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Guest Hypnotist Cheryl Elman on the Elman Legacy · The Hypnotist

0:05
Welcome to The Hypnotist, the show that gives you inside
0:09
access to cutting edge hypnosis with real clients facing genuine
0:13
issues. Brought to you by the
0:14
Hypnotherapist, demanded by celebrities, CEOs and even
0:18
royalty Adam Cox. These recordings took place live
0:22
from Adam's clinic in London's world famous Harley Street.
0:29
So get yourself comfortable and enjoy today's episode of The
0:33
Hypnotist. Hi, it's Adam here.
0:40
And you're about to listen to a guest hypnotist episode of The
0:44
Hypnotist where I speak to Cheryl Ellman, who is the
0:49
daughter-in-law of the great Dave Ellman and her husband
0:54
Larry Ellman, also very influential in hypnosis.
0:59
And Cheryl and Larry travelled the world to take the legacy of
1:05
Dave Ellman an impact even more people.
1:07
And what you're about to listen to is a conversation between
1:11
myself and Cheryl Ellman, who I met at the Mid America
1:15
Conference in Chicago. That was many, many months ago,
1:18
but we finally got a chance to have a chat about Dave Elman,
1:23
the legacy of the Elman's and what she focuses on and her
1:29
passion. So I think you'll find this
1:31
episode quite interesting if you are interested in the history of
1:36
hypnosis and how it's evolved. So relax and enjoy this session.
1:44
Hi, it's Adam here and welcome to the Hypnotist.
1:47
And on today's episode of the Hypnotist, I Am Not Your
1:51
Hypnotist. We have a guest hypnotist.
1:53
And I'm very privileged and honored to have Cheryl Ellman as
1:57
the guest hypnotist today. Welcome, Cheryl.
2:01
Oh, thank you for having me here, Adam.
2:03
It was such a pleasure to meet you very briefly when we're in
2:06
Chicago, but I'm excited about being here today.
2:10
Absolutely. Now everyone has a different
2:13
story about how they discovered hypnosis, how they got into the
2:16
world of hypnosis. And some people listening has
2:22
I've already picked up on the fact that I just said Cheryl
2:24
Ellman and they'll be like, oh, I've heard that name before.
2:28
But first of all, let's hear about you.
2:30
So how did you get into this world of of hypnosis?
2:36
I I actually was a heavy smoker and back 16 years before I
2:44
became a hypnotist, I got, I wish I could remember the
2:49
hypnotist's name. It was in Manhattan and I got
2:51
hypnotized to stop smoking and I never did again.
2:55
I had done it once before in a Group 1 down in Florida and I
3:00
didn't smoke. I didn't smoke, but then I was
3:02
like holding somebody's cigarette or putting them in my
3:06
I played with it. I was like playing on the tracks
3:08
as they would say, you know, in in addiction terms.
3:11
And so I picked it up again. So when I did it this time in
3:15
New York, I just never, I used the concepts my ex-husband was
3:19
in a A and I was in Al Anon and I was using a lot of those
3:24
concepts and just was able to just never pick it up again.
3:28
And so I, I was 2 to 3 packs a day.
3:32
And so I knew it worked. Now, how did I get into
3:36
hypnosis? I I actually, I was dating my
3:42
husband, Larry Elman, and I knew that Lawry's dad was a radio
3:48
star and had been in vaudeville, but I didn't really know much
3:52
about, I didn't know about the hypnosis.
3:55
And he was going to a nutritionist to lose weight.
3:59
And she asked, you know, who does he eat with usually?
4:03
And he said, with me. So she said bring because Larry,
4:07
Larry was a rocket scientist. He was an aeronautical engineer
4:12
and retired Air Force Colonel. But when she said, you know
4:15
something about protein, he said, what's a protein?
4:19
He just didn't know anything about nutrition.
4:21
So interestingly enough, so she she told him that his mother had
4:29
a face or that was the one thing you know, that if if it if it
4:36
had a mother, it was or if it has a face, it, it's usually a
4:40
protein. So she had me come and while I
4:44
was there, she asked him if he would hypnotize her.
4:48
And I said, what do you mean? And, and he had a previous time
4:55
he had noticed when he went to her office down in, I think it
4:59
was Boca or Del Rey down in Florida, He saw, I think it was
5:04
a certificate from Jerry Kind, you know, and, and, and he was
5:09
looking at it, you know, the hypnosis certificate.
5:12
And and she's looking at him. She goes Dave Ellman, Larry
5:17
Ellman and she goes any, any relation.
5:21
So now she knew that and she had studied hypnosis, but she was at
5:26
that point she was had had some surgery on her foot and leg and
5:32
she was a competitive ballroom dancer and and she wants to go
5:37
back to dancing, but she had a fear of hurting herself.
5:41
So so they send me like a child. I was sent out of the room after
5:46
the session and and he hypnotized her when she came out
5:52
and it helped her. She did go back to it and I just
5:55
looked at her. I said what was that all about?
5:57
So that you know, so he had a little conversation about his
6:00
lad, his dad being in hypnosis and, and we didn't do anything
6:05
with that. We were running around.
6:08
I had a mobile arts and craft company and we would go and work
6:12
with anywhere from 10 to 400 kids at once, painting and doing
6:17
sand art and textile art. And when I married Larry and he
6:20
was telling me stories because he was the storyteller, I said,
6:24
wait, I don't want to be your only audience.
