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The Takeover: Zahid Gamieldien on story structure, flawed characters, and planning a novel · The Book Deal

• 0:09
  Natasha Rai: This is the Book Deal Podcast, monthly takeover by your host, Natasha Rai.
• 0:14
  Natasha Rai: I'll be bringing you even more debut and season authors as they talk about their path to publication.
• 0:26
  Madeleine Cleary: The Book Deal Podcast acknowledges the traditional owners of the land and waters, which it's recorded on.
• 0:31
  Madeleine Cleary: And pays respect to their elders past, present, and emerging.
• 0:39
  Natasha Rai: Zahid Gamieldien is an author, screenwriter, editor and writing tutor.
• 0:44
  Natasha Rai: His debut novel, all The Missing Children, was published by Ultimo Press in 2024.
• 0:49
  Natasha Rai: He's had short fiction published in literary journals, including Overland, Meanjin, Kill Your Darlings, Island Magazine, and many others.
• 0:56
  Natasha Rai: His work was listed for the Richell Prize and selected for inclusion in the best of 40th anniversary edition of the UTS Writers Anthology.
• 1:06
  Natasha Rai: His unproduced screenwriting has been listed for awards in Australia and overseas, and as an editor and writing tutor, he's helped several authors get their work into print.
• 1:17
  Natasha Rai: He's received funding to undertake a residency at Varuna House and two major arts grants from Create New South Wales.
• 1:26
  Natasha Rai: He has a short, new, short story coming out in Overland, and his second novel will probably be released in late 2026.
• 1:38
  Natasha Rai: Hello, Zahid Gamieldien.
• 1:40
  Natasha Rai: Welcome to the Book Deal podcast.
• 1:42
  Zahid Gamieldien: Lovely to be here.
• 1:43
  Natasha Rai: Excellent.
• 1:44
  Natasha Rai: How are you today?
• 1:45
  Zahid Gamieldien: I'm pretty well I think.
• 1:47
  Zahid Gamieldien: How are you?
• 1:47
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, I'm fine, thanks.
• 1:49
  Natasha Rai: Um, so I would like to talk to you a little bit today about your novel, all The Missing Children, and maybe some writing practice, and then, um, go a little bit into your publishing journey.
• 2:02
  Natasha Rai: Is that okay?
• 2:02
  Zahid Gamieldien: Alright.
• 2:02
  Zahid Gamieldien: Sounds like a plan.
• 2:03
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 2:04
  Natasha Rai: So how about we start with your elevator pitch for all the missing children.
• 2:07
  Zahid Gamieldien: Okay, so All The Missing Children is a literary mystery drama with creeping supernatural elements.
• 2:13
  Zahid Gamieldien: It's about the effect that the enigmatic presence and mysterious disappearance of two children has on various characters from their working class mother to a suspended detective who's obsessed with a cold case.
• 2:24
  Zahid Gamieldien: And while these characters' stories unfold, as we get further and further from the children's lived experience, the novel provides clues that help the reader answer the question, what happened to the children?
• 2:36
  Natasha Rai: Awesome.
• 2:37
  Natasha Rai: That was a great pitch.
• 2:38
  Zahid Gamieldien: Thank you.
• 2:38
  Zahid Gamieldien: I've practiced it.
• 2:41
  Natasha Rai: Uh, so I've read it so I know how phenomenally good it is.
• 2:45
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, thank you.
• 2:46
  Natasha Rai: How did you start, like what was your starting point for this novel in terms of those viewpoints and that kind of common thread that you just mentioned?
• 2:56
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um.
• 2:57
  Zahid Gamieldien: Well, I guess I've taught novel and script writing for about 10 years, and so I'm very familiar with traditional story structure and a lot of traditional story structure.
• 3:06
  Zahid Gamieldien: Whether you talk about it in terms of three act structure or four act structure or uh, seven sequence structure.
• 3:13
  Zahid Gamieldien: It's all kind of the same.
• 3:14
  Zahid Gamieldien: It's about establishing a character with a fundamental flaw and then designing events that.
• 3:20
  Zahid Gamieldien: Test that flaw until the character changes and overcomes it at the same time.
• 3:25
  Zahid Gamieldien: Your novel generally sets up a story question and goes about kind of inexorably answering that question.
• 3:32
  Zahid Gamieldien: So the idea I had for this novel was to design something that outwardly moves away from closure, moves away from from synthesis.
• 3:41
  Zahid Gamieldien: While in the background, the reader's given everything they need to carry it towards resolution themselves.
• 3:47
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um.
• 3:48
  Zahid Gamieldien: So what I wanted to do was with each part of the story.
• 3:53
  Zahid Gamieldien: Give that a traditional story structure.
• 3:55
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and so that character has a complete journey.
• 3:58
  Zahid Gamieldien: And as you say, there are these subtle connections between the different parts and all of these clues are being given about the main mystery.
• 4:05
  Zahid Gamieldien: Now, unfortunately, I found that you cannot approach a story like that through pure intuition.
• 4:11
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, you need to actually go through and.
• 4:15
  Zahid Gamieldien: Plan how it happens.
• 4:17
  Zahid Gamieldien: Uh, and that's generally the way I work anyway.
• 4:19
  Zahid Gamieldien: I tend to have a plan for what the whole novel is gonna look like, um, what the major story beats are, what the clues are gonna be.
• 4:29
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, but at the same time, I try and I.
• 4:31
  Zahid Gamieldien: Leave myself enough room to be able to get down to the page and make discoveries and play and follow my intuition.
• 4:40
  Zahid Gamieldien: So the way I approached it was to plan it enough so that I knew what had to happen, but still leave myself room for creativity.
• 4:50
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 4:51
  Natasha Rai: That sounds great.
• 4:52
  Natasha Rai: So I do have some questions for you around your teaching.
• 4:56
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 4:56
  Natasha Rai: Um, but as you've mentioned it already, we might as well get to it now.
• 4:59
  Natasha Rai: So.
• 5:00
  Natasha Rai: Um, for people who are listening who might not be familiar, can you tell us a little bit about what a three act structure is?
• 5:09
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, a three act structure.
• 5:11
  Zahid Gamieldien: Uh, you know, broadly speaking, the, the three acts would be set up, complication and payoff.
• 5:18
  Zahid Gamieldien: So at the start of a story, you'd establish a character, and the character has some sort of flaw or a way in which they are orphaned from the world at large.
• 5:27
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, there'll be an inciting incident that comes in and prompts them to go on a journey.
• 5:32
  Zahid Gamieldien: And then you have this kind of.
• 5:34
  Zahid Gamieldien: Dialectical relationship that's set up between the, the events and the character.
• 5:39
  Zahid Gamieldien: Whether a character tries to persist with, um, going on, living in accordance with their flaw, but the world is telling them that they need to live in a different way.
• 5:48
  Zahid Gamieldien: And you put pressure on that all through act two.
• 5:50
  Zahid Gamieldien: Act three generally is the climax and resolution where they have to, in some high stakes situation, overcome their flaw and act in accordance with the way the world has been arguing that they should act for the entirety of act two.
• 6:03
  Zahid Gamieldien: Does that make sense?
• 6:04
  Natasha Rai: Yes, it does.
• 6:05
  Natasha Rai: Um, and what would be a seven ACT structure?
• 6:08
  Natasha Rai: You said seven, act too, right?
• 6:09
  Zahid Gamieldien: Oh, I mean that, that, now that gets more complicated, but basically you'd be breaking a three act structure up into further pieces.
