Latest / Your Money, Your Rules | Financial Mastery, Wealth Mindset, Leadership Principles, Intuitive Decision-Making, Human Design / 70 | HR & Employment Law Secrets Every Business Owner Should Know (with Jacquiline Wagner)

Transcript

70 | HR & Employment Law Secrets Every Business Owner Should Know (with Jacquiline Wagner) · Your Money, Your Rules | Financial Mastery, Wealth Mindset, Leadership Principles, Intuitive Decision-Making, Human Design

• 0:00
  Erin Gray: You're listening to Generate a Life Well-Lived podcast.
• 0:02
  Erin Gray: I'm your friend and confidant, erin Gray.
• 0:04
  Erin Gray: On this podcast, we will explore all things money, business and self-development, including human design.
• 0:10
  Erin Gray: I hope you enjoy the journey, where I share everything that I know and am continuing to learn along the way, as I honor my heart's desires while inspiring and encouraging you to do the same.
• 0:20
  Erin Gray: Hello, how are you?
• 0:22
  Erin Gray: We just got back from Vancouver Island.
• 0:25
  Erin Gray: It was an amazing trip.
• 0:28
  Erin Gray: I typically don't travel like that because I'm more of a.
• 0:32
  Erin Gray: We travel for a longer period of time.
• 0:34
  Erin Gray: We only went for a week.
• 0:35
  Erin Gray: We travel more slowly.
• 0:38
  Erin Gray: I would probably describe it as our travel style, but we were there for a week and there was a lot to see, and so it did feel like a full court press and recognizing how much I love travel and also allowing myself a little bit of downtime and integration and processing when I get back home.
• 0:59
  Erin Gray: We got to see orcas and humpback whales and bald eagles and sea lions and all the marine life.
• 1:08
  Erin Gray: It was so fun, so good.
• 1:10
  Erin Gray: I definitely highly recommend Vancouver Island.
• 1:14
  Erin Gray: It was because it's off season.
• 1:16
  Erin Gray: There was hardly anyone where we stayed.
• 1:20
  Erin Gray: We like to stay at Airbnbs and we stayed up in Parksville, which is a little bit north of Nanaimo, and it was a great place If you're thinking of going great place to stay because you are kind of equidistant to a lot of things.
• 1:35
  Erin Gray: Uh, originally we had talked about staying in Victoria and that is at the very South tip of the Island and the day trips that we were doing I think it would have been a little bit more difficult time-wise in the car, so it was good that we were up a little bit more Parksville area, a little bit North of Nanaimo.
• 1:54
  Erin Gray: So, getting back into the swing of things, always grateful for all of the trips that we take, people that we get to talk to, like people that we get to talk to, and recognizing really how much we are, I mean, I know we're nature and also how much we've been conditioned out of you know being nature in the sense of you know nature has its rests and it has its springtime and it's getting towards winter and so you know asking yourself are you fighting against because of some prescribed way that you know someone has told you that you need to run your business versus are you honoring the ebbs and flows of nature?
• 2:39
  Erin Gray: And sometimes it requires a little bit more rest and rejuvenation for us to come back and feel replenished.
• 2:50
  Erin Gray: So I just want to encourage you to honor what your body is asking of you, what it is telling you.
• 2:59
  Erin Gray: I recognized yesterday that I was definitely tired.
• 3:03
  Erin Gray: We long story.
• 3:04
  Erin Gray: We were going to fly, but our plane had mechanical issues and so we got bumped to a later flight.
• 3:12
  Erin Gray: And then that flight was the same flight that was having mechanical issues and it was already delayed again, and so I didn't want to wait for the delay and then it'd be delayed again, so we just rented a car.
• 3:23
  Erin Gray: So we ended up driving, which we typically don't drive long distances and just recognizing how tired I was from the drive and you know, aaron, you know several years ago would have forced myself to work yesterday and just recognizing that my body was asking me to be still and to rest so that I could come back, you know like I felt much more energized this morning and today than I did yesterday.
• 3:47
  Erin Gray: So, just honoring what your body is asking of you and being in tune with that.
• 3:55
  Erin Gray: So on today's podcast I have Jacqueline Wagner.
• 3:58
  Erin Gray: She is a human resource and employment law attorney.
• 4:01
  Erin Gray: I love her take on emotional intelligence, self-awareness, empathy.
• 4:06
  Erin Gray: You know, when I worked for my dad and my uncle in our construction business.
• 4:11
  Erin Gray: You know we I worked really closely with an employment attorney and just visiting with Jacqueline and her views on a win-win situation for both right Employee and employer not just seeing it as one-sided and really educating the employer, the company, so that they can empower their employees and not allow it to get to a point where an employee feels like they are not being heard.
• 4:46
  Erin Gray: I loved our conversation, so grateful that she was able to come on and share her wealth of knowledge with us.
• 4:52
  Erin Gray: So let's dive into our conversation.
• 4:54
  Erin Gray: Hey everyone, thanks for tuning in today.
• 4:56
  Erin Gray: So so glad you're here.
• 4:58
  Erin Gray: I have Jacqueline Wagner on the podcast, so thanks, jacqueline, for coming on, for sharing your wealth of knowledge with us and so happy that you're here.
• 5:07
  Jacquiline Wagner: Thanks so much, erin.
• 5:08
  Jacquiline Wagner: Thanks for having me, yeah.
• 5:10
  Erin Gray: So do you want to dive in just a little bit about how did you become or get into employment law and then kind of your story, just a little bit for the listeners and viewers.
• 5:21
  Jacquiline Wagner: Oh gosh, how I got into employment law is kind of a funny story.
• 5:24
  Jacquiline Wagner: And viewers oh gosh, how I got into employment law is kind of a funny story.
• 5:29
  Jacquiline Wagner: So I grew up in a union home.
• 5:30
  Jacquiline Wagner: My dad was a teamster and I grew up with that mentality of a person who's not in management, not the employer, not the business owner, the person who is getting the job done, the boots on the ground, and that was my orientation.
• 5:53
  Jacquiline Wagner: When I went to law school, I really didn't know what kind of law I wanted to practice, but with the tech boom happening in the mid 1990s, I thought okay, if I go into tech, I'll have some job security.
• 6:05
  Jacquiline Wagner: So I started.
• 6:07
  Jacquiline Wagner: I took classes on copyright and patent law and anything I could think of that might eventually relate to technology.
• 6:19
  Jacquiline Wagner: And that was a really smart move.