6:27
So I called all. It was right before the
6:29
Centennial of the Wright Brothers and I called all these
6:33
the different camp directors because I was booking the
6:37
summers and said we have a new division called 100 Years of
6:41
Flight. So I got him into teaching and
6:46
we'd bring a little travelling museum and back then we were
6:50
schlepping along A1 of the overhead projectors, you know,
6:55
that we would use. Now it's so easy with your
6:59
laptop and just a, or your phone and just a little screen thing.
7:04
So, so then we were doing that. It wasn't till we were up here
7:11
in about 2008, Sean Michael Andrews was was a big Dave
7:17
Ellman fan. And for those of you who do not
7:20
know, Dave Ellman is my father-in-law and he was in
7:25
vaudeville and before that his father was a hobbyist in
7:29
hypnosis. And so Dave had actually watched
7:34
him. Dave was about 6 and he had
7:36
watched Jake hypnotize this girl for stuttering.
7:42
And when she was in hypnosis, she stopped stuttering.
7:45
But when she came out, she stuttered again.
7:48
So he's going this isn't any good.
7:50
And he sort of dismissed it. But at the same time, you know,
7:54
Jake just hadn't learned how to do post hypnotic suggestions.
7:59
So when when Dave, when Jake was dying of cancer a stage, we
8:07
don't know exactly which hypnotist came along.
8:10
Kilborne thought it was one person and then people said no,
8:15
it couldn't be. So we don't know.
8:16
Somebody came to the house out in Fargo, ND and hypnotized Dave
8:22
and not being able to get out of his out of his bed for for weeks
8:30
now. He he was able to get up, play
8:32
with the kids and he took a train ride to to pick up monies
8:37
owed from different customers and he unfortunately he died on
8:43
the trip back. His wife Lena always said if he
8:46
only waited a few more minutes he would have switched trains
8:50
and she would have been able to bring his body back because he
8:52
was in a different state. So I guess Jake was buried
8:56
somewhere out there. So Dave was so impressed with
9:02
how his what a change it made in his father that when his father
9:07
died, he took over all his father's books, everything to do
9:13
with psychology and hypnosis and stuff.
9:15
Both of them, actually all three of the Elman men there are, were
9:21
avid readers. As I mentioned to you, my
9:23
husband has 23 book bookcases and that's not including the two
9:28
that we have on hypnosis. That's his aviation history and
9:33
his world history bookcases and and he actually dissolved his
9:38
library a few times, so I can't imagine what it would be like.
9:43
Thousands of books. So going back, what?
9:45
What were you saying? Thousands of books, it sounds
9:48
like. Yeah, very well read, very
9:50
knowledgeable, a lot of wisdom. Yeah, always, always.
9:53
I think it was more frustrating for him at the end when he
9:56
didn't have the energy to. When he would try to read, he,
10:00
he couldn't keep his mind, you know, focused on it and that,
10:04
that that really bothered him because he did love to read.
10:09
So Sean Michael Andrews came to interview Larry and they, I, I,
10:14
I tried to feed them, you know, good Jewish wife.
10:18
We were going to have breakfast. We never got to at lunch.
10:21
And finally we had Linner. I went down and, and while I was
10:25
down there, Sean Michael Andrews with my hand to the table.
10:28
And then finally when he released it, I went and he stuck
10:31
it to my head and I went, I want to do this.
10:34
And, and I knew it worked because I had stopped smoking
10:38
and I was fascinated by it. So I, I got certified by Sean
10:43
and Larry took the class with me as a good review because Larry
10:48
used to attend his parents classes and, and, and so this
10:55
way he got to spend time with his parents and he took the
10:58
course. It was like a nine, it's a 10
11:01
week course and he took it three times.
11:03
But they never let him come to lesson 8 and because it had to
11:09
do with sex issues and so when so he was never allowed to go to
11:16
session 8. And they taught all doctors and
11:19
dentists. So that's how I, that's how I
11:23
got into hypnosis. And the first time in 2009, that
11:28
was in 2008, 2009, Sean Michael Andrews had told NGH about
11:36
finding Larry and said that they really do want him to come and
11:39
speak and, and we've been speaking ever since.
11:44
So as of today we had taught 17 countries physically and some of
11:51
them two, 3-4 times, been taught in England four times I think it
11:55
was. And, and we were supposed to
11:58
when COVID hit, we were going to do 8 countries that year.
12:00
We were going to do auk tour of Wales, Scotland, England,
12:08
Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland and Ireland and that got
12:12
cancelled and we were going to be in New Zealand, Australia and
12:17
I was going to attend a conference and speak in on sleep
12:22
talk for children in Vietnam and all that got cancelled.
12:26
So yeah. So that's what got me into it
12:30
and I have loved it. I love working with people and
12:37
so yeah. And I would say Dave Elman is,
12:45
is what I would consider part of the the second golden age of
12:50
hypnosis. If we, if we look very early
12:52
hypnosis or what we kind of thought of hypnosis like mesma
12:57
and maybe braid and that kind of stuff.
12:59
That was kind of like the first golden age.
13:02
But it was definitely Ellman and and Ericsson that that really
13:06
kind of took this thing that we call hypnosis and kind of made
13:10
it credible. And you mentioned kind of
13:13
doctors and dentists. And I, I still don't think we
13:17
really comprehend the level of impact that was made during that
13:21
period. And I don't think hypnotherapy
13:23
is a as a kind of profession with the credibility that it has
13:27
would be the way that it is if it wasn't for people like
13:31
Hellman, you know, back then. Yeah.