• 6:16
  Zahid Gamieldien: So you'd have, the opening would be the prison or orphan section.
• 6:20
  Zahid Gamieldien: Then you'd have the inciting incident, you'd have a moment of high tension that makes the character aware of, um.
• 6:26
  Zahid Gamieldien: What the stakes are.
• 6:27
  Zahid Gamieldien: If they continue to act in accordance with their flaw, you'd have a midpoint where something happens that is basically like a, a climax in the middle of the story, and your story kind of has that sort of structure to it, and that is what forces the character to begin to change.
• 6:44
  Zahid Gamieldien: After that, you have a, a sort of, uh, surrender or all is lost points.
• 6:49
  Zahid Gamieldien: Then you get into the climax and resolution.
• 6:52
  Natasha Rai: So that, uh, kind of draws out the three act into a bit more detail.
• 6:56
  Zahid Gamieldien: Into more detail.
• 6:57
  Natasha Rai: So in all the missing children, your inciting incident is the children going missing?
• 7:02
  Zahid Gamieldien: That's right.
• 7:02
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 7:03
  Zahid Gamieldien: That's the inciting incident for the entire thing.
• 7:05
  Zahid Gamieldien: And that the inciting incident generally sets up the, the main question that the reader is gonna be thinking about the whole way, which is, you know, what happened to these kids?
• 7:14
  Natasha Rai: And was that your starting point?
• 7:15
  Natasha Rai: Was that your question that you started with?
• 7:17
  Natasha Rai: Like what happened to these kids?
• 7:19
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 7:19
  Zahid Gamieldien: That, that was part of the, the question that I was starting with.
• 7:22
  Zahid Gamieldien: But I was much more interested in the effect that their disappearance had on the other characters.
• 7:28
  Zahid Gamieldien: So I was more interested in the emotional and psychological journeys of these other characters rather than the mystery of what happened to the children.
• 7:36
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm.
• 7:36
  Zahid Gamieldien: But at the same time, I did wanna provide sort of closure to that question for people who are interested in an at a plot level.
• 7:44
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 7:44
  Natasha Rai: I really wanna say something about that, but I don't wanna give anything away.
• 7:47
  Natasha Rai: No, I don't wanna give anything away.
• 7:48
  Natasha Rai: 'cause I feel like if I say what I was thinking about, it will give away a bit of the ending, so I'm not gonna do that.
• 7:54
  Zahid Gamieldien: Sure.
• 7:55
  Natasha Rai: Um, and so you also mentioned, and I like to get specific because uh, we have quite a mix of listeners and.
• 8:03
  Natasha Rai: Sometimes we not forget, but we're not, yeah.
• 8:08
  Natasha Rai: It's good to pitch it in a way that people understand what we mean.
• 8:10
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 8:11
  Natasha Rai: So you also mentioned story beats.
• 8:14
  Natasha Rai: Can you
• 8:15
  Zahid Gamieldien: Story beats?
• 8:15
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 8:16
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 8:16
  Natasha Rai: Can you say a little bit about what that is?
• 8:18
  Zahid Gamieldien: Uh oh.
• 8:19
  Zahid Gamieldien: I mean, story beats can be large or small.
• 8:21
  Zahid Gamieldien: I guess when I'm talking about story beats, I'm mainly referring to the major plot points within the knob.
• 8:28
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 8:28
  Natasha Rai: And these major plot points help drive the action forward.
• 8:31
  Zahid Gamieldien: Uh, they help drive the action forward, but they work in conjunction with the character's journey.
• 8:36
  Zahid Gamieldien: So action and character shouldn't really be thought of as two separate things.
• 8:40
  Zahid Gamieldien: They have to be intertwined if you want to create a satisfying story structure.
• 8:44
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 8:45
  Natasha Rai: And that is a top tip already.
• 8:50
  Natasha Rai: Uh, okay.
• 8:51
  Natasha Rai: So coming back to your novel, then, you had this question about the impact of these missing children on these characters.
• 9:00
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 9:00
  Natasha Rai: And you've got three, no, hang on.
• 9:04
  Natasha Rai: 1, 2, 4 different characters.
• 9:06
  Natasha Rai: And so was, how did each come to you?
• 9:11
  Natasha Rai: Like, was it over time, did you kind of have very strong ideas about who and when?
• 9:18
  Zahid Gamieldien: Well, the first part of this novel that I actually wrote was part four.
• 9:23
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and so I had that kind of set down and I knew the most about that part.
• 9:28
  Zahid Gamieldien: And
• 9:28
  Natasha Rai: which is, uh, just to clarify, that's a character of Nera,
• 9:32
  Zahid Gamieldien: that's the character of Nera.
• 9:33
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 9:33
  Zahid Gamieldien: So she's a, uh, city lawyer who's retired to spend her time on a, on a country farm.
• 9:39
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, but I did think about the characters.
• 9:43
  Zahid Gamieldien: In relation to each other.
• 9:45
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 9:45
  Zahid Gamieldien: And that's kind of how it came about.
• 9:47
  Zahid Gamieldien: So Eileen is in some ways a mirror image of Nera, Eileen being, uh, the character in part one who's the mother of the these children.
• 9:55
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and so because they're a mirror, there's a sort of, uh, natural story that arises from that.
• 10:03
  Zahid Gamieldien: But what I also wanted to do was draw characters that are broadly representative of.
• 10:08
  Zahid Gamieldien: A community.
• 10:09
  Zahid Gamieldien: So the characters are drawn from different socioeconomic backgrounds.
• 10:13
  Zahid Gamieldien: Uh, you know, they're from different classes, they have different ethnicities.
• 10:18
  Zahid Gamieldien: And so what you get is a kind of portrait of how far reaching, um, disappearance of these children, uh, is in relation to the public consciousness.
• 10:30
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 10:31
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 10:32
  Natasha Rai: And that really comes through.
• 10:35
  Natasha Rai: How long did it take you to write a draft?
• 10:37
  Zahid Gamieldien: To write a draft?
• 10:39
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, I don't know.
• 10:40
  Zahid Gamieldien: It depends how you count really.
• 10:43
  Zahid Gamieldien: So, okay.
• 10:44
  Zahid Gamieldien: So, um, I began writing this, uh, early on, so this probably has some overlap with, uh, my publication journey in relation to this specific novel.
• 10:55
  Zahid Gamieldien: So, um, I think it was the, you know.
• 11:00
  Zahid Gamieldien: Like pre pandemic, I, I had this idea that I could get a collection of short stories published,'cause I had a number of short stories in print and I thought it might be a good way to break into the publishing industry if I could get these short stories published.
• 11:15
  Zahid Gamieldien: And mm-hmm.
• 11:15
  Zahid Gamieldien: On the basis of that, I got a meeting with a publisher and the publisher said, I really like your short stories, but generally in Australia what happens is you write a novel first, and once the novel comes out, then.
• 11:27
  Zahid Gamieldien: You are kind of allowed to publish this short story collection.
• 11:30
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I thought, okay, that's, that's interesting.
• 11:32
  Zahid Gamieldien: So I pivoted towards writing this novel.
• 11:35
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, I.
• 11:36
  Zahid Gamieldien: And again, this reflects my lack of understanding of the publishing industry.
• 11:40
  Zahid Gamieldien: But I thought if I have a standalone novella as a proof of concept for the novel, I could take that to a publisher and say, can you please give me some money to finish the rest of this novel, um, dream.