• 6:21
  Jacquiline Wagner: The only problem with it is that I hated it and it was boring.
• 6:25
  Jacquiline Wagner: And so I was going to, I was prepared to hunker down and, um, you know, just do my job, my boring little job I was.
• 6:34
  Jacquiline Wagner: I was totally prepared for that.
• 6:35
  Jacquiline Wagner: And then, um, I was interning, uh, and the woman who was overseeing my work was the.
• 6:43
  Jacquiline Wagner: It was in-house with an organization, and the woman who was overseeing my work was the.
• 6:45
  Jacquiline Wagner: It was in-house with an organization.
• 6:48
  Jacquiline Wagner: And the woman who was my mentor overseeing my work the attorney overseeing my work told me hey, I don't, we don't have enough work in copyright patent right now, so I'm going to need you to jump in on some employment law cases.
• 7:07
  Jacquiline Wagner: And I was really nervous about that because, coming from a union home, I thought, oh gosh, I'm going to get flack for this.
• 7:20
  Jacquiline Wagner: So I was in my early twenties, so my dad's opinion of me really mattered then.
• 7:26
  Jacquiline Wagner: So, uh, I said, okay, you know, I, I, I was taught a really good work ethic that you get you do the job that needs to be done.
• 7:36
  Jacquiline Wagner: And I, I did, I, I got right into it and did the work and I loved it.
• 7:41
  Jacquiline Wagner: I really loved it.
• 7:42
  Jacquiline Wagner: And she told me.
• 7:44
  Jacquiline Wagner: She said, you know, after I'd done a few things for her, she said you know, you seem to really have an aptitude for this.
• 7:51
  Jacquiline Wagner: You really relate to the employee's perspective and we're you know we can leverage that in defending the employer, because we know where the employee is coming from and that'll really help you with being a good internal voice, um, for management.
• 8:10
  Jacquiline Wagner: I thought, oh, I could never do that.
• 8:11
  Jacquiline Wagner: I could never do that, she said, and I explained to her why and she thought that was pretty cute because I was so young.
• 8:18
  Jacquiline Wagner: And um, uh, she said why don't you do this?
• 8:22
  Jacquiline Wagner: Why don't you call your dad and why don't you get his blessing and see if it works out?
• 8:27
  Jacquiline Wagner: I have a feeling he'll say yes.
• 8:29
  Jacquiline Wagner: I was like there's no way, there's no way.
• 8:31
  Jacquiline Wagner: And I called him up and he was a furniture and delivery man my whole life for 35 years.
• 8:40
  Jacquiline Wagner: And I called him up and I said I have this opportunity.
• 8:45
  Jacquiline Wagner: The employee, the attorney who handles employment law, says I have an aptitude for it.
• 8:52
  Jacquiline Wagner: I really like it, it's interesting to me, and he asked some probing questions.
• 8:58
  Jacquiline Wagner: So let me get this straight You're going to be working for the employer.
• 9:01
  Jacquiline Wagner: You're going to be doing their bidding, bidding.
• 9:03
  Jacquiline Wagner: Yes, that's what I'm going to be doing, uh, and I really like it.
• 9:08
  Jacquiline Wagner: I've done a little bit so far and I really enjoy it.
• 9:12
  Jacquiline Wagner: And he started to say and I thought this was going to be the crushing blow where he told me no way.
• 9:17
  Jacquiline Wagner: He said I didn't lift refrigerators over the tops of countertops for 35 years so that you could, you know.
• 9:26
  Jacquiline Wagner: And I'm waiting for his next line.
• 9:29
  Jacquiline Wagner: And he said so that you could do a job you hate.
• 9:33
  Jacquiline Wagner: I did a job I hated so that you could choose what you want to do and you get to make your own career trajectory.
• 9:43
  Jacquiline Wagner: And I totally support you and I totally applaud you for finding something that you love.
• 9:49
  Jacquiline Wagner: And everybody's goal is to find something you love.
• 9:52
  Jacquiline Wagner: And you know, thanksgiving dinners were a little tense at first but everybody got over it and I was able to advocate for why what I was doing was really good work and important work and illustrate how I could, from the inside, give the employees perspective.
• 10:17
  Jacquiline Wagner: And I was really good at that and they appreciated that.
• 10:19
  Jacquiline Wagner: And from then on, you know, I've been practicing now for 25 years and I love it.
• 10:27
  Jacquiline Wagner: I love every day.
• 10:28
  Jacquiline Wagner: It is fascinating, fun work and I wouldn't trade it for copyright ever again.
• 10:35
  Erin Gray: I'm like dad you bring tears to my eyes.
• 10:38
  Erin Gray: That's the sweetest thing ever Because for some of us, right, we have done work.
• 10:44
  Erin Gray: we don't love for money and it feels absolutely terrible in the body and I think you have such a unique perspective.
• 10:54
  Erin Gray: It's like we don't know it at the time, right, but all those years that you got to hear the employee side because I think a lot of times we think of law or and it's this very the word that comes to mind is like come, it sounds combative or it could be combative versus how can we make this a win-win for both of us?
• 11:14
  Erin Gray: That's right, and you know, how can we support each other and we get what we both want out of this?
• 11:20
  Erin Gray: Versus somebody's got to win and somebody's got to lose.
• 11:23
  Erin Gray: Like a zero sum game, very lack mentality versus yeah, love-based, and like how can I support my, my employees and how can I also, you know, support myself as the?
• 11:36
  Jacquiline Wagner: business owner.
• 11:37
  Jacquiline Wagner: That's right.
• 11:38
  Jacquiline Wagner: You know I have the unique opportunity to, with that, all that information I have about the employee side and I was an employee for a long time too being able to pop the hood of the employer and look inside and say, hey, I think we could do this better, I think you could do that better, do this better, I think you could do that better.
• 12:04
  Jacquiline Wagner: And you know, in a way that, as you said, comes from a place of abundance, not lack, Comes from a place of if I foster my employees to maximize their full potential, I'm going to get their full potential, I'm going to receive their best work, and so it's an investment in the workforce that's going to pay back in spades.
• 12:35
  Erin Gray: I guess, is how I call it.
• 12:35
  Erin Gray: Dividends is the word that comes to mind.
• 12:37
  Erin Gray: Yeah, dividends, thank you.
• 12:39
  Jacquiline Wagner: It's going to be an amazing payback because it's an investment that you're making in your workforce.
