Latest / SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day! / Yoreh De’ah 169:15-18. Interest: Lending Between Two Jews and a Non-Jew and Collateral, and For a Community

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Yoreh De’ah 169:15-18. Interest: Lending Between Two Jews and a Non-Jew and Collateral, and For a Community · SHULCHAN ARUCH YOMI: Own the Halacha in 25 minutes a day!

• 0:02
  OK, we are doing helchus ribis, we'll call it kufsa machete.
• 0:08
  We are Ted Valve. OK, Ted Valve.
• 0:13
  Easter El. Shalova me Easter El.
• 0:17
  This is similar to how we had it before continuation from the
• 0:21
  last season. You have the middle man that is
• 0:25
  the Israel. I have a Jewish between a,
• 0:28
  between a mauva Jew and a lova goy.
• 0:32
  Again, you saw Shalova me sell Berry beet.
• 0:35
  It's sora goy al mashkanoshal goy.
• 0:39
  So the low the goy is borrowing the money.
• 0:43
  There's a middle man, the Jewish guy, and the mashkun obviously
• 0:47
  belongs to the goy and the it's being given over to the malva,
• 0:52
  to the Jewish malva. OK, we are Harzman and it comes
• 0:59
  time for his loan. That right, the loan is it's
• 1:02
  come. You have to pay back the loan
• 1:05
  and the goy doesn't have the money to pay.
• 1:10
  So what happens the Malvet wants he has his mashkun so he wants
• 1:14
  to use it. He was given the mashkun his
• 1:15
  collateral and if he doesn't pay up he gets to use it.
• 1:18
  So he wants to sell it. We have Shaliak Omar Altum
• 1:22
  career and the Shaliak says wait wait, wait, please don't sell
• 1:27
  the mashkun, Give the goi more time.
• 1:30
  Kya goi Alam. This goi is a powerful man and
• 1:34
  he might hurt me to say the least.
• 1:37
  So he's afraid for his life. EIN hamalovit sarikh lahush
• 1:41
  widvarov. So really, Mikharuddin, the
• 1:43
  Malva doesn't have to listen to this shaliya because EIN Lamalva
• 1:49
  yimagoyikum, the Malva really has nothing to do with the goit
• 1:53
  he sentimel. And he he was given the mashgun
• 1:59
  like a Kenyan as collateral. The IMA shaliya yare MI menu.
• 2:05
  Yeah, no, the shaliya, he has the relationship with this guy,
• 2:10
  and he's the one who's scared for his life.
• 2:12
  So if he wants to save himself, Yatzil atsmovievte mashkun, then
• 2:18
  the guy, then this middleman, this Jew, is allowed to buy the
• 2:22
  mashkun back from the guy, from this Jew, Sorry, from the malva,
• 2:27
  the Jewish malva. He's just doing a purchase for
• 2:30
  himself. There's nothing wrong with that.
• 2:33
  Oh, you'll see if mashkun the malvo.
• 2:35
  Or you can give him a new mashkun, whatever makes the
• 2:38
  Malva happy, Kadesha loyafsi behamtana so that he doesn't,
• 2:42
  because the Malva doesn't want to lose money.
• 2:44
  He's just waiting around and that's it's, he's just making a
• 2:48
  purchase afterwards, this middle Jew, and there's no ribis going
• 2:51
  between Jew to Jew. There's no problem then.
• 2:55
  So before this mushroom that means that the that the Sholina
• 2:58
  Jew would be then the the expected full.
• 3:02
  Amount yes, he's paying the full amount, including ribbus because
• 3:05
  he's making the Canyon he's buying them now.
• 3:07
  This mash gone is worth the Karen plus ribbus exactly, and
• 3:11
  that's not a problem whatsoever. It's just now the I'll just
• 3:16
  point out the Shah and sham. He just points out that this is
• 3:19
  true when the mash gone is given at the same time as the loan
• 3:25
  takes place, because then it's like a Kenyan of the moshkon
• 3:29
  from the goy to the Malva for the loan and that's what we're
• 3:35
  talking about. But he says if there was no
• 3:37
  moshkon originally and later on the moshkon came about, then the
• 3:44
  shock says that again, I don't know.