• 11:52
  Zahid Gamieldien: And so, yeah.
• 11:53
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I thought, oh, that, that'd be amazing, wouldn't it?
• 11:55
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 11:56
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 11:56
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and so I'm, I, I.
• 11:59
  Zahid Gamieldien: Took that to an agent, um, who had liked some of my work before.
• 12:04
  Zahid Gamieldien: And he said, look, I love this.
• 12:05
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, where's the rest of this novel?
• 12:08
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I said, uh, I, I, I haven't written it.
• 12:10
  Zahid Gamieldien: Do I have to?
• 12:11
  Zahid Gamieldien: And he said, well, yes, if you want to take it to a publisher, it's usually best to have an entire novel.
• 12:17
  Zahid Gamieldien: And so I, I was working on it, um, in a kind of piecemeal fashion while working on other things.
• 12:23
  Zahid Gamieldien: And, you know, I had young children, the pandemic happened.
• 12:26
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, so I was kind of working on it in the background over a period of, you know, maybe three years or something like that.
• 12:34
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um.
• 12:35
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I was also doing screenwriting.
• 12:36
  Zahid Gamieldien: And through my screenwriting I met a producer and she said, do you have any work that I could read?
• 12:43
  Zahid Gamieldien: 'cause we're we're interested in it.
• 12:44
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I said, well, I have half a novel sitting around.
• 12:47
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and she said, oh, I'd love to read that.
• 12:49
  Zahid Gamieldien: And so.
• 12:49
  Zahid Gamieldien: So I gave that to her and she followed up and said, oh, I love this half a novel that you've got.
• 12:54
  Zahid Gamieldien: Can I read the other half?
• 12:56
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I said, well, do I have to write the other half?
• 13:00
  Zahid Gamieldien: And she said, well, yeah, yeah, you have to.
• 13:02
  Zahid Gamieldien: So I went about, and she said, how long would that take?
• 13:05
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I optimistically said, oh, probably just a couple of months for me to finish that.
• 13:10
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um.
• 13:11
  Zahid Gamieldien: Six months later, I had the novel complete and I took it back to the agent who'd shown an interest and I was very, um, lucky that they were still interested and wanted to sign up the work.
• 13:22
  Zahid Gamieldien: And they helped me with the deal with the producer for the TV show, and also helped me find a publisher.
• 13:29
  Natasha Rai: So it sounds like your novel got interest from a TV connection before the publisher.
• 13:38
  Natasha Rai: You published Ultimo Press?
• 13:40
  Natasha Rai: Yes.
• 13:40
  Natasha Rai: You eventually went on to publish the novel.
• 13:42
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 13:43
  Natasha Rai: That's, uh, pretty unusual.
• 13:45
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah, that is, that is pretty unusual.
• 13:48
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, so I wasn't even sure that I wanted the agent to take it on at that time.
• 13:55
  Zahid Gamieldien: I wanted the producer to be interested in that time because I felt that it would just put time pressure on me.
• 13:59
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 13:59
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 14:00
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, but in the end, I think that was helpful because I'm not.
• 14:05
  Zahid Gamieldien: Uh, convinced that I would necessarily have finished the novel if I hadn't had the time pressure on me.
• 14:10
  Natasha Rai: Ah, we're gonna come back to time a bit later.
• 14:15
  Natasha Rai: Um, but seeing as we, uh, have gotten onto the subject of publication journey, so, um, you sent me a message yesterday about what prompted you or inspired your first, I dunno, foray into writing.
• 14:30
  Zahid Gamieldien: I did, yeah.
• 14:31
  Zahid Gamieldien: I was, um, thinking about the publication journey and I was thinking back to my first attempt to write a novel, which happened when I was eight years old and I had read, um, Judy Bloom's Super Fudge and Tales of a Fourth Grade Nothing.
• 14:44
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I thought, excellent.
• 14:45
  Zahid Gamieldien: You know, I, I'd love excellent to be able to do that.
• 14:49
  Zahid Gamieldien: And so I started writing a novel and really all I remember from that novel is that it had a lot of poo and vomit jokes that was, well, of
• 14:57
  Natasha Rai: course.
• 14:58
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 14:58
  Natasha Rai: I mean that's, that sounds like a cornerstone of any great novel
• 15:02
  Zahid Gamieldien: Absolutely.
• 15:03
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 15:04
  Zahid Gamieldien: So, so that was my first foray, and I, I did make two other attempts to write a novel before this one, but this was my first actually
• 15:11
  Natasha Rai: what, since you were eight?
• 15:12
  Zahid Gamieldien: Since I was eight.
• 15:14
  Zahid Gamieldien: I made two other attempts before writing all the missing children.
• 15:17
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, although none of them were actually finished, I, I abandoned all of them.
• 15:22
  Natasha Rai: Okay, so, um, we don't have to go year by year of your life, don't worry.
• 15:27
  Natasha Rai: But you are eight, you have a go at writing this novel.
• 15:30
  Natasha Rai: Um, and then what happens, like you go to school, high school mm-hmm.
• 15:34
  Natasha Rai: Maybe university.
• 15:35
  Natasha Rai: I know that you've trained or studied in something other than writing.
• 15:41
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 15:41
  Natasha Rai: So at what point did you decide to have a, I guess want of a better word.
• 15:47
  Natasha Rai: Proper go.
• 15:48
  Zahid Gamieldien: A proper go.
• 15:49
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 15:49
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, I had always planned to find my way back to writing.
• 15:54
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 15:55
  Zahid Gamieldien: But, you know, I think.
• 15:57
  Zahid Gamieldien: It was important to me to gain independence, I guess, and it's not, I, I don't come from wealth and so I wanted to, uh, you know, get a degree, get a job, move out of home, all of those sorts of things.
• 16:11
  Zahid Gamieldien: And, and so what I had always planned to do was work for a little while.
• 16:16
  Zahid Gamieldien: And when I had, um, established myself, I guess, or given myself a bit of leeway financially, uh, I would return to writing.
• 16:24
  Zahid Gamieldien: And so.
• 16:26
  Zahid Gamieldien: Uh, my wife, uh, who I met in law school, we'd, we'd both kind of worked as lawyers and she came to me and said, this, this law thing is really not for me.
• 16:35
  Zahid Gamieldien: I think I wanna be a doctor.
• 16:37
  Zahid Gamieldien: And so I said, okay, that seems, that seems fair.
• 16:41
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and so she went and retrained as a, as a.
• 16:45
  Zahid Gamieldien: Doctor, and she's now a gp and you know, she's, she's amazing.
• 16:48
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and at some point she said, I'd like to do a stint in the country, uh, to, to gain, um, experience there.
• 16:57
  Zahid Gamieldien: And so for me that was kind of the, the turning point because I.
• 17:01
  Zahid Gamieldien: The university was putting us up, um, in accommodation and paying her a stipend, and we didn't have huge expenses.
• 17:09
  Zahid Gamieldien: And so I thought, well, I'll quit my job and I'll take a year and I'll see where this writing thing actually goes.
• 17:16
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and so that's what I did and I, I was, um, lucky enough to have a short story published shortly after I'd, I'd done that.
• 17:26
  Zahid Gamieldien: And, um, I haven't said this to me.
• 17:30
  Zahid Gamieldien: Very many people, but actually cried when that short story was published because just, oh, it's a huge moment,
• 17:35
  Natasha Rai: isn't it?
• 17:35
  Natasha Rai: It was, it was such a, just a recognition.