• 12:47
  Erin Gray: So for for entrepreneurs that are starting out or they're kind of moving to like, okay, I'm starting to hire people.
• 12:55
  Erin Gray: And to everyone that's listening and watching, you know that I am all about empowerment.
• 13:01
  Erin Gray: So like, go do your own research.
• 13:02
  Erin Gray: Like Jacqueline's not giving you advice here, we're not telling you what you should be doing, we're just opening.
• 13:07
  Erin Gray: I always say, like we're getting you to like, see beside, behind Jacqueline's laptop, of what she sees, what she experiences, so that you know.
• 13:15
  Erin Gray: Because one of the questions that clients typically say is like I don't know what I don't know, like I don't even know the questions to ask because I don't even know the knowledge isn't there.
• 13:24
  Erin Gray: So what, what do you see?
• 13:26
  Erin Gray: Or what would you?
• 13:27
  Erin Gray: When I say suggest, I don't mean advise, but just like what has been your?
• 13:31
  Erin Gray: You know when you're going from okay, you're a single person shop to okay, I'm now I'm starting to either contract out or I'm having employees, kind of what, what is that Right?
• 13:44
  Jacquiline Wagner: Right, okay, employees, kind of what.
• 13:47
  Jacquiline Wagner: What is that?
• 13:47
  Jacquiline Wagner: Right, right, okay.
• 13:47
  Jacquiline Wagner: So I want to set, so I want to tee up the ball with a little.
• 13:49
  Jacquiline Wagner: Another little story, okay.
• 13:51
  Jacquiline Wagner: So there is a famous adage, um, that I'm gonna kind of relate in common parlance.
• 13:58
  Jacquiline Wagner: So picture you're out camping with your family in some random forest, some, you know, woods forest, whatever your, uh, particular demographic, your particular geography, yes, and you come across a stream and you notice that there are babies floating down the stream of.
• 14:24
  Jacquiline Wagner: Of course you're going to run down to the stream and start pulling out babies out of this stream to make sure none of these babies drown, right.
• 14:35
  Jacquiline Wagner: And let's say you're doing that for an hour.
• 14:39
  Jacquiline Wagner: You're pulling babies out of the stream, you're saving a lot of babies, most of the babies.
• 14:44
  Jacquiline Wagner: You're saving them and you're feeling good about that.
• 14:46
  Jacquiline Wagner: But then at some point in that time frame you have to look upstream and go where are these babies coming from?
• 14:55
  Jacquiline Wagner: How do I prevent the babies from coming down the stream in the first place?
• 14:59
  Jacquiline Wagner: So that's sort of what I've done in my career for 25 years.
• 15:06
  Jacquiline Wagner: I litigated pulling babies out of the stream, as they were rushing down the stream, pulling babies out of the stream.
• 15:14
  Jacquiline Wagner: You know, litigating, resolving lawsuits, litigating lawsuits it's exhausting.
• 15:23
  Jacquiline Wagner: It is it's exhausting, but it doesn't solve the problem of where the baby's coming from.
• 15:29
  Jacquiline Wagner: Yep, how do we prevent the babies from coming down the stream in the first place?
• 15:33
  Jacquiline Wagner: And with 25 years experience of getting to pop the hood of so many different employers, I have a pretty good idea of how to prevent the babies from falling down the stream in the first place, and I sort of milk it down to a top five of how you, how an employer, a new employer can leverage preventing litigation, employment litigation, stubbed toes, babies coming down the stream in the first place.
• 16:08
  Jacquiline Wagner: The first place I like to start is by cultivating the emotional intelligence of the leadership of the organization, and that has to come from the top down.
• 16:24
  Jacquiline Wagner: In the 1990s, an industrial psychologist named Daniel Goleman coined a phrase that was already used in psychology, but he coined it to apply to the workplace, called emotional intelligence, and he wrote a book, and now he's written.
• 16:46
  Jacquiline Wagner: You know 10, 11, 12 books and he's a book, and now he's written.
• 16:48
  Jacquiline Wagner: You know 10, 11, 12 books and he's a renowned author now.
• 16:50
  Jacquiline Wagner: But at the time he was positing that more important to success than their substantive knowledge in their uh, chosen profession is what's known as emotional intelligence, self-awareness, empathy, self-regulation, motivation and social deafness or social skills.
• 17:25
  Jacquiline Wagner: Those five components, when well-fostered, will allow someone to maximize sort of those soft skills that make a great leader and they're going to get really far in their career very quickly.
• 17:41
  Jacquiline Wagner: And we see it with young politicians, young entrepreneurs, young folk who kind of feel like an old soul.
• 17:53
  Jacquiline Wagner: It's because they're fostering the emotional intelligence and that has to come from the top of the organization.
• 18:02
  Jacquiline Wagner: Human resources can campaign to have leadership foster their emotional intelligence, but if it's not coming from the top, if there's not buy-in from the top of the organization, it's not going to be somewhere.
• 18:18
  Jacquiline Wagner: With changing the culture and climate of the organization to have less litigation and more psychological safety among employees, that's where to start with cultivating the emotional intelligence of the leadership themselves.
• 18:49
  Erin Gray: It's like parenting, I mean.
• 18:51
  Erin Gray: It's right in the sense of like we're, so we want our children to behave a certain way, but they're modeling us and so in.
• 18:59
  Erin Gray: You know, employer, employee relationship, like the energy doesn't lie, it doesn't matter what you're saying, it's how you are energetically interacting with your people and how you are with yourself and how are you responding to your customers and your clients and like that, all that's all that emotionally.
• 19:18
  Erin Gray: What you're referring to is that emotional intelligence, like, are they aware?
• 19:21
  Erin Gray: Are they, are they a do as I say, not as I do, or or are they like?
• 19:25
  Erin Gray: No, like I walk my walk and I, you know, I Right, yeah.
• 19:30
  Jacquiline Wagner: And there is a way you know.
• 19:31
  Jacquiline Wagner: If you do, if you set goals and expectations in an emotionally intelligent way, you'll be like the Pied Piper your team is going to want to follow you into success, and so that investment into fostering the emotional intelligence of leadership will pay off in dividends.
• 19:54
  Jacquiline Wagner: And then the second thing I recommend is employee handbooks that are well communicated and defined.
• 20:06
  Jacquiline Wagner: An employee handbook is not just, you know, an articulation in black and white in writing of performance expectations or what's legally required.
• 20:21
  Jacquiline Wagner: It's also the employer's first opportunity to communicate with new employees about the culture and climate of the organization.
