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Ralph Nader Versus Big Auto · Ridiculous History

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Speaker 3: The voyeer and me is pleased and I will never
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Speaker 3: not pronounce it voy air, which, by the way, I
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Speaker 3: also decided that you know the band Pearl Jam. You know,
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Speaker 3: people often put the emphasis on the pearl pearl Jam.
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Speaker 3: I like to call them pearl Jam.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm with you.
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Speaker 2: I got your back.
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Speaker 1: The thing about this studio is that it makes us
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Speaker 1: somewhat public figures when we're recording, and it's apropos for today,
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Speaker 1: I see, because we are going to talk about.
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Speaker 2: Walk that one a long ways than I really, We're.
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Speaker 1: Gonna talk about a public figure who is perhaps a
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Speaker 1: bit more.
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Speaker 2: Well known than us. Yeah, Ralph Nadir.
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Speaker 1: Yes, which is funny because Nader, when spelled differently in
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Speaker 1: a D I R is a very low points the
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Speaker 1: lowest point, and it makes you think about nominative determinism.
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Speaker 1: But despite the name our pale, Ralph has been a
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Speaker 1: instrumental figure in the life of America.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, he's the Green Party guy, right, m hm.
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Speaker 3: He's always been a real booster for clean energy and
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Speaker 3: you know, just a general do gooder. You know, he's
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Speaker 3: the kind of cat you see pop into like democracy
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Speaker 3: now just to talk about the state of the world.
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Speaker 3: And I think his perspective is valid now more than ever.
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Speaker 3: He's not really playing the political game anymore. I think
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Speaker 3: he's a bit more of a consultant, you know, public figure,
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Speaker 3: kind of speaker.
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Speaker 2: That's right. But there was a time where he.
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Speaker 3: Was really playing with the big dogs in terms of,
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Speaker 3: you know, putting himself in to the political process. Ran
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Speaker 3: for president a couple of times, arguably to some through
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Speaker 3: a bit of a wrench into the works in terms of,
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Speaker 3: you know, the balance of votes, and maybe considered to
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Speaker 3: have done more harm than good by some just in
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Speaker 3: terms of like splitting the ticket and all of that
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Speaker 3: kind of stuff. I don't really have a perspective on
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Speaker 3: that one way or the other, but it certainly is
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Speaker 3: part of the conversation.
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Speaker 2: Sure.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, Especially back in two thousand, al Gore was running
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Speaker 1: for president and members of the Democratic Party were pretty
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Speaker 1: open in their belief that Ralph Nader cost Democrats the election.
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Speaker 1: That's not us saying that. That's people like current President
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Speaker 1: Joe Biden, who said literally to the New York Times,
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Speaker 1: Nader cost us the election.
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Speaker 2: Right.
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Speaker 3: Nader is not going to be welcome anywhere near the corridors.
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Speaker 3: Which corridors is he talking about the.
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Speaker 1: Corridors of power the halls of Congress. But he had
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Speaker 1: a well established reputation and track record going into those elections.
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Speaker 1: Back in the nineteen sixties and the nineteen seventies, he
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Speaker 1: waged a war of conscience on one of the biggest
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Speaker 1: pieces of the automotive industry. In nineteen sixty six, he
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Speaker 1: was the protagonist witness, I would call it, at these
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Speaker 1: hearings about automobile safety.
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Speaker 2: That's right.
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Speaker 3: They were conducted by Senator Abraham Ribikoff of Connecticut, of course,
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Speaker 3: which is a fabulous name for a politician. And at
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Speaker 3: the time Nader was kind of an upstart young lawyer
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Speaker 3: and you know, political activists. He had just published a
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Speaker 3: book with the very not salacious but you kind of
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Speaker 3: get it what it's about, title Unsafe at Any Speed,
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Speaker 3: The Designed in Dangers of the American Automobile. And we've
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Speaker 3: talked a lot about the history of the American automobile,
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Speaker 3: you much longer than I on your show car stuff,
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Speaker 3: but also just the idea of like seat belts, like
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Speaker 3: when they were implemented and how originally it was sort
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Speaker 3: of like, yeah, we'll throw those in and there is
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Speaker 3: a long period of the history of this, you know,
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Speaker 3: obviously incredibly important invention where safety just was not a
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Speaker 3: concern and that took a lot of political activism to
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Speaker 3: put into place.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's right.
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Speaker 1: One of my favorite weird rabbit holes to go down
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Speaker 1: in YouTube land is these compilations of people who were
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Speaker 1: angry about seat belt laws. You will hear the catchphrase
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Speaker 1: communist in all these interviews, and it's someone saying, well,
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Speaker 1: you know, making us do this. It's one more step
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Speaker 1: to communism, but it's also a huge leap forward in safety,
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Speaker 1: and it doesn't really depend on your political ideology. Why
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Speaker 1: did this guy, this young lawyer get elevated from being
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Speaker 1: witness to kind of a celebrity public figure. It's the
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Speaker 1: fact that he was targeted for retaliation by General Motors.
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Speaker 1: General Motors, as we'll find, hired pis to try to
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Speaker 1: dig up dirt on a squeaky clean dude.
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Speaker 2: That's right.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, And you know, back in nineteen thirty eight, Nator's mother, Rose,
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Speaker 3: actually took her four kids for a visit back to Lebanon,
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Speaker 3: where their heritage originates, and they actually waited in line
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Speaker 3: to meet the archbishop of the Eastern Orthodox Church, and
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Speaker 3: I believe it's pronounced zalais. But this really it's sort
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Speaker 3: of like one of these apocryphal type stories, like you.
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Speaker 2: Know, Abraham Lincoln cutting down the cherry tree or.
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Speaker 3: Whatever when watch whatever the apocryphal because I can't even
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Speaker 3: keep him straight, irrelevant because it probably didn't happen.
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Speaker 2: This may or may not have happened.
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Speaker 3: But the story goes that young Ralph, four year old
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Speaker 3: Ralph sprightly, young lad, refused to kiss the ring, which
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Speaker 3: is the thing you do you're supposed to do when
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Speaker 3: you meet a bishop, an archbishop at the very least,
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Speaker 3: and he said, no, I shall not kiss the ring.
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Speaker 3: And that is a philosophy that he carried through to
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Speaker 3: throughout his career.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, And the end of that story is apparently the
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Speaker 1: archbishop liked his vibe and so he padded Ralph on
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Speaker 1: the head and he said a lot of ideas going
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Speaker 1: to come from this boy's head. And that's a cool
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Speaker 1: way to handle it.