• 17:37
  Zahid Gamieldien: Absolutely.
• 17:38
  Zahid Gamieldien: And, and, you know, I was sort of like, well, maybe I can do this.
• 17:42
  Zahid Gamieldien: And, and I sort of took it from there.
• 17:44
  Natasha Rai: Well, as a big fan of your work, I'm glad you did.
• 17:48
  Zahid Gamieldien: Oh, thank you very much.
• 17:49
  Natasha Rai: Um, so.
• 17:51
  Natasha Rai: All of that con all, not all of that, all those conversations happened with the agent and your, the producer after that year or during while you were still working on it?
• 18:02
  Zahid Gamieldien: Oh, no, no, no.
• 18:04
  Zahid Gamieldien: After which year, sorry.
• 18:05
  Natasha Rai: So that year that you're talking about where you lived in the country, did you start writing?
• 18:09
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, no, no.
• 18:10
  Natasha Rai: Oh, sorry.
• 18:11
  Natasha Rai: You were writing something else.
• 18:11
  Zahid Gamieldien: So I, I wrote short stories for quite a long period.
• 18:15
  Natasha Rai: Ah, right.
• 18:15
  Natasha Rai: Got
• 18:16
  Zahid Gamieldien: After that.
• 18:17
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and.
• 18:20
  Zahid Gamieldien: How many years?
• 18:21
  Zahid Gamieldien: Probably, probably four or five years after that that I started working on missing children.
• 18:26
  Zahid Gamieldien: So the one year that I was meant to take out turned into several years.
• 18:30
  Zahid Gamieldien: But, um, I was, uh, fortunate to get a job teaching.
• 18:34
  Zahid Gamieldien: I.
• 18:35
  Zahid Gamieldien: Creative writing.
• 18:36
  Zahid Gamieldien: Uh, so I could do that while working on my own project.
• 18:40
  Natasha Rai: Ah, got it.
• 18:40
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 18:41
  Natasha Rai: And then in terms of teaching, you teach adults, is that right?
• 18:45
  Natasha Rai: Like
• 18:45
  Zahid Gamieldien: I do, yeah.
• 18:46
  Natasha Rai: Creative writing, not children.
• 18:47
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 18:48
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 18:48
  Natasha Rai: Um, and it sounds like you do take what you know into your own work, like in terms of structure and the questions that you mentioned that you ask yourself when you're starting mm-hmm.
• 18:59
  Natasha Rai: A manuscript, um.
• 19:02
  Natasha Rai: Does it always impact your approach, what you like, what you teach to others, or do you kind of just go, oh, well I say this to my students, but I'll go do something else?
• 19:12
  Zahid Gamieldien: There's, there's probably a two part kind of answer to that question because I think I, I do think.
• 19:19
  Zahid Gamieldien: Understanding story structure is like incredibly useful for any writer.
• 19:25
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 19:26
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I would encourage all writers to, to gain an understanding of it.
• 19:29
  Zahid Gamieldien: And to be honest, story structure is something that I only fully, I don't even know if I fully understand it now, but I only understood, uh, well after I started teaching it.
• 19:39
  Zahid Gamieldien: So when I was a student, I didn't quite get it.
• 19:42
  Zahid Gamieldien: But when I started teaching it, I think I, I.
• 19:45
  Zahid Gamieldien: Gained a far better grasp of it, and I think whether or not you want to follow story structure, challenge it, um, you know, uh.
• 19:55
  Zahid Gamieldien: In some ways, you're always interacting with it and knowing the ways in which you're interacting with it can be really helpful if you're putting together a, a novel and a lot of the manuscripts that I see and even some works in, in that I see that are in print, I tend to think, well, this might have been better if the, if the writer had a deeper understanding of structure and how they work.
• 20:17
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um.
• 20:18
  Zahid Gamieldien: Interact with it.
• 20:20
  Zahid Gamieldien: So I definitely take that part into my writing, but I don't necessarily follow traditional story structure.
• 20:27
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I think that's evident with the book that I've written.
• 20:30
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and I think the second part of that is I.
• 20:34
  Zahid Gamieldien: That when I started teaching, I, I think I clung to the certainties of style guides and things like that when it came to craft, so, mm-hmm.
• 20:44
  Zahid Gamieldien: You know, if I saw an adverb, I'd be like, strike this adverb, get it away from me.
• 20:49
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, or, you know, if, if somebody used as, as a conjunction, I'd be like, no, I don't.
• 20:54
  Zahid Gamieldien: I don't think so my friend.
• 20:56
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 20:56
  Zahid Gamieldien: But the longer you go on, the more you teach, the more you read, the more you understand that there are.
• 21:03
  Zahid Gamieldien: Almost an infinite number of ways in which to write well.
• 21:07
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and you become more relaxed about those sort of craft things as you go along.
• 21:14
  Zahid Gamieldien: So.
• 21:15
  Zahid Gamieldien: You start focusing less on the technical aspects of craft and what you're teaching people and more on how the pros and the story, how those elements land with, um, an intelligent, literate, engaged reader.
• 21:33
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, so maybe that is another tip.
• 21:34
  Zahid Gamieldien: Don't, don't sweat the technical rules that you see in a style book, but focus on the effect that your craft has on readers.
• 21:42
  Natasha Rai: There is a balance though, because I mean, I think some emergent writers, depending on who they're talking to or where they're getting their, uh, lessons, I guess from.
• 21:52
  Natasha Rai: Get told that they can't break the rules, right?
• 21:54
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 21:55
  Natasha Rai: That you have to follow the rules and then once you are established, whatever that means, mm-hmm.
• 21:59
  Natasha Rai: You can break them.
• 21:59
  Natasha Rai: But also at the same time, when you look at what's winning prizes, um, even especially unpublished manuscript, more and more manuscripts that take risks are being awarded those prizes.
• 22:11
  Natasha Rai: I'm not asking you your take on that.
• 22:13
  Natasha Rai: I guess I'm asking if somebody does wanna break the rules in some way, what would be your advice to them about how they could do that?
• 22:22
  Zahid Gamieldien: I, I mean, I think the only real rule is, you know, if it works, it works.
• 22:28
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I think that's a, that's a good rule of thumb.
• 22:29
  Zahid Gamieldien: So I think if you focus on how it lands with your readers and what sort of feedback you're getting from your trusted readers, like that's really what should be guiding you.
• 22:40
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and there is a tension between.
• 22:43
  Zahid Gamieldien: The market and artistic merit, you know?
• 22:46
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 22:47
  Zahid Gamieldien: It is the publishing industry after all.
• 22:49
  Zahid Gamieldien: So if you're taking risks, it might be that a publisher is less likely to allow you to get that in print.
• 22:57
  Zahid Gamieldien: Taking risks.
• 22:58
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, I.
• 22:59
  Zahid Gamieldien: When you're new and more likely to allow it when you've, you know, written your third, fourth book.
• 23:04
  Zahid Gamieldien: So mm-hmm.
• 23:05
  Zahid Gamieldien: It, it's a function of market as much as it is about the artistic merit of what you're writing.
• 23:11
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, totally.
• 23:16
  Bianca Breen: Hi, I'm Bianca Breen and my debut novel is a YA Fantasy called Made of Steam and Stardust.
• 23:23
  Bianca Breen: It's published on 12th of May by Stag Beetle books in the US.
• 23:27
  Bianca Breen: When a Comet hurdles toward her planet 16-year-old inventor, Gerdie is determined to stop it and use her success to improve the conditions of the factories she works in.