• 20:34
  Jacquiline Wagner: What do we stand for?
• 20:36
  Jacquiline Wagner: What do we expect of our leadership?
• 20:39
  Jacquiline Wagner: How will you be treated at this organization?
• 20:43
  Jacquiline Wagner: What is the trade-off?
• 20:45
  Jacquiline Wagner: And we want to emphasize that here you will feel valued, seen and heard.
• 20:51
  Jacquiline Wagner: That is so important that communicating that to the workforce right out of the gate is so important.
• 21:03
  Jacquiline Wagner: So often, when an employee handbook only sets forth you know what's legally required and leave time or wage an hour and it sets performance expectations, you know you're an at-will employee.
• 21:19
  Jacquiline Wagner: We're going to fire you if we want.
• 21:22
  Jacquiline Wagner: You don't have any rights.
• 21:23
  Jacquiline Wagner: You know that's very.
• 21:24
  Jacquiline Wagner: That's important to say out loud.
• 21:26
  Jacquiline Wagner: But what's more important is to set your climate and culture.
• 21:30
  Jacquiline Wagner: This is what we're about.
• 21:32
  Jacquiline Wagner: You're going to feel valued, seen and heard.
• 21:36
  Jacquiline Wagner: You know, here's where you complain.
• 21:39
  Jacquiline Wagner: If you have a gripe.
• 21:40
  Jacquiline Wagner: Here's an employee resource group that you can go to.
• 21:44
  Jacquiline Wagner: If you belong to a protected class, here's you know, here's this resource, here's that resource.
• 21:52
  Jacquiline Wagner: You can set up the ball to begin someone's employment in a good feeling way so that they want to give that best effort to maximize their full potential.
• 22:08
  Jacquiline Wagner: I think that's a tremendous opportunity for employers.
• 22:14
  Jacquiline Wagner: Many employers don't even have an employee handbook, or if they do, it's rudimentary.
• 22:20
  Jacquiline Wagner: You know something they bought off the internet that, just you know, sets forth what the law provides.
• 22:26
  Jacquiline Wagner: That's a missed opportunity in my in my view.
• 22:30
  Erin Gray: I wrote down it's.
• 22:31
  Erin Gray: It's either like you're checking the box or it's actually an embodiment, right?
• 22:35
  Erin Gray: It's almost like values.
• 22:36
  Erin Gray: Like you don't do values for your company because that's what everyone says you do.
• 22:41
  Erin Gray: You do values because those, to me, are like your North star, your guiding light, like okay, when I'm like gotten off track, what, what are those things that are really important to me that I'm going to make my decisions from?
• 22:51
  Erin Gray: It's the same way with you know, like are you just doing this?
• 22:54
  Erin Gray: Like you're saying, okay, we have to have this.
• 22:56
  Erin Gray: Somebody said we have to have this to protect us, versus no, this matters to me.
• 23:00
  Erin Gray: I want to have this be used as a way that this is another way to show support to my employees that you know this is, this is how we will support you, this is how we will and when I say take care of you, you know what I mean.
• 23:14
  Erin Gray: Like that we will.
• 23:15
  Erin Gray: You know, honor you.
• 23:16
  Erin Gray: Like you say, see, see, you value you.
• 23:18
  Erin Gray: And yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 23:21
  Jacquiline Wagner: That's right.
• 23:22
  Jacquiline Wagner: So many employees don't feel valued, seen and heard, and so, just saying it out loud, it is.
• 23:31
  Jacquiline Wagner: It is a tremendous.
• 23:33
  Jacquiline Wagner: It has a tremendous impact on employee psychological safety.
• 23:38
  Erin Gray: Have you seen over the years because I feel like I've been in the male dominated industries and I love men so much and I and I think about sometimes of like how they've had to put on this brave face and shut down the emotions because that's kind of you know, the 70, 80s and 90s have you seen a change in employers of what you're saying?
• 24:02
  Erin Gray: Like allowing the emotions to be there too?
• 24:05
  Erin Gray: Like we do see you, we do value, like not this separation of like there's work and there's home and like don't mix the two together.
• 24:11
  Erin Gray: Like very much of you're a whole person.
• 24:14
  Erin Gray: You know you have feelings.
• 24:16
  Erin Gray: That shows up here too.
• 24:17
  Erin Gray: We're here, we're support you.
• 24:18
  Erin Gray: How can we?
• 24:19
  Erin Gray: How can we help?
• 24:21
  Jacquiline Wagner: Yeah.
• 24:21
  Jacquiline Wagner: So the movement is to, you know, bring your whole self to work.
• 24:27
  Jacquiline Wagner: And and when you encourage leadership to cultivate their empathy component of emotional intelligence, that's really what you're asking them to do is to allow the people they lead to bring their whole self to work.
• 24:42
  Jacquiline Wagner: You know, I've got this situation at home or I got to leave early because Billy has a baseball game, or I'm contending with a divorce, or I'm looking for support in this way because I'm going through this.
• 25:02
  Jacquiline Wagner: That's all really important, and where I'm seeing it the most is permission to tend to family matters in a way that we didn't see 20 years ago.
• 25:18
  Jacquiline Wagner: You know when the employer says out loud we want you to go to the baseball game, the basketball game, you know, with your kid, for your kid.
• 25:32
  Jacquiline Wagner: We want to cultivate that.
• 25:34
  Jacquiline Wagner: We encourage you to bring your kid to work on XYZ days, what you know, so that they can see where you work and they can see what you do and they can see why you're away.
• 25:49
  Jacquiline Wagner: That's where I'm seeing the most movement, and remote work too, offering remote work as a support to folks with kids and even single people who have no reason to come in.
• 26:06
  Jacquiline Wagner: They're the most technologically sound folk and so they're.
• 26:11
  Jacquiline Wagner: You know they've already got it all figured out.
• 26:18
  Jacquiline Wagner: They don't need the FaceTime like we did 20 years ago.
• 26:20
  Jacquiline Wagner: That's where I'm seeing the most movement is with that older generation, who maybe has grandkids, now seeing the value of the relationship with the children in a way they may not have gotten to see when they were, when their children were little, and now supporting their younger workforce, maximizing that time with their families, because you know you can go to the baseball game at three o'clock and have dinner with your family and then, when the kids are in bed, you know, keep working, understanding that as an employer, that the work doesn't have to be done under the roof of the employer.