• 3:46
  If everyone agrees with the shock writes then the Shalia can
• 3:51
  tell the Malva you can't sell it because when he took it he was
• 3:55
  acting as a Shaliak of the Lova when he gave it to him.
• 4:01
  And it could be if it's causing the Hezek to the Shaliak then
• 4:07
  the the the Malva is actually going to be responsible because
• 4:11
  he was working for him and he had to and he has to protect
• 4:14
  him. Ayanshah Ted Zain yeeser El Amar
• 4:20
  la calvaro tolma OT halalu the halve otam laguy beribi.
• 4:26
  So now the Jew tells his friend, take this money and use it to
• 4:33
  rent to lend out to laguy baribis.
• 4:38
  So it depends because at the end of the day, then the goy is
• 4:44
  going to give it back to the middle man, Ribis, and then the
• 4:48
  middle man's going to give the the two Jews the middle man and
• 4:51
  the, the lender is the is the Jew.
• 4:53
  He's going to return the principal plus interest to the
• 4:57
  Jew. So again, we just want to make
• 4:59
  sure that we're not having a case of a Jew to a Jew with
• 5:03
  Ribis. The Ribis interest has to only
• 5:06
  be directly from the goy to the Jew and right.
• 5:11
  OK so let's just review. We basically learned this
• 5:13
  already. IM akayu tomaus Allah shaliak
• 5:16
  bellahalba assar lamal velika haribit miyada shaliak.
• 5:22
  Ribis cannot be paid if the lend, this middleman is
• 5:27
  responsible for the loan, because if he's responsible for
• 5:32
  the for this money that's being transferred as he travels and
• 5:35
  brings it from one to another. Because then again, we look at
• 5:39
  it as two separate transactions. The goy is lending, the Jew is
• 5:43
  lending to the Jew, and then the Jew is lending his own money to
• 5:48
  the goy. And therefore there can't be
• 5:50
  when it's going from the Jew to the Jew, there can't be any
• 5:52
  interest, right? We had this already.
• 5:55
  Let's keep going. Oh Miyad Shluko show one second.
• 6:00
  It's also Lama Valika Miyad. Even if you have 101 after
• 6:10
  another after another, it doesn't matter.
• 6:12
  Since every Shaliak, if he's responsible for that money as
• 6:18
  it's moving hands, as it's travelling, then we look at it
• 6:21
  as a separate loan. And there can never be ribis
• 6:25
  between Jew to Jew being ayut Allah.
• 6:28
  But if there's no responsibility among about by the Shaliak or
• 6:34
  any of the shali, they don't have any akhayas.
• 6:37
  It's all in the akhayas of the Malva and he's just working for
• 6:41
  the Malva. So then so then he can be like a
• 6:46
  regular if, if it's IM shomer kinam, shomer kinam, IM shomer
• 6:52
  Sakhar, shomer sakhar. Now he could have some
• 6:55
  responsibility like a shomer. He can't be negligent.
• 6:59
  Otherwise he has to pay for it. Of course they can make a deal.
• 7:02
  You know what he's responsible for.
• 7:04
  But at the end of the day, the main responsibility again, even
• 7:09
  onus, it depends, might be mutter, but as long as it's
• 7:13
  understood that the real responsibility belong and this
• 7:16
  money belongs to the Malva and it doesn't belong to the Shalia,
• 7:20
  then it's going to be a mother. OK, Yudzai, I'm I'm assuming
• 7:26
  most of these cases are not so common, but OK, let's go through
• 7:30
  it inside again. Yudzai Yuso shamar la cabeiro.
• 7:34
  Now the Jew tells to his friend Loveli maot me a goi beri beet.
• 7:38
  So he wants to borrow money through the from the goi with
• 7:42
  Rebus, right, IE natanol mashkon lovotalov, IE makarayuta goyalo
• 7:49
  mashkon bilvad villala shaliya claw muta.
