discussion, karen.
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: I hope everyone that's listened to this Wow, I really enjoyed our discussion, karen.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: I hope it.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: I hope you know everyone that's listened to this has found it really helpful and I think you've really demystified.
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: You know what happens in divorce and actually how to keep it quite cordial, civil and, I suppose, protect yourself as well.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: So I hope this episode was really helpful to you.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: Know, all those people that were listening that may be contemplating divorce, um, or even just you know it's so good, isn't it?
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: I think, just to have that knowledge and awareness, where can people find you, connect with you and remind us what the website's called?
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: yeah, so what would a judge saycom uh on the uh on our website, and then we're also on on linkedin.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: We're on instagram, we're on facebook.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: What would a judge say?
• 43:24
  Speaker 2: Facebook page um, yeah, just just just drop us a line.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: Uh say hello.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: Uh, if we can help, great, uh, give us a call.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: Whatever your situation, don't feel embarrassed.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: Just just uh, drop me an email and if we can help, then we certainly will try.
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me on today.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: Thank, you, thank you so much thank you thank you for listening to another episode of the work.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: It like a mom podcast.
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: If you enjoyed this episode, please please rate, review and subscribe, and don't forget to share the link with a friend.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: If you're on LinkedIn, please send me a connection request at Elizabeth Willett and let me know your thoughts on this week's episode.
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: You can also follow my recruitment site Investing in Women on LinkedIn, facebook and Instagram.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: Until next time, keep on chasing your biggest dreams.