• 23:37
  Bianca Breen: She'll build a machine that will save the world, but as she hunts for the paths to build her creation, she encounters fell.
• 23:44
  Bianca Breen: A mysterious boy with an unsettling connection to the Comet, he's being hunted by the ruthless Conqueror Seki, and soon Gerdie is too.
• 23:53
  Bianca Breen: On the run, the duo uncovers a chilling secret blueprints for a deadly army of automatons.
• 23:59
  Bianca Breen: The army is nearly complete, but a final piece is still missing.
• 24:03
  Bianca Breen: If Gerdie doesn't find it before Conqueror Seki does, the comet will be the least of her worries.
• 24:07
  Bianca Breen: I.
• 24:08
  Bianca Breen: I hope readers love the adventure, the quirkiness, and the heart of the novel.
• 24:13
  Bianca Breen: I hope it reminds them that although the beautiful nature on this earth is strong, it still needs our help, and I hope it prompts them to look up at the stars every now and then.
• 24:27
  Natasha Rai: Other common mistakes or errors or.
• 24:29
  Natasha Rai: I don't wanna use the word tropes, but maybe patterns that you see in emerging writers or the manuscripts that you get to look at.
• 24:40
  Zahid Gamieldien: Generally.
• 24:41
  Zahid Gamieldien: The thing that you'll notice is when a story is driven by events rather than character.
• 24:49
  Zahid Gamieldien: Because, uh, people tend not to understand that.
• 24:53
  Zahid Gamieldien: Uh, readers are, are mostly interested in understanding your character and going on a journey with them.
• 24:59
  Zahid Gamieldien: And if you are imposing story events on that character that are unnatural and you're forcing them to make choices that they wouldn't believably make for the sake of drama, readers are going to cotton onto that really quickly and they're gonna react against it.
• 25:15
  Zahid Gamieldien: I think that's, uh, one of the major mistakes that emerging writers make that you see in a lot of manuscripts.
• 25:21
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and maybe that comes out of a sense of.
• 25:24
  Zahid Gamieldien: Wanting to rush, you know?
• 25:26
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 25:26
  Zahid Gamieldien: Writers not being patient with themselves and their work, because especially when you are, when you are young and you are trying to get into print, you think you have to do it tomorrow.
• 25:38
  Zahid Gamieldien: Whereas the truth is you, you know, when you start out, there's going to be a gap, as Ira Glass says, between what you are writing and the sort of literature that you might enjoy reading.
• 25:52
  Zahid Gamieldien: And the only way to close that gap is to spend time on it, practice your craft, to keep, to keep writing.
• 26:00
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and it's sometimes I think it's gonna be a gap that you're never really gonna feel like is ever closed.
• 26:06
  Zahid Gamieldien: 'cause um, I've got a book in print and, and you know, I, I certainly don't think I'm at the level of the writers that I was trying to emulate and I when I started, and all you can do is just.
• 26:18
  Zahid Gamieldien: Keep going.
• 26:19
  Zahid Gamieldien: Put the time in and hope that you close that gap.
• 26:22
  Natasha Rai: Totally.
• 26:24
  Natasha Rai: Excellent advice.
• 26:25
  Natasha Rai: So, I mean, I, I know that when we first met, I was intimidated by the idea that you are a writing teacher, because I was like, oh my God, this guy knows everything about writing.
• 26:38
  Natasha Rai: So how did, when you've got a manuscript ready or a draft that you are okay with.
• 26:45
  Natasha Rai: Do you have trusted readers and and or mentors that you also need that feedback from?
• 26:51
  Natasha Rai: Or are you kind of thinking, well, I know what I'm doing, I know my way around a story, characters, et cetera, so I don't need that.
• 26:59
  Zahid Gamieldien: Uh, no, I don't think you ever feel like you know what you're doing.
• 27:03
  Zahid Gamieldien: That's, that's one thing that I think, you know, there, there are, there's that famous quote where it's like, you know, writing is a craft where in which we're all apprentices and which in which none of us become a master.
• 27:14
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I, and I think that's true.
• 27:16
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, I don't think.
• 27:18
  Zahid Gamieldien: Anyone can write the perfect novel or know everything.
• 27:21
  Zahid Gamieldien: You are constantly learning.
• 27:23
  Zahid Gamieldien: You're constantly improving.
• 27:24
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, so yes, I have a lot of self-doubt about my work, and I'm constantly talking to my wife, Kirsty, and I, I go to her and I say, you know, I think I might be a bad writer.
• 27:37
  Zahid Gamieldien: And she'll say, no, no, you're not.
• 27:39
  Zahid Gamieldien: I've, you know, I've read your work.
• 27:40
  Zahid Gamieldien: You've got all of these things published behind you, and I go.
• 27:43
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah, but is that evidence though?
• 27:45
  Zahid Gamieldien: I don't really know.
• 27:45
  Zahid Gamieldien: And so, you know, and, but then there are days where I think, oh, you know, I've written something that's really worthwhile and great.
• 27:51
  Zahid Gamieldien: And, you know, I, I think that's completely normal to, to feel as a writer.
• 27:57
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and absolutely having trusted readers.
• 28:01
  Zahid Gamieldien: Helps you because every time I send something to my trusted readers, I worry that they're gonna be like, this is complete rubbish.
• 28:09
  Zahid Gamieldien: So I, I don't know that that's ever gonna go away for me as a writer.
• 28:14
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 28:14
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 28:14
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I don't know about other people's experiences, but I, I feel it's really important.
• 28:18
  Zahid Gamieldien: And having their feedback gives me a degree of confidence about the work.
• 28:23
  Zahid Gamieldien: 'cause I think, well, you know, someone thinks it's worthwhile and.
• 28:28
  Zahid Gamieldien: The trusted readers that I have, thankfully are intelligent, literate, kind, and critical people.
• 28:35
  Zahid Gamieldien: So, um, for example, I have a story that's coming out in Overland that I wrote a little while ago, and it's been sitting there and one of my trusted readers.
• 28:45
  Zahid Gamieldien: Just intermittently would just send me a text message going like, what are you doing with that story?
• 28:49
  Zahid Gamieldien: It's really great.
• 28:50
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I was, I kept going, oh, I'm not really sure that it is that great.
• 28:54
  Zahid Gamieldien: And he was like, well, submit it.
• 28:56
  Zahid Gamieldien: See what happens.
• 28:57
  Zahid Gamieldien: And so I submitted it and I texted him saying, oh, that story got accepted.
• 29:02
  Zahid Gamieldien: It's gonna be published.
• 29:03
  Zahid Gamieldien: And he just replied, of course it is.
• 29:04
  Zahid Gamieldien: You idiot.
• 29:06
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I think you need people in your life Yeah.
• 29:08
  Zahid Gamieldien: Who are going to be both.
• 29:10
  Zahid Gamieldien: You know, e encouraging and critical.
• 29:13
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 29:13
  Natasha Rai: Your own cheering squad.
• 29:14
  Natasha Rai: Your own private cheerleaders.
• 29:16
  Zahid Gamieldien: Well, not necessarily cheerleaders'cause you want them to tell it like it is you
• 29:20
  Natasha Rai: No, but they're, they're giving critical feedback, but they're also saying it's worth something.
• 29:24
  Natasha Rai: It's, that's
• 29:25
  Zahid Gamieldien: right.
• 29:25
  Natasha Rai: They're right.
• 29:25
  Natasha Rai: Offer good enough standard and equality.