• 27:03
  Jacquiline Wagner: That's been a huge transition and I think the pandemic really lent itself to illustrating that for many employers.
• 27:12
  Jacquiline Wagner: I think had the pandemic not happened, it would have been a harder sell.
• 27:18
  Jacquiline Wagner: It was starting to happen, but the pandemic really underscored the ability for so many people to work from home or to work after hours.
• 27:29
  Erin Gray: Yeah, I remember when I was working in my family's business and my dad said, when Grayson, my daughter, was little, he said, you know, aaron, I, I didn't realize how much your mom did until you have Grayson.
• 27:42
  Erin Gray: And you're like, yeah, I can do that, but it'll have to be after this time or you know all of that because back in the eighties, right Old school way of doing things, it was like most, most was the husband worked and the mom stayed at home.
• 27:56
  Erin Gray: And that's not the way that it is anymore.
• 27:58
  Erin Gray: And like you're saying so, if you're at work all the time and you don't recognize, oh, mom's got to juggle all of these things.
• 28:05
  Erin Gray: And now working moms are juggling all of these things and we're still.
• 28:13
  Erin Gray: You know so and and I wrote down a couple of things of like that old school way of thinking, like you have to be.
• 28:15
  Erin Gray: I mean, this was very robust conversations I used to have with my uncle, because after I had Grayson, I was like I'm not coming back to work, I'm going to work at the house because the nanny could come over or she could take Grayson and I'm not going to drive an hour there and an hour back and haul her and all of the things.
• 28:33
  Erin Gray: And how am I going to breastfeed, and just all of this stuff, right?
• 28:35
  Erin Gray: And this idea, this old school way of thinking that, okay, in order for you to work, you have to physically be here, like this almost lack of trust.
• 28:44
  Erin Gray: It's almost like I have to see you, right, I have to see you here, but how many people go to work and don't physically work?
• 28:52
  Erin Gray: They end up talking at the coffee area or whatever you know.
• 28:55
  Erin Gray: And so this, this almost sense of lack of trust in your employees, and that they, that they have agency over themselves, sovereignty over themselves, that they can get stuff done.
• 29:06
  Erin Gray: And it doesn't.
• 29:07
  Erin Gray: It doesn't lend to a, a cohesive work environment, right, because if you're thinking that I'm on this team and you're on that team, you know employer versus employee versus we're all on the same team Like, how can I help you?
• 29:23
  Erin Gray: Like, okay, you're going to go to your kids and then you're going to, it doesn't matter how long you're working.
• 29:29
  Erin Gray: It's just like, are you completing the, the tasks that you need to?
• 29:32
  Erin Gray: Whether you do it and that was, that was another thing that we would go around and around it's like it takes me such less time than someone else, right, but so it looks like I'm not.
• 29:41
  Erin Gray: Well, what are you doing?
• 29:42
  Erin Gray: Well, I've already done it, I've mastered it and I'm so celebrating the employees that are able to master things faster and take on more responsibility and things of that sort.
• 30:01
  Jacquiline Wagner: Sure, I totally agree.
• 30:03
  Jacquiline Wagner: All of that mindset is steeped in the feudal system and slavery.
• 30:09
  Jacquiline Wagner: Right, the origins of employment in the United States are harkened back to the feudal system of old and this unfortunate slavery system.
• 30:24
  Jacquiline Wagner: And, you're absolutely right, it's steeped in a lack of trust because the assumption is this person does not want to be here and they're here by force, yep, and so I can't trust that they're really going to get the work done because they don't want to be here in the first place.
• 30:42
  Jacquiline Wagner: But if you lift that assumption, which is steeped in the feudal system and slavery, if you lift that indentured servitude, if you lift that assumption that they don't want to be here because they're only here by force, well then you can start to cultivate trust with the employee and realize that they're just as invested in getting the job done and doing a good job and it's their profession.
• 31:12
  Jacquiline Wagner: Of course they want to.
• 31:15
  Jacquiline Wagner: If you start with that assumption, instead of they don't want to be here and they're here by force, that really flips the entire employment paradigm on its head.
• 31:26
  Jacquiline Wagner: Yeah, I do lecture about the origins of our employment paradigm in the United States and when people really wake up and realize oh my gosh, that's the, or those are the origins of our employment system.
• 31:46
  Jacquiline Wagner: Yeah, and employees have been working toward, you know, this different way of thinking for centuries, different way of thinking for centuries.
• 32:02
  Jacquiline Wagner: It really does help employers to see oh okay, I don't want to be any kind of part of that, so I'm going to try to do it this other way.
• 32:07
  Jacquiline Wagner: And I have yet to see an employer be disappointed from changing its paradigm.
• 32:15
  Erin Gray: It's interesting you say that, that it's almost like that awareness, you know, you, you started with talking about emotional intelligence, and part of emotional intelligence is awareness, and so not even being aware.
• 32:25
  Erin Gray: And what I also think, too, is how we treat others is typically how we treat ourselves.
• 32:31
  Erin Gray: So, from an employee, from an employer standpoint, if you are expecting an employee to to work late or to come in when they're sick, you're probably expecting that from yourself, and so how much we just continue to.
• 32:47
  Erin Gray: It's just like parenting, right, like we just continue these cycles because we aren't even aware.
• 32:51
  Erin Gray: Like wait, do I even let myself have a sleep in day?
• 32:55
  Erin Gray: Do I, you know?
• 32:56
  Erin Gray: Do I have to be throwing up in order to say I'm not coming to work, or can I just say, like my body's really tired today, I'm going to take it easy and I'm going to come back tomorrow?
• 33:03
  Jacquiline Wagner: or even a mental health day.
• 33:05
  Jacquiline Wagner: Yes, yep, we value our own mental health.
• 33:08
  Jacquiline Wagner: Where I just need it, I'll do the work but I just cannot drive in.
• 33:20
  Erin Gray: I just cannot.
• 33:20
  Erin Gray: Yeah, um, so do you want to do you want to switch a little bit into?
• 33:22
  Erin Gray: Because one of the things that we talked about Jacqueline and I talked before, we, you know, hit the record button of you know, I always want to come from that place of empowered, or love right Versus fear, and so, with you, kind of said, you give workshops with the, the slavery, and I want to, actually, I want to go back to that, because golden handcuffs right, like even that term of like golden handcuffs and like let's pay them really well.
• 33:49
  Erin Gray: And yes, we want to make good money because we have desires and we want to be able to live a certain way, but there comes a point in time where money doesn't, money is not the drive.