13:36
What happened was Dave, when he left Fargo, he was in vaudeville
13:41
and he did stage hypnosis along with playing sax, violin.
13:46
He was did comedy, Jewish comedy, you know, they would do
13:51
skits and sing. And so, you know, vaudeville
13:54
troops, you had to do multiple things, you know, and so he
13:59
would do the hypnosis. And what he did was he had
14:03
developed using his father's books and stuff, he read
14:10
Hypoliti Bernheim. Now Hypoliti Bernheim wrote that
14:17
the long each time you went into hypnosis, you went deeper and
14:22
quicker. And so Dave went to a an
14:27
ophthalmologist in town, eye doctor, I don't know if they had
14:31
those specialties back then and asked why was it that with
14:34
hypnosis so much had to do with the eyes?
14:38
And, and he explained that, you know, we being hunters and
14:43
gatherers, you know, our eyes on a natural basis would, would
14:47
dart all the time. It's so when we would do
14:50
fixation with our eyes, it tires our eyes.
14:54
And that was part of the reason so much had to do with the eyes
14:58
in, in hypnosis. So he started thinking he and
15:02
he's going, well, if every time you go and hypnotize somebody,
15:07
they go in deeper and faster, well, why can't you, instead of
15:12
having them come back next week and the week after, why can't
15:16
you just go and send them out to the waiting room and have them
15:19
sit there and bring them back and do it again?
15:22
And, and then he started playing with the idea, well, instead of
15:26
sending him out to the waiting room, why not just take him up
15:31
and down and up and down and up and down?
15:34
And he called that three trips to Bernheim.
15:38
And, and this was the basis of of the Dave Elman induction,
15:44
what we call the Dave Elman induction.
15:46
And he called 3 trips to Bernheim.
15:50
It's interesting because in the recordings, one of the he
15:53
mentions doing it five times, which is interesting because
15:56
Mike Mandel up in Canada teaches it to do it five times and and
16:02
then he called it the three trips to Berndheim.
16:05
So whether it's three or five, whatever it is, if you have
16:08
somebody and they're already deep, can you do 1?
16:11
Can you do 2? Yes.
16:12
It's not like it's not written in stone.
16:16
It's a the Dave Elman induction is a process of like 6 steps and
16:22
and you can, if you read his book and his book is 350 some
16:27
odd pages with the index and everything that book, maybe 30
16:32
pages is actually on the induction and it's not always
16:35
done exactly the same. So if you gather some good
16:39
patter, you know you're going to.
16:42
I, on purpose, did not memorize it as a memorized induction
16:49
because I'm a pattern person. So if I were to learn a piano
16:54
piece and I memorized it, if I were playing it and there I was
17:00
playing it and all the sudden I lost my place, I couldn't just
17:04
pick it up. If I didn't have the music in
17:06
front of me, I couldn't just pick it up.
17:08
I would just have to go back to the beginning and start again.
17:10
Because to me it was one pattern.
17:13
And so and and I'm sure that if people memorize inductions and
17:19
memorize protocols that they can get lost that way.
17:23
So I think, you know, the whole thing about Dave was it was not
17:27
a script. You know, it was a bunch of
17:29
processes that he put together. And sometimes he used them all
17:33
on somebody and sometimes he used only a few.
17:36
But the fact is that if you if you do all six, you get very
17:42
good results and that way any beginner can do it and and
17:46
people go in easily. Yeah.
17:49
And, and I think, I mean, it's, it's a testament to the efficacy
17:53
of, of the induction in the components that, you know, a
17:58
hypnotherapist right now learning hypnotherapy is highly
18:01
likely to be taught the Elman induction.
18:04
And they, they don't need to know it as a script.
18:07
You're absolutely right. But the structure of checking in
18:11
fractionation, you know, the, the suggestions of, you know,
18:15
try and do that, you know, or, or testing for visualization,
18:19
the numbers, you know, just kind of for, you know, disappearing
18:22
like it's, it's a wonderful thing because it forces
18:24
calibration. It forces the ability to, to
18:27
kind of check in and notice the, the, the, the client.
18:31
And it has other psychological elements as well, rather than
18:35
just hypnosis, like compliance and expectation and, and all of
18:39
these things. And even the post hypnotic
18:40
suggestion, like the next time you, you, you try that, you're
18:44
going to go deeper and deeper like it's, it's such a wonderful
18:47
structure. And I'm just wondering from your
18:50
perspective, what, what legacy do you think?
18:55
Because most people will know, let's say the Ellman induction
18:57
and and link it to Dave Ellman. But beyond the induction, what,
19:01
what impact do you think that you know, it's had, let's say,
19:05
over the generations of hypnotherapists?
19:09
For example, I'm very good friends with Beryl Komar over
19:12
and who used to be over in Dubai and now lives over in Spain.
19:17
She was worked doing hypnosis over in Dubai for decades and
19:23
decades and she wanted to work with hip hypnodontics.
19:28
You know, she wanted to work with dentists and, and teeth and
19:31
there wasn't much written. She had a hard time.
19:34
She went to Dave Ellman's book and and worked with that.
19:38
So only 30 pages roughly in that whole book has to do with the
19:43
induction. The rest has to do with phobias
19:47
and, and, and pain and suggestion.