• 29:28
  Natasha Rai: And if it's not there, they're cheering you on to say keep working on it.
• 29:31
  Natasha Rai: Right.
• 29:32
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah, yeah.
• 29:32
  Zahid Gamieldien: And telling you the ways in which you can improve it.
• 29:35
  Zahid Gamieldien: I think that's important.
• 29:36
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yes,
• 29:36
  Natasha Rai: exactly.
• 29:37
  Natasha Rai: And it's important as well, I think to have.
• 29:40
  Natasha Rai: People around you who are not just family or spouses because they are supposed to say they love it and they're supposed to say that you're good.
• 29:47
  Natasha Rai: Right?
• 29:48
  Zahid Gamieldien: That's right.
• 29:48
  Zahid Gamieldien: Right.
• 29:49
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah, exactly.
• 29:49
  Zahid Gamieldien: I, I've actually told this, this story before, but I, I, when Kirsty reads my work, I do this terrible thing, which is that I watch her as she's reading it.
• 29:58
  Natasha Rai: Oh my God.
• 29:59
  Natasha Rai: Oh my God, that poor woman.
• 30:01
  Zahid Gamieldien: And she, she absolutely hates it because of course she hates it.
• 30:04
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 30:04
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 30:05
  Zahid Gamieldien: So, so now she, she kind of withdraws to somewhere else to read it and then comes back and, and gives me the feedback on it.
• 30:11
  Natasha Rai: Oh my God.
• 30:12
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 30:13
  Natasha Rai: You need to, yeah.
• 30:13
  Natasha Rai: I'm glad you, well, I'm glad she's figured I had to get away from you because that would do my head in.
• 30:18
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 30:20
  Natasha Rai: Uh, so you said earlier, Zahid, that about your novel about.
• 30:24
  Natasha Rai: The crime element and leaving it maybe unresolved or up to the reader.
• 30:29
  Natasha Rai: That's right.
• 30:29
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 30:29
  Natasha Rai: And the impact of it on the other characters.
• 30:32
  Natasha Rai: So I, I mean, this is a double barrel question, so you can choose to answer all of it or mm-hmm.
• 30:37
  Natasha Rai: One or both elements.
• 30:38
  Natasha Rai: Um, how did, how was it for you that, you know, somebody like Ultima Press, you know, a reputable, really good quality publisher took a.
• 30:48
  Natasha Rai: Risk, I suppose, on something that is unusual for a debut writer and also, um, what was that discussion like in terms of marketing?
• 30:58
  Natasha Rai: Because this kind of defies your book, defies, uh, easy kind of.
• 31:06
  Natasha Rai: Definition in terms of thank, thank you.
• 31:09
  Natasha Rai: Categorization is a better word.
• 31:10
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 31:11
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, yeah, I mean, I'm assuming most people wouldn't have read it.
• 31:16
  Zahid Gamieldien: It's sort of, it is a strange book in that it doesn't fit neatly into any genre.
• 31:21
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, it's been classed as complex crime, horror, aura, mystery, uh.
• 31:29
  Zahid Gamieldien: Gothic fiction, literary fiction, those, I think those are the five ways it's been kind of described.
• 31:35
  Zahid Gamieldien: And um, that does make it difficult from a marketing point of view.
• 31:41
  Zahid Gamieldien: Uh, I think of it as literary fiction, but I might just think of it in that way because that suggests that I can do whatever I want in terms of genre mm-hmm.
• 31:51
  Zahid Gamieldien: Without having to worry about it.
• 31:53
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, but if you think about it as.
• 31:55
  Zahid Gamieldien: Crime fiction, then it is kind of difficult because it doesn't do the things that crime fiction readers might expect from.
• 32:03
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yes.
• 32:03
  Zahid Gamieldien: That sort of novel
• 32:04
  Natasha Rai: and interestingly, and I'm trying to word this so carefully without giving anything away, there is a crime element, but it's not the element that you are set up to think it will be.
• 32:16
  Natasha Rai: That was so clumsy.
• 32:18
  Natasha Rai: Um, so what, I mean, I'm talking about Omar and that's all I'm gonna say, that there is a crime.
• 32:23
  Natasha Rai: His is a more, I guess, traditional crime story, but you find out very quickly that he is not investigating the thing you think he's investigating.
• 32:31
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 32:31
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 32:32
  Zahid Gamieldien: So, you know, structurally that was the gambit for that section.
• 32:36
  Zahid Gamieldien: And, and it's the way in which, um, it plays with crime fiction structure in the sense that you think the question that's being set up is one thing, but the question that is answered by the end of that is a different one.
• 32:50
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and.
• 32:51
  Zahid Gamieldien: I was hoping that people were willing to go along with that for the, for the crime fiction section.
• 32:56
  Zahid Gamieldien: But overall, there's not a detective character that goes through and attempts to solve, um, the core question of what happened to the, to the two children that go missing at the end of part one.
• 33:08
  Zahid Gamieldien: And, um, there's no scene in which all of the facts are laid out for the reader.
• 33:13
  Zahid Gamieldien: And you are told the answer now.
• 33:16
  Zahid Gamieldien: Crime fiction readers tend to expect that.
• 33:19
  Zahid Gamieldien: Exactly.
• 33:20
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yes.
• 33:21
  Zahid Gamieldien: If you are a crime fiction reader, you are going to be engaging with a different kind of experience.
• 33:27
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and when Ultimo Press came on board, they spoke to me about it as a crossover.
• 33:34
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 33:34
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 33:34
  Zahid Gamieldien: So it's a literary novel that crosses over into other genre categories.
• 33:38
  Zahid Gamieldien: And one of the genre car categories into which it crosses is crime fiction.
• 33:43
  Zahid Gamieldien: So it was marketed to a section of the crime fiction, um, readership or, or mm-hmm.
• 33:49
  Zahid Gamieldien: Audience.
• 33:49
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 33:50
  Zahid Gamieldien: And.
• 33:52
  Zahid Gamieldien: The compromise that we kind of came to was that it could sit there, but the cover would be a very non-traditional crime fiction cover.
• 34:00
  Zahid Gamieldien: So the cover, which is Yes.
• 34:01
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 34:02
  Zahid Gamieldien: It, it doesn't, it doesn't look like other crime fiction novels you would encounter.
• 34:06
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and it has some.
• 34:09
  Zahid Gamieldien: Horror elements, some mystery elements, maybe some literary fiction suggestion as part of the cover.
• 34:15
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and that's the intention of that is to put people on notice that if you are buying this book, you're not getting the, the normal crime fiction experience, even if it has some crime fiction elements.
• 34:26
  Natasha Rai: Hmm.
• 34:27
  Natasha Rai: Because that's,'cause I, I find this really interesting'cause I've had quite a few writers or emerging writers say to me that they're not writing something that is easily definable.
• 34:35
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 34:36
  Natasha Rai: Um, so I guess your experience speaks to write it anyway because you will find maybe a home for it at some point, but you will find a publisher who's willing to take that risk.
• 34:47
  Natasha Rai: I mean, who,'cause it is a risk,
• 34:49
  Zahid Gamieldien: right?
• 34:49
  Zahid Gamieldien: It is a risk.
• 34:49
  Zahid Gamieldien: It is a risk.
• 34:51
  Zahid Gamieldien: And as I was saying, it's, you know, there are market factors.
• 34:54
  Zahid Gamieldien: Involved in, in them, they make a calculation over how many units they think they can shift with your novel, and that probably determines whether or not they're willing to take the risk on it.