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Speaker 2: Is it is so him killed?
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Speaker 1: I hope not. But Ralph grew up in Connecticut, right,
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Speaker 1: and he has a very American origin story. It's kind
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Speaker 1: of like an American dream story. His father, nad Or
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Speaker 1: the Elder, arrived in the US at the tender age
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Speaker 1: of nineteen. He only had twenty bucks in his pocket,
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Speaker 1: and he was able to from that admittedly small starting capital,
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Speaker 1: he was able to a two story, ten room house
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Speaker 1: and then a building in the nearby town that became
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Speaker 1: the Highland Arms, which would be the family's restaurant, and
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Speaker 1: all the kids work at the restaurant. This this feels
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Speaker 1: already like American myth making. You know, this one's not apocryphal.
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Speaker 1: This really did happen, But it's an inspiring story.
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Speaker 3: Oh yes, especially the whole arrived on these shores with
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Speaker 3: twenty dollars in his pocket and a spring in his
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Speaker 3: step and a dream in his heart. You know, you'd
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Speaker 3: love to see it.
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Speaker 1: And he says later, looking back in life, he says,
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Speaker 1: our restaurant, the Highland Arms, was kind of a It
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Speaker 1: was almost like a salon, you know, a town meeting place,
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Speaker 1: a salon, uh huh, yeah, a pearl jam And so
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Speaker 1: Ralph would hang out and listen to these people talk
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Speaker 1: their arguments, their views, their ideologies. And when he was
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Speaker 1: fourteen years old, he was carrying home printed cop of
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Speaker 1: the Congressional record, which he would read from start to finish.
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Speaker 2: I love to read.
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Speaker 1: And let me tell you, the Congressional record, for the
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Speaker 1: most part, is a bit of.
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Speaker 2: A snooze, a bit of a slog.
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Speaker 3: Indeed, gosh, all this stuff sounds made up, but it's not. Yeah,
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Speaker 3: fourteen years old reading these transcripts absolutely incredible.
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Speaker 2: And you know, you hear about places like this restaurant.
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Speaker 3: You know here in Atlanta we have Manuel's or manuals
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Speaker 3: whennounce it, which is for a long time been a
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Speaker 3: longstanding kind of democratic sort of like place to hold court,
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Speaker 3: Jimmy Carter's favorite mark exactly. And you hear about that
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Speaker 3: in lots of different places in Connecticut with its proximity
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Speaker 3: to the seats of power, you know, New York and DC.
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Speaker 3: A lot of very politically active folks in this community.
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Speaker 3: So really cool and makes a lot of sense that
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Speaker 3: he was surrounded and kind of steeped in this world
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Speaker 3: and that he was able to at an early age
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Speaker 3: kind of formulate his own perspective as opposed to kind
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Speaker 3: of like maybe following others.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and let's not get twisted. He was an exceptional kid,
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Speaker 1: but he was still doing normal kid stuff. He had
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Speaker 1: a job as a newspaper boy. He would play baseball
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Speaker 1: for hours during the weekend. It's just that in addition
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Speaker 1: to that, Ralph was already reading biographies about the real muckrakers,
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Speaker 1: the journalists who went hard on the paint back in
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Speaker 1: the turn of the century.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, speaking truth to power, right.
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Speaker 1: And he interviewed customers they pay for something at the restaurant,
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Speaker 1: at the cash register, and he would probably he would
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Speaker 1: hit him with stuff like what do you think about
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Speaker 1: the gold standard?
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Speaker 2: That's right.
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Speaker 3: At one point he actually had a pretty and depth
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Speaker 3: conversation with Norman Thomas, who had just done a lecture.
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Speaker 3: And this guy was a very famous socialist and presidential candidate,
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Speaker 3: also somewhat of a fringe presidential candidate. You know, I
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Speaker 3: don't know that I would think of the name Norman
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Speaker 3: Thomas and associated with someone who's run for presidents six times.
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Speaker 3: But that's usually the way history treats people that don't,
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Speaker 3: you know, win. But he he says to him, or
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Speaker 3: asks of him, what is your greatest achievement? A little
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Speaker 3: bit of a softball question, I suppose, are a little
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Speaker 3: bit of like the thing a kid would ask for
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Speaker 3: a book report. But all depends on the person, doesn't it,
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Speaker 3: you know? And he got an answer that maybe he
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Speaker 3: wasn't expecting.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, this guy.
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Speaker 1: Norman says his greatest achievement is quote having the Democrats
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Speaker 1: steal my agenda.
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Speaker 2: WHOA.
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Speaker 1: What he means by that is yet he may not
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Speaker 1: have become president, but his views empowered and inspired people
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Speaker 1: in the Democratic Party, and they later enacted many of
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Speaker 1: the changes that he was hoping for. So he's saying,
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Speaker 1: the game is bigger than me, and that's something Ralph
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Speaker 1: Nader took to heart. So he goes to Harvard Law
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Speaker 1: School and he says he's pretty funny. He's a good
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Speaker 1: public speaker. He later says, from day one, I laughed
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Speaker 1: at the game to prepare corporate lawyers. If anyone fell
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Speaker 1: off the bandwagon and became a lawyer for the poor,
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Speaker 1: it was viewed as a random event. I love this part.
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Speaker 1: They made mine sharp by making them narrow.
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Speaker 2: Well, that is kind of how you make things sharp
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Speaker 2: in a knife.
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Speaker 3: Sharpening of context. But I love that that is so
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Speaker 3: visual and really really a smart way of looking at it.
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Speaker 3: It's true because these types of programs at these Ivy
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Speaker 3: League schools are designed to churn out a very specific
12:19
Speaker 3: type of individual. The caters to a very specific demographic,
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Speaker 3: aka the super wealthy, and anyone that maybe chooses to
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Speaker 3: go into more of a social justice field or maybe
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Speaker 3: to defend the poor or people that are downtrodden are
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Speaker 3: being taken advantage of. That's seen as a failure and
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Speaker 3: they're probably not asked to speak at alumni events or
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Speaker 3: you know, graduation ceremonies.
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Speaker 2: So not unless they become a huge public figure. Ye, wells,
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Speaker 2: we'll see. Yeah.