• 7:53
  I don't know mutola shaliya lika.
• 7:57
  I repeat villitano lo goy. Oh, this was clear earlier.
• 8:05
  Yeah, I'm just going to step back for one SEC.
• 8:07
  I'm just going to point out the I saw Nahakas Binyamin.
• 8:11
  This is a bashem, I think to basiosef in the Shah and it's
• 8:15
  pretty much in the Shah nun bet that this Shaliak middle person,
• 8:21
  similar to the cases we had until now.
• 8:24
  He just points out he's allowed to be an arev Stam.
• 8:28
  He's allowed to be a guarantor that first the Malvik has to go
• 8:34
  after the goy, but he can't go first to the Shaliak and Arif
• 8:39
  Kablan. That's when you can go to either
• 8:42
  1. The Malvik can decide who he
• 8:44
  goes to 1st to collect the money.
• 8:46
  That's not OK, because then that's like getting interest and
• 8:51
  it's directly from the logo. Again, Mahlokis, Darice,
• 8:56
  Darabanan, whatever, we're not going to get into that.
• 9:01
  But anyways, just to know an array of if in Shaliach a middle
• 9:05
  man is allowed to be a guarantor, but he's just an
• 9:08
  array for a kosher loan, that's not a problem.
• 9:11
  It's once he becomes an array of Kabul and that's when it becomes
• 9:14
  an issue. OK, let's see if I got this case
• 9:17
  clear. Sorry.
• 9:20
  So he wants to borrow money Mashgun.
• 9:25
  And then there's a Mashgun and the riot of the of the Goys on
• 9:33
  the Mashgun, the lower Lasheliac Clou.
• 9:37
  So then the Mashgun belongs 100% to the goy, right?
• 9:44
  Well, it's travelling, it's right.
• 9:47
  OK, well, it's travelling, it's in the right, The Borrower.
• 9:56
  So then later on he's allowed to take the Ribbis from the Jew
• 10:04
  and. Give it to.
• 10:10
  The guy OK, but the original loan was only between the guy is
• 10:18
  the Malvo over here? Is that what we're saying?
• 10:21
  I got it. But if there's no mash gun over
• 10:24
  here, so then he's just taking the money and giving he's giving
• 10:27
  it to him in Cain, however, wait Amarillo Lavelli Maud Berry beat
• 10:34
  me Hagui al shmi vehemino hagui. If the Jew goes to the guy and
• 10:41
  he says there is a situation where even.
• 10:47
  If there's no much. More right when the when he has
• 10:52
  to be maforesh, when the. Guy believes that it's only
• 10:56
  between Jew one and it's. Not from the shilia, not with
• 11:00
  the shilia, right? As long as the really, as long
• 11:02
  as the, the, the, the real Jewish lender and the goyish
• 11:06
  Malvin in this case know that the deal is between these two
• 11:10
  people. And they know that the shilia
• 11:13
  is, is not part of the is, is not the one who's borrowing the
• 11:17
  money and he's not responsible for it either.
• 11:20
  So then it's going to be OK. Right.
• 11:32
  So nowadays, right nowadays the, the transactions it's written or
• 11:37
  sometimes verbal, but it's always with you've got phones
• 11:40
  and emails, it's always clear who's who.
• 11:43
  It's the problem is if you don't know, because the MASH gun made
• 11:48
  it clear who's responsible and who it's coming from.
• 11:52
  But you don't need a mash gun if everyone knows what's happening.
• 11:57
  And the Akhrayas again, is the same principle as before, that
• 11:59
  the shiliak just doesn't have the Akhrayas and the going knows
• 12:06
  that he's relying and has to go claim the money from the Jewish
• 12:09
  borrower and not from the shiliak.
• 12:13
  And OK. And that's why it's important to
• 12:16
  if there's no mash going to say who it is.
• 12:18
  I mean, nowadays you talk directly the malva to the Lova,
• 12:21
  but it's important that you specify who it is.