• 35:05
  Zahid Gamieldien: So, you know, if you want a more sure fire path to publication, then uh, eliminating publication risks is one way of doing it.
• 35:14
  Zahid Gamieldien: But I would probably encourage people to write the thing that they want to write and just do.
• 35:20
  Zahid Gamieldien: As good a job as they possibly can.
• 35:22
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and if it's, if it's good enough, hopefully, um, the market will find a place for it.
• 35:29
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 35:30
  Natasha Rai: Uh, as the market tends to do for things that are brilliant and different.
• 35:36
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 35:36
  Zahid Gamieldien: But brilliant and different is, is, uh, a hard bar to meet sometimes.
• 35:42
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um,
• 35:42
  Natasha Rai: good enough and different.
• 35:43
  Zahid Gamieldien: Good enough and different.
• 35:44
  Zahid Gamieldien: Good enough and different.
• 35:46
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 35:46
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 35:46
  Natasha Rai: Um, so you mentioned earlier about timing.
• 35:49
  Natasha Rai: Mm-hmm.
• 35:49
  Natasha Rai: So I'm getting a sense, actually, I've heard you say it, so it's not just a sense, um, that you sometimes struggle with your time management.
• 35:56
  Natasha Rai: So in terms of,
• 35:58
  Zahid Gamieldien: are you outing me in this podcast for struggling with time management?
• 36:00
  Natasha Rai: You literally said it.
• 36:01
  Natasha Rai: You actually said it on not a podcast.
• 36:02
  Natasha Rai: So I'm not outing you.
• 36:03
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 36:03
  Natasha Rai: It's not something that's not already available.
• 36:05
  Zahid Gamieldien: It's already in the public domain.
• 36:06
  Natasha Rai: It's already in the public domain.
• 36:08
  Natasha Rai: Um, so I guess my question is about what sustains you and supports you to keep writing and how you do approach time management, because I know you have family commitments, um, as well as, you know, young children and all the, you know, life stuff that a lot of people have.
• 36:24
  Natasha Rai: So how do you find.
• 36:26
  Natasha Rai: Time to do your writing practice?
• 36:28
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, oh, I, I, I mean, I was struggling, uh, before when I was working, uh, teaching, writing and, uh, writing as well.
• 36:39
  Zahid Gamieldien: I have taken some time off from teaching, um, because I was, I got a two book deal and I have a deadline, a looming deadline, uh, to get in my second manuscript.
• 36:50
  Zahid Gamieldien: And so I felt like I needed to, to take that time.
• 36:53
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um.
• 36:54
  Zahid Gamieldien: So primarily that's really where I've, uh, stolen time from is, is from the other job that I used to work.
• 37:02
  Zahid Gamieldien: And, um, I was lucky enough to get a create New South Wales grant, which kind of supplemented my income and gave me the freedom to write.
• 37:11
  Zahid Gamieldien: And that's another thing that I would really encourage people to do is apply for grants.
• 37:16
  Zahid Gamieldien: Uh, I know that.
• 37:18
  Zahid Gamieldien: It's a bit of a crapshoot and you never know what the outcome is gonna be, but it could be good.
• 37:23
  Zahid Gamieldien: And if the, if you know, the worst thing that can happen is that you're in the exact same position that you are already in.
• 37:28
  Natasha Rai: Exactly.
• 37:29
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 37:30
  Zahid Gamieldien: So, so I would say really, you know, apply for whatever grants, uh, you're eligible for.
• 37:36
  Zahid Gamieldien: So, you know that, I think that's mainly where I've stolen time from.
• 37:39
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, it is, it is hard if you have family commitments and children.
• 37:46
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm-hmm.
• 37:46
  Zahid Gamieldien: Sometimes,
• 37:46
  Natasha Rai: of course.
• 37:47
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 37:47
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um.
• 37:48
  Zahid Gamieldien: But you know, the, the rewards are, are worth it, I think, for me anyway.
• 37:53
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 37:54
  Natasha Rai: And it's about finding what works for the individual, right?
• 37:57
  Natasha Rai: So if you know you have time in the morning or in the afternoon or whatever it is, how many times a week you just make that work?
• 38:03
  Natasha Rai: I.
• 38:03
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah, that's absolutely right.
• 38:05
  Zahid Gamieldien: You, you need to, whatever time you, you have, you need to be able to make it work.
• 38:08
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I used to write on my phone, on the bus, so I would be, you know, open up an email that I would send to myself and just hammer away and hope that I could figure something out that way.
• 38:19
  Zahid Gamieldien: So, you know, whatever time you can dedicate to it, like you, you need to steal that from, from your life and do it.
• 38:26
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 38:28
  Natasha Rai: Um, so we've got a little bit more time for a couple more questions.
• 38:32
  Natasha Rai: Um.
• 38:34
  Natasha Rai: What have you learned along the way?
• 38:36
  Natasha Rai: What's the most important, orig, maybe not important, but significant lesson that you've learned along the way?
• 38:40
  Natasha Rai: In terms of anything publishing, writing, craft.
• 38:45
  Natasha Rai: Time management.
• 38:48
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, I mean, I can talk about the, the way that I try and approach writing.
• 38:53
  Zahid Gamieldien: 'cause I, when I carve out space for writing, I find that I do my best work if I'm in a deep thinking zone.
• 39:01
  Zahid Gamieldien: And it can be really hard.
• 39:03
  Zahid Gamieldien: To get into that zone as a writer, especially if, you know, there's a finite amount of time that you'll be writing.
• 39:08
  Zahid Gamieldien: So, you know, before I start writing, I, you know, I, I work, do all my work on Scrivener.
• 39:13
  Zahid Gamieldien: I open Scrivener up, I'll do some breathing to mm-hmm.
• 39:19
  Zahid Gamieldien: To get me in the, into the zone.
• 39:20
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I put on binaural beats and I put my headphones on.
• 39:23
  Zahid Gamieldien: So I have this kind of.
• 39:25
  Zahid Gamieldien: Going and then I know that that's a signal to me that this time is the time that I'm gonna spend writing.
• 39:32
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and so I think creating some sort of.
• 39:36
  Zahid Gamieldien: Not necessarily ritual, but, but something you do that suggests like, this is my time to write and that's what I'm gonna be doing for this period, can be really helpful.
• 39:46
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, in terms of what else, what else have I learned?
• 39:49
  Zahid Gamieldien: Well, I, I think, um, and I said this on a panel that I was on, uh, with you earlier, but, uh, you know, the Australian writing and publishing industry is really small, so, you know, that's good and bad.
• 40:03
  Zahid Gamieldien: It's bad in the sense that the, the market can be risk averse and you know, it, it might be harder to get something, uh, in print that is literary fiction and really different.
• 40:17
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, but it's good in the sense that you get to meet all of these different riders when, when you go around and.
• 40:25
  Zahid Gamieldien: Generally speaking, they're, they're lovely people.
• 40:28
  Zahid Gamieldien: They're supportive and they're, you know, not arrogant and they want to talk about writing.
• 40:33
  Zahid Gamieldien: They're interested in what you are doing, you are interested in what they're doing.
• 40:36
  Zahid Gamieldien: So it's a really nice, supportive community, generally speaking.
• 40:40
  Zahid Gamieldien: And that's one thing that I've learned.
• 40:43
  Natasha Rai: Totally, definitely wholeheartedly agree.