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Speaker 1: And there's another thing I love about Ralph Nader in
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Speaker 1: this point in time. So he's going to one of
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Speaker 1: the most prestigious schools on the planet, and he's also
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Speaker 1: regularly disappearing. He becomes a drifter. He hitchhikes around the country.
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Speaker 3: He's like this beat poet, kind of like young political
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Speaker 3: activist ideologue.
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Speaker 2: I love it.
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Speaker 3: It's just a really Johnny Appleseed type vish no, pretty cool.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's researching the rights of Indigenous Americans, looking into
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Speaker 1: immigration and my workers. He's asking himself the big questions
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Speaker 1: about Puerto Rico. And then he starts reading about automobile
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Speaker 1: safety because he sees so many car crashes during his
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Speaker 1: time hitchhiking.
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Speaker 3: Huge shout out to to Mark Green, who wrote the
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Speaker 3: piece Nator then and now for the Nation back in
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Speaker 3: twenty fifteen.
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Speaker 2: You can find that online. I believe we may have
13:47
Speaker 2: gotten this from.
13:47
Speaker 3: EPSCO, so it might not be readily available. If you
13:50
Speaker 3: can get your hands on it worth a full read.
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Speaker 3: So remarkably, I imagine, despite all of his absences, it's like
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Speaker 3: a school marm. You know, you got too many absences.
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Speaker 3: He did graduate, correct, Yeah.
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Speaker 1: And he went to the YMCA. He was twenty nine
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Speaker 1: years old. He goes to the YMCA because he wants
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Speaker 1: to work on what he and Mark Green describe as
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Speaker 1: body rights. But again, you know, when you graduate from
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Speaker 1: an institution like this, people take you seriously. Doors open.
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Speaker 1: He becomes pretty quickly a consultant in the halls of power.
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Speaker 1: He is working with the Assistant Secretary of Labor for
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Speaker 1: the Kennedy administration. And the entire time he's doing this,
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Speaker 1: he's always bringing up highway safety.
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Speaker 2: It's like his hobby horse. And he later writes a
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Speaker 2: groundbreaking article also in the Nation called the safe Car
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Speaker 2: You can't buy That's.
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Speaker 3: Right, And you know he builds on what he learned
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Speaker 3: on his terms by the way, which I love. You know,
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Speaker 3: his education is Harvard education. He is using it, he's
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Speaker 3: weaponizing it and using in a way that perhaps the
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Speaker 3: administrators of such a university would not have intended, which
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Speaker 3: I love that he's almost like using their power, which
15:08
Speaker 3: you know, knowledge obviously is power, and this type of
15:10
Speaker 3: deep knowledge of the law incredibly powerful because it's something
15:14
Speaker 3: that just so many people don't possess, and he's building
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Speaker 3: on it in a way that is helping consumers.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's the idea, right.
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Speaker 1: He's not in this for a plum corporate gig that
15:27
Speaker 1: turns him into a millionaire necessarily. In fact, he builds
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Speaker 1: off his research from his time as a student and
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Speaker 1: a drifter, and he eventually gets a deal to write
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Speaker 1: a book called Unsafe at Any Speed that designed in
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Speaker 1: Dangers of the American Automobile. He actually writes this book
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Speaker 1: twice because when he got the publishing deal, he left
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Speaker 1: the only copy of the book in a cab. And
15:53
Speaker 1: you know how it is now, folks, if you ever
15:55
Speaker 1: use Lyft or uber and you leave something in there,
15:58
Speaker 1: it's still difficult to find it.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: A cab A cab in the nineteen sixties, you know
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Speaker 1: what I mean, that's not so funny.
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Speaker 3: It reminds me of the kind of weirdo fringe artist
16:08
Speaker 3: Daniel Johnston, who he didn't know about like tape duplication,
16:12
Speaker 3: so he would actually record his album every time he
16:15
Speaker 3: put it he gave it to somebody, he'd record it
16:18
Speaker 3: and then draw the cover every single time. That's obviously
16:20
Speaker 3: a little different, but I just think that level of
16:22
Speaker 3: scrappiness is super cool.
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Speaker 2: Yeah.
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Speaker 1: And he in this book, which publishes in nineteen sixty
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Speaker 1: five in November, he says, Look, the reason for most
16:32
Speaker 1: car crashes basically is not the driver. It's not human error.
16:36
Speaker 1: He says, the reason for most car crashes it's not
16:40
Speaker 1: the quote nut behind the wheel, but the nut in
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Speaker 1: the wheel. Because he's talking about the way the cars
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Speaker 1: are built and that they're being designed, in his opinion,
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Speaker 1: for style rather than for safety.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and this is in the sixties, right, Yeah. Yeah, So,
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Speaker 3: I mean, like again, we talked about the history of
16:58
Speaker 3: the automobile and the Model T and originally I think
17:01
Speaker 3: a lot of it was just about logistics, about creating
17:03
Speaker 3: something as cheaply and scalable as possible, but just safety
17:08
Speaker 3: wasn't as much of an issue at the beginning, there
17:10
Speaker 3: just weren't that many of these things and infrastructure, you know,
17:13
Speaker 3: would take time to follow. But as we all know,
17:16
Speaker 3: the law lags way behind, egregiously behind what is actually
17:22
Speaker 3: needed to keep people safe, whether it is in road
17:25
Speaker 3: laws or manufacturing sects.
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Speaker 1: Technology will always outpace legislation for good or for ill,
17:34
Speaker 1: and in this book he brings out which is worth
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Speaker 1: a read. And again he's a very talented author. And
17:41
Speaker 1: there are a lot of examples of automobile safety or
17:43
Speaker 1: lack thereof in this book. One example he really focuses
17:48
Speaker 1: on is the Chevy Corvare, especially the nineteen sixty to
17:52
Speaker 1: sixty three models. He calls this thing in the very
17:55
Speaker 1: beginning of the book, he calls this thing the one
17:58
Speaker 1: car accident.
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Speaker 3: Usually it takes two to tango right. But I think
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Speaker 3: he's referring to some issues with the handling. I guess
18:06
Speaker 3: the drive train.
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Speaker 1: I don't know.
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Speaker 3: I'm not a car expert of this vehicle. That was
18:11
Speaker 3: it was just real squirrely right. It could like easily
18:14
Speaker 3: spin out.