• 12:23
  So it's clear. Otherwise it feels like really
• 12:26
  he has no one to even to go to. So he'll be going to the shiliak
• 12:31
  to collect. OK, The I in the command Simon
• 12:34
  Kovain I mutter the shiliak liyot arev OK, which we just
• 12:40
  touched upon also Yesh omring munhige akahal mutare mubot
• 12:47
  migoyberry beat litsar akahal. OK, so now let's say the Jewish
• 12:55
  community needs to borrow money and they appoint right?
• 13:00
  They have their their their leaders and they go to the goyim
• 13:04
  and they need to borrow with Rebus.
• 13:07
  They have no choice and but the goy only has a relationship with
• 13:14
  the leaders and the goi is going to demand the money from the
• 13:18
  leaders, not the kahal, not from the the the sibor.
• 13:23
  So normally this obviously sounds like a problem so let's
• 13:27
  keep reading. So if it's let'sora kahal, alpha
• 13:31
  piga alpha gahavi kishlukhya kahal, now they are like a
• 13:35
  Shalia for the kahal, the alpha govda.
• 13:39
  But the problem is alpha govda khayyut alayhim akhosin wohumi
• 13:43
  nakal Shari. Now the problem is the goyim,
• 13:48
  they're only going to go. They're not going to go walk
• 13:50
  around to the people collecting on the street.
• 13:53
  They're going to these, whatever these, let's say, we'll call it
• 13:56
  one or three leaders who took all the responsibility on them.
• 14:00
  So that's why it's a problem. However, we're going to see it,
• 14:06
  it became motor on some level when it's Itzara for the tzibor
• 14:13
  with Itzara Gado. And so we compare it.
• 14:19
  So the so the the goi goes to the leaders and the leaders have
• 14:23
  to now go collect individually from the kahal.
• 14:26
  But you see that the but there's a OK, it's even though Shari the
• 14:31
  Javi capitropus shell utomim, the Shari Bekaya Govna.
• 14:35
  So by an apitropos we learnt it's mutter by bait Knesset,
• 14:42
  when the bait Knesset is the one who is making the profit.
• 14:48
  That's clear here. It's the opposite, the it's the
• 14:53
  opposite direction. So it's a it's a bigger problem.
• 14:56
  We learnt Ribis Dera Banan and that was only by Ribis Dera
• 15:01
  Banan and we learned by Ribis Dera Banan but it's our mitzvah.
• 15:05
  Most are Makil but they are some were mahmer.
• 15:09
  Here it sounds like we're talking even with Ribisque
• 15:12
  suitsa de araisa so that's why it's even OK.
• 15:17
  But anyways, Mahenna Gulahakil and the minnag became to be
• 15:22
  makil alpha Gov the ankan hetter borrower Rahman himself is like
• 15:28
  struggling. It's not exactly clear why it's
• 15:30
  mutter, but it's kind of mutter. He came the minnock to be Mako.
• 15:34
  And if you see the sthataz, he writes the reason why it's
• 15:39
  smutter is because we're not considering this case like Ribis
• 15:44
  Kitsuza. Because at the end of the day,
• 15:47
  it's really the goy to the seaboard, the middleman.
• 15:53
  These leaders, they are taking Akhayas, but he's saying he's
• 15:59
  holding that this case when you're taking Akhayas as a
• 16:02
  middleman, it's only a problem on a level of Darabanam.
• 16:06
  So even though it normally would be considered Riviskusa because
• 16:09
  it's through a Shalia, I don't know if if everyone agrees, but
• 16:13
  he's looking at because otherwise he doesn't understand
• 16:16
  how it could be muted. OK, yes, OK, fine.
• 16:25
  I'm just going to read this and we'll basically explain what the
• 16:37
  Rama is referring to or it could be referring to.
• 16:51
  So it's a little bit unclear to me exactly what is referring to.
• 16:55
  But the point is people to to, yeah, yeah.