19:51
There's things even Kaz Riley has spoken quite a few times on
19:56
how Dave was pretty much, you know, ahead of his time in the
20:01
way he looked at sexual issues, you know, and how she uses some
20:05
of his techniques in working with with those issues.
20:09
So even though it was written for doctors and dentists, it
20:12
really goes across the board, you know, and, and so.
20:19
So if you if you were to read the book and most people like I
20:23
speak to have read it numerous times.
20:27
And if you hear my cat, sorry, she's trying to get up on my on
20:31
my lap. It's good thing I'm on a small
20:33
table while she'd be sitting on my keyboard anyway.
20:37
So, so that would be so working with.
20:42
I think one of the biggest things for him was also
20:46
regression to cause, you know, to go back and do.
20:49
And it's interesting because I was helping I, I sort of have
20:53
APDF version of the book that and, and that I had done so I
20:59
could quickly research things and I was trying to help
21:02
somebody find out the places where it talked about regression
21:06
and regression didn't come up. It was hypno analysis and
21:10
hypnotherapy is how he termed it.
21:12
So first was the hypno analysis. So I think and having listening
21:18
to him, I think a lot of people felt that he was authoritative
21:23
when you read it, but when you actually hear his recordings,
21:27
his, his, it's not authoritative.
21:30
It's direct, you know, but I, I don't think either Ericsson was
21:35
totally, you know, even though he was not direct, you know, he
21:41
was not totally permissive and Dave was not totally
21:45
authoritative. Larry would write up do a
21:48
quadrant and they were both sort of in the center there, you
21:52
know, with the one being more direct, one being more
21:56
authoritative and just slightly off centre for each so.
22:01
And I think that's probably the, the reason that people think of
22:04
Elman as being authoritative, because it's a nice easy way to
22:08
remember. Eriksonian was metaphorical and
22:11
indirect and Elman was authoritative and very direct
22:14
with direct suggestion. And I think you're right, you
22:16
know, it's, it's Shades of Grey rather than black and white.
22:19
But I think that's why people assume that because it's it's a
22:22
nice way of remembering like 2 very influential figures of that
22:26
time. Right.
22:29
And I think that's, you know the big, another big thing was he
22:35
was very client centered, you know, so it wasn't a written out
22:40
script that OK, let's see what are we working on.
22:42
OK, we're going to work on this. You know, and another
22:46
interesting thing about Dave was, you know, he taught
22:50
doctors, dentists, a few psychologists, but what the, all
22:55
the students would do is they would bring in patients, their
22:58
nurse, sometimes their wives, so that they'd be other people to
23:02
work with, you know, and so, so why was Dave so quick?
23:08
Well, part of it is expectation. So back then, if you think about
23:12
in the 40s and 50s, you know, back then there was no web MD.
23:17
There wasn't, you know, you know, Google that we didn't have
23:21
things at our fingertips looking things up.
23:24
Sometimes it's right, sometimes it's wrong, just like sometimes
23:28
doctors are right, sometimes doctors are wrong.
23:30
But at the same time, you know, back then you sort of had your
23:35
doctor on the pedestal because they were the specialist that
23:38
that was where you got your information.
23:40
So here were these doctors bringing in their patients or
23:45
their nurse or anyone, and they're learning from this guy.
23:51
Dave Ellman never graduated high school.
23:54
My dad didn't graduate high school.
23:56
It you know, it wasn't that big back then that you know, you,
24:00
you went out and you worked. You know, Dave was born in 1900.
24:05
So when he went into vaudeville and started traveling, you know,
24:10
his father died when he was 8 and he started playing with the
24:13
induction. And it was about 2012 I think is
24:17
when we figured out when when he actually sort of put together
24:22
the DEI and then he would practice on classmate then he
24:25
was in on stage. But when you oh, so they would
24:32
bring in their patients and here are these patients, the doctor
24:37
is saying their doctor is learning from this guy.
24:39
He must be so smart, so good. So they already went in with
24:45
expectation that this is this is somebody that their doctor is
24:49
learning from. So often it was like, go ahead
24:52
and close your eyes, you know, and, and that expectation is
24:56
like, it's the. It's, it's the element of and,
25:00
and I find that, you know, by having a podcast, by the time
25:04
clients actually work with me, they've already heard me so many
25:07
times that all it takes is take a deep breath in on the outward
25:10
breath, close your eyes. It doesn't need that kind of
25:13
long induction because they're, they already know how to get to
25:16
that place. And I think you're right.
25:18
There is a a lot of status and prestige connected to, you know,
25:24
the teacher of those people that are learning.
25:27
So I'm I'm sure it had a huge impact in terms of your
25:32
obviously you've travelled the world, you've you've taught lots
25:34
of people. What is your favorite part of
25:39
hypnosis? So you know, not, not your
25:43
husband, not your father-in-law, but but you like, what do you
25:45
like most about hypnosis? I love to be able to help people
25:55
make changes that they're looking to change and I.
25:58
Like to do. Interesting things.
26:00
You know that I would. I had somebody call me last year
26:04
that was getting a tattoo on half her body and she wanted to
26:12
get hypnotized so she can, you know, feel less and be able to
26:16
sit still. And she didn't want to use that
26:18
cream because she didn't want the ink to be covered and stuff.
26:21
And and so I had to decide. And then her genre was going to
26:25
be horror. And I'm going, yeah, you know,
26:28
and I'm just talking to this person on the phone.
26:30
I'm going. And do I want to do this?