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Speaker 1: So if you've ever worked in any kind of group project,
18:20
Speaker 1: we all know that the idea you have at the
18:22
Speaker 1: beginning is not going to be the end result. Right
18:26
Speaker 1: when you're finally done, when you actually make the thing,
18:29
Speaker 1: you're gonna have modifications. And the guy who designed the
18:33
Speaker 1: Corvet ed Cole. He knew what he was doing. He
18:36
Speaker 1: was smart. He wanted the engine to be all aluminum.
18:40
Speaker 1: That's a lighter motor, and it's a little more expensive
18:42
Speaker 1: at the time. So the motor they actually do design
18:46
Speaker 1: is made of iron instead of aluminum, and that makes
18:48
Speaker 1: it a lot heavier.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, and shout out to Matt Chrissara from Popular Mechanics.
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Speaker 3: Now think about that publication, but there's some really really
18:58
Speaker 3: great writing and Popular Mechanics from his article. Remember when
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Speaker 3: Ralph Nader's expose of Chevrolet Corvet paved the way for
19:05
Speaker 3: better road safety. So, yeah, there was this kind of disconnect.
19:09
Speaker 3: That extra weight caused some issues with it being kind
19:13
Speaker 3: of front heavy, like you said, I mean heavy in general,
19:16
Speaker 3: but also just front heavy. So therefore there was sort
19:18
Speaker 3: of like a discrepancy in weight between the front and
19:22
Speaker 3: the back axles.
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Speaker 1: And there were other problems with the vehicle related to
19:28
Speaker 1: the axles, the suspension, things that would cause it to
19:31
Speaker 1: suddenly lose traction. You know how this may happen if
19:35
Speaker 1: you were ever at a red light on a rainy
19:38
Speaker 1: day or rainy evening, and then you push the gas
19:41
Speaker 1: and the tires sort of real quick. That's trying to
19:45
Speaker 1: get traction. And the corvet, because of various design flaws,
19:49
Speaker 1: was just not good at it. It was fun to drive,
19:53
Speaker 1: but it could have a lot of very dangerous problems.
19:57
Speaker 1: General Motors this is where we get to the iculous part.
20:01
Speaker 1: General Motors a very powerful company then and now they
20:05
Speaker 1: heard about Nader through the Grapevine Wall. So we contacted
20:09
Speaker 1: them directly multiple times, and they took it personally because
20:15
Speaker 1: at the time Nader wrote this book, he was it
20:19
Speaker 1: was a culmination point because there had already been more
20:21
Speaker 1: than one hundred lawsuits against Chevrolet for the corvat specifically, Yeah,
20:28
Speaker 1: not all from Nator.
20:29
Speaker 2: No, no, no. This was like a known problem.
20:32
Speaker 3: This is a source of litigation, and Nator was just
20:35
Speaker 3: kind of connecting the dots here.
20:36
Speaker 1: Right, And you can read more about this in a
20:39
Speaker 1: Great Time article from nineteen sixty six called Investigations Slight
20:45
Speaker 1: Spoiler in the title the Spies who were caught Cold.
20:48
Speaker 3: Snap also shout out you mentioned we mentioned car stuff earlier.
20:52
Speaker 2: I believe.
20:52
Speaker 3: I'm certain because I think I was the producer at
20:54
Speaker 3: the time. Y'all did a multi part series on the Corvet.
20:58
Speaker 1: Yes, multipart series on Corvet. Also a series about automotive recalls,
21:03
Speaker 1: which is a huge thing and car stuff. You know
21:05
Speaker 1: what I always liked about it is we dive into
21:08
Speaker 1: the history of some of some of this stuff totally.
21:11
Speaker 2: This is gonna be a little bit looser because GM
21:15
Speaker 2: behaves in a villainous way here and it's fun to talk.
21:18
Speaker 1: About He he is thirty two at this time, he's
21:23
Speaker 1: only thirty two years old, and General Motors decides he
21:27
Speaker 1: is not quite an existential threat, but someone who needs
21:33
Speaker 1: to be taken care of, So they hire a law
21:35
Speaker 1: firm out of Washington to handle things. Find us something
21:39
Speaker 1: on Ralph and he The law firm pays a guy
21:43
Speaker 1: named Vincent Gillen, not Vince Gilligan, different dude named Vincent Gillen.
21:49
Speaker 1: They pay him a little less than seven thousand dollars. Well,
21:51
Speaker 1: i'm our FBI guy, now a PI and they say,
21:55
Speaker 1: find whatever you can on this guy. Get us some
21:58
Speaker 1: like reputation brow material.
22:00
Speaker 3: Yeah, And he wrote a letter to I guess some
22:03
Speaker 3: of his contacts. I'm I'm not clear if they were
22:06
Speaker 3: connected to the FBI at any point in time, but
22:09
Speaker 3: he essentially had like subcontractors that he would use to
22:12
Speaker 3: like do some of his dirty work for him. And
22:14
Speaker 3: in the letter he said the following. Our job is
22:18
Speaker 3: to check Nator's life and current activities to determine what
22:21
Speaker 3: makes him tick, such as his real interest in safety,
22:24
Speaker 3: his supporters, if any of his politics, his marital status,
22:27
Speaker 3: his friends.
22:28
Speaker 2: His women, boys, etc.
22:31
Speaker 3: Drinking, dope jobs, in fact, all facets of his life.
22:35
Speaker 3: You could have just said that, buddy, Yeah, he's making
22:38
Speaker 3: it clear that they're after dirt. You know, this is
22:41
Speaker 3: not a learn more about thing or boys, you know,
22:44
Speaker 3: like drinking and dope. His marital status, right, does he
22:48
Speaker 3: having affairs? And so this group, Gillan and co. They
22:54
Speaker 3: do some really clever social engineering. They call sixty upwards
22:59
Speaker 3: of sixty and relatives of Ralph Nader and they spin
23:03
Speaker 3: a yarn. They say, we're doing a pre employment investigation.
23:07
Speaker 3: We're doing a background check. So his parents are Lebanese immigrants.
23:12
Speaker 3: They do stuff like trying to figure out if there's
23:14
Speaker 3: any anti Semitism in his family or in his personal beliefs.
23:19
Speaker 3: And then they said, he's thirty two years old, he's
23:23
Speaker 3: got a decent job. Why isn't he married? And this
23:26
Speaker 3: one's a little not apocryphal, but people don't agree on
23:30
Speaker 3: how this all went down. In at least two instances,
23:34
Speaker 3: Nater charges that Gillan tries to put him in compromising
23:39
Speaker 3: positions with women. He says, one girl, he basically says,
23:43
Speaker 3: they're trying to do honeypot traps on him. One girl
23:45
Speaker 3: comes to him at a drug store and for absolutely
23:48
Speaker 3: no apparent reason, out of the blue, she says, hey,
23:51
Speaker 3: come to my apartment, let's talk about foreign relations.
23:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty gross. And it goes even further.
23:57
Speaker 3: There's a second example of this type of tactic where
24:01
Speaker 3: a second girl is employed and asked him to help
24:04
Speaker 3: her move some furniture. Oh could you please help me
24:07
Speaker 3: with that? You a big strong man, And he didn't
24:11
Speaker 3: even bite like a little. I mean, frankly, it sounds
24:16
Speaker 3: kind of rude. You know, he should help help the
24:18
Speaker 3: young lady move the furniture if she needs help.
24:20
Speaker 2: But you know, yeah, he also knew he had a target.
24:22
Speaker 2: Now he's a wilely guy. It's sure he knows what's up.
24:25
Speaker 2: He's very shrewd.
24:27
Speaker 3: And he totally understands, probably largely from remember the game
24:32
Speaker 3: that he was laughing at back in Harvard. He knows
24:35
Speaker 3: the lengths that these types will go to. You know,
24:37
Speaker 3: he probably learned them from the best himself.
24:40
Speaker 1: And this all leads to him testifying at this hearing
24:44
Speaker 1: where a Senate subcommittee headed by a Connecticut Democrat named
24:48
Speaker 1: Abraham Ribikoff, which mentioned earlier, and this was investigating traffic safety.
24:54
Speaker 1: For the entire week leading up to these hearings, the
24:58
Speaker 1: private investigators followed him all around DC. They were literally
25:03
Speaker 1: doing the Cold War spy stuff, you know, some picturesome
25:06
Speaker 1: guy and a fedora and a trench coat peeking around
25:09
Speaker 1: the corner.
25:10
Speaker 2: Where's he going? And they got caught.
25:13
Speaker 1: They got kicked out by guards at the Senate Office
25:16
Speaker 1: building who said, hey, you guys are walking around like spies.
25:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, knock it off, get right out of town. What
25:24
Speaker 2: get a different hat? At least you're wearing a spy hat.
25:27
Speaker 3: Yeah, And you're clearly wearing those like mirrored spy gear shades,
25:31
Speaker 3: the ones where you can see around knas.
25:34
Speaker 1: And they even reference this in the hearing. Ribikoff says,
25:38
Speaker 1: there's too much snooping going on, and he says, you know, Natter,
25:43
Speaker 1: you can feel pretty proud. They put you through the
25:45
Speaker 1: mill and they haven't found a damn thing wrong with you.
25:48
Speaker 1: They're saying that this guy actually doesn't have dirt. He
25:52
Speaker 1: just means what he says.
25:54
Speaker 3: I love referring to like private investigators and detectives as
25:57
Speaker 3: gum shoes. I always think of wearing the world this.
26:00
Speaker 3: Carmen san Diego, you know where the chief She's like, okay,
26:03
Speaker 3: gum shoes.
26:03
Speaker 2: That's yeh, yeah, yeah, that's great. Also, Dix was fun.
26:07
Speaker 3: I watched seven the other night with my girlfriend and
26:10
Speaker 3: there's a scene where the swat team kicks in the
26:12
Speaker 3: door of this, you know, one of the victim's houses,
26:15
Speaker 3: and they're.
26:15
Speaker 2: Like, Dix, Dix, you gotta come in and see this.
26:18
Speaker 3: Yeah.
26:19
Speaker 2: Yeah, No one says that anymore they should.
26:22
Speaker 1: So Nader finally gets to testify despite all this, all
26:27
Speaker 1: these attempts to destroy his character, and he's really good
26:33
Speaker 1: as a public speaker. He's calm, he is sometimes a
26:38
Speaker 1: little funny, which goes a long way. One journalist called
26:42
Speaker 1: him a quote machine gun with facts.
26:45
Speaker 2: Jesus rat a tat tat.
26:48
Speaker 3: He says I'm responsible for my actions, but who's responsible
26:51
Speaker 3: for those of general motors?
26:53
Speaker 2: And he says, you know who.
26:55
Speaker 1: We'll paraphrase here, but he says, Look, if you're an individual,
26:58
Speaker 1: you lose your integrity once. If you're a corporation, you
27:02
Speaker 1: lose your integrity all the time, and you never encounter
27:06
Speaker 1: consequences for it. I'm paraphrasing there, but that's what he's
27:09
Speaker 1: pointing out. And some folks from mainly from the right
27:14
Speaker 1: side of politics, they try to say, this guy's just
27:19
Speaker 1: out flogging his book. He just wants to make money
27:22
Speaker 1: selling his book Unsafe at any Speed.
27:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, the honorable Carl Curtis of Nebraska.
27:28
Speaker 3: I don't think they talk like that in Nebraska, he implies,
27:31
Speaker 3: just as much, to which Robert Kennedy gives Nator the
27:36
Speaker 3: chance to say what his real motivations are, to which
27:40
Speaker 3: Nator responds, very cromulently.
27:45
Speaker 2: Is that okay?
27:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, great, he says, because I happen to have
27:49
Speaker 3: a scale of priorities that leads me to engage in
27:52
Speaker 3: the prevention of cruelty to humans.
27:55
Speaker 2: My motives are.
27:55
Speaker 3: Constantly inquired into. Is it wrong to talk about defect
28:00
Speaker 3: of cars diseased meats. That's a that's a mouthful corporate cheating.
28:05
Speaker 3: Is it really distasteful that a person cares enough about
28:08
Speaker 3: issues like these to dedicate his life to changing them?
28:12
Speaker 3: That's a real what's the word when it's the question
28:15
Speaker 3: that really doesn't have an answer? Or yeah, yeah, so historical,
28:19
Speaker 3: that's the rhetorical. Obviously those things are great. That seems
28:23
Speaker 3: like a really good thing to dedicate your life.
28:25
Speaker 1: To, and that should be something with which all members
28:28
Speaker 1: of the Senate agree because that's why you're supposed to
28:31
Speaker 1: go into public office, right to fight for greater good.