• 34:01
  Erin Gray: Where you're, you want to feel a part of something bigger.
• 34:04
  Erin Gray: Like that to me, I think, is such a bigger drive from an employee standpoint I'd be interested to hear your feedback on that versus like money is the thing that's going to keep people to stay.
• 34:14
  Erin Gray: Like comes back to that slavery mindset, I think.
• 34:19
  Jacquiline Wagner: Yes.
• 34:19
  Jacquiline Wagner: So one of the components of well-cultivated emotional intelligence is motivation.
• 34:26
  Jacquiline Wagner: Not just your own motivation of what makes you tick, but also the folks you lead.
• 34:30
  Jacquiline Wagner: So it's incumbent upon you as a leader, to figure out what is the motivator of the person I'm leading.
• 34:41
  Jacquiline Wagner: Not what I would want, but what they would want, right?
• 34:44
  Jacquiline Wagner: So some people do want money, and there's nothing wrong with that, right?
• 34:48
  Jacquiline Wagner: They just want money.
• 34:49
  Jacquiline Wagner: They don't care how they're treated, they just want the paycheck.
• 34:52
  Jacquiline Wagner: Other folks need an attagirl or praise in some fashion.
• 34:59
  Jacquiline Wagner: Other folks need that psychological safety.
• 35:03
  Jacquiline Wagner: They need to know that they can trust the person who's leading them, that they are trusted, that they have psychological safety and that they can bring their whole self to work.
• 35:15
  Jacquiline Wagner: They're not having to fake it or code switch or be somebody who they are not in order to be respected and valued at work.
• 35:26
  Jacquiline Wagner: So motivation means a lot of different things to different people and you have to honor if you want to be effective leader, you have to honor what you pick particular person you're leading.
• 35:43
  Jacquiline Wagner: Views as motivation, yeah.
• 35:46
  Erin Gray: Yeah, freedom was that when you said that I'm like, oh me, totally, yes, money for sure, but freedom, like that is ultimately like what I care about.
• 35:54
  Erin Gray: And so how much that felt, now that you're saying that, like, how much that felt restricted, like I was like, okay, then I'm going to quit, like you guys can figure it out, you know.
• 36:02
  Erin Gray: And how quickly that that changed, because it was like okay, no, no, no, we want you to be able to do and help us.
• 36:08
  Erin Gray: I'm like I'm not going to, like I want the, I want complete.
• 36:14
  Erin Gray: You know like just let me do my thing.
• 36:15
  Erin Gray: And here we go back to trust.
• 36:17
  Erin Gray: So, yeah, that's really interesting.
• 36:19
  Erin Gray: So, in terms of, if you're from an empowered, from an empowered place, a loving place, where do we get into litigation?
• 36:29
  Erin Gray: Cause you started off saying you know that's kind of what you were doing.
• 36:33
  Erin Gray: And then obviously we want to get to the root cause and we want to understand before it gets to that place and also recognize sometimes it does get to that place.
• 36:41
  Erin Gray: So, yeah, from a, from an empowered place, how do we support ourselves as employers and also employees if it gets to that point?
• 36:55
  Jacquiline Wagner: All right, so I'll do this in reverse.
• 36:58
  Jacquiline Wagner: So when an employee doesn't feel valued, seen and heard, when they feel like they can't bring their whole self to work, when they feel like they're not led in an emotionally intelligent way and there is an adverse employment action against them, they're left with no choice but to believe that that adverse employment action is because they belong to a protected category.
• 37:27
  Jacquiline Wagner: You know, they're a woman, a person of color, a member of the LGBTQ plus community, a particular religion.
• 37:35
  Jacquiline Wagner: They're left with no choice but to believe that the adverse employment action is because of that and not because their performance is poor.
• 37:44
  Jacquiline Wagner: You know, if you're properly leading someone, giving them guidance about where they're stubbing their toe or they're lacking, they have a gap in knowledge, or where they can perform better, if you're not doing that in a way that makes them feel safe, that they can make a mistake at work and that it will be supported and guided instead of punished, then the person is left with no choice.
• 38:14
  Jacquiline Wagner: Right?
• 38:14
  Jacquiline Wagner: But if you are supporting a person into improving every day and guiding them if they make a mistake, mentoring them into doing a better job with emotional intelligence, you're less likely, as an employer, to get sued when something goes south.
• 38:36
  Jacquiline Wagner: As an employer, to get sued when something goes south, it's really not fluff when you think of it that way.
• 38:44
  Jacquiline Wagner: So many employers think all of these soft skills are fluff.
• 38:48
  Jacquiline Wagner: And wouldn't that be nice.
• 38:49
  Jacquiline Wagner: I don't have the budget, what have you?
• 38:51
  Jacquiline Wagner: But then they wonder why there's babies coming downstream.
• 38:55
  Jacquiline Wagner: But then they wonder why there's babies coming downstream.
• 38:57
  Jacquiline Wagner: Right, the reason babies are coming downstream is because they're not taking care of those babies not falling into the water in the first place.
• 39:04
  Jacquiline Wagner: And I was saying there's kind of a top five of preventing the babies from falling in the water.
• 39:17
  Jacquiline Wagner: I think I mentioned emotional intelligence and employee handbooks.
• 39:19
  Jacquiline Wagner: I would also emphasize professional development training for training's sake.
• 39:25
  Jacquiline Wagner: I'm not talking about training your employees in the mechanics of doing their job.
• 39:35
  Jacquiline Wagner: Oh, we got this new software in.
• 39:37
  Jacquiline Wagner: We want everyone trained on how to use it.
• 39:39
  Jacquiline Wagner: That's not what I'm talking about.
• 39:41
  Jacquiline Wagner: I'm talking about true professional development where you're teaching things like emotional intelligence, how to test yourself, how to cultivate, how to reassess yourself.
• 39:54
  Jacquiline Wagner: Right, that that is an expectation of performance for a leader.
• 39:59
  Jacquiline Wagner: Doing these things, putting these things in place in training, is very effective.
• 40:08
  Jacquiline Wagner: So things you can do are you know, not just what's legally required, you know the prevention of harassment or something like that, prevention of workplace violence.
• 40:19
  Jacquiline Wagner: You know how to stay safe at work, et cetera.
• 40:23
  Jacquiline Wagner: But how do you cultivate psychological safety?