26:32
I mean, they she's never been hypnotized.
26:34
She's never gotten a tattoo. That's a lot half a body and,
26:38
and I have to think on it and you know, I did a lot of I spoke
26:42
to a few people and I, I thought on it.
26:44
And so I decided to do it. I met her on Zoom and I did it.
26:48
So that was an unusual thing. And her tattoo artist, who's a
26:54
famous around the world had said to her that he had never had
26:58
anybody be able to sit on there his table because they did about
27:03
10 hours a day. And, and, and she was going
27:07
back, I think 3 or 4 times. So like they did the sleeve the
27:11
first time, you know, and, and, and she never asked for a break.
27:15
She, she used self hypnosis. She got into listening to
27:20
things, you know, she was able to to get, you know, to turn
27:26
down the pain. And so that was so interesting.
27:31
And and he said he's never had somebody that never asked for
27:35
breaks. They only took breaks when he
27:37
asked. So you know.
27:40
So. To help somebody, because that's
27:42
something she really wanted to do and it would have been so
27:45
much different had she done that without it.
27:50
So I like to be able to help people to achieve their goals in
27:56
all different ways. And as far as teaching, I love
28:01
to have people. I love to watch them first time
28:05
they've been hypnotized, or at least some people have been
28:09
hypnotized. Some people have gone through
28:11
classes and never been hypnotized and then or hypnotize
28:15
somebody. I don't know how they do that,
28:16
but they do maybe online classes.
28:19
And I love to see students go deep into the Elman induction
28:26
and a lot of them had never felt it, or maybe they were
28:30
hypnotized and didn't know it because they didn't have the
28:33
test and convincer component that's built into the DI.
28:37
And so they didn't know they were there.
28:40
You know, I mean, it's a weird feeling.
28:42
It's interesting. I love to watch people smile
28:44
when, you know, they close their eyes and, you know, relax all
28:48
the muscles and, you know, find you cannot open them, try to
28:52
open them and, and you see them doing that and I'm going, you
28:55
know, and some of them start smiling because it is an unusual
28:58
feeling, you know, or thoughts. So I love, I love to watch
29:03
people grow. I love to hear their experiences
29:08
with somebody that they have hypnotized in their stories and
29:13
to watch their growth. So those are my favorite things
29:17
and. It's interesting because you're
29:21
very much the archetype of the healer and the teacher.
29:25
You know, it's, there isn't one stronger than the other.
29:27
I think you get a lot of joy from from both, you know, kind
29:31
of helping other people understand it, but also helping
29:33
people make the changes. Yeah.
29:36
And and also helping people to feel confidence in their own
29:42
ability to do this. Yeah.
29:45
Yeah, it's a wonderful thing if you had to define hypnosis,
29:50
because the one of the things I found fascinating is that we're
29:53
in this profession called hypnotherapy and.
29:55
And he uses hypnosis and you can ask 10 different hypnotists what
29:59
hypnosis is and get 10 different answers and.
30:02
And it's a fascinating thing because everyone knows what
30:05
dentistry is, everyone knows what you know an optician does.
30:09
But hypnosis is very subjective and and it is open to
30:13
interpretation. But I'm just curious if you had
30:16
to define or describe hypnosis to someone had no idea.
30:21
Maybe that Lady who had half her body tattooed and just said what
30:24
is hypnosis like what do you tell them?
30:27
Well. The, the, the way Dave described
30:30
it was bypassing the critical faculty or factor.
30:35
It's been used both ways and, and, and inserting, wait a
30:40
minute, and inserting, wow, I just lost it.
30:45
Bypassing the critical factor and, and inserting selective
30:49
thinking. So what is that?
30:52
You know, we, we have this, you know, he would call it when you
30:56
were bypassing the critical factor when your eyes couldn't
31:00
open. I mean, that's like, well, you
31:02
know, they could open, but you're bypassing that and you're
31:06
creating a where they can't open.
31:08
He would sort of see that as bypassing that critical factor.
31:13
So what is it it to me? It's, I describe it as, you
31:18
know, when people say to me, oh, I don't, I don't, I don't, I
31:20
don't want to be hypnotized. I said, oh, I, I wouldn't need
31:23
hypnosis for anything. I said, Oh, well, you probably
31:26
never get any stress, huh? No, I get a lot of stress, so a
31:31
lot of people don't realize what it can be used for.
31:34
And it could be as simple as just relaxing a little or
31:37
stress, or it could be a fear. So to me, it's if somebody has
31:41
something that they want or need to change in their life, they
31:45
have this subconscious part of them and they have this desire
31:52
to do something and yet that they're not necessarily there's
31:56
that subconscious that keeps them from doing it.
31:59
It's got patterns and, and ideas and fears and thoughts from
32:03
before and, and, and, and it could be the opposite way too.
32:07
And, and then there's this piece that wants to do it.
32:10
So what you're doing is you're bringing them together and
32:13
getting them to agree with each other and get past that.
32:19
And whenever hypnosis is is talked about, some people
32:24
inextricably link it with this idea of a trance or a very
32:27
unique state. And, and, and what's your belief
32:31
there? Do you think a because you get a
32:33
lot of trainers now and they say hypnosis without hypnosis or
32:37
trance free hypnosis. What's your thoughts on this
32:41
kind of trance like state? Because a lot of people would
32:44
consider the Elman induction as an induction into that state
32:49
that you do bypass the critical faculty.