28:34
Speaker 1: So this gets a lot of coverage, The story, as
28:37
Speaker 1: we would say these days, goes viral, and ultimately Nader
28:42
Speaker 1: sues GM. They settle out of court for four hundred
28:46
Speaker 1: and twenty five thousand dollars in twenty twenty three money
28:51
Speaker 1: that's around that's a little less than four million, So
28:54
Speaker 1: it's a big, big win, and Nader's attorney says this
28:58
Speaker 1: is the biggest amount ever paid as damages for invasion
29:02
Speaker 1: of privacy because they were able to prove that chain
29:05
Speaker 1: a coman and trace trace back those gum shoes and
29:08
Speaker 1: those Fedora rock and spies all the way back to
29:11
Speaker 1: General Motors, and essentially he made the Corvet incredibly unpopular.
29:18
Speaker 1: And there's a great Politico article about this from a
29:20
Speaker 1: few years back by Andrew Glass says about this moment
29:24
Speaker 1: in history. He sank the Corvet by nineteen sixty nine.
29:29
Speaker 1: Just a few years later, GM stops production entirely.
29:33
Speaker 3: I mean, essentially, they were trying to put out a
29:35
Speaker 3: small car, you know, that would be affordable to consumers
29:39
Speaker 3: and obviously sell a gazillion of them. But they cut
29:42
Speaker 3: a lot of corners to make that happen, and Nader
29:44
Speaker 3: pointed that out, and so they had to basically go
29:47
Speaker 3: back to the drawing board.
29:48
Speaker 2: How dare he right?
29:50
Speaker 1: I mean that expense alone is far more than in
29:54
Speaker 1: that settlement.
29:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, way more.
30:03
Speaker 1: The US public is incensed about this, and they are
30:07
Speaker 1: increasingly on Major's side. His actions directly lead to the
30:12
Speaker 1: creation of what we call the National Highway Traffic Safety
30:16
Speaker 1: Association the NHTSA, and over the next half a century,
30:22
Speaker 1: this organization has been in charge of auto safety. They're
30:27
Speaker 1: the ones who decide when a recall is going to occur.
30:29
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's again, this is like, what are we talking here?
30:32
Speaker 3: This is late sixties now almost in the seventies. Yeah,
30:35
Speaker 3: nineteen sixty nine when they stop production. It wasn't until
30:39
Speaker 3: this point in history that we have an organization, a
30:42
Speaker 3: government you know, sanctioned organization that is looking out for
30:47
Speaker 3: the safety of consumers, which.
30:49
Speaker 2: Is crazy because people have been driving for a while. Yeah,
30:52
Speaker 2: how long?
30:52
Speaker 3: What are we talking here? Sorry, I'm totally brain farting on.
30:55
Speaker 3: Like when the first car came.
30:57
Speaker 1: Out, Well, we're thinking you could think of stuff like
30:59
Speaker 1: the late eighteen ninety Yeah, that's when Henry Ford builds
31:03
Speaker 1: his first car. But then you know, it mainstreams after
31:07
Speaker 1: that into the early nineteen hundreds, and the problem is
31:12
Speaker 1: these cars are getting faster and faster.
31:13
Speaker 3: That's right, and there and and no one is there
31:16
Speaker 3: to get people to literally pump the brakes.
31:19
Speaker 2: Would you say, no one's at the wheel? I would
31:20
Speaker 2: say so, I would say both of those tests.
31:22
Speaker 1: So this this is a good thing. This is inarguably
31:25
Speaker 1: a good thing. Over time, this one organization reduces the
31:31
Speaker 1: rate of deaths per mile driven by eighty percent.
31:36
Speaker 2: That's insane. I mean, that's that's incredible.
31:39
Speaker 3: And there's an analysis from the Center for Auto Safety
31:43
Speaker 3: that determined that this saved more than three point five
31:48
Speaker 3: million lives. I mean, we know how even today we
31:51
Speaker 3: you know, living here in Atlanta, we know how many
31:53
Speaker 3: people die in traffic accidents. It's still an incredibly dangerous proposition,
31:59
Speaker 3: even with all of these oversights.
32:01
Speaker 1: Yeah, he is up there in the story of good
32:04
Speaker 1: guys in the world of cars. In my opinion, he's
32:07
Speaker 1: up there with Neil's Bolin, no relation. He's the dude
32:10
Speaker 1: who invented the three point seat belt. So that guy
32:14
Speaker 1: alone has saved a well over a billion lives by now,
32:18
Speaker 1: and Nader at this point, Nader could probably rest on
32:23
Speaker 1: his laurels. He went against the goliath and he won.
32:29
Speaker 2: But he doesn't.
32:30
Speaker 1: Instead of instead of, you know, retiring from public life
32:33
Speaker 1: and just hanging out at the family restaurant in Connecticut.
32:37
Speaker 2: This is step one, right, you know, in a storied career.
32:42
Speaker 3: You know, this is the perfect example of a guy
32:44
Speaker 3: who puts his money where his mouth is, you know,
32:46
Speaker 3: and he literally takes the money that he made during
32:48
Speaker 3: this legal victory and started an activist agency called the
32:52
Speaker 3: Center for Study of Responsive Law. Once again, very pithy
32:57
Speaker 3: right there in the title. We need law that responds
33:01
Speaker 3: to the needs of people.
33:03
Speaker 2: That's right.
33:03
Speaker 1: And so he is the progenitor of what we call
33:06
Speaker 1: the consumer movement or consumer advocacy movement. He says, let's
33:10
Speaker 1: talk about nuclear power, let's talk about the safety of
33:13
Speaker 1: oil pipelines. Let's get back to food and drug safety,
33:16
Speaker 1: because I think The Jungle was a good book, you know.
33:20
Speaker 1: And then of course airlines, pollution, you name it. He
33:24
Speaker 1: is fighting what he sees as the good fight. And
33:28
Speaker 1: the list is incredibly long. You can actually name almost
33:35
Speaker 1: any modern consumer safety thing, and he went to bat
33:41
Speaker 1: for it.
33:41
Speaker 2: That's right.
33:41
Speaker 3: The Markereen piece in the Nation lists them, in no
33:45
Speaker 3: particular order, vastly things like healthcare, smoking, freedom of information laws,
33:51
Speaker 3: laws regarding multinationals, educational testing services, occupational hazards and the like.
33:58
Speaker 3: You know, rights of workers, things like that, specs surrounding
34:03
Speaker 3: the construction of homes.
34:05
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And he says, I want to own the
34:09
Speaker 1: means of production, at least in the legal sense. So
34:12
Speaker 1: I'm going to run for president. And this led to
34:15
Speaker 1: him being somewhat of a divisive figure in the American left.