• 40:30
  Jacquiline Wagner: Hearing from your employees, taking a survey in advance of the training, hearing from your employees what they think, how they feel, giving the training on cultivating emotional intelligence to the leadership and then taking, you know, maybe six months later, assessing again, so using metrics to measure where you were, where you are and where you want to go.
• 40:59
  Jacquiline Wagner: And then the next thing I would recommend employers do is launch investigations, not just when it's legally required, whenever there is bad behavior of any sort, launching an investigation about that bad behavior to nip it in the bud.
• 41:18
  Jacquiline Wagner: That is a very effective way to ensure that your employees will feel safe that they can bring a gripe, whether it be, you know, something legally recognized or just so-and-so doesn't seem to like me right.
• 41:39
  Jacquiline Wagner: When an employee is empowered that their concerns will be heard vis-a-vis an investigation, that is a great way to prevent a lawsuit from happening.
• 41:52
  Jacquiline Wagner: When the employee's gripe was taken seriously and investigated and then documented and a resolution is communicated to the employee.
• 42:03
  Jacquiline Wagner: Especially if you're going to make a change to the way you're doing things, communicating that to the employee.
• 42:10
  Jacquiline Wagner: That's a huge impact on preventing litigation.
• 42:17
  Jacquiline Wagner: And then the fifth way I would recommend to prevent litigation from happening, or at least reduce the risk I should say, is by having some sort of neutral conflict resolution program.
• 42:31
  Jacquiline Wagner: For when you have a personality conflict among your employees, right, so many times things blow up out of proportion because they were not nipped in the bud initially.
• 42:44
  Jacquiline Wagner: So two employees not getting along they're at the same level, there's a personality conflict, the work isn't getting done because there's a disconnect in the flow of information.
• 42:58
  Jacquiline Wagner: And so addressing that, where employee A and employee B can hear each other through the lens of a neutral party who doesn't know the personalities, and say you know, this is what so-and-so is saying, did I get you right?
• 43:16
  Jacquiline Wagner: Yes, this is what so-and-so is saying.
• 43:17
  Jacquiline Wagner: Did I get you right?
• 43:17
  Jacquiline Wagner: Yes, this is what so-and-so is saying, Did I get you right?
• 43:20
  Jacquiline Wagner: Yes, can you see how it would make them feel?
• 43:22
  Jacquiline Wagner: Can you see how it would make them feel?
• 43:24
  Jacquiline Wagner: And addressing that as you go along makes a huge impact on psychological safety and ensuring that an employee feels valued, seen and heard.
• 43:40
  Erin Gray: This is brilliant.
• 43:41
  Erin Gray: And it goes back.
• 43:42
  Erin Gray: I mean, we've talked about it, you know so much here, but it's like, what is the root cause?
• 43:47
  Erin Gray: Like an emotional intelligence.
• 43:49
  Erin Gray: I wrote down, you know, like, are we willing to have hard conversations?
• 43:54
  Erin Gray: Like you have to think about, like from a self-awareness are you okay going in and having a conversation with the employee?
• 44:00
  Erin Gray: A lot of times we aren't okay with having hard conversations, right, Like we have so many stories within ourselves of, like, what does that make me mean?
• 44:07
  Erin Gray: What does that mean about me?
• 44:08
  Erin Gray: Like all of this stuff.
• 44:09
  Erin Gray: And so we run that through the filter versus this is what so-and-so is performance, or this is what they have done, this is what the standards are, how can we support them?
• 44:20
  Erin Gray: How can we help them.
• 44:21
  Erin Gray: And I wrote down too it's like it.
• 44:23
  Erin Gray: This takes air quotes, this takes time, and so many of us right, like I mean I think a large part of the world's nervous system is not in a creative state.
• 44:33
  Erin Gray: It is very much in survival based.
• 44:36
  Erin Gray: Like the nervous system is at that.
• 44:39
  Erin Gray: Yeah, so I call it survival.
• 44:43
  Erin Gray: It's just like you're you're in that fight or flight, right, like you aren't in a very relaxed, calm state.
• 44:49
  Erin Gray: And so if you are always having to think you have to rush to the next thing and I wrote down slowing down, like how much are we actually slowing down and pausing and thinking where we are?
• 45:01
  Erin Gray: Is this going to get us to where we want to go?
• 45:03
  Erin Gray: And sometimes we actually have to go a little bit.
• 45:06
  Erin Gray: You know, the saying is like slow down to speed up.
• 45:09
  Erin Gray: It's so true Like I haven't found an example of where that hasn't actually been the case.
• 45:14
  Erin Gray: So, slowing down and actually asking, like you know, how are things going?
• 45:19
  Erin Gray: Have you read the book I think it's called Infinite Game by Simon Sinek?
• 45:23
  Jacquiline Wagner: No, I'm going to write that down.
• 45:25
  Erin Gray: Probably would really love it.
• 45:26
  Erin Gray: It talks about basically an infinite game or a finite game.
• 45:30
  Erin Gray: And when you said something about the employees and being heard and things of that sort, it's like the infinite game is not just like what is our goals in our profit this year?
• 45:42
  Erin Gray: We're talking legacy, we're talking generations to come and like how many business owners think from a visionary legend, you know, like legacy place versus what do we make in this this year?
• 45:54
  Erin Gray: What are we making in the next five years?
• 45:56
  Erin Gray: We're talking generations of of people that are going to work for our company and things of that sort.
• 46:01
  Erin Gray: And and I think that when you put those glasses on and when you think about like what are we actually trying to create here, not just in a short term, sometimes it helps us make that that switch.
• 46:15
  Erin Gray: I mean there's all of these other things involved.
• 46:16
  Erin Gray: Sometimes it helps us make that that switch.
• 46:18
  Erin Gray: I mean there's all of these other things involved, you know.
• 46:20
  Erin Gray: But but you know, like I think sometimes we're so short sighted versus no, like how does this actually the ripple effect?
• 46:25
  Erin Gray: You know you and I talked about like the water drop effect and you can explain that.
• 46:28
  Erin Gray: But that is like when you sit down with one employee and they realize, like, listen, this, this type of behavior, this nitpickiness, is not tolerated in our culture.
• 46:36
  Erin Gray: This is not how we treat humans.
• 46:42
  Erin Gray: That spreads out to the rest of the company, right, and the longer that you let that fester and go on, the more that people realize okay, I'm not supported, it's here.
• 46:47
  Jacquiline Wagner: We go back to like it's not what you say, it's what you're doing, it's how you're being, that's right, yeah, so the the water drop effect is, you know, one drop of water seems innocuous, seems inconsequential, but as it ripples out and impacts the rest of the organization, you see that that one drop of water was actually hugely impactful.