• 40:46
  Natasha Rai: Um, and in terms of that practice that you mentioned, you know, getting like almost a ritual to start is for you, does that only work when you are at home, like in your private space, or can you do that, I don't know, in a library or a cafe, or does it have to be kind of like a quiet, empty, private space?
• 41:04
  Zahid Gamieldien: Well, I tend to like writing in, in a quiet, empty space.
• 41:07
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, but uh, it's not a.
• 41:11
  Zahid Gamieldien: I, I'm describing that practice more as an example, rather than saying, this is the thing that you should do.
• 41:18
  Natasha Rai: Yeah,
• 41:18
  Zahid Gamieldien: and I think that some writers love going to a cafe and settling down to write.
• 41:24
  Zahid Gamieldien: Some writers get their best ideas when they're walking.
• 41:27
  Zahid Gamieldien: Some writers really like wasting water and having really long showers'cause that's the only way they can solve their story problems.
• 41:34
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 41:34
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 41:34
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I think, you know, all of those things.
• 41:37
  Zahid Gamieldien: Can work.
• 41:38
  Zahid Gamieldien: And as a writer you just need to find the practice that helps you be your most creative.
• 41:43
  Natasha Rai: Yeah, totally.
• 41:45
  Natasha Rai: And I know that you've already snuck in lots and lots of excellent tips in this episode, but I'm wondering if there's anything that you brought in that you haven't said or any kind of final tip for, especially for emerging writers who maybe are looking for a traditional publishing, you know, deal.
• 42:01
  Zahid Gamieldien: Right.
• 42:01
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, so when I've been asked this question before, I've said stuff like.
• 42:05
  Zahid Gamieldien: Finish what you start.
• 42:07
  Zahid Gamieldien: And maybe that's advice that I would've wanted to give my younger self as well.
• 42:11
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:12
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and I've also said, you know, seek, seek balance in your writing.
• 42:16
  Zahid Gamieldien: You know, be, uh, have self-belief, be stubborn, but also at the right times, be open and, and have humility.
• 42:23
  Zahid Gamieldien: So, um, maybe one thing I haven't really spoken a lot about is, um, perseverance.
• 42:30
  Zahid Gamieldien: And you do hear a lot of people talking about the need.
• 42:34
  Zahid Gamieldien: For, for perseverance when you are writing.
• 42:37
  Zahid Gamieldien: But I always think, well, how do you actually do that?
• 42:40
  Zahid Gamieldien: Mm.
• 42:40
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and I think it's about having the right mindset when it comes to your writing.
• 42:48
  Zahid Gamieldien: So what you want to feel about your writing is that you are happy with how far you've come, but you know that you can still do better.
• 42:58
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and I think if you cultivate that mindset.
• 43:01
  Zahid Gamieldien: Then when you face a setback, you can think, oh yeah.
• 43:05
  Zahid Gamieldien: Like that's, that's fine.
• 43:07
  Zahid Gamieldien: I'm proud of that work.
• 43:08
  Zahid Gamieldien: It didn't quite make it, but I'm a better writer now than I was then, and this next work is gonna be better.
• 43:12
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I.
• 43:13
  Zahid Gamieldien: When you have a success, you can think, oh, you know, I'm really happy that that made it into print and I'm now a better writer, so I'm gonna go write something else.
• 43:23
  Zahid Gamieldien: You know?
• 43:24
  Zahid Gamieldien: And I was thinking about this this morning and I was like, well, what do I call this?
• 43:27
  Zahid Gamieldien: Do I have a name for it?
• 43:28
  Zahid Gamieldien: Do I call it, you know, happy dissatisfaction or like something like that.
• 43:33
  Zahid Gamieldien: And then I thought, you're not being particularly innovative here by saying this.
• 43:38
  Zahid Gamieldien: You just, um.
• 43:40
  Zahid Gamieldien: Stealing from Samuel Beckett.
• 43:41
  Zahid Gamieldien: You know, there's the, uh, ever, ever failed, ever tried, ever failed, fail again, failed better.
• 43:47
  Zahid Gamieldien: And that's really how you should go into it.
• 43:50
  Zahid Gamieldien: So the tip is steal from Samuel Beckett and you No, no.
• 43:55
  Zahid Gamieldien: The tip, the tip is be, be happy with how far you've come as a writer.
• 44:01
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, but know that you can still do better because that's, that's the way new and great art is made and will always be made.
• 44:10
  Natasha Rai: And you know, just to expand on that, a way to be happy with what you've done is to look at older drafts or to look at what you were writing and how much has improved.
• 44:19
  Natasha Rai: 'cause it, because it can be hard to go, oh, I'm really happy with the fact that I was rejected, or, you know, this is fine, this is great.
• 44:26
  Natasha Rai: Next time.
• 44:27
  Natasha Rai: It does help to look at old stuff.
• 44:29
  Natasha Rai: I do that from time to time.
• 44:30
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 44:31
  Natasha Rai: Thank you.
• 44:31
  Natasha Rai: Oh, this is a crap.
• 44:32
  Natasha Rai: Yeah,
• 44:32
  Zahid Gamieldien: absolutely.
• 44:33
  Zahid Gamieldien: That's the bit I forgot to say is I think if you, um.
• 44:37
  Zahid Gamieldien: In practical terms, if you go back and look at something that you wrote five, 10 years ago or something like that, you will be able to see how much better you are now and you'll automatically start editing that thing in your mind.
• 44:51
  Zahid Gamieldien: So, yeah.
• 44:52
  Natasha Rai: Yeah.
• 44:53
  Zahid Gamieldien: You know, I, I think that's, that's just a way of reminding yourself that you are on a journey.
• 44:58
  Zahid Gamieldien: You're always on a, on a journey of improvement when you are writing.
• 45:02
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and even though it's not linear, it is.
• 45:07
  Zahid Gamieldien: Kind of always moving in one direction, and that is towards becoming a better writer.
• 45:14
  Natasha Rai: So profound.
• 45:15
  Natasha Rai: I feel like we need to end this episode there.
• 45:18
  Natasha Rai: I was gonna make a terrible joke about, especially if you go back and look at your teenage poetry, you'll feel so much better.
• 45:25
  Natasha Rai: But now I've ruined your profundity of saying that.
• 45:27
  Natasha Rai: No, you have.
• 45:28
  Zahid Gamieldien: I will say I, I.
• 45:29
  Zahid Gamieldien: Looked at my teenage poetry a little while ago and I was like, oh my God, I'm so glad nobody ever saw it in this.
• 45:37
  Zahid Gamieldien: Um, and I threw out those, those old notebooks, even though history.
• 45:40
  Zahid Gamieldien: Oh damn.
• 45:41
  Zahid Gamieldien: Well all this that there
• 45:42
  Natasha Rai: are like, we'll never see it.
• 45:43
  Zahid Gamieldien: Yeah.
• 45:43
  Zahid Gamieldien: Never see the light of day.
• 45:45
  Natasha Rai: Okay.
• 45:46
  Natasha Rai: Well thank you so much for sharing all of that with me.
• 45:48
  Natasha Rai: Um, we have come to the end of our time to together today.
• 45:52
  Natasha Rai: Um, thanks for those top tips and um, best of luck with your current manuscript.
• 45:57
  Zahid Gamieldien: Well, thank you and thanks so much for having me on.
• 45:59
  Natasha Rai: My pleasure.
• 46:04
  Tina Strachan: Thank you for listening to the Book Deal podcast.
• 46:07
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• 46:15
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