• 16:58
  And then? The rest of the people will will
• 17:03
  pay back all. The time that means that in the
• 17:05
  meantime, the community within themselves, even though it's,
• 17:10
  there's, there's this greater loan from Mcgoy, which we
• 17:12
  allowed as a side, you know, while we're collecting money or
• 17:18
  paying people back, you can't be taking money from one Jew to
• 17:21
  another Jew when with Ribis you can borrow for free from one Jew
• 17:26
  to another, but there can't be, you know, for the extra length
• 17:29
  of time between Jew to Jew. But among the kahal, you can't
• 17:33
  be taken from some and taken to others and they're being, and
• 17:36
  then the Ribis is being paid between the Jews.
• 17:40
  So I'm sure there's numerous scenarios we can come up with,
• 17:44
  but that's the the principle. OK, let's go to your head.
• 17:50
  Mashkun oshil goy BIA di saal vivir Lisa al havero shiyava
• 17:55
  alao. OK shiyavo agoyi Toto Shi kahu
• 18:00
  haribich al Allah at oto hayom one second.
• 18:08
  This was clear before. The goy is the Lova and he has
• 18:12
  the mashgun and the Malva is the Jew, right?
• 18:17
  So what happens the the Jew takes the mash gun and now is
• 18:27
  going to. So there's a loan between a Jew
• 18:29
  and a goy and the so the Malaga lends it.
• 18:33
  He gets a mash gun from a goy. So he has this mash gun, right?
• 18:37
  He has this one loan between the Jew and the non Jew.
• 18:39
  We'll put that aside. He has a mash gun.
• 18:42
  Now he wants to go get a loan from another Jew and he's going
• 18:46
  to give the moshkon to the other to another Jew.
• 18:51
  So what happens? So you're allowed to get, So
• 18:56
  who's allowed to benefit from the repeat from this interest
• 19:00
  from the goy? It's fine.
• 19:02
  Whoever is holding on to the Moshkon is allowed to get the
• 19:05
  Ribis because basically what he did was the second loan
• 19:09
  basically transferred the the loan from the goy to Jew one to
• 19:16
  Jew 2. That's OK because the ribbus
• 19:20
  that's being paid by the goy is always tied to the mashkorn and
• 19:27
  it's always direct to whoever is holding on to the mashkorn.
• 19:30
  So that's OK because there's no ribbus from Jew to Jew, OK.
• 19:41
  The second Jew is basically now taking over the loan from the
• 19:46
  goy because he's holding on to the moshkon and he But it has to
• 19:51
  be that the ribis goes to the one who's holding on to the
• 19:55
  moshkon, because otherwise if it doesn't follow that exact date,
• 19:59
  then there will be a connection of ribis between Judaju.
• 20:03
  OK, Ubilvad Shyomarlow. Now when he gives it over, he
• 20:08
  has to specify. Then this is according to the
• 20:12
  we'll see the Rama in a second. You have to specify, he says,
• 20:21
  listen, after this we're done, you can't come to me anymore.
• 20:25
  Here's the really you're when you're lending me the money,
• 20:29
  you're lending it to the guy. I have nothing to do with you.
• 20:36
  You have nothing to do with me. It's over.
• 20:38
  Here's the mashcon and you're going to get your ribbus from
• 20:41
  the goy. You agree?
• 20:42
  Great. Not then.
• 20:47
  Forget about it now. Afterwards, the one who took it,
• 20:56
  he can go back to the first one if if he he can and he can get
• 21:01
  Karen and repeat. If he sells the mash gun, that's
• 21:04
  OK also because selling a mash gun is OK and the mash gun can
• 21:08
  go up and up and down in value over time.
• 21:12
  That's because Karen and repeat became because it became the
• 21:17
  repeat happened over time and now the mash gun is worth more
• 21:20
  and so you can sell it. It's fine.
• 21:22
  There's no repeat. The problem with repeat is if
• 21:25
  you're holding on to the cash and you're letting it accumulate
• 21:29
  over time and then you're paying afterwards.