• 47:12
  Jacquiline Wagner: So, all of these mechanisms that you put in place, you can either have a negative drop of water rippling out to your workforce or a positive drop rippling out to your workforce.
• 47:26
  Jacquiline Wagner: It's really the employer's choice of what kind of organization they want to be.
• 47:30
  Jacquiline Wagner: Some organizations do just fine being, you know, draconian, but I posture to guess that they would be even more productive if they treated employees better.
• 47:45
  Erin Gray: Yeah, it's like long term, like it might seem like it's working, because I think I think a lot of people can be like well, it's working, yeah, but for how long?
• 47:52
  Erin Gray: How long can you sustain it from that type of vibration, you know?
• 47:54
  Erin Gray: And the younger the workforce becomes, for how long?
• 47:55
  Erin Gray: How long can you sustain it from that type of vibration, you know?
• 47:57
  Jacquiline Wagner: And the younger the workforce becomes well I should say, the longer, the farther back we go in generations of the workforce.
• 48:07
  Jacquiline Wagner: So things that were important to my father's generation at work not important to the younger generation that's just entering the workforce, and so you have to evaluate who's my workforce and you have to come along with the times.
• 48:23
  Jacquiline Wagner: You can't just stay where you were 30 years ago and expect your organization to continue to grow and prosper.
• 48:34
  Erin Gray: Yeah, that's like that old school mentality of like well, this is the way we're doing it, like it or not?
• 48:38
  Erin Gray: Right, that's right.
• 48:39
  Erin Gray: Well, what are you breeding within that?
• 48:42
  Erin Gray: You know you're not going to attract new talent.
• 48:45
  Erin Gray: You're not going to attract, you know, people that think outside the box or whatever it might be, because they aren't at the same vibrational level that you are Right, and so they're not going to hang around.
• 48:56
  Jacquiline Wagner: That's right.
• 48:57
  Jacquiline Wagner: Yeah, that's right.
• 48:59
  Erin Gray: Do you have anything else that maybe we haven't talked about, that you do want to share?
• 49:02
  Jacquiline Wagner: Um, I think that I.
• 49:09
  Jacquiline Wagner: What I do want to say is none of these mechanisms by themselves are going to do the trick.
• 49:17
  Jacquiline Wagner: It all has to be in unison, ecumenically.
• 49:22
  Jacquiline Wagner: All of those mechanisms piece together symbiotically to make an organization run in the way we're talking about.
• 49:35
  Jacquiline Wagner: So you can't say well, I gave one training and it didn't work, that's not it.
• 49:41
  Jacquiline Wagner: You have to think of it as the ripple effect.
• 49:43
  Jacquiline Wagner: You gave one training, then you also launched a new employee handbook.
• 49:47
  Jacquiline Wagner: Sally's putting a fish in the microwave and it's making Mary mad.
• 49:52
  Jacquiline Wagner: Let's bring Sally and Mary together to talk about it.
• 49:55
  Jacquiline Wagner: You know, piece by piece, inch by inch, drop by drop, that's, uh, how you change the culture and climate of an organization that makes me laugh because it's like I don't think I'd complain about that, but I totally know the fish.
• 50:14
  Erin Gray: But you know we laugh about this, but it is, at the basis, as humans, we want to be seen and heard, Right, and so it seems.
• 50:24
  Erin Gray: So, it could seem so superficial to an employer, but it's not about the fish, right?
• 50:33
  Erin Gray: It's about hey, I'm saying something that's bothering me and you're not.
• 50:38
  Erin Gray: It feels to me as if you don't care and you're not listening to me.
• 50:42
  Erin Gray: Like that's really what the message is is being relayed.
• 50:46
  Erin Gray: You know, not so much.
• 50:48
  Erin Gray: I mean, yeah, the fish might stink, but also it's like you're not hearing me, You're not, you're not supporting me.
• 50:53
  Erin Gray: And so, coming back to and, and it sounds simple, it's not easy, but like, how do we want to be treated?
• 51:01
  Erin Gray: Like, how, like, as a human, how do we want to be treated?
• 51:05
  Erin Gray: And are we actually treating our people that way?
• 51:10
  Erin Gray: And you know, like I've always, like you know, as I grow, like I want, I want the people that work with me not not even for me, Right, Like, work with me, like they feel so valued, so fun.
• 51:22
  Erin Gray: It's like, what kind of culture do you want to create?
• 51:27
  Erin Gray: And having that, having that idea right.
• 51:29
  Erin Gray: Like I always say like won the lottery, but like, even if you do win the lottery, like nothing's going to bring you that feeling, but just that idea of like I feel so grateful and so lucky that I get to work with this person, Like that's what I want them to feel, like you know that it's, and it doesn't have to be miserable to get the job done.
• 51:45
  Jacquiline Wagner: In fact, it's more impactful, it's more productive to be in a harmonious environment.
• 51:52
  Erin Gray: Yeah, very much so I mean, I talk a lot about energy and vibration and things of that sort, and it's like it's a lot more fun and you can have.
• 52:00
  Erin Gray: I mean, does it work or has it worked?
• 52:02
  Erin Gray: Here we go back to like your dad and my dad, did it work that way?
• 52:06
  Erin Gray: Yes, but is it more fun?
• 52:08
  Erin Gray: And could we actually, you know, do a lot more things and more profit and all that if we're having fun and we're, you know, everybody's supporting each other?
• 52:17
  Erin Gray: probably, yes, you know, and so just because it did work that way, it doesn't mean it needs to continue, or that is the best or correct way.
• 52:24
  Erin Gray: No, that's right.
• 52:26
  Jacquiline Wagner: Yeah, I totally agree, yeah.
• 52:28
  Erin Gray: So thank you so much, jacqueline.
• 52:29
  Erin Gray: Where can people find you learn more about you?
• 52:30
  Erin Gray: I'll put all this in the show notes, but just for people that are listening watching notes, but just for people that are listening, watching Sure, my website is wagnerhrcom.
• 52:38
  Erin Gray: Wagner is W-A-G-N-E-R, h-r as in human resources, wagnerhrcom.
• 52:48
  Erin Gray: Perfect, okay, I'll put it in the show notes.
• 52:49
  Erin Gray: Thank you, jacqueline, I appreciate it, thank you.
• 52:51
  Erin Gray: Erin, I had a great time.