32:52
And without that, it's not really hypnosis, it's just talk
32:54
therapy. What's your thoughts on that?
32:57
Well. I'm going to go right back to my
33:00
father in law's book where I, you know, tend to spend some
33:04
time and he has huge chunks talking about waking hypnosis.
33:09
So waking hypnosis is basically more like the conversational
33:14
hypnosis or different things you're doing it.
33:16
So was all of his hypnosis deep trance?
33:21
No, you know, and so there's the whole waking hypnosis.
33:27
I mean, we, we, we have waking hypnosis every day.
33:31
You're watching a commercial on TV and food comes on and all of
33:35
a sudden you, you need to go into the kitchen and get
33:39
something or you walk into the movie theater and that smell of
33:42
popcorn, you know, you came in not really hungry, not really
33:46
wanting anything in that popcorn.
33:49
That's waking hypnosis. Just going and getting that
33:52
popcorn, you know, using one of your senses.
33:55
So the fact is waking hypnosis, we, we do it when we are
34:01
driving. You know, have you ever, I, I, I
34:06
had to put a light in front of our house.
34:08
We're on a country Rd. and it was real dark.
34:10
And I can't tell you how many times I passed it because I'd be
34:13
deep in thought. Or you're deep in thought and
34:16
you drive somewhere and then you try to think of the trip and you
34:19
know, it's just not there. You know, because you were so
34:22
deep in thought, you didn't notice, you know, your body,
34:25
your, your mind and your body just did what it normally did.
34:29
So we're in waking hypnosis a lot.
34:31
We take in suggestions, negative suggestions in waking hypnosis
34:36
all the time and you know. Yeah.
34:40
So how do you? Feel how do you feel about
34:43
waking hypnosis as opposed as as it relates to conversational
34:47
hypnosis or or some of the waking states yeah I I.
34:53
Think, I think we underestimate how easy it is into going into
34:58
these kind of trance states. You're right.
35:00
Most people, if they automatically drive, you know,
35:03
are in a trance. They're they're able to do
35:06
complex things like change lanes, change gears, but they're
35:09
in their head. If someone's reading a good
35:11
fiction book and you mentioned your, your 23 bookshelves, a
35:15
good fiction book, you get to a point where you don't even
35:18
recall turning the pages because you're immersed in that
35:21
universe. That's a lot like hypnosis.
35:24
You get the time distortion you get, you know, you're immersed
35:27
in this kind of imaginary world. There's that's, that's
35:30
disassociation while you're invested in maybe the first
35:34
person character in that, in that book.
35:36
I see a lot of people try in trance on the London
35:38
Underground, you know, they've got the arm catalepsy staring
35:41
into their phone and they're just lost in that world, You
35:45
know, that 15 minute journey, you know, seems to like
35:47
disappear while they're in that. So I think there's this idea
35:51
that you have to be hypnotized to go into a trance is is
35:55
ludicrous. Humans like going into hypnosis.
35:57
We go into hypnosis all the time.
35:59
But I think it's how I, let's say, define hypnotherapy as
36:05
opposed to just this kind of translate that people go into
36:08
all the time is using that state or that ability of a human to
36:13
kind of go to that place for some kind of positive or
36:17
constructive change. That's that's what makes it
36:20
different. Because if you're daydreaming,
36:23
you're probably in a trance, but you might not make a therapeutic
36:26
change. Or if you do, it's by accident.
36:28
But if you, if you kind of, if someone knows what they're
36:32
doing, they can take that similar kind of feeling and say,
36:35
right, there's a version of you that does not want to smoke ever
36:37
again, you know, or there's a version of you that wants to
36:40
change this relationship or introduce this barrier that
36:44
that's powerful. And I remember when I published
36:46
my thousandth episode of the podcast, I tried to answer that
36:50
question, like, what is hypnosis?
36:52
And because there's different variations of it, the best I
36:56
could come up with is deliberately using the
37:01
imagination to create change from a, from a therapeutic
37:04
perspective, because at some level, that's where it all is.
37:08
A memory is your imagination, thinking about the future is
37:10
your imagination, you know, and even if those people can't
37:14
really picture visually an imagination, everyone has an
37:18
imagination. They've got dreams of the
37:19
future, you know, and they've got memories of the past.
37:22
And and it's it's utilizing that from from my opinion.
37:27
And I think it's important, you know, that as hypnotists, we
37:30
don't assume everybody can visualize because they can't.
37:34
It's important. We have other.
37:35
Senses, you know, so I remember, I remember we were in Brisbane,
37:40
Australia and we were teaching a class and somebody was auditory
37:45
and was having a hard time visualizing the numbers to lose
37:48
them. So I just came up with, well,
37:51
think of yourself at the top of a mountain top and on a range
37:55
and hear that echo going off in the distance as it just keeps
38:01
disappearing with each one where you just let them go, you know,
38:06
so, so using different senses, if you're doing a a metaphor or
38:13
you have somebody at the beach, always important to find out,
38:16
you know, what could be a good metaphor for you could be
38:19
somebody or a good safe place for you could be somebody else's
38:23
nightmare. So it's always important to know
38:25
what's metaphors are are good for somebody.
38:28
And so when you do that, you go ahead and when you are are
38:35
creating that and giving them a sense, bringing in the different
38:39
senses. So if you're at the beach, you
38:41
know, you're hearing the seagulls or kids laughing down
38:44
the beach or the waves and smelling the salt and feeling
38:48
the sun coming in and out, you know, and the coolness of your
38:51
body. So you're bringing in a variety
38:54
of senses, which makes it much more multi sensual for them.