• 21:31
  More a beat here. You're just selling the
• 21:33
  mushkaum, so it's not a problem. So then the second one.
• 21:36
  Is actually going to say that was by me for a month?
• 21:40
  So he so he gets more than what he paid for here.
• 21:45
  Take the take the mushroom back. Right, right.
• 21:48
  Exactly and. That's.
• 21:50
  OK, right. Well, the Karen plus the dollar.
• 21:52
  Yeah, exactly. OK.
• 21:56
  In other words, right, The second one is selling giving
• 21:58
  back to Mashkun and he profited by this month or whatever the
• 22:02
  year, whatever the loan was for. OK, haga viesh omrim.
• 22:07
  Now this is not an agreement with Vishal Khanarak he holds.
• 22:15
  He just says you don't have to verbally say it, we should to
• 22:22
  avoid maclocas and questions. But he says really, you don't
• 22:26
  have to. He just gave it to him, Stam
• 22:28
  Shari devadi mekhavin that Terra.
• 22:31
  Because of course he wants to do it a Hector way.
• 22:34
  And we know the only Hector way to do it is when it's all in the
• 22:38
  mash cone. And now there's no risk.
• 22:40
  You can't go back to the middle man anymore, or the first, the
• 22:42
  first, the first Malvern. But come on, the armor laid.
• 22:47
  I mean, it's as if he told him that everything's in this mash
• 22:50
  cone and now we have nothing between the two of us.
• 22:55
  Let's keep going. I just wanted to point out what
• 23:03
  was it The the shark just points out the only the only time you
• 23:11
  have to say even according to the Shalkhonora he says when do
• 23:15
  you have to say if the ferush is when the Jew is still holding on
• 23:19
  to the mashiko? But if when the second the two
• 23:22
  Jews are making this new transaction and he gives them
• 23:25
  the moshkon at the same time, then he agreed.
• 23:28
  Then he says even according to the sholkhanar he would agree
• 23:30
  that says if he said it with ferush.
• 23:32
  OK so anyways the IM baharishon liefdot hamashkon.
• 23:37
  Now what if he wants to IM Baharishon liefdotahrat he wants
• 23:43
  to get the moshkon back. Veyana Shaney wrote Salaf 0
• 23:46
  Hamashgun, but he doesn't want to give the mashkun back.
• 23:49
  He's happy holding on to it and making interest.
• 23:51
  Harishuddhiado, it's in his, that's his choice.
• 23:54
  The Javi lo gomery Kishilo, the havi kilo mahalo, because that
• 23:59
  was the agreement. It's 100% his.
• 24:02
  And the second guy does not have to give it to him.
• 24:06
  He does not have to force it out of him and he and that was the
• 24:11
  transaction. OK fine, let's just read a
• 24:16
  little more of him. Hitsuno mithila shitsaric locks
• 24:20
  are believed in a loke shabali Toto a coal to fit in the ACT.
• 24:29
  So this part of the Rama, I'm just going to say everyone
• 24:36
  doesn't understand what how the Rama makes sense.
• 24:39
  The Rama says, seems to say that you can make an agreement
• 24:43
  between the SEC, the right, the 2nd and the 3rd, the two Jews.
• 24:48
  One is one, the first malva who becomes and then the next one
• 24:51
  becomes the next malva. In our case that if you want to
• 24:56
  get the mashkun back at any time, let me know and then we'll
• 24:59
  just pay you back. And his point is, but then
• 25:01
  that's not a proper mecha. It's not a proper sale.
• 25:05
  And in order for it to have this Jew give it to a Jew, and the
• 25:09
  second Jew to get interest, there has to be a complete
• 25:13
  severance between these two Jews.
• 25:15
  And if he can come back and take the mosque on it back at any
• 25:19
  time, then it's as if he's really taking the loan from the
• 25:24
  Jew. There, you selling it fine.
• 25:50
  Should we do a bit more or you want to stop?
• 25:52
  Stop. OK, fine.