34:19
Speaker 1: In two thousand, as we mentioned at the top of
34:21
Speaker 1: this show, as a candidate for the Green Party, he
34:23
Speaker 1: got about one hundred thousand votes in Florida. The Democratic
34:27
Speaker 1: candidate Al Gore lost, according to the Supreme Court, by
34:31
Speaker 1: five hundred and thirty seven votes, and the Democratic Party
34:37
Speaker 1: got really really mad about this. They had fought to
34:41
Speaker 1: keep him off the ballot. And I remember when this
34:44
Speaker 1: occurs same you would hear people say, you know, a
34:47
Speaker 1: vote for the Green Party is a vote for the GOP.
34:51
Speaker 3: Well, and you could argue that there's some truth to that,
34:55
Speaker 3: you know, just in terms of you know, if we're
34:57
Speaker 3: talking about what's right, you know, one thing, but we
35:01
Speaker 3: live within a system that isn't always about what's right,
35:04
Speaker 3: and you kind of have.
35:05
Speaker 2: To choose between.
35:06
Speaker 3: You know, it's a two party system basically, so when
35:08
Speaker 3: you have this third party thrown in there, it just
35:10
Speaker 3: can kind of throw things out of whack and it
35:13
Speaker 3: can take votes away from the actual real candidate.
35:18
Speaker 2: Let's be honest. You know, Nator was never going to win.
35:22
Speaker 3: He was running almost more as like a symbol, you know,
35:26
Speaker 3: almost as more of like taking a stance.
35:28
Speaker 1: It's similar to that conversation you had with the sociologist
35:31
Speaker 1: back at the family restaurant. He was hoping that his
35:34
Speaker 1: agenda could catch fire, you know what I mean. It's
35:37
Speaker 1: like if you are playing a team sport. If you're
35:40
Speaker 1: playing football, a goal doesn't mean that the entire team
35:45
Speaker 1: hits the finish line, right, And he's saying, if I
35:47
Speaker 1: can just pass this ball of policy on, then my
35:51
Speaker 1: team will win. And there's a great two thousand and
35:53
Speaker 1: four Guardian profile of Nator by Julian Border that gets
35:58
Speaker 1: into this controversy because people were accusing him of falling
36:02
Speaker 1: in love with his own magic, of being like Merlin
36:05
Speaker 1: in a Connecticut Yankee goes to King Arthur's court, which,
36:08
Speaker 1: now that I think about it, is even more appropriate.
36:11
Speaker 1: They said, Look, this guy is just super into himself.
36:13
Speaker 1: He doesn't understand how the real world works, and he
36:18
Speaker 1: is maybe becoming a bit of a zealot, a bit
36:20
Speaker 1: of a demagogue, you could say.
36:22
Speaker 3: The same people have said the same things about like
36:24
Speaker 3: Bernie Sanders, you know, sure, yeah, and then he's a
36:27
Speaker 3: similar social justice kind of figure. You know, throughout his
36:30
Speaker 3: career he's done very similar things.
36:33
Speaker 1: And Nader is aware of this. He told The New
36:35
Speaker 1: York Times, we lose to win eventually. That is the
36:39
Speaker 1: story of social justice. You have to be willing to
36:41
Speaker 1: lose and fight and lose, and fight and lose. And
36:44
Speaker 1: fight until the agenda is one. But a lot of
36:49
Speaker 1: people are saying, hey, man, stop making us lose.
36:52
Speaker 2: Though.
36:53
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean again, to your point, Ben, it's less
36:58
Speaker 3: about winning than it is about just gradually infiltrating the
37:04
Speaker 3: consciousness and the rhetoric of the actual party in power.
37:09
Speaker 3: So but you know, you could argue that there are
37:11
Speaker 3: ways to go about that without kind of stacking the
37:15
Speaker 3: deck against them. So again, maybe I sound like I'm
37:17
Speaker 3: saying that Nator shouldn't have run. I really don't have
37:20
Speaker 3: a dog in that fight. I just am trying to
37:22
Speaker 3: look at both sides and see maybe there are other
37:24
Speaker 3: ways of going about this that wouldn't have been quite
37:26
Speaker 3: as divisive. But you know, extreme times call for extreme measures.
37:30
Speaker 3: So I mean, maybe that's how he was looking out.
37:31
Speaker 3: The only way to truly get the other side to
37:33
Speaker 3: pay attention is to show him that there show them
37:36
Speaker 3: that there are people that are thinking like him, and
37:38
Speaker 3: that he can get enough votes to make them realize
37:41
Speaker 3: maybe we should pivot a little because.
37:42
Speaker 2: Isn't Gore kind of an environmentalist as well?
37:46
Speaker 3: Sure? I mean, he obviously made those unpop what it
37:49
Speaker 3: was it called an inconvenient truth films? You know, and
37:52
Speaker 3: not to mention inventing the Internet.
37:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks.
37:55
Speaker 1: Al Nator is also kind of moving the over window
38:00
Speaker 1: what is acceptable to be discussed in the public sphere
38:03
Speaker 1: and what is prioritized in those discussions. So while he
38:07
Speaker 1: may be a divisive figure, actually he definitely is a
38:10
Speaker 1: divisive figure.
38:11
Speaker 2: Right.
38:11
Speaker 1: People have different opinions about him and about his actions
38:15
Speaker 1: when running for president. All that aside, there is no
38:19
Speaker 1: way around it. Without Ralph Nader, there would not have
38:23
Speaker 1: been the consumer rights movement that exists in the United
38:27
Speaker 1: States today.
38:28
Speaker 3: Yeah, And speaking of putting his money where his mouth is,
38:31
Speaker 3: I mean, he still stands by all of these things
38:34
Speaker 3: that he has put forth in his policies, in his politics,
38:39
Speaker 3: and his rhetoric, and in his activism for all these years.
38:42
Speaker 3: He was asked in an interview a handful of years
38:45
Speaker 3: ago if he had ever owned a car, and he says,
38:49
Speaker 3: a forty nine student Baker was the last car I owned.
38:52
Speaker 3: That was the car that if you looked at it,
38:54
Speaker 3: you couldn't tell the front from the rear. I don't
38:57
Speaker 3: have a car. You have to take care of them,
38:59
Speaker 3: figure out where to park castle with the insurance gouging,
39:02
Speaker 3: look out for recalls, I use public transportation or walk
39:05
Speaker 3: when I can. Cars are a nuisance.