38:59
And, and so if you didn't know what their senses are, their
39:05
primary senses, you're hitting them anyway.
39:08
I I I agree and. And I learned that because when
39:12
I used to use the word visualize and you and saying the word, you
39:14
could see those visual predicates.
39:17
Sometimes I was calibrating. I was kind of like getting that
39:20
furrowed brow. And it's kind of like, oh,
39:21
they're not getting it. So I tend to use the word
39:24
imagine now rather than visualize or see because it
39:26
covers all the the senses. So you could imagine yourself on
39:31
being if they think they don't have.
39:33
Imagination. Then it could be as simple as or
39:36
think about. Yeah, yeah, that's it.
39:40
That's. It 'cause they'll go.
39:41
I can't imagine 'cause I. Don't have an imagination Well,
39:44
do you know how to think? Well, let's think about it.
39:47
You know, that's it. Just thinking and.
39:50
My belief is that all of the senses that we have in reality,
39:53
there is some kind of internal variation or version of them.
39:59
You know, some people will listen to their.
40:01
The first song in the morning and it kind of stays in their
40:03
head for the rest of the day and they they, they're not they're
40:06
not trying to do that, but it kind of stays with them.
40:08
So we've got all this ability to kind of harness senses
40:11
internally. It's going to be good to have
40:14
some kind of an experience from you even if it's a demo or a
40:17
guided kind of thing. But before you do that, I'm
40:21
going to get this published a day or two before I'm on your
40:25
kind of podcast, your your thing, the Elman Cafe.
40:28
So first of all, tell us about the Elman Cafe and then I can
40:32
touch on what we're going to be talking about in in a couple of
40:35
days time. OK, great.
40:39
Well, the Elman Cafe is a leftover remnant of of over In
40:46
2123 and 24, I produced a Zoom conference.
40:55
You know, we couldn't, we couldn't travel and, and, and I
41:00
really missed the conferences. So what we had done was we did 3
41:06
rooms, Zoom rooms and because our audience was global, I want
41:10
to include everybody. So we did three Zoom rooms 12
41:14
hours a day for three days and then we had the Elman Cafe.
41:20
So if you've ever been to the hypnothoughts, it was like going
41:24
to the Alligator Bar. Or if you go to a conference,
41:27
you know, meeting at the coffee shop or the bar so that in
41:30
between or you know, you don't want to go to one right after
41:34
the other, you can go ahead and go in there and visit with each
41:38
other and network and could go into little rooms together.
41:43
So we started the Cafe and couple times we had somebody
41:48
play music in there. So when we stopped doing the
41:51
conferences and by the way, my new platform that's going on,
41:56
Click Funnels already has the last conference up there, which
42:00
each conference had about 86 speakers and, and different
42:06
topics. No, nobody spoke on the same
42:09
topics and there were like 6 panels and six keynotes.
42:13
SO2A day. So what if you came in late in
42:16
the day, you got a keynote, you got one up there in the morning.
42:20
So and we did this three times and the other two are going to
42:24
be up this year, in the next year or two.
42:27
So the goal was that my husband just passed and part of bringing
42:35
the Elman legacy and keeping it alive because a lot of people
42:40
didn't know Daves teachings and I think that it's strong to do I
42:45
use only Dave Ellman's methods. No, I really blend a lot of
42:49
things and I truly believe because Dave in his years from
42:54
1949 when the doctors came to him and asked if that he would
43:00
teach them and he goes, I'm not a doctor.
43:03
They said yes, but you've got you've got credibility.
43:07
You most people go into hypnosis.
43:11
It's short, so we could use it in our office and and it's got
43:17
tests and convinces we can know where they are.
43:19
So he started teaching so but over the years he's he had a
43:24
heart attack in 62, so he stopped traveling, but still
43:27
spoke to doctors on on the phone.
43:30
It kept metamorphosizing. He kept growing just like all of
43:34
us as we learn. You learn what you originally
43:37
learned and you're constantly learning things besides.
43:40
So you know with each course, you know every time you go to a
43:44
conference. I remember Eleni Midas said when
43:49
she came to Heartland I did something one, one thing I was
43:53
teaching. She goes, that was my golden
43:55
nugget. This is why I came from
43:57
Australia, just to hear that thing and then she started using
44:01
it. So you're always going to pick
44:02
something up. So so the Elman Cafe I started
44:07
to, I've done it sporadically. I'm looking to do it more and
44:11
that is to have people come in at least twice a month.
44:18
I missed the last few months and so I'm making up a bit and to
44:21
talk about them and it's going to be Evergreen because we have
44:25
the replay vault. And so hearing Adam's talk will
44:32
be also being there live is great.
44:35
And we, we depend on you being live so you could ask questions
44:39
and be part of it. And besides, it's really nice.
44:42
I don't know about you, Adam, but if I, I like doing a zoom
44:46
meeting so I can see people and I want to see their faces
44:49
instead of their, just their name on their thing.
44:52
So, so you have an audience because to me, watching where
44:56
people shut put their video off and you're just seeing their
44:59
name, to me, it's like if you went into a conference and we're
45:03
listening to somebody, it would be like people turning their
45:06
chair around and you're looking at the back of their head.
45:09
So, so when you are actually looking at people and talking to
45:14
people, you know, it makes a big difference in how you deliver
45:19
and, and your feelings as your passion as you're doing it then
45:23
talking to an empty mic or an empty room.
45:25
So that's what one of the reasons I like that versus the
45:30
webinars. So and then we'll it'll be up
45:34
there in the replay vault and people can keep going back and
45:38
being there. And my goal is to keep this
45:41
going beyond my life, you know, putting in, you know, a little,
45:47
you know, payment and get somebody to take it over and,
45:50
and, and fund it for a while. So that, so it keeps going.
45:55
All these things, the conferences.
45:57
So that's about 270 hours of people speaking and panels and
46:05
from 16 countries. And so that that is so I love
46:10
that idea. And also that I'm going to be
46:13
taking from our travels and our courses.
46:16
I'm going to be putting together courses on there that will be
46:21
that will be have a lot of Dave Elman from his recordings, his
46:26
audios involved and woven in Larry speaking, you know, me
46:32
speaking some of the people in the classes capturing them from
46:36
what they have said also. So I, I just want to so they'll
46:41
be Evergreen courses so that they don't come and go and they
46:46
got, you know, and I think, I think, I think it's great.
46:51
So I'm really excited and I'm hoping that people come in here.
46:56
Adam, you want to talk about what you're talking about?
47:00
Yes, I'm going to be talking about.
47:01
Nested loops, so levels of disassociation.
47:05
So this idea of stories within stories within stories and and
47:09
podcasting. So I think there's a lot of
47:11
therapists out there that would really benefit from either being
47:14
on podcasts or having their own podcast.
47:17
So if you are listening to this and you'd like the idea of that,
47:21
I'm going to make sure that there is a link in the
47:23
description. So you can either see it live if
47:25
you listen to this before it goes live, or the link will take
47:29
you to the pre records if you're hearing this after it's already
47:33
gone out. So either way, you'll be able to
47:36
catch catch that and me on the Elman Cafe.
47:40
Now, I'm just looking at the time here, Cheryl.
47:42
So I'm not going to rush you into a demo.
47:45
Instead, what I'm going to do is make sure that there is a link
47:48
to your resources so that if anyone wants to see either you
47:53
or any of the the the speakers that you've had, they can check
47:58
that out and then they can kind of get from you.
48:01
Is there anything in particular that you would steer people
48:04
towards in terms of recordings that you have in your archives?
48:13
In the in the, in the ones that have just come up in the last
48:19
few months, Cormac Coloran and Dr. Jodi Sahlberg were speaking
48:26
about trauma and trauma based issues.
48:33
And that's there. I can't remember what's there,
48:37
but there's there's a lot of free ones from the last few
48:42
years. You got Karen Hand in there
48:44
speaking. You have Sheila Granger in there
48:47
speaking. There's, I can't even begin to
48:51
tell you how many there are, but there's the free ones and then
48:54
there's the ones that that are on that.
49:00
And I'm not even sure that conference, I'm not sure what
49:05
it's selling for or how it is. I know that the people that had
49:08
access to it were the people that originally paid for it or
49:12
what it's going to be. So that's still, this is still
49:17
all new, you know, we started building this site and then my,
49:21
my husband got sick and I sort of had to pull away and then,
49:26
and then Jason's dad was sick and, and passed.
49:29
And so I'm just now getting back to OK.
49:32
I really want to work on this and get it done.
49:34
Another thing that I do is I also train people in sleep talk
49:40
for children and that is when you train parents to speak to
49:45
their children 2:00 to 3:00 and it's a night during this sleep
49:48
to build this self esteem and emotional resilience.
49:53
And so you know, people go, I talked to my child in this
49:57
sleep. I said, oh really, what do you
49:59
like about what you're going to get 100 tomorrow?
50:01
You're so beautiful. You're going to be a lawyer.
50:04
No pressure there, right? So this really helps.
50:09
It was designed by Joan Goulding in Australia and, and I have a
50:13
special, an, an elementary school degree and I really love
50:19
the fact of how it helps families.
50:22
You know, if, if, if you grow up with, if you grew up with sexual
50:28
abuse or physical abuse or mental abuse, if you, you don't
50:32
know how to get past that. And often it goes to the next
50:35
generation. You know, if, if you did not
50:38
grow up with unconditional love, you don't know how to give it.
50:44
And that's what that this course is about is helping parents to
50:50
be able to give and their children and have their children
50:54
feel unconditionally loved so that we can break that cycle so
50:58
that they can then have this trends to go forward.
51:02
And, and, and they'll use those same techniques with their
51:08
children, you know, just growing up feeling like they've loved,
51:13
they're loved and, and not feeling rejected or other things
51:19
that get them in trouble. That's wonderful.
51:22
So I'll make sure that. For anyone listening, there'll
51:24
be a link to the Elwyn Cafe and also this course on Sleep Talk
51:28
as well. So if you're interested, check
51:30
out the links to learn more about that.
51:33
Cheryl, it's been, it's been lovely.
51:34
You know, I know we talked about this in Chicago and it's so good
51:37
that we've made it happen. So thank you.
51:39
Thank you so, so much for joining me.
51:41
And I will see you in a couple of days on your Elm Cafe.
51:45
Thank you. So.
51:46
Much thank you so much for joining me.
51:51
On today's episode of The Hypnotist, if you've enjoyed
51:55
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52:34
Thank you again for being a regular listener of The
52:38
Hypnotist and I'll see you again soon for more.