39:08
Speaker 2: I mean, I get it.
39:11
Speaker 1: They're also cool and go room room right, right, there's
39:13
Speaker 1: also that, And you know, the US, there's no secret
39:17
Speaker 1: is a car culture the vast majority of the country.
39:20
Speaker 1: You know, you kind of need a car to get
39:23
Speaker 1: reliable transit. That does not always have to be the case.
39:26
Speaker 1: That may change in the future. But with all this
39:30
Speaker 1: we can say Ralph Nader took on GM anyone.
39:35
Speaker 2: It's right.
39:35
Speaker 3: There's one amazing final quote from another interview where he
39:40
Speaker 3: was asked about any of his guilty pleasures that he
39:43
Speaker 3: might have. The interviewer said, do you secretly love Fast
39:46
Speaker 3: and Furious movies? And I'm sure Ralph dinner is like
39:48
Speaker 3: what's that? He responded, I do like organic ice cream.
39:54
Speaker 3: But no, I don't watch many movies because there's so
39:56
Speaker 3: much to do that occupies almost all my waking time.
39:59
Speaker 3: In fact, I don't I don't even look at TV anymore.
40:01
Speaker 3: I listened to NPR and read the newspapers, the Post
40:03
Speaker 3: and the Times. I'm completely a print person. I don't
40:06
Speaker 3: have a computer. I use an underwood typewriter. I don't
40:10
Speaker 3: have email or the Internet because I want to get
40:14
Speaker 3: work done and not deal with all the crap.
40:17
Speaker 1: It's kind of like asking Gnoam Chomsky or Howard Zen
40:22
Speaker 1: to name their favorite reality TV program. They're gonna say,
40:26
Speaker 1: what is I do?
40:27
Speaker 2: Regular reality?
40:29
Speaker 3: Weirdly, though, you know what I saw the other day,
40:31
Speaker 3: Noam Chomsky has one of those masterclass things. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,
40:35
Speaker 3: and he looks he looks like a deer in headlights
40:36
Speaker 3: where he's clearly doing the part that's just designed for
40:39
Speaker 3: the promo, where he's really I will talk about the
40:42
Speaker 3: most pressing issues facing America today and then the other
40:45
Speaker 3: parts he's clearly just riffing like he does and it
40:47
Speaker 3: looks very natural. But yeah, I was still a little
40:50
Speaker 3: taken aback by it. I'm not gonna lie.
40:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's trying to get the message out there, you
40:55
Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, and that's what he's advocating for.
40:58
Speaker 1: Plus he is ninety four years old, Chomsky. He is
41:03
Speaker 1: eighty nine years old. Ok, so spry as ever imperially slim.
41:09
Speaker 1: Thanks for helping fewer people die in car accidents, and
41:13
Speaker 1: thanks for making the consumer movement. You may not agree
41:16
Speaker 1: with the guy's politics necessarily, but I think we can
41:20
Speaker 1: all agree that saving lives is a good thing to do.
41:24
Speaker 2: I bet it doesn't even have a smartphone. No, why
41:27
Speaker 2: would he have a smartphone? That guy's landline all. I
41:29
Speaker 2: bet he has like rotary doll.
41:31
Speaker 1: Oh, he might have like a Nokia the indestructible flip phone. Sure,
41:34
Speaker 1: he's got like three numbers brick.
41:36
Speaker 2: Yeah.
41:37
Speaker 3: I think he listens to podcasts now does doesn't have
41:40
Speaker 3: time too much to occupying all.
41:41
Speaker 2: Of his waking hours.
41:42
Speaker 1: If we print out a transcript and mail it to him, yeah,
41:45
Speaker 1: it'd be interesting to see what he says.
41:47
Speaker 2: That would be cool. I think you consumer fans of We.
41:49
Speaker 1: Are fans of Ralph Nader for saving lives, and we
41:53
Speaker 1: are also fans of ridiculous historical stories. I gotta say too,
41:59
Speaker 1: I've driven Chevrolet's I love Monte Carlos. They were just
42:03
Speaker 1: in the wrong on this one.
42:05
Speaker 2: Oh yeah yeah.
42:06
Speaker 1: And with this, we're going to hit the road with
42:08
Speaker 1: our safety belts on. Thanks Ralph and all three points,
42:12
Speaker 1: all three points shout out Nills Bulin, and we can't
42:16
Speaker 1: wait for a very special episode we have coming out later.
42:21
Speaker 1: We have a lot of tangents in trivia and things
42:24
Speaker 1: that don't quite make it into episodes when we're recording.
42:27
Speaker 1: So we are going to do our first ever clip show.
42:31
Speaker 1: I think we can called it clip Yeah, it's yeah, it's.
42:34
Speaker 2: It'll be a clip show of a type.
42:36
Speaker 1: Yeah. I think the way I've described it off aras
42:39
Speaker 1: it'll be a Matroshka doll of segues. So do tune
42:42
Speaker 1: in for that. Thanks as always to our super producer
42:46
Speaker 1: mister Max Williams, Thanks to our research associate doctor z.
42:50
Speaker 1: Thanks to our special off air guest Alex Alex are
42:55
Speaker 1: you over there?
42:56
Speaker 2: Hey? All right?
42:58
Speaker 1: Hello tech doing a live show, And of course thanks
43:02
Speaker 1: to our own pal Jonathan Strickland aka the Quist who else?
43:05
Speaker 2: Oh man?
43:06
Speaker 3: Alex Williams whose are you very much a Ralph Nader
43:09
Speaker 3: esque type figure, at least in his nomadic existence. He
43:12
Speaker 3: loves organic he does love organic ice cream and hitching
43:16
Speaker 3: hitching a ride here good thanks.
43:18
Speaker 2: To Chris frosciotis here in spirit.
43:19
Speaker 3: He's Jeff Coates doing all kinds of crazy yoga poses
43:22
Speaker 3: out in the world.
43:23
Speaker 1: Just how her new book come out.
43:25
Speaker 2: That's incredible.
43:26
Speaker 3: Yeah, congrats and thanks to you, Ben, Thanks to you
43:29
Speaker 3: a little bit of a Ralph Nader ask figure yourself.
43:31
Speaker 2: Zoom zoom zoom. We'll see you next time, folks.
43:40
Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
43:44
Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.